SG

aul
oodman
1907–1996

T
here are certain players associated with each instrument
who become the models to which all others are compared.
Saul Goodman set that standard for timpani performance.
Born in Brooklyn, Goodman’s first exposure to percussion came at
the age of eleven when he joined a Boy Scout drum-and-bugle corps.
Three years later, he began his study of timpani, and at the age of
nineteen, became a member of the New York Philharmonic, where he
remained for forty-six years. During those years he worked with such
conductors as Toscanini, Mengleberg and Bernstein, and composers
including Stravinsky, Bartók and Hindemith. He also taught at the
Juilliard School of Music for forty-one years, and in addition to teaching
many of today’s leading timpanists, he also worked with several of the
top jazz drummers.
The following interview was conducted in the summer of 1981, after
Goodman retired from full-time teaching at Juilliard. We met at his
home in Yonkers, New York as he was preparing to sell that house and
move to Florida. Seated in his basement studio, which contained the
timpani he had used with the New York Philharmonic, and surrounded
by photographs of everyone from Pierre Monteux to Gene Krupa, we
began discussing his first introduction to timpani.

6 PERCUSSIVE NOTES • JUNE 1996

SAUL GOODMAN: One Saturday night, when I was
about fourteen years old, I was taking a walk and I
passed Commercial High School in Brooklyn. It
was a warm evening in October, and the doors
were open. I could hear music coming out of the
auditorium, so I went to the box office, asking the
cashier if I could get in for 25 cents. “You can just
walk in,” she said, and so I did. The New York
RICK MATTINGLY

Philharmonic was in the middle of the last move-

ment of the Tchaikovsky 4th Symphony, which
has, of course, an elaborate timpani part. The
timpani immediately attracted me. Until then, I
had never heard timpani. When the concert was
over, I went to the timpanist and asked him if he I was fortunate enough to have a job in a movie Goodman with his
would give me lessons. He agreed to, and that was theater playing drumset, xylophone, timpani and suspended-shell snare drum
the beginning of my study of timpani. He taught providing sound effects. You know what drummers
me for two dollars a lesson. for the films had to do in the pit in those days—that
was the kind of training that just doesn’t exist
RICK MATTINGLY: This was Alfred Friese? today. You had a big, thick book of music, and you
GOODMAN: Yes. I took my lessons in the sub-base- would play eight bars of one piece, sixteen bars of
ment of Carnegie Hall, and was introduced to another, thirty-two bars of another one, and you
what was going on in all of the concerts—not only were always going from one instrument to another.
symphonic music, but chamber music and recit- That was at the end of the silent-film days. I went
als of all kinds. I became a regular frequenter of back to school and worked at the theaters. I was
Carnegie Hall concerts. This comprised the main able to earn my living and pay my school tuition.
part of my education. When I was nineteen years old, I booked a job at
Good music always fascinated me. Having learned Newport. In those days, I played at the Newport
how to read, I started playing with quite a few Casino, a very luxurious private club for the wealthy.
amateur groups, among them, the National Or- There was a fifteen-piece orchestra, and strangely
chestra Society, which is still in existence. I also enough, we played every morning at ten o’clock in
played in movie theaters, substituting for different the open air—when it didn’t rain—to entertain
people. When I was sixteen, I got into what was people who were playing tennis nearby. We used to
known as the City Symphony—not as a timpanist, have a concert on Sunday evening for the general
but as a percussionist. That was the first profes- public. In addition to that, we played dance jobs in
sional group I played with. Their season lasted the different wealthy homes.
twenty weeks. I was in high school at the time, so I At this time, I didn’t know what was going on in Interviewed
left school to go into that orchestra. When the sea- New York, but my teacher had retired, and timpa-
son finished, I had saved up enough money to en- nists were auditioning for the New York Philhar- by Rick
able me to go to college. After completing high monic. One of them was a fellow named Roland
school, I did just that. Wagner, who was timpanist with the San Francisco Mattingly
PERCUSSIVE NOTES • JUNE 1996 7
 very capable player. When it came time to fill the
timpani position, they decided to accept me.
My first rehearsal was with Willem Mengelberg,
a famous Dutch conductor. The first piece I played
with him was the Beethoven 8th Symphony. Evi-
dently not many timpani players were very profi-
cient in the cross-hammering in the last movement.
I played it the way it should be played, and
Mengelberg recognized my capabilities. Only then,
at the intermission of the rehearsal, did the man-
ager introduce me to Mengelberg, who looked at
me, and with his heavy Dutch accent, said, “I t’ink
you be all right.” So I was all right for forty-six
years. They told me it was going to be a steady job!

Gene Krupa and Symphony. He had come to New York that summer MATTINGLY: How many years did you teach at
Saul Goodman in an attempt to intimidate the San Francisco Juilliard?
Symphony into raising his salary. The New York GOODMAN: I taught at Juilliard for forty-one years.
Philharmonic didn’t know this. Because he was a During those years, I trained many of the outstand-
very competent player, he was offered the position. ing percussionists, not only of this country, but of a
He immediately made this known to the San Fran- good part of the world. These students have really
cisco orchestra, who then granted him his increase carried my message of technique and musicianship
in salary. So he returned to the West Coast. as related to percussion wherever they’ve gone.
Then the Philharmonic tried out another timpa- Among them are some of the really great leading
nist, but he didn’t make good. In September, I had ones: people like Vic Firth in the Boston Symphony,
returned to New York after playing in Newport all Gerry Carlyss of the Philadelphia Orchestra, Roland
summer, and one day I got a call from the princi- Kohloff, who took my place in the New York Phil-
pal percussionist of the Philharmonic. He said, harmonic, Rick Holmes in the St. Louis Symphony,
“How would you like to play timpani with the New Eugene Espino in the Cincinnati Orchestra, Barry
York Philharmonic?” I said, “Are you kidding?” He Jekowski in the San Francisco Symphony, Bill Kraft
said, “No, I really mean it.” This was on a Satur- in the Los Angeles Symphony and many others.
day. He said, “Come down to the business office on Not many people know this, but I also had the
Monday. Mr. Judson, the manager, wants to see exhilarating experience of teaching some of the
you.” So I went down and we had a short conversa- great jazz drummers—Gene Krupa, Louie Bellson
tion, and he handed me a contract. It was a twenty- and Cozy Cole among them. Gene lived near me
five-week season, and I got a hundred dollars a in Yonkers. I used to go to his house and teach
week, which I thought was a stupendous amount him. I taught Louie Bellson, too. Let me tell you a
of money in those days. story about Louie.
I had an association with Benny Goodman. We
MATTINGLY: And all you had was a conversation? were good friends and we worked together when we
GOODMAN: Don’t think it went as quickly as that— played radio dates, which was before he organized
that the audition went by the boards. Actually, his first band. He called me one day and said, “I’ve
what happened was, the personnel manager of the got a great drummer!” After Krupa left Goodman’s
orchestra used to watch me taking lessons in the band, Benny was never satisfied with a drummer.
basement of Carnegie Hall. He had an idea of how I He kept firing one after another. But he was raving
could play the timpani. Several times during the about this kid. “I wish you’d come down and hear
course of the preceding two or three years, I had him,” he said. Benny was playing at the New Yorker
been called on to play with the Philharmonic. Usual- hotel on 34th Street, just two blocks from Pennsyl-
ly it was when somebody took sick, and so I had to vania Station. It so happened that the Philhar-
play without a rehearsal. Once, I had to do monic was giving a concert that night in Philadel-
Stravinsky’s Petrouchka suite under Toscanini, phia. So I said to Benny, “Okay. I have to go to
practically reading the snare and other percussion Philadelphia and we’re returning to New York about
parts at sight. If I had made any mistakes, he midnight. It will be late, but I’ll be there.”
would have exploded. That was another feather in So I went there to see Benny and listen to Louie
my cap. It impressed the management that I was a Bellson. They played a set, and Benny called me

8 PERCUSSIVE NOTES • JUNE 1996

over after they finished and said, “What do you So I wrote exercises 20 and 21 in my timpani book
think of the kid?” I said, “I think he’s terrific.” just to teach this student how to do the cross-
Benny said, “You know, what he needs is somebody hammering. A lot of the exercises in my book were
like you to teach him.” I said, “Okay. Send him up to written with the idea of dynamic control in mind. I
Juilliard.” So I taught him for about six months, wanted to make the exercises not only technically
and Benny fired him! Then, of course, Louie went instructive, but also musically enlightening, which
out on his own. Louie became a damn good com- is very important.
poser. He’s a wonderful arranger too. He’s really a The trouble with most percussion people is that
first-class musician, in addition to being a great they don’t think of what they’re doing in a musical
percussionist. sense, whereas if you played piano or violin or cello
Cozy Cole came to me when he was the first or whatever, you would be required to continually
black drummer to get on the staff of a major radio keep this in mind. Another thing that is often ne-
station. This was during World War II. He played glected is the tone quality that you can produce, not
with a conductor named Raymond Scott, who con- only from timpani, but also from the snare drum
ducted the group at CBS. Cozy took a few lessons and from many of the other percussion instruments.
from me and said, “I’d like to go to Juilliard.” This And then there’s an important element of balance.
took courage for a man his age. After all, he was How do you balance with different ensembles? Do
about thirty-eight or thirty-nine years old, and he you just go in there and knock the devil out of
wanted to go to school! I don’t think he’d had too something or do you listen for the acoustical back-
much schooling. But he went to Juilliard and did ground of what you’re playing and try to adjust
very well. I taught him there for about three years. your balance so you have the proper sound and
During the time he went to Juilliard, he was you’re well coordinated with the group you’re play-
still playing at CBS with Raymond Scott. One day ing with? Those are the important elements, I think,
Cozy came in and said, “Raymond wants to know if of adjusting yourself to percussion instruments.
you’ll write a piece just for you and me.” That’s
how I came to write Timpianna, and we played it MATTINGLY: For many years, you ran the per-
together on CBS radio. cussion ensemble at Juilliard. Could you tell
There seems to have been a reason for every me about that?
piece I wrote. Most composers create because they GOODMAN: I don’t know the history of percussion
are compelled to: it’s what makes the artist, I sup- ensemble, but I started an ensemble at Juilliard in
pose. But in my case, it was always an occasion that 1944, so I think I was one of the first. Then I offered
prompted me to write something. a prize for the best percussion composition, because
One occasion was the time I taught at Deerwood there was very little music for percussion ensemble
Music Camp at Saranac Lake. We had quite an then. Varèse asked me to perform Ionization at the
extensive modern dance department. The head of school, but I had to say no because we weren’t ready
the dance department said to me one day, “Why for it. In later years I did perform it and it always
don’t I get my group to dance for you and you can proved a huge success.
write a piece to their movements.” I said, “Let’s do
it the other way; I’ll write the piece and then you MATTINGLY: Did someone ask you to put together a
can dance to it.” So that’s what we did. It’s called timpani book, or was it your own idea?
Ballad for the Dance. It became very popular, and GOODMAN: My wife. I had been handwriting all
I’m very happy about that. these exercises for my students, and finally my wife
The dance department at Juilliard also asked said, “You know, you should get all of these things
me to write a piece for them, so I wrote a piece together in the form of a book.” She kept after me
called Proliferation Suite, which was performed at and really impelled me to get the book out.
a Juilliard dance recital about three years ago,
with me conducting. I scored it for the usual per- MATTINGLY: How did you get in the stick business?
cussion: marimba, xylophone, glock, chimes, tim- GOODMAN: From the very beginning of my career, I
pani, several snare drums, and I also used a harp made my own sticks because I didn’t like the com-
and a string bass. I incorporated Timpianna into mercial sticks that were available. Of course, there
the suite, because the choreography seemed to weren’t too many good sticks available then like
suggest a jazz piece. there are today. You were practically forced to make
Most of the things I’ve written have been to your own sticks in those days if you had a prestige
educate my students. For instance, I had a student position like I had. So I used to have three or four
who was having problems with cross-hammering. pair at a time turned by a local wood turner.

PERCUSSIVE NOTES • JUNE 1996 9

 When I started teaching heavily, my students timpani trunks, but up to that point, I had never
liked my sticks and I saw the opportunity for mak- used them. It proved to be just wonderful! I’ll never
ing a little extra money. You see, the symphony forget—that night we played the Shostakovich 5th
seasons in those days were very short—twenty- Symphony. I made a recording of that piece with
eight weeks or thirty at the most with maybe six Bernstein, using the plastic head. So from that
or eight weeks in the summer. So I welcomed the time on, I was convinced that the plastic head was
additional income. Eventually I went into snare here to stay.
drum sticks, and I built up a very lucrative busi- The plastic head has made the timpanist’s life
ness. I think I was one of the first players to much more comfortable. I used calfskin heads
market his own sticks. Others followed: Vic Firth, through my whole playing life. In the last eight
Fred Hinger, to name a few, and now there are years or so of my playing, I had two sets of drums—
several. It’s a good idea because everybody has his one with plastic heads and one with calfskin. I used
own idea about sticks. I don’t say that my stick is the plastic heads, of course, for outdoor playing.
the only stick to use—not by any means. But I But prior to 1959, I used calfskin exclusively. I had
think it has proven itself. an electrical device called a Dampchaser that was
I designed it with a definite purpose in mind— mounted inside the drum. It’s a circular tube with
mainly for the different pieces in the repertoire I an electrical element on the inside, and it generates
play. For the opening of the Brahms 1st I use the about 100 watts of heat. That enabled me to play on
cartwheel stick on the C-natural to get a big, beau- calfskin heads under extremely damp conditions. It
tiful tone without any real impact sound. I de- wasn’t always successful because if you put too
signed my little green sticks for the Scherzo of the much heat on, it destroyed the tone quality of the
Midsummer Night’s Dream, of Mendelssohn. head. With about 50% humidity, it worked very
well and you could get a reasonably good sound. For
MATTINGLY: Someone told me that the Calato sticks are twenty-eight years, I played outdoors on calfskin
a little bit lighter than the ones you originally made. heads. In fact, sometimes when I played opera or
GOODMAN: Not really. Don’t forget, the density of ballet, I would have to set up on the bare ground,
wood varies. The sticks are made with an auto- at night! All of the dampness came up from the
matic lathe. In any automatic lathe there might be earth. The only way I surmounted that problem
some very slight variation in the turning. The was by using small-diameter drums, so that I
reason for that is the different quality of the same wouldn’t have to stretch the heads so much for the
species of wood—in this case, rock maple. The higher notes. I once played the Brahms 1st on a
knife may cut a little deeper into a softer piece of very humid night with a 23" and 25" drum. It was
maple than it would into a tougher piece. That the only way I could do it.
accounts for the very slight variations in the thick- With the stuff that’s being written for timpani
ness of the sticks. But I think Calato is doing a today, calfskin heads wouldn’t last two days. You
beautiful job. The thread is beautiful and the sew- have to be very careful with them. But if you could
ing is done by the same person that did my work. I listen off to a distance to a plastic head and a fine
don’t think any mass-produced article has any calfskin head, and listen to them being played by a
better accuracy than Calato’s work. good player who is using the proper sticks, there
would be no comparison whatsoever. The good
MATTINGLY: Do you remember the first time you calfskin would obviously sound warmer. But it’s
played on a plastic head? always a hazardous practice to use calfskin because
GOODMAN: I sure do! I’ll tell you the experience I you never know what conditions to expect.
had. I first saw the plastic head in 1959 when the
New York Philharmonic was making a grand tour MATTINGLY: You also make your own timpani. How
of Europe that included Russia. The orchestra had did you get involved in that?
just played in Kiev, and was travelling to Moscow. GOODMAN: My building these drums goes back to
My timpani were transported in an open truck and the summer of ’42, when the Philharmonic was
it started to rain heavily. We got to the hotel and I playing at Lewisohn Stadium. The stagehands were
thought to myself, “I better get to that hall and look supposed to remove the drums from the stage after
at my drums.” The trunk for the 25" kettle wasn’t the rehearsal and put them in a storeroom, but
exactly watertight, and the rain had leaked in and they left the drums on the stage, unprotected. About
soaked the hell out of the calf head. It was useless six o’clock that evening, there was a tremendous
for the concert that night. I said, “Here’s where I try thunderstorm and the stage was struck by light-
the plastic head.” I had plastic heads in one of my ning. The two steel girders that held up the roof of

10 PERCUSSIVE NOTES • JUNE 1996

 Goodman performing the
Bartók Sonata for Two
Pianos and Percussion at
PASIC ’77 in Knoxville,
Tennessee. Goodman
performed the U.S.
première of this same piece
on November 3, 1940.

the stage collapsed, and these girders, which MATTINGLY: What are your thoughts on the practice
weighed about five tons each, folded up over my of altering timpani parts?
timpani and flattened them out like pancakes. GOODMAN: I’ve done that very often. Of course, the
So there I was, with a war in progress and reason composers of the 19th century didn’t bother
Dresden drums unavailable. I begged some mate- changing the pitch was that the mechanical type
rials from a few friends who had a metal busi- timpani necessary for those changes didn’t exist. If
ness—I practically bootlegged the stuff—and we they started a piece in F and B-flat, it remained in
built a set of timpani to replace the set that had F and B-flat unless there was a long period of time
been destroyed. I had to use bronze because alu- to change to another pitch.
minum was impossible to obtain. The bronze cast- Let me tell you something about revising a part.
ings were terribly heavy, and it wasn’t until after Don’t forget that when these pieces were written,
the war was over that the main castings could be people got used to listening to the wrong notes. I
made of a much lighter metal. I experimented remember once playing the overture from the Mid-
with several alloys of aluminum but none of them summer Night’s Dream with Toscanini. In the tran-
seemed to work. Finally, I hit on an alloy that sitional section the key goes to F-sharp major, but
really did the job and could take the tremendous the timpani part is still using B-natural and E-
tension of those drums. Of course, that alloy re- natural, which are wrong notes. So I changed the
mains my secret. note once and Toscanini stopped and said, “Don’t
The idea of the chain drum came to me acciden- change the note. I want it to sound as Mendelssohn
tally. In the early ’30s I had brought some cable heard it, with the wrong note.”
drums over from Germany and used them in addi- There was another instance regarding historical
tion to the pedal drums. Dick Horowitz, timpanist accuracy. I remember once playing Symphony 39 by
with the Metropolitan Opera and a former student Mozart with Bruno Walter, one of the greatest Mo-
of mine, asked me if I would build some cable drums zart conductors of this century. The work starts
for him. I looked at the cable drums and thought, with what I always thought should be a full, reso-
“How can I duplicate this?” So then I thought, “Why nant sounding B-flat and E-flat. But Walter said, “I
don’t we use a chain?” The cable was connected by want it to sound like the old timpani.” The drums
turnbuckles and could only travel between the two he heard when he was young did not have the
pulleys that actually received the cable ends, thus resonance of modern drums. I had to muffle the
restricting the distance between the pulleys. With a drums to get the sound he wanted.
chain, you would have endless tensioning possibili- Another aspect of this changing business: It
ties. My chain drum was patented in 1952—the doesn’t always follow that if you change a note to
first application of a chain to a musical instrument. what is harmonically correct in the chord, it’s
necessarily going to sound good. By using the
MATTINGLY: Didn’t you also build a few snare drums? “right” note, you might alter the orchestral color
GOODMAN: I made about a dozen of them. It’s a by changing the inversion of the chord that the
suspended-shell snare drum, based on the design of composer was trying to produce at that time.
the Dresden suspended-shell timpani. The vibra- Even though you do play the “right” note, in many
tion is really sustained and the ease of playing is cases it doesn’t work. PN
enhanced by the fact that the vibration is not stifled,
because nothing is screwed into the shell.
Thanks to Modern Drummer Publications for per-
MATTINGLY: Could you suggest any guidelines for mission to reprint the Goodman interview.
writing an effective timpani part?
GOODMAN: Study Stravinsky, Mahler or Richard
Strauss, who have composed exemplary parts for
the instrument.

PERCUSSIVE NOTES • JUNE 1996 11