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Chomsky still rages over US bombing of Cambodia could have easily brought them to intellectual readers, few of whom it always going to be like George Are future relationships between Do you think Henry Kissinger

Henry Kissinger would certainly an end; in Cambodia they could do

little or nothing – as noted, there was
scarcely even a suggestion – and the
even remember it.

Should the perpetrators of genocide

Orwell’s Animal Farm?
It is worth remembering that Marx
was primarily a theorist of capitalism,
states more likely to feature
pragmatic, economic-based
decisions and policies, perhaps
ought to be brought to trial for
the bombing of Cambodia?  Do
you think the Khmer Rouge would

be brought to trial for his role in enemy’s atrocities could be and were
exploited to justify our own.
We showed that in both cases there
in Cambodia be tried and executed or
imprisoned?  Why?
 I am opposed to the death penalty,
and said little about post-capitalist
societies. But it was clear that for
him, as for the socialist movements
regardless of their crimes and style
of government, or is the future more
likely to feature struggles between
have remained a marginal force
and never taken power had the US
bombing of Cambodia never taken

the bombing, if the world were was massive deceit in the US and
the West, but in opposite directions:
In the case of East Timor, where
but I think they should receive fair
trials and imprisonment.  No one
asks that question about Nixon and
generally, a core principle was control
by working people over production,
and popular control of other aspects
ideologies like we saw in the Cold
War, at least on the surface?
Cold War conflicts were not
place?  Does the US owe Cambodia
an apology for the bombing?
In a world governed by justice, not

governed by justice, not forces the crimes could have easily been
terminated, they were suppressed
or denied; in the case of Cambodia,
Kissinger, or about the rich and
powerful generally.
of life. There were significant
movements in this direction in Russia
primarily ideological.  If we look
at the events of the Cold War, not
the rhetorical framework, we
forces, Kissinger would certainly
be brought to trial, not just for his
hideous crimes in Cambodia. These,

The historic enmity between Vietnam

where nothing could be done, the see that the Cold War provided a as I mentioned earlier, contributed
Stuart Alan Becker psychology, behaviour and a whole second world war in 1945. fabrication and lies would, literally, framework for the US to use force to the rise of the Khmer Rouge, while
range of studies of the human He was one of the intellectual have impressed Stalin.
and China goes back a millennium. In and other means to control its killing unknown numbers of people

P
HILOSOPHER and linguist mind. Chomsky has at least 36 forces behind the antiwar What we wrote about East Timor vast domains, and its domestic and leaving vast destruction. The
Noam Chomsky says the honorary doctor’s degrees, two of movement in the US during the was entirely ignored (except in 1978-79, Cambodia was a Chinese ally and population as well, appealing to the effects were so severe that high US
Vietnam was linked to the Russians....
United States owes Cambodia the most recent of which were given 1960s and early 1970s. Australia), along with the rest of what alleged threat of a powerful enemy; officials predicted that a million
not only an apology but massive by universities in China, where Chomsky is also famous for his we wrote about US crimes and how and that the Russians did much the would die under the best of
reparations for the B-52 bombing he travelled earlier this year to criticism of the foreign policies of they were covered up. same in their own much smaller circumstances after the war ended
campaign called Operation Menu acknowledge the accolades. states, especially the US, where he What we wrote about Cambodia, Why do you think China supported after the February 1917 overthrow of domains. In this respect the Cold in 1975, and that two years of virtual
that killed up to a million people. The Chomsky approach to lives and has nationality. in contrast, elicited huge outrage and the Khmer Rouge and then the old regime, but as soon as Lenin War was in part a tacit compact slave labour would be required to at
The campaign lasted from March science and mind studies takes He helps people practise what he a new flood of lies, as we discussed attacked North Vietnam after the and the Bolsheviks took power they between the major and the minor least partially restore a functioning
18, 1969, to May 26, 1970, destroyed the view that humans are given calls “intellectual self-defence” by in our 1988 book. And it continues.  Vietnamese invaded Cambodia in were smashed. By this fundamental superpower. How the future will society in Cambodia. The US owes
an estimated 1,000 towns and remarkable genetic endowments by pointing out the difference between In general, it is extremely important 1979? For reasons of state?   How criterion even Western state capitalist develop we cannot know, any more Cambodia not just an apology but
villages, displaced 2 million people their parents – systems so complex words spoken and deeds done by to suppress our own crimes and to has China changed in the past 30 societies are more “socialist” than the than it was possible to predict with massive reparations. And that is very
and, Chomsky says, and helped they are impossible to duplicate politicians, governments, religious defend the right to lie at will about the years and what can we predict Bolsheviks and their successors. much accuracy in the past. One far from the only case.
bring the Khmer Rouge to power. even with a room full of computers or corporate officials – so that the crimes of enemies. Those are major about things to come in China’s can easily imagine scenarios In human affairs, is moral clarity
Chomsky’s comments come – and that’s what makes people so average citizen can look at the tasks of the educated classes, as we relationship with its neighbours in Now we’re seeing US warships of serious conflict breaking out into something that you can only stab at
after the US last week ruled out precious. world more accurately as it applies documented at length, in these books Southeast Asia? docking in Vietnam and the major wars, perhaps even nuclear based on complex, ever-changing
a plea from Cambodian Prime Chomsky’s theories of universal to him or her – rather than as part and elsewhere. The historic enmity between Vietnamese economy booming.  Do wars. Their likelihood cannot information?  Does that mean
Minister Hun Sen to forgive a grammar and generative grammar of the agenda of a state, a religion, It is a rare study that does not Vietnam and China goes back a you think the US is strengthening be estimated. citizens have to take on the difficult,
US$317 million debt to the US are now accepted by scholars a corporation or some other power contain errors, but our chapter millennium. In 1978-79, Cambodia military ties in Southeast Asia to confusing and bitter realities they’d
accrued by the Lon Nol regime around the world and encompass centre, as Chomsky calls them. on Cambodia seems to be an was a Chinese ally, and Vietnam counter Chinese expansion?  How If we look at the Soviet Union as an probably rather not think about
during the 1970s. the idea that all human languages Just as in his reasoning that exception.  Despite massive effort, was linked to the Russians, China’s would Cambodia or Burma fit into example, would it be reasonable to in order to prevent horrors from
In the interview, Chomsky said: are based on underlying rules that the Vietnam War was not in the no one has found even a misplaced main enemy. The Chinese invasion that, if at all, would you imagine?  expect communist states like North happening in their lives? What
“Henry Kissinger would certainly every human baby is born with, interest of the American people, so comma, let alone any substantive of Vietnam, US-backed, was The US is surely seeking to Korea, or even China and Vietnam happens if they don’t?
be brought to trial for his role in which explains why children, does Chomsky reason that Israel’s A young Noam Chomsky during his Vietnam War protest days. Photo supplied error. We would be more than explicitly intended as punishment strengthen its position in the to collapse?  Do you think they are Yes, individuals have to take on
the bombing, if the world were wherever they are, quickly acquire policies in the West Bank and Gaza happy to concede and correct any of the Vietnamese. And as Southeast Asia region, and the states here to stay?   these hard and often painful tasks. 

Q& A
governed by justice, not forces.” the language that is spoken to them. are not in the interest of the Israeli error, but despite Herculean efforts, you know, the US and Britain there still have their traditional Each case is quite different from If they don’t, the prospects for
Considered a father of modern Chomsky says that if an alien people. none have been found. Please immediately turned to military, concern about Chinese power. Just the others. I do not think that the decent human survival are slim.
linguistics, Chomsky is the author visited Earth, he would observe Though Chomsky is a Jew and a don’t take my word for it, of course. diplomatic and ideological how Burma and Cambodia will find USSR provides any particular insight Stuart Alan Becker, a journalist based in
of more than 100 books about that all humans speak the Hebrew scholar, he nevertheless Check and see for yourself. support for Pol Pot (“Democratic their way into this nexus of conflict into what might happen in other so- Thailand, has been corresponding with Noam
language and international affairs. same language with only slight criticises Israel’s military actions, with Noam Chomsky Kampuchea”). and cooperation it is hard to say. called “communist” states. Chomsky for more than three years.
He’s also one of the world’s variation. Chomsky’s approach to which he says are more dangerous When you look at the genocide under The world has changed
most-quoted living scholars. understanding language at MIT has to the population of Israel than they the Khmer Rouge that occurred in considerably in the past 30 years.
Much of what he says in speeches, enabled computer scientists and are helpful. How is it that people got the idea protest, but coverage was slight and Cambodia, do you put the blame on The Soviet Union has collapsed,
interviews and scholarly works is researchers in many others fields to You could say Chomsky is an you were soft on Khmer Rouge it was quickly forgotten. The new the American bombing of Cambodia China entered into a period of very
quickly translated into scores of apply mathematical-style rules to equal-opportunity critic of all atrocities as a result of your 1988 revelations have been almost entirely for creating the conditions that rapid economic growth, which
languages. language. groups with power, regardless of book with Edward S Herman, suppressed. During the third period, brought Pol Pot to power, or is it Vietnam is now recapitulating on a
As Chomsky approaches his 83rd British professor Dr Niels Jerne ethnicity and national origin – Manufacturing Consent? coverage again was very slight and the more complex than that? much smaller scale. Rivalries and
year, he is still a professor emeritus won a Nobel Prize in 1964 by which is probably what makes him In our 1988 book, Herman and history has also been almost entirely Two leading Cambodia scholars, tensions remain, but they are not
at the Massachusetts Institute applying Chomskyan theories to so popular and welcome in so many I reviewed the way the horrors in forgotten. Owen Taylor and Ben Kiernan, taking the form they had in the days
of Technology in Cambridge, the human body’s immune system places – and so controversial. Cambodia had been treated through Our accurate review of these facts point out that when the intense US of intense China-Russia hostility.
Massachusetts, considered one of with a paper called The Generative Chomsky has been watching three distinct phases: the US war did lead to considerable outrage, bombing of rural Cambodia began,
the best technical universities in Grammar of the Immune System. the events that have occurred in before the Khmer Rouge takeover in and massive lies, such as what you the Khmer Rouge were a small group It seems like nationalism is a more
the world. In addition to his linguistic Cambodia since the end of the April 1975; the Khmer Rouge period; mention. That was even more true of of perhaps 10,000. Within a few years, powerful cohesive force than mere
Chomsky has taught there for and philosophical pioneering, second world war. the period after Vietnam invaded our 1979 two-volume study, Political the KR had grown to a huge army of political ideology as evidenced
more than 50 years. Chomsky was an early opponent He took time to answer some and drove out the Khmer Rouge and Economy of Human Rights, which some 200,000, deeply embittered and by the anti-communist tendency
His work on how the brain deals of the Vietnam War, dating back to questions about significant events the US and Britain turned at once provides extensive documentation seeking revenge. Their recruitment of the Cold War to think that “all
with language changed how the France’s reappearance in Indochina in the Kingdom’s history that have to direct military and diplomatic to show that this pattern was (and is) propaganda successfully highlighted communists are brothers” but
world’s professors think about following the conclusion of the helped shape Cambodia today. support for the Khmer Rouge quite generally, extending all over the the US bombing.  Pentagon records history has shown that definitely
(“Democratic Kampuchea”).  By the world.   Most of the study concerned reveal that the tonnage of bombs not to be true.  Would you agree? 
time we wrote, it was known that the US crimes, so it was therefore released on rural Cambodia was Would it be reasonable to hope
Tragic targets pre-1975 US war was horrendous, unreviewed and unread, confirming about the same as total US bombing that countries like China, Vietnam,
but it is only in the past few years our thesis. in the Pacific during World War II, and North Korea and Cuba would
that more extensive documents One chapter was about Cambodia.  of course far more intense. But that eventually drop communist forms
have been released. In it, we harshly condemned Pol was surely not the only factor. of government or are those power
We now know that the most brutal Pot’s crimes, and also revealed systems “addicted” if you will? 
phase began in 1970, when Henry extraordinary fabrication and deceit. In your reading of history, why do  I dislike the use of the term
Kissinger transmitted President We wrote that the crimes were leaders of states go so terribly wrong “communist” for these systems, but
Nixon’s orders for “massive bombing horrible enough, but commentators as to slaughter anyone who had ever let us put that aside. They may well
of Cambodia, anything that flies on ought to keep to the truth, and to been to school or who wore glasses?  take different forms in the years
anything that moves” (Kissinger’s the most reliable sources, like State Can you imagine the intellectual or ahead.  The idea that they were all
words, to General Haig).  It is hard Department intelligence, by all emotional basis for how perpetrators “brothers” was a fantasy from the
to find a declaration with such clear accounts the most knowledgeable of mass killings are able to blithely start.  The same was true in the
genocidal intent in the archival source at the time – and also largely live with themselves as instruments West. The US repeatedly overthrew
record of any state.  And the orders suppressed, apart from our review, of mass killing? capitalist democracies that were
were carried out.  Bombing of because it did not conform to the It’s a good question.  We can also challenging US domination, and to
rural Cambodia was at the level of image that was manufactured. That ask similar questions about our own this day adopts severe measures to
total Allied bombing in the Pacific image was important. society, which we should be able punish populations that vote “the
theatre during World War II.  The It was exploited quite explicitly to understand better. Just keep to wrong way” in free elections.
Khmer Rouge, as we now know, to whitewash past US crimes in Cambodia. The intense bombing
expanded to about 200,000, largely Indochina, and to lay the groundwork began under President Nixon’s orders, In your reading of Marxism, which
recruited by the bombing. for new and quite awful crimes in which Kissinger loyally transmitted to is still widely taught in China,
During the first and third period Central America, justified on grounds the US military with these words: Vietnam, North Korea and Cuba in
there was quite a lot that Americans that the US had to stop the “Pol Pot “Massive bombing campaign in schools and universities – when
– more generally Westerners – could left”, We compared Cambodia to Cambodia. Anything that flies on you compare what Marx wrote with
Key do. During the second period no one East Timor, accurately: two huge anything that moves.” That’s the kind what actually happened in Russia,
US bombing targets 1970-75 even had a suggestion as to what atrocities in the same time period of call for genocide that one rarely Cambodia, Cuba, North Korea and
to do. The coverage is exactly the and same area of the world, differing finds in the archival record of any other places – what conclusions
US B-52 bombing targets 1973
opposite of what elementary moral in one crucial respect: in East Timor state. The statement was published in can you make about the difference
considerations would dictate.  During the US and its allies had primary The New York Times, and there was between communism on paper and
the first period, there was some responsibility for the atrocities, and no reaction among its mostly liberal communism foisted on citizens.  Is The octogenarian Noam Chomsky photographed earlier this year. Donna Coveney