1

1 THE OTHER SIDE WGGH RADIO MARION, ILLINOIS

2 WITH RUSSELL RICH AND JOHN ODLE

3 JULY 5, 2022

4 ........................................................

5 JOHN ODLE: Today on the Other Side we have a

6 very special guest, via the phone.

7 Something we don't normally do. Right? We

8 don't normally have phone calls.

9 RUSSELL RICH: No.

10 JOHN ODLE: But we are talking with him today.

11 It's Garrett Ziegler. Let me go ahead and --

12 let me go ahead and bring him on.

13 Russell's not going to be able to hear him.

14 He's going to be mad at me here. If you're

15 listening to us on WGGH 98.5 or 1150 AM or on

16 www.wggh.net or on The Monster Radio app, you can't

17 see Russell's disappointment.

18 Hey, what's going on Garrett?

19 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Hey, good afternoon. Thanks

20 for having me on.

21 JOHN ODLE: Absolutely, buddy.

22 Give us a taste of who you are, where you're

23 from and what you do.

24 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Yeah. I -- I grew up in

25 Effingham, Illinois. I was born there; both of my

 2

1 parents work there; I live there now. I went to

2 college in St. Louis, and during college I got an

3 internship at the White House for a guy on trade,

4 but a guy who had totally opposite views from the

5 guy I ended up working for.

6 I ended up working for Peter Navarro after I

7 graduated college and the guy that I interned for

8 was Gary Cohn who I actually despise; and so it was

9 an interesting internship because I basically was

10 trying to do everything in my power to make sure

11 that the ideas that Gary Cohn had weren't

12 implemented.

13 And so through that internship I got to know

14 Peter Navarro and I worked for him for -- for

15 nearly two years, up until the soft coup. My final

16 day in the White House was January 18th.

17 And since then the -- the mission that I've

18 been on is basically exposing what I think is the

19 illegitimate first family of the United States.

20 Particularly the son of the president.

21 And then other -- other topics that -- that we

22 cover at our nonprofit, called Marco Polo, is

23 everything from the influence of cartels in

24 American politics -- that's really our next project

25 concerning the southwestern states, particularly

 3

1 Arizona, New Mexico. And so our mission right now

2 is to expose corruption/blackmail; and the Bidens

3 are a prime candidate for that.

4 And so we've been, over the past ten months,

5 preparing a comprehensive report on the laptop of

6 the president's son and only focusing on the crimes

7 thereon. And so through that, I've met Russell and

8 he asked if I wanted to come on today, and I always

9 like the local stations, so I appreciate you having

10 me on.

11 JOHN ODLE: Absolutely.

12 Listen, that is a lot of information. Like,

13 wow.

14 Let's break down January 6th. From your

15 perspective --

16 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Uh-huh.

17 JOHN ODLE: -- we -- what happened that day?

18 GARRETT ZIEGLER: I think what happened is you

19 had a public that I'll -- I'll equate the public

20 with the Trump voting public. You had about 75 to

21 80 million people who finally -- if they didn't

22 recognize it before then, they finally recognized

23 it: Their voices were not being heard. And

24 particularly that -- that lack of voice was felt

25 most strongly by the Republicans in Congress who

 4

1 refused to even really have a real investigation.

2 So you had a small faction, a small minority,

3 that trespassed in the Capitol. And then within

4 that small minority you had a -- I would say no

5 more than a dozen people who were agitated by

6 professional provocateurs or FBI plants within the

7 larger crowd. And so what you had was simple

8 trespassing misdemeanors blown up on purpose to a

9 fake insurrection. It doesn't even meet the

10 Webster's definition of an insurrection. They're

11 not even really rioters. They didn't even burn

12 stuff, like in Portland. Nobody was armed, you

13 know.

14 And then -- so -- so, there really was a

15 misdemeanor level of trespassing mixed in with

16 professional provocateurs who used those

17 trespassers to then make a case for seditious

18 conspiracy against Donald Trump, which is really

19 their main goal. They do not want him to run

20 again.

21 So, people who are like me who are lower on the

22 totem pole in the White House, I am nothing more

23 than a convenient, basically, hook for them to get

24 Trump on -- on seditious conspiracy. And you know,

25 they indicted my former boss, along with Steve

 5

1 Bannon, and basically, right now that whole

2 committee is -- their job is to collect enough

3 evidence for their show trial and sham indictment

4 that they're trying to pull with Trump either in

5 Fulton County, Georgia, or the District of Columbia

6 where you basically can't get a fair jury these

7 days, it's absolutely pathetic.

8 The Sussman trial, I don't think Durham did as

9 good a job as he should have. I think he should

10 have been up there on the stand. He did very

11 little argumentation in the -- in the courtroom. I

12 was disappointed. He farmed that all out to the

13 young guys. He should have been arguing the case.

14 But -- but the -- the overall point is that I think

15 Durham had a -- a kill shot there but yet the jury

16 in D.C. was full of -- of Sussmann associates. His

17 kid played baseball or sports with the juror's

18 child. It's ridiculous.

19 So the reason why that's relevant is because I

20 think all of this, going back to the misdemeanor,

21 it is to drum up this idea that Trump knew was --

22 there was going to be an attack -- that he knew

23 there was going to be an attack on the Capitol,

24 which is just ridiculous, and that he somehow

25 proved it and, you know, there was premeditated,

 6

1 you know, premeditated, I guess, planning, which is

2 sort of redundant, but basically they wanted --

3 they want to tie Trump into this. And it's just a

4 joke.

5 I mean, I -- I got subpoenaed by the Committee

6 and I have very -- very -- I have literally one

7 email about January 6th and it's about like, you

8 know, congresspeople who are going to -- who are

9 going to plan on giving two hours of debate. Like

10 that's the only production I had. They think that

11 I was talking about January 6th a lot. I wasn't

12 talking about January 6th at all. Me and Peter --

13 I never spoke directly with Peter about January

14 6th.

15 So it's all just a hoax. It's really sad

16 though because in this hoax, unlike the Russian

17 collusion hoax where they -- where they ruined

18 maybe, you know, a dozen people's lives with

19 indictments, they're getting normal folks who

20 otherwise would just get a misdemeanor trespassing

21 violation and they're putting them basically in a

22 Gulag.

23 So that was a long answer to your question but

24 it's -- I think -- I look at it as a continuation

25 of the impeachment hoax, number two; and -- and I

 7

1 got caught into this just because I'm in -- I'm in

2 I'm the convenient young guy for them to sort of

3 drag down into this muck to try to get Trump.

4 RUSSELL RICH: Hey, Garrett?

5 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Yes.

6 RUSSELL RICH: This is Russell.

7 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Yep.

8 RUSSELL RICH: Thank you for coming on board.

9 Can you --

10 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Appreciate it.

11 RUSSELL RICH: -- hear me?

12 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Yep, I can.

13 RUSSELL RICH: Okay.

14 You and I go back to Twitter, I think, if I'm

15 not mistaken; and then over to Telegram.

16 But a question I have is on election night.

17 Can you talk about that?

18 GARRETT ZIEGLER: I wasn't in the White House

19 on election night. I left probably around

20 6:00 p.m. And the -- partly because I wasn't going

21 to go into the East Room. Most of that -- the RNC

22 controlled that -- like the actual attendance in the

23 East Room. And the RNC's thoroughly corrupt and so

24 it was just for the big -- the big money folks and

25 the family. And so I wasn't with the president or

 8

1 my colleagues on the night of November 3rd; but, I

2 mean, obviously I didn't sleep.

3 I think the -- the most telling thing is that

4 this simple question hasn't been answered of why in

5 this -- in this election was the -- the vote

6 counting extended into two days. And the -- the

7 general left-wing retort is that, well, we had a

8 ton of mail-in ballots to go through. The fact of

9 the matter is that those mail-in ballots had been

10 sent in for, like, almost a dozen weeks preceding.

11 It was many, many weeks before the election that

12 you could mail in your vote, right? And so the

13 idea that all of those had to be counted that

14 night, it just doesn't -- it just doesn't stand to

15 the actual rules on the ground of when you can

16 start counting ballots.

17 And so that, mixed with the dump of Biden

18 votes from, you know, 85 to 15 Trump, I think -- I

19 think the germ of the idea is basically that we had

20 a 1960 do-over and instead of Richard Daley's

21 Chicago machine -- I know I'm talking to a southern

22 Illinois crowd here on the radio.

23 RUSSELL RICH: Right.

24 GARRETT ZIEGLER: You know, if you take the

25 Richard Daley machine in Chicago, just probably not

 9

1 in the White House, and what we had was a Richard

2 Daley machine in all six big metropolitan areas,

3 from Phoenix to Atlanta to Green Bay; and so that

4 is a tough thing to -- to fight. And when you have

5 an RNC that is just incompetent or disloyal or all

6 the above, it makes it even more difficult.

7 So I would urge all the listeners to go back

8 and read the President's short statement on the

9 night of the 3rd. I guess it was like 3:30 a.m. on

10 November 4th.

11 RUSSELL RICH: I remember that.

12 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Pretty much everything he

13 said stands to this day.

14 And so that is -- it's a simplification but I

15 like answering in simple terms because that is the

16 question that hasn't got answered yet. Like

17 through all of the -- through all of the radio and

18 TV interviews that everybody has done about the

19 election, nobody has put one left-wing person on

20 the stand and -- and asked why -- why did the

21 counting stop?

22 For instance, if they needed all of this time

23 to go through the mail-in ballots, why would they

24 take a break from, you know, 3:00 a.m. to 6:00 a.m.

25 If they knew they were going to have this backlog,

 10

1 which I don't buy -- but let's just go with their

2 own argument. Even accepting their own premises,

3 you wouldn't need to have a stop during the night.

4 You could've hired people to have shifts throughout

5 the night.

6 I think they needed it -- they needed to stop

7 and see how many votes they needed to steal in the

8 six key metropolitan areas and that's what

9 happened.

10 RUSSELL RICH: Yeah, I --

11 GARRETT ZIEGLER: It's really sad though.

12 RUSSELL RICH: Yeah, I totally agree. I -- I'm

13 much older than you and I -- I've never -- and I

14 saw that night, I said wow, Trump is ahead. He

15 made the statement, he said we're ahead in all

16 these states. But --

17 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Mhmm.

18 RUSSELL RICH: -- let's watch out what

19 happens.

20 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Yeah.

21 RUSSELL RICH: And sure enough, I've never

22 seen a presidential election like that stop and

23 say, okay, we're going to start over in the

24 morning.

25 Like, what?
 11

1 And then --

2 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Yeah. And --

3 RUSSELL RICH: -- in Atlanta, they supposed to

4 have a big water problem and I think that turned

5 out not to be true, also.

6 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Yeah. And think about the

7 resources that they have marshaled to coverup all

8 of the lies and corruption just in Fulton County,

9 Georgia.

10 I'm -- I'm going back to the basics here

11 because a lot of this stuff is discrete and in

12 the -- in the weeds, but two key facts about Fulton

13 County that everybody should walk away from this

14 conversation with: Number 1, Richard [Barron], the

15 former -- now -- he got fired, but the former

16 elections director for Fulton County said that

17 they -- they basically adjudicated a very -- over

18 106,0001 ballots, meaning -- he said the quiet part

19 out loud. They adjudicated, which means decided

20 the voter's intent on, a number of ballots that far

21 exceeded what they normally did, which means there

22 was fraud.

23 Secondly, Ruby Freeman, on video, asked --

24 basically joked and said, "Joe, we gonna to need a

25 pardon for this, Joe. Joe, we gonna need a

1 www.c-span.org/video/?477819-1/fulton-county-georgia-election-update
 12

1 pardon for this."

2 And so you see that Ruby Freeman's attorney is

3 Michael Gottlieb who is a good friend and associate

4 of Hunter Biden and Boies Schiller, and he was the

5 attorney for Seth Rich's brother when they were

6 taking all of these defamation cases in the

7 District of Columbia's District Court.

8 So what does that mean? That means that Ruby

9 Freeman was given -- because Lord knows she can't

10 afford it -- she was given the premier attorney in

11 the nation by the upper echelons and the DNC to

12 cover for her. And they didn't expect her to be

13 this stupid. They have all these foot soldiers all

14 over the country, but this woman, you know, just

15 like a gang member, wanted to broadcast her crimes

16 to others.

17 And so it's just a -- it's a fascinating

18 sociological experiment to see how many sins have

19 occurred to cover up other sins.

20 RUSSELL RICH: Have you seen 2000 Mules?

21 GARRETT ZIEGLER: I have. It was a compelling

22 movie.

23 I have been displeased with the nonprofit's

24 unwillingness to share their data because,

25 basically, what we have now is a pit bull on a leash

 13

1 with a giant piece of steak on the ground, and True

2 the Vote is basically holding the pit bull and

3 telling him no, you can't have the piece of steak

4 on the ground because of X, Y and Z.

5 The movie was compelling. I definitely think

6 there was low -- low-rent fraud, meaning they

7 paid -- that they won -- they won the election, in

8 part, by paying mules $15 an hour to drop off all

9 these ballots. But right now, because we can't get

10 under the hood, so to speak, we can't -- we can't

11 even verify their claims or make a -- make a

12 suggestion to law enforcement.

13 There are many sleuths out there, my nonprofit

14 included, that would greatly benefit from getting

15 the raw data feed because remember, True the Vote,

16 Catherine Engelbrecht and -- and Gregg Phillips,

17 they're not data people themselves. So what they

18 did was basically found a donor to buy this huge

19 data trove and then they made this movie off of it.

20 Whereas I'm a little bit of a nerd. I don't

21 know what it is; maybe I just think nothing's

22 beneath me, but I want to go and do the actual hard

23 work of then looking at these cell pings and

24 matching them up with specific people. Because

25 their -- the IMEI data that they have, it may not

 14

1 tell you the -- they may not be able to get back to

2 a particular cell phone, but if you look at that

3 foot traffic, we can get individual houses, right?

4 And you could have four mules living in the same

5 house. And that's a -- that's an actual referral

6 to a sheriff.

7 So I'm -- I'm appreciative of the effort. I'm

8 just aggravated with the lack of transparency from

9 the producers of the film which is just so opposite

10 to what my nonprofit has tried to do with releasing

11 our budgets, you know, not having sort of Super

12 PACs fund us. So I would -- I would grade it a six

13 right now.

14 Imagine the American public, 80 million people

15 who voted for Trump are pit bulls. There's a huge

16 piece of steak thrown on the ground and they're

17 like, well, you know, we can't give you the steak.

18 It's like (growling sound effect). How are we

19 going to solve the problem if you can't get us the

20 actual data?

21 And I have -- by the way, by the way, I have

22 brought these concerns directly to the people

23 involved. I'm not -- I'm not a negative Nelly.

24 I'm not just here complaining. We brought these

25 issues directly to the producers and the people

 15

1 featured in the movie and we've got no resolution,

2 so...

3 But it's worth your time, I think. I think

4 it's better than if it did not exist. I just want

5 to -- like you, I want referrals to sheriffs.

6 JOHN ODLE: Hey, Garrett.

7 I know right now we're talking to Garrett.

8 Garrett, are you still there, buddy?

9 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Yes, sir.

10 JOHN ODLE: Hey, there he is.

11 You -- earlier in the broadcast I was chatting

12 with you. Russell -- Russell couldn't hear you.

13 He wanted to know about Marco Polo.

14 RUSSELL RICH: Could you talk about Marco

15 Polo?

16 GARRETT ZIEGLER: After I left the White House

17 I really couldn't keep my mind off of the election

18 fraud. I knew that what we were -- what we had

19 just gone through would be written about in great

20 detail. And I -- I couldn't stop thinking about

21 the electronic fraud because I -- I knew that, like

22 we talked about with 2000 Mules, they did this

23 through foot soldiers, but the returns at 3:30 were

24 electronically manipulated. But the sad part about

25 it is, is we don't have any more proof admissible

 16

1 in court 18 months later.

2 But through that quest, a valiant one, I got

3 to know a group of guys, about a half a dozen, all

4 across the county, a couple of people who live

5 abroad but who are American veterans. And through

6 that I got -- I got to know them and we were

7 studying corruption, which -- which we thought

8 explained the election fraud. Everything from Doug

9 Ducey in Phoenix being utterly useless -- almost.

10 Almost. I mean, I won't -- I won't say that he's

11 treasonous but he basically just, in a Pilate-like

12 fashion, washed his hands of everything. And we

13 were trying to understand what made people act like

14 that. And we -- we think he's controlled.

15 Sometimes people think that when you're

16 blackmailed that just means you're like Hunter

17 Biden and there's some sexual sin that somebody's

18 holding over you. I think it's much more nuanced.

19 And we think that Doug Ducey is controlled by some

20 entity, we just don't know which one yet.

21 But through that -- through that quest to

22 figure out why people acted the way they do, I got

23 to know some guys and we set up a nonprofit last

24 July and have, so far, compiled what we consider to

25 be the most complete dossier on the American first

 17

1 family. It'll be more comprehensive than any

2 biography to date, although we've -- I -- we've had

3 the pleasure of working with some of the -- some of

4 their biographers, Ben Schreckinger who's a liberal

5 writer at Politico, but is not a leftist and thus

6 able to work with us. He has helped -- he's helped

7 me informally.

8 And so what Marco Polo is, is basically the

9 opposition research firm for the far right. And by

10 far right I simply mean normal Americans. People

11 who --

12 RUSSELL RICH: Right.

13 GARRETT ZIEGLER: -- believe basic things

14 like: Men and women are different, they have

15 different roles, different gifts, they believe, you

16 know, in Jesus. And so that's basically far right

17 today.

18 And so we're not a -- we're not an explicitly

19 Christian organization although all of our people

20 are Christians. We just -- we do open source

21 research. It is a, what a lot of people in the

22 so-called conservative movement consider grunt

23 work. A lot of my day has been building profiles

24 on people.

25 There's a lawyer in California -- this is

 18

1 news, but I don't really like to think of it as

2 news. There is a lawyer in California named Bart

3 Buchalter, B-U-C-H-A-L-T-E-R. It's a surname. He

4 is a prolific human trafficker. He's mentioned in

5 multiple suspicious activity reports with -- with

6 Hunter Biden directly. They're in this same --

7 they're in this same SAR that was submitted from

8 J.P. Morgan to the Department of the Treasury; and

9 so what I've done today is basically dig into Bart

10 Buchalter and figure out his professional

11 affiliations and all of this really nitty-gritty

12 research that the Heritage Foundation, Cato, they

13 really think they're above that.

14 And so that's what Marco Polo is. It's a

15 group that will over -- you know, that will turn

16 over every single rock. And we're basically --

17 we -- we have our pulse on the Bidens. I will say

18 that. I can absolutely say that in the western

19 world there's no group who knows more about the

20 Bidens. Everything from important stuff to

21 unimportant stuff.

22 For example, did you know that Joe's power of

23 attorney -- the President has had a power of

24 attorney since 1987. His name is Mel Monzack and

25 he was featured in the data leaks that the ICIJ2 put

2 offshoreleaks.icij.org/nodes/47160
 19

1 out about the Panama Papers. So the Panama Papers,

2 you know, are a big data leak that -- that happened

3 with shell companies in the Caribbean, all their --

4 all their stuff. Joe Biden's power of attorney,

5 Mel Monzack, this Jewish lawyer from Rhode Island

6 who started the law firm that Joe was working at in

7 1969 in Wilmington, Delaware, that guy's in the

8 [leaks from ICIJ].

9 In a normal country, that news is huge. If

10 that happened to President Trump, the fact that his

11 power of attorney and right-hand man -- I mean,

12 look what they did to Cohen3 before he lost his

13 mind. They were digging in every single taxi

14 medallion that guy got from 1990 on.

15 So I -- I think that when we release this

16 report -- and we've already released a ton to date.

17 We've released all the Word documents, all of the

18 texts messages from the Biden laptop, all the

19 e-mails. If you -- if your listeners go on

20 bidenlaptopemails.com, we've had over 7 million

21 hits on that website so far; we've got

22 international press coverage. We've put all the

23 e-mails out there, 120,000 e-mails from the

24 American first family.

25 If I were -- if I were a foreigner and I --

3 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cohen_(lawyer)
 20

1 and I weren't an American, I think that would be

2 pretty interesting. Hell, I'd even go look up the

3 first family of Luxembourg, even a little country.

4 I think that'd be -- I'd go read the president of

5 Luxembourg's e-mails.

6 So, we've had --

7 JOHN ODLE: Seriously?

8 GARRETT ZIEGLER: -- a lot of interest in

9 that.

10 JOHN ODLE: I can go there right now and --

11 and check that stuff out? Biden -- what is it?

12 Biden lap -- what -- say it again.

13 GARRETT ZIEGLER: bidenlaptopemails.com.

14 And not only that, we give you the entire .zip

15 file so if you're a sleuth and don't want to just

16 read the .eml on the web browser, we give you the

17 opportunity to go download the entire .zip file

18 yourself. It's about 650 megabytes. So if you're

19 a tech person and you want to inspect the metadata

20 on each of the -- even if you're a -- a leftist and

21 think this is all spoofed and from the Kremlin, you

22 can go and read the .eml file and look at the

23 metadata and see that it's all legit.

24 It's a pretty unbelievable situation where he

25 forgot his laptop at a repair shop.

 21

1 RUSSELL RICH: Do you think -- did he have

2 only one laptop or is there two or three out there?

3 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Hunter has lost three

4 different laptops. One -- the first one, I'm

5 quoting from him directly, was -- the first one he

6 lost was in the summer of 2018. He was in Las

7 Vegas. His story -- that I'm repeating from his own

8 Mouth, this is not my interpretation of it -- he

9 told a hooker on January 6th, 2019, that he lost

10 it -- a laptop in the summer of 2018 in Vegas. He

11 was face down in a pool, passed out, and at -- at

12 that time -- and he almost died, by the way,

13 according to him -- at that time, a couple of

14 Russian drug dealers that he bought crack from

15 stole his laptop, and on that laptop there was,

16 quote, "videos of him doing crazy f'ing sex."

17 So that's out there. That's already been out

18 there, been reported on.

19 JOHN ODLE: Russell's been there before.

20 GARRETT ZIEGLER: This -- this second laptop

21 was a laptop that he'd left. Again, he forgot

22 about it at Keith Ablow's place in Newburyport,

23 Massachusetts.

24 Keith Ablow is a disgraced former

25 psychiatrist, lost his medical license.

 22

1 RUSSELL RICH: Yeah.

2 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Was sexually and

3 psychologically abusing his patients. Had a couple

4 of the girl patients tattoo his initials on their

5 genitals. That's the guy that Hunter Biden was

6 seeing in Newburyport.

7 So he forgot about his laptop there.

8 And this third laptop, the laptop that I have

9 a copy of, was left at a repair shop in Wilmington.

10 So, Hunter operates in a different world. In

11 his world where the Ukrainian, Chinese cash is

12 flush, you have four or five different laptops and,

13 via iCloud, everything is synced up across the

14 devices. Mere mortals, like myself, I have one

15 laptop. But Hunter had like five or six; if you

16 lose a couple of them...

17 And what -- what has happened is that I have

18 just gone through this app -- this -- with a fine

19 tooth. I -- I've gone through every single person.

20 Today I found out that Hunter was basically fooling

21 around with and having sex with the fiancée4 of

22 George Lucas's adopted son. George Lucas, you

23 know, filmmaker of Star Wars, his -- his adopted

24 son, that -- that man's fiancée was like a liaison

25 [to] Hunter Biden on -– in the summer of 2018.

4 www.facebook.com/karissa.marston1
 23

1 So it's a fascinating -- it's a fascinating

2 thing. We think it's going it’s the Rosetta Stone.

3 There's going to be things that come up in five

4 years, everything from, you know Lisa Monaco to

5 Victoria Nuland, these characters that work in the

6 American deep state. They're all on there. Even

7 if they're not on the e-mails directly, meaning

8 they're not corresponding with Hunter, they're

9 talked about on this laptop.

10 So it's really a political gift, and it's a

11 gift for the world because we can see how dirty and

12 corrupt these people are.

13 RUSSELL RICH: Um, you just named the name

14 Ukraine.

15 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Yes.

16 RUSSELL RICH: I cannot get people to

17 understand how corrupt and why being in Ukraine is

18 not a good thing.

19 GARRETT ZIEGLER: A very good point. I think

20 that -- I once called Italy, after we were looking

21 at this election fraud stuff, I look at Italy as a

22 subcontractor of the American deep state. And

23 that's what I have grown to believe Ukraine is,

24 basically.

25 RUSSELL RICH: Uh-huh.

 24

1 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Ukraine, to me, represents

2 the most recent and most glaring example of the CIA,

3 basically, overthrowing a leader they don't like.5

4 Whatever you think of Viktor Yanukovych, the -- the

5 person who fled Ukraine, the president who fled in

6 February of 2014, he was legitimately elected. The

7 people elected him.

8 Well, the CIA didn't like that because he

9 didn't love the EU and he didn't want to be on one

10 single digital currency, which is what they want.

11 And so that's why they were -- they were willing to

12 work with literal6 Nazis to overthrow Yanukovych.

13 And so what I see Ukraine as to -- to our

14 enemies, meaning the people who hate American

15 sovereignty, the people who don't like the American

16 founders and what they stood for, Ukraine

17 represents the EU; every single country in that

18 continent being under the EU, every single country

19 being on the same currency.

20 And so that's why they're spending billions of

21 dollars to defend that idea. They want Ukraine,

22 they want everybody under the EU because then you

23 get a real governance model. They don't really

24 like messy republican politics. They want

25 unelected people who are sterile, who are

5 archive.ph/NAXCc
6 kanekoa.substack.com/p/how-one-ukrainian-billionaire-funded
 25

1 childless, who can basically sit back and conduct

2 governance, not government.

3 So I know that's a discrete example but I

4 think Ukraine represents so much of what the CIA

5 wants [for] the world, which is basically one world

6 government controlled by liberal childless

7 homosexuals. That's not my opinion. If you

8 actually look at the data and who is leading these

9 countries, most of them don't have children.7

10 They're -- at one point in time every single leader

11 in Europe was childless. And they -- they all love

12 the EU and they all love the global -- the global

13 governance model.

14 RUSSELL RICH: So let me go -- because I

15 didn't get to hear you and John. John may not know

16 some of this.

17 Let's go back. In high school you played

18 several sports, correct?

19 GARRETT ZIEGLER: I did.

20 RUSSELL RICH: Okay. And, you're also a very

21 strong Christian.

22 Can you kind of tell him about your Christian

23 roots?

24 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Yeah. You know, I -- I

25 played at John A. Logan College in the summers, a

7 washingtonexaminer.com/emmanuel-macron-and-the-barren-elite-of-a-changing-
continent
 26

1 fair amount of baseball, and then I played in a

2 basketball league.

3 Yeah. I think the -- obviously, I am no

4 better than the next guy. The -- the most common

5 attack on Christianity, I think, is that the people

6 who practice it are sinners. And I say, “Of course!

7 You get the point now. So, now that we've both

8 established that both unbelievers and believers are

9 sinners, now we can have a conversation about

10 what's true or not.”

11 Because that's basically -- people who aren't

12 Christians, that's the first thing they'll say is

13 well, I – “I met a Christian once and he was a

14 sinner.” And I think that we're all sinners.

15 Christians are just the ones that accept that as

16 our born condition and recognize that we can't save

17 ourselves. That's basically the biggest truth

18 claim of Christianity.

19 All of the eastern religions -- Islam, Judaism,

20 all the other non-Christian religions basically say

21 it's on you to fix you. And Christianity is not

22 like that. Obviously, you -- you can do good

23 works, but it's -- it's ultimately on the Holy

24 Spirit changing your heart and changing your

25 outlook.
 27

1 That's a very unique way of looking at the

2 world. Most people throughout human history

3 haven't -- haven't worked that way. And, so, it's

4 basically the lens I view everything through. I

5 view the -- the lens through the Bible which

6 basically states -- and not in these terms but I'll

7 describe, you know, my interpretation of it -- that

8 people have original sin, the world is a mess, the

9 world is a mess because it's sinful. And you know,

10 our job is to -- is to -- is to follow God and --

11 and read His word and through that we will be told

12 which path to take.

13 I think the -- the -- sort of the cultural

14 Christianity movement has sort of hurt us in a way

15 because it doesn't -- it doesn't describe

16 Christianity like I just said. It's basically, you

17 know, a bunch of political conferences in D.C.

18 about, you know, like, preserving our rights in the

19 Supreme Court, which I think is somewhat important

20 but I think it's more important to -- to -- to say

21 it like I just did which is it's not on you to fix

22 you.

23 Those are -- those are ideas about

24 Christianity that I don't think a lot of people

25 have heard. And once you admit that you are a

 28

1 Christian and that you sin, and you're not trying

2 to be anything but a sinner --

3 RUSSELL RICH: Uh-huh.

4 GARRETT ZIEGLER: -- you're not -- you're not

5 saying that you're not a sinner. I think a lot of

6 people get the idea that Christians hold themselves

7 as holy rollers; but if you accept that premise

8 that Christians are sinners and, you know, they're

9 not any better than you, but they just believe that

10 the way they get over that and to reconcile that is

11 different, I think that -- that's a better

12 conversation.

13 Because most people when they -- you know,

14 when they -- when I tell people that I worked for

15 Trump -- I worked for Peter Navarro, who worked for

16 Trump, Trump was my boss's boss -- you know,

17 they'll say, well -- well, Trump had premarital

18 sex, Trump had sex outside of marriage, is that

19 a -- is that wrong? And I'll say of course it's

20 wrong. Just because Trump did it doesn't mean it's

21 not a sin.

22 So I think that, you know, they -- they say

23 well, how can the Christian right be for Trump?

24 Well, basically he's the only one standing up for

25 U.S. sovereignty right now on the world stage.

 29

1 All -- most of the Republicans don't actually

2 believe in a sovereign nation.

3 Like you said, Russell, they want to give

4 $40 billion to Ukraine. It's not in our interest

5 to do that. We don't have sovereignty if we have

6 that.

7 RUSSELL RICH: Here's the thing, I think I've

8 probably have known this, as I've grown in

9 understanding, is how much corporate America really

10 owns and runs this country.

11 GARRETT ZIEGLER: That's a great -- that's a

12 great point. And --

13 RUSSELL RICH: That they give money for their

14 campaigns. They write the bills, and they get what

15 they want.

16 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Uh-huh. And I'll go back.

17 RUSSELL RICH: I think that's where --

18 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Yeah.

19 RUSSELL RICH: -- a lot of that stuff comes

20 in.

21 GARRETT ZIEGLER: I think it's a great point

22 and I -- I try to go back to -- to figure out what

23 to do about it you have to read what the founders

24 wrote, but even at that point in time the only

25 comparable thing to Apple at John Jay's time was

 30

1 maybe the British West Indies Trading Company. So

2 we're really in a new -- a new era. The problems

3 are different today.

4 And to go back to my hitting on Republicans

5 and what they need to do to earn our vote again and

6 to -- and to fight -- really fight, is most of the

7 Republicans, Russell, not -- not only do they not

8 get the solution, they wouldn't even accept the

9 problem that you just laid out. Meaning, their

10 biggest priority is to give tax cuts to large

11 corporations that hate America and are pushing

12 critical race theory in our schools, and have a

13 rainbow flag over their logo for the entire month

14 of June. That shouldn't be the first priority of

15 the Republicans.

16 So I think looking at corporate American as --

17 as hostile to the American republic is -- is

18 foundational to my belief system and to basically

19 every patriot's belief system. Because once you

20 accept that, then we can -- then we can actually

21 marshal the resources against these political

22 interests that, like you said, write our bills.

23 I may be coming off negative to your

24 listeners, but I truly am not. I just -- we have

25 to be clear-eyed as to who the actual enemies are

 31

1 and that's, you know, Google and everything -- and

2 everybody else in the tech scene.

3 JOHN ODLE: Garrett Ziegler is on.

4 Thank you so much for being with us today.

5 And Russell told you we're going 'til 5:00.

6 We actually go until 5:30, so as long as you want

7 to tell us stories about what is going on and what

8 we need to know, we are -- I'm here to listen

9 and -- and just soak up as much as I can.

10 GARRETT ZIEGLER: I appreciate having me on.

11 I -- I don't want to ruin -- you know, when

12 somebody invites you over to their house the first

13 time and they don't want to be telling you, okay,

14 it's -- you know, it's time to go. So I'll -- I'll

15 dip at 5:00; hopefully, we can do this again

16 though.

17 RUSSELL RICH: Okay.

18 GARRETT ZIEGLER: So -- because maybe -- maybe

19 some of your -- your listeners, the first time it's

20 like, okay, I've had enough of Garrett for now.

21 Maybe I'll listen to him again.

22 My mother calls me, and she loves me more than

23 anybody, I'm kind of exasperating a lot. And so

24 maybe some people are -- have had their fill after

25 an hour.
 32

1 RUSSELL RICH: We do not.

2 JOHN ODLE: I don't care what people --

3 GARRETT ZIEGLER: You know, hey, this is a

4 good analogy. The Republicans -- some of these

5 Republican senators, they're like 85. Bless their

6 heart. They have erectile dysfunction. They need

7 to get off the stage.

8 RUSSELL RICH: I know it.

9 GARRETT ZIEGLER: They can't -- they -- they

10 never leave.

11 JOHN ODLE: Mitch McConnell.

12 GARRETT ZIEGLER: And -- and so I think it's,

13 you know, it's just as important of when to start

14 as when to -- when to end. That's an analogy I

15 think -- you know, we're living in a gerontocracy

16 right now. I'm looking at a photo of Nancy Pelosi

17 gallivanting on the beach in Italy and I mean,

18 she -- she's basically a cadaver right now. I

19 mean, this is a very old person with early onset

20 dementia, definitely has Parkinson's. She shakes

21 terribly.

22 RUSSELL RICH: We have a lot of old people on

23 both sides of the party.

24 Garrett, I want to --

25 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Yeah.

 33

1 RUSSELL RICH: -- take you a different

2 direction now, too.

3 Okay. Out of high school, did you have any

4 inkling that you wanted to go in political science,

5 end up in the White House? I mean, what's the

6 path? What did that look like for another young

7 man to get to where you went?

8 GARRETT ZIEGLER: I did not study political

9 science. I don't like the discipline of political

10 science. I studied economics and I actually only

11 took the bare minimum of econometrics courses. I

12 had no interest in going on to graduate school. I

13 was planning on going to law school.

14 But my interest in undergrad was basically

15 reading about the American system of economics --

16 most prominently articulated by Henry Clay and the

17 other people around the senator back around 1850[].

18 There's a German man named Friedrich List who

19 is actually responsible for talking about the

20 American system. And so I got obsessed with

21 political economy -- why some nations are richer

22 than others, why geopolitics always follows the --

23 you know, why power shifts always follow economics.

24 And so I got -- I got enthralled in that and

25 basically took the bare minimum of -- of

 34

1 econometrics courses; meaning a lot of graduate

2 study in economics today is very arcane, a

3 quantitative bluh [phonetic], and, you know,

4 figuring out basically, you know, income disparity,

5 you know, what -- if -- if a family is Black, on

6 average, does that mean they have one less bedroom.

7 And, you know, it's just a lot of -- a lot of

8 affirmative action-oriented stuff which I have zero

9 interest in.

10 And so I was able to craft my own course of

11 study the final semester of my senior year where

12 I -- I read a lot of Friedrich List, I read a lot

13 of Henry Clay and basically just read old Senate

14 speeches from them.

15 You know, until the Federal Reserve was

16 instituted and the income tax was instituted, our

17 whole government was funded by tariffs. And

18 that's -- that is -- that's what we have to get

19 back to: Extremely high tariffs, low taxes, and it

20 will all work itself out in the end.

21 One of the -- we're talking about Republicans

22 before this. You know, I just got obsessed with

23 political economy. I was wondering why are

24 Republicans so bad? Well, it's because the Koch

25 brothers fund all of these groups to go against our

 35

1 tariff policy because they get one -- you know,

2 they get one auto repair person to say these

3 tariffs are increasing my costs. Well, it's like,

4 yes, but they're actually creating 30,000 more

5 manufacturing jobs. And so there's always these

6 trade-offs.

7 And so over the past, you know, 40 years and

8 especially since you got -- since China joined the

9 WTO, our trade-off has been always lower prices.

10 Always lower prices. And what this has fueled is

11 opioid addiction, family breakdown, et cetera.

12 And so I just became obsessed with it and the

13 quickest way to try to fix that was, you know, to

14 get near the only person talking about it, which

15 was Trump. And so, you know, Trumpism will outlive

16 Trump. If, God forbid, he had a heart attack

17 tomorrow, the ideas that animated his campaign and

18 brought him, you know, 76 million votes, they're

19 going to be -- they're going to be living on.

20 And that's very exciting because what they

21 want to kill is Trumpism even more so than they

22 want to kill Trump; but they can't. Because so

23 many millions of people who get what I just said in

24 their bones. Maybe they can't articulate it, but

25 they know -- they know that the American small

 36

1 towns -- I don't know if you're in Marion right

2 now. I'm sitting in Effingham.

3 You know, so many small towns around Effingham

4 are just drying up and it's -- it's because of

5 those decisions.

6 JOHN ODLE: We are here in Marion, and to be

7 honest with you, Marion has become the sponge --

8 RUSSELL RICH: Yeah.

9 JOHN ODLE: -- from a lot of these smaller

10 towns. So Marion --

11 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Uh-huh.

12 JOHN ODLE: -- while some towns down here

13 are -- are struggling extremely, extremely hard,

14 not only with drugs -- even in my hometown West

15 Frankfort, it's -- it's -- that's -- you know what

16 I mean, that's what it is. It's not the coal

17 mining capital anymore or the furniture capital,

18 now it's the meth capital. And it's hard to hear

19 but Marion, where we're at, luckily, has --

20 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Yeah, same thing with

21 Effingham.

22 RUSSELL RICH: Effingham is --

23 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Effingham has --

24 RUSSELL RICH: -- a nice place.

25 GARRETT ZIEGLER: -- been a sponge for so many

 37

1 small towns around us; and while that, you know,

2 I'm happy for people in Effingham, it's like all

3 these other places are being completely decimated.

4 And you know, these are very, very tough

5 issues. I'm not saying that if we raise the tariff

6 level commensurate to the amount of foreign

7 arbitrage that is going on everything is going to

8 be fine because these things have multigenerational

9 consequences. I'm just saying we're -- we're

10 looking at a -- at a person who's, like, bleeding

11 out and the only idea that I know will stop it and

12 put the fabric in the wound gushing with blood is

13 to get our trade imbalance figured out. And if

14 we get that, a lot of these other problems will not

15 fix -- be fixed overnight but they'll have a way of

16 working themselves out.

17 So I answered your question by telling you

18 which ideas I became obsessed with. I -- I became

19 obsessed with trade and political economy and how

20 that affects, you know, trying to maintain a

21 constitutional republic. Because I think it's very

22 hard. I think with liberalized trade it's going to

23 be hard to keep our form of government intact.

24 RUSSELL RICH: Oh, I agree.

25 So I think you went to work for -- is it

 38

1 Navarro?

2 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Navarro. Yes. Peter

3 Navarro. He --

4 RUSSELL RICH: How --

5 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Yes.

6 RUSSELL RICH: How did you get there?

7 GARRETT ZIEGLER: I -- like I said, I started

8 out as an intern at the White House.

9 RUSSELL RICH: Okay.

10 GARRETT ZIEGLER: I took off the fall semester

11 of my senior year at St. Louis University and got

12 to know him through that. And, so, when I graduated

13 I did a short thing for a semester in Philadelphia,

14 and then after that I went and worked for Peter for

15 two years.

16 And you know, Peter is a heretic. Most people

17 don't believe -- in the political sphere, believe

18 what me and Peter believe. And so I was sort of

19 attracted to that heresy because I, too, don't

20 believe what most think tank and political people

21 believe. I actually believe what my parents

22 believe, which is common sense. Only an academic

23 believes that trading with China has been a good

24 thing. Only a stupid academic or an importer from

25 Walmart, which are functionally the same thing.

 39

1 And you know, with -- with Peter, I found

2 somebody -- he doesn't have any children of his

3 own. He's -- he's turned -- he turns 73 in 10

4 days, on July 15th. And so, you know, older guy,

5 was a professor for 30 years, had a political

6 evolution of his own because he saw what the

7 Chinese trade did after they joined the WTO.

8 Meaning Peter's views before China joined the WTO

9 and Peter's views after China joined the WTO are

10 vastly different. It's just that Peter had the

11 humility to change course based on new facts. A

12 lot of these Republicans don't have that humility

13 and they're very cocky people and they can never

14 admit when they're wrong.

15 And I don't know how they get through marriage

16 with that. May -- most -- maybe some of them --

17 maybe a lot of them have mistresses and they don't

18 really -- they're not really engaged in their

19 marriage, but I don't know how somebody can make it

20 through marriage and not admit when they're wrong.

21 RUSSELL RICH: Well, I -- I think we all have

22 to do that in any friendship or relationship.

23 Let me --

24 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Yes.

25 RUSSELL RICH: -- ask you this: When I was

 40

1 your age --

2 JOHN ODLE: A long time ago.

3 RUSSELL RICH: -- I was --

4 Yeah, a long time ago.

5 -- I was pro-choice.

6 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Mhmm.

7 RUSSELL RICH: Because I had no idea -- and

8 that was the early 70s.

9 JOHN ODLE: What?

10 RUSSELL RICH: Oh, yeah.

11 That -- I just thought it was a clump of

12 cells. We didn't have the technology to know how

13 anything -- it wasn't just woman's rights, it's

14 just that it wasn't even a baby 'til who knows how

15 long.

16 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Yeah.

17 RUSSELL RICH: Where did -- have you always

18 been strong pro-life? Have you evolved into that

19 maybe because of your age, your church background?

20 Maybe because of --

21 GARRETT ZIEGLER: That's a good question.

22 RUSSELL RICH: -- (indiscernible) [TS 43:08]

23 generational, you have so much more knowledge than

24 I had in the early 70s.

25 GARRETT ZIEGLER: I think that's a very good

 41

1 question.

2 I am a -- not a good use case because my

3 pastor -- who's been there for 28 years, he

4 baptized me, he was -- he arrived before I was

5 born, a couple of years before I was born and is

6 still there -- he was adopted. And you know, he

7 was the canonical example of a quote, unquote,

8 "unplanned pregnancy." And he's extremely grateful

9 that his mom was a Baptist who recognized that she

10 couldn't take care of him. And, so, he was adopted

11 by a family who couldn't have a child and, you

12 know, had a great, great childhood and life and now

13 he's affected my life pretty much more than anybody

14 except my parents.

15 And so I was constantly -- I -- he was in

16 constant conversation with me about the best --

17 the -- the scenario that the left always brings up.

18 Right? Beyond the cases for incest -- incest,

19 rape, et cetera, the vast -- which by the way, are

20 less than 1 percent.

21 RUSSELL RICH: Right.

22 GARRETT ZIEGLER: I think the latest data that

23 I've seen it's like 35 percent of aborted children,

24 you know, were aborted because their parents --

25 their mom felt they couldn't8 take care of them

8ahca.myflorida.com/MCHQ/Central_Services/Training_Support/docs/TrimesterByRea

son_2018.pdf
 42

1 economically. And adoption just cuts that down at

2 the knees, right?

3 And so I was, sort of growing up I was always

4 talking about that with him. It's like, you know,

5 my mom was the perfect scenario for, you know --

6 and by the way, abortion was legal in the states

7 before Roe v. Wade, Roe v. Wade just nationalized

8 it. Not all the states of course.

9 RUSSELL RICH: Right.

10 GARRETT ZIEGLER: But it was legal in some9 and

11 there was a big black market for it. So I'm not

12 naive to believe that there's not going to be a

13 black market for abortion because there's human --

14 humans involved and humans sin. But I'm say -- but

15 I will say that, you know, the case that they bring

16 up all the time, which is she can't take care of

17 it, yada, yada, yada -- and I'm not making light of

18 the tough situation, I'm saying yada, yada, yada

19 because their argument is not that good because of

20 the available options for adoption, et cetera, et

21 cetera.

22 And that's not even bringing in the idea of

23 what you said, Russell, which is we now know that

24 the -- the human, it even looks like a human

25 from -- from very -- very, very early on.

9 guttmacher.org/gpr/2003/03/lessons-roe-will-past-be-prologue
 43

1 RUSSELL RICH: Uh-huh.

2 GARRETT ZIEGLER: It's not just, you know, two

3 cells coming together, it's -- it even has the

4 physical manifestation of it.

5 So I -- I think that, you know, I'm humble

6 enough to know that -- I'm not going to pretend

7 that I know how this ends up. I think that the

8 Congress is so -- the left in the United States is

9 so hellbent on this that they're going to try to

10 get a vote in Congress on party lines before --

11 before the midterms to sort of codify it

12 nationally.

13 Because even some scholars -- you mentioned

14 the 70s, some pro-abortion scholars in the 70s

15 recognize, from the jurisprudence standpoint, it

16 wasn't good. Like, let's say you personally loved

17 abortion but you were an honest -- honest

18 constitutional scholar: You realize that it's not

19 in the constitution, you can't read it into the

20 constitution.

21 RUSSELL RICH: Not at all.

22 GARRETT ZIEGLER: That is made -- that

23 argument is made moot if the U.S. Congress passes a

24 law at a national level, you know, passing

25 abortion. Which just means to me, if that happens,

 44

1 we will have, you know, beyond just the stolen

2 election, we will be living in a country that truly

3 loves butchering their problems. The way you solve

4 the problems of life -- and I don't mean little

5 un -- you know, little precious babies are

6 problems, I'm saying that we -- if we vote at a

7 national level about abortion through our

8 congressional representatives, we will make the

9 national statement that the problems of life are

10 dealt with by death, that death is an answer.

11 And that's why you see in the Pacific

12 Northwest all this push for euthanasia, et cetera,

13 et cetera, because that's what these people

14 belief -- believe. Everything can be solved with

15 death.

16 That's what the Chinese believe; 450 million

17 baby girls killed since the One Child policy was

18 instituted, all for economics. They thought that

19 death -- that the problem can be solved with death

20 and it's a terrible culture. It's just so

21 terrible.

22 RUSSELL RICH: The thing with economics -- and

23 this is what I preach back and forth -- is that we

24 need to educate our kids more that if you have

25 premarital sex or have sex, that that produces a

 45

1 baby.

2 JOHN ODLE: We're going to have to -- we're

3 going to have to --

4 RUSSELL RICH: Something -- something is --

5 JOHN ODLE: -- educate? We're going to have

6 to educate people on that?

7 RUSSELL RICH: I think so.

8 JOHN ODLE: Seriously? We do?

9 RUSSELL RICH: Yeah.

10 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Or at least educate them

11 on --

12 JOHN ODLE: You want the government to --

13 GARRETT ZIEGLER: -- the problem.

14 JOHN ODLE: -- educate the children?

15 RUSSELL RICH: I think that most --

16 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Yeah, you're right.

17 RUSSELL RICH: -- the majority of the

18 people --

19 GARRETT ZIEGLER: Once that's aggregated,

20 though, the state --

21 JOHN ODLE: Why would I want the government to

22 teach my child that that is going on? Why would

23 I -- why would I want anybody to teach my child

24 those things? Any -- anybody but me?

25 Listen Garrett, we have -- this is

 46

1 5:00 o'clock. It's rolled around so fast on us,

2 but you promised me you were leaving.

3 GARRETT ZIEGLER: I -- I really appreciate it

4 and hopefully we can do this again if your

5 listeners haven't found me too long-winded.

(Audio concluded. 48:24)