Underlings YouTube Channel

Debate Notes (v.4)

This document contains arguments, comments, suggestions and examples that atheists may find useful as a
study guide and to reference when debating fundamentalist Christians (and many other theists). It is not a
substitute for doing your own research to get a proper basic understanding of science and theology (I've
provided some useful links to more detailed information, but they should not be considered comprehensive).
The Bible is the most effective tool in debating biblical literalists because it is generally the only authoritative
work they trust (particularly the King James and New International versions). So study it.

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov

"A thorough reading and understanding of the Bible is the surest path to atheism." -- Donald Morgan

This document is available as both a web page and a Word document, so you can use whichever version is
more convenient. Feel free to use these notes as you see fit; I only ask that you give the Underlings YouTube
channel credit when possible. To quickly find a topic, either use the links in the table of contents, or use the
search command to find a key word or phrase. The formatting and typography are intentionally simple to
facilitate copy-and-pasting into comment fields. If you have any additional topics or other information you
would like to see added to this document, please post it as a comment on the video where this is introduced:
https://youtu.be/k1xVDmNhzD0

Table of Contents:
EVIDENCE THAT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE IS EVIL:...................................................................................................6
The Ultimate Evil God:........................................................................................................................................6
Defining Evil:....................................................................................................................................................... 6
List of Evil Behaviors:.......................................................................................................................................... 6
Murder and Genocide:.................................................................................................................................... 7
Animal and Human Sacrifice:...........................................................................................................................8
Torture:........................................................................................................................................................... 8
Child Abuse:..................................................................................................................................................... 9
Animal Abuse:............................................................................................................................................... 10
Theft:............................................................................................................................................................. 10
Slavery:.......................................................................................................................................................... 11
Rape:............................................................................................................................................................. 11
Incest:............................................................................................................................................................ 12
Cannibalism:.................................................................................................................................................. 12
Betrayal:........................................................................................................................................................ 12
Lying:............................................................................................................................................................. 13
Megalomania, Sociopathy and Narcissism:...................................................................................................13
Changing the Meaning of the Bible:.............................................................................................................. 14
God admits he commits evil:......................................................................................................................... 14
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The Most Important Context:...........................................................................................................................15

The Critical Consequence ("The Infinite Options Problem"):.........................................................................16
God's Betrayal of Humanity:............................................................................................................................ 16
Adam and Eve Were Framed:........................................................................................................................16
The Pointless Flood:...................................................................................................................................... 17
Faith is Not a Virtue:...................................................................................................................................... 17
God Provided Evidence in the Past:............................................................................................................18
Dead Babies Go to Hell:................................................................................................................................. 18
Heaven is not Paradise:................................................................................................................................. 20
Free Will and the Problem of Evil:.................................................................................................................... 20
God Violates Free Will:.................................................................................................................................. 20
God Determines Everything, Including Who Will Be Saved:..........................................................................21
Other Free Will Problems:............................................................................................................................. 22
Should criminals be prosecuted?...................................................................................................................23
Counters to Common Christian Claims that God is Good:................................................................................23
"God created us."....................................................................................................................................... 23
"The Bible says God is good."..................................................................................................................... 23
"God offers us salvation."...........................................................................................................................23
"Why would God say he was good if he were evil? It's not like we could do anything about it."..............23
"God sacrificed his only son for us."...........................................................................................................24
"God keeps his promises."..........................................................................................................................24
"God gives us plenty of opportunities to expand our list of good deeds so we can achieve salvation."....24
"God could have prevented you from being in a car accident today. You don't know."............................24
"I prayed to God and survived an accident/disease that I had almost no chance of surviving."................24
"God doesn't immediately kill us when we sin."........................................................................................24
"There is beauty in the world."...................................................................................................................24
"Love exists.".............................................................................................................................................. 24
"God loves us like a parent loves a child."..................................................................................................25
"Goodness exists, and therefore there must be an ultimate standard of goodness, which is God.".........25
"God doesn't immediately send us all to hell, even though we deserve it."..............................................25
"Just like darkness is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat, evil is an absence of good and
thus evil is the absence of God."................................................................................................................ 25
"God knows more than we do, thus we cannot judge his actions."...........................................................25
"God defines good, so anything he does is good.".....................................................................................25
"Hundreds of millions of people believe God is good."..............................................................................25
"I intuitively know God is good."................................................................................................................ 25
"I've personally experienced God's love."..................................................................................................25
"Who would want to live in a universe where God is evil?".......................................................................26
"Just believe in God or you'll burn in hell."................................................................................................ 26
"Jesus never committed evil.".................................................................................................................... 26
"God is just."............................................................................................................................................... 26
ADDITIONAL PROBLEMS WITH CHRISTIANITY:....................................................................................................28
Why the Bible cannot be Trusted:....................................................................................................................28
Christian Circular Reasoning:......................................................................................................................30
Jesus May Have Never Existed:........................................................................................................................ 30
Comparing the Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection with that for Julius Caesar Crossing the Rubicon:.............30
Comparing the Evidence for Jesus with that for Santa Claus:........................................................................30
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The Lack of Independent Evidence that Jesus Existed:..................................................................................31

Christianity Didn't Begin with Jesus and His Apostles:.................................................................................. 32
Christianity Wasn't an Overnight Success that Changed the World:.............................................................32
Jesus is a Pagan Hero Stereotype:................................................................................................................. 33
The Failure of Biblical Prophecies:....................................................................................................................34
Examples of failed prophecies:......................................................................................................................34
Mundane or vague prophecies, without specific dates, thus allowing them to be shoehorned into a
variety of historical events:........................................................................................................................ 34
Prophecies never claimed to be prophecies in the first place, or only seem prophetic when improperly
translated or taken out of context of their surrounding text:....................................................................35
Prophecies only fulfilled by their own believers striving to fulfill those prophecies:.................................35
Prophecies written only after the events occurred:...................................................................................35
Prophecies claimed to be fulfilled despite no evidence any prophecy was actually ever made:...............35
Clearly failed prophecies, requiring apologists to water down their meaning and creatively reinterpret
them to fit the facts:...................................................................................................................................36
Failure of Prayer and Faith Healing:................................................................................................................. 37
Consequences to Belief in the Bible:................................................................................................................ 38
Why Christians Should Still Follow the Old Testament Laws:........................................................................38
Why Christians Should Give Away Their Wealth:.......................................................................................... 38
Why Christians Should Hate Their Families:..................................................................................................39
Why Christians Should Obey the Government:.............................................................................................39
Why Christians Should Welcome Foreigners and Refugees:.........................................................................39
Why Public Prayer is Anti-Christian:.............................................................................................................. 40
Why Christians Should Follow the Laws of the Old Testament:....................................................................40
Why Tattoos are Anti-Christian:.................................................................................................................... 40
Why Wearing Blended Fabrics and Planting Multiple Crops is Anti-Christian:..............................................40
Why Many Foods are Anti-Christian:.............................................................................................................40
Why Christmas Trees are Anti-Christian:.......................................................................................................41
Why Christians Should Not Act Holier Than Thou:........................................................................................41
Why It is Wrong to Claim That Belief in God Leads to Moral Behavior:........................................................41
Bible Contradictions:........................................................................................................................................ 42
Is God All Powerful?...................................................................................................................................... 42
Is God Good and Merciful to All?...................................................................................................................42
Has Anyone Seen God?..................................................................................................................................43
Are Christians Saved by Faith and Works, or by Faith Alone?.......................................................................43
Do Christians Sin?.......................................................................................................................................... 44
Does Salvation Require Being Born Again?....................................................................................................44
Did Jesus Abolish the Old Covenant?............................................................................................................ 44
Did the Women Spread the Word About the Empty Tomb?.........................................................................44
What are the Ten Commandments?............................................................................................................. 45
How Did Judas Die?....................................................................................................................................... 45
Did God Really Want the World to Forget Amalek?......................................................................................45
Does the Sun Rotate Around the Earth?........................................................................................................45
Is the Earth Flat with a Dome Marked with Lights?.......................................................................................46
Will Stars Fall from the Sky?.......................................................................................................................... 46
Does God cause confusion?...........................................................................................................................46
Problems with the Kalam Cosmological Argument:.........................................................................................47
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The KCA as proposed by William Lane Craig:.................................................................................................47

Refutations of the KCA:................................................................................................................................. 47
The Counter-KCA:.......................................................................................................................................... 48
The Godless Cosmological Argument:...........................................................................................................48
The Natural Cosmological Argument:............................................................................................................48
Conclusion:.................................................................................................................................................... 48
SOCIAL ISSUES:.................................................................................................................................................... 49
False Christian Perceptions About Atheists:.....................................................................................................49
Atheists are Immoral:.................................................................................................................................... 49
Atheists Hate God:.........................................................................................................................................49
It Takes Faith to be an Atheist:...................................................................................................................... 49
No One is Truly an Atheist:............................................................................................................................ 49
Atheism Cannot Account for Morality:..........................................................................................................50
Hitler was an Atheist:.................................................................................................................................... 51
Atheist Dictators Killed Millions of People:................................................................................................... 52
Atheism Cannot Account for the Laws of Logic:............................................................................................52
The Universe is Too Finely Tuned not to have been Created by God:...........................................................52
It's Better to Believe in God Just in Case he Exists:........................................................................................53
Is the US a Christian Nation?............................................................................................................................ 53
The Positions of Our Founding Fathers:........................................................................................................ 53
Our Legal System and the Ten Commandments:.......................................................................................... 55
1. You shall have no other gods before me:...............................................................................................55
2. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth
beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them:.............................55
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain:...................................................................55
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the
seventh day is a Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work:.....................................55
5. Honor your father and your mother:......................................................................................................55
6. You shall not murder:............................................................................................................................. 56
7. You shall not commit adultery:...............................................................................................................56
8. You shall not steal:................................................................................................................................. 56
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor:.........................................................................56
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male
servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor:............57
Summary of unfortunate potential laws based on the Ten Commandments:...........................................57
Is Abortion Anti-Christian?............................................................................................................................ 57
Are Christian Conservatives on the Right Side of the "Social War"?..............................................................60
Freedom of religion and speech:................................................................................................................60
Slavery:....................................................................................................................................................... 60
Women's rights:......................................................................................................................................... 60
Gay marriage:............................................................................................................................................. 60
Government:.............................................................................................................................................. 61
Are Christians persecuted like Jesus was?.....................................................................................................61
EVOLUTION vs. CREATIONISM:............................................................................................................................61
Understanding Science:....................................................................................................................................62
Fact, Hypothesis, Theory and Law:................................................................................................................62
Is Creationism/Intelligent Design Scientific?................................................................................................. 62
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Can creationists be trusted?.......................................................................................................................65

Is Evolutionary Theory Scientific?..................................................................................................................65
Evidence Supporting Evolutionary Theory:...................................................................................................... 66
Examples of Evidence for Evolution:............................................................................................................. 66
Fossil record:.............................................................................................................................................. 66
Transitional species:................................................................................................................................... 66
Universal genetic code:.............................................................................................................................. 67
Comparative DNA:...................................................................................................................................... 67
Chromosomes:........................................................................................................................................... 67
ERVs:........................................................................................................................................................... 67
Embryology:............................................................................................................................................... 67
Atavisms:.................................................................................................................................................... 67
Vestigial structures:.................................................................................................................................... 68
Bacterial evolution:.................................................................................................................................... 68
Artificial selection:...................................................................................................................................... 68
Phylogenetic Tree:...................................................................................................................................... 68
Abiogenesis:............................................................................................................................................... 69
Examples of Evidence for an Ancient Earth/Universe:..................................................................................69
Dendrochronology:.....................................................................................................................................69
Mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome:....................................................................................................69
Decaying DNA:............................................................................................................................................ 70
Ice cores:.................................................................................................................................................... 70
Rock varnish:.............................................................................................................................................. 70
Fission tracks:............................................................................................................................................. 70
Relativistic jets:...........................................................................................................................................70
Gypsum megacrystals:................................................................................................................................70
Limestone stalactites:.................................................................................................................................70
Lake varves:................................................................................................................................................ 71
Continental drift:........................................................................................................................................ 71
Geomagnetic reversals:.............................................................................................................................. 71
Radiometric decay:..................................................................................................................................... 71
Moon recession:......................................................................................................................................... 72
Asteroid orbits:........................................................................................................................................... 72
Water on Mars:.......................................................................................................................................... 72
Size of the universe:................................................................................................................................... 72
Ancient stars:.............................................................................................................................................. 72
Expansion of the universe:......................................................................................................................... 72
Cosmic microwave background radiation:................................................................................................. 72
Creationist Response:................................................................................................................................. 72
Examples of Evidence Against Intelligent Design:......................................................................................... 73
Recurrent laryngeal nerve:......................................................................................................................... 73
Eye blind spot:............................................................................................................................................ 73
Urethra routed through prostate:..............................................................................................................73
The Kitzmiller v. Dover trial:....................................................................................................................... 73
"Specified complexity":.............................................................................................................................. 75
Peer-reviewed scientific articles:................................................................................................................75
"Of Pandas and People":............................................................................................................................ 75
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Great Quotes:...................................................................................................................................................... 75
Additional References:........................................................................................................................................ 80

EVIDENCE THAT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE IS EVIL:

The Problem of Evil: "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but
not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able
nor willing? Then why call him God?" -- Epicurus

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely." -- John Dalberg-Acton

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things.

The Ultimate Evil God:

If we were to try to imagine the most evil God possible, we might come up with a psychopathic monster who
would predestine his creations to be pointlessly tortured for all eternity. But to be even more cruel, perhaps
this evil God would first have most of those creations live a few relatively pleasant decades, just long enough
to experience love, happiness, joy, and all the other good things in life...only to then snatch it all away and
leave them to be tormented by memories of that life during their eternal suffering. To further accentuate this
betrayal, perhaps this evil God would have promised his creations a heavenly afterlife, contingent upon
following the right religion...but then remained hidden from his creations so well that thousands of conflicting
religions developed, ensuring that the vast majority of his creations would choose the wrong religion and thus
inadvertently damn themselves. And what about those few who DID manage to choose the right religion?
Well, assuming this evil God was a narcissistic megalomaniac, he might allow them to spend eternity
worshipping him, stroking his ego. The thing is, this description of the ultimate evil God fits the God of the
Bible perfectly.

Defining Evil:
If an apologist insists on defining evil as whatever God doesn't like, then point out that morality is about
behavior, not celebrity (and basing morality on whom you are rather than what you do is the ultimate in moral
subjectivity). More importantly, it would force us to come up with another term to use for the abusive
behavior that ranges from bullying to committing atrocities, and you would be arguing that instead. So use a
definition of evil most people can accept: behavior that deliberately and unnecessarily causes harm or
suffering.

List of Evil Behaviors:

Perhaps better than defining evil one's self, ask Christians to list behaviors THEY use to identify evil. Chances
are they will include such behaviors as murder and genocide, animal and human sacrifice, torture, child and
animal abuse, theft, slavery, rape, incest, cannibalism, betrayal, lying, megalomania, sociopathy, narcissism,
etc. Their God claims to hate such behaviors:
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 Proverbs 6:16-19 There are six things the LORD HATES, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a
lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to
rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

Yet God is guilty of committing, ordering and/or condoning all the above behaviors. Here are a few of the
many examples:

Murder and Genocide:

 Genesis 7:18-23 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth ... and all the high mountains under
the entire heavens were covered. ... Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out. [Millions,
perhaps hundreds of millions were killed.]
 Exodus 12:29 At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh,
who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon.
 Exodus 32:27-29 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a
sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother
and friend and neighbor.'" The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of
the people died. Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your
own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day." [God blessed them for murdering their own
friends and families.]
 Deuteronomy 13:6-15 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your
closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" ... do not yield to him or
listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your
hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death,
because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God ... If you hear it said about one of the towns
the Lord your God is giving you to live in that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the
people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" ... then you must inquire, probe
and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been
done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it
completely, both its people and its livestock. [Freedom of religion is a capital offense.]
 Deuteronomy 20:16-17 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an
inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites,
Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the Lord your God has commanded you. [God orders even
babies murdered.]
 1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare
them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. [God
again orders babies murdered.]
 Isaiah 13:15-18 Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be
dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking
hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The
attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless
babies and will show no compassion for the children. [Again God orders babies murdered.]
 Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones. [Even more babies slaughtered.]
 Ezekiel 35:7-9 I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I
will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people
slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will
know that I am the LORD.
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 Ezekiel 9:5-7 "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone
whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all--old and young, girls and women
and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin right here at the Temple." So they began
by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with corpses!
Go!" So they went and began killing throughout the city."

Animal and Human Sacrifice:

 Exodus 20:24 Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship
offerings, your sheep and goats and your cattle.
 Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the
shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
 Leviticus 1:9 It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD. [God likes the
smell of burning flesh?]
 Judges 11:30-39 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands,
whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites
will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." Then Jephthah went over to fight the
Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. ... When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah,
who should come out to meet him but his daughter ... and he did to her as he had vowed. [God allowed an
innocent girl to be sacrificed for him.]
 Exodus 13:1-2 The Lord said to Moses, "Consecrate to me every firstborn male. The first offspring of every
womb among the Israelites belongs to me, whether human or animal." [Most academic scholars of early
Judaism believe that firstborn sons were sacrificed to God:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/atheology/2015/11/the-legacy-of-child-sacrifice-in-early-judaism-and-
christianity/]
 Leviticus 27:28-9 But nothing that a person owns and devotes to the LORD--whether a human being or an
animal or family land--may be sold or redeemed; everything so devoted is most holy to the LORD. No
person devoted to destruction may be ransomed; they are to be put to death.
 Ezekiel 20:25-26 So I gave them other statutes that were not good and laws through which they could not
live; I defiled them through their gifts--the sacrifice of every firstborn--that I might fill them with horror so
they would know that I am the Lord.
 Deuteronomy 13:15-17 You must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all
the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the open square and burn it. Burn the
entire town as a burnt offering to the Lord your God. ... Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger and
be merciful to you. [God orders human sacrifice.]
 Genesis 22:2-10 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region
of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about." ...
Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the
altar, on top of the wood. Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. [Abraham
wasn't shocked that God would order a human sacrifice. The angel who stops the sacrifice in Genesis
22:11-15 may be an addition, since Genesis 22:16-17 says "Because you have done this and not withheld
your son," implying Isaac WAS sacrificed, and Genesis 22:19 says "Then Abraham returned to his
servants”--no mention of Isaac.]
 Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ
once for all. [God refused to forgive humanity unless his own son was murdered.]
 John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son.
 Ephesians 5:2 Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
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Torture:
 Revelation 9:5-6 They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And
the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. During those days
men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
 Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those
who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
[People being sent to hell simply for not believing God exists.]
 Matthew 13:40-42 As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin
and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and
gnashing of teeth.
 Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has
authority to throw you into HELL. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
 Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with
two hands to go into HELL, where the fire never goes out. [So if your genitals cause you to stumble…?]
 Luke 16:22-28 The time came when the beggar [Lazarus] died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s
side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw
Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and
send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' But
Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus
received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us
and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that THOSE WHO WANT TO GO FROM HERE TO YOU
CANNOT, NOR CAN ANYONE CROSS OVER FROM THERE TO US.' He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send
Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this
place of torment.' [Suffering in hell with no redemption]
 Revelation 14:9-11 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and
its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God's
fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning
sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise
FOREVER. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone
who receives the mark of its name." [Evidence for an eternal hell.]
 Revelation 20:10-15 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where
the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night FOR EVER AND
EVER. ... The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. ... If anyone's
name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. [More evidence for an
eternal hell.]
 Matthew 25:41-46 Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the
eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was
thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes
and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me." They also will answer,
"Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did
not help you?" He will reply, "Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did
not do for me." Then they will go away to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous to eternal life. [Even
more evidence for an eternal hell]
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Child Abuse:
 Genesis 22:2-10 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region
of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about." ...
Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the
altar, on top of the wood. Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. [Psychological
abuse.]
 Isaiah 13:16-18 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and
their wives violated. See, I will stir up against them the Medes ... Their bows will strike down the young
men; they will have no mercy on infants, nor will they look with compassion on children.
 1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare
them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"
 2 Samuel 12:13-18 "The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this
you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die." The Lord struck the child that
Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill. David pleaded with God for the child. ... On the
seventh day the child died.
 2 Kings 2:23-24 And as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and
mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and
looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the
wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
 Proverbs 23:13-14 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall
not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
 Mark 7:9-10 "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own
traditions! For Moses said, 'Honor your father and mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses their father or
mother is to be put to death.'"
 Numbers 31:17-18 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for
yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. [Murder and sexual abuse.]
 Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he
must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his
property. [Children were taken as slaves, and thus could be brutalized.]

Animal Abuse:
 Joshua 11:6 The LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid of them, because by this time tomorrow I will hand
all of them over to Israel, slain. You are to hamstring their horses and burn their chariots." [A particularly
slow, cruel way for horses to die.]
 2 Peter 2:12 They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and
destroyed, and like animals they too will perish. [Animals are only to be caught and destroyed.]
 1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare
them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"
 Genesis 7:18-23 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth. ... Every living thing on the face of
the earth was wiped out. [Drowning is a terrifying way to die.]

Theft:
 Deuteronomy 20:10-15 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they
accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If
they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God
delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 11

and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder
the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a
distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
 Numbers 31:25-27 The Lord said to Moses, "You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the
community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. Divide the spoils equally between
the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community."
 Joshua 8:27 But Israel did carry off for themselves the livestock and plunder of this city, as the Lord had
instructed Joshua.
 Isaiah 13:18 Their houses will be looted and their wives violated.
 Luke 19:30-35 "Go to the village ahead of you, and as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no
one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. ... Those who were sent ahead went and found it just as he
had told them. As they were untying the colt, its owners asked them, "Why are you untying the colt?" They
replied, "The Lord needs it." They brought it to Jesus. [Jesus steals.]

Slavery:
 Leviticus 25:44-46 Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you
may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their
clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as
inherited property and can make them slaves for life.
 Exodus 21:7 If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. [It's okay to
sell your daughter into slavery.]
 Deuteronomy 20:10-11 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they
accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.
 1 Peter 2:18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good
and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
 Ephesians 6:5-7 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as
you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of
Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not
people.
 Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he
must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his
property. [For those who think biblical slavery wasn't horrific.]
 Numbers 31:17-18 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for
yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. [Only virginal girls get to live, but they were forced
into sexual slavery.]

Rape:
 Numbers 31:17-18 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for
yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. [Only virginal girls get to live, but they were forced
into sexual slavery.]
 Exodus 21:10-11 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and
marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of
money. [For those who claim girl slaves became brides, it meant nothing because they could still be used
and discarded.]
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 Genesis 19:8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you,
and you can do what you like with them. [Offer made by Lot, whom God considered "just" and
"righteous."]
 2 Samuel 12:11 This is what the LORD says: "Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon
you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie
with your wives in broad daylight." [Raped in public.]
 Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her
and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he
has violated her. [A rape victim must marry her rapist.]
 Isaiah 13:16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their
wives violated.

Incest:
 Genesis 19:36 So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father. [Lot was considered a "just"
and "righteous" man.]
 Genesis 3:20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living. [God
required people to commit incest.]
 Genesis 9:1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and
fill the earth." [Again God required people to commit incest.]

Cannibalism:
 Jeremiah 19:9 I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters. [God threatened to force people
to eat their own children.]
 Deuteronomy 28:53 You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your
God has given you. [Again God threatened to force people to eat their own children.]
 Leviticus 26:27-29 But if, despite this, you disobey me, and continue hostile to me, I will continue hostile to
you in fury; I in turn will punish you myself sevenfold for your sins. You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and
you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. [And once again.]
 John 6:53-59 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink
his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will
raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh
and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of
the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from
heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever." [The basis
for Catholic transubstantiation, and creepy whether meant literally or not.]

Betrayal:
 Exodus 10:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of
his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them." [So much for the supposed
importance of God not violating free will.]
 Romans 5:13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against
anyone's account where there is no law. [God punished Adam and Eve and drowned the world before
there was law. So much for a just God.]
 Romans 9:17-18 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might
display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 13

mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. [God created
Pharaoh so he could show off.]
 Romans 11:8 As it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could
not hear, to this very day." [God prevented people from seeing the truth.]
 Ezekiel 20:25-26 I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; I let
them become defiled through their gifts--the sacrifice of every firstborn--that I might fill them with horror
so they would know that I am the LORD.
 Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will
surely die." [They had no knowledge of good and evil, so could not have known it was evil to disobey God
or that dying was not good.]
 Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."
[Only after they ate the fruit.]
 1 Peter 5:8 Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for
someone to devour. [God unleashed Satan on humanity to deceive us.]

Lying:
 Genesis 22:2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of
Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about." [God lied
about wanting Abraham to sacrifice his son.]
 Genesis 8:21 Never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
 2 Peter 3:10-11 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the
elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. ... everything will be
destroyed in this way. [God promised to never again destroy the Earth with a flood...so he'll destroy it with
fire instead. That's called lying by omission.]
 1 Kings 22:23 So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. [God
forces people to lie.]
 2 Thessalonians 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
[Again.]
 Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that
prophet. [And again.]
 Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are
ravening wolves. [God causes false prophets to lie, and thus he is the ravening wolf.]

Megalomania, Sociopathy and Narcissism:

Why would a GOOD God have ANY interest in being feared and worshiped? The desire to instill fear and be
worshiped are symptoms of megalomania and sociopathic narcissism, personality traits common to the most
evil people in history, NEVER with anyone we would call good.

 Megalomania is the "obsession with the exercise of power, especially in the domination of others."
 Sociopathy is "persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited,
egotistical traits."
 Narcissism is "extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for
admiration."
 Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display
my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
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 Exodus 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me.

 Exodus 20:7 You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
 Exodus 20:5 I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to
the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.
 Psalm 95:3 For the LORD is the great God, the great King above all gods. [James 4:16-17 "But as it is, you
boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and
does not do it, to him it is sin." Pot. Kettle. Black.]
 Revelation 4:8-11: Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around,
even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who
was, and is, and is to come."
 Revelation 19:4-5 The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who
was seated on the throne. And they cried: "Amen, Hallelujah!" Then a voice came from the throne, saying:
"Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, both great and small!" [Who was on the throne?
God. Where did the voice come from? Whoever was on the throne.]
 Philippians 2:10-11 So that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and
on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of
God the Father. [No choice here.]
 Hebrews 1:2-4 But in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things,
and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact
representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. ... So he became as much superior
to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
 John 11:1 But when Jesus heard this, He said, "This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God,
so that the Son of God may be glorified by it."
 John 13:31-32 When he was gone, Jesus said, "Now the Son of Man is glorified and God is glorified in him.
If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once."
 Genesis 6:6-7 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply
troubled. So the Lord said, "I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created--and with
them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground."
 Ezekiel 35:7-9 I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I
will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people
slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will
know that I am the LORD.

If all these examples of God's evil behavior fail to convince someone he's evil, then ask, "What acts WOULD
God have to commit in order for you to consider him evil?" If the answer is NOTHING...then they can't claim to
be a person capable of making sound moral judgments, can they?

Changing the Meaning of the Bible:

If apologists try to add to the Bible in order to resolve any of the above problems, remind them of:

 Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God is flawless. ... DO NOT ADD TO HIS WORDS, or he will rebuke you and
prove you a liar.
 Deuteronomy 4:2 DO NOT ADD TO WHAT I COMMAND YOU AND DO NOT SUBTRACT FROM IT, but keep
the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
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God admits he commits evil:

Some later translations use equally bad euphemisms for evil, like "calamity" and "disaster":

 Isaiah 45:7 I make peace, and create evil: I the  Jeremiah 26:3 Then I will relent and not bring on
LORD do all these things. them the DISASTER.
 2 Samuel 12:11-12 YHWH (Yahweh), 'Behold, I will  Jeremiah 26:13 YHWH(Yahweh) will repent of the
raise up EVIL against you. EVIL.
 1 Kings 14:10 therefore behold, I will bring EVIL  Jeremiah 36:3 Judah will hear all the EVIL which I
upon the house of Jerobo'am. intend to do to them.
 1 Kings 21:29 In his son's days I will bring EVIL.  Jeremiah 32:42 YHWH (Yahweh): Just as I have
 2 Kings 21:12 I am bringing upon Jerusalem and brought all this great EVIL.
Judah such EVIL.  Jeremiah 35:17 YHWH (Yahweh), all the EVIL that
 2 Chronicles 34:24 Thus says YHWH (Yahweh), I have pronounced.
Behold, I will bring EVIL.  Jeremiah 36:31 All the EVIL that I have
 2 Chronicles 34:28 your eyes shall not see all the pronounced against them.
EVIL which I will bring upon.  Jeremiah 40:2 YHWH (Yahweh) pronounced this
 Job 2:10 Shall we receive good at the hand of EVIL against this place.
God, shall we not receive EVIL?  Jeremiah 42:10 I repent of the EVIL which I did to
 Job 42:11 Comforted him for all the EVIL that you.
Yahweh had brought upon him.  Jeremiah 42:17 From the EVIL which I will bring
 Proverbs16:4 YHWH (Yahweh) has made all for upon them.
His purpose, the day of EVIL.  Jeremiah 44:2 You have seen all the EVIL that I
 Isaiah 31:2 And He also [is] wise, and bringeth in brought upon Jerusalem.
EVIL.  Jeremiah 45:5 I am bringing EVIL upon all flesh,
 Jeremiah 11:11 Thus says YHWH (Yahweh), says YHWH. (Yahweh)
Behold, I am bringing EVIL.  Jeremiah 49:37 I will bring EVIL upon them, my
 Jeremiah 14:16 And I have poured out upon them fierce anger, says YHWH.
this EVIL.  Jeremiah 51:64 Babylon shall sink because of the
 Jeremiah 18:11 Behold, I am shaping EVIL against EVIL that I bring upon her.
you.  Ezekiel 6:10 YHWH (Yahweh); I have not said in
 Jeremiah 19:3 I am bringing such EVIL upon this vain that I would do this EVIL.
place.  Amos 3:6 Does EVIL befall a city, unless YHWH
 Jeremiah 19:15 Thus says YHWH (Yahweh) all the (Yahweh) has done it?
EVIL that I have pronounced.  Micah 1:12 Because EVIL has come down from
 Jeremiah 23:12 For I will bring EVIL upon them in YHWH (Yahweh).
the year of their punishment.  Micah 2:3 YHWH (Yahweh): Behold, against this
family I am devising EVIL.

An interesting addition is that the Bible appears to indicate that Jesus is actually Satan, because Lucifer is the
"Morning Star" and Lucifer became Satan:

Revelation 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and
the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 16

The Most Important Context:

When evaluating God's actions, the MOST important context to keep in mind is the claim that he is all
powerful and all knowing:

 Matthew 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God ALL THINGS ARE
POSSIBLE."
 Job 42:2 I know that YOU CAN DO ALL THINGS; no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
 Revelation 19:6 For our Lord God ALMIGHTY reigns.
 Jeremiah 32:27 I am the LORD, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?
 1 John 3:20 God is greater than our hearts, and HE KNOWS EVERYTHING.
 Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: HIS UNDERSTANDING IS INFINITE.
 Job 37:16 those wonders of him who has PERFECT KNOWLEDGE.

That claim causes all God's actions to be optional, never necessary, because by definition he could arrange
events to avoid having to commit atrocities:

The Critical Consequence ("The Infinite Options Problem"):

If God is all powerful, then BY DEFINITION he could have created any of an infinite variety of universes. If he is
all knowing, then BY DEFINITION he was aware of everything about all those universes. Some of those
universes had to have included all possible variations on this universe, including all those where individuals
made different choices from people in this universe (that MUST be true if it's possible for people to make
choices, regardless of whether free will exists or not). At least one of those universes had to have been one
where Lucifer never rebelled against God, where Adam and Eve never disobeyed God, where mankind never
became wicked, and nobody would ever need to be sent to hell. God COULD have chosen one of those
universes to create, but he didn't. He chose THIS one, which means he DELIBERATELY engineered a universe
where he KNEW everything would go wrong.

On top of that, God designed the rules of the universe so that original sin would be INHERITED, rather than
based on each individual's behavior, thus insuring that all humanity would be damned BY DEFAULT, with the
only escape being to beg God for forgiveness. That makes God ENTIRELY responsible for everything that has
happened to humanity. Yet he blames US for his failures and will send BILLIONS of people who don't accept his
"gift" to hell. Therefore, by any rational standard, God is evil.

God's Betrayal of Humanity:

Adam and Eve Were Framed:
Apart from the "critical consequence" above, God framed humanity by first making Adam and Eve unaware of
good and evil, then putting them in the Garden of Eden with the serpent and the Tree of Knowledge of Good
and Evil. A&E could not have known it was evil to disobey God or that the serpent could lie until AFTER they
ate the fruit, so they had no way to avoid assuming the serpent was telling the truth (the logical assumption
from anyone unfamiliar with lying would be that circumstances had changed, and NOW it was safe to eat the
fruit). Catch-22. Being all knowing, God KNEW all this would happen. Yet not only did he do NOTHING to avoid
the problem, his reaction was OVER-THE-TOP vindictive:
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 17

 Genesis 2:16-17 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will
certainly die."
 Genesis 3:4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman.
 Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He
must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
 Genesis 3:16-24 I will make your pains in childbearing very severe ... Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you. ... Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food
from it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you ... So the Lord God banished him
from the Garden of Eden.
 Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this
way death came to all people.

Furthermore, the Bible clearly states that no matter what people plan, it's God's plan that always prevails:

 Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.
 Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
 Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.
 Proverbs 20:24 A person's steps are directed by the LORD.
 Romans 8:7-8 Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the
law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
 Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who
works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.
 Jeremiah 10:23 LORD, I know that people's lives are not their own; it is not for them to direct their steps.
 Isaiah 14:27 For the LORD Almighty has PURPOSED, and who can thwart him?
 Job 42:1-2 Then Job answered the LORD and said, "I know that You can do all things, And that NO
PURPOSE OF YOURS CAN BE THWARTED."
 Psalm 37:23 A man's steps are established by the LORD, and the LORD delights in his way.

Since A&E consuming the fruit RADICALLY changed their future and the future of all humanity, and "a person's
steps are directed by the Lord" and "no purpose of God's can be thwarted," then the only logical conclusion is
that God INTENDED A&E to eat the fruit and be kicked out of the garden. Otherwise it would have been
impossible for them to completely thwart his plans.

The Pointless Flood:

God then allowed sin to fill the world and for human populations to multiply into the millions to hundreds of
millions. Then he drowned the entire world and started over again with Noah and his family. He could have
STARTED creation with Noah and avoided genocide:

 Genesis 7:18-23 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth ... and all the high mountains under
the entire heavens were covered. ... Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out.
 Genesis 7:1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have
found you righteous in this generation."
 Genesis 9:1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and
fill the earth."
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 18

Faith is Not a Virtue:

When it comes to religion, faith is belief without evidence, or even despite evidence to the contrary:

 Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. [In
other words, confidence in and assurance of that for which there is no evidence]
 Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must
believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. [In other words, belief must
precede evidence that God exists]
 James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is
driven and tossed by the wind. [In other words, your confidence and assurance must be without doubt]
 Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The
righteous shall live by faith." [In other words, believe with confidence, assurance and no doubt, despite no
evidence for God]
 Matthew 21:21 Jesus replied, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do
what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and
it will be done." [Try that and you know you will fail…but still, don't doubt?]
 Matthew 4:7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" [In other
words, do not demand evidence]
 Luke 4:12 Jesus answered, "It is said: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" [Again, do not demand
evidence]
 Deuteronomy 6:16 Do not put the LORD your God to the test as you did at Massah. [And one last time]

But faith is NOT a virtue because it is unreliable and virtually GUARANTEED to lead to false beliefs. Because
God remains so well hidden that there is no credible evidence he exists, THOUSANDS of mutually
contradictory religions have developed. Within Christianity alone there are over 40,000 denominations, many
of which contradict one another and teach vastly different lessons. All of them are based on faith. If God
revealed himself to every person on Earth directly so there was no confusion, there would only be ONE
religion. Only THEN would people be able to make an informed decision about whether to follow God. Instead
we have billions of people who sincerely WANT to follow the "true" religion but are statistically almost
guaranteed to choose the wrong one, resulting in unjust damnation.

God Provided Evidence in the Past:

Furthermore, there were many cases where God was quite willing to provide evidence for his existence. Jesus
turned water into wine, walked on water, healed the sick, raised the dead, showed doubting Thomas his
wounds, etc. as evidence of his divinity to his followers. God temporarily gave Moses leprosy and turned his
staff into a snake. When Gideon demanded three pieces of evidence, God provided them to him. And to
convince a large crowd of prophets from other faiths, he gave them a spectacular display of flame from the sky
to immolate a slaughtered bull. So evidently faith isn't necessary for belief, yet if God exists he refuses to
provide the same level of evidence to today's skeptics that he provided in biblical times. (More:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2016/12/11/the-god-who-performs-party-tricks/)

Dead Babies Go to Hell:

Each and every day, tens of thousands of children die in agony from DISEASE AND STARVATION
(http://www.globalissues.org/article/715/today-21000-children-died-around-the-world). Even if every person
on Earth immediately did everything he or she could to save those tens of thousands of children who will die
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 19

TOMORROW, it's too late to save more than a tiny fraction of them because they are simply too far gone or
live too far from proper medical help. The ONLY person who could possibly alleviate their suffering and save
their lives is God--assuming he exists. And yet he does absolutely NOTHING to help them. Apologists often
claim this is okay because those babies automatically go to heaven. However, the Bible doesn't support this
claim. Instead it says that we are all BORN sinful:

 Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
 Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
 Romans 3:10-12 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who
understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good, not even one."
 Luke 18:19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone."
 Psalm 58:3 Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.

And it says that the ONLY way to salvation is by being BORN AGAIN:

 John 3:3-18 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, NO ONE CAN SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD UNLESS THEY ARE
BORN AGAIN." ... WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM IS NOT CONDEMNED, but whoever does not believe stands
condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Since babies and young children are too young to understand the concept of God, much less believe in him or
choose to follow him, if they die they will go to hell to be tortured for all eternity. Of course, this is completely
unacceptable to Christians who believe God is good, so some apologists evoke the "age of accountability" and
insist dead babies get a FREE PASS to heaven. But the age of accountability exists NOWHERE in the Bible,
something Christians themselves concede: http://www.gotquestions.org/age-of-accountability.html. Worse,
consider the implications of this free pass to heaven. Clearly, the Bible says few adults will be saved:

 Luke 13:23-24 And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to
them, "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be
able."
 Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to
destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that
leads to life, and there are few who find it."
 Matthew 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."
 Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by
the sea, only the remnant will be saved."

So if only a small number of adults will be saved, but 100% of dead babies will be saved, then there is
theological justification for murdering as many babies as possible. Although there is the commandment not to
kill, the Bible also says that God wants EVERY soul to be saved:

 1 Timothy 2:3-4 God our Savior, WHO DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of
the truth.
 2 Peter 3:9 Instead [the Lord] is patient with you, NOT WANTING ANYONE TO PERISH, but everyone to
come to repentance.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 20

Thus, murdering babies would help achieve God's goal of saving as many souls as possible. Even though he
might condemn the murders, it wouldn't matter because all you would have to do is ask for forgiveness and be
saved, since the ONLY unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit:

 Matthew 12:31-32 And so I tell you, EVERY KIND OF SIN AND SLANDER CAN BE FORGIVEN, but blasphemy
against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven,
but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
 Mark 3:28-29 Truly I tell you, PEOPLE CAN BE FORGIVEN ALL THEIR SINS AND EVERY SLANDER THEY UTTER,
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.
 Luke 12:8-10 And EVERYONE WHO SPEAKS A WORD AGAINST THE SON OF MAN WILL BE FORGIVEN, but
anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Thus, God has set up a system whereby dead babies go to hell, or there is theological justification for
murdering as many babies as you can. Either way, God is evil.

Heaven is not Paradise:

All the redeemed will be sent to live in a 1500 mile cube made of pure gold on a new Earth with no oceans:

 Revelation 21:1 I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed
away, and there was no longer any sea.
 Revelation 21:16-18 The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he
measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal. ... and
the city was pure gold, like clear glass.

People won't be able to sin in heaven:

 Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or
deceitful.
 Revelation 22:3 No longer will there be any curse.

Since apologists claim that sin is the necessary consequence of free will, that would mean everyone will LOSE
THEIR FREE WILL in heaven. (So what is the POINT of having ever had free will in the first place?). Furthermore,
their MEMORIES of life on this Earth WILL BE ERASED, which means they won't even remember their friends
and family:

 Isaiah 65:17 "See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind."

At least one apparently keeps one's memories in hell:

 Luke 16:25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,
while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony."

What those in heaven will do is worship God for all eternity:

 Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and
serve him only.'"
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 21

 Revelation 22:3 The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.

Free Will and the Problem of Evil:

Christianity needs free will to exist, because if God predetermines everything and people do not have free will,
then God is at fault and humans cannot be held responsible for their actions. Free will is also necessary to
explain the problem of evil. So Christians attempt to exonerate God for not stopping evil by claiming our free
will cannot be violated. They say he gives us free will so that we can choose to believe in and love him,
because he doesn't want robots. But there are major problems with this claim:

God Violates Free Will:

 Acts 4:27-28 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in
this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. THEY DID WHAT YOUR POWER
AND WILL HAD DECIDED BEFOREHAND SHOULD HAPPEN.
 Romans 9:16-18 IT DOES NOT, THEREFORE, DEPEND ON HUMAN DESIRE OR EFFORT, BUT ON GOD'S
MERCY. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power
in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he
wants to have mercy, and HE HARDENS WHOM HE WANTS TO HARDEN.
 Exodus 4:21 But I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART so that he will not let the people go.
 Exodus 10:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I HAVE HARDENED HIS HEART and the
hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them." [God deliberately
violated someone's will simply so he could show off.]
 Joshua 11:20 For it was THE LORD HIMSELF WHO HARDENED THEIR HEARTS to wage war against Israel, so
that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded
Moses.
 John 12:39-40 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: “HE HAS BLINDED
THEIR EYES AND HARDENED THEIR HEARTS, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with
their hearts, nor turn.”
 Proverbs 21:1 In the Lord's hand the king's heart is a stream of water THAT HE CHANNELS TOWARD ALL
WHO PLEASE HIM.
 Psalm 33:10 THE LORD FOILS THE PLANS of the nations; HE THWARTS the purposes of the peoples.
 Psalm 105:24-25 The Lord made his people very fruitful; he made them too numerous for their foes,
WHOSE HEARTS HE TURNED TO HATE HIS PEOPLE, to conspire against his servants.

God Determines Everything, Including Who Will Be Saved:

NOWHERE in the Bible does it say free will exists, or that the choices we think we're making are our own. In
fact, it says the exact opposite, clearly stating that God plans EVERYTHING, including our very steps:

 Proverbs 16:4 THE LORD WORKS OUT EVERYTHING to its proper end--even the wicked for the day of
disaster. [He doesn't just determine SOME things, he determines "EVERYTHING," including what the
wicked do.]
 Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but THE LORD ESTABLISHES THEIR STEPS. [God
even determines our very steps!]
 Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its EVERY DECISION IS FROM THE LORD.
 Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a person's heart, but IT IS THE LORD'S PURPOSE THAT PREVAILS.
 Proverbs 20:24 A person's steps are DIRECTED by the LORD.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 22

 Ephesians 1:5 He PREDESTINED us for adoption to sonshipthrough Jesus Christ, IN ACCORDANCE WITH HIS
PLEASURE AND WILL.
 Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of HIM WHO
WORKS OUT EVERYTHING in conformity with the purpose of his will.
 Jeremiah 10:23 LORD, I know that people's lives are not their own; it is not for them to direct their steps.
 Jeremiah 43:11 He will come and attack Egypt, bringing death to those destined for death, captivity to
those DESTINED for captivity, and the sword to those DESTINED for the sword.
 Jeremiah 13:23 Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are
accustomed to doing evil.
 Psalm 37:23 A man's steps are established by the LORD, and the LORD delights in his way. [Only an evil
God would delight in establishing a man's steps to take the wrong path.]
 Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me WERE WRITTEN in your book
before one of them came to be.
 John 6:44 No one can come to me UNLESS the Father who sent me draws them. [That means only God
decides who will be saved and who won't.]
 John 6:37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
[If God decides to save you, you WILL be saved, no choice.]
 Romans 8:7-8 Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the
law of God, for it is NOT EVEN ABLE TO DO SO, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
 Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath
subjected the same in hope.
 Romans 9:19-21 "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?' On the
contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder,
'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the
same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?"
 Isaiah 14:27 For the LORD Almighty has PURPOSED, and who can thwart him?
 Isaiah 37:26 Have you not heard? Long ago I ordained it. IN DAYS OF OLD I PLANNED IT; now I have
brought it to pass.
 Amos 3:6 Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it? [People don't cause disaster unless
God makes them do it.]
 Job 42:1-2 Then Job answered the LORD and said, "I know that You can do all things, And that NO
PURPOSE OF YOURS CAN BE THWARTED."
 2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but
according to his own purpose and grace, WHICH WAS GIVEN US IN CHRIST JESUS BEFORE THE WORLD
BEGAN.
 Acts 13:48 and ALL WHO WERE APPOINTED for eternal life believed. [Those who come to believe in God
were appointed to do so.]

Other Free Will Problems:

 By not violating the free will of CRIMINALS, God allows criminals to violate the free will of their VICTIMS.
Would a GOOD God side with criminals or their victims?
 God could have created us capable of making choices and experiencing love without having the capacity to
commit ATROCITIES (after all, sane, civilized people already couldn't even imagine raping and murdering
their own families, and God could expand that instinct to cover all humanity). Furthermore, Christians
claim JESUS was without sin and that he had free will...which means it is possible for God to create sinless,
free-willed beings, but simply didn't.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 23

 BELIEF is not a choice (try to will yourself to believe in Santa Claus or Darth Vader). Even the Bible evidently
agrees:
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them."
 Love (along with every other emotion) is not a choice (try to will yourself to fall in love with someone you
dislike).
 Those who go to heaven won't have the freedom to commit sin, so evidently free will isn't all that
important to God:
Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or
deceitful.
Revelation 22:3 No longer will there be any curse.
 Nowhere in the Bible does it say free will exists. Sure, it mentions many examples of people making
CHOICES, but animals and even computer programs can make choices without possessing free will. There
are numerous verses that refer to "freewill offerings," but since "freewill" is never defined and the Bible
says God determines everything, "freewill" clearly cannot mean how we define it: "the power to act
without the constraint of necessity or fate." Another definition of "freewill" is "given readily," which would
fit with the concept of "freewill offerings" without requiring someone to possess free will.
 Many Christians (e.g., Calvinists) accept the evidence that ONLY God chooses whom will be saved.
 If God is all-knowing, then he knows exactly what he will ever do, and is powerless to change it…since if he
would ever change his mind, he would already know that. That means God can't have free will. And if God
can't have free will, it's unlikely we do:
Psalm 94:9 Does he who fashioned the ear not hear? Does he who formed the eye not see?
 Matter behaves mechanistically, and our brains are matter. Even though quantum mechanics allows for
random behavior, it doesn't imply free will because the randomness is TRULY random, not subject to our
will, and observation has no evident effect on the macro scale.
 fMRI scans can detect decisions up to ten seconds BEFORE we think we are making certain free will
decisions. Such decisions evidently occur UNCONSCIOUSLY, and are only LATER imposed upon our
conscious minds with only the PERCEPTION that we have made a conscious choice. (More:
http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-
decide)
 People convince themselves that they are making correct free will choices even in tests where a free will
decision isn't possible. (More: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/free-will-could-all-be-an-
illusion-scientists-suggest-after-study-that-shows-choice-could-just-be-a7008181.html)
 People who read information challenging the existence of free will prior to taking a test are more likely to
cheat on that test. Since morality is necessary for the success of all social species, and humans are among
the most social of social species, the PERCEPTION of free will may have evolved as a mechanism to
increase moral behavior. Better to live with the ILLUSION that free will exists if it increases the survival of
the species. (More: https://assets.csom.umn.edu/assets/91974.pdf)
 More: http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_freewill.html

Should criminals be prosecuted?

Even if we are essentially robots, slaves to a complex mix of cause and effect, we still have motivations and we
still want to live in safe, friendly societies. Rewarding good behavior and punishing bad behavior contributes to
the cause and effect that results in the world we want to live in.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 24

Counters to Common Christian Claims that God is Good:

"God created us."
Except that in addition to the problem with his generosity as I just mentioned, if God created us in order to
torment us as I describe in my video "What the Ultimate Evil God Would be Like," then creating us wouldn't be
an act of goodness at all, would it?

"The Bible says God is good."

If the Bible is the word of God, and God is evil, would he have any problem lying about being good?

"God offers us salvation."

The very concept of sin comes from God, and he offers to save us from a problem of his own making. It is like
someone poisoning you and then offering you the antidote...for a price.

"Why would God say he was good if he were evil? It's not like we could do anything about
it."
Surely an evil God would delight in deceiving people, building up their hopes and dreams...only to crush them.
Mental abuse can be even more cruel than physical abuse.

"God sacrificed his only son for us."

A truly evil God would have no problem killing his own son either. And resurrecting a sacrifice negates the
entire point of a sacrifice, which is that you give up something. Also, God could have forgiven humanity
without requiring Jesus to be murdered:
 Jeremiah 31:34 "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more"
 Isaiah 43:25 "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your
sins no more."

"God keeps his promises."

There's no way of knowing if he does until after you die. He could send everyone to hell, for all we know.

"God gives us plenty of opportunities to expand our list of good deeds so we can achieve
salvation."
You can just as easily claim God gives us the opportunities to expand our list of evil deeds so we will be
damned.

"God could have prevented you from being in a car accident today. You don't know."
If there's no way to know, that means there's no evidence, thus making this an "argument from ignorance"
fallacy. Besides, what happens if you do get in a car accident? Wouldn't that mean God deliberately caused
that accident and is thus evil?

"I prayed to God and survived an accident/disease that I had almost no chance of surviving."
"Almost" means some people do survive, and Christians don't have any better survival rates than people who
don't pray to God.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 25

"God doesn't immediately kill us when we sin."

One could use the same argument for why God is evil. After all, is it good to let someone freely commit
atrocities his entire life, only to have him turn to Christ in the end and be absolved of all his sins? Also, an all-
knowing God had to have known humanity would sin, yet he did nothing to prevent it. Instead, he creates us
all worthy of nothing but contempt:
 Isaiah 64:6 "We are all like one who is unclean, all our so-called righteous acts are like a menstrual rag in
your sight. We all wither like a leaf; our sins carry us away like the wind.
 Mark 10:18 "And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.""

"There is beauty in the world."

There is ugliness in the world too, which would thus be evidence God is evil, right? Would a good God create
parasites that require as part of their life cycle to cause harm and suffering to animals and humans? (More:
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/mark.woods.stephen.fry.eye.worms.and.bone.cancer.how.christians.c
an.still.believe.in.the.goodness.of.god/47259.htm)

"Love exists."
One could counter that by saying God is evil because hate exists. Besides, wouldn't a truly evil God delight in
maximizing our torment by giving us time to develop loving relationships...and then tearing us from one
another and torturing us for all eternity, making our suffering all that much greater knowing our loved ones
are suffering as well?

"God loves us like a parent loves a child."

What loving parent would abandon his child to be tortured in hell forever for not worshiping him? Deliberately
and pointlessly inflicting ultimate suffering on one's child isn't love; it's pure evil. (More:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2017/01/08/a-living-sacrifice-no-more/)

"Goodness exists, and therefore there must be an ultimate standard of goodness, which is
God."
You can just as easily say that because evil exists, there must be an ultimate standard of evil, which is God.

"God doesn't immediately send us all to hell, even though we deserve it."
Why do we deserve to suffer for the sins of our ancestors? Besides, wouldn't a truly evil God delight in
maximizing our torment by giving us time to develop loving relationships...and then tearing us from one
another and torturing us for all eternity, making our suffering all that much greater knowing our loved ones
are suffering as well?

"Just like darkness is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat, evil is an absence
of good and thus evil is the absence of God."
Measurable physical properties don't equate to immeasurable moral philosophy, making it a "false analogy"
fallacy. One could just as easily say "good is the absence of evil and thus good is the absence of God."

"God knows more than we do, thus we cannot judge his actions."
Except that that's an "appeal to ignorance" fallacy. We can't judge someone based on what we DON'T know,
only on what we DO know. And we can't simply ignore apparently evil behavior or we risk enabling or even
supporting it.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 26

"God defines good, so anything he does is good."

That can be countered by saying "God defines evil, so anything he does is evil."

"Hundreds of millions of people believe God is good."

That's an "argument from popularity" fallacy, since the number of believers has no bearing on truth.
Otherwise it would have been true that Christianity was false for the first few hundred years it remained a
small, backwater religion. And it would have been true that the world was flat for much of human history, and
then eventually turned into a sphere.

"I intuitively know God is good."

Intuition can lead one to the opposite conclusion from the truth, just like it's "intuitively obvious" that the sun
rotates around the Earth. Thus the claim is an "appeal to intuition" fallacy.

"I've personally experienced God's love."

That's an unfalsifiable claim and thus not evidence. It is far more likely that the person making the claim is
delusional, confused or just a liar--conditions which are all too common and don't require the existence of any
supernatural being.

"Who would want to live in a universe where God is evil?"

Why would the universe care what we want? Making an argument based on wishful thinking is an "appeal to
emotion" fallacy.

"Just believe in God or you'll burn in hell."

That's two fallacies: an "appeal to fear" and a "thought-terminating cliché," since it attempts to end the
debate with a threat rather than evidence.

"Jesus never committed evil."

According to the Bible, Jesus ordered his followers to steal a horse and he rebelled against the government,
and he even claimed he was not good:
 Luke 19:30-35 "Go to the village ahead of you, and as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no
one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here." … Those who were sent ahead went and found it just as he
had told them. As they were untying the colt, its owners asked them, "Why are you untying the colt?" They
replied, "The Lord needs it." They brought it to Jesus. [Jesus ordered the theft of a colt]
 Romans 13:2 "Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who
resist will incur judgment." [Jesus said to obey authorities, regardless of how evil they might be]
 Luke 18:19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone." [Jesus
himself recognized that he wasn't good]
 Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and
sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple. [Even if this is hyperbole, hyperbole
is used to STRENGTHEN the point, not to weaken it.]

"God is just."
God inflicts eternal punishment for finite "crimes" and he punishes people for simply not believing he exists.
He decrees death for all manner of victimless and minor "crimes," yet if someone accepts his forgiveness he
forgives even the most heinous atrocities:
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 27

 Romans 10:9-13 That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God
raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in
righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever
believes in him will not be disappointed." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same
Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever will call on the name of the
lord will be saved."
 Matthew 12:31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the
Spirit will not be forgiven.
 Leviticus 20:13 If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have
done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
 Leviticus 20:27 A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to
stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.
 Leviticus 20:9 Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.
 Leviticus 20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the
adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.
 Leviticus 21:9 If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she
must be burned in the fire.
 Leviticus 24:16 Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death; all
the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name,
shall be put to death.
 Exodus 21:15 Anyone who attacks their father or mother is to be put to death.
 Exodus 22:18 You should not let a sorceress live.
 Exodus 22:20 Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed.
 Exodus 31:14 Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it
shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his
people.
 2 Chronicles 15:12-13 Whoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether
small or great, man or woman.
 Zechariah 13:3 And if anyone still prophesies, their father and mother, to whom they were born, will say
to them, 'You must die, because you have told lies in the LORD's name.' Then their own parents will stab
the one who prophesies.
 Deuteronomy 13:1-10 If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a
wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after
other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that
prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD
your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and
you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. But that prophet or
that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your
God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you
from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from
among you. If your brother, your mother's son, or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your
friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods' (whom neither
you nor your fathers have known, of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from
you, from one end of the earth to the other end), you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye
shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him. But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first
against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. So you shall stone him to death
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 28

because he has sought to seduce you from the LORD your God who brought you out from the land of
Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
 Deuteronomy 13:13-16 Some worthless men have gone out from among you and have seduced the
inhabitants of their city, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods' (whom you have not known), then you
shall investigate and search out and inquire thoroughly. If it is true and the matter established that this
abomination has been done among you, you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of
the sword, utterly destroying it and all that is in it and its cattle with the edge of the sword. Then you shall
gather all its booty into the middle of its open square and burn the city and all its booty with fire as a
whole burnt offering to the LORD your God; and it shall be a ruin forever. It shall never be rebuilt.
 Deuteronomy 17:2-5 If there is found in your midst, in any of your towns, which the LORD your God is
giving you, a man or a woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, by transgressing His
covenant, 3and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the
heavenly host, which I have not commanded, 4and if it is told you and you have heard of it, then you shall
inquire thoroughly. Behold, if it is true and the thing certain that this detestable thing has been done in
Israel, 5then you shall bring out that man or that woman who has done this evil deed to your gates, that is,
the man or the woman, and you shall stone them to death.
 Deuteronomy 17:12 Anyone who shows contempt for the judge or for the priest who stands ministering
there to the LORD your God is to be put to death. You must purge the evil from Israel.
 Deuteronomy 18:20 But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not
commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.
 Deuteronomy 22:20-24 But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, then they shall bring
out the girl to the doorway of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because
she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father's house; thus you shall purge
the evil from among you. If a man is found lying with a married woman, then both of them shall die, the
man who lay with the woman, and the woman; thus you shall purge the evil from Israel. If there is a girl
who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, then you shall
bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did
not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor's wife. Thus you shall purge the
evil from among you.
 Numbers 1:51 So when the tabernacle is to set out, the Levites shall take it down; and when the
tabernacle encamps, the Levites shall set it up. But the layman who comes near shall be put to death.

ADDITIONAL PROBLEMS WITH CHRISTIANITY:

Why the Bible cannot be Trusted:
According to the Bible, God wants EVERYONE to be saved:

 1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants ALL PEOPLE to be saved and to come
to a knowledge of the truth.
 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient
with you, NOT WANTING ANYONE TO PERISH, but everyone to come to repentance.

This makes salvation arguably THE most important goal for humanity. Now if the Bible is God's instruction
manual for salvation, does it make ANY sense at all that scripture would contain any ambiguity about
ANYTHING? Would it make sense for the core tenets of this all-knowing being's Holy Bible to be vague or
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 29

capable of being misunderstood? Or that God would allow the original copies of the Bible to be lost to history,
with only imperfect translations of imperfect translations remaining? Or that God would fill the Bible with
hundreds of prophecies that are supposed to be proof that the Bible is true, yet not include even ONE
prophecy that fulfills all ten requirements needed to distinguish divine prophecy from mundane claims? Or
that the Bible would claim that God plans absolutely EVERYTHING, when free will is critical to the whole
concept of freely CHOOSING salvation? Or for God's ten universal commandments of behavior to be so
different in different parts of the Bible (Exodus 20:2-17 vs. Exodus 34:12-27)? Or that God would fill the Bible
with HUNDREDS of apparent contradictions (http://bibviz.com/#contradictionList)?

Apologists of course claim that all the contradictions, vagueness and confusion disappear if one carefully
studies the Bible. But once you start claiming that the Bible requires special study to understand--declaring
which parts should be read literally and which parts should be considered only metaphor, and insisting that
one apparently clear passage actually means the complete opposite of what it literally says because it must be
paired with another passage in a completely different book--then the Bible becomes a complex puzzle that is
certain to confuse even an earnest student of scripture. It's GUARANTEED to result in false interpretation.

That, along with making belief through faith a virtue instead of belief through evidence, is why THOUSANDS of
different religions have developed. It's also why Christianity has fractured into tens of thousands of different
denominations, often emphasizing very different parts of the Bible and teaching vastly different lessons. For
example, Protestants believe that salvation comes from faith alone:

 Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it
is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.
 Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by
which we must be saved.
 Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather,
through the law we become conscious of our sin.
 Romans 3: 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
 Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our
Lord Jesus Christ.
 Romans 10:9-13 That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God
raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in
righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever
believes in him will not be disappointed." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same
Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever will call on the name of the
lord will be saved."

Whereas Catholics say salvation requires both faith and works:

 James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
 James 2:18-19 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds,
and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
 1 Corinthians 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I
have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
 Luke 10:25-28 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what
must I do to inherit eternal life?” “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” He
answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 30

and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” “You have answered correctly,” Jesus
replied. “Do this and you will live.”
 Revelation 20:12 The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
 Matthew 25:41-46 Then He will also say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the
eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me
nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me
in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me." Then they themselves
also will answer, "Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in
prison, and did not take care of You?" Then He will answer them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you
did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me." These will go away into eternal
punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

And that you can lose your salvation:

 1 Corinthians 9: 27 But I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I
myself will not be disqualified.
 2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not
realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
 John 15:5-6 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for
apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and
dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

And even within such major divisions there are further subdivisions, such as Lutherans teaching that ANYONE
can choose to accept salvation, while Calvinists teach that ONLY GOD chooses whom to save. The scholars of
ALL those Christian sects study the Bible in depth, yet arrive at drastically different conclusions. And it's all due
to differences in interpretation.

Conclusion: Does it make sense that a God who wants EVERYONE to be saved would allow the Bible to be so
confusingly written that it leads to major doctrinal differences even within Christianity itself? Or would it make
more sense for him to produce a Bible that is perfectly clear to everyone who reads it, regardless of language
or culture--something an all-powerful being could easily do BY DEFINITION? You know who definitely WOULD
produce such a poorly written, confusing manual for salvation? Primitive tribesmen inventing stories and
repeating hearsay.

Christian Circular Reasoning:

"The Bible is the word of God." But how can you be sure it's the word of God? "Because the Bible tells us so."
But why believe the Bible? "The Bible is infallible." But how do you know it's infallible? "The Bible is the word
of God." (Rinse, repeat...)

Jesus May Have Never Existed:

Despite most Christian scholars believing that Jesus existed (which they are naturally invested in believing),
there is evidence he didn't exist (at least not in any divine sense):
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 31

Comparing the Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection with that for Julius Caesar
Crossing the Rubicon:
Apologists claim that the historical evidence for Jesus' resurrection is as good as that for Julius Caesar crossing
the Rubicon. However:

 Jesus wrote nothing about himself, whereas both Caesar and his enemies wrote about Caesar's march and
crossing of the Rubicon.
 The Gospels describing the resurrection were written many decades after the event by anonymous sources
with a clear bias for Christianity, and only "Luke" claimed his account was even a historical record. Caesar's
march was reported by numerous reliable contemporary historians using a wide variety of source material
and physical evidence.
 There is no PHYSICAL EVIDENCE for the resurrection at all, whereas there are many contemporary
inscriptions, coins, battle references, judgments and conscriptions detailing nearly the entire chain of
events for Caesar's march.
 An ACTUAL resurrection (as opposed to simple belief in one) isn't necessary to explain subsequent history
after the event. The Roman civil war, however, would not have occurred if Caesar had not actually crossed
the Rubicon and captured Rome.

Comparing the Evidence for Jesus with that for Santa Claus:
For a humorous comparison, the evidence for Jesus is a better fit with a fictional character like Santa Claus
than it is for Julius Caesar:

 Millions of Christians around the world believe in Jesus. Millions of children around the world believe in
Santa Claus.
 Jesus may be based on an actual historical figure. Santa Claus is based on an actual historical figure.
 Christians perform rituals for Jesus, like prayer, baptism, and communion. Children perform rituals for
Santa, like writing him letters, hanging stockings, and setting out milk and cookies.
 Christians claim Jesus answers their prayers by helping them find lost items and giving them guidance.
Children claim Santa answers their letters by giving them toys every Christmas morning.
 Christians believe Jesus used to perform miracles, like healing the sick, turning water into wine, and
resurrecting after his death. Children believe Santa also performs miracles, like being all-knowing whether
children are good or bad, visiting the homes of all the children on Earth in a single night, and fitting
through even the smallest of chimneys.
 Jesus walked on water. Santa can fly through the air.
 Christians learn about Jesus through books (e.g., the Bible), poems (e.g., A Christmas Carol), songs (e.g.,
Jesus Loves Me), movies (e.g., The Passion of the Christ), TV shows (e.g., Davey and Goliath), and word-of-
mouth (e.g., parents). Children also learn about Santa through books (e.g., The Santa Claus Book), poems
(e.g., The Night Before Christmas), songs (e.g., Santa Claus is Coming to Town), movies (e.g., The Santa
Claus), TV shows (e.g., Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer), and word-of-mouth (e.g., parents).
 Jesus offers eternal salvation to people who worship him, and eternal damnation for those who don't.
Santa offers presents for children who are good, and coal for those who are bad.
 Christians sometimes see Jesus in grilled cheese sandwiches and…other things
(http://theworldsbestever.s3.amazonaws.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/jesus-on-a-dogs-
butt.jpg). Children see Santa at malls and on street corners.
 Many Christians are sincere in their belief that Jesus exists. Many children are no less sincere in their belief
that Santa exists.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 32

 Millions of atheists are former Christians. Millions of adults are former children.

The Lack of Independent Evidence that Jesus Existed:

 The ONLY accounts of Jesus' life are the Gospels and Pauline Epistles, written by anonymous authors many
DECADES after the events supposedly took place (long after anyone who might have witnessed the events
had died). Scholars dispute the authenticity of many of the books and passages within the books, which
have clear indications of forgery. And there is clear evidence that Matthew and Luke plagiarized Mark, and
that Luke also copied (inaccurately) from Josephus' work (likely to lend authenticity to his story).
 The BEST independent evidence for the existence of Jesus is a couple of brief, disputed passages from
Flavius Josephus...who was born decades AFTER Jesus lived. In the year 93 or 94 he mentioned Jesus in
two brief passages, one a clear forgery and the other perhaps referring to a different Jesus. Regardless, all
he had was old, secondhand information.
 Luke 2:1-3 claims Jesus was born in the year of a universal tax census under Augustus Caesar while
Quirinius was governor of Syria, which started in 6 CE. But Matthew claims Jesus was born during the reign
of Herod the Great, which ended in 4 BCE. Since Quirinius' reign started ten years AFTER Herod's death,
Jesus could not have been born both during Herod's reign AND during Quirinius' reign. Also, Roman
records show the first universal census didn't occur until the reign of the emperor Vespasian in 74 CE,
DECADES after Quirinius' reign.
 Matthew 2:16 claims that Herod had every infant boy in the area put to death, but not a single historian of
that period even mentioned such an outrageous mass murder. And this includes Flavius Josephus, who
hated Herod and made a point of recording all of Herod's misdeeds.
 Matthew 4:24 says Jesus gave numerous sermons to many thousands of people throughout the area,
astounding everyone with his teachings and amazing miracles of healing and raising the dead. His fame
spread far and wide (Matthew 9:18-26). He even performed miracles for various important leaders in the
area. Yet there is no record of ANY of this until the Gospels were written many decades later.
 Jesus supposedly rode into Jerusalem, greeted with a parade and citywide celebration for the miracle-
working King of the Jews. After his arrest, his trial was a media circus involving important leaders and
celebrities, including the Jewish high priest, Pontius Pilate and King Herod. Jesus even had thousands of
supporters, including such high-ranking leaders as a royal official, a centurion, a temple leader and
members of the Jewish ruling council. Yet nobody recorded ANY of this.
 According to Mark, Matthew and Luke, Jesus died at 3 p.m. on the afternoon of Passover. But John said
three times that Jesus died on the PREPARATION DAY of the Passover, which is the day BEFORE Passover.
 Jesus' birth and death were supposedly accompanied by great SUPERNATURAL EVENTS, including the
appearance of the Star of Bethlehem, a three-hour darkness that covered the land, massive earthquakes,
and many dead Jewish saints resurrecting and wandering around Jerusalem. Also, many people supposedly
witnessed Jesus' resurrection and ascension into Heaven. Yet there are no records of ANY of this ever
happening.
 Judea was a highly important, strategic province to Rome, and the region during Jesus' time was one of the
most well documented in ancient history. Many contemporary writers recorded great volumes of
information about the area. They even described several failed Jewish messiahs. Yet despite Jesus
supposedly performing so many dramatic events, sermons and miracles that were witnessed by thousands
of people and that garnered the attention of numerous high-ranking officials...there is no record of anyone
during that time writing ANYTHING about Jesus.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 33

Christianity Didn't Begin with Jesus and His Apostles:

 Acts portrays the early Christian church as a happy group of believers centered around Jesus' family and
disciples in Jerusalem. However, Christian communities in cities as far away as Damascus, Antioch and
Rome already existed for many years BEFORE Jesus was even nailed to the cross and BEFORE Paul was
converted (even though tradition still maintains that Paul--not even Jesus--founded them). Romans
1:13,15; 15:20-23 clearly reveal that the church had already existed in Rome for many years and that Paul
had never been there.
 Paul himself complains about the diversity among believers, who quarrel among one another over whom
to worship (1 Corinthians 1:10-13). Many first-century exorcists cast out demons in the name of
Christ...but NOT the Christ of Jesus' followers (Mark 9:38, Matthew 7:21-23, Luke 9:49). Paul constantly
rails against his many rival apostles, claiming they are evil deceivers, with false Christs and false gospels so
different from his own that he even accuses them of being agents of Satan.
 Even before Paul, some Christian groups did not believe in the resurrection claim (according to the Gospel
of Thomas community, Christ was never crucified at all). There were other major disagreements even
about the very basics of Jesus, and there is no evidence that anyone knew of any disciples or the family of
Jesus.
 There is evidence that the Apostles may have never existed at all. Excavations beneath the Vatican
revealed a mosaic depiction of Christ as the sun god Helios, and the twelve disciples may have been
symbolic placeholders for the twelve houses of the zodiac.
 The Pre-Pauline Kenosis Hymn, one of the earliest Christian texts, indicates that the Savior did not receive
the name "Jesus" until AFTER his death.

Christianity Wasn't an Overnight Success that Changed the World:

 Christianity didn't conquer the known world like an unstoppable supernatural shockwave radiating out
from the crucifixion, but slowly and piecemeal, like weeds taking over a neglected front yard. Even by their
own account, Christians languished as a fringe cult for centuries, a loose scattering of tiny bickering groups
rejected or opposed by society.
 Even by the most optimistic estimates, first-century Christians had penetrated fewer than 70 towns or
cities across the whole Roman Empire, totaling about 7,000 people out of a population of 2.5 million.
 ROME'S DESTRUCTION WAS CHRISTIANITY'S SALVATION. Christianity teaching disdain for worldly learning
and culture, condemnation of wealth and materialism, and a focus away from this earthly life of suffering
were unappealing to the Roman elite, but highly appealing to the poor and disenfranchised (a target
demographic that was growing every day). Christianity could flourish during Rome's collapse because it
was a well-organized, empire-wide social service independent of the system crashing all around it.
Ultimately, Christianity succeeded in seizing the Roman Empire, and thus the western world, not because
of the beauty of its teachings or any spiritual truths it fostered, but thanks to the most worldly of motives:
power and money.

More: http://www.nazarethmyth.info/Fitzgerald2010HM.pdf,
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2016/11/06/paul-the-true-founder-of-christianity/
and http://jesusneverexisted.com/

Jesus is a Pagan Hero Stereotype:

The Jesus story follows almost all the hero-myth pattern found in pagan belief (from
http://department.monm.edu/classics/courses/clas230/mythdocuments/heropattern/):
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 34

Incidents which occur with regularity in hero-myths of all cultures:

1. Hero's mother is a royal virgin;

2. His father is a king, and
3. Often a near relative of his mother, but
4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but
7. he is spirited away, and
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.
11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13. And becomes king.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
15. Prescribes laws, but
16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which
18. He meets with a mysterious death,
19. Often at the top of a hill,
20. His children, if any do not succeed him.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22. He has one or more holy sepulchres.

Individuals below are listed in the order in which they fit the pattern. Numbers in parentheses indicate the
number of pattern points which apply:

Mithradates VI of Pontus (22) / Krishna (21) / Moses (20) / Romulus (19) / King Arthur (19) / Perseus (18) /
Jesus (18) / Watu Gunung of Java (18) / Heracles (17) Mohammad (17) / Beowulf (15) / Buddha (15) / Czar
Nicholas II (14) / Zeus (14) / Nyikang, a cult-hero of the Shiluk tribe of the Upper Nile (14) / Samson (13) /
Sunjata, the Lion-King of Ancient Mali (11) / Achilles (10) / Odysseus (8) / Harry Potter (8)

Many early followers of Jesus' Christianity--including Church Fathers--were disturbed by how similar the Jesus
story is to older pagan mythologies.

The Failure of Biblical Prophecies:

Despite claims of THOUSANDS of prophecies in the Bible, not even ONE of them fulfills all ten requirements
that must be true in order to distinguish a divine prophecy from a prophecy humans could come up with on
their own:

1. It must have been understood as prophecy when first stated, not claimed to be so after the fact.
2. It must actually have been prophesied BEFORE the event occurred, not simply claimed AFTER the fact to
have been prophesied.
3. It must be specific enough so that it could describe only one possible event, which was clearly understood
BEFORE the event occurred.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 35

4. It must be fulfilled within a narrow time frame or by a specific deadline.

5. It must be a highly improbable event, not some common occurrence.
6. It must be something humans cannot deliberately manipulate into happening.
7. It must be fulfilled in a literal way, not in some "spiritual" or "metaphorical" way that cannot be
demonstrated.
8. Its fulfillment must be extremely well documented, ideally with observable evidence.
9. It must not be edited after it was prophesied.
10. And it should not be a part of other prophecies with a questionable success record. All of them should be
fulfilled.

Examples of failed prophecies:

Mundane or vague prophecies, without specific dates, thus allowing them to be shoehorned
into a variety of historical events:
 Daniel 2:40-43 Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and
shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces. In that you
saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have
in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay. As the toes of the feet
were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle.
And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of
men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.
 John 13:35-36 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered, "Where I go, you cannot follow Me
now; but you will follow later."

Prophecies never claimed to be prophecies in the first place, or only seem prophetic when
improperly translated or taken out of context of their surrounding text:
 Isaiah 7:14 The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. [Claimed to be
about Mary, the Greek version mistranslated the Hebrew "young woman" to "virgin."]
 Psalms 22:16 Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet.
[Claimed to be about crucifixion. More accurate translations are "like a lion they
bite/maul/dig/disfigure/are at my hands and feet," which do not suggest crucifixion.]
 Zechariah 13:6 If someone asks, "What are these wounds on your body?" they will answer, "The wounds I
was given at the house of my friends." [This is not about Jesus, but instead a description of the fate of false
teachers who deceived people into believing in false gods.]

Prophecies only fulfilled by their own believers striving to fulfill those prophecies:
 Isaiah 11:12 He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the
scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth. [Claimed to refer to Israel, which millions of
Christians worked for centuries to achieve.]
 Isaiah 66:8 Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? [Ditto.]
 Ezekiel 37:21 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they
have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. [Ditto.]
 Zechariah 8:7-8 Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, I am going to save My people from the land of the
east and from the land of the west; and I will bring them back and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem."
[Ditto.]
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 36

 Zechariah 9:9 See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a
colt, the foal of a donkey. [Jesus had to have known the prophecy and could simply have enacted it.]

Prophecies written only after the events occurred:

 Daniel 11 Now then, I tell you the truth: Three more kings will arise in Persia, and then a fourth, who will
be far richer than all the others. When he has gained power by his wealth, he will stir up everyone against
the kingdom of Greece. Then a mighty king will arise, who will rule with great power and do as he pleases.
After he has arisen, his empire will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven....
 Isaiah 45:13 I will raise up Cyrus in my righteousness: I will make all his ways straight. He will rebuild my
city and set my exiles free, but not for a price or reward, says the LORD Almighty.

Prophecies claimed to be fulfilled despite no evidence any prophecy was actually ever made:
 Luke 24:46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the
third day." [It wasn't written.]
 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for
our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day
according to the Scriptures. [The prophecy isn't in the scriptures.]
 Matthew 2:23 and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the
prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene. [There's no evidence the prophets ever said that.]
 Matthew 27:9-10 Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "And they took
the thirty pieces of silver, the price of the one whose price had been set by the sons of israel; and they
gave them for the potter's field, as the lord directed me." [Again, no evidence.]

Clearly failed prophecies, requiring apologists to water down their meaning and creatively
reinterpret them to fit the facts:
 Ezekiel 26:7-14 For thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will bring upon Tyre from the north
Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, chariots, cavalry and a great army. ... I will
make you a bare rock; you will be a place for the spreading of nets. You will be built no more, for I the
LORD have spoken," declares the Lord GOD. [Nebuchadnezzar failed to destroy Tyre. Alexander the Great
later destroyed it, but it was quickly rebuilt. Today it is the fourth largest city in Lebanon.]
 Ezekiel 29:8-12 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will bring upon you a sword and I will cut off
from you man and beast. The land of Egypt will become a desolation and waste. ... and I will make the land
of Egypt an utter waste and desolation ... A man's foot will not pass through it, and the foot of a beast will
not pass through it, and it will not be inhabited for forty years. So I will make the land of Egypt a desolation
in the midst of desolated lands. And her cities, in the midst of cities that are laid waste, will be desolate
forty years; and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them among the lands." [This
never happened.]
 Ezekiel 29:20 I have given [Nebuchadnezzar] Egypt as a reward for his efforts because he and his army did
it for me, declares the Sovereign LORD. [Nebuchadnezzar never conquered Egypt.]
 Jeremiah 34:4-5 Yet hear the Lord's promise to you, Zedekiah king of Judah. This is what the Lord says
concerning you: You will not die by the sword; you will die peacefully. [In Jeremiah 52:10-11, Zedekiah did
not die peacefully: "he slew also all the princes of Judah in Riblah. Then he put out the eyes of Zedekiah;
and the king of Babylon bound him in chains, and carried him to Babylon, and put him in prison till the day
of his death.]
 2 Kings 22: 20 Therefore, behold, I will gather you [Josiah] to your fathers, and you will be gathered to
your grave in peace. [In 2 Chronicles 35:23-24, he did not die peacefully: "The archers shot King Josiah, and
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 37

the king said to his servants, 'Take me away, for I am badly wounded.' So his servants took him out of the
chariot and carried him in the second chariot which he had, and brought him to Jerusalem where he died
and was buried in the tombs of his fathers."]
 Genesis 35:10 God said to him, "Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will
be Israel." So he named him Israel. [Later in Genesis 46:2 God called him Jacob: "And God spake unto
Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, Here am I."]
 Isaiah 52:1 Put on your garments of splendor, Jerusalem, the holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will
not enter you again. [Uncircumcised people live in Jerusalem even today.]
 Matthew 21:22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. [Try praying for an
amputee's limbs to grow back. Good luck.]
 John 14:13-14 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. [Ditto]
 Matthew 16:28 "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son
of Man coming in his kingdom." [Either there were immortals in the group, or Jesus was wrong that some
people there would still be alive when he returned.]
 Mark 13:29-30 Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at
the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. [Ditto.]
 Luke 21:31-32 So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is
near. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. [Ditto.]
 1 Corinthians 7:29 What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who
have wives should live as if they do not. [Indicating that they were in the last days, when clearly they were
not.]
 Hebrews 1:1-2 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many
ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom
also He made the world. [Ditto.]
 1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray. [Ditto.]
 James 5:8-9 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. [Ditto.]

Failure of Prayer and Faith Healing:

A foundation of Christian belief is that God answers prayers. They cite such scripture as:

 James 5:16 The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

 Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it
will be yours.
 John 14:13-14 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
 Jeremiah 33:3 Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not
know.
 Matthew 7:7-8 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
 1 John 5:14-16 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his
will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us--whatever we ask--we know that we have what we
asked of him.
 2 Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my
face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal
their land.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 38

 Romans 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along
with him, graciously give us all things?
 Philippians 4:6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with
thanksgiving, present your requests to God.
 Ephesians 6:18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests.
 Psalm 17:6 I call on you, my God, for you will answer me; turn your ear to me and hear my prayer.

The problem is that the ONLY prayers that ever come true are the ones that could have come true even
without prayer (like finding lost keys). Often Christians will say that they prayed for a loved one with only a 1%
chance of surviving some disease, and he survived...therefore prayer works! The problem is that 1% of survival
means that 1 in 100 people survive that disease WITHOUT prayer anyway. So how much greater is the survival
rate of those who are prayed for? None, actually. In fact, prayer may actually make survival worse:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/12082681/ns/health-heart_health/t/power-prayer-flunks-unusual-test/
#.WB_L4i0rL-g.

Prayers only ever appear to work with mundane events where there is at least SOME chance of occurring
naturally (and at the same rate as NOT praying!). But prayer for non-mundane events with NO chance of
occurring naturally--such as for an amputee's limbs to grow back, or for the tens of thousands of children who
die each and every day from disease and starvation to survive--and prayer fails every time.

Texas governor Rick Perry called on MILLIONS of Christians to pray for rain to end the drought in April 2011.
The drought only grew worse over the next four months.

But likely the MOST FAILED PRAYER is when Jesus prayed for all believers:

 John 17:20-23 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their
message, THAT ALL OF THEM MAY BE ONE, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be
in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me,
THAT THEY MAY BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE--I in them and you in me--SO THAT THEY MAY BE BROUGHT TO
COMPLETE UNITY. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have
loved me."

Jesus prayed for Christians to be unified in order to show the world that Christianity is true. Tens of thousands
of often mutually contradictory denominations later, it's safe to say this prayer failed spectacularly. (More:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2016/01/10/the-most-fantastically-failed-prayer-in-history/)

Apologists often point to faith healing as proof of the power of God. But here Derren Brown shows how even
an atheist with no supernatural powers can use nothing but psychology and biology to achieve even better
results than Christian faith healers: https://youtu.be/wQI6fJmwTNU?t=36m32s (view until 1:03:44).

Consequences to Belief in the Bible:

Why Christians Should Still Follow the Old Testament Laws:
 Matthew 5:17-20 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to
abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest
letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is
accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 39

same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands
will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that
of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
 Mark 7:9-10 And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to
observe your own traditions! For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who
curses his father or mother must be put to death.'"
 Psalms 119:151-152 Yet you are near, O LORD, and all your commands are true. Long ago I learned from
your statutes that you established them to last forever.
 Deuteronomy 4:2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands
of the LORD your God that I give you.
 Consequence: Christians should not be allowed to eat bacon, shrimp or shellfish; play football (pigskin);
allow witches to live; wear mixed fabrics; work on the Sabbath; etc.

Why Christians Should Give Away Their Wealth:

 Mark 10:21-25 "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.
Then come, follow me." At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth. Jesus
looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! ... It is
easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
 Luke 6:29-30 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak,
do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs
to you, do not demand it back.
 Luke 14:33 "Any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple."
 Matthew 19:27-29 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be
for us?" Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on
his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of
Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for
my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life."
 Matthew 25:41-46 Then He will also say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the
eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me
nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me
in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me." Then they themselves
also will answer, "Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in
prison, and did not take care of You?" Then He will answer them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you
did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me." These will go away into eternal
punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Why Christians Should Hate Their Families:

 Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and
sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple. [Even if this is hyperbole, hyperbole
is used to STRENGTHEN the point, not to weaken it.]
 Matthew 10:34-37 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring
peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a
daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or
daughter more than me is not worthy of me. [In other words, love your family less than God. Insecure
much?]
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 40

Why Christians Should Obey the Government:

 Romans 13: 1-7 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that
which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently,
whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will
bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do
wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be
commended. For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for
rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment
on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible
punishment but also as a matter of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's
servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay
taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
 Titus 3:1 1 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient.
 1 Peter 2:13-14 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the
one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those
who do right.

Why Christians Should Welcome Foreigners and Refugees:

 Exodus 23:9 DO NOT OPPRESS A FOREIGNER; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because
you were foreigners in Egypt.
 Deuteronomy 10:18-19 He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and LOVES THE FOREIGNER
RESIDING AMONG YOU, giving them food and clothing. AND YOU ARE TO LOVE THOSE WHO ARE
FOREIGNERS, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt.
 Leviticus 19:33-34 When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. THE
FOREIGNER RESIDING AMONG YOU MUST BE TREATED AS YOUR NATIVE-BORN. Love them as yourself, for
you were foreigners in Egypt.
 Leviticus 19:9-10 When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or
gather the gleanings of your harvest. Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes
that have fallen. LEAVE THEM FOR THE POOR AND THE FOREIGNER.
 1 Kings 8:41-44 As for the foreigner who does not belong to your people Israel but has come from a
distant land because of your name-- for they will hear of your great name and your mighty hand and your
outstretched arm--when they come and pray toward this temple, then hear from heaven, your dwelling
place. DO WHATEVER THE FOREIGNER ASKS OF YOU, so that all the peoples of the earth may know your
name and fear you, as do your own people Israel, and may know that this house I have built bears your
Name.
 Galatians 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS
YOURSELF."

Why Public Prayer is Anti-Christian:

 Matthew 6:5-8 And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the
synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their
reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is
unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not
keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like
them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 41

Why Christians Should Follow the Laws of the Old Testament:

 Matthew 5:17-19 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to
abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest
letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is
accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others
accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these
commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Why Tattoos are Anti-Christian:

 Leviticus 19:28 Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

Why Wearing Blended Fabrics and Planting Multiple Crops is Anti-Christian:

 Leviticus 19:28 Keep my decrees. Do not mate different kinds of animals. Do not plant your field with two
kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

Why Many Foods are Anti-Christian:

 Leviticus 11:6-12 The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you.
And the pig, though it has a divided hoof, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. You must not eat
their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you. Of all the creatures living in the water of the
seas and the streams you may eat any that have fins and scales. But all creatures in the seas or streams
that do not have fins and scales--whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living
creatures in the water--you are to regard as unclean. And since you are to regard them as unclean, you
must not eat their meat; you must regard their carcasses as unclean. Anything living in the water that does
not have fins and scales is to be regarded as unclean by you.
 Leviticus 3:17 It shall be a statute FOREVER throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places, that
you eat neither fat nor blood.”

Why Christmas Trees are Anti-Christian:

 Jeremiah 10:2-4 This is what the Lord says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in
the heavens, though the nations are terrified by them. For the practices of the peoples are worthless; they
cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter."

Why Christians Should Not Act Holier Than Thou:

 Matthew 23:13-28 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of
the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are
trying to. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to
win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you
are. ... You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of
the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as
righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 42

Why It is Wrong to Claim That Belief in God Leads to Moral Behavior:

There are countless examples throughout history: the Crusades, the Inquisition, witch trials, Divine Right of
kings, demonization of other religions, persecution of heretics, censorship, missionary destruction of native
religions, Ku Klux Klan, etc. But here are some modern-day examples:

 1960s Father Lawrence Murphy molested 200 deaf boys, often claiming God had him do so as a form of
confession.
 1981 and onward, Army of God, Christian Identity, Lambs of Christ and other Christian Patriot movements
committed a number of terrorist attacks, including attacking abortion clinics and doctors across the United
States.
 1985 Debra Lynn Gindorf killed her two-year-old daughter and three-month-old son, believing she and her
babies would be reunited in heaven, where they would be safe and happy together for eternity.
 1993 Michael F. Griffin shot and killed abortion provider Dr. David Gunn based on his Christian views.
 1994 Reverend Paul Hill murdered an abortion doctor and expected to be rewarded for it in heaven.
 1996 Eric Robert Rudolph carried out the Centennial Olympic Park bombing as well as attacks on an
abortion clinic and a lesbian nightclub.
 1998 Khoua Her strangled her six children, believing she would be reunited with them in the afterlife.
 1998 Christopher Turgeon murdered a man, as ordered by God.
 1999 Marilyn Lemak murdered her three children, perceiving herself as a loving mother tenderly taking her
children to a happier existence.
 2001 Andrea Yates believed her children to have "unrighteous standing before God," and she killed them
so they would not grow up and become sinners.
 2002 Sherry Marie Delker murdered her daughter by running her down with her car outside a church. Her
intent was to send her daughter to a "better place."
 2002 Brian Mitchell, who believed he was God’s servant, abducted 14-year-old Elizabeth Smart and used
his religious belief to justify showing her pornography and giving her drugs and alcohol.
 2004 Dena Schlosser killed her 10-month-old baby by slicing off her arms as an offering to God.
 2005 Magdalena Lopez beat her two sons to death because she thought they’d be better off in heaven.
 2009 Scott Roeder shot Dr. George Tiller in the head as he was in church.
 2010 Ugandan Rev. Martin Ssempa, supported by American evangelical Christians, supported a bill to have
homosexuals hanged.
 2010 Nine "Hutaree" (Christian warriors) militia members were arrested for plotting to kill various police
officers, whom they believe will support the Antichrist.
 2015, Robert Doggart planned to attack a Muslim enclave with guns, Molotov cocktails and a machete.
 2015 Evangelist Robert Lewis Dear shot 12 people, killing three of them, in front of an abortion clinic. He
believed he was doing God's work.
 2015 Ivory Coast man chopped off the heads of at least 20 children because God told him to do it.

And don't forget the many murders inflicted by the Ku Klux Klan, which are Protestant Christians. The Anti-
balaka groups of the Central African Republic, among other Christian terror groups in Africa, have committed
several massacres against Muslims in recent years. The Indian Naga nationalist militant group, one among
several Christian terrorist organizations in India, uses various terrorist tactics, including assassination, in their
efforts to establish a sovereign Christian state.

More: http://myth-one.com/memorial.htm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 43

Bible Contradictions:
Here are just a few examples. See more at:
https://thesuperstitiousnakedape.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/bible-contradictions.png,
http://www.answering-christianity.com/101_bible_contradictions.htm and
http://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html

Is God All Powerful?

 Matthew 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are
possible."
 Job 42:2 I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
 Revelation 19:6 For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
 Jeremiah 32:27 I am the LORD, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?
 Contradiction: Genesis 32:24-30 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. When
the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was
wrenched as he wrestled with the man. ... Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but
Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome." ... So Jacob called the
place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
 Contradiction: Judges 1:19 The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country,
but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron.

Is God Good and Merciful to All?

 Psalms 145:9 The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
 Contradiction: Revelation 20:10 They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Has Anyone Seen God?

 John 1:18 No one has ever seen God.
 Exodus 33:20 "But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."
 1 Timothy 6:15-16 God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is
immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.
 Contradiction: Genesis 18:1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was
sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
 Contradiction: Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face,
and yet my life was spared."
 Contradiction: Exodus 6:2-3 God also said to Moses, "I am the LORD. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and
to Jacob as God Almighty."
 Contradiction: Exodus 24:9-11 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went
up and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear as the
sky itself. But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate
and drank.
 Contradiction: Exodus 33:11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend.
 Contradiction: Numbers 12:6-8 he said, "Listen to my words: "When there is a prophet among you, I, the
Lord, reveal myself to them in visions, I speak to them in dreams. But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house. With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of
the LORD.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 44

Are Christians Saved by Faith and Works, or by Faith Alone?

 Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is
the gift of God.
 Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by
which we must be saved.
 Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather,
through the law we become conscious of our sin.
 Romans 3: 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
 Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our
Lord Jesus Christ.
 Romans 10:9-13 That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God
raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in
righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever
believes in him will not be disappointed." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same
Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever will call on the name of the
lord will be saved."
 Contradiction: James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith
alone.
 Contradiction: 1 Corinthians 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all
knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
 Contradiction: Matthew 25:41-46 Then He will also say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, accursed
ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you
gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not
invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me." Then they
themselves also will answer, "Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick,
or in prison, and did not take care of You?" Then He will answer them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent
that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me." These will go away into eternal
punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Do Christians Sin?
 Ecclesiastes 7:20 Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and
never sins.
 Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
 Contradiction: 1 John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God
keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
 Contradiction: 1 John 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
 Contradiction: 1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he
cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Does Salvation Require Being Born Again?

 John 3:3-18 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born
again." ... Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned
already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
 Contradiction: Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made
sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. [We inherited
Adam's sin automatically, so do we inherit Jesus' salvation automatically?]
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Did Jesus Abolish the Old Covenant?

 Hebrews 8:6-13 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which
he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. For if
there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But
God found fault with the people and said "The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new
covenant … By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete."
 Contradiction: Matthew 5:17-19 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not
come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest
letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of
these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven."

Did the Women Spread the Word About the Empty Tomb?
 Matthew 28:8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his
disciples.
 Luke 24:9 When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the
others.
 Contradiction: Mark 16:8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They
said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

What are the Ten Commandments?

Apologists typically claim the list given in Exodus 20:2-17 as the being the official Ten Commandments.
However, the ONLY list that the Bible specifically calls the "Ten Commandments" that God gave to Moses to
inscribe on stone tablets is from Exodus 34:14-28:

Exodus 20:2-17 Contradiction: Exodus 34:14-28

 You shall have no other gods before me.  You shall not worship any other god, for the
 You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
likeness of what is in heaven above or on the  You shall make for yourself no molten gods.
earth beneath or in the water under the earth.  You shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
You shall not worship them or serve them.  The first offspring from every womb belongs to
 You shall not take the name of the LORD your God God, and all your male livestock.
in vain.  You shall work six days, but on the seventh day
 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six you shall rest.
days you shall labor and do all your work, but the  Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits
seventh day is a Sabbath of the LORD your God; in of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of
it you shall not do any work. Ingathering at the turn of the year.
 Honor your father and your mother.  Three times a year all your males are to appear
 You shall not murder. before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel.
 You shall not commit adultery.  You shall not offer the blood of God's sacrifice
 You shall not steal. with leavened bread.
 You shall not bear false witness against your  You shall bring the very first of the first fruits of
neighbor. your soil into the house of the LORD your God.
 You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you  You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's
shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male milk. [WTF?!]
servant or his female servant or his ox or his
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 46

donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

How Did Judas Die?

 Matthew 27:3-7 Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt
remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, saying, "I have sinned by
betraying innocent blood." But they said, "What is that to us? See to that yourself!” And HE THREW THE
PIECES OF SILVER INTO THE TEMPLE SANCTUARY AND DEPARTED; and he went away and hanged himself.
The chief priests took the pieces of silver and said, "It is not lawful to put them into the temple treasury,
since it is the price of blood." And THEY CONFERRED TOGETHER AND WITH THE MONEY BOUGHT THE
POTTER'S FIELD as a burial place for strangers.
 Contradiction: Acts 1:18 Now this man [Judas] ACQUIRED A FIELD WITH THE PRICE OF HIS WICKEDNESS,
and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.

Did God Really Want the World to Forget Amalek?

 Exodus 17:14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and
make sure that Joshua hears it, because I will completely blot out the name of Amalek from under
heaven." [God ordered something to be remembered so that he could make it forgotten?]

Does the Sun Rotate Around the Earth?

 Ecclesiastes 1:5 The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises
 1 Chronicles 16:30 The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.
 Psalm 93:1 The world is established, firm and secure.
 Psalm 96:10 The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved.
 Psalm 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
 Contradiction: Science has proven that the Earth revolves and that it orbits the sun.

Is the Earth Flat with a Dome Marked with Lights?

 Genesis 1:7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. [A
vault/firmament is an arched roof.]
 Job 37:18 Can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
 Isaiah 40:22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He
stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
 Job 22:14 He is way up there, walking on the vault of heaven.
 Daniel 4:10-11 I was looking, and behold, there was a tree in the midst of the earth and its height was
great. The tree grew large and became strong and its height reached to the sky, and it was visible to the
end of the whole earth.
 Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the
world and their splendor.
 Psalm 19:4 Their line has gone out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world. In
them He has placed a tent for the sun, which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices as a
strong man to run his course. Its rising is from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of
them; and there is nothing hidden from its heat.
 Isaiah 14:13-14 I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, and I will sit on the
mount of assembly in the recesses of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds.
 Revelation 6:13-14 And the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken
by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 47

 Revelation 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four
winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.
 Contradiction: Science has proven that the Earth is a sphere, that there is no vault covering the Earth, and
that stars are massively larger than the Earth and much farther away than any "vault" could be.

Will Stars Fall from the Sky?

 Mark 13:25 The stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
 Revelation 6:13 And the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong
wind.
 Revelation 8:10 The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky
on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water.
 Revelation 9:1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the
earth.
 Revelation 12:4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.
 Contradiction: Stars are thousands to TRILLIONS of times larger than the Earth. If even ONE star "fell" to
the Earth, our planet would be instantly destroyed. Apologists are forced to claim the stars are
metaphorical or they refer to meteors, neither of which would have been understood to be that when the
Bible was written.

Does God cause confusion?

 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
 Contradiction: The Bible is so confusing that almost no two people who read it have the same
interpretation. That's why there are over 33,000 distinct Christian denominations instead of just one. So
either God is indeed the author of confusion, or the Bible is not the word of God.

More: https://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

Problems with the Kalam Cosmological Argument:

The KCA as proposed by William Lane Craig:
1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence (this is based on causality, because "something
cannot come from nothing").
2. The universe began to exist (based on the observed evidence for the Big Bang).
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause for its existence.
4. Since no scientific explanation can account for the cause of the universe, it must be due to a personal
agent (known as "God") that chose to create the universe. Furthermore, this agent must be immaterial,
timeless, spaceless, changeless, uncaused, beginningless, eternal, enormously intelligent and enormously
powerful (since matter and spacetime began with the Big Bang, and creating such a big and complex
universe would require great intelligence and power).
5. Therefore, God exists.

Refutations of the KCA:

1. This premise is claimed to be "intuitively obvious" but it's only an assertion. Because intuition is often
wrong (like the sun circling an unmoving Earth, or heavier objects falling faster than lighter objects)
premise 1 is an appeal to intuition fallacy. Time is also intuitively obvious, but if it started with our
universe, so too may have causality. Also, radioactive decay and particle appearance and disappearance
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 48

have no evident causes. Finally, since everything in our universe is a rearrangement of existing matter and
energy, the only things that TRULY "begin" to exist are the matter and energy at the beginning of our
universe (and elementary particles). Since that started with the Big Bang (when time itself may have
started), and we don't know how the Big Bang started, we cannot claim that everything that begins to exist
has a cause of its existence.
2. Our LOCAL universe did evidently begin to exist 13.8 billion years ago, but that doesn't mean there isn't a
GLOBAL universe that created our universe. There are several theories in physics (quantum mechanics,
string theory) that predict the existence of multiple universes. So there could exist a natural global
universe that is something like an eternal fluctuating quantum void capable of constantly generating local
universes, in which case that global universe wouldn't necessarily have a cause for its existence.
3. Thus, we cannot claim that the universe (at least not any global one) has a cause for its existence.
4. A global universe would be FAR more parsimonious than the God hypothesis, raising far fewer questions
than postulating an "enormously" intelligent and powerful mind capable of existing outside of the context
of material spacetime (or indeed anything at all) for no reason at all. Also, for all we know our experience
of living in this universe is being created by computer simulation, developed by someone who is no more
intelligent or powerful than a typical computer game programmer. And his "real" universe could function
nothing like ours, nor be the result of forces we can even imagine (as is often the case for the computer
worlds WE create).
5. Therefore, the KCA fails.

The Counter-KCA:
(This is to show how arguments are not evidence)
1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence (same as the KCA premise 1).
2. Every thought or action requires a change in matter over time and space before it can begin to exist (based
on the observed evidence of every thought and action ever).
3. Therefore, the cause of every thought or action must be material, temporal, spacial, changeable, caused,
originated and non-eternal
4. Since the God of the Kalam Cosmological Argument is defined as immaterial, timeless, spaceless,
changeless, uncaused, beginningless and eternal, he must be incapable of thought or action, which by
definition means he must be mindless and impotent.
5. Therefore, God could not have created the universe.

The Godless Cosmological Argument:

(This is to show the problem with using an observation within our universe to explain something "outside" of
our universe):
1. Complexity always originates from a simpler earlier state (I call this "complexification" the "Law of
Complex Origins." As with the causality claim of the KCA premise 1, there are no known exceptions to this
law).
2. An intelligent mind is a complex system (arguably the most complex system known to science).
3. God has an intelligent, possibly even omniscient mind (this is a basic premise of virtually all theologies,
especially those that use cosmological arguments to prove the existence of God).
4. Therefore, God must have developed from a simpler earlier state (although many theists claim that God is
constructed from a single, simple substance, an intelligent mind is enormously more complex than no
mind at all, and an omniscient mind would arguably be the most complex system possible).
5. Since God existed in a simpler earlier state, he cannot be changeless, eternal and timeless by definition.
Furthermore, it means that he couldn't have existed before time came into existence, which means he had
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 49

to have a beginning, and thus he cannot be the First Cause. And if time began with the formation of our
universe, then God could not have created our universe.

The Natural Cosmological Argument:

(by AXEMAN 890)
1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause for its existence.
2. Every natural thing that begins to exist has a completely natural cause for its existence (e.g., earthquakes,
planetary formation, supernovae, plant growth, reproduction, etc.)
3. The universe began to exist.
4. The universe and everything observable in it is natural.
5. Therefore, the universe has a natural cause for its existence.
6. Since God, by definition, is supernatural, he couldn't have created the universe because every natural thing
that begins to exist has a natural cause for its existence.
7. Therefore, God did not create the universe.

Conclusion:
Since all these cosmological arguments for the origin of our universe (INCLUDING the KCA) are based on
observations (causality and complexification) that only make sense WITHIN the confines of the material
spacetime of our universe, NONE of these arguments is valid.

SOCIAL ISSUES:
False Christian Perceptions About Atheists:
Atheists are Immoral:
The nations with greater happiness, better health, better life expectancy, better education, better incomes,
lower crime rates, lower abortion rates, lower teen pregnancy rates, lower STD rates and lower infant
mortality than the United States—which is one of the most RELIGIOUS nations in the developed world—are
also among the most ATHEISTIC nations of the world (Finland, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Japan, France,
South Korea, Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Iceland, Australia, Ireland, Denmark, the Czech Republic, Israel,
Canada, the UK, etc.). In contrast, the poorest, least healthy, least happy and most violent countries are also
among the MOST religious nations (including South Sudan, Nigeria, Uganda, the Philippines, Afghanistan,
Tanzania, Pakistan, Morocco, Egypt, Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, Yemen, El Salvador, Colombia, Senegal, Malawi,
Indonesia, Brazil, Peru, Syria, Jordan, Algeria, Haiti, Botswana, Ghana, Venezuela, Mexico, Sierra Leone, etc.).
(More: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-secular-life/201410/secular-societies-fare-better-
religious-societies, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_irreligion,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report,
http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/healthiest-countries/)

And although correlation does not necessarily mean causation, atheism is correlated with higher intelligence,
better education, better economic status, and lower incarceration rates. Atheists represent just 0.1% of the
total US federal prison population, which is 31 times lower than the 3.1%+ of the general population who are
atheists. Christians, OTOH, represent 70% of the total US federal prison population, which is nearly the same
as the 75% of the general population who are Christians (http://thehumanist.com/commentary/nonbelievers-
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 50

behind-bars-does-the-us-prison-system-privilege-religious-inmates, https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-
prisoners-less-likely-to-be-atheists/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_United_States).

Atheists Hate God:

Atheists cannot actually hate God because we don't believe he even exists. We hate God the same way
Christians hate Loki, Kali or Darth Vader. However, many atheists do hate CHRISTIANITY for its persecution of
atheists throughout history, as well as Christian attempts to subvert science and force society to follow their
dogma.

It Takes Faith to be an Atheist:

This is usually accompanied by the claim that atheists believe that "something came from nothing." However,
atheism means "without belief in gods." That's it. It does NOT mean a belief in ANYTHING else. Thus, atheism
is not any form of faith claim. (Also, there's no evidence that there ever was "nothing." An eternal fluctuating
quantum void that creates universes is an example of something that wouldn't be "nothing.")

The second mistake apologists usually make is to think atheists declare that "there is no God," and they
incorrectly believe that agnosticism is a position that lies between theism and atheism. However, an agnostic
is someone who DOES NOT CLAIM TO KNOW for certain whether gods exist, while a gnostic is someone who
DOES CLAIM TO KNOW whether gods exist. Thus, a gnostic theist believes in gods and claims they exist, an
agnostic theist believes in gods but doesn't claim to know they exist, a gnostic atheist doesn't believe in gods
and claims to know they don't exist, and an agnostic atheist doesn't believe in gods but doesn't claim to know
they don't exist. Gnostic atheism is a faith-based position, whereas the far more common agnostic atheism is
not.

No One is Truly an Atheist:

The claim is that we are really just lying to ourselves because we want to live in sin. However, hundreds of
millions of people belong to widely differing religions, many of them believing in numerous gods, gods that
don't resemble the Judeo-Christian God at all, and non-god supernatural entities. For the claim that God has
shown himself to everyone to be true, that would necessitate believers of every other religion to be lying as
well. But the religions people end up following have far more to do with the location where those people
happen to be born than with ANY other factor...which is exactly what we would expect to see if God doesn't
exist, but wouldn't make sense if there is a God who wants everyone to be a Christian. Ironically, many theists
experience moments of doubt that their God exists, whereas few atheists have moments of doubt that God
doesn't exist. Also, no child who grows up without religious indoctrination claims to know God exists. And
millions of atheists live lives that are more moral than most Christians (the nations with the lowest crime rates
are also the most atheistic), so the whole premise of disbelief so that one can sin doesn't even make sense.
Finally, most atheists have no problem blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31 And so I tell you, every
kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN), which
wouldn't make sense if they REALLY believed in God.

Atheism Cannot Account for Morality:

If atheism cannot account for morality, then why do the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of atheists around the world
behave so well? Why aren't we running through the streets stealing, murdering and raping? Why aren't our
prisons disproportionately filled with atheists instead of mostly Christians, Muslims and other theists? Why are
the countries with the lowest crime rates and best care for their people mostly ATHEISTIC nations? And why
are the countries with the highest crime rates and worst care for their people largely RELIGIOUS nations?
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 51

One reason is because religious people typically base their morality on ancient scriptures that support murder,
genocide, slavery, rape, theft, torture, etc., whereas we atheists tend to base our morality on treating others
the way we ourselves would prefer to be treated. We don't have to tap dance around topics like slavery that
the Bible clearly endorses--we know it's wrong and can condemn it without equivocating.

Also, to someone who believes in an eternal afterlife, this life is nothing more than a waiting room before
passing though the door to eternity. But to an atheist, this is the ONLY life we have, so we'd better make the
best of it. I want to live in a world where people treat each other well, not one rife with violence, abuse and
destruction...so I work toward making the kind of society I want to live in. You don't need religion in order to
understand that. All you need is compassion.

It's important to keep in mind is that we're genetically predisposed to care about others. Many species--even
primitive ones--have genes that encourage them to be protective of their offspring because it increases their
chances of survival. And as we often see in nature, it doesn't take much to extend that protective instinct
beyond the family unit.

Furthermore, there is an evolutionary basis for morality. Social species can cooperate and specialize, which
gives them an advantage over solitary species. However, to be social requires codes of conduct to interact
safely and effectively (which is why even piranha know not to attack one another). Thus, genes for behaviors
that improve social cohesion and cooperation become selected for in nature. Since human beings are among
the most social of social species, we have evolved a capacity for complex moral behavior...although how that
manifests itself can vary substantially among different societies. The point is, atheists do indeed have a basis
for morality, and it doesn't require any lawgiver or any one set of absolute rules, just normal evolutionary
forces that occur in nature every day.

Apologists often claim that without a code of conduct provided by divine decree, morality is purely subjective.
Well, nobody enjoys being made to suffer, so it makes perfect sense to avoid inflicting misery on others if you
don't want others to inflict it upon you. So is treating others the way you want to be treated objective or
subjective? Who cares? Because either way it WORKS. That's why it's a key component of many philosophies
and religions. Ironically, those who believe that God determines right and wrong are the ones who believe in
moral subjectivity. After all, morality based on God's whim is morality based on whom you ARE, rather than
what you DO...which is the very DEFINITION of subjective.

Rather tellingly, fundies often ask why anyone would behave if there are no divine consequences. If they only
do what's right because of fear of eternal punishment, then they have no moral compass, and we can be
thankful that they have religion to restrain their sociopathic tendencies.

Hitler was an Atheist:

Hitler identified as a CATHOLIC and he was never excommunicated from the Catholic Church. Some quotes:

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." -- Adolf Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator." -- Adolf Hitler, Mein
Kampf, p. 46
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 52

"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Almighty Creator. By fighting the Jews, I am doing the
Lord's work." -- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 65

"We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity...in fact our movement is Christian." --
Adolf Hitler, speech in Passau, 1928

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in
loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to
fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a
Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and
seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against
the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than
ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no
duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is
anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a
Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and
toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go
out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I
believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two
thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed." -- Adolf
Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922

Hitler also evidently DIDN'T ACCEPT EVOLUTION, either:

"Where do we acquire the right to believe that man has not always been what he is now? The study of nature
teaches us that, in the animal kingdom just as much as in the vegetable kingdom, variations have occurred.
They've occurred within the species, but none of these variations has an importance comparable with that
which separates man from the monkey--assuming that this transformation really took place." -- Adolph Hitler,
Hitler's Table Talk, p. 248

"Nothing indicates that development within a species has occurred of a considerable leap of the sort that man
would have to have made to transform him from an apelike condition to his present state." -- Adolph Hitler,
Was Hitler a Darwinian? By Robert Richards

Atheist Dictators Killed Millions of People:

While it's true that mass-murdering dictators like Stalin and Mao were atheists, it's not their atheism that led
to them committing atrocities. The most important characteristic all authoritarian rulers have in common is
that THEY must be the highest authority in their land. THEY are the ones their subjects must worship. Since
religions have gods that are the highest authorities, totalitarian rulers need to either abolish religions (by
embracing atheism) or control them (by either speaking for the gods or controlling the priests who speak for
the gods). Thus, atheism and religion are just tools dictators use to maintain power. The problem isn't
atheism, but the demand for WORSHIP. Furthermore, people often commit atrocities in the name of their
religion, using their scriptures to justify those atrocities. But nobody commits atrocities in the name of
atheism, because atheism has no dogma, no rules, no requirements...except a lack of belief in gods.

Furthermore, it's actually the Bible that justifies evil authoritarian rulers like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc.:
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 53

 Romans 13 1:5 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for THERE IS NO AUTHORITY EXCEPT
THAT WHICH GOD HAS ESTABLISHED. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those
who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for
those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and
you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be
afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring
punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of
possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

Atheism Cannot Account for the Laws of Logic:

Because the laws of logic are immaterial, abstract and universal, they could only come from an immaterial
being. But such an argument is a straw man, since atheism doesn't require belief in only the materialistic
world. Logic, like mathematics, is not materialistic, yet there is no reason to believe both are not part of a
purely naturalistic universe, or even part of an eternal metaverse that spawned our universe. Also, many
Christian philosophers believe that God is omnipotent only as far as what is logically possible (he couldn't
create an object so heavy he couldn't lift it, for example), which would mean logic must exist apart from and
above God, and thus God is not necessary to explain logic. The Bible itself indicates God cannot do absolutely
anything (Hebrews 6:18 It is impossible for God to lie, Titus 1:2 God, that cannot lie), which supports the claim
that God is limited by abstract laws.

The Universe is Too Finely Tuned not to have been Created by God:
This is just an argument from ignorance fallacy. We don't know if it's even possible for the universal constants
to turn out any differently. And for all we know is could be an oscillating universe or part of a multiverse of an
infinite number of universes, each with different physics, potentially making this particular universe inevitable.
According to the anthropic principle, only in a universe capable of supporting life will one find beings capable
of contemplating fine tuning. Also, changes to MULTIPLE universal constants could result in the same universe.
But 99.99999+% of the universe is lethal to life as we know it, making our universe not only NOT fine tuned for
life, but hostile to it. More amusingly, this argument can be countered by using the "proof" for the existence
of the Flying Spaghetti Monster: http://www.debate.org/opinions/does-the-flying-spaghetti-monster-exist

It's Better to Believe in God Just in Case he Exists:

A.k.a. "Pascal's Wager." Apart from the fact that belief isn't something that you can just choose to do (just try
to force yourself to believe in the Tooth Fairy), and apart from the fact that if God exists he would surely know
that you're just pretending in order to hedge your bets, the thousands of religions in the world show just how
small your odds of choosing the "right" religion actually are. And what if the "real" God values critical thinking
and thus only saves those who don't believe he exists? So is it worth wasting time, money and opportunities
on the tiny chance you'll guess correctly? Finally, if God loves us and forgives us, would he forgive someone for
not believing he exists without being asked? If he would, then there is no need to believe in or worship him. If
not, then he doesn't love us or forgive us.

Is the US a Christian Nation?

Christians often claim that the US is a Christian nation based on Christian principles. Clearly most Americans
are Christian, but this nation was FOUNDED on the principle of FREEDOM of and from religion. Many of the
most important and influential Founding Fathers were deists and Unitarians, not Christians, and this is
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 54

reflected in the founding documents. Jesus and Christianity appear exactly ZERO times in our founding
documents (although there are references to such deistic terms as "nature's God").

The Positions of Our Founding Fathers:

 "The government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion."
-- Unanimously approved by the Senate and signed by John Adams
 "Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the
homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." -- Thomas Jefferson
 "Because religious belief, OR NON-BELIEF, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of
religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and
force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the
church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion.
Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free
society." -- Thomas Jefferson
 "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their
legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise
thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state." -- Thomas Jefferson
 "Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt,
tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the
effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery
and error all over the earth." -- Thomas Jefferson
 "Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law." -- Thomas Jefferson
 "Science is the true theology." -- Thomas Paine
 "That God cannot lie, is no advantage to your argument, because it is no proof that priests can not, or that
the Bible does not." -- Thomas Paine
 "Take away from Genesis the belief that Moses was the author, on which only the strange believe that it is
the word of God has stood, and there remains nothing of Genesis but an anonymous book of stories,
fables, and traditionary or invented absurdities, or of downright lies." -- Thomas Paine
 "The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every
principle of moral justice." -- Thomas Paine
 "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions,
the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent
that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to
corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel." --
Thomas Paine
 "There are matters in the Bible, said to be done by the express commandment of God, that are shocking to
humanity and to every idea we have of moral justice." -- Thomas Paine
 "Thomas did not believe the resurrection [John 20:25], and, as they say, would not believe without having
ocular and manual demonstration himself. So neither will I, and the reason is equally as good for me, and
for every other person, as for Thomas. -- Thomas Paine
 "What is it the Bible teaches us? - raping, cruelty, and murder. What is it the New Testament teaches us? -
to believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married, and the belief
of this debauchery is called faith." -- Thomas Paine
 "As to the book called the Bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and
contradictions, and a history of bad times and bad men. There are but a few good characters in the whole
book." -- Thomas Paine
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 55

 "The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun, in which they put a man whom they call
Christ, in the place of the Sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the Sun." --
Thomas Paine
 "Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of
sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was
in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have
reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes
carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society." -- George Washington
 "We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the
power of bigotry and superstition… In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast,
that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of
attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States." -- George Washington
 "The civil government functions with complete success by the total separation of the Church from the
State." -- James Madison
 "In regard to religion, mutual toleration in the different professions thereof is what all good and candid
minds in all ages have ever practiced, and both by precept and example inculcated on mankind." -- Samuel
Adams
 "No religious doctrine shall be established by law." -- Elbridge Gerry
 "Some very worthy persons, who have not had great advantages for information, have objected against
that clause in the constitution which provides, that no religious test shall ever be required as a
qualification to any office or public trust under the United States. They have been afraid that this clause is
unfavorable to religion. But my countrymen, the sole purpose and effect of it is to exclude persecution,
and to secure to you the important right of religious liberty." -- Oliver Ellsworth
 "Congress has no power to make any religious establishments." -- Roger Sherman
 "The legislature of the United States shall pass no law on the subject of religion. -- Charles Pinckney

More: http://addictinginfo.com/2018/07/30/35-founding-father-quotes-conservative-christians-will-hate/

Our Legal System and the Ten Commandments:

Apologists often claim that our legal system is BASED ON the Ten Commandments listed in Exodus 20:2-17.
Here is the evidence that not only are our laws NOT based on the Ten Commandments, but what the
consequences would be if we did:

1. You shall have no other gods before me:

Our FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF RELIGION means it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and ILLEGAL to
make any laws forbidding people from worshiping any gods they want, or none at all.
If it were made law: Everyone would be required to be Christian (although PERHAPS there would be an
exception for Jews and maybe even Muslims). 30% of the US population would be breaking the law.

2. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on
the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve
them:
Our FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF RELIGION means it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and ILLEGAL to
make any laws forbidding people from creating and worshiping idols if they so choose.
If it were made law: Drawing pictures (except for the most abstract art), photography, sculpture, X-ray
machines, MRIs, perhaps even telescopes and microscopes would be illegal. Although some Christian sects
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 56

prohibit ALL representative art, most Christians believe this only applies to idols for worship, that would still
cause a problem for Christians who worship images of Jesus and Mary. Even empty crosses are unacceptable
to some Christian sects.

3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain:
Most theologians believe this refers only to breaking oaths sworn in the name of God, but most Christians
believe it applies to using God's name as profanity. Either way, our FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS protecting
both FREEDOM OF SPEECH and FREEDOM OF RELIGION mean it is both UNCONSTITUTIONAL and ILLEGAL to
make laws preventing the use of God's name as profanity.
If it were made law: If referring only to breaking oaths sworn in the name of God, this would have little effect.
If referring to using God's name as profanity, then hundreds of millions of Americans would be subject to legal
action.

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work:
While there is some dispute over whether the Sabbath falls on Saturday or Sunday, there are NO laws
preventing people from working any day they wish. In fact, millions of businesses around the country are open
on Saturday or Sunday, and almost everyone at least occasionally spends the weekend catching up on work.
If it were made law: Since the Roman Emperor Constantine changed the original Sabbath to Sunday, Saturday
would likely be made the "day of rest." The remaining six days one would have to work. The Sabbath was
intended as a day of worship of God for the ENTIRE day, so nobody would be allowed to have any fun or even
catch up on chores. There would also be no utilities, emergency services, medical care, police protection or
military action allowed. There goes the weekend....

5. Honor your father and your mother:

NO laws exist that require children to honor their parents. If anything, if parents are abusive, children are
ENCOURAGED to not honor them, and instead report them to the police.
If it were made law: This commandment is unconditional, meaning children would be required to honor and
obey even a parent who raped, tortured, enslaved or otherwise abused them. They would not be able to
report their abusive parent to the police. Millions of children could be physically, mentally and emotionally
damaged for life as a consequence.

6. You shall not murder:

No society can exist without laws that prevent its citizens from slaughtering one another whenever they feel
like it. Thus, prohibitions against murder have ALWAYS existed in human civilizations, including all non-
Christian societies. The Code of Hammurabi, for example, contains laws against killing, and it was created
HUNDREDS of years before Moses supposedly received the Ten Commandments.
If it were made law: Originally "thou shalt not kill," which would clearly be impossible to follow (since
SOMETHING must die in order for us to eat), so most Christians consider "kill" to be a mistranslation of
"murder." But murder means "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another," which
means the commandment would be a law that prohibits a killing that is against the law...which is redundant.
Still, laws based on this commandment would likely change little (since murder laws have always existed in all
human societies), although such an important commandment is woefully undefined and one could justify a
law that forbids killing of ANY kind, including self-defense.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 57

7. You shall not commit adultery:

Adultery is a factor in divorce settlements, but there are no enforceable laws that prosecute adulterers. As
long as all partners are in agreement, a married couple can have sex with others and the law won't get
involved at all.
If it were made law: Ancient Hebrews considered women to be property, and adultery was considered sex
with a woman already MARRIED to someone else. Laws based on this commandment would make it illegal for
married women to have sex with other men, but not for men (married or not) to have sex with unmarried
women.

8. You shall not steal:

As with murder, no society can exist without laws that prevent its citizens from taking whatever they want
from someone without permission. Thus, prohibitions against theft have ALWAYS existed in human
civilizations, including all non-Christian societies. It too is found in the Code of Hammurabi.
If it were made law: The Talmudic interpretation of this commandment as "you shall not kidnap" has led some
theologians to believe this commandment was only meant to apply to unjustly abducting people--which was
considered as serious an offense as murder and adultery, while regular theft was not. But either way, making
laws based on this commandment would likely have little impact on our society because such laws already
exist in EVERY society.

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor:

Also found in the Code of Hammurabi, this commandment originally applied only in court, although most
Christians today believe it applies to lying of all types. However, although there are certain exceptions (such as
in court and in legal contracts), our laws PROTECT the right to express your opinion, even if it is a lie, because
of the FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH.
If it were made law: Since bearing false witness appears to have originally referred to lying in a court of law,
not against lying in general, and all societies already have laws against this, that much of the commandment
wouldn't have much of an impact on us. However, what is the "neighbor" referred to in the commandment?
Someone who lives nearby? Or does it apply to everyone? If everyone, what is the point in adding "against thy
neighbor" to the commandment? If NOT everyone, then it MUST be okay to lie about non-neighbors.

10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his
male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your
neighbor:
The American economy is BASED on the concept of coveting your neighbor's possessions. It's called "keeping
up with the Joneses" and it goes back at least as far as the right to the pursuit of happiness. There's certainly
no law against desiring what someone else has.
If it were made law: Does "covet" mean ANY form of desire or just excessive desire? If the latter, how do you
measure "excessive"? And what kind of laws could enforce not coveting your neighbor's possessions? Arrest
anyone who expresses a desire for something a neighbor owns? Force people to sign statements expressing
only mild interest in items they wish to buy? And does the use of the word "neighbor" mean it's okay to covet
the possessions of non-neighbors? Also problematic is that some translations of the commandment use the
term "slaves" instead of "male servant" and "female servant," so laws based on this commandment could
justify legalizing slavery.

Summary of unfortunate potential laws based on the Ten Commandments:

 Required worship of the Christian God only
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 58

 No representative art of any kind

 Legal action against anyone using God's name in profanity
 Six-day work weeks
 No work or play of any kind on the Sabbath, only worship
 No resisting or reporting an abusive parent
 No killing in self-defense
 No sex with another's wife, although sex between a married man and an unmarried woman is fine
 No lying in a court of law except against non-neighbors
 No buying anything you really want

More: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKsDrJxWKi8, https://www.youtube.com/watch?

v=WnEcQ_OVsVk, http://atheism.about.com/od/tencommandments/a/analysis.htm

Is Abortion Anti-Christian?
Even though abortions have existed since at least as far back as the ancient Greeks, the Bible says NOTHING
against abortion (which is very strange, considering how big of an issue this is for many Christians). However,
apologists will often claim that certain passages imply abortion is wrong:

 Exodus 21:22-25 If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth
prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him,
and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty
life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound,
bruise for bruise.

This implies that the passage refers to the WOMAN'S injury, not the fetus's, since fetuses lack teeth and it
would be virtually impossible to burn a fetus without killing the mother.

 Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This implies that the MOTHER sinned, not David. But either way, there is no indication that this is God's belief,
rather than just David's belief.

 Luke 1:44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

Ancient Hebrews had no separate word for "fetus," so they used the term for "baby." Also, God once used the
term "nations" to refer to fetuses that clearly hadn't become nations yet, indicating he uses terms
prematurely:

 Genesis 25:21 22 But the children struggled together within her; and she said, "If it is so, why then am I
this way?" So she went to inquire of the LORD. The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb; and
two peoples will be separated from your body; and one people shall be stronger than the other; and the
older shall serve the younger."

Furthermore, according to the Babylonian Talmud of Judaism, the embryo is considered to be "mere fluid"
until the fortieth day of pregnancy, and a fetus is considered only subhuman or pre-human until it has
emerged halfway from its mother. Abortions are acceptable if the mother's life is in danger:
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 59

 Ohalot 7:6 If a woman was in hard travail, the child must be cut up while it is in the womb and brought out
member by member, since the life of the mother has priority over the life of the child; but if the greater
part of it was already born, it may not be touched, since the claim of one life cannot override the claim of
another life.

Also, Adam wasn't considered a "living soul" until God put the breath of life into him, implying that a person
isn't fully human until taking his first breath:

 Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils
the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

And when a widowed woman was discovered to be three months pregnant, she was accused of being a
prostitute and ordered burned to death WITHOUT waiting for the baby to be born:

 Genesis 38:24 About three months later Judah was told, "Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of
prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant." Judah said, "Bring her out and have her burned to
death!"

Indeed, it's not only fetuses that God doesn't treat as human lives in the Bible, neither are babies and young
children less than one month old:

 Leviticus 27:2-7 "If anyone makes a special vow to dedicate a person to the Lord by giving the equivalent
value, set the value of a male between the ages of twenty and sixty at fifty shekels of silver, according to
the sanctuary shekel; for a female, set her value at thirty shekels; for a person between the ages of five
and twenty, set the value of a male at twenty shekels and of a female at ten shekels; FOR A PERSON
BETWEEN ONE MONTH AND FIVE YEARS, set the value of a male at five shekels of silver and that of a
female at three shekels of silver; for a person sixty years old or more, set the value of a male at fifteen
shekels and of a female at ten shekels."
 Numbers 3:15 "Number the sons of Levi by their fathers' households, by their families; every male FROM A
MONTH OLD AND UPWARD you shall number." So Moses numbered them according to the word of the
LORD, just as he had been commanded.

More: http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_biblh.htm

When Roe v. Wade was passed in 1973, many Christian denominations SUPPORTED abortion rights until
Republicans made it a political issue (http://billmoyers.com/2014/07/17/when-southern-baptists-were-pro-
choice/), and most people (including hundreds of millions of Christians) are PRO-CHOICE
(http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/27/5-facts-about-abortion/). In fact, CHRISTIANS OBTAIN
70% OF ABORTIONS (http://www.christianpost.com/news/70-of-women-who-get-abortions-identify-as-
christians-survey-finds-150937/). Unfortunately, most Christian conservatives are not really "pro-life" but PRO-
BIRTH, since they generally do not support liberal programs to make birth control easily available, reduce child
poverty, provide child care, and eliminate the death penalty (THAT would be pro-life). Instead they support
"abstinence only" education, which has proven to be a failure.

Also, nobody considers gametes (sperm and ova) to be human life, even though they are clearly alive
(otherwise Christians would be calling wet dreams and menstruation murder). Claiming that as soon as
gametes come together they are suddenly human makes little sense (do we consider someone who eats a
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 60

fried egg to be eating a fried chicken?), especially since they remain a single cell (zygote) with only SLIGHTLY
more potential to become human life than the individual gametes.

Half of all fertilized eggs do not implant anyway, often due to controllable factors such as a woman being
underweight. Should women be forced to maintain ideal implantation weight? Or take drugs to ensure
implantation? Some popular forms of birth control also prevent conception from even occurring, which results
in FEWER failed implantations of fertilized eggs than using NO birth control. Then there's the fact that a fetus
is unlikely to have the capacity to experience pain until the third trimester.

As for those who only support abortion in the case of rape or incest, if discarding an embryo that is the result
of rape isn't murder, then doing the same thing for an embryo that is the result of a consensual relationship
isn't murder either. Similarly, few people have problems with discarding embryos that were fertilized in-vitro,
and if that isn't murder then discarding embryos that were fertilized through sex isn't murder either. In all
these cases, there are no differences between the embryos.

Finally, by eliminating a woman's right to choose whether or not she wishes to bring a baby to term, she is
reduced to an obligated baby-making machine. Christians would object to forcing a woman to put her own life
at risk by donating a kidney to a dying child, right? So what is the justification for forcing a woman to risk her
life carrying a fetus to term?

Clearly human life is a gradual PROCESS, with gametes on one end and a born baby on the other, and the
actual point of becoming human life lies somewhere in between. Because of this ambiguity, it is unreasonable
to impose one's own beliefs on when human life begins. That decision should be left up to the individual
parents...which is the pro-choice position.

Are Christian Conservatives on the Right Side of the "Social War"?

Note that in struggles between conservatives and liberals on social issues, the conservatives are usually the
most resistant, angry and mobilized...initially. But then the liberal idea spreads and eventually wins over the
majority of the population. Thus, the conservatives win most of the battles...and then lose the war.

Freedom of religion and speech:

Christian conservatives once used the Bible to fight against these rights:

 Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

 Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

Slavery:
Christian conservatives used biblical scripture to support slavery:

 Leviticus 25:44-46 Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you
may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their
clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as
inherited property and can make them slaves for life.
 Exodus 21:7 If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 61

Women's rights:
Christian conservatives used biblical scripture to resist equal rights for women:

 1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the
woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
 1 Corinthians 14:34-36 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak,
but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their
own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
 Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of
the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the
church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
 Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
 1 Timothy 2:11-15 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow
a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first
created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into
transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children.
 Titus 2:4-5 Encourage the young women ... to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to
their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.
 1 Peter 3:1 Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands.

Gay marriage:
Gay marriage has only recently come to mainstream acceptance, as most people have realized it is immoral to
marginalize people simply because they're attracted to people of the same sex. Christian conservatives,
however, point to the Bible to justify prejudice:

 Leviticus 18:22 Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.
 Leviticus 20:13 If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have
done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Government:
Christian conservatives generally support smaller government and lower taxes, decrying what they believe is
excessive government overreach and excessive spending on social programs. They also (unjustly) like to blame
atheism for the evil authoritarian governments of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. But they conveniently ignore
what the Bible says about this:

 Romans 13 1:7 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for THERE IS NO AUTHORITY EXCEPT
THAT WHICH GOD HAS ESTABLISHED. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those
who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for
those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and
you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be
afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring
punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of
possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities
are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: IF YOU
OWE TAXES, PAY TAXES; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 62

Are Christians persecuted like Jesus was?

Christians are often very quick to use the "persecution" claim even when it makes no sense. Overseas,
Muslims are more persecuted than Christians. And in the US Christians are NOT persecuted, at least not like
Jesus--they're never arrested, tortured and murdered for their beliefs (although they often mistake privilege
for rights, which means they feel persecuted when they're required to be treated the same as everyone else).
They also often defend fellow Christians who are accused of misconduct (Donald Trump, Roy Moore, etc.),
claiming Christian persecution even though an accusation of misconduct doesn't fall into the category of
"righteous" persecution:

 Matthew 5:10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of
heaven.

Christians also tend to resent and attack those whom they believe are persecuting them, which is not how the
Bible expects them to behave:

 Romans 12: 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.

EVOLUTION vs. CREATIONISM:

Creationists often claim that evolutionary theory isn't a science and that creationism (a.k.a. intelligent
design) is scientific. I rarely give comprehensive defenses of evolution anymore because almost no creationists
are even equipped to understand the evidence. However, short and simple examples for why evolutionary
theory is vastly superior to creationism can be effective.

A comprehensive source of refutations of creationist claims: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

A list of common misperceptions about evolution:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/misconceptions_faq.php

Understanding Science:
The undeniable EFFECTIVENESS of science can be demonstrated by the sheer quantity of technology
surrounding us that makes the modern world even possible. And it's the scientific method that forms the basis
of scientific advancement.

Fact, Hypothesis, Theory and Law:

Creationists commonly demonstrate their lack of scientific understanding by claiming evolution is "only a
theory" that hasn't become a "fact" or a law. Their mistake is to equate the scientific term "theory" with the
common meaning of "conjecture" or "guesswork." But in science a THEORY is "a well-substantiated
explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly
confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not 'guesses' but reliable
accounts of the real world." (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/theory). Thus, a theory in science is
equivalent to what people commonly refer to as a "fact." A HYPOTHESIS is "a tentative explanation for an
observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation," which is the
closest scientific term to what people commonly mean when they use the term theory. A FACT in science is
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 63

merely an observation (such as undisturbed fossils being ordered by lineage, all species being based on DNA,
etc.). And a LAW is "a statement based on repeated experimental observations that describes some aspects of
the universe," and thus is not an explanation for a phenomenon. So a hypothesis is a tentative explanation for
a phenomenon, typically based on observed facts and laws, and a theory is a hypothesis that has undergone
extensive testing and has a wide body of supportive evidence. A theory is the HIGHEST level of explanatory
certainty in science.

FOR A THEORY TO BE SCIENTIFIC, it MUST make testable predictions that could prove the claim FALSE, and
the claim MUST be reproducible so others can verify the results. Every genuine test of a theory is an attempt
to prove it false, and the more falsifiable predictions a theory makes, the better. Since a theory is always
subject to further discoveries of evidence, which could potentially prove the theory false, a theory is ALWAYS
considered provisional. That means evidence can never prove a theory TRUE, only FALSE. However, the more
evidence that supports a theory, the more confidence we have that the theory is an accurate explanation for
the phenomenon. Any theory that cannot be refuted by some conceivable evidence is not scientific, and
irrefutability is not a virtue for a scientific theory.

One way to test whether a claim is scientific is to ASK THE FOLLOWING QUESTION: If this claim is true, what
testable predictions can we make to prove the claim false, and what evidence should we expect to find?

Is Creationism/Intelligent Design Scientific?

Creationists often claim that creationism/intelligent design is scientific, at least as much as if not more so than
evolution. However, any form of creationism that cannot be tested to potentially prove it false is NOT
scientific by definition. (More: http://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/id_checklist)

Young-Earth Creationism (YEC) does make some claims that can be tested; however, the tests cannot prove
the nonexistence of a god or gods (it's impossible to disprove such a universal negative), although they can
prove that the Bible contains false information.

YEC's Claim: All living species were created by the biblical God over the course of a week 6,000 years ago. The
most testable claims are those involving Noah's Flood, which supposedly occurred 4,200 years ago (2345 BCE).

Creationism's Predictions: The Evidence:

Since Adam and Eve were Mitochondrial/chromosomal evidence reveals the most recent woman from whom all
created 6,000 years ago, current women descended in an unbroken line lived about 180,000 years ago, and the
genetic evidence should man from whom all current men descended in an unbroken line lived about 210,000
indicate that the people whose years ago. They were from different populations when they lived and it is highly
genes we all inherited lived unlikely they ever met.
6,000 years ago.
(More:
https://biologos.org/blogs/dennis-venema-letters-to-the-duchess/understanding-
evolution-mitochondrial-eve-y-chromosome-adam)
Since there was a worldwide Geological evidence reveals a variety of deserts, mountains, forests, etc. that were
flood 4,200 years ago, there never interrupted by a global flood.
should be PHYSICAL evidence
of that flood. The ice caps on the poles and Greenland show up to 800,000 years of ice layers with
no evidence of disruption by flooding, and the ice caps couldn't have formed in
contemporary climes at all.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 64

Wyoming's Green River formation has layers (varves) representing millions of years of
gentle (not violent) sedimentation.

(More: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html)
There should also be The city of Ur of the Chaldees in ancient Sumer (where Noah supposedly lived) was a
HISTORICAL evidence of a prominent city from about 2400 BCE until about 2285 BCE. Its historical record is not
global flood 4,200 years ago interrupted by any massive flooding.
(2345 BCE).
Babylon rose to power about 2400 BCE with no break in their history due to a flood.

The well-documented 5th and 6th Egyptian dynasties ruled from about 2465 BCE until
2000 BCE, with no interruption to their historical record, nor any mention of any
global flood.

The Harappan civilization existed in India from 2300 BCE until 1900 BCE, with no
record of a global flood. Ironically, their civilization appears to have ended because of
a long-term drought.

Chinese history begins around 3000 BCE. Their historical record shows that Emperor
Yao ruled from 2356 BCE until 2255 BCE, with no interruption by any flood. Also, if
their civilization had been completely wiped out and replaced by Noah's descendants,
how would they know about the old Chinese calendar and why would they use it?

The oldest calendar is from the Yazidis religion in northern Iraq, and it is over 6,700
years old (it began in 4750 BCE). They lived right through when the flood supposedly
occurred.
All living humans descended Less than 150 years after the flood, there were enough people to build Stonehenge
from just eight survivors of the and the pyramids. There were also enough people to populate numerous cities
flood, so subsequent mentioned in the Bible, as well as all of Egypt, Mesopotamia, the Indus Valley, China,
population growth MUST fit the Americas, and more. That's a population of eight stone-age people growing to a
realistic population growth population of tens of millions of people and spreading all around the world and
dynamics. accomplishing massive tasks all within 150 years (just 7.5 generations). Such rapid
growth in human population alone FAR exceeds what is biologically possible, and
doesn't even take into account deaths from disease, war and natural disaster.

All those civilizations also originally had their own fully-developed cultures that would
have been completely wiped out by a global flood. Noah's descendants would have
had to completely reconstitute all the languages, writing, religions, professions,
technologies and other unique societal developments of those civilizations within 150
years, and accomplish this so flawlessly that their historical records show no
interruption (nor any of them mention any global flood).

(More: https://thewordofme.wordpress.com/2008/07/12/more-evidence-against-
noahs-flood/)
Burial by the flood caused the Except for small local flood examples that have occurred throughout history, the fossil
fossil record, thus all fossil record is sorted by lineage, not by flood dynamics. That would be impossible if
species MUST be sorted by creationism is true.
flood dynamics.
(More: http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/worldwideflood.htm)
All living animals descended Many slow-traveling species like ants, snails, sloths, koalas, tortoises, flightless birds,
from just two to seven etc. would have been incapable of traveling many thousands of miles both by land
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 65

survivors of each species 4,200 and by sea to their current natural habitats on the other side of the world. They would
years ago, so subsequent also have had to find sufficient food for their specific diets and reproduce while being
population growth MUST fit preyed upon by species dependent on them.
realistic population growth
dynamics. Most plants and their seeds could not have survived immersion in water for a year,
and most fish could not have survived in silt-laden fresh water caused by the flood.

(More: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html)
Additional Testable Claims:
Since the Bible says millions of A few million Israelites and their herd animals on the march would have stretched out
Israelites wandered the hundreds of miles, though the widest point on the Sinai Peninsula is only 120 miles.
Egyptian desert for 40 years, it
should be logistically possible They would have needed a minimum of tens of thousands of tons of food, water and
and there should be ample fuel per day to survive.
archaeological evidence that
this happened. They would have excreted thousands of tons of human and animal waste per day (and
those in back couldn't have avoided constantly walking through it).

There would have been many hundreds of human and animal births and deaths per
day, and there were just THREE priests to officiate all the ceremonies and sacrifices!).

There is NO EVIDENCE of any massive campsites, nor even evidence of any Israelite
campsites AT ALL, anywhere in Egypt. Nor is there any Egyptian historical record of
ANYTHING in Exodus.

(More: http://apastasea.blogspot.com/2014/12/complaining-about-exodus-
movie.html)

There are many, MANY other problems with the Noah's flood claim, detailed here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

Can creationists be trusted?

By their own admission, the leading creationist organizations (Answers in Genesis, Creation Ministries
International, Creation Research Society, Institute for Creation Research) cannot be trusted to tell the truth in
regards to scientific evidence. From the Answers in Genesis Statement of Faith: "By definition, no apparent,
perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the
scriptural record" (https://answersingenesis.org/about/faith/). That's right...they are required to IGNORE any
evidence that contradicts their religious belief. That means they make their claims in exclusion of the evidence
that proves their claims wrong. (See also https://creation.com/what-we-believe and
https://creationresearch.org/statement-of-belief/.)

YECs believe in "intelligent design" and often refer to arguments made by lead advocate for ID, Michael Behe.
He claims that some biological features are "irreducibly complex" and could not have evolved naturally
(although he has failed to provide any credible evidence for this claim). However, he also accepts the evidence
for an ancient Earth, common descent, macroevolution, etc. He believes in "theistic evolution," the claim that
God directed natural evolutionary forces to create humankind. YECs accept his claim for irreducible complexity
while ignoring all his other conclusions, indicating a lack of interest in the evidence. Furthermore, intelligent
design failed when tested for scientific legitimacy during the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial (detailed elsewhere in this
document).
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 66

Is Evolutionary Theory Scientific?

Evolutionary Theory's Claim: All living species evolved slowly from a single common ancestor that existed
billions of years ago. From the beginning, evolutionary theory made several critical testable predictions that
would disprove it if they turned out to be false. Examples:

Evolutionary Theory's The Evidence: Comparison to YEC:

Predictions:
Since all species evolved from a Two years after Darwin published his theory, the Since all species were
common ancestor over time, first transitional fossil (Archaeopteryx) was individually created by God,
transitional species MUST exist discovered. there should be NO
in the fossil record (even though transitional species in the
none had been discovered Since then we have discovered hundreds, fossil record.
before they were predicted). perhaps thousands of transitional fossils

(More: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-
transitional.html)
Since all species descend from Of the untold millions of dated fossils discovered If fossils were all caused in
an ancestral species, no species over the more than 150 years since Darwin's one catastrophic flood, the
can appear earlier in the fossil theory was published, not a single confirmed fossil record should be sorted
record than a species from which fossil has been found in older geological strata only by flood dynamics.
it descended. than its ancestral species.

(More:
http://palaeobabbler.blogspot.com/2012/01/ho
w-to-falsify-evolution-using-fossil.html)
Since all species evolved from a The eventual discovery of DNA proved that all Since all species were
common ancestor, ALL species species are constructed using the same individually created by God,
MUST be constructed using the modifiable pattern. there is no reason why all
same basic pattern that can be species would HAVE to be
modified in some way. (More: http://eveloce.scienceblog.com/16/dna- based on the same modifiable
proves-evoution/) pattern.
Since all species descended from That proof was the later discovery of mutations in If God's creation was perfect,
an earlier ancestor, there MUST all species (each human has about 60 mutations there is no reason why
be some mechanism that that differ from his/her parents' genomes). species MUST be subject to
introduces change to that basic mutation.
pattern, upon which natural (More: http://www.livescience.com/33347-
selection can act. mutants-average-human-60-genetic-
mutations.html)
Since the process of evolution is In the 1900s, the discovery of multiple Radiometric dating should
extremely slow, the Earth must radiometric dating techniques allowed us to date show that the Earth was
be AT LEAST many millions of the Earth to 4.54 billion years old (with 99% formed only about 6,000
years old. accuracy). years ago.

(More: http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?
key=2901)

Since evolutionary theory makes numerous testable claims that could prove the theory false, it is scientific.
And more than 150 years of accumulated evidence have only strengthened the theory. This is why 98.5% of all
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 67

life and earth scientists accept evolution and reject creationism. (More:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA111.html)

Evidence Supporting Evolutionary Theory:

Examples of Evidence for Evolution:
Fossil record:
Despite the difficulty and rarity of fossilization, the fossil record is full of species that can be seen to change
incrementally over time through the geological layers, and all fossils are sorted by lineage in undisturbed
strata. Radiometric and other dating techniques can accurately determine the age of the fossils, and they
reveal the slow process of speciation in line with evolutionary theory. (More:
https://www.agiweb.org/news/evolution/examplesofevolution.html)

Transitional species:
Transitional fossils MUST exist in order for evolution to be true. The first transitional fossil (Archaeopteryx,
possessing the toothed jaws, bony tail and clawed fingers characteristic of theropod dinosaurs, as well as the
wings, flight feathers and wishbone characteristic of birds) was discovered two years after On the Origin of
Species was published. Since then, HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS have been found. One of the more recent
discoveries is Tiktaalik roseae. Researchers knew that there had to be a transitional species between the 380
million-year-old fish and the 363 million-year-old tetrapods (four-legged amphibians) previously discovered.
They predicted that the species would possess scales, fins and other features similar to their fish ancestry, but
also possess the mobile neck, wrist joints, etc. found in tetrapods. So researchers searched geological strata
dated between those two periods, where they found remains of the 375 million-year-old Tiktaalik roseae.
While Tiktaalik is not necessarily THE direct ancestor of modern land vertebrates, it is clearly a transitional
fossil, and the fact that both its time period and appearance were PREDICTED before its discovery is powerful
confirmation of evolutionary theory. (More: http://tiktaalik.uchicago.edu/searching4Tik.html,
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/lines_03)

Universal genetic code:

The cells from any species can read the DNA of ANY OTHER species (which is why interspecies genetic
engineering is possible). This supports the notion that all species are genetically related through a common
ancestor. To creationists who may respond by saying, "same design, same designer," note that human, insect,
flatworm and snail eyes are all radically different. So does that mean "different design, different designer" (i.e.,
multiple gods)? (More: http://www.encyclopedia.com/science-and-technology/biology-and-genetics/genetics-
and-genetic-engineering/genetic-code)

Comparative DNA:
Humans share at least 99.5% of genes with other humans, approximately 98% of genes with chimpanzees,
93% with monkeys, 92% with mice, 90% with cats, 84% with dogs, 80% with cows, 60% with chickens, 44%
with fruit flies, 26% with yeast, 18% with plants, 7% with bacteria. This strongly indicates shared ancestry, and
the lower the percentage, the farther back in time our ancestries diverged. (More:
https://blog.23andme.com/23andme-and-you/genetics-101/genetic-similarities-of-mice-and-men/)

Chromosomes:
Despite humans having nearly identical DNA to chimpanzees, humans have 46 chromosomes to chimpanzees'
48 chromosomes. If we share a relatively recent common ancestor, why the difference? Each chromosome has
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 68

a centromere in the middle and a telomere capping each end. However, human chromosome 2 has TWO
centromeres and TWO telomeres in the MIDDLE of the chromosome, which is evidence of two chromosomes
fusing together at the ends. Furthermore, the extra centromere and telomeres line up with the extra
chromosome found in chimpanzees. (More: http://www.reasons.org/articles/chromosome-2-the-best-
evidence-for-evolution, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK3O6KYPmEw)

ERVs:
When a retrovirus infects a host, a part of the retrovirus' genome can become permanently inserted into the
cell's DNA in a random location. This is called an endogenous retroviral insertion (ERV). If a sex cell acquires an
ERV and reproduces, all descendants of that individual will also possess that ERV in the exact same location in
their DNA. Thus, when we find a species that has that same ERV in the exact same location of its genome, we
can be certain the two species shared a common ancestor. With approximately 1% of human DNA consisting
of ERVs, we can trace our ancestry to multiple other species. The farther away the ancestry, the fewer ERVs
we have in common, and we don't share ANY ERVs with a more distant ancestor that we don't also share with
more recent ancestors (e.g., any ERVs we have in common with cats are also found in chimpanzees). (More:
http://www.skepticink.com/tippling/2013/02/15/endogenous-retroviruses-as-evidence-for-evolution/)

Embryology:
The embryos of all land vertebrates develop gill slits, tails and other characteristics inherited from our fish
ancestors. In human embryos, the gill slits eventually develop into ear and jaw bones, and the tail disappears.
(More: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evodevo_02)

Atavisms:
Many species still possess the suppressed genes of their ancestral lines, which can be re-expressed through a
fault in the genetic control suppressing the gene. Thus, birds can be born with clawed wings and teeth from
their dinosaur ancestors, whales and snakes can be born with legs, and humans can be born with tails, large
canine teeth and extra nipples. (More: http://www.darwinwasright.org/atavism.html)

Vestigial structures:
Physiological structures that species no longer have a use for are usually selected against because they take
energy to maintain and increase risk for disease. However, they can persist if the structures are non-harmful
or if the species adapts the structure for other purposes. Whales and snakes no longer need hips, but they still
possess vestigial pelvic bones. Flightless birds still possess wings. Many cave fish and insects have
nonfunctional eyes. Human vestigial structures include the appendix, goose bumps as a response to cold or
fear, and male nipples. Vestigial structures would have no reason to exist under special creation, but are an
expected consequence of evolution. (More: https://www.boundless.com/biology/textbooks/boundless-
biology-textbook/evolution-and-the-origin-of-species-18/evidence-of-evolution-129/vestigial-structures-524-
13102/)

Bacterial evolution:
Bacteria develop resistance to antibiotics because they acquire that resistance through random mutations,
which is then selected for by the antibiotics wiping out all the nonresistant bacteria. Also, some species of
bacteria have evolved to eat nylon and other plastics exclusively. These food sources didn't exist before 80
years ago, requiring the bacteria to evolve new mechanisms to digest the materials. And bacteria grown in a
nutrient solution with different oxygen levels can speciate multiple times in just ten days. (More:
http://gizmodo.com/scientists-have-discovered-a-bacteria-thats-evolved-to-1764242517)
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 69

Artificial selection:
Fruit flies fed exclusively starch or malt were bred for 52 generations, resulting in two new species that were
no longer fruit flies, but starch flies and malt flies. Fruit flies placed in a lower temperature climate for 260
generations (5 years) resulted in a 3% genetic difference between the new and old species (the difference in
the same genes between humans and chimpanzees is less than 1%). Using artificial selection techniques,
researchers created TRITICOSECALE, a whole new GENUS of plant. (More:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html)

Phylogenetic Tree:
Carl Linnaeus (a creationist, incidentally) created the "nested hierarchy" of species, organizing groups within
groups in a tree structure based on physiology. Some simplified EXAMPLES:

Domain Eukaryotes: Multicellular Eukaryotes: Multicellular Eukaryotes: Multicellular

organisms with cells containing a organisms with cells containing a organisms with cells containing a
nucleus nucleus nucleus
Kingdom Animals: Eukaryotes that consume Animals: Eukaryotes that consume Plants: Non-mobile,
other organisms and have a other organisms and have a photosynthetic organisms
digestive tract digestive tract
Phylum Chordates: Animals with a Chordates: Animals with a Anthophyta: Plants with flowers
backbone backbone
Class Mammals: Chordates with fur/hair Mammals: Chordates with fur/hair Eudiotyledones: Anthophytes with
and milk glands and milk glands seeds possessing two embryonic
leaves
Order Primates: Mammals with collar Carnivorans: Mammals with meat- Fabales: Eudiotyledones food
bones and grasping fingers sheering teeth and four+ toes plants

Family Hominids: Primates with flat faces Canids: Carnivorans with long Fabaceaes: Fabales that are
and binocular vision muzzles, upright ears, bushy tails legumes
Genus Homo: Hominids with upright Canis: Canids with enlarged Pisum: Fabaceaes with edible
postures and large brains sinuses and jaw muscle seeds/fruits encased in pods
attachments
Species Homo sapiens (human): From the Canis lupus (gray wolf): From the Pisum sativum (garden pea): From
Homo genus with a high forehead Canis genus with muscular neck, the Pisum genus with elongated
and thin skull bones broad snout, short ears, long tail green pods

EVERY species can be fitted to this nesting hierarchy, and each species belongs to only a single branch in the
tree structure. So although a whale might resemble a fish, it would not be grouped with fish based on the
characteristics that define fish. Common ancestry is what explains this hierarchy, as species inherit the traits
from the ancestor that first evolved the trait. All mammals produce milk because they inherited milk
production from a common ancestor, and no other lineage possesses that capability. And when we create
completely independent hierarchical life trees based on morphology, genetics, embryology, biochemistry and
geological chronology, they ALL show the SAME tree structure...something that MUST happen if evolution is
true but has no reason to exist if special creation is true. The odds of the morphological trees randomly
matching the biochemical trees is 1 in 1038. Creationism has no explanation for this, nor any comparable
prediction. (More: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_08)
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 70

Abiogenesis:
Abiogenesis is the process of life arising from non-life. Although abiogenesis isn't technically necessary for
evolution to be true, it would be how life occurred through completely natural processes. While abiogenesis
was likely a one-time event that would leave no direct evidence (other than life itself), its viability can be
tested. Experiments using prebiotic molecules and conditions that would have existed on an early Earth
readily result in the spontaneous generation of key building blocks of life: amino acids (which form proteins),
lipids (which form cell membranes), and nucleotides (the building blocks of DNA and RNA). (More:
http://scitechdaily.com/new-evidence-on-the-origins-of-life-on-earth/,
http://study.com/academy/lesson/abiogenesis-definition-theory-evidence.html,
https://scitechdaily.com/chemists-find-potential-missing-link-in-origins-of-life-on-earth/,
http://bigthink.com/philip-perry/our-memory-comes-from-an-ancient-virus-neuroscientists-say)

Examples of Evidence for an Ancient Earth/Universe:

Dendrochronology:
Tree rings are caused by changes in a tree's growth rate over the course of a year (narrow rings in winter,
broad rings in summer), allowing us to determine the exact age of a tree. Although a tree rings only represent
the time the tree was alive, several existing trees are older than when Noah's flood supposedly occurred. The
oldest tree is 5,066 years old, which is 716 years older than the flood. Furthermore, variations in yearly
temperature and precipitation create a comparable pattern in all trees in the same region, making it possible
to match the pattern of rings of living trees to the rings of older dead trees. The overlap of dates allows us to
date trees as far back as 13,900 years (so far). (More: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlMfqzihNTE)

Mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome:

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) passes from mother to offspring without recombination from the father, and it
mutates at a regular rate. Using the mutation rate and tracking the mtDNA in different ethnicities back in time
to a common ancestor, the most recent woman from whom all current women descended in an unbroken line
lived 99,000-234,000 years ago. A similar technique using the Y chromosome found in men reveals that all
current men descended in an unbroken line from a man who lived 120,000-581,000 years ago. Note that this
only represents the surviving lineages. The woman and man were part of relatively large existing populations,
not just two individuals. (More: http://www.livescience.com/38613-genetic-adam-and-eve-uncovered.html)

Decaying DNA:
Upon the death of an organism, its DNA begins to decay. The rate of DNA decay depends on temperature,
acidity and salinity of burial conditions, and can completely decay in as little as 100 years or as much as 1
million years, averaging 100,000 years. Dinosaurs that died in conditions ideal for preserving DNA would still
have detectible DNA if they had died within the last 6,000 years. Instead, NO dinosaur DNA remains. (More:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_against_a_recent_creation)

Ice cores:
Distinct annual layers of ice can be found in continually frozen locations around the world. These layers can be
counted and analyzed using multiple methods, revealing ash deposits from volcanoes that can be confirmed
with known eruptions throughout history, and revealing deposits from the last two ice ages. The most recent
Antarctic cores reveal 800,000 years of layers. (More: http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/ice_core_co2.html,
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icecores.html)
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 71

Rock varnish:
Airborne dust particles slowly accumulate at known rates on exposed rocks in arid environments, allowing us
to date rocks up to 250,000 years old. (More:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_against_a_recent_creation)

Fission tracks:
As uranium within crystal structures decays, the atomic fragments cause tracks to appear in the crystal. The
decay is extremely regular, so counting the tracks gives highly accurate dates up to 700,000 years. (More:
http://apps.usd.edu/esci/creation/age/content/current_scientific_clocks/fission_track_dating.html)

Relativistic jets:
Plasma ejected from quasars and galaxy centers is limited to the speed of light. We have discovered some
relativistic jets exceeding one million light years long, which would have taken that many years to reach that
distance. (More: https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/hea/ea/blazars.html)

Gypsum megacrystals:
Some gypsum megacrystals discovered in a mine in Mexico are over 11 meters long and one meter wide.
Based on the slow formation of such crystals, their age is estimated at over 1 million years. (More:
http://giantcrystals.strahlen.org/library/garciaruiznaica.pdf)

Limestone stalactites:
Calcium carbonate dripping from the ceilings of limestone caves accumulates into stalactites at an average
rate of 4" per thousand years (only non-calcium carbonate stalactites can form faster). We've discovered 60'+
stalactites that would be at least 180,000 years old. Plus, the limestone caves in which these stalactites
formed first required tens of millions of years themselves to form. (More:
http://infidels.org/library/modern/dave_matson/young-earth/specific_arguments/stalactites.html)

Lake varves:
A varve is a seasonal deposit of sediments consisting of a light-colored band of coarse sandy debris deposited
into a lake by rivers during spring and summer, topped by a darker layer of fine clay deposited only after the
lake has frozen over in winter and the water is still enough for the clay to slowly settle out. We see lake varves
being formed even today. By counting the pairs of banded layers, one can determine the age of a lake.
Numerous locations around the world show lake varves representing hundreds of thousands of years of
sedimentation. Wyoming's Green River formation varves reveal over six MILLION years sedimentation. For
that many layers to have occurred since Noah's flood 4,200 years ago, there would have to be 75' of sediment
per DAY, yet somehow still preserve evidence of yearly flamingo nesting. (More:
http://www.ibri.org/Tracts/varvetct.htm)

Continental drift:
The continents surrounding the Atlantic Ocean can be fitted together like puzzle pieces, indicating they were
once assembled into a single land mass (called "Pangea"). The sea floor spreads a few inches per year along
the mid-ocean ridges, giving us a speed for how fast the continents are spreading. Tracing that sea floor
spreading back in time to when the continents were in contact results in 200 million years. Furthermore,
fossils found along the continent edges and dated to 200 million years ago can be matched to fossils found on
the opposing continents, with the species diverging once the continents were no longer in contact. Coal
deposits in both N. America and Europe have the same composition, indicating they were once connected.
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 72

The Earth's magnetic poles wander around on a several thousand-year cycle, and magnetic particles in lava
from volcanoes orients to the magnetic poles, allowing us to trace the movement of the continents over the
course of millions of years. And North America's Appalachian Mountains are part of a chain that are the same
composition as mountain ranges in Greenland and northern Europe. (More:
http://www.livescience.com/38218-facts-about-pangaea.html)

Geomagnetic reversals:
Lava emerging from mid-ocean trenches during sea floor spreading contains iron particles, which orient with
the Earth's magnetic field before the lava cools. This allows us to observe that every 50,000 to 800,000 years
(as measured by continental drift) the magnetic poles switch, and that they can take several thousands of
years to complete. The last reversal occurred 780,000 years ago. The spreading sea floor is reabsorbed at
subduction zones, but we still have a record of at least 8.5 million years of geomagnetic reversals. (More:
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012-poleReversal.html)

Radiometric decay:
All rocks contain radioactive particles that decay from one isotope to another at a constant rate. When rocks
form (from a lava flow, sedimentation or metamorphosis), its radiometric clock begins. By measuring the ratio
of the parent isotope to the daughter isotope in a sample and comparing it to the decay rate, one can
determine the age of the sample. There are more than a dozen types of radiometric dating, allowing for the
dating of a wide variety of materials and increasing the accuracy of dating. Five different techniques have
revealed the age of the Earth to be 4.543 billion years old, with an accuracy of 99%. (More:
https://ncse.com/library-resource/radiometric-dating-does-work,
http://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/evolution/reliability.php)

Moon recession:
Preserved ancient tidal deposits reveal that the Moon orbited the Earth 25% closer than it does today. For this
to fit a 6,000 year old Earth, the Moon would have to be receding at over 15 km per year, instead of the
current rate of 3.8 cm per year. (More: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/moonrec.html)

Asteroid orbits:
By calculating backward in time the orbits of known asteroids, we can determine that several asteroids
impacted other asteroids several million years ago. (More: http://biologos.org/blogs/deborah-haarsma-the-
presidents-notebook/multiple-lines-of-evidence-for-an-old-universe)

Water on Mars:
Evidence of ancient water flows on Mars indicate it once had a thicker atmosphere and warm climate. It would
have taken millions if not billions of years for the atmosphere and climate to reach the present state on Mars.
(More: http://www.nasa.gov/press/2015/march/nasa-research-suggests-mars-once-had-more-water-than-
earth-s-arctic-ocean)

Size of the universe:

The most distant galaxies visible are 13.7 billion light years away, which means the light from those galaxies
took 13.7 billion years to reach us. Although some people have argued that the speed of light was faster in the
past, that conflicts with evidence supporting Einstein's theories, and the distant galaxies would look different
than they do now if the speed of light was once faster. (More: http://www.space.com/24054-how-old-is-the-
universe.html)
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 73

Ancient stars:
Most stars have life spans measured in billions of years. Even the largest, hottest, shortest-lived stars live a
few million years at least. The existence of many observed ancient dead and dying stars indicates the age of
the universe must be in the billions of years. The stars in the oldest globular clusters have been calculated to
be between 11 and 18 billion years old. (More: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-scientists-
determi/)

Expansion of the universe:

The universe is expanding at measurable and calculable rates. By "rewinding" the expansion to when the
entire universe was only a point, the age of the universe has been determined to be 12-14 billion years old.
(More: https://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_age.html)

Cosmic microwave background radiation:

The universe has been cooling ever since its intensely hot beginning. By measuring the current background
radiation temperature, the age of the universe has been accurately determined to be 13.772 billion years old,
give or take 59 million years. (More: http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_tests_cmb.html)

Many more examples are available at http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_against_a_recent_creation and

http://biologos.org/blogs/deborah-haarsma-the-presidents-notebook/multiple-lines-of-evidence-for-an-old-
universe

Creationist Response: Creationists will often claim that God created the universe with the appearance of
age. But if so, he's also given the universe the appearance of HISTORY, which would be as deceptive as
creating an adult human with an old knife scar from a fight that never happened. Some creationists claim that
Satan planted the evidence to trick humanity, but that could only happen if God allowed it, and we can only
work with the evidence we have, not with the evidence we don't have.

Examples of Evidence Against Intelligent Design:

Recurrent laryngeal nerve:
The recurrent laryngeal nerve (RLN) connects the larynx to the brain. In fish (from which all necked
vertebrates evolved), the RLN has a short, direct path from the brain and loops under the aorta. As our
ancestors evolved the neck and larynx, and the heart moved down into the chest, the RLN had no option but
to maintain its loop around the aorta and grow longer and longer. ALL necked vertebrates have thus inherited
this inefficient structure, causing what should be a nerve length of just a few inches to be many times longer.
In humans, the RLN is over a foot longer than it would otherwise be. In giraffes, it is 15' longer. And in the
extinct SUPERSAURUS, it would have been 100' longer! An intelligent designer would never create this
inefficient structure, but evolution had no choice but to work with what was available. (More:
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2011/05/28/the-longest-cell-in-the-history-of-life/)

Eye blind spot:

The human eye has far less acuity, night vision, and spectrum detection than many other animals, which
would seem an odd choice for an intelligent designer who created the universe for us. But stranger still is the
inefficiency of the vertebrate eye, which has its photoreceptors facing backward (requiring light to pass
through tissue and blood vessels before reaching the photoreceptors) and its optic nerve in the back of the
eye (causing a blind spot), unlike the much more efficiently designed cephalopod eye. Evolution has to work
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 74

with what it has, whereas an intelligent designer would have no reason to create such an inefficient eye.
(More: https://thehumanevolutionblog.com/2015/01/12/the-poor-design-of-the-human-eye/)

Urethra routed through prostate:

The urethra in men passes through the prostate gland, which swells with age and restricts the flow of urine.
Evolution has to work with what is available, but no intelligent designer would rout the urethra through the
prostate. (More: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/jury-rigged.html)

The Kitzmiller v. Dover trial:

In 1999, after many years of failed attempts to have intelligent design accepted as a credible scientific theory,
the Discovery Institute (the leading intelligent design organization) produced its "Wedge Document"
describing their plan to see ID accepted as a valid alternative to evolutionary theory. In 2005, the Kitzmiller v.
Dover trial tested whether teaching ID in schools is constitutional. The ID proponents failed because they were
unable to provide any credible scientific evidence to support their claim. Additionally, the lead ID proponent
Michael Behe admitted that ID proponents have never conducted even a single experiment that refutes
evolution:

Eric J. Rothschild (lawyer for the plaintiffs): "Now you have never argued for intelligent design in a peer
reviewed scientific journal, correct?"
Behe: "No, I argued for it in my book."
Rothschild: "Not in a peer reviewed scientific journal?"
Behe: "That's correct."
Rothschild: "And, in fact, there are no peer reviewed articles by anyone advocating for intelligent design
supported by pertinent experiments or calculations which provide detailed rigorous accounts of how
intelligent design of any biological system occurred, is that correct?"
Behe: "That is correct, yes."
Rothschild: "And it is, in fact, the case that in Darwin's Black Box, you didn't report any new data or original
research?"
Behe: "I did not do so."
(From: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/day12am.html)

Behe even admitted that he redefined the word "theory" so that he could claim ID is a scientific theory, and
that ID is no more valid than astrology:

Rothschild: "Now, you claim that intelligent design is a scientific theory."

Behe: "Yes."
Rothschild: "But when you call it a scientific theory, you're not defining that term the same way that the
National Academy of Sciences does."
Behe: "Yes, that's correct."
Rothschild: "You don't always see eye to eye with the National Academy?"
Behe: "Sometimes not."
Rothschild: "And the definition by the National Academy, as I think you testified, is a well-substantiated
explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences and tested
hypotheses, correct?"
Behe: "Yes."
Rothschild: "Using that definition, you agree intelligent design is not a scientific theory, correct?"
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 75

Behe: "Well, as I think I made clear in my deposition, I'm a little bit of two minds of that. I, in fact, do think that
intelligent design is well substantiated for some of the reasons that I made clear during my testimony. But
again, when you say well substantiated, sometimes a person would think that there must be a large number of
people then who would agree with that. And so, frankly, I, like I said, I am of two minds of that."
Rothschild: "And actually you said at your deposition, 'I don't think intelligent design falls under this
definition.' Correct?"
Behe: "Yeah..."
...
Rothschild: "But you are clear, under your definition--the definition that sweeps in intelligent design--
astrology is also a scientific theory, correct?"
Behe: "Yes, that's correct."
(From: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/day11pm.html)

At several points during the trial, all the witnesses for the defense admitted that there are mountains of
scientific support for evolution, and that there is no objective, independent evidence against evolution. Judge
John E. Jones III declared that "The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a
mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory … ID is not supported by any peer-reviewed
research, data, or publications" (More: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2224205/) Here is the
link to the ACLU of Pennsylvania's site for the transcripts of the entire trial:
http://www.aclupa.org/our-work/legal/legaldocket/intelligentdesigncase/dovertrialtranscripts/

The Discovery Institute's Wedge Document had claimed that "Without solid scholarship, research and
argument, the project would be just another attempt to indoctrinate instead of persuade." By their own
standard, their ID project was a failure and "just another attempt to indoctrinate instead of persuade." After
the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial, the Discovery Institute lost almost all relevance. (More:
https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2019/02/05/20-years-ago-the-intelligent-design-movements-wedge-
document-was-exposed/)

"Specified complexity":
Intelligent design proponent William Dembski believes he can mathematically demonstrate that one can
reasonably infer something was designed by an intelligence rather than occurred naturally. There are several
problems with his claim:
1. His formula contains two errors, one of which renders the formula useless for his intent
(http://www.riverrock.org/~howard/Dembski.pdf).
2. He misuses terms and uses calculations that ignore the mechanisms natural selection uses to increase
information (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specified_complexity#Criticisms).
3. Extremely long odds become highly probable given enough time and trials (which is exactly what
evolution has had).
4. We can demonstrate how the basic building blocks of life can develop and become increasingly
complex completely naturally (http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/03/researchers-may-have-
solved-origin-life-conundrum), as well as how life can become increasingly complex on its own, both in
nature and in artificial life simulations (through mutation, chromosome doubling, etc.).

Peer-reviewed scientific articles:

Despite many decades of work and a great amount of funding, the peer-reviewed scientific output from
intelligent design proponents is almost nonexistent. There are more peer-reviewed papers on evolutionary
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 76

biology every WEEK than in the ENTIRE history of ID peer-reviewed scientific articles. And only ONE article
shows any original research. (More: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CI/CI001_4.html)

"Of Pandas and People":

Intelligent design proponents often claim ID has nothing to do with creationism. However, the primary
textbook for ID--"Of Pandas and People"--was discovered to have originally been a creationism textbook. The
ID version simply had all references to creationism replaced with intelligent design. There's even a famous
typo in the ID version where the word "creationists" was replaced by "cdesign proponentsists," ironically
providing an analogy for how evolution works: https://ncse.com/creationism/legal/cdesign-proponentsists

Great Quotes:
"If all the Christians who have called other Christians 'not really a Christian' were to vanish, there'd be no
Christians left." -- Anonymous

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov

"A thorough reading and understanding of the Bible is the surest path to atheism." -- Donald Morgan

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." -- Benjamin Franklin

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you
dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -- Stephen F. Roberts

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and
evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -- Steven Weinberg

"There is nothing we can do to stop the spread of atheism but pray that they treat us better than we have
treated them." -- Christian youth pastor

"I find it incredible that you ask me to believe that the earth was created in six literal days; women come from
a man's rib; a snake, a donkey, and a burning bush spoke human language; the entire world was flooded,
covering the mountains to drown evil; all animal species, millions of them, rode on one boat; language
variations stem from the tower of Babel; Moses had a magic wand; the Nile turned to blood; a stick turned
into a snake; witches, wizards, and sorcerers really exist; food rained from the sky for 40 years; people were
cured by the sight of a brass serpent; the sun stood still to help Joshua win a battle, and it went backward for
King Hezekiah; men survived unaided in a fiery furnace; a detached hand floated in the air and wrote on a
wall; men followed a star which directed them to a particular house; Jesus walked on water unaided; fish and
bread magically multiplied to feed the hungry; water instantly turned into wine; mental illness is caused by
demons; a "devil" with wings exists who causes evil; people were healed by stepping into a pool agitated by
angels; disembodied voiced spoke from the sky; Jesus vanished and later materialized from thin air; people
were healed by Peter's shadow; angels broke people out of jail; a fiery lake of eternal torment awaits
unbelievers under the earth ... while there is life-after-death in a city which is 1,500 miles cubed, with
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 77

mansions and food, for Christians only." -- Dan Barker, former evangelical preacher, and Co-President of
Freedom From Religion Foundation

"You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, food
falling from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories, and you
say that we are the ones that need help?" -- Dan Barker

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is
spoken and rumoured by many. Do not believe in anything because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions
because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you
find anything that agrees with reason and is conductive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it
and live up to it." -- Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha)

"Christianity: The belief that some invisible cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically
eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force
from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from
a magical tree." -- Anonymous

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep
seated need to believe." -- Carl Sagan

"Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof." -- Ashley Montagu

"Let us praise God. Oh Lord, oooh you are so big. So absolutely huge. Gosh, we’re all really impressed down
here I can tell you. Forgive us, O Lord, for this dreadful toadying and barefaced flattery. But you are so strong
and, well, just so super. Fantastic. Amen." -- Michael Palin (as the chaplain in The Meaning of Life)

"Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man--living in the sky--who watches
everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not
want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning
and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry
forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you." -- George Carlin

"Religion is like a pair of shoes...find one that fits for you, but don't make me wear your shoes." -- George
Carlin

"The only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism. It is not a creed. Death is certain,
replacing both the siren-song of Paradise and the dread of Hell. Life on this earth, with all its mystery and
beauty and pain, is then to be lived far more intensely: we stumble and get up, we are sad, confident,
insecure, feel loneliness and joy and love. There is nothing more; but I want nothing more." -- Christopher
Hitchens

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are
never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 78

see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets
than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our
DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our
ordinariness, that are here." -- Richard Dawkins

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it;
a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic,
homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic,
capriciously malevolent bully." -- Richard Dawkins

"I'd say [to God], bone cancer in children? What's that about? How dare you? How dare you create a world to
which there is such misery that is not our fault. It's not right, it's utterly, utterly evil. Why should I respect a
capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain. That's what I
would say." -- Stephen Fry

"Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there.
Theologians can persuade themselves of anything." -- Robert A. Heinlein

"Why should I allow that same God to tell me how to raise my kids, who had to drown his own?" -- Robert G.
Ingersoll

"Monotheism explains order, but is mystified by evil. Dualism explains evil, but is puzzled by order. There is
one logical way of solving the riddle: To argue that there is a single omnipotent God who created the entire
universe--and He's evil. But nobody in history has had the stomach for such a belief." -- Yuval Noah Harari

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." -- Mark Twain

"Strange…a God who could make good children as easily as bad,

yet preferred to make bad ones;
who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short;
mouths Golden Rules and forgiveness
multiplied seventy times seven and invented Hell;
who mouths morals to other people and has none himself;
who frowns upon crimes yet commits them all;
who created man without invitation,
then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man’s acts upon man,
instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself;
and finally with altogether divine obtuseness,
invites this poor, abused slave to worship him!" -- Mark Twain

"To pray to God is to flatter oneself that with words one can alter nature." -- Voltaire

"If you close your eyes, shriek like a little girl, and slap it away anytime it comes near, the Truth will never get
close enough to set you free." -- Rock Cowles

"Why is it easier for some people to believe their ancestors were a clump of mud and a cannibalized body
part, than apes?" -- Rock Cowles
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 79

"We cease to exist every time we go to sleep. That break in awareness includes self-awareness. If you aren't
there, you won't know what you are missing. Death is just the extended version." -- Rock Cowles

"Sometimes standing against evil is more important than defeating it. The greatest heroes stand because it is
right to do so, not because they believe they will walk away with their lives. Such selfless courage is a victory in
itself." -- N.D. Wilson, Dandelion Fire

"Wherever morality is based on theology, wherever the right is made dependent on divine authority, the most
immoral, unjust, infamous things can be justified and established." -- Ludwig Feuerbach

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." -- Sinclair Lewis

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -- Mahatma Gandhi

"True morality is doing what is right without the threat of divine retribution nor the possibility of divine
reward." -- Arthur Paliden

"When you're accustomed to Privilege, Equality Feels like Oppression." -- Anonymous

1. God is good
2. Evil exists
3. God is all-powerful
Pick any two. -- Anonymous

"Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion." -- Jon Stewart

"God sent himself to sacrifice himself to save us from himself." -- Anonymous

"Christianity...the belief that some cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if
you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an
evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to
eat from a magical tree. Makes perfect sense." -- Unknown

"Omnipotence and omniscience are the end of power and knowledge." -- Dejan Stojanovic

"God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself." -- Unknown

"When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression." -- Unknown

"If every Christian who calls any other Christian "not really a Christian" were to disappear, there would be no
Christians left." -- Unknown

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a
collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no
matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to
their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text." – Albert Einstein
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 80

"If nothing in reality would change your beliefs, then your beliefs are not based on reality." -- Unknown

"If what you believe in leaves no verifiable evidence in reality, then there is no reason to conclude that what
you believe in has any basis in reality." -- Underlings

"[Christianity] tastes wonderful going down. But once it gets inside of you, it produces death, not the life that
it promised. This message is fundamentally rooted in the notion that you're so bad the way you are that God
had to kill someone just to get over it." -- Neil Carter

"It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The
hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." -- Billy Graham to Jerry Falwell in 1981

"Purpose of prayer:
1. To convince God your plan is better than his.
2. To educate and inform an omniscient god.
3. To let the source of morals know that something is wrong and should stop.
Have I missed anything?" -- Rosa Rubicondior

Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."

Response #1: ...while the intelligent man says it out loud.
Response #2: Jeremiah 8:8 How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually
the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? [This shows you can't trust the psalm as being true.]

Additional References:
The full playlist for my anti-theism videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbQQ6MSP7kw&list=PL41A2FEA2CD25205D

Why Christians are often not encouraged to read the Bible:

http://www.episcopalcafe.com/encourage_people_to_read_the_bible_maybe_not/

Atheists and agnostics know the Bible better than most Christians:
http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey/

Contradictions in the Bible:

https://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html
http://www.answering-christianity.com/101_bible_contradictions.htm

Free will may be an illusion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DtVHhC_fws
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/story/2012-01-01/free-will-science-religion/
52317624/1
http://currenteventsii.yuku.com/topic/21231/The-battle-for-the-basis-of-reality#.UfrzNY3VB8E
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 81

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110831/full/477023a.html
http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-decide
http://www.cmu.edu/news/stories/archives/2013/february/feb13_unconsciousthought.html
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/04/mind_decision
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will

Number of religions in the world:

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Children dying of disease and starvation:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22935692

Are dead babies saved?:

http://www.gotquestions.org/age-of-accountability.html

Narcissistic sociopaths:
http://truthlover5.com/2012/12/07/profile-of-a-sociopath-charming-manipulative-grandiose-lying-narcissitic-
authoritarian-secretive/
http://listverse.com/2011/11/14/10-monumental-malignantly-narcissistic-sociopaths/

Religious fallacies:
http://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/ENGL1311/fallacies.htm
http://www.examiner.com/article/classic-religious-fallacies
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax27g5ZKa-w&list=PL41A2FEA2CD25205D&index=16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OriymDihU3w&list=PL41A2FEA2CD25205D&index=17
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMMMVKUhLxM&list=PL41A2FEA2CD25205D&index=18

Absurd Bible stories:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tippling/2018/03/03/exodus-debunked-ridiculous-story-ridiculous-claims/
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
https://ncse.com/cej/4/1/impossible-voyage-noahs-ark

The pointlessness of "testimonial evidence":

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rolltodisbelieve/2017/10/12/testimonies-dont-work-christians-cant-quit-
them/

Naturalistic explanations for the universe and nature:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html
http://www.livescience.com/25338-multiple-universes-5-theories.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3307757/Parallel-universe-proof-boosts-time-travel-
hopes.html
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100409-black-holes-alternate-universe-multiverse-
einstein-wormholes/
http://www.npr.org/2011/01/24/132932268/a-physicist-explains-why-parallel-universes-may-exist
http://www.amazon.com/Grand-Design-Stephen-Hawking/dp/0553805371
http://www.livescience.com/48806-parallel-worlds-quantum-mechanics-theory.html?cmpid=558618
 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 82

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaverse
http://www.technologyreview.com/view/419827/why-our-universe-must-have-been-born-inside-a-black-
hole/
http://www.space.com/21335-black-holes-time-universe-creation.html
http://scienceblogs.com/evolutionblog/2011/07/metaverses.php
http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Cosmo/FineTune.pdf#search=%22Fine%20tuned%20universe
%22
http://atheism.about.com/b/2010/03/11/intelligent-design-varying-the-constants-of-the-universe.htm
http://arizonaatheist.blogspot.com/2010/05/william-lane-craigs-arguments-for-god.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_Universe
http://www.braungardt.com/Physics/Vacuum%20Fluctuation.htm
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/quentin_smith/uncaused.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nagL4AWh-ng
http://arizonaatheist.blogspot.com/2010/05/william-lane-craigs-arguments-for-god.html
http://news.yahoo.com/big-bang-deflated-universe-may-had-no-beginning-140017504.html?
soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0370269314009381
http://www.simulation-argument.com/matrix.html

List of evidence for evolution over creationism:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html
http://introducedrat.com/evolution.htm

Scientist polled on evolution vs. creationism:

http://www.people-press.org/2009/07/09/section-5-evolution-climate-change-and-other-issues/

Religiosity and intelligence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

Atheists and atheistic nations are better off:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/08/09/these-are-the-10-most-atheistic-and-religious-countries/
http://pitweb.pitzer.edu/academics/wp-content/uploads/sites/38/2014/12/FAC-Zuckerman-Sociology-
Compass.pdf
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3403000143.html
http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/
http://theatheistconservative.com/tag/poor-and-uneducated-are-the-most-religious/
http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/02/18/poorest-countries-are-the-most-religious/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/01/30/top-10-mostleast-religious-states-in-the-country/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mpajRboXUo (theism and violence)

Atheists are underrepresented in prison populations:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-prisoners-less-likely-to-be-atheists/

Creationists required to ignore scientific evidence:

https://answersingenesis.org/about/faith/

Science test scores:

 Underlings YouTube Channel Debate Notes / Page 83

http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-rankings-2013-12