Isvara

Prabhupāda: You have heard about our

philosophy? You have heard about our philosophy?
Guest (1) (Indian man): Whatever I have read,
but, you see, I don't believe what I have read. I
believe only whatever I have talked to you, whatever
you have said.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is another thing. But
still, what is your conception of our philosophy?
What is that teaching?
Guest (1): Whose? My?
Prabhupāda: No, as we are?
Guest (1): No, I have understood what I have
heard from you, what is your conception of God, I
have not understood.
Prabhupāda: Our conception of God is that He is
a transcendental
person. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-
vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Īśvara means Lord. The
Supreme Lord is a person. As you are person, He is
also person, but He is the chief person. Nityo
nityānāṁ. He is the leader, and we are all led. Or He
is the master; we are the servitors. That is our self-
realization, to understand that "I am eternal servant
of God." In Bhagavad-gītā it is
said, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ jīva-
loke sanātanaḥ: [Bg. 15.7] "Eternally all the living
entities are My part and parcels." So as the part and
parcel of anything is to serve the cause of the whole,
similarly, all living entities, their only business is to
serve the Supreme. That is all.
Guest (1): Swamiji, I have understood that
the...(indistinct)... if Gītā is written afterwards
by Sanjaya, then...
Prabhupāda: Then what?
Guest (1): Then just to prove... (indistinct)
According to me, when Lord Kṛṣṇa... (indistinct)
When the ātmā goes into the trance, the mind goes
into the trance, and into the śuddha-sattva, then he
gets the vision of all, past, future, and present.
Prabhupāda: First thing that you said,
that Bhagavad-gītā was given in seven verses, and
later on, Vyāsadeva has expanded. Now, suppose
accepting that Vyāsadeva has expanded, do you find
any difference between Vyāsadeva's explanation and
the original seven verses?
Guest (1): No. Of course, that is... (unintelligible)
Prabhupāda: Then, accepting even that Vyāsadeva
has expanded, so there is no difference. Therefore,
even if we take the Bhagavad-gītā as it is presented
by Vyāsadeva, so there is nothing to be said against
it.
Guest (1): Nothing.
Prabhupāda: Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he
gave us only eight verses, Śikṣāṣṭaka. But our
Gosvāmīs, they have written volumes of books on
that eight verses. But there is no difference of the
writings of the Gosvāmīs and the original eight
verses. That is not very important thing.
Guest (1): One more, sir. Lord Kṛṣṇa has never
asked Arjuna to sit and do bhajana. He
said, uttiṣṭha mām anusmara yuddhya:
[Bg. 8.7] "Get up and fight! And fight! And fight!
That fight, that is your right." I'll fight. That is...
Prabhupāda: Yes. So fight with whom?
Guest (1): "Fight with your enemy."
Prabhupāda: Who is your enemy?
Guest (1): Even physical, bodily, whatever it is,
whatever it is, but you must know who your enemies
are. Your enemy may be my friend. (part indistinct)
Prabhupāda: That's nice proposal. Unless you
find an enemy, how you can fight? So of course, we
do not say... We Vaiṣṇavas do not say that there is
no need of fighting. We never say. When there is
need of fighting we must fight. Rather, somebody in
New York, some Goldsmith, he was that,
"Why Kṛṣṇa is advising Arjuna to fight, to become
violent?" So somebody protests like that. But there
is no meaning of protesting against the action of the
Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is our view.
So we Vaiṣṇavas, we are chanting. It does not mean
that when there is need of fighting
with avaiṣṇava we shall lack in strength. We can
fight. One gentleman inquired from me that
"Vaiṣṇavism makes one dull. He cannot act." And,
"No. You have not seen a Vaiṣṇava." In the two
fightings, great fighting,
the Rāmāyaṇa and Mahābhārata, the hero
was Hanuman and Arjuna, and they fought.
Guest (1): They fought.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And who can be
better Vaiṣṇava than them?
Guest (1): Nobody.
Prabhupāda: So Vaiṣṇava does not mean he is
dull. No.
Guest (1): No, that is well proved. If there is need...
Prabhupāda: Yes. So our present fighting is
atheism, against atheism. They say, "There is no
God. God is dead. I am God. You are God." We are
fighting against these principles. So our fighting is
very strong. You don't think that we are keeping
idly. I have come here to fight with these atheists,
you see, and we go everywhere. We are fighting with
atheists all over the world. So we are meeting so
many opposing elements. You see? They say, "God
is dead." In America, when I first went, they were
popularizing theory that "God is dead." But they
again accepted and: God is not dead, but He is here
with Swamiji." They accepted. So these atheistic
theories, that "Everyone is God," "I am God," "you
are God," "God is dead," "there is no God," "God is
not person"—we are fighting against these
principles. We say, "God is Kṛṣṇa. The Supreme
Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa. He is a person, and
He is not dead." This is our preaching. Therefore it
is a fight.
Guest (1): He is not dead. He is not dead.
Prabhupāda: How He can be dead? How you can
think of like that, that God is dead? That is
foolishness.
Guest (1): If you say God is dead, that means you
are... that is your own ignorance.
Prabhupāda: So we are fighting against this
ignorance, so many ignorance. And at the present
moment so many theories and religious principles
have sprung up unnecessarily. You see? But we are
sticking to the principle that the only religion is to
surrender unto the Supreme Personality of
Godhead. That is real religion: surrender.
Guest (1): Complete surrender.
Prabhupāda: Complete surrender. That is real
religion. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-
dharmān parityjya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja.
Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-
yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. These are Kṛṣṇa's
words. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ pr
apadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Prapadyate—that is
surrender. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs
tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. These words are
there.
Guest (1): I like only the last ślokas... (indistinct)...
where Lord Kṛṣṇa analyzes and... (indistinct) ...but
to bring your mind and ātmā together that process
is called yoga.
Prabhupāda: But you know
that Kṛṣṇa said, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-
gatenāntarātmanā: [Bg. 6.47] "Of all the yogis, one
who is always thinking of Me within his mind, he is
first-class." Do you accept this?
Guest (1): Of all the yoginām?
Prabhupāda: Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ: "Of all the
yogis..." Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ. That is the last
verse of the yoga chapter, sāṅkhya-
yoga chapter. Yoginām... When Arjuna said that
"This practice of aṣṭāṅga-yoga is not possible for
me."
Guest (1): No, of course not.
Prabhupāda: No, he said. When he said like that,
so Kṛṣṇa answered, "Yes, practice. If you practice, it
can be possible. But still, anyone..." He summarized
the whole yoga process, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ: "Of
all yogis, anyone who is thinking of Me always, he is
the first-class yogi."
Guest (1): That is karma-yoga.
Prabhupāda: Why do you say karma-
yoga? Where you get this?
Guest (1): "Whatever you do." "Whatever you do."
It is not written that you should do the aṣṭāṅga-
yoga.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. We are discussing this
verse. He said that "Anyone who is always
think..." Karma-yogi also always thinks of Kṛṣṇa.
That's all right. That is not denied. But the highest
principle is always keeping Kṛṣṇa within his
mind. Premāñjana-cchurita... That is confirmed in
the Brahma-saṁhitā. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-
vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [B
s. 5.38]. This kind of practice of yoga can be done by
an unalloyed devotee. Premāñjana-cchurita, by
developing the dormant love of God. That is... That
is the highest perfection. And another thing is, you
are accepting mind as ātmā, are you not? That's not
correct. Mind is not ātmā.
Guest (1): No, no, mind is not ātmā. No.
The ātmā and mind, they come together, each other
come. When your mind does not go from here to
there...
Prabhupāda: Yes, mind fixed up in ātmā. That's
nice. But mind is not ātmā.
Guest (1): No, no.
Prabhupāda: Mind is matter, subtle matter.
Guest (1): Certainly. That is the laws.
Prabhupāda: Mind is kind of fume of the ātmā. So
mind becomes, changes the color of the fume
according to the state of the ātmā. If the ātmā is in
pure state, then mind is pure. If the ātmā is impure
state, the mind is impure. So we have taught all our
disciples, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ [Bg. 9.14], alway
s
chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ [Bg.
9.14].
Guest (1): Satataṁ kīrtayanto yo māṁ...
Prabhupāda: No. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatan
taś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. Dṛḍha-vratāḥ: "One
who is always chanting about Me and endeavoring
with great determination to reach Me, he
is mahātmā."
Guest (1): As you have said, nāhaṁ
tiṣṭhāmi vaikuṇṭhe yogināṁ hṛdayeṣu vā mad-
bhakteṣ...
Prabhupāda: Tiṣṭhāmi. That's it. Therefore a
devotee's position is sublime. Kṛṣṇa comes as a
devotee also. Actually this
happened. Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he happened to be a
Mohammedan, Lord Caitanya's devotee. So in those
days, five hundred years ago, there was
some Hindu-Muslim... Still that is going on. So he
did not enter Jagannātha temple to create some
disturbance. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also did not ask
him that "You go to Jagannātha temple. Who can
check you?" Of course, if Caitanya Mahāprabhu had
ordered, he would have gone. Neither he wanted to
go, neither Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "You
must go." Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to come to
him. Tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyanti mad-
bhaktāḥ. This is the practical. He came to the
devotee where he was chanting. So instead of
approaching God, if you chant, God will approach
you. That is a fact, we see. Instead
of Haridāsa Ṭhākura going
to Jagannātha, Jagannātha Himself was coming to
him. Every day Lord Caitanya would come and ask
and sit down, "How you are feeling? What you are
doing?" Then He would go to take bath
in Samudra. Daily. It was Caitanya Mahāprabhu's...
And when Haridāsa Ṭhākura expired, He personally
took the body and cremated on the bank of
the Samudra and he performed the funeral
ceremony. Haridāsa Ṭhākura was so... And he was
given the title nāmācārya, "authority of
chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra." Very nice that you
are cultivating this knowledge. It is very
nice. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhay
e [Bg. 7.3]. This cultivation of spiritual knowledge
means perfection of life. But people do not try for it.
Therefore Gītā says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu: "Out
of many thousands of men, one may try to cultivate
knowledge for spiritual advancement."
And yatatām api siddhānāṁ: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of
many such persons who are cultivating spiritual
knowledge, hardly one can understand what
is Kṛṣṇa."
Guest (1): Very correct. To understand Him is a
lot.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is
liberation. Janma karma me divyam yo janati tattv
ataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. To understand Kṛṣṇa... Nobody can
understand Kṛṣṇa, but still, to such an extent, if one
can understand Him, then he immediately becomes
liberated. Immediately. And not to speak of
developing his love of Kṛṣṇa, simply by knowledge,
by real knowledge, if one understands Kṛṣṇa, that is
sufficient to make him liberated. And those who are
devotees, for them liberation is very
insignificant. Muktir mukulitāñjaliḥ sevate 'sman.
Guest (1): On the first day of this inauguration,
and there were definitions about karma-yoga.
Prabhupāda: Oh, the governor. (laughter) Just
see. He is speaking of karma-yoga. Slaughtering ten
thousand cows, that is karma-yoga. This nonsense
speaking of karma-yoga.
Guest (1): So actually I shall present...
Prabhupāda: The governor became little
perturbed. He wanted to go immediately. You were
present? And when the other men began to speak all
hodgepodge...
Guest (1): I like your one sentence that day.
Whatever is according to the śāstras, that is correct.
I agree to it. Nobody says that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact.
Guest (1): That's a fact.
Prabhupāda: Karma done does not mean that you
manufacture something and it becomes a karma.
Guest (1): It is written, whatever, in śāstras.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): That is karma-yoga.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I was just going to explain all
this karma, vikarma, akarma.
Guest (1): What does he know? (laughs)
Prabhupāda: In India, the land of sages, land
of Kṛṣṇa, land of Lord Rāmacandra, land
of Mahārāja Parīkṣit, without any restriction cow
slaughter is going on. And they are speaking
of karma-yoga. Just see the fun.
Guest (1): I don't know where this India is going
to, the land of Kṛṣṇa is going to.
Prabhupāda: Well... No, we should try our best.
Guest (1): We have to fight these habits. It is our
duty.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. So you are a military
man. I request you to fight against this nonsense.
Guest (1): Swami, I wish you could come
sometime. I will gather section of some people.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll go. I'll go. Where? Just fix
up some time.
Guest (1): Because I am very near to temple, only
100 yards.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That Takat? (?)
Takat?
Guest (1): No, not Takat.
Prabhupāda: Oh, I see, oh. We are thinking of
having a branch near that Takat, in that Takat
colony. What is your idea? Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness
center. Is that a good locality?
Guest (1): I'll tell you. I'll fight Tukori(?).
(indistinct)...
Prabhupāda: All right. No, no. Think twice before
doing.
Haṁsadūta: Tuesday morning, December 15th?
Guest (1): Tuesday morning? Morning, I have to
go to a village somewhere.
Prabhupāda: You give them after seven.
Guest (1): Ah, no, whenever opportunity.
Prabhupāda: All right, then make...
Haṁsadūta: Evenings are all engaged.
Prabhupāda: Oh, evenings are... But evenings up
to which date? Tuesday?
Guest (1): Up to the sixteenth.
Prabhupāda: Up to the sixteenth? Then probably
on the seventeenth we may go. Not fixed up, but
there is chance. That is chance because we are
thinking of an appointment with the prime minister
in Delhi by the eighteenth, so if that is fixed up, then
we have to start.
Guest (1): (discusses date for engagement with
Haṁsadūta)
Prabhupāda: Is there any engagement, for...?
Haṁsadūta: Yes.
Prabhupāda: When?
Haṁsadūta: (discusses date for engagement with
1)
Yamunā: Fifteenth is the appearance day of His
Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī.
Prabhupāda: Fifteenth is the appearance date? ?
Oh, then we have to perform.
Haṁsadūta: What are we supposed to do? Fast?
Prabhupāda: We shall fast up till twelve and then
offer puṣpāñjali and then chant, as far as we can
supply.
Guest (1): So Tuesday afternoon from three to
four.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You write his name.
Haṁsadūta: May I have your name?
Guest (1): Major Ghun N. Susuy(?)
Prabhupāda: You are Maharastrian.
Guest (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Maharastrians, they are fighting
nation.
Haṁsadūta: Telephone?
Prabhupāda: Telephone? Telephone?
Guest (1): Telephone, no, I haven't got.
Prabhupāda: Maharastrian spirit and Bengali
spirit, almost...
Guest (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): (Hindi?) (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. These boys also, from their
childhood they are addicted to so many things. Gave
up immediately.
Guest (1): That's nice.
Prabhupāda: Immediately on my word they gave
up. Meat-eaters, they have been described by
Canakya Pandit.
Guest (1): Though we are kṣatriyas, but nobody
takes meat in our house.
Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas are allowed to take meat
by hunting, not by slaughterhouse. Not all, but some
of them.
Guest (1): When you can't get anything to eat, then
only you can do that. (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...not in
my sannyāsa stage. Long ago
accepted sannyāsa. Sometimes in 1945.
Guest (1): Are you going there now this month?
Prabhupāda: No, I can go everywhere if the
arrangement... Aiye.
Guest (1): (Hindi discussion with other Indians)
Yamunā: Janaka Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: Canakya, Canakya Pandit. He was a
great politician and brāhmaṇa.
Yamunā: Was he in Lord Caitanya's time?
Prabhupāda: No, no. He was five thousand
years..., not. Three thousand years.
Haṁsadūta: He was a great devotee?
Devotee: No.
Haṁsadūta: No?
Guest (1): He was politician. He was a
mathematician.
Prabhupāda: He was very learned
scholar, brāhmaṇa, rigid brāhmaṇa. That's all.
Guest (1): He was insulted once in boyhood by
something of Mahātmānanda.
Prabhupāda: Nanda.
Guest (1): Then he took oath that "All right, today I
turn my (indistinct) and one day I will dethrone you
from here. Then you can call me (indistinct)," and
he went away. (tells story)
Haṁsadūta: Great determination.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yamunā: He was a great devotee?
Prabhupāda: No.
Yamunā: So he's not authority.
Prabhupāda: No, no, he was not authority in the
spiritual sense. He was a politician, moralist,
politician. That's all. Worldly man.
Haṁsadūta: How many people will be there?
Guest (1): Swamiji, you were telling something?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I don't find...
[break] ...vanaṁ sattvaṁ na durjante, sattva vasan
ti, tad eva ca durjanas tu pade pade. This is
another verse.
Guest (1): (Sanskrit)
Prabhupāda: So we made some life member. Is
there any possibility of getting, enrolling some life
member? That...?
Guest (1): Life member means...?
Prabhupāda: Institution. We want some life
members. Otherwise how we can conduct this
institution? (indistinct) Through telegram? Or
reply?
Haṁsadūta: I think it was returned.
Prabhupāda: Who sent?
Haṁsadūta: Gita Bhavan Sect.(?), Gita Bhavan Ma
rg, Indore. "Please reply definite arrival time, Surat.
Very anxious. Janwal, care of (indistinct)." That's
how he replied.
Prabhupāda: So there we are already engaged.
Cannot go Surat immediately. Let us follow that.
Haṁsadūta: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is his version. Version.
There is no cost. Simply (indistinct).
Haṁsadūta: So what is the program there?
Prabhupāda: Never mind. "Due to heavy
engagement, cannot go Surat immediately. Letter
follows."
Devotee (2): Motorcycle...(indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Are you sure, that motorcycle? Can?
To go and come back here for attending meeting
here? By train? How far it is?
Haṁsadūta: About fifteen minutes.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. That's all.
Haṁsadūta: No, no, we won't take
any prasādam today.(?) We are fasting till noon
because it is the appearance day of
our Guru Mahārāja's spiritual master.
Yamunā: Disappearance.
Haṁsadūta: Disappearance? Oh. We won't be
taking anything at all. Nothing.
Prabhupāda: Up to twelve we don't take. Fast.
Guest (1): (indistinct) ...in my house?
Prabhupāda: Whatever arrangement you do,
that's all right. But if some of you members become
our life members, that will be...
Haṁsadūta: Have you seen our books? Would you
like to see?
Prabhupāda: So you can explain. [break] ...the
footprints of liberated predecessors like Manu and
others. So they are conditioned. Therefore their
rules and regulations are not perfect. It cannot be
perfect.
Haṁsadūta: Here is our monthly magazine, Back
to Godhead. These are our... (indistinct) This is in
Washington, D.C. This is in Berkeley, California.
That magazine is being printed in six languages:
Hindi, English, French, German, and Japanese, and
Bengali. Bengali is not yet out, but it's coming. Then
Prabhupāda started presenting these books while he
was still in India. This book was published in 1965.
This was printed in India, the First Canto of
the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The First Canto
comprises three volumes like this, the First Canto.
And then the following Cantos are being printed by
our own press in America in Boston, like this,
chapter by chapter, so that people can take
advantage of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and read it at
their convenience instead of...
Guest (1): (indistinct)
Haṁsadūta: And here, Kṛṣṇa Book, is the Tenth
Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda calls
it, "Kṛṣṇa: The Supreme Personality of
Godhead." And it's full of illustrations which are
done by his American students. Just see how
beautiful. There are eighty-four full color
illustrations that show the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa. So the
people in the western world and for the first time in
the history of the world will get an idea of who God
is, what He looks like, what He does, where He's
residing. This is the Kṛṣṇa Book, in two volumes.
This is volume number one and this is volume
number two. This is just a blueprint. We haven't got
a printed copy yet. Then Teachings of
Lord Caitanya, Caitanya-caritāmṛta, which you
must be familiar with, in the Teachings of
Lord Caitanya and there are also illustrations
although they're not color. They're black and white.
Guest (1): Śrī Tukārāma is disciple of Caitanya.
Prabhupāda: He also went through in Maharastra
by His chanting, (indistinct)
Haṁsadūta: And most important, Prabhupāda has
presented Bhagavad-gītā. He calls it "Bhagavad-
gītā As It Is." He explains in the introduction that
till now there's been so many Bhagavad-
gitas printed in all languages and all of them are
misrepresenting. They have not
presented Bhagavad-gītā as it is. They are trying to
present Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa. They want to
leave out the speaker of Bhagavad-gītā and put
themselves forward. So Prabhupāda has
presented Bhagavad-gītā As It Is and therefore this
movement has taken such hold because the real
thing is being presented. This is in San Francisco,
California. Then, the Nectar of
Devotion, Rūpa Gosvāmī's book Bhakti-rasāmṛta-
sindhu, also there. This book is the lawbook of
devotional service. Īśopaniṣad, word for word
translation, then the complete English translation
and purport by His Divine Grace. So these books are
(indistinct) bhakti-
yoga (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa consciousness (indistinct)
explaining the chanting of
the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So we have so much
literature. And in India we've introduced a program,
our membership program, so that we can go on
distributing these literatures. And that membership
program, there are four types of membership. One
is life membership. Life membership means the
member is entitled to all the books that we have
printed plus all the books we will print in the future,
plus a lifetime subscription to our magazine, Back
to Godhead. And the member is entitled to stay at
any one of our branches throughout the world free
and if he happens to travel abroad or in India. We
will have our branches. So that life membership fee
is 1,111 rupees. And then we have donor
membership. The donor member is entitled to all
the books that have been printed, a lifetime
subscription to our magazine, but he does not get
the books in the future. That is 555 rupees. And
subscriber membership, lifetime subscription to our
magazine, which is 222 rupees. Or there is
membership, yearly subscription to our magazine.
In this way we're trying to recruit members that
support our movement. This movement is being
supported just by literature. So in this way we can
flood the whole world with Kṛṣṇa consciousness and
then there'll be a change. If we want to see a change
in the world, then we have to distribute knowledge
of Kṛṣṇa in this way. You are welcome to become a
member. And also your friends. Tell them about our
membership programs.
Guest (1): Swamiji, open a center here.
Prabhupāda: I wish to. I wish to open a center.
Guest (1): No, no, now?
Prabhupāda: Not yet.
Guest (1): And how many centers in India?
Prabhupāda: Practically, three.
Guest (1): Swami, did you come across
these Brahma-kumaris? They preach something
else.
Prabhupāda: That is something else. Everyone
knows it.
Guest (1): Once they... I was in ... So they were
passing through, teaching some Kṛṣṇa or something,
and their Bhagavad-gita was something else.
Prabhupāda: That is going on. [break] There may
be musical performance but here it is by the pure
devotees. That is different thing. Now, here don't
you see in the Gītā Bhavan? When others
perform kīrtana nobody takes part. And they cannot
continue that kīrtana more than five minutes. But
we can continue our kīrtana for five hours without
any...
Haṁsadūta: If we stayed there for five hours
everyone would chant. (indistinct conversation)
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, mahāmantra they can also
do, but it will not be effective because they are not
pure. Here is the secret. We have... Our devotees,
they are anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ [Brs. 1.1.11], they
have no other business than to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. They
perform kīrtana to take something from Kṛṣṇa.
Everyone goes to some dharma-saṁsthāna just to
take something. But our proposition is to give
everything for Kṛṣṇa and that is far different.
Haṁsadūta: Everyone is pleased with the
devotees, everybody.
Guest (2) (Indian man): (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: That when you do, I shall tell you.
Now why do you waste your time in that way? That's
all right, you are not doing so you have no business.
Guest (2): (indistinct) Of course, I am not doing...
(indistinct, several people talking at once.)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) This is called vṛddha. This is
called yoni. This is madhyama. This
is anāvṛtta, and this is kaniṣṭha. (indistinct
conversation) Stores are now closed?
Haṁsadūta: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. So he has gone to Calcutta.
[break] Utsāhan, dhairyāt. Are you realizing the
distinction between this association and others?
Revatīnandana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That you should realize. That is
realization. We are trying to create a real spiritual
path, not bogus, for livelihood. India's falldown is
due to that spirit, that everyone takes everything for
livelihood, that's all. Not only India, everywhere.
India especially because poverty-stricken. So they
take religion also as livelihood. Just like
this Akhila Saheb. He wanted to
chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra for livelihood. Do you
know that?
Devotee (3): Yes.
Prabhupāda: How? How it was? No, you do not
know. He was proposing that "I know how to cure
disease by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." So he wanted to go
to foreign countries to take this profession. That
means an attempt to kill our movement in purity. Of
course, nobody can kill our movement, but this sort
of thinking is just against the purity of our
movement: utilize Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra for curing
disease. Oh, it will not stay.
Haṁsadūta: No. If we put it on the window it will
stay. It won't stay on the wall.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Haṁsadūta: If he puts it on the window it will
stay.
Prabhupāda: Window means it will be dark.
Haṁsadūta: Yes. I think that (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. It has to be done. Not only idea,
it has to be done in practical sense. Now who will
take charge of this task? That is to be found out. You
write to the...
Haṁsadūta: GBC?
Prabhupāda: GBC.
Haṁsadūta: (unintelligible) So many newspapers
have come out within the last three or four years. Of
course, most of them are hippie groups, but they
have become... People are very anxious to read
something from different angle of vision.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: They are tired of old newspapers. So
if we present a newspaper with our angle of
vision, Kṛṣṇa consciousness...
Prabhupāda: So immediately you write to the
GBC members.
Haṁsadūta: But the articles that will be in the
newspaper, they will be exactly like other
newspapers? Who will write them?
Prabhupāda: No, articles... Daily newspaper
means there must be news. News you can purchase
from the news collecting company. They will supply
it. At very cheap price they'll supply. And you take
advertisement. Yes. You'll cover your expenses by
getting advertisements and make sufficient profit.
Newspaper starting is not a losing business
provided you can organize. Just like ordinary
newspaper, they give... In daily news... People want
to learn daily news, and they supply huge quantity.
And those who are advertiser, they are simply
concerned how many copies are issued. If you issue
100,000's of copies, then you can charge for each
page thousand dollars. They will pay. Two thousand
dollars they will pay.
Haṁsadūta: That means in each city we would we
have to have our own local press.
Prabhupāda: No, not necessarily. You can arrange
with any newspaper place. You simply supply your
matter; they will print. Just like we are getting
from Japan, similarly, make your own layout and
supply them. Immediately, within two hours,
everything is complete.
Haṁsadūta: But a daily newspaper has to turn out
daily, so it takes time to transport it from one city to
another city.
Prabhupāda: Well, from every city we can publish.
Every city there is a newspaper place.
Devotee (4): ...national, just like the national...
Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have to organize. First of
all let us publish in one city, big city like New York,
like London, yes, Bombay, Tokyo. Big cities, world's
big cities. In India only two cities are big: Calcutta,
and Bombay, important. If you publish
simultaneously, Calcutta... Delhi is given
importance due to capital; otherwise not important
as big city, as Bombay and Calcutta. Delhi, without
government offices it is a dead city. Just like
Washington. What is the value of Washington? It is
nothing. Simply because it is headquarters of the
President, it has got importance. Similarly, Delhi is
that. Otherwise it is not important. But Calcutta,
Bombay, is really important city in India, big
business, port, all rich men, every kind of, all
cultural, everything—Calcutta, and Bombay.
Originally only Calcutta, now Bombay also. Because
the Britishers, they made Calcutta capital. And
Calcutta was very, very important city. But these
Calcutta men, they create sometimes situation, very
complicated. So once in 1905 the same situation was
there, politically. Sir Surendranath Bannerjee made,
Surendranath Bannerjee's movement, partition of
Bengal. Lord Collier, he wanted to divide Bengal,
made it East Bengal and West Bengal. And
Surendranath Bannerjee... He is the practically
father of Indian politics. Gandhi's not. He was. He
was. And in the beginning, in European circles he
was famous. He was called "Surrender-not." The
spelling of the name, s-u-r-e-n-d-e-r, Surendranath.
In Parliament he was known as "Surrender-not." He
was a very powerful politician. So there was trouble
in Calcutta; so therefore they transferred, 1911,
capital to Delhi. Otherwise, from the very beginning
of British occupation Calcutta was the capital. You
have seen the government viceroy's house near that
Hamilton building where you were trying to
purchase.
Haṁsadūta: The government house?
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. It is better than Buckingham
Palace, such a big house.
Haṁsadūta: Oh, the governor's house. The
governor's house?
Prabhupāda: Yes, governor's house.
Haṁsadūta: It's surrounded just like a...
Prabhupāda: A big garden. Yes. That was viceroy's
house. Now it is dilapidated. Otherwise, formerly it
was very, very nice. Huge palace in India. Lord
Collier's policy was to bring one of the princes from
England and make him king of India.
Haṁsadūta: King of India.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That was his policy. He favored
that policy, that Indian people are in favor of
monarchy. So introduce this system: one of the
royal family's son should come and become king of
India. That was good suggestion. If Britishers would
have ruled India for the interest of India, making
one king from the royal family, it would have been
great success. That policy of Lord Collier was very
nice.
Haṁsadūta: That never happened.
Prabhupāda: The same thing. The parliamentary
members... Just like nowadays, party. India is
suffering in party politics. And they did not like to
give importance to monarchy. They wanted to rule
according to their whims, and therefore the whole
scheme failed. The so-called democracy under party
politics is nonsense. Monarchy... I have said. That
day I was in remarking that "This democracy is the
government of the asses," because the population
are asses and they vote another ass to be head of the
government. So what you can
do? Sayuddhe kriyate rājan sa kim asnu
pahanam. These are instructions in Sanskrit. "If you
make a dog a king, don't you think that he will still
lap the shoes?" You cannot change his
habits. Sva... Yasya bhāvasya na sa sudurate kram
aḥ. Anyone's habits, even if you give good position,
you cannot change it. The example is just like if you
make a dog the king, he will immediately come from
the throne and bite the shoes. You see? So
materially you cannot change. Only by spiritual
understanding one can be...
Haṁsadūta: Canakya Pandit... I have see that
book, and he says in his book that if a crow sits on a
high (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you make a crow... The crow
generally sits on the roof of the house, but that does
not mean he has become a great man. "How great I
am, a very beautiful bird."
Revatīnandana: The symbol of the Democrat
party in America is the ass.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere. As soon as you...
Revatīnandana: Their symbol is an ass. They have
a symbol.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Because they are asses.
Revatīnandana: The Republican party is elephant
and the Democratic party is ass, a donkey.
Prabhupāda: What is the value of vote by asses?
According to Vedic civilization, there was
democracy but that democracy is selected
committee. Just like in England there was Privy
Council. So selected body of learned brāhmaṇas and
sages, they were guiding the king, and the king
himself was properly educated how to rule over,
under religious principles. He was trained from the
beginning of his life as prince. As the future heir of
the throne, he was trained, and at the same time, he
was guided by a council of learned sages
and brāhmaṇas. They were looking over the
activities of the king. As soon as there was some
mistake they will see. And there are instances;
whenever there was a bad king they were dethroned.
Not for political purpose. He was dethroned but his
son was on the... Just like
Lord Rāmacandra did. Rāmacandra killed Rāvaṇa b
ut He never occupied the kingdom. His
brother Vibhīṣaṇa proved to be faithful. He was
enthroned. From the same family. And that was the
system. Even a king was wrong, he would be
dethroned but from his family, either his son or
brother, or somebody would occupy there. Not that
"Because I have conquered you, therefore I shall sit
down." No. There are many instances. And therefore
India was ruling all over the world. The emperor
was in India, and the kings of different states, their
family was. So there was no rebellion. And in every
state a king was trained in the same process, guided
by committee of learned brāhmaṇa and sages. How
perfect this monarchy is. Monarchy... That Lord
Collier studied that the Indian people like
monarchy. Even these states, the so-called states...
Now the Congress government has killed them;
otherwise the Britishers were maintaining,
necessary, and they were developed. Now see. The
Indore was far better before. You can see from the
buildings, from the whole city. It was very
prosperous city. Still it is going on. So every state,
the native prince, the Britishers maintained so many
native prince. And because they maintained them,
they were friends to the Britishers. They knew the
policy, if you create zamindar, landlord. They
created this aristocratic class to support them. So
when Gandhi and other leaders started this
movement all the princes and zamindars, they were
in favor of British. Therefore it took so much time to
transfer. And as a retaliation, the common people
have bereft them of their kingdom. "No more
kingdom because you always supported Britishers."
It is a great politics. Therfore they have taken...
The zamindars, immediately after this attainment
of independence, all the zamindars and kings were
bereft of their possessions. You were in Calcutta?
Oh, none of you were with me. We saw one house
for purchasing. That was a big zamindar's house,
Tagore Thakur(?) You saw? Yes. If you have saw...
How nicely it was. When they were in opulence in
our childhood, oh, it was a house to be seen. There
are many houses. Just like in England the lord
families. In Ascot, where we stayed, that was also
lord family's house. Now Yoko's house, a third-class
Japanese girl. She has become the queen of the
house. And how third-class, low-grade. It is the
sitting room and a naked picture has... How much
degraded people have become. How this man is
daring to hang that picture in his sitting room so
that everyone who comes sees. How much low-
graded they are. They want change, but because
they have no (indistinct) education they are going to
the animal sphere. That is hippie movement. Yes.
From animal standard they become civilized. The
same story, punar muṣika bhāvaḥ. You know that
story? "Again become mouse."
Haṁsadūta: Oh yeah, I've heard that.
Prabhupāda: The story is a mouse came to a
saintly person: "Sir, I am in trouble. If you kindly
release me?" "What is that trouble?" "A cat, they are
after me. I am always at risk of life." "So what do
you want?" "You also make me a cat." "All right. You
become a cat." Then again he came. "Sir, again the
complaint is here." "What is that?" "Dogs are
chasing me." "Then what do you want?" "I want to
become a dog." "All right. You become a dog." In
this way he came up to the tiger by the benediction
of the... And when he became a tiger, he was...
(snarling sound-laughter) Just like
our Brahmānanda Prabhu. "All right. Again become
mouse." You see? So these civilization is like that.
They became tiger, and they are so much badly
trained up that they have to become again a mouse.
That is the way. That is the way of nature. If you
don't improve yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then
you again become stool worms. The human form of
life is an opportunity to come out of the cycle of
birth and death, but if one does not take—these are
the statements in Padma Purāṇa—then he loses the
chance. They do not know what is life, how life is
rotating, talking nonsense, "I am God.
Why Kṛṣṇa should be God? This is written by man."
How much low-graded people have become. They
are completely under the laws of
nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duraty
ayā [Bg. 7.14], stringent laws of nature, and still,
they are claiming, "I am God. I am this. I am that. I
am free. I am..." And they do not mind, even they
are degraded to the position of the worm of stool.
But there is possibility. What is this worm of stool?
It is also living entity. It is not a different
thing. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. One who
knows, he knows that the worm of stool
and Brahmā are the same living entity. Simply
under different reaction of karma one has
become Brahmā and another has become the stool
worm. Now we begin. [break] It is not difficult.
Simply the layout should be sent to different parts,
and they will make immediately plate, and that will
be paper. Daily you have to send it. Eh?
Haṁsadūta: The best place to start is Boston.
Prabhupāda: Yes, already. Even in small scale we
can start from Boston.
Haṁsadūta: Just like one or two pages.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Never mind. Just like I began in
that way. You have seen the...
Haṁsadūta: Yes, I saw the original Back to
Godhead. A lot of your articles were commenting
about current events.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The editorial board must be
very intelligent how to talk about Back to
Godhead with current politics. Giriraja, you can do
that?
Giriraja: I could try.
Prabhupāda: Try. You just try it immediately. You
take one newspaper and comment on the current
news. Any one of you... Every one of you can do.
And show me how you have given. Then you start
immediately. We have got many things to do. We
have Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the bhoktāraṁ yajña-
tapasāṁ sarva-loka maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. What
these petty politicians and three acres of land? Their
stage is three acres of land; our stage is the
unlimited. That I have mentioned in the second
volume of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So what news they
can publish? Three acres of land. We have got the
innumerable universes. We can supply so much
news, provided people are ready to read it. We have
published so many books, they are not even able to
read these books. So the other devotees, (laughs)
they cannot ri..., come at five o'clock. That is the
test. Yes. One who cannot rise early in the morning,
he is not spiritually serious. That is test. Brāhma-
muhūrta, this hour, one hour before sunrise, is very
auspicious moment.
Haṁsadūta: I can tell everyone that wants a
program to come at five o'clock.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Haṁsadūta: If somebody wants a program, I can
say "Come and see me at five o'clock." Because after
they hear you and they have maṅgala-ārati, then
they will be more thoughtful about our...
Prabhupāda: Yes, tell them.
Haṁsadūta: I think that's a good idea.
Prabhupāda: You can say now, "If anyone wants
to see us, please come at five o'clock, early in the
morning." Then I shall see how much serious he is.
Now I have decided to go to Delhi. Even Gurudāsa
suggests rightly. All of us, we should go to Delhi.
Yamunā: It might be difficult to make
arrangements, Guru Mahārāja. The place where
Gurudāsa is presently staying is not equipped for
ten people at present. We'll have to arrange.
Prabhupāda: No, we can arrange in the Birla's
house. He has a nice dharmaśāla. You know Birla's
house?
Yamunā: Yes. We were invited to stay there for ten
days.
Prabhupāda: So that's all right. So, who invited?
Devotee (3): One of the people connected with the
temple has associated with us in Delhi and
(indistinct) has invited us.
Prabhupāda: So first of all take information from
the Pujari(?) in which train they have booked our
seats for Delhi, and you write immediately one letter
to Dhruva in Bombay and Tamal Kṛṣṇa also,
that Dhruva may instruct the Delhi
Birla's dharmaśāla to accommodate us
immediately. So their dharmaśāla. It is
Birla's dharmaśāla. First of all we have to see how
they have made our seats.
Revatīnandana: So the residential place belongs
to Mrs. Birla?
Prabhupāda: No, it is a temple, very big temple.
Haṁsadūta: So we should book seats for Delhi on
which day?
Prabhupāda: Seventeenth.
Haṁsadūta: Seventeenth you want to leave?
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the day, seventeenth?
Devotee (3): Today is the fourteenth.
Prabhupāda: No, day?
Haṁsadūta: Today is Monday.
Prabhupāda: Then?
Haṁsadūta: Seventeenth is Thursday.
Prabhupāda: Thursday?
Haṁsadūta: Thursday, seventeenth.
Prabhupāda: So Thursday, before afternoon, we
shall start.
Devotee (3): You want to go by plane
Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: No, I am asking one ticket for plane.
Devotee (3): You'll fly alone to Delhi?
Yamunā: The Delhi airport?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not difficulty. Ask
Gurudāsa to take me. For two hours I can sit down.
It goes direct to Delhi from here.
Devotee (3): No, it makes two stops.
Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter.
Devotee (3): But the same plane.
Prabhupāda: Same plane. And you come, all, by
train.
Haṁsadūta: Will we open a bank account here?
Will we open an account in Indore?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: This morning with Mr. Holi.
Yamunā: So when we find out your arrival time,
Gurudāsa, we can inform Gurudāsa when you'll be
arriving?
Prabhupāda: Yes. And then the next day you
come, all, by train. Thursday we can wa...? What is
that Thursday?
Haṁsadūta: Thursday
Prabhupāda: Oh, industrial house. Industrial
house.
Guest (2): It's called "Industry House."
Prabhupāda: Industry, that's all. Industry House.
Industry House Dhruva's full name, you know?
Devotee (3): R.C.
Prabhupāda: R.C. Dhruva, Secretary to Mr. R.D.
Birla, Industry House, Church Reclamation...
Haṁsadūta: Bombay, West.
Prabhupāda: Bombay.
Yamunā: Is Parliament in session again?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Yamunā: I was thinking that Parliament goes in
and out of session, and I wondered if they
remembered this if Parliament was in session again.
Giriraja: No.
Yamunā: No.
Prabhupāda: Parliament is in session now?
Yamunā: No. Out of session now. When it's in
session then all of the politicians come from their
castles and (indistinct) their most of the members of
Parliament (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: So when the Parliament begins?
Yamunā: It will be (indistinct) It separates for
about a month and then comes together.
Prabhupāda: Aiye. Aiye. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa...
Giriraja: Insofar as seeing the prime minister, this
is the best time because he is not so preoccupied.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is that picture? There
was picture you prepared.
Devotee (3): (indistinct) picture with a letter
(indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Oh. So... So how long you talked
with the Prime Minister?
Yamunā: Maybe ten minutes.
Prabhupāda: So she took some interest?
Yamunā: She took a courteous interest. As I say,
there was no doubt that at the time that she saw him
she was pressed with other matters. A very personal
friend of hers that Gurudāsa is now staying with
told us that she was very impressed, her personal
secretary was very impressed, and that she said—we
have it on tape—that she would like to see us again
and she was sorry that she didn't realize that we had
been waiting for so long. Otherwise we could have
come earlier, she would have (indistinct) In that
way (indistinct) some time in the future.
Devotee (4): In (indistinct) we saw some yogi.
Prabhupāda: Pressing nose. Nose-pressing
philosophy.
Devotee (5): Haṭha-yoga also.
Yamunā: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: So what was his philosophy?
Yamunā: You do some exercises and know God, be
self-realized.
Prabhupāda: You should have said to him, "Are
you self-realized?"
Yamunā: I'm such a rascal, I didn't even try.
Prabhupāda: If they tell you then he's God...
Devotee (5): (indistinct) exercise and breathing
(indistinct) some type of meditation performed.
Yamunā: He's social swami, a very social swami.
He's very polished in a material way.
Devotees (5): (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: And smoking also?
Yamunā: I didn't inquire into his vices.
Devotee (5): In New York they call them "uptown
swamis."
Yamunā: His example of spiritual life is based on
material prosperity.
Prabhupāda: So why they should go to
the yoga system? The science is more advanced.
Before flying in the sky by a yogi he has to press his
nose for so many years and the science has given us
the airplane. He can purchase ticket, immediately
fly. (laughter) What is use of pressing nose?
Yamunā: You explain that in Bhāgavatam.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the use, wasting time?
Revatīnandana: (indistinct) about when you walk
on the water, walking on the water is a bogus thing
(indistinct) two cent yogi because for two cents he
could have taken (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: That's all. If that is the ultimate end
of life, to walk on the water or to fly in the sky, so
science has given them all opportunity. And the
material science is so advanced, that all
this yoga system is now almost accomplished
because that is material only, material
prosperity. Aiye.
Yamunā: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes, eating flesh sumptuously and
get fat. Flesh-eaters get fatty very quickly, flesh-
eaters. Māṁsa. The skin becomes increased for
flesh-eating. You see in your country, the Russia?
Russian beauty-big belly, fat. That...
Yamunā: Germans are like that too. Germans.
Prabhupāda: Germans. If you eat meat, you very
quickly can get fat. Also too much ghee also. That is
also. But ghee will increase your belly only. Just
the Marwaris... (laughter) But by eating flesh you'll
get sturdy, good lump of muscles. That is... In Āyur-
Veda there is a chapter which is called Dravya-
guṇa. There is a book, Dravya-guṇa. So they have
analyzed so many different kinds of flesh-birds,
beasts, animals. How they have analyzed? That "If
you eat this kind flesh you will get this kind of
result." Hundreds of fleshes. What do they know?
They can eat only cow's flesh or dog's flesh or hog's
flesh. Yes. But there are so many, even birds, beasts,
animals, and so many, analysis. And Bernard Shaw,
I think, he wrote one book, "You Are What You Eat."
Haṁsadūta: George Bernard Shaw.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are becoming animals,
animals eating animal flesh. Bernard Shaw was
vegetarian.
Devotee (6): Except he would take liver for his
health.
Prabhupāda: Liver?
Devotee (6): Yes. He used to take some liver
periodically for his health.
Prabhupāda: Medicine. There are many liver
extract preparations.
Devotee (6): No, not liver extract. Maybe. I don't
know exactly. But I know he used to take liver. Not
cod liver oil or anything.
Prabhupāda: No, liver extract preparations there
are many medicines. For anemic patient liver
extract is recommended.
Devotee (6): That's all right for us to take?
Prabhupāda: No, but if you are going to die, then
you can take.
Yamunā: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: When required for such trouble, if
you are going to die, then, to save yourself, you can.
Devotee (6): If that liver can be eaten raw...
Prabhupāda: If you are going to die. Not ordinary.
If it is clear that without liver extract you shall die,
you can take.
Devotee (4): You cannot tell. You can't tell until
you actually (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Because when there is question of
death it is recommended you may take anything to
save your life.
Yamunā: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: But those who are rigid, they are
prepared to die even.
Yamunā: Vaiṣṇavas, wouldn't they just chant?
Prabhupāda: Their proposal is "Death is sure
today or tomorrow, so why shall I change my
principles? Death will take place even if I live for ten
years more, and what is the benefit? Why shall I
change my principles? It is not that by taking that
medicine or liver extract I shall
be amara, immortal." That is not possible. If
somebody gives some medicine that one can make
himself immortal, that is another thing. Nobody is
going to be immortal. Why he should be afraid of
death? Death will take place. "As sure as death." So
today, or tomorrow, or hundred years after. So if
one moment is utilized for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that
makes life successful. Why shall I live for hundred
years, waste my time? One moment is sufficient for
living.
Himāvatī: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I just have one
question about the ending, that Ajāmila, he was
calling the name of his youngest son.
Prabhupāda: Nārāyaṇa.
Himāvatī: He was thinking but he was calling out
to him, and after calling, he was reminded of his
early life, of his worshiping the real Nārāyaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Nārāyaṇa.
Himāvatī: And therefore Nārāyaṇa saved him.
Isn't that true?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Himāvatī: Not that he was simply calling
and Nārāyaṇa had to save him...
Prabhupāda: But simply calling, "Nārāyaṇa," he
reminded, he remembered. Remembered. Yes.
Himāvatī: He remembered the real Nārāyaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Because actually when one chants
Lord Kṛṣṇa's name, Lord's name, immediately he
remembers Lord's form, activities, pastimes,
everything. That is natural.
Himāvatī: Not that he was unconsciously just
chanting and the Lord saved him in that way, but he
actually remembered the Lord.
Prabhupāda: That is the remark of
Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. But according to
others' opinion, even simply by chanting, that is
sufficient. In the Bhāgavata it is stated like that.
But Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura has remarked
that this chanting referred to the context.
Immediately he remembered Nārāyaṇa.
Himāvatī: In that same connection, the story of
Ṭhākura Haridāsa and the harlot. She began to
chant and told him the reason that she was a
prostitute, she was no good and simply by that
association she began to chant or by previous
association...
Prabhupāda: No, by association. By the influence
of Haridāsa Ṭhākura. For three days, three days she
associated.
Himāvatī: But Professor Sanyal was putting
forward his theory that in previous lives she had had
association; therefore she began to chant.
Prabhupāda: Why previous lives? That's not very
good reason.
Himāvatī: Subconscious, that she had
subconsciously remembered.
Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. That is not.
Himāvatī: In one of the Back to
Godhead magazines
Prabhupāda: That is not. He advocates that.(?)
Direct association with Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Why
previously?
Himāvatī: We want to say that previously she had
done some chanting.
Prabhupāda: We don't find any such thing.
Professor Sanyal was not very much advanced. He
committed so many blunders.
Himāvatī: You heard about that article?
Prabhupāda: No.
Himāvatī: That was the (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Well, if that sort of remark is given it
is not against the śāstra, but it was not necessarily
previously. His direct
association... Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,
sādhu saṅga sādhu saṅga sarva śāstra kaya
lava mātra sādhu saṅge sarva siddhi haya
[Cc. Madhya 22.54]
"Even a moment's association with a pure devotee—
all success." Not necessarily that one has to acquire
it previous, no. Generally it is so,
but sādhu sanga has got its
effect. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, lavamatra sādhu
sanga sarva siddhi haya. You have not read in
the Sanātana-śikṣā in the Teachings of
Lord Caitanya?
Revatīnandana: Does that also apply to reading
the words of a pure devotee?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: Even a little association with
your books has the same effect?
Prabhupāda: Effect, of course, it requires both the
things. One must be very eager to take it. Just
like Mahārāja Parīkṣit heard Śrīmad-
Bhāgavatam, and there are so many others. They
are also reading Śrīmad-
Bhāgavatam. So Mahārāja Parīkṣit was very
serious. So both things should be serious. Just like
the example: the husband and wife must be potent;
then there is pregnancy. Otherwise there is no
pregnancy. So sewing the seed, the field also must
be fertile or receptive, then the seed will fructify. It
is reciprocal.
Revatīnandana: If the seed starts to sprout and it
lacks sufficient facilities, then it will die completely.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Revatīnandana: But if a spiritual seed sprouts,
then whatever sprout is made is never lost. Right?
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not lost, but it is checked.
Sometimes he is checked.
Revatīnandana: Because the tendency to revive
again.
Prabhupāda: In that way again one has to... That
brings the question of previous life. One was
advanced so much; it was checked by some reason;
he again begins from that point. Just
like Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura. Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura
was advanced in his previous life up to bhava-
bhakti. Somehow or other, it was checked. But as
soon as he heard the words from the prostitute, "Oh,
you are so much after the flesh and similar, and
bones and skin. If you had been so much eager
for Kṛṣṇa, how you would have been disposed,"
immediately he came to that point and immediately
left. I'll take (devotees offer obeisances)
Devotee (6): Śrīla Prabhupāda? The other day you
talked about the spirit soul and his position in
the brahmajyoti, that there's no shelter there. Just
like we go up, up, up into the sky (indistinct) there's
no shelter there so you have to go to some planet. So
I was thinking that the reason why our position is
shaky is due to this body, but spirit, being restless
can remain anywhere...
Prabhupāda: Yes, but there the shelter is
transcendental bliss. The impersonal Brahman is
not transcendental bliss. It is simply eternity. But
we want three things: eternity, full knowledge, and
blissful life. So there is no bliss.
Devotee (6): Yes. Just as we require shelter
because we have the body...
Prabhupāda: Yes. So similarly, this living entity
also requires shelter of blissful life. That is this
association of Kṛṣṇa. So unless he gets that, he wants
blissfulness, but—there is some spiritual
blissfulness; he has no information—he comes down
again to this perverted blissfulness of this material
world.
Devotee (6): They don't take their pleasure in
being there in the brahmajyoti?
Prabhupāda: There is no pleasure. Blissfulness is
not there, brahmajyoti is simply eternity, that's all.
The same example can be given. Just like sunlight.
There is only light. But on a planet the effect of the
light is there—there are so many trees, so many
flowers, fruits. We, we want varieties of pleasure.
Variety is the mother of...
devotees: "Variety is the spice of life."
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Himāvatī: Spice of life.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes. So therefore, we are living
entities, life. We want variety. So this is the
varietyless, no variety, one kind, sunlight. We
require sunlight. We are so much anxious for
sunlight. Not only sunlight.
Revatīnandana: It must get very boring. It is very
boring in the brahmajyoti? You get very bored?
There is nothing to do? Nowhere to go?
Prabhupāda: Bore?
Haṁsadūta: Boring, dull.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Himāvatī: But at first they are satisfied, aren't
they, that they've achieved their goal?
Prabhupāda: Aviśuddha-
buddhayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. They do not know. They
are after brahmaṇanda, transcendental pleasure,
but they do not know what is actually
transcendental pleasure, impersonalists. Therefore
their intelligence is not clean. They go to the
spiritual kingdom, transcendental platform, but
they do not that know, how real transcendental
pleasure can be achieved. Therefore their knowledge
is not perfect.
Revatīnandana: When they want to come back, is
it very easy for them to come back or have they got
to...?
Prabhupāda: No, they automatically come back
because he is hankering after varieties. So that
variety is not there, so he is attracted again in the
material world. Just like so many sannyāsīs. Take
Vivekananda. He wanted to lecture on Vedānta,
which is liberation. He came again back to the
hospitalizing and philanthropic work because he
could not find the variety of pleasure in Vedānta. Of
course, he was not very much advanced. There are
many. There is a... Sannyāsī is here. he's
a Kārpātrī(?). He is very learned and other... He
was formerly speaking on Vedānta and other... Now
he is in politics and cow protection. You see? There
are many.
Revatīnandana: I have a hazy memory that one
time I heard that when a soul, when it finally does
enter into brahmajyoti, that he has to remain there
for some long duration of time, a daytime
of Brahmā or a lifetime of Brahmā. Is that correct?
What is that duration?
Prabhupāda: Not that. That is not like that.
Revatīnandana: Not like that. Thank you.
Prabhupāda: But he feels inconvenience without
varieties of life. The Bhāgavata says, tvayy asta-
bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ: "Their intelligence
is not
clean." Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ:
[SB 10.2.32] "Although they rise up to
the brahmajyoti," patanty adho tataḥ, "they again
come back."
Haṁsadūta: And the nirvāṇa conception of life is
just before Brahman?
Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa conception is marginal
position between brahmajyoti and this material
world.
Haṁsadūta: Just on the brink.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāraṇārṇava.
Kāraṇārṇava. The Kāraṇa Ocean wherefrom the
beginning of creation, material creation, that
is nirvāṇa.
Devotee (4): Virajā.
Prabhupāda: Virajā, yes.
Revatīnandana: Is it possible to go there?
Prabhupāda: Why not? Yes.
Devotee (4): Arjuna went there.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: What was Arjuna's purpose?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa took him to show His friend.
He did not go alone. That he could not. No.
(laughter) It was Kṛṣṇa's chariot.
Revatīnandana: So he went to the spiritual sky?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then what is the use of making
friendship with Kṛṣṇa if you cannot do so? There
was a rich man in Calcutta, Motilal Sill. He was so
rich that... Every man has different circle in younger
days. So he would see. If any of his friends did not
possess a house in Calcutta, he would purchase
house. He said that, "If people say, 'Oh, you are
friend of Motilal Sill. You have no your own house?'
what people will say about me? He must have his
own house." He purchased house for him. He was
very big man. And there are many incidences also
like, a very noble story. Actually it was not long ago,
say about hundred years ago. He would not see that
any one of his associates, friends, does not possess a
house in Calcutta. Another Kṛṣṇa's friend, Sudama
also. (chuckles) He could not recognize his own
place, how it had happened, palatial buildings,
garden. In Kṛṣṇa, you have not read Sudama? Give
me water.
Yamunā: (indistinct) mentions in the Teachings of
Lord Caitanya that a devotee in attachment selects
one of the Vṛndāvana..., the inhabitants
of Vṛndāvana, and follows in his footsteps in order
to be successful in his own devotional service. Does
that mean that one of our spiritual masters is an
eternal representative of Vṛndāvana? (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: What is that? Let me...
Yamunā: It says, "All inhabitants of
Vrajabhūmi, Vṛndāvana, are very dear to Kṛṣṇa. A
devotee in attachment selects one of the inhabitants
and follows in his footsteps in order to be
successful."
Prabhupāda: Devotee... Devoted to
the Vṛndāvana inhabitants. You don't directly think
of yourself that "I shall see Kṛṣṇa as my son."
Yamunā: No.
Prabhupāda: No.
Yamunā: No.
Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda.
Yamunā: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You have to follow the footsteps
of Yasoda Ma.
Yamunā: Yes. You've told me that before.
Prabhupāda: Then it will be success.
Revatīnandana: But you've said that you are
always in Vṛndāvana, so we are following
a Vṛndāvana inhabitant.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter)
Yamunā: It says, "One should always remember
the activities of that particular inhabitant of Vraja."
Prabhupāda: Now you have got Kapoor(?)
daughter?
Devotee (4): Yes.
Revatīnandana: Have we got an engagement this
morning?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Haṁsadūta: He asked if we have an engagement
this morning. 8:30.
Prabhupāda: Oh, Molpar(?), yes. They'll send car?
Yamunā: Yes.
Prabhupāda: How far it is?
Haṁsadūta: It's supposed to be just in the
neighborhood.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all. He was formerly
prince.
Revatīnandana: Of this area?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: He had given (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: That is the sign of princely opulence.
Revatīnandana: He's the son of the man we saw
last week? This Mahārāja? It's not his son?
Prabhupāda: No, no, he is also old man.
Haṁsadūta: I won't be going to that place because
I'll be waiting for Mr. Homing.
Prabhupāda: Homing is coming?
Haṁsadūta: Yes. (indistinct) we'll open a bank
account.
Prabhupāda: That's it.
Haṁsadūta: We'll open a one-sided account.
Prabhupāda: Book fund account and one,
International Society, checking account. (devotees
offer obeisances) So what we have to do in that
connection?
Devotee (4): (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: The water? [break] Where is your
son? (Hindi) This is material conception. (Hindi)
(end)