The Original CZ Forum

Hello,  I am trying to find out more about a gun I have for sale that I am having a hard time getting information from EAA about.

If I go to their site and check the Witness page it says "Witness Polymer Full Size" and they list one 9mm SKU, 999104 described as having a 4.5" barrel and a 17+1 capacity.

My gun is not listed on the site and is a SKU 999244 also described as a full size Witness P gun but with a 16+1 capacity and it has the same 4.5" barrel. 

In earlier research I learned the Witness is called the Force and has variants, but I don't know which is comparable, if any, and how should this pistol be properly described if it isn't in face a "full size polymer Witness" as it is apparently smaller?

Also, something I read said it takes the magazines for a Witness Classic prior to 2005?

Help determining what this is and how it varies from the real "full size" pistol would be helpful and maybe a better description of what mags would be compatible.

Thanks so much!
Lew

I found another string on basically the same question so if you have something to add, it might be better to reply there...thanks!

Thanks for the reply, but I am still floating in confusion.

When I looked at the Force measurements on Wikipedia, these Tangfolios measure the same height and length of what appeared to be their biggest model.  I can't comprehend a small and large full size pistol.  Full size implies, as my measurements suggested, that the pistol is as tall and ans long as the biggest model, then where does the large and small come into play?  What dimensions are small and large? 

Speaking of magazines, I ordered an extra SAR mag labeled "MAGSAR9"  K2P 9mm 17rd OE SAR MAG"

Guess what the mag itself says:  MG WIT 9-FS

My research shows that is the small frame Tangfolio mag packaged and sold as a SAR K2P mag.  It fits in the SAR and the Tangfolio, but extends about 1/16" longer than the mags that came with the guns.  This leaves a unsightly gap between the baseplate and the grip.

Also, this new mag has a thin metal base plate.  The one on the SAR is also similar to it but not flat and the Tangfolio mag with the gun has a contoured plastic base plate to match the grip.

Thanks!

I am assuming there is something some where that distinguishes the small vs. large frame.  Which dimension is different between the two? 

I took pictures of the Tangfolio and the Sarsilmaz with their factory mags and with the Mec-Gar.  Unlike your mags, only the Tangfolio factory mag has a plastic baseplate and a nicer appearance.





Thanks

As you can see, I went back to my previous message to show the K2P and Witness with the MG WIT 9-SF mag in it.

To reiterate, I was sold the MG WIT 9-SF as the OEM mag for the K2P even though the labeling is clearly for the Witness.  And that isn't to say that it isn't the exact same dimension as what the SAR mag would be, and to match the SAR mag, the baseplate was swapped for a metal one.  However, as you can see, the length of the mag or how it sits in the pistol is different in both the Witness and in the SAR.

Rather than showing the mags in the gun, I just took pictures with the mags out of the gun and had quite the discovery I hope I can get help with.



In this picture you can see the mags are similar other than the holes are on the right side of the MG mag and numbered to 17.  When they are flipped over, you see the SAR marked to 15, the Witness unmarked, but clearly the same as the SAR mag, and you will see the stamped MG WIT 9-SF.  Clearly MG=MecGar WIT=Witness 9-SF=9mm Small Frame



Now is where it gets weird..when spinning them around I noticed the front of the mags was different, a lot different....



A hole in the face of the mag the others didn't have and instead of a straight cut on the top, it has the "pointed" from edge in the metal I hope you can see in the black on black photo.

Is this a "new" version of the mag, and is it fully backwards compatible?  What is the hole for, some new feature?

Should there be any feeding problems with the Witness or SAR?

Thanks

Now, where it gets weird, at least for me, is the next picture

I am a gun dealer and have both the Witness and K2P in stock, and the magazine fits fine in both guns other than the littler larger gap between the baseplate and the grip, but only an aesthetics issue.  Since these are new guns, and in inventory, I don't shoot the guns so I don't know how this new version of the mag will work in either gun.

I was hoping someone on this forum would know about this mag design change which is obvious to make the mag better or compatible with something else or something new coming out.  They wouldn't add more cuts to the manufacturing process if they aren't needed for some reason.

This same mag is also sold with the plastic base plate with the same info stamped on the mag, just another flavor.  BTW, I am 99% sure this new version of the mag came from EAA to the distributor I bought it from.

Thanks...any thoughts on the top edge of the magazine, the change in design there?  Seems those changes, i.e. that different cut is below where it would have any use or function, but if it is tied to some new thing coming out, I guess we will have to wait and see.

I ordered the second version of that mag.  The first one was sold as a SAR K2P mag although marked as a Witness mag.  Now I am ordering the same mag, but as a Witness mag, for less $ and it has the plastic base plate. 

Thanks for confirming my suspicion.

I placed an order with the same company for their Witness magazine.  It is the same magazine as the one sold as a K2P magazine but instead of the metal base plate, it has the plastic base plate.  They sell the Witness version for less than the K2P version, with the only difference being that base plate.

Interesting twist on the story.  The mag that came with the Witness with the plastic base place does fit in the K2P.  The one I just received made by Mec-Gar fits in the Witness, but not the K2P.  The plastic baseplate is designed differently (thicker?) so it won't engage the magazine release.  I suspect it could be shaved down to work, but it is odd that the one on the Mec-Gar brand mag is different.