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Current disputes

Helms Amendment to the Foreign Assistance Act

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by 3Kingdoms on 01:53, 11 November 2023 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Helms Amendment to the Foreign Assistance Act (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• 3Kingdoms (talk · contribs)
• Wes sideman (talk · contribs)
• Firefangledfeathers (talk · contribs)
• Avatar317 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The crux of the issue hinges around two points. The first is the question of including polling and support for the amendment. The second is whether the section on the Mexico City Policy should be reduced or kept the same.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

[1]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I hope a compromise can be made over the disagreements and/or clarification by uninvolved parties as to what is the best way to settle the dispute.

Summary of dispute by 3Kingdoms

I believe that there is enough support to include a Marist poll about American views on the funding of abortion overseas for the article. Besides the Helms Amendment being the governing policy as it relates to the polling in question, reliable sources have also mentioned the polling in the context of the amendment or vice versa [2], [3], [4]. Also, I believe a section on groups that support the amendment should be included along with.

Regarding the Mexico City Policy, while I do believe it should be mentioned in the see also section and maybe a brief mention in the article, I do not believe that a full summary of the policy's history and how each administration since Reagan enacted or rescinded it needs to be included. Helms is a separate policy than the MCP. Also, the current opening line for the MCP part "While the Helms Amendment put a stop to the efforts of USAID and similar organizations to promote safe abortion overseas, it did not satisfy some anti-abortion activists." To my mind violate NPOV and should be removed or at least reworded.

Summary of dispute by Wes sideman

I'm in favor of including information about the Helms Amendment that is included in reliable sources that discuss the Amendment in depth. There are numerous reliable secondary sources that discuss the relationship between the Amendment and the Mexico City policy: [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11].... the list could go on forever if I wanted to copy-paste for a few more days.

In contrast, sourcing linking a single Marist poll 2 years ago, commissioned by the Knights of Columbus (a strongly anti-abortion organization), to the Helms Amendment is extremely weak. The Forbes source mentions the Marist poll in passing, once. The 2nd source is an article from the Catholic News Service, on its face not a reliable secondary source, obviously, and besides, mentions the Helms Amendment once, in passing. The third source, a Deseret News article (newspaper owned by the LDS Church) is an article about a completely different piece of legislation, the Hyde Amendment. It mentions the Helms Amendment briefly, and later, with no connection between the two, mentions the Marist poll once. It feels like a WP:COATRACK situation to crowbar a Marist poll commissioned by an anti-abortion religious org into an article with good reliable secondary sourcing on everything else. Wes sideman (talk) 18:16, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Helms Amendment to the Foreign Assistance Act discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

First statement by moderator (Helms Amendment)

I am ready to moderate this dispute. Please read DRN Rule D, which is the rules covering disputes over a contentious topic. Please be aware of the ArbCom decision on abortion, which finds that abortion, broadly construed, is a contentious topic, and disruptive editing is subject to special sanctions. Do not ask me for expertise about the Helms Amendment or the Mexico City policy. It is the responsibility of the disputing parties to provide the moderator with any necessary information, just as it is the responsibility of the editors of Wikipedia to provide readers with information. Please acknowledge that you understand and will comply with the rules.

The purpose of conflict resolution is to improve the encyclopedia, because that is the purpose of all editing of the encyclopedia. So please start by making a one-paragraph or two-paragraph statement as to what you think should be changed in the article, or what you think should be left the same that another editor wants changed. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:16, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

First statements by editors (Helms Amendment)

• I'm an interested party in this dispute. I've re-read rule set D and agree to follow it. Based on what I know now, I'd prefer to trim the Mexico City Policy content (to something about a paragraph long, and not in it's own section) and continue to exclude the poll content. I'm open to changing my mind based on further evidence. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 21:32, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

• I understand and will comply with the rules. I believe the change should be as follows: First a separate section called support that reads along the lines of "The Amendment is supported by the Catholic Church and anti-abortion organizations such as the Susan B. Anthony List" Followed by: Polling has shown around 75% of American oppose funding for abortion overseas. For the Mexico City Policy, I say as a compromise it reads: "Some anti-abortion activists felt that the Amendment did not go far enough which led to the creation of the Mexico City Policy in 1984 which prohibits federal funding to NGOs that perform or actively promote abortion as a method of family planning."3Kingdoms (talk) 03:31, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

• The long-stable version of the article included sourced paragraphs about the Mexico City policy and its relationship to the Helms Amendment. I added some sourcing to that and some minor touch-ups, and believe that section is fine as is. The Marist poll is one of countless polls about abortion in the USA, it was commissioned by a pro-life organization, and to cherry-pick that one poll, with only the most tenuous of connections to the subject of the article, reeks of POV-pushing, in my opinion. Wes sideman (talk) 13:52, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator (Helms Amendment)

It appears that there are two issues. The first is whether to leave the current language about the Mexico City policy as is, or to trim it down. The editors who want to trim it down may also want to remove the section heading. The second issue appears to be whether to include or exclude the Marist poll. Will each editor please state, briefly, what they think should be in the article about the Mexico City policy? A compromise may be possible, and is desirable if possible. Will each editor please state whether they think that the Marist poll should be included? The issue of the poll appears to be a yes-no question, but if anyone has a compromise idea, please state it. If there are any other issues, please state them, concisely. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:21, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Second statements by editors (Helms Amendment)

I think we should mention that the Mexico City policy was an expansion of the Helms Amendment restrictions, briefly describe the policy's effects, and briefly summarize its history across the following presidential administrations. I still think this can be about a paragraph long. I don't think we should include the Marist poll, and I don't have a compromise idea. I would change my mind if there were more reliable sources mainly about the Helms Amendment that draw a connection between it and the poll; so far I think only the Forbes piece makes the cut. I don't believe there are other issues. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:31, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator (Helms Amendment)

User:Avatar317 - I will add you to the list of editors.

At this point, it doesn't appear that there is disagreement about the Mexico City policy, but rather agreement that coverage of the Mexico City policy should be trimmed down. If anyone disagrees, please say so.

At this point, it doesn't appear that there is disagreement about the Marist poll, but rather agreement to leave it out. If anyone disagrees, please say so.

Are there any other issues or areas of disagreement? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:20, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Third statements by editors (Helms Amendment)

I still disagree about the exclusion of the Marist Polling due to the it being rated one of the best polling sites. The objections about the Knight of Columbus sponsoring the poll I do not find convincing. The Guttmacher institute is pro-abortion but is used as a source. I do not see why a poll from a highly rated place should be disregarded because it was sponsored by a group that is anti-abortion. The other objection about a lack of connection I understand, but still unconvinced by. If the poll is excluded I still think a small section in support for the helm amendment from the Catholic Church, the Knights, and anti-abortion groups is worth having.3Kingdoms (talk) 16:18, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

The main reason for excluding the poll is that there isn't significant coverage from reliable sources connecting the poll to the Helms Amendment. Wes sideman (talk) 18:13, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

See rule D6 in DRN Rule D. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I disagree. One source comes from Forbes Staff the other from Desert news which are both listed as a reliable source. America is not listed but is generally regarded as reliable. 3Kingdoms (talk) 03:37, 21 November 2023 (UTC) There are countless sources that report on polls about abortion, and some of them mention the Helms Amendment. If we mentioned every single poll that exists in an article that mention the Helms Amendment, the article would be 200,000 words very quickly. Wes sideman (talk) 15:58, 21 November 2023 (UTC) At least three reliable sources mention this poll giving it notability. Along with the fact that Marist is highly rated for polling. 3Kingdoms (talk) 04:13, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Fourth statement by moderator (Helms Amendment)

There appears to be agreement that the coverage of the Mexico City policy should be trimmed down.

There appears to be disagreement about the Marist poll. I will ask those editors who oppose including the Marist poll to state whether they oppose it on grounds of reliability of the sources, as undue weight, or bias.

Are there any other issues or areas of disagreement? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:59, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

The only reason thing I can think of is deciding if the article should include a section mentioning organizations that support the amendment. 3Kingdoms (talk) 04:15, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I oppose including the poll based on non-reliability of the poll. (Undue weight for ONE poll paid for by a non-neutral organization.) "Marist surveyed 1,004 adults Jan. 4-9 via landline or mobile numbers and interviewed respondents by telephone using live interviewers". - The two sources which mention this poll, qualify it by who paid for it. (Forbes qualifies it even more: "A majority of Americans are broadly supportive of abortion rights, but a Marist poll conducted in January for the Knights of Columbus—which is opposed to abortion..." as if it is a strange exception.) It doesn't even seem to be available on the website of Marist, only on the KofC's site (who paid for the poll). As I said earlier, abortion polls are notorious for getting wildly different results based on the specifics of how they are worded, and in this case, maybe who they ask. How many educated people answer phone polls when an unidentified number shows up on caller ID? (Support for abortion is well documented to be higher among more educated people.) ---Avatar317^(talk) 07:31, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

No back-and-forth except in the section for the purpose. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I understand the point, but feel that Marist's respected status as a polling group justifies it Pollster Ratings - Marist College | FiveThirtyEight Anyway cheers! 3Kingdoms (talk) 15:17, 22 November 2023 (UTC) So just a very quick search without more investigation finds this 2021 opinion piece by a reproductive rights organization which cites a poll which directly contradicts the Marist poll: "Recent polling shows that a majority of Americans support funding global health programs that provide comprehensive reproductive health services, abortion included. The same poll showed a majority of Americans want to repeal Helms." We could do more searching for polls, but I predict the results will be wildly inconsistent, especially if the polls are funded by pro/anti groups, rather than neutral organizations. ---Avatar317(talk) 18:51, 22 November 2023 (UTC) The link to the polling for the article did not work for me. Is it the polling referred to in this article? Jayapal’s claim that ‘the majority of the country’ supports federal funding of abortion - The Washington Post 3Kingdoms (talk) 19:29, 22 November 2023 (UTC) I don't know, the link didn't work for me either, so I couldn't investigate that poll. Thanks for finding the WaPo story, though! It supports what I was saying: We’re often wary of polls commissioned by advocacy groups. In this case, Jayapal is relying on a poll done for a group that wants more public funding of abortions. The outcome of polls often depends greatly on the framing of questions. ---Avatar317(talk) 02:00, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Fourth statements by editors (Helms Amendment)

• I'm not sure if the Marist poll issue is resolved, but I haven't changed my mind. It seems like the only other pending issues are
  1. working out exactly what the trimmed Mexico City Policy content would look like
  2. deciding whether there should be a support section
  . I don't think there's a draft proposal on the table for either, so it's hard for me to weigh in. I'd be equally fine with reviewing proposals here or through normal talk page discussion or editing. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:31, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  2 - I oppose a support section withOUT an opposition section, and if we have that, both should be sourced to INDEPENDENT/Neutral Sources, not the Catholic News service.

  3 - I'm ok with continuing this discussion on the Talk page. ---Avatar317^(talk) 18:56, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  I have no objection to an opposition section. I do not agree about the sourcing. In my experience CNA gives reliable information even if wording is done from a Catholic viewpoint. Furthermore, it is independent of the USCCB. If Guttmacher is used as a source I do not see a reason to oppose this one. 3Kingdoms (talk) 19:37, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  That is oversimplifying of sources. Guttmacher would not be a good source for who supports and opposes the Helms Amendment, (and I don't think they publish that type of content) just like CNA is not a good source because CNA would give greater coverage to Catholics and their viewpoint rather than Evangelicals for example; for supporters/opponents we should stick to mainstream news sources.

  Guttmacher is highly respected and cited by both sides of the abortion debate for their DATA and statistics about abortions (number, demographics, etc.) so they are a Reliable Source for any of that type of content. ---Avatar317^(talk) 06:15, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

  I understand what you’re saying, but wiki also does not object to a source just because they have a bias. Given that this would only be one sentence I think including the CNA source is fine. If it was being cited across much of the article I agreed it would seem overused. 3Kingdoms (talk) 18:17, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

• My proposal for the Mexico City Policy is: "Some anti-abortion activists felt that the Amendment did not go far enough which led to the creation of the Mexico City Policy in 1984 which prohibits federal funding to NGOs that perform or actively promote abortion as a method of family planning."
• For support I proposed: "The Amendment is supported by the Catholic Church and anti-abortion organizations such as the Susan B. Anthony List" [https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/248183/us-bishops-urge-congress-to-prohibit-taxpayer-funding-of-abortions] 3Kingdoms (talk) 15:13, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Fifth statement by moderator (Helms Amendment)

See Rule D.6 in DRN Rule D.

There seems to be agreement to trim down the discussion of the Mexico City policy, which has its own article, and that perhaps it is sufficient to say that it changes depending on the political party in the White House. You may use the section for back-and-forth discussion to work out a trimmed version.

If there continues to be disagreement about the Marist poll, an RFC may be in order. Does anyone want to propose an alternative resolution?

Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

The only remaining one is the question of including a support section alongside the opposition one. 3Kingdoms (talk) 00:53, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Fifth statements by editors (Helms Amendment)

• I do think we're in rough agreement on the Mexico City Policy, and I bet we can work out the specifics without further moderated discussion. For the poll, I would prefer not to have an RfC, and I'd hope to see advocates of inclusion see that it's not been gathering steam as uninvolved voices joined in and maybe just drop it. It does seem like there's one additional content concern, about the inclusion of a support section. The proposed content is pretty short. If it's to be about that length, I'd rather change the "Opposition" section to "Support and opposition" and include the short addition at the beginning. "supported by the Catholic Church" is not quite supported by the source, but "supported by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops" would be fine. I don't have concerns about the usability of CNA for a short summary. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:34, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

  While I still believe the poll should be included I do agree that I am in the minority and have not gotten addition support. I lean to RFC just to hear from other editors, but if not I understand. Agree about one section of support and opposition. Also agree with changing Catholic Church to USCCB. Cheers! 3Kingdoms (talk) 18:22, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Sixth statement by moderator (Helms Amendment)

See Rule D.6 in DRN Rule D.

There still seems to be agreement to trim down the discussion of the Mexico City policy, which has its own article, and that perhaps it is sufficient to say that it changes depending on the political party in the White House.

There seems to be agreement to add a Support section before the Opposition section.

We don't have to have agreement to have an RFC on the Marist poll. An RFC is used to obtain community rough consensus when there isn't agreement. Is there agreement to include the poll? Is there agreement to exclude the poll? If one editor wants an RFC, we can have an RFC. What if anything is there agreement on, about the poll?

Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Sixth statements by editors (Helms Amendment)

• I believe that we do not yet have agreement on a Support section. I had proposed having one section called "Support and opposition", since the proposed content about support is so brief. It looks like 3K agreed with that proposal, but the other parties have not weighed in on that issue specifically. 3K and I are also in agreement about what the support content should say and that the proposed source is reliable enough. A317's fourth statement suggests that they would oppose the proposed support content. I acknowledge the point about an RfC being warranted even if just one editor wants it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Seventh statement by moderator (Helms Amendment)

There still seems to be agreement to trim down the discussion of the Mexico City policy, which has its own article, and that perhaps it is sufficient to say that it changes depending on the political party in the White House.

It appears that there is disagreement on whether to include the Marist poll, but I want to verify that. Will each participant please state what their opinion is on including the Marist poll?

It appears that there is disagreement about either a separate Support section or redesignating the Opposition section as Support and Opposition. Will each participant please state what their position is on identifying Supporters?

Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:37, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Seventh statements by editors (Helms Amendment)

I believe the Marist Poll is worth including and support having a combined "Support and Opposition" section. 3Kingdoms (talk) 23:32, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't have anything new to say about the Marist poll; I'm still opposed. I favor a Support and opposition section that includes at least one sentence on support from the USCCB and anti-abortion orgs. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:50, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose inclusion of the Marist poll. Support small combined "Support and Opposition" section. ---Avatar317^(talk) 00:44, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Eighth statement by moderator (Helms Amendment)

There still seems to be agreement to trim down the discussion of the Mexico City policy, which has its own article, and that perhaps it is sufficient to say that it changes depending on the political party in the White House.

An RFC is needed on whether to include the Marist poll.

Are all of the editors agreeable to a Support section and an Opposition section, or do some editors want a single Support and Opposition section? If there is disagreement, an RFC will be used.

Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 08:49, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Back-and-forth discussion (Helms Amendment)

I don't know the procedure for editors to offer opinions on DRN; this is my first post here.

I support trimming the "Mexico City Policy" section by concatenating the last three paragraphs into one saying something on the order of "Democratic presidential administrations have removed it, while Republican ones have re-instated it"; (the years and presidents can be seen in that article)...maybe including the small comment about Trump's expansion. It shouldn't be its own section.

Single poll should be excluded; doesn't sound like this is representative of true population's opinion based on the sources and who commissioned the poll. Abortion polls are notorious for getting wildly different results based on the specifics of how they are worded.---Avatar317^(talk) 23:36, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

I also support trimming the back-and-forth Democratic-to-Republican admins policy reversals into a single simple sentence. Was actually going to to do that myself, but then this discussion was launched, so I held off. Wes sideman (talk) 14:55, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Ukrainian language

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Crash48 on 10:35, 22 November 2023 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Ukrainian language (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Crash48 (talk · contribs)
• Rsk6400 (talk · contribs)
• Austronesier (talk · contribs)
• Mzajac (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Disagreement on whether the usage of the term Little Russian language by non-Russians, and in particular, by Ukrainians themselves, including those never subject to Russian imperial oppression, should be mentioned in the article.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

• Talk:Ukrainian language#Little Russian language
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Third_opinion&diff=prev&oldid=1176410679
• Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 107#Talk:Ukrainian language#Little Russian language
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&oldid=1185623520#Ukrainian_language

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Establish whether the usage of the term Little Russian language by non-Russians, and in particular, by Ukrainians themselves, including those never subject to Russian imperial oppression, should be mentioned in the article.

Summary of dispute by Rsk6400

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Comment I'm not opposed to this kind of dispute resolution, but I'm not sure about this, because there were a lot of other participants involved in the discussions. Rsk6400 (talk) 14:10, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Summary The question is not, whether the use of the name "Little Russian" by certain authors should be included, but whether it should be included without reference to good secondary sources. Rsk6400 (talk) 09:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Austronesier

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Ukrainian language discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Zeroth statement by possible moderator (Ukrainian language)

I am still ready to try to mediate this dispute. Please read DRN Rule D, and reply whether you agree to moderated discussion subject to this set of rules, which include recognizing that the Ukrainian language is a contentious topic subject to the Arbitration Committee ruling on disputes about Eastern Europe. The contentious topics procedure has been provided in part to deal with battleground editing about world areas that have been historically real battlegrounds, or are current battlegrounds, and Ukraine is the area of the bloodiest war of the twenty-first century. An editor has said that there have been other editors involved in this dispute. After discussion, we may either use a Request for Comments to involve other editors, or invite the other editors to take part in this discussion.

So I am asking whether at least two editors agree to moderated discussion subject to DRN Rule D and Eastern Europe contentious topic rules. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

Yes, I think I understood the rules and am willing to take part. Rsk6400 (talk) 09:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I agree to moderated discussion subject to the suggested set of rules. --Crash48 (talk) 16:58, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I was not invited but I did participate in the above-mentioned previous discussion. I ask to be allowed to participate, and agree to the ground rules. Thank you. —Michael Z. 17:28, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

First statement by possible moderator (Ukrainian language)

The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the article. So I am asking each editor to state what they want changed in the article, or what they want left the same that another editor wants changed. It appears that one area of disagreement is whether to state that the language was sometimes called "Little Russian" in the past. Is that statement supported by a reliable source? If so, is there a reason of due weight or balance why it should not be mentioned?

Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:46, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

User:Mzajac will be added to the list of participants, and should answer the questions. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:46, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

First statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

Yes, the article should mention that the language has been called “Little Russian” at some times in some places, in a manner compliant with policies. But no, it certainly should not use the term, as it is pejorative language from a colonial legacy (and is currently used to support a violent campaign against Ukrainian nationhood). And as to the specific question at issue, the article should not just cite cherrypicked historical usages by Ukrainians in primary sources without context to imply something about the term’s acceptability. All discussion of the term should be composed with awareness of its context (including the meaning and implications of “Little Russia” and “Little Russian” [person], colonial relationships, and imperial censorship), avoid WP:SYNTH, and be used to provide information supported by recent reliable sources. And also note that the primary sources in question actually use several different terms, with different meanings, in different languages: malorusskoĭ litaraturě (“of Little-Russian literature”), malorossiĭsʹkym narichchiam (“in the Little-Russian dialect”), iazyka maloruskoho (“of the Little-Ruthenian language/tongue”), malorossiĭskago narěchiia (“of the Little-Russian dialect”), Malorossiĭskaia Eneida (“Little-Russian Aeneid”). —Michael Z. 06:38, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Question It seems to me that this edit[12] by Crash48 means that the mediation has failed, according to rule D, no. 5. Am I right ? Rsk6400 (talk) 06:54, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

The edit I want included in the article is [13]. Every statement added therein is attributed to a RS. Austronesier's statement at WP:ARC, although based on a slanderous premise misrepresenting a clearly attributed citation from Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute as my own OR, nevertheless confirmed Rublamb's earlier statement at Talk:Ukrainian language that citing primary sources is allowed as illustrative material for a conclusion which is itself cited from secondary sources.

As for other content issues: after I had filed this DR request, a new content dispute developed, unrelated to the mentions of Little Russian language. Rsk6400 insists on using the phrasing During the century after the 1654 Pereiaslav Agreement, Kyiv and the parts of Ukraine east of the Dnipro river gradually lost their autonomy in favour of tighter control by Russia. An unsuspecting reader may infer from this phrasing that East Ukraine gradually lost autonomy after being incorporated into the Tsardom of Russia, while West Ukraine retained its pre-1654 autonomy for another century at least. The actual history is exactly the opposite: after the forceful polonisation precipitated the Khmelnytsky Uprising in 1648, East Ukraine broke away from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and enjoyed a short-lived autonomy under the Tsardom of Russia, while West Ukraine remained under Polish oppression, and couldn't attain autonomy until after the Great War. This is why I want to change the misleading sentence into The 1654 Pereiaslav Agreement divided Ukraine between the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Tsardom of Russia. During the following century, both monarchies became increasingly intolerant of Ukrainian own cultural and political aspirations., which Rsk6400 opposes. --Crash48 (talk) 17:25, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Second statement by possible moderator (Ukrainian language)

I will not fail a moderation for an edit of the article so soon after I provided the rules, but I will restate that Rule D.5 states not to edit the article while discussion is in progress.

One editor calls for a use-mention distinction about the terminology "Little Russian". Is there agreement that this is the right approach? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:48, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

One editor has identified another content issue. If I understand correctly, what is agreed is that after 1654, Eastern Ukraine was part of the Tsardom of Russia, and Western Ukraine was under the rule of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The question of which state can be considered more autonomous is a national point of view. Is this disagreement about the wording of the Ukrainian language article, and where, or is it about the content of a different article? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:48, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Are there any other content issues?

Second statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

The proposed edit[14] demonstrates the dangers of “citing primary sources as illustrative material,” as at least one of the statements uses WP:OR to incorporate a misinterpretation of the primary source: “As late as 1845, the Ukrainian poet and philologist Ivan Vahylevych referred to his language as Little Russian.” it says, but that is false. According to the Encyclopedia of Ukraine,[15] Vahylevych’s work is “his published Polish grammar of the ‘Little Ruthenian’ language in Galicia (1845).” The title is Grammatyka Jȩzyka Małoruskiego w Galicii (Polish) or Hrammatyka Iazyka Malorusʹkoho v Halytsïy (Ukrainian/Rusyn), meaning “of Little Ruthenia” or “of Little Rus,” and definitely not “of Little Russia” (which would be “Małorosyjskiego” or “Malorosiĭsʹkoho”). This is clearly supported by the Polish-language passages in the right-hand side of the referenced image file, where we can see distinct mentions of both Russia (Róssia/Россїѧ) and Ruthenia/Rus (Ruś/Рꙋ́сь).

I don’t think the other assumptions in the proposal about vocabulary use are any more reliable, and presenting the collection of unreliable factoids to imply a pattern and encourage particular conclusion is engaging in an insidious form of WP:SYNTH. Instead, we should say what RS say about the historical use of the terminology, directly supported by them.

Although the question of autonomy in the seventeenth century is not directly relevant to this dispute, the issue of the division of Ukraine between empires and the treatment of Ukrainians and Ukraine therein is. Most of the sources in question are from the period of the Ukrainian National Revival in the nineteenth century. In this period, Ukraine continued to be called Ruthenia (a Latinization of Rusʹ) in the Habsburg empire (including Red Ruthenia, Chervona Rusʹ, and Carpathian Ruthenia, Karpatsʹka Rusʹ), but was named “Little Russia,” Malorossiia, in the Russian empire. We must also make the distinction between the medieval and early Modern term Mala Rusʹ/Malaia Rusʹ, and the Russian-empire colonial term Malorossiia, which had a different connotation. A Ukrainians was called a rusyn or rusnak, but the Russian empire invented a new term, maloros.

The Russian labelling was a colonial imposition accompanied by bans on Ukrainian language and violent denial and suppression of Ukrainian identity in ways that did not occur elsewhere (see, e.g., all-Russian nation). The fact that Ukrainians who were subject to this colonization for generations used the colonial vocabulary (or rather that their publishers who wanted to stay in business did) should not be put forward without context and explanation to draw mistaken conclusions from. —Michael Z. 18:18, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Comment on content, not contibutors. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

I request that we disregard other editors writing that I seem to agree to things that I did not write and do not agree with.  —Michael Z. 23:31, 3 December 2023 (UTC) Mzajac had already admitted that he didn't look at my edits before expressing his disapproval of them That was two and a half months ago, and that is inaccurate. I was responding to statements about principles, not expressing anything about their edits, shortly after joining a very large discussion, and did review the details after that. There is no point in going to dispute resolution and then dredging up months-old personal complaints. Mzajac seems to agree that the passage on autonomy in the 17th century isn't directly relevant to the subject of the article I never wrote that and I don’t agree with that.

Please respond to the moderator and write about the subject and not about other editors.

Comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
It’s disruptive and provocative to fabricate opinions for them. This dispute resolution appears to be going right off the rails. If it continues this way I will decline to keep dedicating time to it.

avoids any kind of comparison between West and East Ukraine, thereby keeping any national point of view out of the article

What does that mean? The division of Ukraine between empires and their respective treatment of it over the entire early Modern and Modern periods is extremely important to the subject. When Ukrainian language was banned in Russia, Ukrainians could travel to the Habsburg empire to publish their work in Ukrainian (e.g., look at Mykhailo Hrushevsky’s entire career). And when the Soviets conducted genocide, purges of Ukrainian cultural elites, and forcibly Russified the language in the 1930s, it was preserved in western Ukraine and then in the diaspora. This is a fundamental influence on the development of Ukrainian culture, literature, scientific knowledge, nationhood, and especially language. It’s one of the main narratives in every good history of Ukraine.  —Michael Z. 00:35, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Comment on content, not contribtors. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

I still have two problems with Crash48's edit I mentioned above: 1) The edit is related to the question of "Little Russian" (Crash48 denied this, but it's about the necessary context for the use of "Little Russian".) 2) I want to know, if I can revert them. If not, they should self-revert, because a mediation doesn't make much sense if one party is exempt from the rules. Rsk6400 (talk) 18:47, 3 December 2023 (UTC) The rules were provided on 24/11. Rsk6400 reverted the article on 25/11, and wishes to do so again. The one party he wishes to be exempt from the rules is himself. Also characteristic of him, as I had already commented earlier, is that he's quite enthusiastic to discuss my conduct, and much less enthusiastic to discuss the article content, which in both of his statements so far has been disregarded entirely.

The use–mention distinction is totally irrelevant to the dispute at hand,

Comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

and Mzajac had already admitted that he didn't look at my edits before expressing his disapproval of them. None of my proposed (or past) edits ever used the term “Little Russian”. The second content issue relates to the passage that Rsk6400 recently added into the Ukrainian language article, claiming that it is "necessary context" and a precondition for being able to mention the term "Little Russian language". Mzajac seems to agree that the passage on autonomy in the 17th century isn't directly relevant to the subject of the article, which is about the language and not about the nation; but I don't oppose addition of such a passage, so long as it isn't phrased misleadingly. My proposed phrasing avoids any kind of comparison between West and East Ukraine, thereby keeping any national point of view out of the article.

--Crash48 (talk) 23:24, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator (Ukrainian language)

Let's start over. First, read DRN Rule D again. Rule D4 says, "Comment on content, not contributors". It then says, "Discuss edits, not editors". These two instructions are the same, and are repeated because they need repeating. Second, read the ArbCom ruling, as amended, on Eastern Europe. The contentious topics procedure is in place largely to control battleground editing about areas that are or have been real battlegrounds, and too much blood is being shed in Ukraine. Disruptive editing may be dealt with summarily at Arbitration Enforcement. Also, read the boomerang essay before asking the moderator to fail the moderated discussion. If the moderated discussion is failed, the next stop will probably be WP:ANI or Arbitration Enforcement. Try to avoid those conduct forums. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:40, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Third, there appear to be two content issues. The first has to do with the term "Little Russian". The second has to do with the subsection "Under Lithuania/Poland, Muscovy/Russia and Austria-Hungary". We will discuss them separately, commenting on content, not contributors. I am neutral, but I will be active in trying to implement neutral point of view, which is the second pillar of Wikipedia.

Are we in agreement that the term "Little Russian" should be mentioned, but that it should also be noted that the term is considered pejorative, at least in modern times? Since the purpose of dispute resolution is to improve the encyclopedia, state exactly where you want to change what the article says, or what you want to leave the same that another editor wants to change. Just tell what if anything you want to change in the article.

There are clearly two viewpoints about the history of the Ukrainian language in Eastern Ukraine and Western Ukraine, because there are two viewpoints on the history of Ukraine. There are two ways to deal with the conflicting points of view. The two options do not include selecting either of the two viewpoints. We should not make any statements comparing the autonomy of cultural development in the voice of Wikipedia. Either we can state that there are at least two viewpoints on the history of the Ukrainian language, and present both viewpoints as viewpoints, or we can cut down the Ukrainian history to a minimum to state only that the language developed with different influences in the two parts of the country.

What changes if any do the editors want to make concerning the phrase "Little Russian"? Which approach should be used concerning the disputed history subsection? Are there any other article content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:40, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Third statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

The term "Little Russian" became pejorative in the 20th century. We may mention that it is currently considered pejorative, but then we must also clarify that it was not considered pejorative at the time. There is no need to detail the reasons why the term became pejorative.

By way of example, the original name of And Then There Were None came to be seen as offensive in modern times; but nevertheless, the name features prominently in the article, appearing in bold in the lead paragraph, on the infobox cover, etc. The article includes a timeline of the name change, but does not explain any of the reasons why the original name became offensive, nor any description whatsoever of the African-American history.

This is exactly the approach I propose for the Ukrainian language article too. The suggestion that the history of Russian imperialism must be recounted in any article that mentions the term "Little Russian" is ridiculous and WP:UNDUE.

Comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:11, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
@Mzajac: It's so ironic that you ask me to "respond to the moderator and write about the subject" after you ignored all of the moderator's questions yourself, and rambled on other topics... --

Crash48 (talk) 06:12, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Fourth statement by possible moderator (Ukrainian language)

Comment on content, not contributors.

Read Be Specific at DRN. This applies in particular to the phrase "Little Russian". Exactly what does each editor want the article to say about "Little Russian", and where? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:11, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Please state what approach each editor wants to take with respect to the history section. Do you want to expand it to present different national points of view, or to trim it down to a minimum, or do you have a different proposal that maintains neutral point of view?

Fourth statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

The moderator has no interest in trying to restore a stable version or status quo version of the article, and so is not interested in a chronology. The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the article going forward. A chronology is of no interest, and we will not be trying to restore the status quo. Either answer the questions, or withdraw from the mediation. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:42, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Robert McClenon, it seems to me that there is a mistake. I think that you didn't notice that Crash48 made their problematic edit[16] more than 24 hours after they pledged to follow the rules, not (as you put it in your 2nd statement) "so soon after I provided the rules". The edit that was done soon after you provided the rules, was mine. And I only reverted to status quo. Also, I didn't comment on contributors, I asked a procedural question, in good faith. I don't see a reason to advise me to read the boomerang text. Finally, I didn't ask you to fail this mediation, but I asked you how to deal with the situation. As I see it, a possible continuation of this mediation demands that we return to status quo at the article. To avoid further confusion, here's the chronology of relevant edits: 10:35, 22 November 2023 Crash48 starts this thread 22:20, 24 November 2023 (with a minor correction at 22:25, 24 November 2023) Crash48 changes Ukrainian language. 23:21, 24 November 2023 Robert McClenon makes the "Zeroth statement by possible moderator" 09:12, 25 November 2023‎ I revert to status quo at Ukrainian language 09:04, 28 November 2023 I pledge to follow the rules (0th statement) 16:58, 28 November 2023 Crash48 makes the same pledge 17:57, 29 November 2023‎ Crash48 makes the edit that I consider problematic. Rsk6400 (talk) 08:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC) The edit I want included in the article is [17] with the following statement added after ...Ivan Vahylevych referred to his language as Little Russian: for practical reasons, as this term was more familiar to his intended readers.[18] The added statement addresses two issues raised earlier at this DR. First, it confirms, based on a secondary RS, that Little Russian is the established rendition of małoruski into English, whereas *Little Ruthenia(n) is not a thing. Additionally, it disproves the unsourced claim that the term Little Russian was imposed on Ukrainian authors, or their publishers, by the Russian authorities. --Crash48 (talk) 11:11, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Brock 1972, quoted fully enough to demonstrate Brock’s translation of terms. Of course, ruski does not mean “Russian”:

At the outset of the unpublished treatise he explained, more fully than at any earlier date, the reasons for his using an unfamiliar term to define his native tongue. “I have called the language South Ruthenian,” he wrote, “instead of the more usual Little Russian (małoruski) or Ruthenian (ruski) . . . in order to avoid all misunderstanding; for the adjective Little Russian is too narrow, proper only to [Russian] Ukraine,’ whereas “Ruthenian” alone, although it might be convenient to employ the word by itself in Latin or German, appeared to him to be inappropriate in a Slavonic tongue. His temporary reversion in his published grammar of 1845 to the term “Little Russian” appears to have been dictated by practical considerations — its greater familiarity to his readers who might be put off, needlessly, by the less familiar usage.

The paper was published in an anthology, Nationbuilding and the Politics of Nationalism: Essays on Austrian Galicia,[19] where the index on p 333 actually lists it as “Little Ruthenian”/“Little Russian”, indicating that these are treated as synonyms. As I noted above, the more-specific term is also used in the Encyclopedia of Ukraine entry on Vahylevych written by Roman Senkus and in its internet version.[20]

Note that scholarship in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries often treated Ruthenian and Ukrainian as a variety of Russian, for example calling the Old East Slavic language “Old Russian.” This is no longer the case.

Anyway, sorry I don’t have the time to properly respond to the moderator’s questions. I am very busy in RL for the next week, but will monitor, and respond better if and when I can. —Michael Z. 20:14, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Fifth statement by moderator (Ukrainian language)

There have been mistakes. My mistake may have been not making it sufficiently clear that I am not trying to determine what is the stable version or status quo version of the article. The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the article going forward, and I do not spend time on determining what previous changes were made when.

The mistakes by the editors include not addressing my questions about changes to article content. The mistakes by the editors also include continuing to complain about the other editor. I said to comment on content, not contributors; and I am not planning to try to determine what was the stable version.

If either editor thinks that it is important to restore a status quo version, or is not interested in following my rules (and I decide how to apply my rules), they can withdraw from moderated discussion, and I will fail moderated discussion, and I will recommend that someone report at least one of the editors to Arbitration Enforcement. You have been notified that this discussion is about a contentious topic, and that special procedures can be used. I don't think that either of you should want to go to Arbitration Enforcement. It will almost certainly result in some sanctions on someone, and then you won't have moderated discussion to try to resolve the content dispute.

So: Exactly what does each editor want the article to say about "Little Russian", and where?

Please state what approach each editor wants to take with respect to the history section.

Fifth statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

Regarding the name “Little Russian,” this comprehensive article on the language should explain all of the names applied to the subject, throughout its history, and their historical, geographical, political, and chronological context, and their connotations. And in different languages, including English, and modern and historical Ukrainian as well as names that were significant in many cases in Polish, Russian, Latin, and Greek languages. It can refer to them in the course of the “History” section, but there are so many historical and current names that it may be helpful to have a “Names” section to sort out the important ones.

It should make assertions referring to statements in RS, not implying them using examples.

It ultimately will need to have more nuance and detail than “‘LR’ is pejorative today but was not in the nineteenth century,” because this is a severe oversimplification. For one thing, the naming of the language is not just black and white, but a process that has continued throughout its history and across Ukraine and the world. This comprehensive article about the language also will need to refer to the many different original names that are ambiguously translated with more precision than has been deemed sufficient in some other contexts like broad history books or narrower articles. For example English “Little Russian” has been used to refer to Ukrainian/Rusyn “maloruskyi iazyk” which existed and is also called Little Ruthenian,[21] and also to “malorossiiska mova” which is not. For example, “Little Russia” in the Medieval and Early Modern periods (Mala(ia) Rus)was a completely different name from “Little Russia” in the imperial period (Malorossiia) or today.

For example, referring to sources, the above-mentioned article Boeck 2004[22] has a lot of important factual info, but while some of Brock’s opinions are important they are not academic consensus; see, for example, the direct critique of Boeck in Kravchenko 2022, The Ukrainian-Russian borderland: history versus geography, (p 40)and what it says about the chronology of the change in connotation (p 46). —Michael Z. 01:11, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

My fourth statement specified exactly what I want the article to say about "Little Russian", and where. It did not comment on any contributors, and I don't understand why it needed to be hatted.

My first statement specified my suggestion with respect to the history section. My second statement additionally clarified that my proposed phrasing avoids any kind of comparison between West and East Ukraine, thereby keeping any national point of view out of the article. This was not a comment on any contributors, and I don't understand why it needed to be hatted too. --Crash48 (talk) 09:40, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the statement that Vahylevych’s work <..> title is Grammatyka Jȩzyka Małoruskiego w Galicii (Polish) <...> meaning “of Little Ruthenia” or “of Little Rus,” and definitely not “of Little Russia” (which would be “Małorosyjskiego” or “Malorosiĭsʹkoho”), I want also to refer to the dictionary by Kosciuszko Foundation (New York, 1961) translating Little Russia as Małoruś, and Little Russian as Małorusin, małoruski, and not even listing Małorosja or małorosyjski as options. The assertion of a difference in meaning or connotation between these forms is unsourced OR. Between the two synonyms Little Russian and Little Ruthenian, the former is used orders of magnitude more frequently in English-language sources. WP:ESTABLISHED states that we should use the established English terminology, no matter what name is used by non-English sources. --Crash48 (talk) 15:35, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Anything that is identified as important by secondary RS focussing on the history of Ukrainian language (or Ukraine) should be included. Primary sources should not be used here. The name LR was used by the imperial centre (i.e. Russia) in the context of Ukraine being a Russian colony in all but the name. This should be said in the part of the section covering the language history under Russian rule during the 18th and 19th centuries. For Ukrainian under Polish and (after 1772) Austrian rule the only thing important to me is that we stick to secondary sources. Rsk6400 (talk) 19:09, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Yola language

Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Treetoes023 on 03:07, 1 December 2023 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Yola language (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Treetoes023 (talk · contribs) Moling Luachra (talk · contribs) Galloglach21 (talk · contribs) Dispute overview The users Moling Luacha and Galloglach21 changed the extinction date of Yola in the infobox from 1998 (the death of Jack Devereux) to the late 1800s, their reason being Jack Devereux was not the last native speaker. They have not provided any source to support this claim, and the sources they are using to support the claim that Yola died out in the late 1800s do not actually state this directly (making it original research). How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Yola language#Jack Devereux 'last native speaker' How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? You can explain to these users why their sources don't support their extinction date claim and that they cannot refute a claim without providing a reliable source. Summary of dispute by Moling Luachra Galloglach has summarised this dispute very well. There is no original research here and the only backing provided for Jack Devereux being a native speaker is an offhand comment from a newspaper article. User treetoes believes this is sufficient and wants a source to explicitly refute this, otherwise it must be true but that's clearly a logical fallacy. User treetoes does not seem to understand what a source is, how research works and the description given above is highly deceptive. As Galloglach said, a small number of users have continued to try editing the Yola page to display misleading information and are not interested in sourcing it so I think some kind of lock should be put on. There is no reputable academic source that states Devereux was native. Everything scholarly suggests he collected songs from Yola and that's it. As for the language going extinct in the late 19th century, there's two good academic sources on it. The first is The English Language in Ireland by Hogan, originally published in 1927, so closer to the time the language would've been spoken. On page 44 of the edition on Archive.org, in a section titled "The Dialect of Forth and Bargy", he explicitly states "In the baronies of Forth and Bargy (Especially in Forth), an area of about 200 sq. miles lying south of Wexford town, isolated by the sea and a long mountain, there lived on until the last century another descendant of the old Kildare English". This was written in 1927, much closer to the date when the language would have been spoken, and it clearly states it's gone. It was a scholarly enough source to be quoted by Raymond Hickey in his Irish English: History and present-day forms. The other source is Hickey himself, a scholar who has published widely on the history of Hiberno-English (as well as the above book, he has another one specific to Irish in Dublin). This time, it comes from his book The Oxford Handbook of Irish English. On page 48, it explicitly states "After a period of decline, it was replaced entirely in the early nineteenth century by general Irish English of the region." That's two reputable academic sources (of which a random, unsourced Irish Independent Article is neither) stating that the language was dead in the late 19th century, at the latest, and certainly didn't make it until the 20th. Unless you're going to tell me one of the foremost scholars on the topic of the history of English in Ireland (and specifically in Leinster!) is wrong (and he was certainly aware of Devereux) and a scholarly source from much closer to the actual time period where it should have still been spoken if Devereux was the last is also wrong, then you're going to need good evidence; not just a newspaper article. Moling Luachra (talk) 16:33, 1 December 2023 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Galloglach21 Firstly, I think the original summary of events is highly inaccurate to what the actual issue is. That being; since at least 2016 a small cadre of users has been adamant on editing the page for the Yola language to change the date of extinction to 1998 with the death of a local mummer caroler called Jack Devereux as well as to include revival information. My opposition to this is based on factuality and notoriety. The source used to justify this edit to the date of extinction is an article written in 2020 by the Irish independent (found here: https://m.independent.ie/regionals/wexford/news/fascinating-book-on-yola-dialect-of-forth-and-bargy/39143296.html) which mentions the claim in a single line, "Jack Devereux of Kilmore Quay, who died in 1998, is said to have been the last speaker of Yola.". This piece of information is completely unsourced in the article and in my opinion is not a well sourced edit as we don't know who said it, why they said it, or what source they might have had themselves to claim such. It is a fully spurious claim. In response to this I replaced this edit with an extinction date of the late 19th century, for which I provided 2 sources (source 1: https://www.jstor.org/stable/25513442?typeAccessWorkflow=login , source 2: https://www.jstor.org/stable/25502621). The first source was published the 31st of December 1927 and states on its first page the following; "Mr Hore, one of the last speakers of the dialect, died in 1879". Granted this is quite short, but firstly it's written by a prominent researcher of Yola, Kathleen Browne, who is mentioned by name in the wikipedia page and whose work forms the basis for other information included in the page. However, I also have my second source, which is seemingly written by the same Mr Hore mentioned in the 1st source as a speaker of Yola during what appear to have been it's last generations. This 2nd source is dated to 1862 and states in Hore's words; "...for if the use of this old tongue dies out as fast for the next five-and-twenty years as it has for the same bygone period, it will be utterly extinct and forgotten before the present century shall have closed". As you can see this is not original research. I have merely used sources available to me that have provided information in other parts of the article (the letter to the earl of Mulgrave comes from Hore's article). However it would seem Treetoes023 does not like this and would like a direct source refuting his specific claim. This is obviously quite absurd due to the issue of this being a sporadic source, no academic has debunked this claim simply because it's not notable enough to, making it a logical fallacy, specifically proving a negative. He places the burden on others to disprove his sourcing specifically rather than defending it with additional information himself. I think an ideal solution going forward would be to lock or restrict who can edit the Yola language page so as to end the brigade of poor quality edits against it. Any further information can be found in the talk page for Yola as well as in the justification for my own personal edits to the page. If you would like any additional sourcing for my claims I can provide it. Thank you and apologies for the length. Yola language discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Zeroth statement by moderator (Yola) Please read DRN Rule A and state whether you agree to follow it. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. The purpose of this discussion is to improve the article. If you wish to discuss content here (and this noticeboard is for discussing content issues), please state briefly what part of the article you want changed, or what part of the article you want left the same that another editor wants to change. If you and another editor disagree about the reliability of a source, please identify the source, and we will ask the Reliable Source Noticeboard about it. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:05, 2 December 2023 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (Yola) @Robert McClenon: I agree to follow DRN Rule A. I want the article to be reverted to this revision until a consensus forms on the reliability of Jack Devereux being the last native speaker of Yola with reliable sources supporting or refuting the claim. – Treetoes023 (talk) 17:05, 2 December 2023 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (Yola) @Robert McClenon: I agree to follow DRN Rule A. I want the article to not be reverted and for it to remain in its current form with the extinction date of circa late 19th century. There are currently four references for the 19th century extinction date including two reputable academic sources (of which a random, unsourced Irish Independent Article is neither) and not a single decent source describing Jack Devereux as a native speaker. Unless contemporary writers and modern scholars about the Forth and Bargy dialect (Yola) are all incorrect (including Raymond Hickey, the current leading researcher of the English language in Ireland), then there is no reason for the page to show this spurious date of 1998.Moling Luachra (talk) 21:05, 2 December 2023 (UTC) @Moling Luachra: I have a reliable source, it's just the book is not available at the moment for me to find the page number. The British Library's website has been down since October 28, 2023, over a whole month, and until it's back up I can't get the book to find the page number. The Irish Independent article cites the book anyway, so I don't see why it can't be used. – Treetoes023 (talk) 23:18, 2 December 2023 (UTC) The Irish Independent article does not cite the book, the article is describing the book and the young man who published it and this spurious date comes from a bit of context added for readers. You might want to read the article here: https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wexford/news/fascinating-book-on-yola-dialect-of-forth-and-bargy/39143296.html The quote is Elsewhere, Jack Devereux of Kilmore Quay, who died in 1998, is said to have been the last speaker of Yola. Jack was a member of the Kilmore Carol singers - some of the carols are sung in the Yola dialect. The source the article provides is that 'some people said it', insufficient. And where is the word 'native speaker' mentioned? Even if this article were to be taken as a good source (which it is not) and even if this amateur glossary did state that Jack Devereux was a native speaker and the last one, does that mean that the reputable academic sources cited elsewhere are incorrect? Again, unless you're going to tell me one of the foremost scholars on the topic of the history of English in Ireland (and specifically in Leinster!) is wrong (and he was certainly aware of Devereux) and a scholarly source from much closer to the actual time period where it should have still been spoken if Devereux was the last is also wrong, then you're going to need good evidence; not just a sourceless newspaper article or an amateur glossary. Moling Luachra (talk) 23:43, 2 December 2023 (UTC) First statement by moderator (Yola) One point of disagreement is the date that the language became extinct. Will each editor please make a one-paragraph statement on when they think that the language became extinct? Are there any other content issues about the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 07:03, 3 December 2023 (UTC) There is no doubt that the language was functionally extinct by the late 19th century. This is evidenced by contemporary writers commenting on the decline during this period (Browne 1921 and Hore 1862) as well as academic research concretely describing the dialect as having died out during the 19th century with only rememberers and fragments remaining by the 20th century (Hogan 1927 and Hickey 2023). This offhand comment in the Irish Times article describing Jack Devereux as 'the last speaker' is clearly a misunderstanding as although Devereux was interested in Yola and collected Yola words, phrases and songs in his life, he was not a native speaker and by no means was he the last person with knowledge of Yola language. All reputable sources describe Jack as such (Ó Muirithe 1996 and Hickey 2023). It is certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Yola language was functionally extinct around the late 19th century and an offhand comment in an unreputable non-academic source is not nearly enough to refute this. Furthermore, the article does not cite any source for this claim of 1998 extinction other than 'it is said' and even if this claim is repeated in the amateur glossary (Santschi-Cooney 2019), that would not explain the mountain of evidence against it. I see no reason for the page to be reverted nor any reason that this random article be taken seriously. Moling Luachra (talk) 11:51, 3 December 2023 (UTC) @Moling Luachra: I withdraw my support for Jack Devereux being the last native speaker, now that reliable sources that directly refute Jack Devereux being a native speaker have been provided, I have no reason to advocate for the source stating Jack Devereux was the last native speaker. – Treetoes023 (talk) 17:58, 3 December 2023 (UTC) First statements by editors (Yola) Second statement by moderator (Yola) It appears that there is now agreement that the language became functionally extinct by the late nineteenth century. If that is correct, we can close this case as resolved. Is it correct that we are now in agreement? Robert McClenon (talk) 00:51, 4 December 2023 (UTC) Yes. – Treetoes023 (talk) 00:53, 4 December 2023 (UTC) Second statements by editors (Yola) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Battle of Hussainiwala

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by VirtualVagabond on 16:33, 2 December 2023 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Battle of Hussainiwala (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved VirtualVagabond (talk · contribs) Aman.kumar.goel (talk · contribs) MrGreen1163 (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Dispute if the Battle of Hussainiwala should be classified as a Pakistani victory when the Pakistan army successfully captured it during the 1971 war. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk: Battle of Hussainiwala How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? By hearing both sides, and observing every single point and context. Then to hopefully solve the dispute. Summary of dispute by Aman Kumar Goel Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by MrGreen1163 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Battle of Hussainiwala discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not notified the other editors on their user talk pages. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:34, 3 December 2023 (UTC) Horst Wessel – General close. See comments for reasoning. Filed by 2002:932F:F0CE:0:0:0:932F:F0CE on 02:35, 5 December 2023 (UTC). Have you discussed this on a talk page? Closed discussion