Talk:Kamarupi Prakrit

scope

Two topics mixed up here: modern dial. of Assamese, and ancestral languages of Assam-Bengali. Needs to be one or the other. — kwami (talk) 07:37, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

The language spoken in Kamarupa known as Kamrupi which remnants are spoken by Kamrupi speakers of today, both named Kamrupi (apbhramsa i.e language with no formal grammar). Due to its ancientness, it is not a dialect but remnant of an ancient language. Other forms of Assamese like eastern Assamese is form come out as result of standardization by American Christian missionaries to translate their religious books which (language) later on Sankritised. The word Assamese is word applied to language or group of langauges by British which earlier known as Kamrupi.

Thanks !

bbhagawati (talk) 09:33, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree with User:Kwamikagami. To clarify matters, I have created the page Kamrupi dialect specifically for the dialect. and moved this page to Kamrupi Prakrit (maybe it should be "Kamarupi Prakrit"). User:Bhaskarbhagawati is wrong. The Kamarupi Prakrit did not just evolve into the Assamese language, but have given rise to not just the Assamese language but also to North Bengali dialects, according to Suniti Kumar Chatterjee and others. Chaipau (talk) 11:22, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree with User:Kwamikagami. To clarify matters, I have created the page Kamrupi dialect specifically for the dialect. and moved this page to Kamrupi Prakrit (maybe it should be "Kamarupi Prakrit").User:Bhaskarbhagawati is wrong. The Kamarupi Prakrit did not just evolve into the Assamese language, but have given rise to not just the Assamese language but also to North Bengali dialects, according to Suniti Kumar Chatterjee and others. Here User:Kwamikagami expressed his confusion although he is not into the subject. In the page Kamrupi dialect, it is shown as dialect of Assamese whereas Bengali Kamrupi and Assamese Kamrupi makes dialect continuum. Sanskrit Kamarupi or Assamese Kamrupi is separated from Magadhi Prakrit as Kamrupi not as Kamrupi Prakrit and where in sentence i mentioned that North bengali is not Kamrupi remanent, not mentioning is not denial.

bbhagawati (talk) 13:15, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

We follow sources. Provide a reliable source for your POV, and we won't have a problem. — kwami (talk) 16:42, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

From the book "Rāmāyaṇa in the North-East India:proceedings of the National Seminar organised by Bharatiya Itihāsa sankalana Samiti" by authors Sujit K. Ghosh, Sujit K. Ghosh published in year 2003 following lines are picked :

Old and foremost one who translated this epic from Sanskrit (Original Vdlmiki Rdmayana) language to old Kamrupi language.

From the book "A survey of Maithili literature" by author Radhakrishna Choudhary published in year 1976 following lines are picked :

The language of the Buddhist Dohas (Charyapada) is described as belonging to the mixed Maithili — Kamrupi language.

Above lines shows that Kamrupi is an full fledged ancient language.

From the book "Contagious Couplings: Transmission of Expressives in Yiddish Echo Phrases" by author Mark R. V. Southern published in year 2005 following lines are picked :

(i) the numerically dominant Indo-Aryan languages: Northwestern (or "Central"): Urdu-Hindi, Rajasthani, Panjabi, Dogri, Nepali; Southwestern: Marathi, Gujarati, Dakhani/Dakkh(i)ni, Sinhala; Eastern: Bangla/Bengali, Oriya, Bhojpuri, Assamese, Kamrupi, Maithili."

In above line Kamrupi is shown as modern Indo Aryan language separate from Assamese.

From the book "Linguistic situation in North-East India" by author Mrinal Miri published in year 2003 following lines are picked :

Scholars have shown that it is rather through the western Assam dialects that the development of modern Assamese has to be traced.

Above lines shows that Kamrupi is not a dialect but source of Assamese.

From the book "Indian literature: Volume 30" by Sāhitya Akademi published in year 1987 following lines are picked :

Ambikagiri set a new trend in Assamese by his abundant use of Kamrupi language in his writings.

Above line shows that modern Kamrupi is an language not dialect.

So above mentioned sources shows that modern Kamrupi is remanent of ancient Kamrupi. We may reinstate the article in one single page.

Thanks !

bbhagawati (talk) 10:21, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

User:Bhaskarbhagawati has cherry picked the name "Kamrupi" mentioned in different assorted references and is claiming that Kamrupi is a language. Banikanta Kakati (1941) in Assamese: It's Formation and Development calls the language Assamese, and Kamrupi a dialect. Wikipedia is not the place to establish that Kamrupi is a language. Chaipau (talk) 11:41, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

User:Bhaskarbhagawati has cherry picked the name "Kamrupi" mentioned in different assorted references and is claiming that Kamrupi is a language. Banikanta Kakati (1941) in Assamese: It's Formation and Development calls the language Assamese, and Kamrupi a dialect. Wikipedia is not the place to establish that Kamrupi is a language.

Above sentence shows disregard for sources. It is in article itself mentioned that though Kamrupi is remanent of ancient language and source of or influenced various Eastern Indo Aryans languages is wrongly given as dialect status of Assamese and Bengali due to fact that British clubbed the the prevalent Indo Aryan Languages or forms of Brahmaputra valley as Assamese so in case of Bengali. Kamrupi is much older than modern Eastern Indo Aryan languages like Bengali, Oriya and Eastern Assamese and is placed alongside middle Eastern Indo Aryan languages like Radhi, Vanga and Varendari.

Thanks !

bbhagawati (talk) 13:03, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

No, the above statement does not show disregard for source. What it does is show deference to the accepted norms of reliable sources in Wikipedia. Not all sources are considered equal. This Wikipedia page is about the language that was used in Kamarupa kingdom during the Pakrit period. This article is not about dialects/languages/registers of the modern times, which have all developed in the post Kamarupa period.

Two things: "Language" is not capitalized in English. Therefore "Kamrupi Language" is an unacceptable title even if we decide that it should be called a language. I've salted it so that it can't be used any more.

Articles are on a specific topic. We fit titles to topics; we don't fit topics to titles. This is a basic convention of WP, and the whole reason we have dabs and redirects. I mean, there are many people named "India", but we don't put their bios in the India article!

— kwami (talk) 19:28, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

We need to choose what this article is about. The sources above concern two separate things: the prakrit, and the modern variety. In general, our prakrit articles are named "X Prakrit", so consistency would favour "Kamrupi Prakrit" for the medieval variety, and this ID is supported by e.g. the Journal of the Assam Research Society (2007) 38:183. As for the modern variety, Masica (1991) gives Kamrupi as a synonym for Western Assamese (that is, as an Assamese dialect, p 229), and refers to Upendranath Goswami (1970) A study on Kamrupi: a dialect of Assamese. ELL2 has, The main dialects of Bangladesh can be divided into four groups: ... Kamrupi (Rajbansi-Bahe) ... Additional northern dialects are the Kamrupi varieties in the Dinajpur, Rangpur, and Patgram-Kurigram-Nageswari regions. The Rajbansi variety is also found in the Darjeeling and Nepal regions, and there are claims that it is a separate speech form, like Assamese. Although it is influenced by Bangla grammar and vocabulary, it shows indications of Tibeto-Burman substrata. Your conclusions above seem to be due to misunderstanding of the texts. The argument that the development of Assamese is best traced through the western Assamese dialects does not mean that they are not dialects, for example, nor that they are the source of Assamese. And Ambikagiri using Kamrupi when writing Assamese suggests that Kamrupi is a dialect of Assamese. (The word "language" is ambiguous: the "language of Ambikagiri" would not be a separate language either.)

"Kamrupi language" would therefore not seem to be justified per WP:reliable sources, and would also be ambiguous, as it could be used for either the prakrit or the modern dialect. — kwami (talk) 22:46, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

We need to choose what this article is about. As i provided sources above that says Eastern Assamese develops from Western Assamese (Kamrupi). We have discussed earlier that when Kamrupi get separated from Magadhi Prakrit gives rise to Bengali and Eastern Assamese but eventually got dialect status of Assamese and Bengali though it is remanent of an ancient language. Sankrit cannot be the dialect of Pali. So this divided entire subject in two parts ancient and modern form i.e history and present. Any subject's history and present should be in a same article.

The sources above concern two separate things: the prakrit, and the modern variety. Does that means ancient Kamrupi vanished ? Kindly go through books of Suniti Chatterjee and others. They refered North Bengali alongwith Western Assamese as Kamrupi due to its common root.

In general, our prakrit articles are named "X Prakrit", so consistency would favour "Kamrupi Prakrit" for the medieval variety This not prakrit but an aprabhamsa separated from Magadhi Prakrit called Kamrupi.

The main dialects of Bangladesh can be divided into four groups: ... Kamrupi (Rajbansi-Bahe) ... Additional northern dialects are the Kamrupi varieties in the Dinajpur, Rangpur, and Patgram-Kurigram-Nageswari regions. The Rajbansi variety is also found in the Darjeeling and Nepal regions, and there are claims that it is a separate speech form, like Assamese. Although it is influenced by Bangla grammar and vocabulary, it shows indications of Tibeto-Burman substrata. Rajbanshi or Kamtapuri unofficially called Kamrupi due close interaction with Kamrup and Kamrupi.

The argument that the development of Assamese is best traced through the western Assamese dialects does not mean that they are not dialects, for example, nor that they are the source of Assamese. Does source can share same status as offspring. Is Proto Indo European language equals to English language or is a distant parent or is that a Germanic language.

And Ambikagiri using Kamrupi when writing Assamese suggests that Kamrupi is a dialect of Assamese. Please note in that line that Kmarupi described as language not dialect by the book of literary body. What this article and i like to say that when new word Assamese applied to prevalent Indo Aryan languages or forms, it clubbed it in same status making mother an sister of daughter. It is like making Sankrit a sister language of Hindi.

"Kamrupi language" would therefore not seem to be justified per WP:reliable sources, and would also be ambiguous, as it could be used for either the prakrit or the modern dialect. I mentioned above why it is not a dialect though have dialect status and born out of Prakrit as Apabhramsa. I think we put things here on the basis of relevant sources even if it deviates from popular beliefs.

So it should not either Prakrit or Dialect but simply as Kamrupi which it was few days back and became unmovable, so i have to rename it as Kamrupi language. Most importantly large data is deleted which should be restored and i can put on inline citations for every line. So i hope relevant sources will asked before deleting data of such important nature.

Thanks !

bbhagawati (talk) 07:58, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

The article was incoherent. Some seemed to be about the modern variety, some about the prakrit. I attempted to split the article accordingly. You deleted the dialect article, so yes, that info has been deleted. (It was also unsourced, and so could be deleted at any time.)

You have not pointed out anything that makes sense to me, nor that seems to be supported by sources. — kwami (talk) 08:57, 15 July 2012 (UTC)