Talk:Cossack Hetmanate

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BetacommandBot (talk) 13:49, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Automatic Translation?

What on earth do the following two paragraphs mean:

After many successful military campaigns against the Poles,  Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky made a triumphant entry into Kiev 
on Christmas 1648 where he was hailed liberator of the people from Polish captivity. 
In February 1649, during negotiations in Pereiaslav with a Polish delegation, Khmelnytsky had made it clear to the Poles 
that he was the sole autocrat of Rus', positioning himself as the whole leader of all Ukraine.

There the state-building process began where Khmelnytsky's statesmanship was demonstrated in all areas of state-building: 
in the military, administration, finance, economics, and culture. With political acumen, he invested the Zaporozhian Host 
under the leadership of its hetman with supreme power in the new Ukrainian state, and he unified all the spheres of 
Ukrainian society under his authority. This would involve building a government system and a developed military and civilian
administrators out of Cossack officers and Ukrainian nobles, as well as the establishment of an elite within the Cossack 
Hetman state.

There - where? Referring to what? What is Hetman that repeatedly occurs here. Is that his first name or maybe his nationality? Somehow, "liberator of the people from Polish captivity", doesn't sound good, but my English is not good enough to come up with a better sentence. "... the sole autocrat of Rus'"? "positioning himself as the whole leader"?

Granted, on second read, I do understand that Hetman is a nationality, but make that clear somewhere. (All wiki references to Hetman return to this article (The Cossack Hetmanate). Actually I'm not sure. Is it?

How about something like: ..."clearly stated to the Polish delegation, which he met on Christmas 1648, that he saw himself as the sole ruler of the Ukrainian state. He then proceeded to establish his rule, by setting about changes in all fields of government: In the military, in administration, finance, economy and culture. He cleverly supported Hetman(...points to nationality of Hetmans) rule of the Zaporozhian Host, a region in central Ukrain. This bought his rule broad acceptance throughout all the diverse regions and nationalities in the Ukrain. He established a new government system, which included the creation of a new upper class of administrators and military commanders, from his Cossack army, and from the historic local Ukranian nobility. -- Thanks! פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 23:21, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh boy! OK, I read a bit more, and now understand what a Hetman is. IMHO there should be a wikilink to at least the first and probably to all three references in the article. The article is still unreadable, and seems to be an automatic translation. Anyway, a great reference (for whoever decides to redo these pages) is this book: Ukrain A History by Orest Sutelny. It seems written well. פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 00:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Guess what! In Bohdan Khmelnitsky it says:

At Christmas 1648, Khmelnytsky made a triumphant entry into Kyiv, where he was hailed as "the Moses, savior, redeemer, 
and liberator of the people from Polish captivity ... the illustrious ruler of Rus." In February 1649, during negotiations in
Pereiaslav with a Polish delegation headed by senator Adam Kysil, Khmelnytsky declared that he was 
  "the sole autocrat of Rus" and that he had "enough power in Ukraine, Podilia, and Volhynia ... 
in his land and principality stretching as far as Lviv, Chełm, and Halych."[9] It became clear to the Polish envoys that
Khmelnytsky had positioned himself not just as a leader of the Zaporozhian Cossacks, but of Ukraine, and stated his claims 
to the heritage of the Rus. A Vilnius panegyric in Khmelnytsky's honor (1650–1651) explained it this way: 
  "While in Poland it is King Jan II Casimir Vasa, in Rus it is Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky."[10]

After the period of initial military successes the state-building process began. His leadership was demonstrated in all areas 
of state-building: in the military, administration, finance, economics, and culture. With political acumen he made the Zaporozhian
Host under the leadership of its hetman the supreme power in the new Ukrainian state, and unified all the spheres of Ukrainian 
society under his authority. Khmelnytsky built a new government system and developed military and civilian administration.

This whole subpage is translated there into good and normal English!

פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 03:01, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

something is broken

"Herb Viyska Zaporozkogo (Alex K).svg →"--FifthCylon (talk) 07:17, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

successor state arrow is broken

Could someone please fix that?--FifthCylon (talk) 15:12, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

File:Ukrainian Cossack state Zaporizhian Host 1649 1653.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Antihistoric statements

Excuse me, but as a history student I can not accept this article because of many antihistoric statements about "State creation" and "State existing". It's only modern modern ukrainian vission, links are from pro-ukrainian internet pages. Look discussion in Russian Talk about this article. It must be fully reviewed and fixed according professional historians statements, who analyzed the history of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Chmelnicki Uprising. Now thsi artical seems as falsification of history. --86.100.205.18 (talk) 14:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Rename article suggestion

Per Magocsi (citation added to intro), "The name Hetmanate, especially in Russian sources, referred to Cossack regiments in Left-bank Ukraine that were under of the authority of Moscow's hetman, from 1667 onward. This excludes both Zaporizha and Sloboda Ukraine" (paraphrasing). In his work, he refers to the state as the Cossack state, since it covers all attempted unified cossack statehood (and also that the cossack state only existed in the Hetmanate from 1711 onward). He says the official names were Zaporizhian Host and Army of Zaporizha.

Since this article almost entirely relies on Magocsi's work, we should use the name he suggests. As it stands, 'Hetmanate' is like calling the UK just Scotland.--Львівське (говорити) 08:53, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Wrong. What an ignorant claim. The entire state, not only a small part of it, is referred to as "Hetamante" (Гетьманщина) by multiple historians other than your source. For example, Mytsyk, Bazhan, and Vlasov refer to it as "Hetmanshchyna (Гетьманщина) here: [1]. Lev Okinshevych, Arkadii Zhukovsky from the Encyclopedia of Ukraine call the country "Hetman State": [2]. Oleksandr Saltovskiy refer to it as "Ukrainian state-Hetmanate" (Українська держава-Гетьманщина), "Hetman state" (гетьманська держава), and simply Hetmanate (Гетьманщина). He also says that the Hetmanate covered both sides of the Dnipro from Khmelnytsky until Doroshenko. [3] Valeriy Smoliy call the country "Ukrainian Cossack State", "Zaporizhyan Host", and "Hetmanate" (pg 14) here: [4]. I can still easily find more sources. --BoguSlav 07:58, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Little Russia etc.

The Hetmanate is not (was not) called "Little Russia". Little Russia and the Hetmanate are two separate historical concepts. The Hetman of the Ukrainian Cossacks didn't call himself the "Hetman of Little Russia". If you think they are the same thing, perhaps you should propose a merge between both articles, but you can't simply equate the Hetmanate to Little Russia because of your political opinions. These edits be only explained as Russification because they do not enhance the content of the article.--BoguSlav 00:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. This concept is ludicrous. This is some sort of bizarre attempt to conflate the history of the Hetmanate with the politics of the Russian Empire after the razing of Sich, hence turning the Hetmanate into some sort of offshoot of Little Russia. Information for the content of the article is being turned into a strange amalgam of the later Russian Empire and the history of the Hetmanate. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:06, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

It is typical ignorance in the history. The term Little Russia was used by Ivan Vyshenskyi and Archimandrite Zacharius Kopystensky. This term was an official name of Hetmanate in briefs of Bohdan Hmelnytsky. That's why existed Little Russia Prikase and then Collegium of Little Russia. If you don't know about it, how could you speak about the History of Hetmanate at all? Ушкуйник (talk) 00:07, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Of course the term "Little Russia" was known and possibly used by Ukrainians from the Hetmanate. That doesn't make the Hetmanate and "Little Russia" to be the same thing! That's why we have two separate articles here on wikipedia. But above all, how about a WP:SOURCE for all your claims?--BoguSlav 04:43, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Dear all (BoguSlav, and Iryna Harpy), firstly, there is a difference between Hetmanate, Zaporizhian Host and Little Russia. Hetmanate - is a historiographical term, you will not find this term in historical documents from 17. till 18. Century. The term was created to make clear the sense of Hetman's power. Zaporizhian Host and Little Russia are on the opposide side historical names of Hetmanate. Sure there is a difference between Hetmanate and Little Russia, because the term Little Russia means NOT ONLY Hetmanate, but also church Toponym (like Great Russia too) etc. But it means not, that you may ignore this name of Hetmanate just because there is a multiple-meaning of Little Russia, or even if you don't like this name of the territory of Dnieper-banks. It was an official name of Hetmanate in Tsardom of Russia and Russian Empire. The same history is with Zaporizhian Host - it means Hetmanate, but not only Hetmanate, because Zaporizhian Host not always submitted to Hetman.

Secondly, there is a historical difference between right-bank Hetmanate and left-bank Hetmanate. So it is just not correct to speak about Vassal status of Hetmanate only in context of Tsardom of Russia. After Treaty of Andrusovo right-bank Hetmanate existed as Vassal of Poland.

Thirdly, Ruthenian and Ukrainian language is not the same thing, another way we should come to conclusion, that Belarusian and Ukrainian is the same language too, but it is not true. They both - Belarusian and Ukrainian - have roots in Ruthenian language. So it is not correct to speak about official role of Ukrainian language in Hetmanate, it was Ruthenian language.

Best wishes, Ушкуйник (talk) 14:49, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

So - no reliable sources for all these claims?Faustian (talk) 17:40, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually, you just need to read about it the sources, which you have deleted, especially Paul Robert Magocsi and Яковенко Н. Нарис історії України з найдавніших часів до кінця ХVІІІ ст, if you can read in Ukrainian. I didn't know, that it is so new information, that Belarusian and Ukrainian languages have roots in Ruthenian. Maybe there is also some new information, that right-bank Hetmanate was under Poland and that Hetman post was abolished in Poland in 1686? Is it not clear, that Little Russian prikaz could exist only in case of using the term Little Russia as Synonym for Hetmanate? Also, it looks like you just don't have any arguments to protect your own position. Ушкуйник (talk) 00:53, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Still no reliable sources to back up changes to consensus version.Faustian (talk) 01:40, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Every time I go through your sources and your arguments for changing content, I keep coming back to the same conclusion, Ушкуйник: that you've been very busy on various articles using your own interpretation (known as original research) and cherry picking information to fit your own theories (known as WP:POV). Considering your specific interests, as is evidenced by your special contributions, I can only understand your presence on English Wikipedia to be as an SPA focussing on historical subject matter to contrive an All-Russian nation rendering of Eastern Slavic history. In fact, I checked it's German Wikipedia counterpart – "Dreieiniges russisches Volk" – out of interest, only to discover that you've been dabbling with that article only to have your additional content rejected (no one there is impressed with your 'left bank'/'right bank' arguments, either). What that adds up to is WP:NOTHERE. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:53, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Dear Iryna Harpy, actually, my remark in German Wikipedia was about Ivan Vyshenskyi and Archimandrite Zacharius Kopystensky, not about 'left bank'/'right bank' arguments, after that I have found this information in text. We can speak about All-Russian nation, but it doesn't have any matter in context of our discussion. You just try to ignore all arguments, to find some another subject of discussion. I would be appreciate, if you will speak in this discussion about the History of Hetmanate. Have you anything to say about it? Ушкуйник (talk) 14:23, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

And it is not "my" 'left bank'/'right bank' arguments. See: Left-bank Ukraine and Right-bank Ukraine. Ушкуйник (talk) 14:34, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Ушкуйник, your disruptive edits MUST STOP! Let's take a look at the version of the article you've been constantly reverting to. First of all, the title of the article (Cossack Hetmanate) should be bolded per WP:BOLDTITLE. "Hetmanate" is not the title of the article. Secondly, the note about the Russian definition of Hetmanate may either go in the "Etymology" Section or into the article called Hetmanate. This article is about the Cossack Hetmanate, the opening sentence should discuss the topic of the article, not go into tangents, per WP:LEDE.

Now for your Little Russia comparisons. They have NO BASIS. This source that you constantly use [5], calls it the Little Russian Hetmanate, NOT Little Russia. Same thing goes for section about the Name. There is NOT ONE mention of "Little Russia" in the Encyclopedia of Ukraine source. Another source from EoU, which you constantly remove [6] says "Muscovite sources it was called the Little-Russian state (Malorossiiskoe gosudarstvo). Again, NOT "Little Russia", but Little-Russian State.

Your edits are not backed up by ANY SOURCES. Even the sources that you constantly DO use, DO NOT support your claims. You are engaging in WP:ACTIVISM or WP:SPA, as Iryna has said. I think the next step would be some sort of request for WP:Probation or blocking. --BoguSlav 17:19, 26 December 2014 (UTC)