Wikipedia talk:Article titles

Parliamentary acts SIA or dab?

We seem a bit vague: "If several acts have the same short name, Foo Bar Act should either redirect to the most commonly-used act of the series if one exists (e.g., the Data Protection Acts) or either serve as a disambiguation page (e.g., Representation of the People Acts) or redirect to Foo Bar Acts (plural) which would serve as an article about the series of acts." Rich Farmbrough, 07:35, 27 August 2009 (UTC).

Just an unwise effort to express three options, all valid (as for other naming conflicts) with either/or.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:32, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Other specific conventions and guidelines

From the history of the article:

• 03:47, 30 August 2009 M (47,112 bytes) (→Other specific conventions: start of cleanup and turning this into a usable index)
• 04:34, 30 August 2009 Cygnis insignis m (47,145 bytes) (→Other specific conventions: Minor change to a large and untidy edit, which should be reviewed or reverted)
• 11:13, 30 August 2009 Philip Baird Shearer (→Other specific conventions: Make it clear that there are guidelines here as well as conventions) (rollback | undo)

user:M you made this change which reduced the size of the convention from (49,601 bytes) to (47,145 bytes). I agree with Cygnis insignis please explain the changes you have made here, not so much the re-arrangement, but any deletions or additions that you have made. --PBS (talk) 11:26, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

• 17:09, 30 August 2009 Cygnis insignis (talk | contribs) (49,601 bytes) (Reverted to revision 310774383 by Cosmic Latte; Revert unfinished edit by User:M.

The only deletion and addition was of the flora and fauna section. The flora and fauna guidelines are highly redundant - I merged these as per WP:PG, and moved the lead there. It seems that the only potential reasons for undoing substantial work are "Revert changes made without discussion" (this is absolutely not a valid reason), 'you didn't finish it' (ok, finish it yourself instead of reverting), a 'widowing' of discussion (which is incorrect), and unverified suspicions that something was removed (see diffs). I'll be continuing my cleanup - for now, I'll replace the lead into this policy, but if nobody can provide good reasons not to merge those two pages, I'll do that again.    M   19:47, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

It would have seemed to me that a perusal of the talk pages of those two articles would provide plenty of reasons why a merger would be controversial.--Curtis Clark (talk) 20:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

What are these reasons? The guidelines themselves would not be merged, they would reside on the same page as seen here. Both camps could then determine exactly where the conventions for flora and fauna differ - though a fair bit seems to be the same, in some cases seemingly copy-pasted over.    M   20:18, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Obviously you have not read the flora guideline talk pages! --PBS (talk) 21:28, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I have. Please don't say "oh, go spend a few hours reading those pages, the reason is in there somewhere". It's up to you to provide the reason, not up to me to go searching through WiP for it.    M   22:58, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

<-- I have reverted to the version by user:M

I have looked through the changes that user:M has made as of this edit and AFAICT they are acceptable. But before they are implemented I would like to see if there are any objections to them. user:M this is a project page, and before major changes are made you should check that the changes have consensus. Before you make any more changes please allow people to catch up with your proposed changes and agree to them. Now that flora and forna are back as they were, have you made any other changes to the page, other than reordering things? --PBS (talk) 21:25, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Aside from the reordering, no. I'll be checking this with an advanced diff after I get some more cleanup done. I'm unsure why it would be easier for people to catch up with changes if those changes are reverted - more likely, they will simply be ignored until implemented. (This waiting for a number of people to ratify a proposal and then the implementation of that proposal seems needlessly bureaucratic. People can easily catch up by looking at diffs, which is how things usually work.)    M   21:37, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

From my talk page

The policy on such changes is that while disagreement on the talk page should prevent further changes, a lack of agreement does not. Agreement is not required, and silence and the absence of reasoned objections implies consent. Do you have an objection to the changes? If so, please provide it on the talk page or in your edit summary. I hope that we agree that "you didn't get permission" is not a valid objection. If you have no objections, I'll resume cleanup shortly.    M   21:29, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

There is disagreement and you are making very big changes. Now you may only be rearanging the deck chairs, or you may be doing other things. One think is for sure, messing with flora was a mistake. Because the diffs are very large it is difficult to see what you have done, hence my question to you. As two editor reverted your edits, you have been asked some specific questions on this page, which you have stated has not made any other differences, but you are not allowing time for other editors to review what you have already done, before piling on other changes. As such you are editing without a consensus for the change and you have not discussed the changes you want to make other than in the most general terms, before making them. So before you make any more changes make sure to answer the questions put to you and wait to give others a chance to review what you have done already. In principle I am not against the page being tided up, but as can be seen in the next section you are now suggesting major changes to the core of the policy and that is another ball game. --PBS (talk) 21:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

If I make change A, and then you do review X, and then I make change B, and you do review Y, how is this any different from me making changes A and B and then you doing review X and Y? In terms of time and complexity, there isn't. Again, I don't need "consensus" (permission) to make a change. I need only to have some objections. As long as these are being provided, I am fine. I think I have addressed all of your objections. Would you like me to reimplement the changes in a way that provides you with a better diff?    M   21:56, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I think there is much to be gained by taking a new look at the flora and fauna guidelines, and I don't rule out a universe in which they can be combined. Nevertheless, debate, especially on the flora side, but also to some extent with fauna, has been highly polarized. M, the one thing you have accomplished is to unite the two sides of the debate against you, because none of us want to see the tenuously-balanced Malus domestica cart upset. I assume that is not your goal. I think it would be highly worthwhile for you to familiarize yourself with the debate, and with the players, because at this point any successful revision will be 80% politics and 20% new ideas.--Curtis Clark (talk) 21:49, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I do not intend to combine them, I intend to put them on the same page: 'flora and fauna', see here. Do some parts of them not overlap?    M   21:59, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Another point user:M you are removing lots of section headers, have you checked to see if any redirects or guidelines have links to those section headers that you are deleting? -- PBS (talk) 22:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Just M is fine. I gave consideration to this before starting, and this is not a problem - these are easily provided with <span name='name here'> tags.    M   22:11, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The summary was "turning this into a usable index", but it removed the indexing by the TOC. My rationale was perhaps too polite, and discrete, the summary when I added the diff above was "Reverted, made a confusing page worse". This was only half done, and I don't think it should be done at all; section headers are linkable and conventional, an arcane work-around with span ids and the ";" list coding is redundant - highly redundant even. Discussion of other pages should start on those talk pages, such as Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (fauna). cygnis insignis 23:17, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Redundant with what? And I'm not sure I understand, you think that the pages should be indexed both by the ToC, and as a bunch of headings?    M   23:53, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Redundant to the level three headers I restored. The TOC directs the reader to specific guidance and the subsections are linked from elsewhere, it made the very long page less useful. The TOC subsections gave a list, where the editor would find plant listed under A for Animal.

@PBS: Your last revert was to your previous edit, which reverted to the above, but it has not restored these subsection headings. cygnis insignis 00:59, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this is called an index. A table of contents is not an index. And I'm sure you mean something else when you say plants are listed under animals.    M   02:13, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Whatever you might like to call it, the page is decidedly less useful if the TOC does not provide direct links to the specific sections. older ≠ wiser 02:21, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I asked PBS to restore them, removal obviously reduces the utility of the page. cygnis insignis 18:40, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

As I explained on your talk page, I did not remove them. User:M did. But as there is some confusion over this issue I have reverted M's changes to the section. --PBS (talk) 00:59, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup

What does the following (seemingly ungrammatical) sentence mean:

Following linking conventions and naming conventions are more likely to produce working links to the expected article.

It seems to be recommending the use of good linking conventions in a roundabout way - there seems to be no need to link this other guideline. Also,

while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

This is not a naming issue, it has to do with redirects. Also, much more substantively,

Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject.

This seems to introduce a bias towards academic naming, which would conflict with NPOV. Suppose we have two equally reliable sources, and one states that reliable academic sources use X to refer to the subject in 90% of cases, while the other states that "the greatest number of English speakers" use Y to refer to the subject in 90% of cases. We would go with Y (as per "the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize"), but this suggests that we should go with X. Thoughts?    M   20:15, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

It is a naming issue, as people frequently replace a redirect with the name of the article assuming that the name of the article is the "correct" one.

" Wikipedia determines the recognizability ...", No this does not introduce a bias towards academic naming, as the content of the article must be based on the same reliable sources. --PBS (talk) 21:16, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't quite understand the first point. The replacers assume that it is correct, or? For the second point, given my above example, do we call the article X or Y?    M   21:33, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

There is a bias among editors to link directly to the name of an article rather than using redirects. So if the name of the article affects the text of many of the articles that link to it.

In the case of the second, we are very lucky if we have any sources that do what you are suggestion. But reliable sources that give such figures are highly prized, and if available tend to be influential. However I think you are making the mistake of thinking that reliable sources mean academic sources (it does not, as mainstream newspapers, and such like are also reliable sources). Further it is not what people call something that necessarily decides what the article should be, because we are trying to choose a name which most people would expect the article to appear in a reliable source. For example the majority of people in London call the underground system "the tube", but they would probably not expect to find an article in a reliable source under the "London tube system" but under the London Underground. --PBS (talk) 21:59, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

"we are trying to choose a name which most people would expect the article to appear in a reliable source" is what I was looking for, thank you.    M   22:09, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The names read like instructions:

• Use the most easily recognized name
  • Add redirects
• How to rename a page

I think it is better if these steps are kept clear and distinct from the General naming conventions. As they are all anyone really needs to create or move a page.

Originally the "Use the most easily recognized name" was in the lead section, I moved it out of that when I added the current lead, which before had been very messy. It is now referenced as a section all over the place so I think it better to leave it where it is with the section name that it has. --PBS (talk) 00:09, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand the last paragraph of yours. Do you understand that in the course of a cleanup, there may be some intermediary versions which are not the intended finished product? I know what you're trying to do with the 'instructions'. A ToC is not an appropriate place to try to summarize policy.    M   00:20, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure what is not clear about my last paragraph. The wording in the section "Use the most easily recognized name" was originally part of the lead. I moved it into a separate section and gave it that name. That section and name is now linked into from lots of different places. You and I will have to disagree over your last sentence. It is no so much in the TOC as on the page. If you put in a lot more steps I may or may not disagree with those. But I do defiantly not agree with moving these sections into the general section. I think those sections should stay were they are at the start of the article. Why not give it 12 hours or 24 hours and see if the changes you have made to date are acceptable before pressing on with more changes? And then we can see if others agree with your last two edits. If you explain what it is that you want to do before you do it then it will help people understand what it is that you are trying to do. --PBS (talk) 00:34, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

What is unacceptable about them? Revisions are saved, you can go back to whatever version you like. It's simple courtesy, apparently lacking here, not to revert an editor who has stated that they are doing cleanup a mere two minutes after they start, on the basis of not agreeing with some intermediary version. No wonder this page is a mess.    M   01:07, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

STOP. Your last edit is nothing short of vandalism. You can not take a key policy section an that has been stable for over a year and revert it to an older version. This is a working policy and it effects the naming and renaming of many articles each day. Pleas STOP and discuss the changes. --PBS (talk) 00:45, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree. This is unacceptable. Hesperian 00:47, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

What was removed? See this diff. In some previous revision, someone seems to have carelessly removed the statement "you can rename pages to fit", replacing it with "pages may be renamed using [helppage]". Is there an objection to reinstating this? I'm aware that you feel that you need to be given time to look through the changes being made to your policy page, but please give other editors a moment to actually complete their changes before reverting them. And this policy page is by no means a 'china shop' - it's poorly written, redundant, poorly-organized, and doesn't conform to WP:PG.    M   00:58, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Of most importance to me was the removal of "Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject."

Better a "poorly written, redundant, poorly-organized" page that represents consensus, than a piece of glowing prose that reflects M's personal view.

And don't preach to me about editing courtesy. You've been making undiscussed wholesale changes across numerous naming convention pages for days now, and you're trying to teach me about courtesy? Perhaps you might stop for a moment, and think about the fact that these conventions have evolved through years of extensive discussion and careful compromise, and it is unrealistic to think that everyone is going to agree with your sweeping unilateral changes.

Hesperian 01:12, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I waited a long time to says this! I agree with everything that Hesperian has just written, and was going to raise exactly the same point about the removal of "reliable sources in English" and would also add in the section heading in which that text resides which is linked into many pages so people can find the section dealing with "Use[ing] the most easily recognized name". --PBS (talk) 01:31, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Had you waited a few minutes, that wording would have been replaced once I checked the changes for consistency. I don't disagree with you. Could you not have simply replaced that section, after I was done cleanup, if I accidentally missed it? Instead, you seem to have assumed that I was trying to inject my own "personal view".    M   01:53, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

If you want to improve a page via edits that degrade it, use your sandbox. When you submit a change, your fellow editors are entitled to interpret it as a submitted change. Hesperian 02:06, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

This wrecks the diffs. You immediately reverted 2 minutes after I made the change. You should have waited.    M   02:11, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Either you want to make your edits in small mouthfuls for your own convenience, in which case you can bloody well do it in your sandbox; or you want to make your edits in small mouthfuls so that they are more easily swallowed by the editors that will scrutinise them, in which case you must accept that editors are entitled to revert on the basis of a diff. If you are going to insist that we wait until you have completely finished before we revert, then you do not intend your intermediate edits to survive scrutiny, and you have no need for diffs. So what is it? Are these intermediate diffs intended for public scrutiny or not? You can't have it both ways, M. Hesperian 02:43, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Of course you can scrutinize them, but could you not have waited more than 0 seconds to act on that scrutiny, almost immediately after I made the change, when it was clear that I was making consecutive changes?    M   19:08, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Broadcasting section

I plan to move the large broadcasting section into its own page, Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(broadcasting). Any objections?    M   20:19, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I have no objections in principle, but it will mean moving it from policy to a guideline, and perhaps you should ask editors in broadcasting project groups what they think. --PBS (talk) 21:59, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Both are marked as "naming conventions", which within the scope of this page is a guideline endorsed by this policy. There seems to be no problem here in terms of loss of authority.    M   22:06, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The naming conventions is a policy page, and the others are guidelines, for historical reasons the terminology "conventions" is a little confused, but the content of guidelines are not policy. --PBS (talk) 22:13, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

From the very start, we have "Aircraft names [edit] Aircraft names are too varied to give full guidelines here; see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (aircraft)." There appears to be no difference between what's listed in that large section, and in the various subpages. Much of the wording confirms this. Moving something to a subpage is simply a matter of length and convenience.    M   22:52, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Aircraft names was created before the distinction between the policy and guidelines became as strong as it now is. It was also created like many of the other guidelines before "verifiable reliable sources" was added to this policy, which means that much of it is now a redundant work around for when we used unreliable as well as reliable sources to decide on names. Creating new guidelines today implies informing village pump etc etc ... and I bet others come in with ways to "improve" the text of the new guideline before they will accept it as a new guideline. --PBS (talk) 00:43, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Could you fix the wording that says "the only reason we don't list aircraft naming here is because it's too long", then?    M   01:00, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

That would not be a fix, because one is policy the other is a guideline. --PBS (talk) 01:25, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

You're saying that wording can't be removed because nameconv is a policy and the aircraft conventions are a guideline? I don't follow.    M   01:45, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I think that Aircraft naming is a good guideline that builds on this naming conventions policy in the correct way. It is much better as a module in the whole. Those with a specific interest in Aircraft can usually just look at the guideline and decide on the appropriate name, and if they do then it dovetails in nicely with the policy. Those projects that need to name aircraft an maintain it and add any specific examples the need to help them name aircraft. The could reach the same conclusion by reading WP:NAME, WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRECISION and the associated guidelines, but the Aircraft naming guideline gives all the relevant information that is easy for a propeller head to understand without wading through lots of irrelevant guff.

As I said above, I have nothing against you creating a broadcasting guideline and moving the text out of this policy, but it will mean moving it from policy to a guideline, and perhaps you should ask editors in broadcasting project groups what they think of the idea because they have to live with it. --PBS (talk) 02:45, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

(undent) You're saying that the wording 'aircraft are excluded from this policy only because it is too long' should remain there because of the above? I'm not so much concerned about the broadcasting guideline, but I do wonder about the difference between the guidelines and what is listed here. Can you think of any case where the distinction between which conventions are here and which in their own page has mattered?    M   19:43, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and it's intended to matter. This page is the core of naming conventions, the stuff we agree on and can apply without exception. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:12, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

(I'm talking about the #Other specific conventions section.)    M   22:02, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

So if some "rule" is stated on this page, as opposed to in a guideline which is linked to from this page, does that make it somehow less likely to have exceptions? Or more agreed on? Or what exactly? And how does this work? (Because the impression one gets reading the list of topic-related conventions is that those that don't appear here are thought too detailed or technical to be presented in full on this page. And the cynical impression one might get from watching activity on this page is that the main criterion for a statement's right to appear on this page is whether Mr Shearer agrees with it or not.)--Kotniski (talk) 21:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

See WP:Naming conflict‎ and WP:NC (flora), and my comment above on whether this broadcasting text is here or in a guideline. --PBS (talk) 21:37, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

• Things that appear here should have almost everybody agreeing with them; and and everybody includes PBS as well as us.
• We should probably make clear that the topic related section is a See also; as are the other links out. WP:POL recommends making this clear for links. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

We are not intended for specialists. They have better sources, and ones not vandalized by junior high school students. When we simply summarize those sources, we are doing better than usual. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:12, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Main principle?

Which of the following is the main principle?

1. The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists.
2. Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, [while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.]
3. Choose a name which most people would expect the article to appear in a reliable source

My suggestion is:

• Wikipedia articles are given the name that the greatest number of English-speaking readers would expect in a reliable source. Naming is for the benefit of readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists.

Currently, #1 seems to be the guiding principle.    M   02:07, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I suggest we leave the section "Use the most easily recognized name" as it is. The wording has remain the same (with the addition of reliable sources over a year ago) since 2002 and it has served us well. --PBS (talk) 10:51, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I am reluctant to change language I am accustomed to quoting. What benefit does this have? If the change has some benefit, the new wording seems close enough to be a small cost, but what are we getting for it? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:11, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I suppose the advantage of "most people would expect in a reliable source" over "most easily recognized" is that it excludes common vulgarisms and the like, that everyone would recognize, but we wouldn't want used in an encyclopedia.--Kotniski (talk) 19:21, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the concerns about changing the main wording stem more from a concern for losing it among the rest of the policy. There are some problems, pointed out at WT:Naming conflict, regarding inappropriate names (like "Gypsy"). The main principle isn't quite that we choose the most common name, but that we choose the most common name expected of a reliable source.

...what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize [in a reliable source] with the minimum of ambiguity...

(We could then remove the word "generally" that precedes this section.) It's already true in practice that we do not always choose the most common name, but we do choose the one readers expect in a reliable source.    M   19:37, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Please choose another example Gypsy is not an inappropriate term in British English. See this explanation. The term is widely used in reliable sources in the UK. --PBS (talk) 20:31, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The one I always have in mind (though I don't like to keep saying it aloud) is that we don't move Feces to Shit.--Kotniski (talk) 21:36, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Up to last year the wording in the section "Use the most easily recognized name" was separate from any other policy on Wikipeia, largely because when it was formulated there was little in the way of policy on Wikipedia. A problem with the term "reliable source", is that it is not defined in this policy, but is instead delegated via a link to WP:V is it always true that what are reliable source for content (as defined under WP:SOURCES) the same as reliable sources for names? --PBS (talk) 20:48, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't have to be defined, and it shouldn't be defined since it's not talking about reliable sources. The intended meaning is that an encyclopedia should use formal-like names, because that's what people expect and will be looking for. We might just say "...would most easily recognize in an encyclopedia with...", how about that?    M   21:58, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

It's still a bit shorthandish - people would recognize vulgarisms whether they saw them in an encyclopedia or elsewhere. There are really two points: we use names people recognize and we use names of a register appropriate to an encyclopedia.--Kotniski (talk) 22:04, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

This is why I suggested "that the greatest number of English-speaking readers would expect in a reliable source[/encyclopedia]". I still very much prefer it over my other suggestions, but there is an objection that it drastically changes wording that's been quoted for a while now (though I think it's outdated).    M   22:09, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

"Encyclopaedia" is defiantly not the way to go the last think we need, see WP:V "if no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." how long before someone puts in a AfD based on the argument that there is no such term in any other encyclopaedia and justifies the AfD on this proposed change? Don't get me wrong I am not necessarily objection to "reliable source", it is just that I am leary of unforeseen consequences of altering the wording that has existed unchanged for many years (marry in haste and repent at leisure). So I want several sets of eyes to consider the proposed wording before making up my mind if it is the way forward. --PBS (talk) 22:14, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm again having a bit of trouble understanding what you mean. You seem to be saying something about deleting articles, which has nothing to do with naming them. And how many sets of eyes do you need? Is there a time frame? Because there's the danger that editors who have even the most trivial changes reverted until "some eyes" come along might give up trying to work with you and leave before that happens.    M   22:35, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

If this policy says that the name must be encyclopaedic then some people will use that to justify AfDing articles they do not like because it does not appear in any other encyclopaedia, and that it is therefore against policy because the name of an article is in breach of the naming conventions policy. This is now a foreseen problem!

It ain't broke at the moment. No one has suggested that the current wording has caused problems with the creation of articles. What is being suggested here is a fetteling of the wording, as such there is no hurry to implement it and we do not need to hurry. Changing policies for no pressing reason, tends to lead to instability (because the changes cause unforeseen problems, or because it turns out there is not a consensus to do so, or because once a change is made people like to tinker further). With such a venerable core of the policy we should only change it if there is a wide consensus to do so. --PBS (talk) 08:24, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think "readers expect" is quite right still - perhaps most readers would expect Bill Clinton to be called William, but we still call him Bill and hope their surprise will be a pleasant one.--Kotniski (talk) 22:32, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

How about a negative then - we won't use a name that would be unexpected in a reliable source/encyclopedia? Bill is not unexpected, but Shit is.    M   22:37, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, something like that. Perhaps there's a better way to say it, but that's what I was getting at.--Kotniski (talk) 22:45, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Does this differ materially from "use what reliable sources use"? We know that reliable sources aren't expected to use Shit, because they don't. And we should always consider how POV pushers will abuse policy: "Darn it all, I expect truly reliable sources to [adopt my point of view].Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:48, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The original question was about principle, which might well be reader-oriented (i.e. "least surprise") rather than source-oriented ("conform!"). But I agree that we need to end up at "use what reliable source use" not "use what we expect reliable sources to use". Hesperian 23:23, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I think that the point about "least surprise" is important. All other points aside, if a reader enters qwxry and gets an article that is not what they wanted they are surprised. If that happens a for a significant number of entries, or would be anticipated for a significant number of entries, then the article at that place probably is not the right one. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:48, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Or similarly (and perhaps more to the point in most naming debates) if they get the article they wanted, but it carries an odd name, they will also be surprised - and more importantly, perhaps confused or misinformed (depending on the situation).--Kotniski (talk) 07:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

If we are going to make this change This change then we may as well get rid of "The underlying principle is that" and just have "The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists." --PBS (talk) 09:16, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Fine by me. There's also something odd about the statement "Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what reliable sources call the subject." It's as if we're trying to pretend that reliable source use implies recognizability (that two guiding principles are really one), which isn't the case in the real world.--Kotniski (talk) 09:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

The wording was added last year and it had/has the advantage that it did not touch the original wording. Remember that when it was added there were a limited number of editors involved in the conversation and there could be no grantee that a wider consensus existed at the time for such a radical addition. For example Born2cycle has several times mentioned that he doe not approve of it. It was introduced to get around the problem with people trawling the internet and finding many unreliable sources (as defined in WP:SOURCES) and arguing that was the name we should put an article under. This caused all sorts of problems, eg differences between name and content (because content can only use reliable sources), and lots of specialist exceptions in the guidelines to work around the use of non reliable sources, both of these problems were fixed with this addition.

Now that the sentence has been in place for over year and part of the accepted consensus, we could consider integrating the two sentences -- I thought that was in part what this discussion was about. But I am not sure it is necessary or desirable, but I'am open minded on the issue. --PBS (talk) 11:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I suppose what we are trying to say is something like "recognizable by readers who are familiar with reliable sources on the subject".--Kotniski (talk) 11:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Re: "and for a general audience over specialists", I disagree with that. The name of an article should be optimised to be as acceptable as possible to as much of its audience as possible. If an article doesn't have a "general audience", then choosing a name that is optimised for an audience that the article doesn't have, is silly.

To take an extreme example, suppose we have an article on a topic so highly technical and utterly esoteric that only ten people in the world will ever bother to read it; and all ten of those people are leading specialists in the field. In that case, we would/should be seeking a title that would be acceptable to as many of those ten readers as possible.

It is possible that what I am saying here is precisely what our principle is driving at: that we should choose a name that is accessible to the many (i.e. all ten), rather than catering to the few (i.e. the one or two who have the most expertise, or who are the biggest pedants). If so, then we need to rephrase, since my example is difficult to reconcile with the phrase "general audience over specialists".

Hesperian 23:43, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Hesperian has it exactly wrong. The very notion of a Wikipedia article not having a general audience is preposterous, since a requirement of entry in Wikipedia is notability, which implies the existence of the very general audience that is hypothesized above to not exist for a phantom topic.

When a topic only has a technical name, then that is what must be used. Sure. But when a topic has both a technical name used by specialists within the field, as well as a common name that is more likely to be recognized and used by non-specialists to refer to the same topic, then the latter is supposed to be given preference in naming the Wikipedia article about that topic. That's the whole point.

It should be noted that for a given topic, most reliable sources may be written by specialists and so the technical terminology may seem to be more commonly used when looking at WP:GOOGLE results. But that should not preclude use of the name more likely to be recognized by a general (non-specialist) audience as the title of the article about that topic. I wish there was a way to consult only general publications, like the NY Times, Time and Newsweek, to determine most common usage among the general audience for a given topic, without having to search each one individually. Anyway...

Yes, this cornerstone notion of Wikipedia flies in the face of guidelines adopted by the editors of certain categories of articles despite their blatant contradicting of this notion that is fundamental to Wikipedia, but that's a separate (through obviously closely related) issue. Some day hopefully all that will be fixed and all of Wikipedia will be unified with respect to this basic principle of naming.

In the mean time, we need to get the policy clearly stated so as to minimize these types of misinterpretations. This proposal seems to be a step in the right direction. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:12, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

"The very notion of a Wikipedia article not having a general audience is preposterous, since a requirement of entry in Wikipedia is notability." As you know, notability is not defined as "having a general audience". It is defined in terms of coverage in reliable sources. The rest of what you have written doesn't actually address what I have said. Hesperian 00:34, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, notability is not explicitly defined as ""having a general audience", but it's clearly there by implication.

This is the general notability guideline from WP:N: if a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article (my emphasis). Here it implies the importance of a general audience by referring to "sources that are independent of the subject" -- sources much more likely to be encountered by a non-specialized general audience -- over specialized ones that would not be "independent of the subject". For example, how Time magazine refers to a plant should get higher priority than how a botanical guide refers to that plant, and, arguably, the subject should not even have an article in Wikipedia if the subject is only referenced in specialized sources that are not independent of the subject.

I mean, if not to address relevance to a general audience, then what is the point of giving priority to "sources that are independent of the subject" when determining notability? Does it really need to be spelled out explicitly? Maybe so.

If there is no general audience for a given topic, then that topic is not notable by implication, if not by definition, and should not even be in Wikipedia. --Born2cycle (talk) 01:07, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

That is all a load of complete and utter bollocks.

An author doesn't cease to be independent of a subject merely by dint of writing about it, else every edit to Wikipedia would be a conflict of interest, by virtue of having been written by someone who wrote it. The idea that one cannot use Nature as a source for articles about nature is both hilarious and tragically stupid. Perhaps you also think that vertebrate should also protected against editing by vertebrates? Seriously, go over to WP:NOTABILITY and try and get endorsement for your outlandish interpretation, before peddling it here.

The answer to your question "what is the point of giving priority to sources that are independent of the subject" is that it is intended to address sources that were written by the subject, or the subject's wife, or the subject's media agent, or anyone who stands to benefit from promotion of the subject. Essentially the notability policy is saying that you cannot confer notability on yourself by writing about yourself, or getting your agent to write about you. And you cannot confer notability on your product or service by publishing advertising.

No thanks to you for burying my serious and sensible comment under a screed of utter nonsense. Again.

Hesperian 01:44, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, he had a point. But I don't think this is really an issue - if a subject doesn't have a general audience, then it won't have a general-audience-oriented name, so the issue of optimizing for a general audience won't arise in that case (at least as far as the article name is concerned).--Kotniski (talk) 09:41, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

What point? That all technical subjects are non-notable? Or that there is no such thing as sources that are independent of their subject? Hesperian 10:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Neither. Nothing I wrote made either of those points. I did not say that all technical subjects are non-notable. I didn't even say that there are definitely some technical subjects that are non-notable (though I allowed for that possibility). I also did not say there is no such thing as sources that are independent of their subject. I even gave examples of of sources that are typically independent of whatever subject they are covering, like Time magazine.

My point is that a premise of your objection - that topics without a general audience exist in Wikipedia ("If an article doesn't have a "general audience", then ...") - is absurd since by implication such topics would not be notable. Can you give an example of even one WP article with a topic that does not have a general audience and is not a candidate for deletion for lack of notability?

I write such articles all the time; a recent example is effective selfing model. General audience: No. Notable: Yes. Hesperian 23:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

While Kotniski's point is true that for a hypothetical topic without a general audience there would be no general audience name, Hesperian's disagreement is with the part of the guideline that calls for optimizing naming "for a general audience over specialists", which of course can only apply when there are at least two competing names (if the name used and most likely to be recognized by specialists and by the general audience is identical, this aspect of the guideline has no application). That's the real reason Hesperian objects to this wording... in those situations he wants to see naming optimized for specialists over what a general audience uses and is most likely to recognize, which is exactly opposite of the underlying naming principle adopted and reflected both explicitly and implicitly throughout Wikipedia policy, guidelines and conventions. --Born2cycle (talk) 16:46, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

That's not true. Hesperian 23:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Another oddity is that we have the section "Use the most recognized name", closely followed by the general convention "Use common names of persons and things" - and these two sections seem to be basically saying the same thing, except that they do it differently (the second one makes no mention of reliable sources, although the detailed guideline it links to does). Can we somehow reconcile this into something coherent?--Kotniski (talk) 10:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Nope the other way around, those two statements are direct opposites and as a result have lead to many move discussions and interesting results. If readers call something by an English common name, say cow dog and the experts and journals call it bovine cannis, or whatever, which name do we use? Clearly the first is generally the most recognized name to most readers even if is also known as the second. Now if I restrict readers to the experts in the field, then the second name is the most common. Scientific journals use the scientific name so there is clear sourcing for the scientific name. That is simply a fact. That in no way establishes that name as the common name for all readers, no matter how many journal articles there are. As a reader of the article like that, I would expect to see it at that name with an introduction of something like 'A cow dog (scientific name:bovine cannis} is...' Of course the scientific info boxes now need a current education or a specialized education to even read them, which proves that using stuff from there to name the article may be a bad idea. Also, the fact that there may be several common names used, does not mean that one of them does not qualify as the common name. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:17, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. I think "common name" needs to be clarified to state that more dominant usage of a name in specialized reliable sources should not trump favoring a name more easily recognized by a general audience, and that specialized guidelines should not contradict this either. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:37, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd go with that. There is already a creeping use of latin as article names for species of plants, animals and birds, which needs reversing. Examples include Calluna for heather; Ulex europaeus for gorse; Armeria maritima for thrift; Thymus serpyllum for thyme; Tuberaria guttata for spotted rock rose and Teloschistes for golden hair lichen. Skinsmoke (talk) 19:20, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

These examples are all horribly ambiguous:

• When people say heather they usually mean Erica not Calluna, though sometimes they mean Cassiope or Harrimanella. If our article on Calluna belongs at heather, where does Erica belong?
• gorse is already the title of our article on the genus Ulex. And you're complaining that U. europaeus is at its scientific name instead of at gorse? As if that it is some kind of anti-common name conspiracy that the more prominent article is already taking the common name you want?
• thrift is not only ambiguous in general, but ambiguous as the name of a plant. The Thrift (plant) redirect doesn't even point at Armeria maritima.
• We already have an article at thyme, about the herb, which derives from Thymus vulgaris. Thymus serpyllum is one of several species of Wild Thyme. You would move it to thyme? Bloody ridiculous.
• "Golden hair lichen" is Teloschistes flavicans, a species; the article is about a genus.

I doubt a single one of your proposals would get up, and not because of any opposition to common names. They would fail because they take no account whatsoever of very serious ambiguity problems.

Hesperian 23:43, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

You're missing the point Hesperian. Firstly I made no proposal for renaming, simply pointed out examples where the article is extremely difficult to find for the average reader who doesn't have specialist botanical knowledge. My subjects are geography and history, not botany, and I struggle to link articles to the botanical pages in Wikipedia, even using the help of sources such as Natural England, the Countryside Agency and various national park authorities. I get the impression that certain editors want to keep those pages the private preserve of an exclusive cabal and positively discourage readers from other fields trampling on "their" territory. Maybe that isn't what is intended; it is, however, how it comes across. Skinsmoke (talk) 00:00, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

You have difficulty finding these articles because the common names that you know are horribly ambiguous. You have no proposal for fixing the problem. You prefer to sling accusations of cabalism from a safe distance. Hesperian 00:06, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Let's put it this way. You have difficulty finding Thymus serpyllum because you know it as "thyme", a horribly vague and ambiguous common name. I acknowledge the problem. I see the difficulty. I have a reasonable understanding of the situation. I am eager to help. What can I do? Hesperian 00:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

There, it only took 4 minutes for you to calm down. It's not that I know it as "thyme"; it's that authoritative government and quasi-governmental sources know it as "thyme". It's even used in the citations for international recognition of protected areas. The way that we get round the ambiguity problem for birds, animals or fish is to determine the most common name in English, even though that may generate some discussion and controversy (the gray seal versus grey seal debate). But at least most of us can comprehend a heading such as European Robin or Manx Shearwater, whereas Erithacus rubecula or Puffinus puffinus are meaningless to us. Skinsmoke (talk) 00:46, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

You have difficulty finding Thymus serpyllum because you know itit is known as "thyme", a horribly vague and ambiguous common name. I acknowledge the problem. I see the difficulty. I have a reasonable understanding of the situation. I am eager to help. What can I do? Hesperian 01:06, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I and a few others have been trying to convince plant editors like Hesperian that these Latin-preferring plant naming conventions are inconsistent with WP naming policy, guidelines and conventions, to no avail. They often rely on the predominance of usage of the Latin name in "reliable sources" (mostly specialized material, of course) and the fact that just using the Latin names is easier since the taxonomy is already comprised of unique names and all worked out, while many plants often have multiple English "common names" (never mind that this puts the interests of editors above those of readers). The enlightened view you represent has not been able to achieve majority support yet, much less consensus. There are quite a few editors who believe, for various reasons, that specialized guidelines should be able to trump the general ones. --Born2cycle (talk) 19:42, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

If I could put my 2 cents in, there just is no one size fits all do it this way guideline or policy that can be written that will satisfy everyone, in my opinion. There are what, 2 million articles, with 2 million names, and while we can generally agree on some common principles, I would not get bent out of shape over trying to come up with a standard that must be applied. 199.125.109.124 (talk) 20:28, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think anyone objects to the inevitable exceptions on an individual article basis. It's the wholesale dismissal of common principles in the naming of hundreds and thousands of articles in certain categories that is the problem. --Born2cycle (talk) 20:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Might we start implementing the changes that we do agree on?    M   22:13, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Given Hesperian's objection to giving preference to general readers over specialists, what changes do we agree on? --Born2cycle (talk) 22:24, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I endorse giving preference to general readers over specialists, as long as both general readers and specialists is interpreted in the context of the article. An article on a highly esoteric piece of mathematics, which will only ever be read by maths grads, has a general audience of maths grads. Our principle must be be to cater to those who will actually read the article, not the man in the street who will not. I believe, and Kotniski confirms, that this is indeed the correct reading of the principle. Unfortunately the wording also lends itself to an interpretation that we should cater to the lowest common denominator, even when titling article that the LCD will never read. Hesperian 23:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

What? What about anyone who gets to the article by clicking on WP:RANDOM, or some other link within Wikipedia? You seem to be suggesting that each article needs to target a different audience? The subset of the "general reader" that are most likely to read that article?

Again, do you have an actual example of such an article ("a highly esoteric piece of mathematics, which will only ever be read by maths grads") within Wikipedia that is not a candidate for deletion? By the way, if you actually come up with one, I promise I will read it, thus nullifying your "will only ever be read by maths grads" premise since I'm not a maths grad. These incredible rationalizations are creative, I'll give you that. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:07, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

You asked broadly the same question above, and I answered it. Reading an article to prove me wrong, does not make you part of the article's general audience. Nor does arriving at the title via WP:RANDOM, reading the first sentence, realising you lack the context to get anything out of the article, then WP:RANDOMing off elsewhere. Hesperian 00:17, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Sorry, I missed your answer above. I disagree with your characterization of your Effective selfing model article. I would say that it is written for the general reader (not just for maths grads). That is, it's written at the level that would be appropriate for, say, the typical National Geographic reader. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:36, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

If you want a maths-specific example, most of the outlinks from Lie group will serve. To choose one more or less at random: G-structure. I assert that it would be impossible and pointless to try to address such a topic at the man in the street: you would have to include gigabytes of background in order to get the point across. The only reasonable way to write such an article is to recognise that the topic is of interest only to people that already have the required background (i.e. maths grads), and pitch the article at them. For such an article, the title we select should be optimised for the general audience of the article, which is maths grads. Kotniski makes the point that there won't be a man-in-the-street title for such concepts, and I accept that. My point is addressed at how we articulate the principle of "general audience over specialists". Hesperian 00:25, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

But we have gigabytes of background; that's what links are for. When we become publishable, a reader will go from G-structure down to manifold (and possibly from there to dimension, although Manifold does a really good job even now) and find the necessary explanations (and so on with all the other links as necessary). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:29, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. But how we compensate for omitting reams of background is immaterial. The fact is that we have to omit reams of background when writing esoteric articles like this. This is precisely equivalent to assuming our readers possess, or are able to take possession of, that background.

If it is appropriate to write articles under the assumption that readers will possess certain necessary background knowledge, surely it is also appropriate to select the article title under the same assumption! Hesperian 01:48, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

H, that's a better example. I admit it's over my head. However, the part of the guideline we're talking about, "Naming is for the benefit of ... a general audience over specialists." has no application in such an example, since the naming is no different whether we're aiming to benefit a general audience or specialists. This distinction only applies when the name is different depending on who we're aiming to benefit, and I submit an article whose topic has names that differ so can and should be written for the general audience, and named accordingly (e.g., hence "Joshua tree" and not "Yucca brevifolia"). --Born2cycle (talk) 01:37, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Re your "has no application" comment, Kotniski has already made this point, and I accept it. As you say, the "general audience over specialists" clause is not likely to find an application to such a topic. I'll need time to digest the rest of what you have said. Hesperian 01:48, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

User:M what changes do you think we have agreed upon? --PBS (talk) 00:33, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

What about the article that only ten people will understand?

As I said above, we are not written for the ten people who understand Upper Foolandish passive tenses or outer semi-continuous homological algebra [both names intended to be equal spoofs]; they have a small journal, where they write research papers for each other, and no junior high students are allowed to vandalize it. In such cases, our articles are intended to explain the subject to somebody who would like to become the eleventh. Now this may itself require that the reader is not just off the street, but can breeze through the preliminary articles on Foolandish grammar or unadjectived homological algebra; but readers should not be expected to know things only the ten know to be sure they're at the right article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:30, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't see how this applies to any plant large and common enough to have a widely used English name anyway; what branch of botany is so recondite? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:41, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Well said, particularly: "our articles are intended to explain the subject to somebody who would like to become the eleventh". Exactly. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:40, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, someone so utterly confused and angered at the sight of Yucca brevifolia when they typed in Johusa tree that they close the page and never speak of it again is not really someone who has any aspirations of being the eleventh. You're confusing two ideas here I think - content and name. Sabine's Sunbird talk 00:04, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Confused? We're talking about article names here, and, in particular (using your example), whether using a name like "Joshua Tree" or a name like "Yucca brevifolia" is optimizing the article name for general readers over specialists. What are you talking about? --Born2cycle (talk) 00:36, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Septentrionalis, you have misread me on a critical point. I didn't say only ten people will understand. I said only ten people will ever bother to read it. Yet you make a distinction that might prove helpful:

Think of the very few people who already understand the article content as specialists. Think of the broader group of people who want to understand the article content as general audience. My assertion is that "general audience over specialists" should be understood in that context; that is, in the context of the particular article, bearing in mind that the audience is "not just off the street". My concern is that "general audience" and "specialists" can be misconstrued as "anyone and everyone who might WP:RANDOM onto this page" and "anyone who has sufficient background to actually engage with the article" respectively.

Hesperian 00:38, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you think other encyclopedias are written with different reading audiences in mind for each article? Or even for certain areas of the encyclopedia? I don't think it's fair to say "general audience" means "anyone off the street". We know we're talking about people literate in English and who have enough interest (and thus intelligence) to look up stuff in an online encyclopedia. That's the general audience, and it's generally the same for every Wikipedia article. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:44, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Having read most of the World Book Encyclopedia in the 1960s, I can guarantee that there was effectively a different reading audience for each article, whether it was intended or not.--Curtis Clark (talk) 01:40, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Whereas I must agree with Hesperian's definitions, but not the conclusion he draws. Even in his terms, Yucca brevifolia is like describing a group as a special kind of one-point category, a genuinely useful locution in the faculty lounge, but not recommended for entering undergraduates - and most of our articles are not hierarchical; they do have everyone off the street who can read literate English as their general audience. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:54, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

This is where we disagree. Do you assert that it is possible and desirable to rewrite G-structure so that it is just as accessible to a general audience (by your definition) as Pikachu? Hesperian 00:48, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Let's just say that, as it stands, it will never make it to Good article or Featured article. Skinsmoke (talk) 01:00, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it doesn't have enough useless footnotes; that's a problem with Futile Aggravation, not the article, whose sources are clearly indicated. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:08, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone think that it is possible and desirable to rewrite G-structure so that it is accessible to anyone literate in English? Hesperian 01:29, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

If they're willing to go through enough hyperlinks, yes. The people who wrote G-structure learned enough to write it through a not dissimilar process, presumably with printed books. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:32, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

By that standard, inaccessibility loses all meaning. I could walk into any library, pluck a book off a shelf, and start reading. If it is goes over my head, I'll just randomly pick some other book, and read that instead. If I carry on doing this for a few million year, I'll read enough to build a really good understanding of the topic of the original book, so that when I return to it, I'll understand it. If it turns out to error-riddled incoherent garbage, I will immediately recognise it as such. And yet, by your definition, that error-riddled incoherent garbage will have achieved its goal of educating me on the topic. Hesperian 01:56, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

You asked about possibility. Have we achieved this? No. Will we achieve this? Some time after we obtain a perfect 100% fix for vandalism. But if the possibility were realized, it wouldn't take billions of hyperlinks; maybe a thousand; no more than would be required to read your way through a few textbooks. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:36, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

But the real point is: Nothing in Yucca brevifolia requires that sort of preparation - except the title. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:36, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. Way to put the issue succinctly, PMA. --Born2cycle (talk) 03:47, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

... except that I have not at any point put forward Y. brevifolia as an example here, nor tied what I've been saying to the flora naming convention in any way. Hesperian 03:54, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you've managed to avoid explicitly tying anything to the flora convention here, but the rationalizations you've put forward in objection here are transparent (and weak). --Born2cycle (talk) 13:59, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

You just carry on beating that straw man then. Hesperian 23:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Books don't have links. Wikipedia is very different in that respect. A well-written Wikipedia article, with proper links, should be accessible to the general reader, assuming the articles linked (and those they link) are as well, and ultimately convey whatever is necessary for the general reader to ultimately understand the original article. But, again, I think this is all moot because the part of the guideline to which you've objected probably never applies to names of the topics of the small minority of articles of the kind we're discussing here. --Born2cycle (talk) 02:09, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Books do have links. You just can't click on them. Hesperian 02:17, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Not only can you not click on them, but, unless you're sitting in an unusually well stocked library, and assuming they're not checked out, the referenced materials in books are probably not immediately available. The real-time learning experience provided by Wikipedia, and internet hyperlinks in general, is unparallelled in human history. --Born2cycle (talk) 03:44, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Regarding tree-of-life names- birds all have a recognised capitalised common name, mammals have common names though I do not think the names have been as regimented as birds, but as one moves down through reptiles and fish there can be a profusion of vernaular names. Similarly plants - for instance, many trees have specific vernacular names which differ between carpentry, horticulture and conservation, and the majortiy lack any common names whatsoever. Our aim above accessibility is exactness and correctness of meaning, hence use of redirects and disambig pages :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:31, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Nobody ever said or implied it's easy on editors to put the interests of readers first. Oftentimes it means hashing out the most appropriate name from a number of decent choices, and that can be trying and difficult. But, I for one, think it's worth it. With plants the temptation to forgo all that and instead just use the Latin name from the scientific taxonomy for flora is understandable, but doing so flies in the face of what Wikipedia naming is all about. In fact, as an unintended bonus, one of the benefits of Wikipedia is precisely the way it establishes what the most common name in English for a given topic is - based on what the title of the WP article about that topic is. When we skip this sometimes painful process, we fail to deliver on this benefit. --Born2cycle (talk) 03:54, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Why not link to articles?

dashes are used in page names, a redirect using hyphens must be provided (see also Manual of Style (dashes)).

Why not consult our article on Dash, which at least has sources and citations? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:11, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes indeed; but the MoS should fitly be first, since it is a sibling page in WP's advisory/policy infrastructure and has a different status (and hopefully greater stability and monitoring) than those articles. I've made this change. Tony (talk) 00:51, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

So, this is more of Tony's empire-building. We don't have an advisory/policy infrastructure; we're not a bureaucracy. MOS is far less stable than this page; that's the cost of being maintained by revert-warring, not consensus. I will adopt PBS's solution, below, if he hasn't. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

NC and contents policies are semi-detached

"also" or "see also" must appear before Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dashes) because the MOS (dashes) is not a naming convention guideline. There is no reason why editors should not be pointed towards the MOS but there should be no wording that implies that the wording of the MOS expands and explains the naming conventions. That way lies confusion and disharmony. The other side of the coin is that the Naming Conventions should not dictate what appears in articles. --PBS (talk) 08:40, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

But as far as use of hyphens/dashes is concerned, surely the same rules are supposed to be followed in titles as in article bodies (i.e. those listed at MOSDASH?)--Kotniski (talk) 09:48, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't care - and would not care if I were free to do something about it - what MOS says about dashes; we should not use rules made up in school one day, and if we must refer readers to an unreliable source like a Wikipedia page, we should choose the one with sources and citations. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:30, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. It's perfectly reasonable for us to point editors to Wikipedia's house style instead of to an article that tells people about non-Wikipedia uses of the same punctuation marks. In fact, since an editor looking at this page is presumably looking for information about how dashes are (and aren't) used on Wikipedia, instead of how they are used in various irrelevant situations, times, and places around the world, it would be pretty silly to exclude the link to MOSDASH. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:23, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

If our house style on dashes were not something that a handful of Language Reformers made up in school one day, without sources or citations, I might agree. As it is, however, I will consult printed style guides if available, and dash, which has collated them, if not. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:16, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Does WP:NC defer?

It may be news to some people here that NAME defers to THIS Naming Convention and others by stating that the specifics and rationale are found here. On the other hand, some may agree with it; in either case, comments are welcome at WT:Naming conflict#relations with policy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:23, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

How to rename a page

I think "How to rename a page" should stay were it is. People come to this page to see what sort of name to give an article, and I think that:

• the type of name
• redirects
• and how to rename a page

should appear clearly at the start of the article.

The simplest way to keep instructions on "How to rename a page" easily accessible for editors not familiar with this page is to place the information in the TOC near the top. Equally if it is in a section near the top, it does not clutter up the lead with what can be non important information if an editor has come to this page because they want to find out how to name a page, not to rename one. --PBS (talk) 10:04, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, let's leave it for now; it would have to be repositioned if the proposal below is adopted anyway.--Kotniski (talk) 10:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

(By "leave it" I meant move it back to where it was, if you so want.)--Kotniski (talk) 10:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Proposal to merge first two sections

As I've said already, the first two sections ("Use the most easily recognized name" and "Use common names...") effectively duplicate each other, and ought to be combined into one. This is my proposal for doing so: draft diff. It isn't intended to change anything materially, just simplify and eliminate duplicated wording (all the stuff about disambiguation, for example, is dealt with in the section immediately following, so doesn't need to be repeated here). The only real "change" of substance is my suggestion to add "largely" in the sentence "Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what reliable sources call the subject"; this takes account of the facts that (a) at present the section on common names doesn't mention reliable sources; (b) in practice, unrestricted Google searches are not entirely discounted in naming discussions.

Thoughts please.--Kotniski (talk) 10:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay by me, though the stuff on redirects probably doesn't belong in that section. Hesperian 14:35, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I thought that too. In fact what we probably need (and what was probably originally the intention of the current first section) is an introductory section making these general points about redirects, about where the renaming process takes place, generally about how the naming convention pages are structured and purposed. Then go on to the actual rules about naming. --Kotniski (talk) 15:31, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Hesperian 23:22, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps we are putting the cart before the horse. The on-going dispute at Wikipedia talk:Naming conflict, shows that the use of the word "largely" could easily be taken out of context as has happened more than once with the word "Generally". Before we consider re-arranging this policy, perhaps instead we should re-consider renaming it (see /Archive 11#Requested move or if that is not possible adding to this policy page (as is done in WP:V) the wording of WP:Policies and guidelines "Policies haveThis policy has wide acceptance among editors ..." PBS (talk) 11:54, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

This seems to me an unrelated proposal rather than a counter-proposal. If you want to do this other thing, start a separate discussion about it. Do you object to this proposal? Hesperian 13:23, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

No they are not unrelated. At the moment "Use the most easily recognized name" is a stand alone Section. It is clear and apart from the use of "Generally" which causes some problems, it does not have the problems that some other parts of this policy has. In the section that is proposed there is the line "Rationale and specifics: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)" are those "Rationale and specifics" part of policy or a guideline? I think that until the article is renamed to make this clear (or a specific sentence is added making it clear), combining these sections with this line, will make it more difficult to keep the two clear cut. --PBS (talk)

What do you mean? These "rationale and specifics" lines (including that one) are in the policy already. Sure it's confusing, but that confusion is not affected by this proposal. We either have to go one step at a time (thus leaving a certain amount of confusion at each stage) or try and tidy the whole thing up in one go (which would doubtless be reverted as "making major changes to policy without consensus").--Kotniski (talk) 10:17, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm hesitant about the merge... here's why. Referring to the same reliable sources for determining how well recognized a name for the general reader is, or how commonly used it is, as we use to establish basis for article content makes no sense. That "clarification" was added within the last year or so. I think it should be removed, and merging these two sections might make that more difficult.

For example, a peer-reviewed academic source is great for citing article content, even if it is virtually unknown to the general public. However, the names such a work uses to refer to subjects is not helpful to us in terms of determining recognizability for the general reader, especially if usage in it conflicts with usage that is more accessible and probably more accurately reflects usage among the general audience (like popular magazines, newspapers, and, yes, even blogs). --Born2cycle (talk) 16:21, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

This too seems to be unrelated to my proposal. I just want to tidy things up, not change the effective meaning. It currently says in one place that we determine recognizability using reliable sources. It also fails to say anything to that effect in another place (the common name section) where we would expect to see it if it were true. So let's compromise by saying "largely" or "principally" or something for now - when we can actually see what we've got written, instead of a contradictory mess, we can start to work out whether the substance needs to be changed.--Kotniski (talk) 16:31, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm still hesitant. Right now, Use the most easily recognized name stands out at the uppermost level - the primary guideline of this policy if you will. The rest, as I read it, is, or should be, clarification on what exactly that means in various contexts, and I think that would be lost, if I understand your proposal. If you could show how the whole page would look after your proposal was applied, that would help. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:46, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Both sections seem to be saying the same thing; they should be merged and knitted together so it's easier for editors to make sense of them. Tony (talk) 02:09, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

(@B2C) What is being lost? What I see now is not clarification, quite the reverse - there are various bits of text which you would expect to relate to each other in some way, but don't. I'll do what you suggest and show what the page might look like after this change is made. Someone will no doubt revert it, but at least the diff will be there.--Kotniski (talk) 10:17, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

 Done Just maybe no-one will revert and we'll be able to work on this (IMO) clearer version to make other necessary improvements.--Kotniski (talk) 11:07, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Kotniski I have reverted your changes. At the moment the discussions on in this section has not reached a conclusion. You write "What do you mean? These "rationale and specifics" lines (including that one) are in the policy already." yes they are but the explain common name section they do not explain "Use the most easily recognized name" which is self contained and there is no possibility of someone misunderstanding and saying "But the guideline linked in the line "Rationale and specifics" says, and arguing that the wording of the guideline means that the policy is being misunderstood. -- PBS (talk) 11:21, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

diff

I could live with the merging of the two sections if (as I said above we either include a specific line which notes that policy takes precedence over the naming convention guidelines, or we rename this page. I know that user:Hesperian would almost certainly object to the line in the policy to make the relationship between policy and guidelines clear, because he has his own position to uphold at WP:NC (flora), so perhaps we should look again at renaming this article. -- PBS (talk) 11:30, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

But I put in such a specific line (..."but this page takes precedence over those.") Why did you revert the whole set of improvements just because of this one objection, which is answered by the new text anyway. I'm going to re-revert - please think about what you're doing and only revert things that actually make the situation worse for some reason. (And one person's objections to making something clear can't be allowed to hold up the process for everyone else - let him speak for himself anyway. I would support renaming this page, but not for the reason you state - the relation between policy and guidelines is already as clear as it can be due to this page's being marked as policy and the others not.)--Kotniski (talk) 12:07, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I have to say that Kotniski is one of our most experienced and trusted editors, with a significant track-record of improving guidelines. I don't quite see why his efforts are being met with blanket reverts; the post by Shearer above does not appear to present a substantive case against Kotniski's edit, but seems to be tangential or even irrelevant to it. Tony (talk) 12:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

recent changes

I agree with Kotniski that the location of the advice on remaning articles was unsatisfactory.

Philip Baird Shearer's justification (edit summary) for partially reinstating Anderson's attempt to downgrade the mention of MoS appears to be part of his objection to anything on the subject at MoS (see MoS talk page). The issue about "also" appears to be totally irrelevant. Please come up with a better reason here first. Tony (talk) 14:54, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I put back the version that has been here for months. If you think the reason for also is totally irrelevant why remove it? -- PBS (talk) 17:41, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

"If you think the reason for also is totally irrelevant why remove it?" I did remove "also", because it is, as I said, totally irrelevant. Please state here why you believe a WP style guide should be placed second to some article. It seems like a case of trying to force your own view of en dashes, as you have been doing at MoS talk. Tony (talk) 00:43, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

No I have not been trying to force any opinions on dashes. Quite the contrary, I don't want to force their use on anyone. What I do want to do is to make sure that Manual of Style guidelines are not mixed up in the Naming conventions. There is enough confusion with the guidelines to the Naming conventions without opening up a whole new vista. However this is a point I have made in the section #Why not link to articles? and I suggest that we carry on the consensus building exercise there and not in two places at once. --PBS (talk) 01:13, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I've copy-edited the opening, which was repetitive. Can I remind users that policy and style-guide pages need to get their point across in as little text as possible, and that the messages should aim to be plain, straight and simple.

This is not the case, for example, in these two prominent passages:

Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to articles easy and second nature.

Newbie editors should not be flummoxed; whereas I am. What is a reasonable minimum of ambiguity? What is "reasonable"? Why, a newbie might ask, should there be ambiguity at all? Is it referring to the scenario where redirect pages are required? If so, can it be more explicit, and possibly provide a brief example? Why "easy and "second nature"?

Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject.

This sentence is ambiguous; I read it the wrong way first. "Seeing" is rather loose ("determining"?): does it mean "how ... refer to the topic"? Tony (talk) 00:59, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

"Reasonable" is a word frequently used in common law and is understood, by most English speaking people from that context. As to the rest is that not what the conventions and guidelines seek to explain? -- PBS (talk) 01:13, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

No one cares what is used in common law: at issue here is whether the word adds anything to the meaning. Please identify what is lost if it is removed. As for the rest, have you read my posts above? Tony (talk) 01:42, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Reasonableness would be lost. If you mean the posts in the section #Why not link to articles? yes, but as this seems to be predominantly about another topic why not keep further comments about the MOS inclusion to that section? --PBS (talk) 01:56, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Um ... what is wrong with "with a minimum of ambiguity"? Tony (talk) 02:02, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

There is a difference between "reasonable minimum of ambiguity" and "minimum of ambiguity", the former means that some ambiguity is tolerable the latter not. --PBS (talk) 11:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

For example "minimum of ambiguity" could be read that in no cases should we have a main topic for an article with a hat-note on top as that is ambiguous. The other way it would effect many articles such as those currently under in Wikipedia:NC (names and titles) and WP:NC (ships) where the name could be pared down because the name given is not one with a minimum of ambiguity, so for example William Grosvenor would be the only person on the page Duke of Westminster who was not under their title. It would seem better to keep the phrase "reasonable minimum of ambiguity" to cover both these issues. -- PBS (talk) 11:05, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Unless good reasons are provided, I'll make these changes. On another matter, there is reference to "native" forms under "Use English words". Does "native" mean "foreign"? "Native" is an ambiguous word in this context. Tony (talk) 02:27, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I see this as a "Yes and No" -- as shown in the examples -- it can be a native name that is also used in English, which means that it is not foreign word. If however the native spelling is not used in English then it is a foreign word. --PBS (talk) 11:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

• I'm thoroughly confused, and so will almost all readers be. Can the wording be more explicit? Can you talk in the terms you've used in the post here? Do you mean "foreign words that have been adopted into English"? The sentence should be easy to comprehend. Tony (talk) 12:27, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I've recast the Use English section to remove all references to "native" - hopefully that will resolve the difficulty. About "with a (resonable) minimum of ambiguity", I would remove that phrase altogether (from the section it's in at the moment). It would belong under the "be precise when necessary" section - we don't want to keep repeating everything everywhere.--Kotniski (talk) 12:44, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Shearer, sorry, Kotniski's version is correct, and your reversion is wrong, in grammatical terms.

- Convention: Name pages in English unless a foreign form of the name is more recognizable by English-speaking readers.

Convention: Name pages in English unless a foreign form of a name is more recognizable to English-speaking readers.

It is the two words you have reverted that are wrong. Now, this blind reverting has to stop. If you object to a change, made by an experienced and skilled editor, not some fly-by newbie or vandal, then raise the matter here. Otherwise, people might think there are WP:OWNERSHIP problems on this page. Please self-revert. Tony (talk) 13:45, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

It is not a blind revert, as I did it with my eyes open ;) I made what I consider to be the minimum changes. "a name" because an entity can have more than one name (but I agree on re-reading it that "the name" is clearer within the current sentence, (although not strictly correct as there can be more than one name). As for the second change I wanted to make a bigger change but was trying to keep it to a minimum. I would like to replace "is more reconisable by/to" with "has greater recognition by". So the sentence would then read

Convention: Name pages in English unless a foreign form of the name has greater recognition by English-speaking readers.

--PBS (talk) 14:24, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Query: "The policy is supplemented and explained by the guidelines linked to this policy, which should be interpreted in conjunction with other policies, particularly the three core content policies: Verifiability, No original research and Neutral point of view." Perhaps I should be able to see it, but can someone explain why NOR is relevant to article naming? Tony (talk) 14:28, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

It is not particularly relevant, but as all three content policies should be interpreted with regards to each other and not in isolation, so no harm is done mentioning it and it may be useful. --PBS (talk) 14:49, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

What about "greater recognition by" ? --PBS (talk) 14:50, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

"greater recognition by" sounds better, Philip. What does Kotniski think?

"The", in fact, is better before "foreign" ("the foreign form of a name"). BTW, the title there is uncomfortable: "Use English words" ... but it immediately countenances the use of foreign words under a specific circumstance. I don't know how to fix this.

I noticed "... set out in detail how that objective is achieved. This page sets out Wikipedia's policy ...". This unfortunate repetition might have to wait until the "Overview" section is reassessed as a whole. Tony (talk) 15:14, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

And I beg to differ: if NOR is not particularly relevant, readers should not be told it is. The shorter the better: this is a very long document, and rather inaccessible in my view. Tony (talk) 15:15, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't object to "greater recognition by". About NOR - I guess it might come up in cases where people try to solve problems by making things up ("hey, why don't we call the country 'Ire-Land'?"), although it doesn't seem to stop them giving decidedly innovative names to monarchs.--Kotniski (talk) 15:24, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Copy-edit tag

I have added the tag because—as far as I can see—the entire page needs a language overhaul. Wherever I look, there is something to query, something that makes it hard to understand; yet editors deserve to be able to understand this policy as easily as possible.

For example, I glanced at a recent edit, of "Overview". There's a significant problem of logic:

This page sets out Wikipedia's policy on how to name articles. It is supplemented by naming guidelines. Where a naming guideline appears to conflict with this policy, the policy takes precedence (see Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines).

Now, surely a guideline must do more than appear to conflict with the policy for there to be something to resolve; otherwise, it's a matter of internal resolution within the guideline. It needs to be reworded thus: "Where a naming guideline conflicts with this policy,...", surely? Tony (talk) 14:01, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

The wording may or may not be the best but it is taken from Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines#Role and it seems to me better to keep close to the words in that policy. -- PBS (talk) 14:24, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know that the linguistic aspects are particularly bad. What I find confusing about this page is that it keeps referring off to other pages ("Naming conventions (common names)" and so on) on quite general matters, and sometimes on specific topic areas, while a whole list of details on other specific topics appear directly on this page. I would have thought that if there is too much information to fit on one page (as there undoubtedly is), then it should be the specific topics that get moved off first, and the general principles only if it's still too long.--Kotniski (talk) 14:19, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

So what is the rhyme or reason as to whether specifics appear on this page or are linked to elsewhere? Is it historical? Most confusing for readers. Tony (talk) 14:25, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

In cases like Use English, there is a specific short convention in the policy and more general guidance in the guideline, which I think is desirable and should be repeated in other areas. The general mix is simply because this document has evolved over seven years and like every other page on Wikipeia it is a mix. I do think however as there have been considerable changes to the page in the last few hours, and before any more are made we should wait for 24 hours and see if there is a general consensus for them, before more changes are made. -- PBS (talk) 14:38, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Be precise when necessary

The following statement is currently in the Be precise when necessary section, which is supposed to apply to names of articles whose most common name is primary for some other topic:

If alternative common names exist for a topic, using them may be the simplest way to disambiguate; if not, add a disambiguator in parentheses.

A beneficial feature of Wikipedia is that, for the most part, the title of a given article declares the name most commonly used to refer to the topic of that article. If an article title is disambiguated with a disambiguator in parenthesis, that benefit is still achieved. However, if we use another less common name for the title in order to disambiguate, then the benefit is lost. Perhaps we could change the above to the following:

If an alternative common name exists for a topic that is as commonly used to refer to the topic, using it may be the simplest way to disambiguate; if not, add a disambiguator in parentheses.

--Born2cycle (talk) 15:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I guess there's a balance to be struck; in some cases we might use a somewhat less common name (though still reasonably common) to achieve disambiguation; thus mirroring the way disambiguation is achieved in real life. For example, New York City might be a less common name for the city than "New York" (I don't know), but we would still prefer it to "New York (city)" or "New York, New York".--Kotniski (talk) 16:06, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Now, how to clearly say that in words? How about...

When an alternative common name exists for a topic that is somewhat less commonly used than the most common name (though still reasonably common), using the alternative may be the preferred way to disambiguate; if not, add a disambiguator to the most common name in parentheses.

--Born2cycle (talk) 18:57, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm opposed to this. I support, and I believe there is very strong consensus amongst WP:PLANTS people for, the practice of resolving ambiguity in plant common names by recourse to scientific names; e.g. [1]. I don't want to see this convention redefined in a way that would make this sensible practice controversial. Hesperian 00:01, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

This seems to me to be a case of WP:BEANS! I am very tempted to move it back as you must have known that given the comments on talk page (Talk:Wineberry (New Zealand) which you did not move) and the previous move back, that there is no obvious consensus for the move, why did you not put it up for a WP:RM as you know that NC common and NC flora contradict each other? --PBS (talk) 11:22, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I was unaware of that the previous move was disputed, not having checked the talk page. I checked the history, and saw a mess of moves involving the ludicrous title Aristotelia serrata (New Zealand). These moves were made before we had a flora naming convention. The flora naming convention is now long-established, and my move was, I believe, uncontroversial. You are, of course, at liberty to move it back. Note, however, that this would be pointless procedural wonkery, since the Google test indicates a great deal more hits for "Aristotelia serrata" than "Wineberry", despite the count for the ambiguous latter containing numerous hits (apparently the majority) for Rubus phoenicolasius. It is indisputable that the scientific name is more commonly used than the vernacular name in this case, and if you add to that the fact that the common name is ambiguous with no primary use, it is impossible to make a case for the opposition. Hesperian 11:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME cannot contradict NC flora, because it explicitly says (at WP:UCN) to use the most common name, unless another naming convention indicates otherwise. Specific agreements that have obtained consensus supersede broad principles. -GTBacchus^(talk) 12:32, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

This identifies a problem with the recent merge. Prior to the merge, there was no such limitation on "Use the most easily recognized name". That is, "Use the most easily recognized name" was policy, regardless of what more specific guideline might say. Now, that part of the policy is linked to WP:COMMONNAME, which, as you note, is limited by unless another naming convention indicates otherwise. That's a fundamental and an unacceptable change. Unless someone figure out how to fix this, I think this is grounds to revert the merge. --Born2cycle (talk) 18:52, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't see this as related to any recent merge. I've been working in RM for years, and it's been the practice there for years that specific naming conventions supersede the general rule to use common names. Far from "unacceptable", I see it as a Good Thing, and an instance of consensus in action. There are considerations such as consistency among similar articles that absolutely should take precedence over a blanket "rule" to use the most common name in each case. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:37, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Born2cycle's view that the general convention supersedes specific conventions was dispelled a few short months ago; see Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions/Archive 13#Strengthen COMMONNAME. Hesperian 23:25, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

This argument is also raging at Wikipedia:Naming conflict where a group are trying to reverse the long-standing guidance without consensus on the same bogus argument of "contradiction." I have just reverted a change PBS has made to this policy to aid his position in that dispute. Xandar 23:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I have also reverted the following added sentence that goes against the consensus decision posted by Hesperian above, namely "Where a naming guideline appears to conflict with this policy, the policy takes precedence (see Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines)." Xandar 23:46, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Use common names of persons and things

This has been removed from the policy

Convention: Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, title an article using the most common name of the person or thing that is the subject of the article (making the title unique when necessary as described in the following section and in the disambiguation guideline. Where articles have descriptive names, the given name must be neutrally worded.

There is now no mention of using common names in the policy. The convention (possibly modified) probably needs to be put back into the policy page. What do others think? -- PBS (talk) 18:27, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I think I'll go and post a request at WP:RM for this to be moved to WP:Naming contentions. — cygnis insignis 19:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I have reverted this substantial and non-consensus change to policy, which seems to have been made to influence the outcome of the struggle on the non-consensus changes that PBS, M, and others are currently trying to push through on the WP:Naming conflict page. The change to policy would remove the important exceptions provided by the Naming Conventions, and specifically removes the link to WPNaming conflict. Xandar 23:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Naming conflict is still linked to, under the section "Controversial names", which seems to be the most appropriate place.--Kotniski (talk) 09:10, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes the link is there but the wording in no longer in the convention, instead it is relegated to a guideline, I think "common name" must be in the policy. --PBS (talk) 09:44, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

That's another issue; I was talking about the link to Naming conflict. Do you think "common name" is different from "what reliable sources call the subject"? If so, we have another clash of ideas to resolve.--Kotniski (talk) 10:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Not neccesserily but in which case we need to define common name "what reliable sources call the subject" (or whatever) because common name is used throughout the policy and guidelines. But see my comment in the Draft section. This is all happening too fast. -- PBS (talk) 12:41, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I've again restored the first section of the sentence above, up to the first comma, the removcal of which would be a very significant policy change, negating much of the array of existing naming conventions. Xandar 10:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Fundamental objective

I dispute that choosing a recognisable title is the "fundamental objective" of our naming conventions. As I have said many times, we have multiple priorities here, of which accessibility is just one. Others are consistency, precision, accuracy and neutrality. One only has to look at the broad sweep of specific conventions to see that many titles are a balancing act between two or more of these priorities. To claim accessibility trumps all as our "fundamental objective" is just ridiculous. The over-emphasis on accessibility was bad enough before; now it is worse. Hesperian 23:33, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

A while back, I drafted a re-write of this convention, which was aimed at recognising the many priorities involved in choosing a name; but I abandoned it after Septentrionalis convinced me that all of these priorities flow from the "by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject." It is all very well to assess the various options in terms of consistency, precision, accuracy, neutrality, accessibility, and so on; but ultimately a decision has to be made, and there can be no better grounds for making that decision than to do whatever reliable sources do.

This being the case, the fundamental principle here is in fact "follow reliable sources". "Use a recognisable name" stems from that, as do the other priorities.

Unfortunately, recent changes to this policy have promoted "Use the most recognisable name" to the status of fundamental objective, and removed any mention of following reliable sources from the overview section. This is unacceptable.

Hesperian 23:42, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

These changes to policy should not be made without community-wide consensus. I have reverted this to the original wording too. Xandar 23:52, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Community-wide consensus is a nefarious concept – is it what you determine it means? And does it apply to the cleaning up of plain bad prose? Tony (talk) 01:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

No there's a difference between cleaning up bad prose, which is okay; and making substantive changes to policy that apply globally across the project. If a policy change is to have effect on a large number of articles, and possibly restart numerous old battles and edit-warring campaigns, then it needs wider consideration by the community. That is laid down in wikipedia policy on Policies and guidelines. Xandar 10:47, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The overview section still lacks any mention of following reliable sources. Hesperian 00:25, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I too would support wording including such a mention. Knepflerle (talk) 01:02, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

• I see that Xander has removed the word "primarily", which seems to have been added in support of Hesperian's point above. I think it was safer with "primarily", since the exclusion of all but what sources say appears to be rather restrictive for all cases. Xander has also reverted the good changes to that appalling sentence in the first section: now we're stuck back at "with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." I've asked on her/his talk page to justify "reasonable" and the inclusion of both "easy" and "second nature". We're not going to get far this way. Tony (talk) 01:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
  • "We're not going to get far this way." No. This page already suffers extremely from inertia. I'd rather not add to that by reverting, unless we are clearly heading in the wrong direction—which we are on this reliable sources issue, but otherwise not. Shall I try for a defter revert? Hesperian 01:49, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Since Xandar appeared to be acting on my above objection to the removal of the reliable sources stuff from the overview, I have undone Xandar's wholesale revert and restored what I had objected to the removal of. Hopefully this will meet Xandar's purpose without rolling back all the other changes. It is far from where I was hoping to take this, so my comments above still stand. My purpose in reverting was not so much to achieve anything on this point as to allow other threads to progress independently of it. Hesperian 01:56, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

It seems we're again developing into a situation where we have two opening sections both trying to say the same thing, in different (and not necessarily consistent) words. Can we make up our minds - to what extent does "recognizable" mean "used in reliable sources", and to what extent does it just mean "used"? And to what extent (and for what reasons) do to we want to allow particular specialized naming conventions to override the general principle of using the most recognizable name? I don't believe the answer to either of these questions can be 0% or 100% - can someone find a manner of phrasing that accurately expresses the balance that applies in practice?--Kotniski (talk) 09:17, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm still not happy with "where recognizability is determined by what reliable sources in English call the subject." I read it first as referring to a grammatical subject (which part of a name the sources regard as the grammatical subject). Can't it be "where recognizability is determined by how reliable English-language sources name the subject". Is that the intended meaning? Tony (talk) 09:37, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

There is no need to have "where recognizability is determined by what reliable sources in English call the subject" and "Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name primarily by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject." in the policy, particularly when they do not say exactly the same thing. -- PBS (talk) 09:48, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you proposing deleting one of these statements? Which one?--Kotniski (talk) 10:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed: I don't know why PBS though I was proposing that both be used side by side. If the second is the intended meaning, it is clearer and should be substituted. Tony (talk) 12:21, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Tony, I didn't I was making another point that supported what you said. But I think too much is happening too fast. See my comment below in #Draft version -- PBS (talk) 12:44, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I've again restored the original wording of "Generally" to the newly added "Fundamental principle" leading sentence, and taken out the contradictory and illogical "when a guideline appears to contradict policy" new sentence. The new wording would be moving towards a doctrinaire approach that would make the general principle of recognizable/common names into a rigid rule that would replace the currently stable and effective practices codified in the various Naming Convention sections and pages. This is "fixing" something that isn't broken, in a way that would cause significant disruption across the project. The naming convention pages have grown up for good reason - because many significant issues arise for which a one-size-fits-all approach to a naming rule doesn't work. Xandar 10:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

In a sense, the fact that naming conflicts do now cause quite significant disruption is an indicator that something is broken. It would be wrong to blame it entirely on the confused way the naming policy/guidelines are written, but it surely doesn't help. I agree that there isn't just one criterion for solving naming disagreements, although there is a principle that has always tended to hold sway in the vast majority of cases - we need to find a way of expressing that.--Kotniski (talk) 11:05, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

• Reminder - I would just remind participants in this discussion that our policies are, historically and currently, descriptions of best practices, and not statutory law.

  The fact is that we have various naming conventions operating in various domains of article-space. I say this as someone who has closed thousands of move requests over several years. Where a particular WikiProject reaches a consensus on some particular naming convention, is is de facto the case that their naming convention supersedes the general principle of WP:COMMONNAME. Changing what it says on the policy page cannot change that; it can only make the policy page more or less accurate. These are not laws, this is not court, and editing policy is not some kind of word-magic that will force reality to comply.

  If you want naming conventions to change, then go about convincing people about specific cases, and once you've done that, abstract the experience to a description of what happened. This is how it works, per WP:IAR, WP:PPP, and probably lots of other pages. -GTBacchus^(talk) 11:09, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that's what we're trying to do. Can you help? Can you suggest a wording (for the first few sections of the page) that well describes the situation as it operates, based on your experience?--Kotniski (talk) 11:17, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok, whaddya think: [2]? -GTBacchus^(talk) 11:41, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Definitely a move in the right direction as far as I'm concerned - what do others think?--Kotniski (talk) 11:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Most excellent. Hesperian 12:21, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

However, I still believe that we should be following usage in reliable source, and that this should be elevated to a core principle. Hesperian 12:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's a good one. Rather than "elevating it to" a core principle (we haven't got that power), I fully agree with "identifying it as" one. (Yes, that's pedantic. Sorry, but here we are, in pedant's paradise.) This principle seems very closely related to the recognizability one, because names used in reliable sources will tend to be recognizable because of that. -GTBacchus^(talk) 12:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that is what PMAnderson convinced me when I last attempted a draft: that it is all very well to articulate our criteria, but in the end we have to make a choice, and there can be no better choice than doing whatever reliable sources do (I think I'm misrepresenting him, but what's important here is what he convinced me of, not what he was trying to say.) For context you might want to skim Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions/Archive 12#Disputed.

Re: "names used in reliable sources will tend to be recognizable because of that." Yes, and where a more recognizable name is rejected by reliable sources, the principle of least surprise suggests we should reject it to. e.g. Kotniski's "shit" versus "feces" example. The principle of least surprise tells us to reject the more recognizable name in favor of the name preferred by reliable sources, because that is what our readers would expect us to do. Hesperian 13:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand the upshot of what you're saying. Is it that the "following reliable sources" criterion trumps all the others? The vision I've got of these criteria is that they are all taken into consideration, and individual cases are decided by consensus, with them in mind. Readers familiar with the English sundew may well be astonished by the name Drosera anglica, but WP:NC(flora) indicates the use of scientific names, for consistency. -GTBacchus^(talk) 16:21, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

No, no trumping. For months I've fought against the notion that "use the most common name" trumps all our other values; the last thing I want is for some other criterion to step into its place. What you've done here is the way it should be: we state our values, and we resolve tensions between them on a field-by-field or case-by-base basis. But I guess I see "follow reliable sources" as something different, not a criterion, but rather a resolution method. If there is a tension between our values, as in your sundew example where (granted for the sake of the discussion) recognizability is at odds with consistency, then we need some way of choosing the name that best balances our values. The argument goes that reliable sources share our values, and have to make exactly the same naming decisions, so we'll just do what they do. If the majority of reliable sources say "screw consistency; everyone knows it as the English sundew so we'll call it that too", then we ought to do the same. ... However you have given me pause, to wonder whether what I have just said is not just the same as giving one criterion a casting vote—which brings us back to trumping. I don't want to do that. Hesperian 23:26, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

If that's what we;re trying to do, then how the hell did

"Where a naming guideline appears to conflict with this policy, the policy takes precedence (see Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines)."

end up in there?! This is the antithesis of what GTBacchus is saying! And it was rejected by the community yet again just three short months ago; see Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions/Archive 13#Strengthen COMMONNAME. What gives?!

(Thankyou GTBacchus. I endorse your statement 100%.)

Hesperian 11:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it a quote from WP:Policy? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the proposal to strengthen commonname.--Kotniski (talk) 11:26, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know where it comes from. Notwithstanding the title, the "Strengthen COMMONNAME" discussion was about whether WP:NC (xxx) could override WP:NC. Hesperian 12:21, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

It is not strictly true that "our policies are, historically and currently, descriptions of best practices, and not statutory law." because they are are part of a loop back system, whatever is said in a policy tends to be reflected in the naming and structure of articles. Hence the less a policy or guideline change the closer practice tends to be to that policy. Change a policy which is usually undertaken because of inherent conflicts within the wording of the polices and guidelines and it tends to ripple out through the talk pages of articles and hence into the content of articles. -- PBS (talk) 12:55, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree that people tend to treat policies as if they are laws. What is really happening there is that people are agreeing that what has worked in the past is continuing to work. As soon as it fails to work, it is instantly negated, per IAR. The fact that many editors are oblivious to this nuance is not an indication that we should join them in oblivion. It means that we need to better articulate our policies so that they are understood as descriptions of previous broad consensus. -GTBacchus^(talk) 16:21, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

If NC is to take itself seriously as a policy, rather than a style guide, it must be no mere description of what a group of editors think are current best practices: it must set out policy. Tony (talk) 14:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

To "take itself seriously as policy"? I'm not sure what that means. I don't believe that it means becoming statutory law, or something like that. It means it reflects and records broad consensus established over many cases, over a lot of time. All any of our policies have ever done is describe best practices that we've discovered. I know there is a popular idea to treat policy as law, but I must fundamentally disagree with that conception.

Wikipedia:Ignore all rules takes itself seriously as policy, and per that policy, the other policies, in order to take themselves seriously in the same way, are not statutes, but descriptions. This is the radical notion at the heart of all Wikipedia policy. The page WP:PPP is a pretty good description of this notion. -GTBacchus^(talk) 16:21, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

What is the upshot of this sentence?

"Where a naming guideline appears to conflict with this policy, the policy takes precedence (see Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines)." I don't understand what this sentence is trying to say. What does this policy say that a specific naming guideline would conflict with? Since the policy allows that specific guidelines are often adopted for the purpose of consistency, how is a contradiction possible.

In other words, policy says that specific agreements exist and hold sway, so how do these specific agreements contradict policy? Can someone provide an example of a situation that this sentence addresses? -GTBacchus^(talk) 16:27, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Were you not involved in the WP:RS WP:V consensus building exercise just before and during the WP:ATT experience? And for that matter the attempts to harmonise the content of the main MOS guideline with subsidiary/specialised MOS guidelines?

Guidelines should complement and enhance policy, but occasionally they contradict it or could be read in such a way that they appear to contradict it. In such cases if they appear to contradict policy, then they should be read in such a way that they do not, and in the case where they do contradict policy they need to be altered (or the policy needs to be altered) so that there is no inherent contradiction. It is much better to fix contradictions than leave them (which is the easy option for policy specialists), because such contradictions cause endless debate among editors on article talk pages, AfDs etc, etc. --PBS (talk) 09:17, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I understand the general principle. I just don't see how it applies to this situation. Can you help me with that? Can you talk about any specific example, please? I'm open to learn something here. -GTBacchus^(talk) 09:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Draft version

This policy page is starting to get very unstable. There are several competing long standing points of view that are not going to be resolved quickly.

I strongly suggest that we go back to the version as it has been for may months, and move the latest into Wikipedia:Naming conventions/Draft so that the interested parties (I include myself in that list) can find wording that we all can live with.

The version I suggest going back to is 17:09, 30 August 2009 With two additions:

• add into that one the Polish convention.
• and revert out the alteration that Pmanderson made to dashes sentence.

--PBS (talk) 12:37, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree that that is a stable and fair target to revert to, but I'm opposed in general to the apparent impossibility of making any progress whatsoever on this page. Must we always keep going back? Hesperian 12:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I don't see any need to go back to an inferior version. Progress is being made here - if people object to any change, they can say what and why.--Kotniski (talk) 12:52, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

In what way was it inferior? It was stable and largely had consensus. These rapid changes show that there currently is not consensus. -- PBS (talk) 13:07, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I think the reason it was "stable" was because any attempt to improve it was knocked down, as you seem to want to do with the current attempt. The main thrust of the changes has been simple presentational improvement that no-one is objecting to, and it would be unhelpful to lose that just because of a few quibbles over wording. --Kotniski (talk) 13:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

This is not a few quibbles over wording. There are fundamental differences, and although we may be able to resolve them in a draft version we will not solve them by edit warring, on a policy page. I have explained to you my current concerns "I could live with the merging of the two sections..." and in the same posting warned another would disagree. Now it may be possible that in a draft, like a Rubik's Cube we can slot all the bits into place but we are not going to do it when everyone feels under pressure and threat that at any moment the version of the current policy is as they see it harmful to the project. Your main objective seems to be to merge sections because you think it will bring clarity to the page. It is doing that, but it is also opening up lesions because the older wording is a compromise and has some ambiguity. -- PBS (talk) 09:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I would like to clean up this page up and make it more precise and clear, but I knew that it would cause the sorts of problems that have appeared, because we are now arguing over several issues simultaneously that have not been solved in over a year of debate on them as individual issues. -- PBS (talk) 09:47, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I for one predicted that Hesperian would object to the inclusion of "Where a naming guideline appears to conflict with this policy, the policy takes precedence (see Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines)" and without that clause I object to the combining of the previously separate paragraphs, because it weakens the policy in the ways I described. Now I know that Born2cycle has problems with the use of reliable sources and that Xandar has problems with the change of wording. So I strongly suggest that we go back to a stable version and move the changes to Draft. where we can see if we can come up with a solution that pleases no one but is a working compromise that we can call a consensus. This is a very important policy page and it is not good for Wikipedia to have its core principles in a state of flux, with only a dozen editors participating in the debate.

If we go back to the earlier version, which presumably was acceptable (even if not all the aspects were liked by everyone it was a compromise that we can call a consensus). All of us in this debate and edit frenzy can debate the changes calmly and stop disrupting Wikipedia by created an unstable policy page through lots of small edits. --PBS (talk) 13:05, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

If the version you want to revert to was a novel edit, I most certainly would not consider it "acceptable". The only reason I grudgingly accept it is because it has the status of an articulation of a previous consensus.

Kotniski has restored the sentence I objected to above, and I shall leave it there for now. You stated above that "without that clause I object". Now that the clause has been restored, can we let this stick for now?

Hesperian 13:18, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Above all, there shouldn't be contradictions between this policy and guidelines. If we think there are, then let's identify them, so we can discuss how to resolve them.--Kotniski (talk) 13:23, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I suppose that if this policy is flexible enough, it is difficult for a guideline to contradict it. A tried and true test case is Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom. I think we can agree that this title is a triumph of precision and consistency over recognizability and prevalence in reliable sources. Under the previous version, it was in violation of the policy, which proved that the policy failed to reflect consensus. Under the current version of this policy, I suppose it is not in contradiction, since it is clearly covered by "In cases where these criteria are in conflict with one another, the resulting questions are resolved by discussion towards building consensus, always with these principles in mind." Hesperian 13:31, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I certainly don't agree that that name is a triumph of anything except stubborn blind rule-mongering;) But I can't deny that it reflects the consensus, or at least the status quo, so this policy has to be worded so that it acknowledges that kind of situation.--Kotniski (talk) 14:04, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

(reply to PBS above) I'm not convinced that this discussion and these edits are "disrupting Wikipedia". Which article is unstable on account of these edits? What stability outside of the paragraphs we're tinkering with is jeopardized? Disruption has to be real disruption before it bothers me one bit. In particular, if no article is affected, then Wikipedia is not disrupted. Sorry. -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:15, 7 September 2009 (UTC)Not actually sorry... just a figure of speech

• Oh, no going back, please: sends a bad signal to everyone, including those who are likely to do the most work in fixing up the page. Yes, a draft would be sensible, starting with the current version of NC. Tony (talk) 14:20, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I have reverted the sentence "Where a naming guideline appears to conflict with this policy, the policy takes precedence (see Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines)" from the latest version since it is a)non-consensus, and seems actually to go against the consensus reached a few weeks ago on this page, b) confusing c) advocates chaos in Naming Convention pages by appearing to giving people who "think" policies are in contradiction free rein to assault them, and d) would tend to make all Naming Convention pages redundant, since their sole purpose is to provide alternate or supplemental guidance for specific situations. That is a substantive change that requires community consensus. Xandar 23:19, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I still don't know what that sentence even means, or what problem it's meant to address. Can anyone answer the question I posted above at #What is the upshot of this sentence?? (This is not to say I oppose its inclusion, just that I don't get it. Sometimes I'm dense.) -GTBacchus^(talk) 08:57, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I have replied above but Xandar's answer should prove the point. See aboveDoes WP:NC defer? for more on this. -- PBS (talk) 09:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I have replied to your reply. I'd still like to see it in concrete terms, as it applies to this policy. Have you got an example. That would be ideal, at least for the sweet understanding I'm trying to gain here. -GTBacchus^(talk) 09:42, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

What is not concrete about that one? If it were not concrete why is Xandar reverting out the sentence? -- PBS (talk) 09:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea why Xandar does anything that he does. I would be happy to hear from him a concrete example (i.e. talk about a specific title of a specific article) of what is at stake with this sentence. If either of you do that, I'll be very happy. Until then, it seems to me to be an argument about sand. -GTBacchus^(talk) 12:03, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The sentence is both vague and disruptive. I know why some people want to include it here - because of a continuing argument at WP:Naming conflict, where certain people are wanting to radically change the policy there because they allege mistakenly that it conflicts with "Use most easily-recognised name". The general policy that policies outrank guidlines is stated elsewhere. What some people want to do is restate it here and particularise it to the naming convention guidelines. What that does is remove the position the Naming Conventions have as extensions to and exceptions from the general advice. That is a major and substantial change of policy which would have the effect of making the naming conventions redundant. In addition the statement goes further and adds "appears to contradict", giving anyone carte blanche to claim a contradiction and start edit-wars. Xandar 10:46, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Xandar, I don't care in the least "why some people want to include it here", unless I can understand what specifically is at stake. What article are you (or PBS) talking about? Which naming dispute hangs in the balance?

I disagree that a sentence in policy gives anyone carte blache to do anything. That's because, per IAR, these policies are not laws, and I refuse to go along with a lawyerly interpretation of them as such. Editing words on policy pages does not change policy, but it might make the policy page more or less accurate. This is important to understand. -GTBacchus^(talk) 12:03, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Kotniski, PBS and some others are wanting to radically alter the WP:Naming conflict convention by removing the provisions on self-identifying entities; the excuse being that it "Conflicts with" the use common names policy here. WHen pointed out that this policy page does not provide a rigid rule, and specifically sets opt-outs through the recognised naming conventions, we suddenly find that those very sentences are suddenly being altered and negated on this page by some of the same people. Coincidence? Xandar 22:58, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

• Gentlemen: are we going to use the drafting page I created? Did I do the wrong thing? Please see the bottom section for the link. Tony (talk) 11:24, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I think you did the right thing, but I want to revert to the stable version of the page that I suggested before with the additional minor modifications, otherwise the edit war will continue on this policy page. -- PBS (talk) 13:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I think following GTBacchus' excellent rewrite we don't need to fear an edit war, and there is no reason to go back to any previous version. The only urgent dispute at the moment seems to be whether to include the sentence about policies trumping guidelines - and since that's only a quote from another policy, it seems to be on the one hand uncontroversial, and on the other unnecessary (since it's there at the other policy page anyway). So whether we include it or not seems a fairly unimportant question. Of far greater importance is resolving the remaining contradictions (maybe there aren't any, but I fear there may be many) between the policy page and the various guideline pages, and generally making it all into one coherent whole. --Kotniski (talk) 13:32, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Kotniski. May I stress the urgency of not edit-warring on this page? Tony (talk) 02:39, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't see an edit war here, and I must say that is mostly due to PBS's admirable restraint in not reverting, despite arguing that he should. There's an amusing irony there: PBS's restraint has delivered us a new (albeit temporary) stability, and if PBS does revert now, I'll be hard pressed to figure out whether he is preventing or initiating an edit war. :-) Hesperian 02:57, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Reliable sources

I'm astonished that anyone would question the need for reliable sources for article names. I'm not talking about the issues over what constitutes a reliable source for an individual article, but rather the general principle.

Certainly there are no discrete states, but I see three clear modes: reliable sources, unreliable sources, and original research. It's amusing to consider the second ("Wikipedia endorses unreliable sources—film at eleven"), but I don't see it ever gaining any traction. Some of the statements that others have made, I could construe to support original research, but I'm content to assume that's not what they meant. All that is left is reliable sources.

I'm not saying that a new article can't be created unless its name can be sourced. I'm not even suggesting {{fact}}-tagging article names (I'm not even sure the software supports it). What I'm saying is that, in any disagreement over an article name, a reliable source should always trump original research or an unreliable source, and that, in any contest between sourced names, reliability must be one of the criteria.

Is that too much to ask?--Curtis Clark (talk) 16:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Who is questioning the need for reliable sources? I'm following the discussion, and I seem to have missed that bit. I thought we all agreed that it's a fundamental principle. Am I missing something? -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I used the find tool in Firefox and was able to follow the general threads without any trouble. I'd hate to have to step through history to find the diffs, but I suppose I could if I had to. Born2cycle in my estimation has long been an opponent of reliable sources if they support a technical name over a name that he feels the is correct "common" name, and M made a statement above against reliable sources, although seems to have accepted them later. Besides myself, Hesperian and PBS have indicated that "reliable sources" should be a requirement. Considering how often it is mentioned, it would be nice if we could decide to include it first, and then determine how to weigh it against other factors.--Curtis Clark (talk) 21:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The find tool in Firefox? Showoff. :p

It is in the policy now, so asking that we decide to include it... I think we've got you covered. I agree that it's fundamental (I personally added it to the policy this evening - did your fancy-dancy "find tool" reveal that? ;) ), and anyone disagreeing seems to have the short end. Do you think it should be more emphasized than it is now? -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:19, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I guess I'm just weary from past battles. Sorry.--Curtis Clark (talk) 22:43, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Eh, that happens around here. Keep the faith. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:45, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

As I understand Born2cycle's argument it is not that B2C disagrees with using reliable sources, it is more to do with the relative weighting between sources. It is quite often the case that experts in a field use a term which is only used by specialists in that field—the use of specalised language jargon/slang as a group identifier is itself a well studied academic topic in its own right—and in a specialist academic journal they may well use a term that non specialists could recognise easily, (we do it here with abbreviations like WP:RM, WP:V, NPOV etc).

If for some reason such a topic comes up in widely read newspaper, just one article in a popular newspaper using a different name is more likely to be the name known to more people than the name used in the specalised academic source with a small readership. For this reason B2C argues that widely read or broadcast sources, are more reliable for naming an article than academic journals — the reverse of what WP:SOURCES suggests.

Last year when added the rule about use the reliable sources to WP:NC, we could have written a separate set for WP:NC, and I considered this at the time and rejected it, because

• firstly I could not think of a simple obvious algorithm and that we could use that stated a mention in the NYT was weighted by "n" while a mention in "obscure academic journal" was weighted by "a", and were would that put a mention of a topic in The Sun ... .
• secondly it added a level of complexity in editorial maintenance of the section WP:NC#SOURCES with the endless arguments over how close it should be to WP:V#SOURCES, that the gains it would have given us for a small minority of articles where a common name weighted by the readership of publications, differed from the common name used in publications, and

So I came to the conclusion that although I could fully understand B2C's argument, I could not see a simple way to implement it and editorial maintenance would be considerable, so using the KISS principle linking to WP:SOURCES was the best solution, although I could see that following the reliable sources as defined in WP:V occasionally an article would end up at a name that was not the common name, in that case I would hope that a local consensus would form to WP:IAR when naming it. -- PBS (talk) 09:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Having watched my own conversations with reporters distorted in print, and seen plenty of examples of newspaper articles with misinformation about a variety of scientific concepts, I'm leery of using a single newspaper article as a reference for the name or nature of any technical subject. There's the danger of giving the Wikipedia stamp of approval to a misstatement. As several of us have pointed out, another principle of article naming is accuracy—I hope we all agree that no article should have a name that is flat-out wrong. But in the haste to choose a "common" name over a "technical" one for a subject that is not widely known, there is a real danger of adopting someone else's mistake.Curtis Clark (talk) 13:58, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

PBS understands my argument, though I've never said anything about a single newspaper article trumping all academic sources, which is the one point Curtis latched onto. But, in general, yes, assuming the name usage in one large newspaper (NY Times, WSJ, London Times, etc.) article is not based on misinformation (which can be easily verified in the case of name usage with a google test), it is probably a better indicator of what name would be most likely recognized by general readers than would more academic sources. In fact, usage in academic sources is arguably not the third party reference that we prefer in Wikipedia, especially with respect to name usage.

Further, and this is the controversial part of my argument, I contend that usage in so-called "unreliable" sources, like blogs, myspace and facebook, forum posts, and user posts on news websites, is actually more reliable -- not individually but taken in aggregate -- with respect to determining what names are most commonly used, and most likely to be recognized by the reader, than are the "reliable sources" we use to substantiate article content. --Born2cycle (talk) 20:05, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

All this seems to me to be a really good way to perpetuate misinformation. If, for example, I wanted to carry out a scholarly study of the common name of a plant species, I'd go around to various people across the area where it occurs with a sample and ask them "What's this called?" I'd thereby get a big sample size; I might end up with multiple common names, but I'd be able to say "farmers call it 'this', except in the rice-farming areas around the delta, where they call it 'that'; cattle ranchers call it 'the other thing', and landscapers call it 'crapola'." Which of those names would be used for the Wikipedia article would most likely still be discussed with some fervor, but at least there would be evidence to be brought to bear.

But let's say that a cattle rancher's citified son wrote a blog in which he talked about his youth and the smell of flowering 'the other thing'. He looked in a wildflower book, and it best seemed to match Cosa otra, so he included that binomial as well. People googling for Cosa otra came upon the name 'the other thing' and used that as the common name for the plant. After a while, there might be a few dozen references. A newspaper might pick it up, and on the basis of googling (and especially because of the Wikipedia article of the same name, which Born2cycle had moved from Cosa otra, proclaimed that its common name was 'the other thing').

Clearly the information has flowed through a bottleneck, and there is but a single data point. Most of the people who create the online content might never have seen 'the other thing' in the wild, and at any rate there are fewer of them than of farmers who call it 'this' or 'that'. But all this is moot, because one of those cabalistic specialists identified plants called 'this', 'that', and 'the other thing' (oh, and 'crapola', too), by using technical keys and comparing with museum specimens, including the type, and found that they were all Cosa esculenta, not Cosa otra.

If a reader outside the range of Cosa otra were to recognize any name at all, it would be 'the other thing', because that's what's on the web. And one could argue that that common name is "right"; after all, people use it. And perhaps the opinion of the rice farmer ("That ain't no 'that'! Why, hell, that there plant don't even grow round these parts.") doesn't count for anything. But I think Wikipedia and the world have lost, rather than gained, by following this path.

And if this seems contrived, I've witnessed all the individual pieces, and it's perhaps unlikely but certainly possible that they could all co-occur.--Curtis Clark (talk) 04:58, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

It might help that our policies are not a suicide pact. If we adopt some standard, and that standard leads to clear misinformation, then the standard is instantly negated in that case, and we revisit the question with regard to the particular example. Does that make any difference, as you see it? -GTBacchus^(talk) 05:03, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

"Instantly negating" the standard is only possible if everyone agrees to do so. A single editor waving a standard seems to count more that an handful with an alternate solution, and, no matter how it turns out, time is spent that could otherwise go into editing.

One of the recurring issues with the names of plant articles has been disagreement over what constitutes misinformation, and an impetus for the current guideline was to rein in the endless quibbling. An accomplished editor asserted that common names used by him and others in Britain were correct, and that common names used elsewhere (although documented in reliable sources) were misinformation; in part as a result of that most often being against consensus, he left Wikipedia.

Hesperian has written until his extremities turned blue about the need to balance all criteria in naming: accuracy, unambiguity, and NPOV being as important as recognizability. Technical names often have an edge in every area but recognizability, and so Born2cycle's deprecation of them in favor of common names elevates recognizability over the other criteria. I object to that.--Curtis Clark (talk) 13:53, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Spaced dashes

Should en dashes be spaced in titles? Specifically, see Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Infobox Bilateral relations. — RockMFR 00:53, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

MoS: Space the en dash if there's an internal space within one or both items; otherwise, unspaced. In essence, the appearance of the dash "opens up" with the items. Tony (talk) 01:05, 8 September 2009 (UTC) PS That list looks perfect, except for "Iran–United Kingdom relations", which should be "Iran – United Kingdom relations". Note that when one item is a particle only ("Sino") rather than a full word ("Chinese"), a hyphen is used instead.Tony (talk) 01:07, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes they should. I'm glad to say that most of those articles comply with that guideline, since I was the one who moved them. Dabomb87 (talk) 12:41, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Draft policy rewrite page

Let's deal with it here, please? Tony (talk) 01:32, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Concerns

I'm wondering about the following issues:

1. Ease of searching and linking. Is this really one of the key criteria? I mean, obviously we want searching and linking to be easy, but when we have redirects, is it really that important (separately from recognizability, which we already list) for the article name to match the most common search/link term?
2. Precision. It works both ways - we sometimes have problems with people being overprecise in article names. Perhaps that side of the coin should also be alluded to in the "Precision" paragraph under Overview?
3. The "User the most recognized name" section says "except where other Wikipedia naming conventions say otherwise", with WP naming conventions linked to the section of the page called "Speific conventions and other guidelines". Is this really what we mean? It seems to be a relic of a trumping model, which implies "this list of rules trump common name, and common name trumps everything else". If that were the case then we wouldn't even bother listing the other guidelines in between (Use English and so on) or the other criteria at the top. What is it we're actually trying to say here?--Kotniski (talk) 13:55, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Taking you second point yes precision works both ways we have discussed that before which is why I think that "reasonable" should be in front of "reasonable minimum of ambiguity,".

Taking your third point that is what is say now because the sections have been combined but if we go back to a previous wording:

Convention: Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, title an article using the most common name of the person or thing that is the subject of the article (making the title unique when necessary as described in the following section and in the disambiguation guideline. Where articles have descriptive names, the given name must be neutrally worded.

I have repeatedly argued that the conventions were only contained in this policy document the rest are guidelines to the policy not conventions. -- PBS (talk) 17:32, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I like that wording better than the sentence that I still don't understand (still waiting for replies above from PBS or Xandar). That's something I've seen applied (indeed, have myself applied) in the field, and I "get it". Use COMMONNAME, unless some other naming convention indicates otherwise. Very simple, boom. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:02, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes. And PBS is wrong to try to argue that there are separate Naming Conventions, and "Guidelines" to Naming Conventions. This is untrue. All the naming conventions are guidelines with equal status, and they are referred to on this page and listed atthis Category page. Xandar 23:08, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand this preoccupation with the "status" of pages. That's a bunch of hoodoo. Pages in the project space are accurate insofar as they describe best practices, and otherwise, they're inaccurate. They're not laws. Any caviling over "this is a policy but that is a guideline" is simply irresponsible. -GTBacchus^(talk) 07:37, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Well the key impulse behind the desire to remove the sentence in question is making the Naming Conventions of rigid subsidiary status to the general rule set out on this page of "use common names". Xandar 11:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you describing your impulse, or someone else's? If it's someone else's I won't believe you. Well, if you can tell me what number I'm thinking of, I'll believe you. ;)hint: it's not an integer! There is no such thing on Wikipedia as "rigid subsidiary status", and nobody can wish such a cancer into existence, thank Zeus. -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:10, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree that "except whether other accepted naming conventions give a different indication, do this:" is a relic of the trumping model. We've moved away from that. It doesn't need to be rephrased. It needs to be removed. But the main problem there is that "Use the most recognised name" is still big-noting itself. Hesperian 23:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Kotinski, PBS is correct in that your concern (3), The "Use the most recognized name" section says "except where other Wikipedia naming conventions say otherwise", did not apply prior to your recent merge. Prior to the recent merge there was no mention of "except where other Wikipedia naming conventions say otherwise" in that section. As I said above, I believe this in and of itself is grounds for reverting that merge, unless that limitation is removed from the current version. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:48, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Things do not "apply" or not according to whether they are written on a policy page. That is a superstition that we need to root out. It is de facto the case, per thousands of completed move requests, that specific conventions tend to take precedence over more general ones, while at the same time being informed by the more general ones. Note the intentionally non-legalistic wording "tend to take precedence over". These are not laws, and altering words on a policy page does not change reality. For that, you actually have to convince people of things, in context. "In context" means, not here, but at WikiProjects and on specific articles. -GTBacchus^(talk) 07:37, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I endorse Born2cycle's revert. The "except where" clause is now explicit elsewhere, and implicit in the tone of the page, so it needn't be spelled out again specifically in this section. Hesperian 00:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm totally confused now - you're all telling me that a phrase we have now wasn't there before, then quoting a passage that shows that it was there before. And you're all talking about merges when what happened in the end wasn't a merge, but a rewriting of two sections (the first one more so than the second). Perhaps we could stop looking at the history and look at what we have on the page now - what is illogical or inaccurate about it and therefore needs to be changed? In particular, what can we say about the actual order of precedence in which the various "rules" are applied? Do people accept GTB's statement that specific conventions tend to take precedence over more general ones?--Kotniski (talk) 10:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it is a matter of precedence; this is another part of the superstition GTBacchus was talking about. If someone comes here looking for the consensus view on how they should name a particular article, they are more likely to get that from a specific, tailored convention (where one exists), than from a broadly applicable, general one. Hesperian 10:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

When I said "take precedence", I didn't mean in a legal sense. I just meant that people tend to follow the specific over the general. It's an observation, not... something else. -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:10, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, my head is spinning. To respond to one little point above, PBS, the word "reasonable" has no place in a policy statement, at least not in that clause. Reasonable in whose opinion? The common-law legal test of "the reasonable person" is irrelevant here. Tony (talk) 10:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

See my comment further up this page which starts For example "minimum of ambiguity" ... --PBS (talk) 12:02, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I have again restored the important passage that Kotniski is so desperate to remove from this policy without consensus.

Convention: Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, title an article using the most common name of the person or thing that is the subject of the article...

It is important and quite clear - even though it interferes with some people's intentions for the Wikpedia:Naming conflict and other pages. Such a major policy change requires community wide consensus. Xandar 11:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that by restoring that sentence you convert a principle back into a rule, making it more binding on the specific conventions, not less. I really think you're bidding against yourself here. Hesperian 11:22, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Particularly since the section it links to is quite clearly another section of this page, and has nothing to do with Naming Conflict (which is a different page). I think your (Xandar's) own obsession with that page is making you assume that everything anyone else does is somehow connected with that page.--Kotniski (talk) 11:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

(Or indeed that anyone who seems to be against you can be referred to as "Kotniski" in edit summaries.)--Kotniski (talk) 11:33, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Nobody has the power to "convert into a rule" anything. Nobody can create a rule on Wikipedia. Im-freakin'-possible. If you believe you can do that, or that anyone else can, that's a form of cancer. I wouldn't keep harping on this point, except I think it's incredibly important. -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:10, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Editing break in "Concerns" section

At the moment this conversation is yet converging on an agreed solution. In the mean time people are editing in and out their preferred wording. I have resisted joining into that process, but as my comments should have made clear I am not at all happy with some of them. So I think it is better that we go back to an earlier version which reflects the consensus as it has been for many months with all the ambiguity that it has.

I have placed the latest changes to the text into Tony's Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions/Draft policy rewrite and reverted the page as I suggested above. 17:09, 30 August 2009 With two additions:

• add into that one the Polish convention.
• and revert out the alteration that Pmanderson made to dashes sentence.

I hope that is a reasonable compromise as we attempt to reach a consensus on a new version. To begin with I suggest that we copy this section to another talk page and continue the conversation there (perhapse Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions/Draft policy rewrite/Talk but some one else who is more familiar with such things may be able to suggest a better name).

The editing and conversations over the last few days have shown that at least among the few editors who have been editing here that there are great tensions over the best way forward and I hope that with good will we can come up with wording that will satisfy everyone. But I would ask people to refrain from editing the Policy Page until we have a consensus for a clear change. And I suggest that we salami slice the problem as it will make it easier to reach a consensus. For example I think that the change Tony made to the lead paragraph should be reinstated into policy. That could be done if no one objects to the change. We can then move onto other areas and see if there is consensus. -- PBS (talk) 11:43, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any justification for doing what you just did. When you suggested doing it no-one supported it; it shows disrespect for other editors to revert their efforts for no reason. There is no great tension about the current version (any more than there was over the previous one) - we're working on improving it. Please discuss specific points or make bold edits if there are things you're not happy about.--Kotniski (talk) 11:51, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I have made a bold edit, and I think that your current suggestion of make bold edits to the policy page, when I know that there are people who disagree with me currently, instead of trying to reach a consensus for change first is not a good idea as it leads to edit warring. -- PBS (talk) 11:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

"There is no great tension about the current version (any more than there was over the previous one)" Yes there is great tension, that is obvious when we can not even agree if a sentence copied from WP:policies and guidelines should or should not be in this policy. --PBS (talk) 11:57, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Lets wait and see what other editors think. Because at the moment I do not see any support for the version that you are wishing to keep. -- PBS (talk) 11:52, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I also don't see any justification. Everyone on this page appears to be happy with the broad direction we've taken this, except Philip Baird Shearer, and I've yet to see Philip Baird Shearer be happy with any change to this page. As far as I can tell, there is far more support for the new version than for the old. The only dispute is over a single sentence, and even with respect to that sentence there is agreement amongst the disputants that the general convention should deal in principles rather than hard rules. This is essentially a spillover from another dispute, not a disagreement with the thrust of the changes recently made here. As I said above, I'm inclined to see a revert like this as precipitating an edit war, rather than preventing it. Ultimately it is a revert to PBS's preferred version, against the wishes of at least four other editors. In that context, it was reckless, not bold. Hesperian 12:00, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I quite agree. I had been pleased to note that PBS had ceased his WP:OWNer-like behaviour on this page recently - clearly I was too optimistic. Since no-one is willing to stand up to him, let's at least move this page to his user space so it can be clear to everyone whose views it represents.--Kotniski (talk) 12:04, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Hesperian. It is not over a single sentence. There is no mention in the policy of what "common name" means. Without that in the policy, common name is relegated to nothing more than any other guideline. AFAICT that is not something that most people that have been editing this page want although I can see that you Hesperian and Xandar may wish that to be true. If such a change is to be made intentionally then a lot more than the editors currently involved in this disillusion should indicate if they are in favour or not as it fundamentally changes the meaning of this policy, from where it has stood for many years. -PBS (talk) 12:08, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Kotniski, please do not assume bad faith. I am in favour of change, but it must be consensual change, and not edit warring change. I happen to think that combining the two sections is a good idea. But the bits have not slotted into place and we are a long way from agreement on them. I suggest we work on the Draft and then put it in place, when there is agreement. -- PBS (talk) 12:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

"Work on the Draft"? No, this is a trap into which I will not fall again. It is beyond my ability to present Philip Baird Shearer with a perfect rewrite, and in the face of an imperfect improvement Philip Baird Shearer will forever quibble, and forever declare the absense of consensus. Philip Baird Shearer will be able to declare the absense of consensus for all eternity because ultimately the only way to test consensus is to do what we have done: edit the policy, and see if it sticks; and that Philip Baird Shearer will not permit. Thus consensus is held hostage to the whims of Philip Baird Shearer, by the simple expedient of a willingness to repreatedly revert in the name of "no consensus" no matter how well things seem to be going, no matter how happy with things everyone else is. Hesperian 12:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

You are assuming bad faith. Just as one example I did not approve the the changes that user user:M made to "Specific conventions and other guidelines" but I left them in place, and only reverted because I was asked to by another editor who thought I had made them. I am willing to work on a draft version in good faith. But I object to changes being made here that in my opinion fundamentalist alter these conventions. -- PBS (talk) 12:31, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

"You are assuming bad faith." Not at all. I believe you have Wikipedia's best interests at heart. But that doesn't make your rigid conservatism any less frustrating. I will not again fall into the trap of letting you decide when to give a change the green light, because for you, the light never ever changes. Hesperian 12:41, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

In cases where one feels that others are assuming bad faith, it is often more effective and de-escalatory to simply explain one's intentions than to accuse the other party. -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

(multiple edit conflicts) In response to PBS's most recent revert, with edit summary "There is no consensus for this version. Take it to the talk page. I think that I do have support", I can only observe that of the admittedly small number of people who are paying attention here, Hesperian, Kotniski, GTBacchus and Curtis Clark all support the rewrite. Tony1 and Born2cycle are little harder to read, but certainly neither of them have come out against it. PBS alone opposes it, and at this point he has entered into very little discussion about it, other than to repeatedly express the opinion that there is not yet consensus for it. PBS has expressed his desire for stability, but evidence suggests that he alone is standing in the way of stability. After all, in the absense of PBS's unexplained wholesale reverts, we would merely be quibbling over the inclusion of a largely unimportant sentence. Hesperian 12:15, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

How can mention of "common name" be worked into the Draft version of General principles? --PBS (talk) 12:24, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Very easily - why are you suddenly making an issue of this? It would have just been one sentence to change - no need to reverse the whole thing. --Kotniski (talk) 12:30, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I have not suddenly made an issue of it. I have made this clear before, it is linked to the sentence from policy and guidelines. This is an issue at the nub of this recent dissagreement. --PBS (talk) 12:34, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand it then. Does my last edit satisfy you? If not, what do you think is still missing?--Kotniski (talk) 12:37, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

It is becoming more and more difficult to discuss changes in a calm manner when changes like this [3] are being made on the fly. Now I agree with the former wording. I do not agree with the latter. The former is much closer to the original paragraph. The latter is not. The latter only applied to common names. Now it delegates the whole of the policy to guidelines, if it is not coupled to the sentence from policy and guidelines. So what do I do revert out those changes, and edit war over them? Much better to discuss such large changes to a draft, than to the policy page-- PBS (talk) 12:49, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

If you are saying that you are opposed to the inclusion of the "Except where other accepted... " bit, then you agree with Hesperian, Kotniski, GTBacchus and Born2cycle—another case of something agreed to by a broad cross-section of editors. The only person who insists on this being included is Xandar, and not because he disagrees with the broad thrust of this revision; rather because he believes its removal impacts an unrelated dispute. I'm going to take it out. Hesperian 12:57, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

PBS, if you find it difficult to discuss in a calm manner, I quite sincerely suggest a walk somewhere out-of-doors. If it's not raining or otherwise inhospitable, it is often the case that exposure to a bit of nature does wonders for our nerves. I plan to stroll down to the Adriatic in an hour or so, taking advantage of the fact that I'm temporarily working in an exceptionally beautiful locale. Last night's sunset was sublime. :) -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:25, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflicts!! grrr) I don't believe that there is a difference between "most recognizable name" and "most common name". I am aware that Born2cycle does, but I believe this is discovered poetry; that is, I believe Born2cycle is finding distinctions in the text that were not in the mind of the text's author. Be that as it may, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) does, I believe, have broad community support, and it certainly should be linked from the main convention. And in fact it is: at the bottom of the "most recognizable name" section, there is a line that says: "Rationale and specifics: See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)." Is this unsatisfactory? Do you believe that there is a distinction between "most recognizable" and "most common"? If so, is this distinction important? If so, is the distinction large enough to warrant treatment in separate sections? I for one would willingly see these two sections split out again, pending consensus on how to handle it, so long as the general thrust of the rewrite is retained. Hesperian 12:41, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

You draw that distiction yourself when you move pages like Wineberry (New Zealand), surly you would argue that it is the most "most recognizable name" even if it is not the most common. --PBS (talk) 12:49, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

No, I argue that the scientific name is both most recognizable and most common; and I think the "most common" name and the "most recognisable" name will pretty much always coincide, so long as "most recognizable" and "most common" are both assessed "by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject." And most importantly, I think the distinction didn't exist in the minds of the people who wrote it. These were intended to be two ways of saying the same thing, and somehow a distinction was found, and some people argued to preserve that distinction. Hesperian 13:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

BTW Hesperian what do you think is "the general thrust of the rewrite" --PBS (talk) 12:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Articulation of principles rather than enumeration of rules. Hesperian 13:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

PBS, hi! This conversation moves fast, so I may have missed it, but I still haven't seen an example of what the hell the contentious sentence is actually about. Can anyone tell me about a specific article whose title would change depending on whether that sentence is considered to be "in effect"? Please? -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:10, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

It is a number of things (which combined cause problems like the removal of common name from the general guidance) another is s phrase that has crept in the last day or so "while others contain additional conventions by subject area. " -- PBS (talk) 17:06, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Huh? What is remotely contentious about that phrase? Isn't it just a statement of fact? Can it be phrased better?--Kotniski (talk) 17:49, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Boy, does that ever not answer the question I asked. Apparently nobody knows of any practical upshot of the sentence under debate. That's sad. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I have AGAIN had to restore the sentence in question. THERE IS NO CONSENSUS FOR ITS REMOVAL - and certainly no consensus across the community. I wonder why people are so anxious to remove this safeguard - particularly those who are currently trying to radically change the Naming conflict guidance without Consensus - and are using as their sole argument the so-called "contradiction" between these pages. One of the chief among these is Kotniski. Hesperian twists my words, when I bring this point up. Yes. This phrase IS important in the dispute Kotniski began on the other page - however it is equally important to maintain the clear position that Naming Conventions document valid exceptions to "Use common name."

If people are worried about turning the section back, into a rule by the phrasing, as Hesperian claims to be, we can alter the phrasing slightly, BUT IT NEEDS TO STATE CLEARLY that the Naming Conventions provide valid exceptions to "use common name." However trying to make a major policy change without cross-community consensus in the manner some seem to want to, is invalid. Xandar 20:25, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Again, no living human has the power to change policy by editing words on a page here. Until you understand that, I'm going to keep repeating it. Editing policy pages does not change policy. Policy exists out there in the world. This page is a more-or-less accurate reflection of that. If you understood this, you'd stop edit-warring, and take a more calm approach to this issue. Do that.

I note that you still fail to provide any practical upshot of this sentence that seems so important to you. Is this because you are unable, or because you are ignoring the question, or is it something else? -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

GTBachhus, I wish you'd give your advice to Kotniski and his allies - who keep saying that WP:Naming conflict has to be changed because it "Contradicts" this policy. Then he changes this policy to eliminate the point that refutes his argument. If this page is so unimportant - then why is there such sudden anxiety and determination to change it without proper discussion and consensus? And I am not the one edit-warring. I am restoring the long-term policy as re-affirmed just weeks ago, that Naming Conventions provide exceptions to the general policy. The people edit-warring are thoise who keep re-applying a non-consensus and substantive change to this policy without the required community-consensus. That is what is against Wikipedia policy and practice. Perhaps you will now tell them to stop?

As to the practical "upshot", the attempt to change the naming convention already referred to, using this very paragraph by some of the people proposing the change here is practical enough. What more do you require? Also I would like to ask the reason for the urgent desire to remove this sentence that has stood for so long. Xandar 20:59, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Have you not noticed that I'm singing the same song to everyone here? You're not special; don't worry. What I'm looking for, and what I've asked for repeatedly without any response is an actual name of an actual article that would change based on the inclusion or exclusion of the controversial sentence. Show me the MF'n money, already! What page in the encyclopedia depends on this sentence? Just give me one (1), and you'll have done infinitely more than anybody else.

The idea that you're not edit warring if your reverts resemble the past is asinine. Reverting anything repeatedly is edit warring even if consensus is on your side, which in this case is not at all clear. In an edit war, both sides are edit warring. This is trivial stuff; where have you been, man?

The stupid anxiety that you ask about comes from people believing in the stupid superstition that editing these pages is a form of stupid word-magic that changes reality. It's cancer if you say it, and it's cancer if anyone else says it. If you think I'm just picking on you, then you're not paying attention. I've made this same point tonight to a half-dozen different people. -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:06, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay. I'll give you some examples. This particular paragraph is talking about exceptions provided by the various naming convention pages. The disputed text reads roughly: "Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions indicate otherwise, use the most common names etc.," Removing the clearly stated exception of the Naming Conventions, allows it to be argued that A) The individual naming conventions should be changed to wholly prioritise "Use common names" above other specific considerations. (That was specifically added to this re-write at one point.) and B) The basic policy trumps the Naming Conventions. Therefore, the name of articles concerned with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints should be moved to those using the more Common, but often offensive name Mormon Church. The article currently at First Nations, should on that basis be moved to Canadian Indians, since that is the more commonly used although more offensive term. Similar issues arise with Dalits, Romany, Indigenous Australians etc, all of which use self-identifying rather than "common" names, which are either inaccurate or offensive. Republic of China is not the "most common name" for Taiwan, but it is used because it is what the nation calls itself. There is also Kolkata vs Calcutta, Ho Chi Minh City v Saigon. The issue of recent changes of names is also affected, since it takes some time for "reliable sources to reflect a change of name of an entity or individual. There are similar issues in other fields such as Biology. The disputed sentence helps prevent unecessary misunderstandings and quarrels over these issues, clearly derogating many of them to the naming conventions. Xandar 21:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Xandar, I thank you. I agree that Kolkata should not be moved to Calcutta, despite the commonness and recognizability of the latter. -GTBacchus^(talk) 04:53, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

We use Kolkata, as WP:NCGN says, on the basis of two arguments; that Indian English is a national variety of English, and that the Indian usage is predominantly Kolkata.

As far as I can tell, there has been no evidence of the second, aside from the fervor of some Indian editors; but it may well be true all the same. Such a claim seems to be false of some Indian cities, which is why we still use Bangalore, not Bengaluru, despite the self-identification by the city government.

The first involves the usual ENGVAR reasons: that it is silly to switch from one variety to another; and that our readers about Calcutta are likely to be predominantly Indian (and so be used to Kolkata). Again, there does not appear to be any evidence for the last statement. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:32, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Copied from User talk:Xander

Dude, if you don't want the general convention to be able to overrule specific conventions, you've already won. That is, we've already won. The general convention has been largely rewritten over the last few days. Before, it was a set of rules that the specific conventions must conform to or be damned. Now it is a set of principles that the specific conventions embody. This means far more freedom and flexibility for the specific conventions.

So you're actually bidding against yourself by continually reinstating that sentence. By removing it, we are demoting "use the most easily recognized name" from a rule that cannot be broken by a specific convention without good reason, to merely one of several principles that the specific conventions should take into account. In restoring it, you strengthen that clause, making it more binding on specific conventions, not less. I know that sounds odd; please, think upon it.

Hesperian 11:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that this precise section is being used by Kotniski and others at WP:Naming conflict in an attempt to push a change removing the self-identifying names section of the convention, alleging "contradiction" with policy. The keenness to remove the proviso has a lot to do with that agrument, and that view of the Conventions. As I see it the "protection" of the individual conventions in the new wording is "soft" and subject to interpretation, while the phtase in question is "hard", and less easy to wikilawyer. Xandar 11:34, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

It turns out that removal is supported by Philip Baird Shearer, Kotniski, GTBacchus, Born2cycle and myself—five editors who rarely agree about anything. I don't know which of these are involved in your other dispute, but the assertion that removal is motivated by that dispute is demonstrably wrong. I've removed it again. Please let us know how else we might make the convention reflect your take on consensus. Hesperian 13:01, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

The first two named are heavily involved in the dispute. And I'm afraid that you five DO NOT compose the cross-project consensus needed to radically change policy in this way. So please do not keep reverting your non-consensus change to policy. If a change this big is to made it needs to be considered by all concerned in the community. Xandar 20:18, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Then file an RFC already. Remember to word it neutrally. -GTBacchus^(talk) 14:51, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I have made this edit, because this is the naming conventions page (and policy) The others are guidelines to the policy. There is no point have a set of conventions which lay out the policy, and then having wording that will allow any guideline to completely contradict the policy page. I strongly suggest that we put back the wording based on WP:policies and guidelines that "Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are standards that all users should follow. Where a guideline appears to conflict with a policy, the policy takes precedence." -- PBS (talk) 14:04, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid that is the point in dispute, PBS, and You and your allies are the ones who are suddenly so determined to change the policy without consensus. Therefore the principle stands until it is overturned by consensus. Xandar 16:26, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The nutshell

I really dislike the current nutshell as it stands:

"Articles are named in accordance with principles and conventions that Wikipedia has adopted through experience, in order to best serve readers of the encyclopedia."

I find it woolly and uninstructive: in almost the same way, the civility nutshell could be written by merely changing the first three words:

"Discussions are carried out in accordance with principles and conventions that Wikipedia has adopted through experience, in order to best serve readers of the encyclopedia."

...but I find the current nutshell there much more informative on how editors should be civil.

I would like to see a brief survey of the general principles, along the lines of:

"Article names are chosen to best serve the readers of the encyclopedia. Articles are given names used in reliable English-language sources which are both easily recognizable and sufficiently unambiguous.

Suggestions and comments? Knepflerle (talk) 13:22, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I certainly prefer your version (and I'm the one who wrote the current one). Just don't let it get any longer than that, or it won't be worth having a nutshell at all (in fact I wouldn't mind if we didn't have a nutshell at all, but people seem to like them).--Kotniski (talk) 13:42, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

How about

"Article names are optimised for the use of readers. As much as possible they should be recognisable, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable sources."

Hesperian 13:51, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I could certainly live with that. Knepflerle (talk) 13:56, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

So could I (I think -ize spellings are used on this page though).--Kotniski (talk) 14:04, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I think it's important to retain English-language.

"Article names are optimised for the use of readers. As much as possible they should be recognisable, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources."

--Born2cycle (talk) 17:04, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

-ize and English are both fine with me. Hesperian 23:07, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

recognisability and reliable sources

The common names section presently says both

"what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize—usually the most commonly used name in verifiable reliable sources in English."

and

"Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name primarily by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject."

These would be redundant to each other if they weren't subtly contradictory. As some of you know, I am too steeped in a long-standing dispute in this area, for me to be bold here. Does someone want to fix it, or shall we first thrash out what "fix" means here?

My own opinion, despite my having relied on the latter wording for many months, is that the former of these is more in the spirit of the convention. However I was not involved in the protracted disputes that resulted in the inclusion of the latter in the first place.

Hesperian 13:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea what the disputes were about, nor can I imagine how this difference wording could conceivably have affected anything, but to me too, the former wording seems preferable (and the second can therefore be removed as redundant).--Kotniski (talk) 13:48, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I have a pedantic issue with "verifiable reliable sources". Sources aren't "verifiable"; facts are verifiable via sources. I would replace "verifiable reliable sources in English" with "reliable, English-language sources". -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

There may be a point here, even if verifiable doesn't express it. The existence of the sources, and that they actually use X, should be checkable; there is a risk that somebody will cite a pile of books, without titles or page numbers, and claim they are reliable sources for the name he wants to push. I'm not sure how to say this, and not absolutely sure it's worth saying. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:21, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah, yes. How about.... "usually the most commonly used name that we can verify as being used in reliable, English-language sources."? -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:32, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

(ec) I don't see a difference between usually the most commonly used name in verifiable reliable sources in English and Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name primarily by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject. Both weasel-word around the rare cases in which the sources do not use the most recognizable term (presumably we would have to have a statement in the sources admitting this) and where none of the reliable sources are in English. If Hesperian can explain his contradiction, it would help. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:18, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Can you please provide an example of a case where the sources do not use the most recognizable term? Are you thinking of plant articles, perhaps, or something like the "shit" v. "feces" case, or is it something else? -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:21, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I merely identify a logical possibility, as one reason for generally and primarily; I wasn't thinking of anything in particular. If I were pressed, I suppose the pedantry-chasing by which Chippewa has become Ojibway, Ojibwa and now Ojibwe, as the scholars keep changing their minds about to represent non-English sounds, and the article chases these ever-moving goalposts. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Take the name "Scharnhorst class warship (1936)", that was chosen because it could not be agreed what the most common name is. If the editors had followed the naming conventions for ships, it would have been one of four choices, so that is a case where usually comes into play--Depending on sources the it could be "Scharnhorst class" or "Gneisenau class" and the class can either be referred to as battleship or battlecruiser. But a better example is when we use a descriptive name, or an English language name that does not exist in reliable English Language sources, in which case it is not the common name as found in reliable English Language sources, although hopefully it is still the most recognisable name eg Djiboutian–Eritrean border conflict. -- PBS (talk) 16:48, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Personally I think the "shit" v "feces" case is the more useful. There is a rich vein of such examples running through the topics of private bodily parts and functions: e.g. "shit" v "feces", "defecation" v "pooing/shitting", "testes" v "balls", "flatulence" v "farting"/"wind", etc. Biological example that don't require us to turn this policy into a toilet door include "humerus" v "funny bone", "patella" v "knee cap", "orbital bone" v "eye socket", "calcaneus" v "heel bone", ... Hesperian 23:32, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Ease of searching and linking

I mentioned this before but it got lost among with other issues. I don't see that "ease of searching and linking" needs to be one of the key principles (at least, not as it's currently articulated). Doesn't it just come down to the same as recognizability? Would anything be lost by leaving it out?--Kotniski (talk) 14:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Not much, no. I meant to reply to it earlier, but as you noted, it was run over by about 30 fast trains. I think it's a bit of an artifact from 5 years ago, when I used to bother to read policy (or whatever) pages. Redirects pretty much take care of the issue, although, if most links arrive at an article via a particular redirect, that seems to indicate that we at least consider whether that's a better title. -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

It's a minor consideration, which tends to be parallel to recognizability. But it is convenient to know, when writing about the twelfth century, that the actual title of Henry I of England is exactly that; it avoids dumping readers on the dab page Henry I. Also some readers object, on aesthetic grounds, to arriving on pages through redirects; if we can pipe them to the direct page, there's no harm in doing so. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:34, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't quite see the point about Henry I, but we seem agreed that it isn't one of the main principles, but should be mentioned somewhere - any suggestions as to where?--Kotniski (talk) 15:43, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I would mention it here; it's the justification for all systematic article naming, from WP:NCNT (which names all the kings of England as {Name} {Roman numeral} of England - except John of England) to WP:FLORA. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:57, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, we understand "it" completely differently then - for me it would tend to go against systematic naming, since readers are far less likely to search for systematic names (particularly when the system is invented by WP) than common or real names. But by "where" I didn't mean on which page, I meant in which section of this page.--Kotniski (talk) 16:09, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Until readers observe that we use systematic names; often not difficult. Ease of linking, however, cannot apply to readers, who do not make links, but to editors, who do. I thought I replied that this principle, minor though it is, is independent of the others - and so should be listed with them. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:19, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

The way you're interpreting it, it seems not to be independent of the others, since the others include "Consistency". The way I interpret it, it's not independent of the others since the others include "Recognizability". Either way, it appears not to be useful as one of the 4/5 main principles listed in the overview. But perhaps it could have its own section among the "General principles" (along with such things as "Use English"), with the various competing aspects of the matter addressed.--Kotniski (talk) 16:43, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Let me think about it; it's been a while since we've discussed it. It also includes such points as our preference to use article names which can exist in running text: no parentheses when avoidable, a preference for short and colloquial forms, use of lower case when there is a choice, and so on. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:46, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Dashes and hyphens

PMA, I know this is one of your pet peeves, but what exactly is the point in continually changing the wording to downgrade the significance of the Manual of Style as regards use of hyphens and dashes? Is there a case where the way we use hyphens/dashes in titles ought to differ from the way we use them in article text?--Kotniski (talk) 15:43, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

1. It's the only mention of MOS in this text. That's because they cover text; we cover article naming. If I were Jimbo, it wouldn't be mentioned at all here; each guideline to its own field.

   This would apply even if I thought MOS the best thing since sliced bread. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

2. MOS:DASH, as usual, covers dashes badly; it's an unsourced bunch of rules of thumb made up in school one day. At least dash has sources and cites them. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:52, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, I would choose different rules for dash use too, if it were up to me. But given that whatever "sources" you look at will recommend different styles, and that we have chosen one of various acceptable styles for use in artcles, is there any reason not simply to refer people to that style to find out how to use these signs in titles? It hardly matters which guideline it comes in; guidelines refer to each other all the time to avoid repeating stuff. --Kotniski (talk) 16:03, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

It's an unrelenting crusade against MoS and a few of Mr Anderson's pet peeves there ("as usual, covers dashes badly ... made up in school one day"). I'm unsure I'd be quick to boast that Naming conventions covers article naming well—not yet it doesn't, which is why we're here to get on with the work; let's not throw stones.

Will someone please revert it? MoS makes quite a few mentions of Naming conventions; there seems to be a campaign to denigrate the converse, and to direct towards outlying articles that may be more to Mr Anderson's liking on the matter. He might also consult the definitions of civility and of edit-warring, which both appear to be relevant to this war of attrition. Third attempt in the past couple of months, is it, while there are fundamentals to fix here that require all our collaboration. Tony (talk) 16:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, indeed MOS is; a crusade by a handful of Language Reformers to impose some provinciality on the whole of Wikipedia - as harmful as Anglo-American warring and without its excuses in childhood patriotism. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:17, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

(ec)No, a half-dozen editors have hammered one together out of bits and pieces; the result is not anybody's usage - some would call it dubiously literate. Some fields of study do something quite different (often simple hyphenation); their students came to MOS to complain, and been brushed off by the usual Masters of Style; so the section is not what our readers will expect, and not consensus. It is only as a compromise that I retain the link to that waste of electrons at all. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:17, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

• However, it has been pointed out to you on a number of occasions that most of the style guides ask for en dashes. I am not prepared to tread circles again with you on the matter: this is a re-run of umpteen cycles that are almost exactly the same. Tony (talk) 16:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
  • You know, Tony, there is only one reason why literate editors care what those non-consensus essays say: to avoid having prose incompetently reworked by junior high school students who believe that MOS knows what it is talking about or represents an agreement of Wikipedia. It would be nice to have a useful Manual of Style, but it's not going to happen before our publication date. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

For the purposes of this page, all that matters is whether there is a situation where we would wish hyphen/dash use in a title to be different from the corresponding use in text. Personal prejudices aside, is there such a situation? If not, I don't see any problem in simply referring readers to the relevant MoS section to get the info on how dashes are used on WP. Referring them to other recommendations, however much some of us might personally wish those recommendations adopted, is just misleading.--Kotniski (talk) 16:30, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

To avoid endorsing bad advice as policy? or is that too much to expect? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:39, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

It's not bad advice - it's accurate advice as to how things are done on WP. Just as we "endorse" this weird system we have for naming monarchs, even though many people consider it bad advice, it conflicts with what reliable sources do etc. etc.--Kotniski (talk) 16:50, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

No, since the half-dozen who support it haven't bot-warred for this one, it doesn't even have that merit.

By contrast, our system of naming monarchs is what we actually do; it is also what we decide to do when the issue is discussed (or the monarchs would be moved - and I, at least, would modify the guideline). What the sources do is to name each of half a dozen monarchs Henry I, which would be fine for us - if only it were technically possible. But we can't have half-a-dozen articles all called Henry I, for a deeper reason than policy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:57, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

As the MOS is not a naming convention guideline so "see" is not appropriate. I think that the previous wording:

If dashes are used in page names, a redirect using hyphens must be provided (see also Manual of Style (dashes)).

should be used. -- PBS (talk) 17:01, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Adding also to the present text, which I think makes the distinction more clearly. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:25, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Uniqueness

There is a sixth basic requirement: Article names must be unique; this causes much of the problem with the others. This sequence of edits added it, and tightened the others, but no change of guidance is intended. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Enhance?

"The page is supplemented by naming guideline pages, which explain and enhance this naming conventions page."

Enhance in what way? Does it make the NC page more beautiful, more profound, more interesting? Surely it's enough that they explain; but "expand on" or "provide greater details of" would be the usual way to express this relationship, wouldn't it? Tony (talk) 14:06, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that there are two kinds of guideline pages, and this is what was written until PBS found fault with it - there are some which explain in general how particular general principles are to be applied (WP:NC (common names) and so on), and there are some which contain conventions relating to particular subject areas (WP:NC (names and titles) and so on). Presumably PBS means that the first kind explain this page and the second kind enhance it - but why can't we just out loud what we mean in clear words? I don't understand this obsession with distinguishing and preserving the status of different types of page - nothing that isn't on this page is allowed to be called a "convention" (why on earth not?), you have to say "see ALSO MoS" because MoS isn't the right kind of guideline page... Why don't we just tell people what's going on instead of acting as if there's a kind of power battle between different pages?--Kotniski (talk) 14:16, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it really is an obsession with status. I see it on no other policy page – not NFC, not CIVILITY, not ADMIN. Yet there is precious little to be proud about in terms of this page as it stands; that is, if explaining naming conventions to the poor WP editors is the measure of quality. Is it? Frankly, I have never grappled with naming conventions because this page and its associated pages are so impenetrable and poorly organised. I'm sure a lot of editors are fed up with it, don't understand it, and therefore don't apply it. Can we lose this status thing and just get to work on making it accessible and clear to normal people? Yes, the fixation on relegat MoS to second-class status is hard to fathom. It would still be so if NC was worth its salt. Now, in terms of clarity and organisation, MoS is by no means perfect; but it leaves this page for dead. Tony (talk) 14:24, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The best way to understand our naming conventions is to ignore these pages entirely and go work in Requested Moves. That's where policy is set; this is where we masturbate over it reflect on it. -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:13, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know anyone who is editing here who has a "fixation on relegat MoS to second-class status". But division of labour is desirable as it reduces conflict and confusion. Let us suppose that the naming conventions were to start to dictate how the style of the text in a page should appear (it is after all a policy). If it contradicted the style guidelines people would in my opinion rightly object because it would lead to confusion. Hence it is better that the content and the name of pages although related do not start to dictate to the other.

Enhance does not just mean to "more beautiful, more profound, more interesting", it also mean "To raise in degree, heighten, intensify", I considered augment, but that is not what I meant. As to another policy page that says something similar see WP:V "For a guideline discussing the reliability of particular types of sources, see Wikipedia:Reliable sources (WP:RS). Because policies take precedence over guidelines, in the case of an inconsistency between this page and that one, this page has priority, and WP:RS should be updated accordingly." and also Wikipedia:policies and guidelines "Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are standards that all users should follow. ... Where a guideline appears to conflict with a policy, the policy takes precedence."

Also I know that in the past there has been considerable tension between editors of the main MOS page and some of the supplementary guidelines, when they contradict the main MOS page.

"Presumably PBS means that the first kind explain this page and the second kind enhance it - but why can't we just out loud what we mean in clear words?" No that is not what I mean. AFAIK all he guidelines with the exception of WP:NC (flora) (and possibly, depending on the version currently reverted to, WP:naming conflicts ) explain enhance the naming conventions policy page. The simplest way to achieve consistency is for this policy to take precedence and the guidelines to explain and enhance/augment this policy. But the augmentations should not contradict the core values of the policy, or one thing is certain it leads to what Tony says "Frankly, I have never grappled with naming conventions because this page and its associated pages are so impenetrable and poorly organised." If it is clear that this is policy and the others are guidelines that must not contradict policy things are much simpler, because there is only one page that has to be consistent with itself. -- PBS (talk) 15:13, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I presume Tony is talking about me. In fact, I don't want to reduce MOS to second-class status; I would prefer a first-class MOS, which would be concise, contain only the guidance that was necessary for Wikipedia, reflect the consensus of Wikipedia as a whole, and be based on sources. That would be brief, coherent, and stable. We don't have that and we aren't going to get it for the foreseeable future, even though such a document would have the status Tony so desperately wants for it.

In the meantime, I prefer to maintain the distinction between the MOS and the Naming conventions, especially when writing policy. (If the ideal MOS were magically to come into being, I still would; but the point would be moot, since (there as here) the guidance on dashes would follow English usage, and so be compatible.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:48, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be pursuing a war instead of trying to help people looking for guidance. Are you proposing different conventions for the use of dashes/hyphens in page titles than in page content? If not, there seems no purpose except personal point-pushing in refusing to state explicitly that WP's guidance on this topic can be found in the relevant seciton of MoS.--Kotniski (talk) 16:08, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

As is often the case :-( Blueboar has said what I am trying to say more clearly, in this case in a reply to Xander on the talk page of Wikipedia talk:Naming conflict --PBS (talk) 15:53, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

That seems to be an appeal to remove contradictions between guidelines and policy. Not to paper over them by just saying that policy takes precedence. In practice, as we know, this page does not have precedence over the more detailed guidelines. If I point out that Victoria of the United Kingdom is totally at odds with the principles of recognizability etc. espoused on this page, it will get me nowhere, because the monarchists insist that monarchs have to be given the made-up names that conform to their specific rule. It's the specific rules that take precedence in practice, not this page. Maybe sad, but you won't change anything by refusing to admit it in the wording of this page.--Kotniski (talk) 16:08, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The reverting needs to stop

It is disappointing that, as Kotniski has observed, no one seems willing to use the draft page I created the other day. Can I remind users that treating the policy page like a sandbox is unacceptable. I intend to ask for the page to be locked if the instability continues.

Can we agree here to create another draft page and work on that? Possibly one with a talk page (rather than the incompetent job I did of creating the page) would be more helpful, so the discussion can move directly there. Tony (talk) 14:36, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure a draft page would help much (it will just give a certain person an excuse to restore the "stable" version of the page and blank out all the clarifying improvements that have been made over the last few days), but if it's clear that there's a difference of opinion about something, we must be prepared to discuss reasonably and in terms of making the accepted practice (whatever our views on it) clear to readers of these pages. --Kotniski (talk) 15:03, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I am in favour of returning to an older version while we discuss the changes. Given that the page is now larger (51,069 bytes) than the version I reverted to yesterday (49,708 bytes) what do you think are the improvements that have been made over the last few days? --PBS (talk) 15:22, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The major change is WP:NC#Overview. Do you disagree with it on substance? If not, it does seem useful to pull together our goals and constraints into one visible section, and in the long run it may lead to shortening elsewhere. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:52, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit clash) I am not against a major overhaul of this policy to make it clearer, but I made the point yesterday that major content changes can cause instability particularly when we have a number of editors who have yet to reach a consensus on some of the underlying principles which because the older wording is unclear, have been fudged for a long time. My own approach would be to go back to the stable version I suggested yesterday, and develop a new version for which the editors involved agree and then implement it. My observation is that Kotniski has suggested that a desirable goal is that the policy is more succinct, yet to date it as got larger and not smaller. I thought that the old first section also pulled our goals and constraints into one visible section and it was far shorter and easy to quote. -- PBS (talk) 16:03, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Not really; it effectively just mentioned one of the goals, which was highly misleading. The reason it's got longer is that we are now honest and state them all explicitly. We will eventually achieve succintness as we find that we no longer need to say certain things in certain places because they're covered by what we have right at the start.--Kotniski (talk) 16:13, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

(ec)The old wording did not mention precision and consistency as goals, nor uniqueness as a constraint. Another way to ahorten would be to retain the key-words, but, instead of a paragraph after each point, link to the general rule down below. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

One such change would be to take the time-honoured The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists out of Common name, and insert it in Recognizability head of the Overview; it always has been a general principle, and this would permit shortening of that bullet. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me.--Kotniski (talk) 16:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

For me, the most important thing about the rewrites is that we spell out a list of principles, and explain that there is no system of trumps, but rather that decisions are reached by a consensus of editors, discussing particular cases, keeping those principles in mind. Any language about "this trumps that" is cancer, to my way of thinking. -GTBacchus^(talk) 16:10, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

What about situations where, in practice, the consensus is that something does trump something else? You said yourself that specific guidelines tend to outweigh the general ones - why should we not inform editors that this is the case?--Kotniski (talk) 16:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)