Talk:Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre

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ERCC had go into lockdown because of abuse and threats of violence against them by "gender-critical feminists" and their allies. ERCC's trans female and Indian-born director also experienced transphobic and racist abuse.

This is vital context and a significant event in the history of ERCC, and it needs to be added into the article. At present, it reads as if it was written to whitewash the "gender-critical" movement.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/5050/trans-scotland-mridul-wadhwa-for-women-scotland/

Roz Adams Employment Tribunal ruling

This is an important case affecting ERCC and its management and needs to be added to the article: Victory for worker in rape centre gender row Zeno27 (talk) 23:41, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Additional: This case outcome and the details behind it urgently needs adding to this article but as it is protected, most of us cannot - https://archive.ph/ZCsFI

Agreed. Can anyone explain why this article has extended protection yet the Talk page is completely blank (other than this new section)? Zeno27 (talk) 09:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because those with a political agenda (supporting gender ideology) and power (the ability to soft lock articles) are doing so with impunity. I created this page and was locked out of it within 24 hours. 82.10.58.36 (talk) 09:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Mridul Wadhwa article is far worse and also protected. 82.10.58.36 (talk) 09:25, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is atrocious and needs to be reversed. Parking another useful reference here: Gender critical claim: Roz Adams wins constructive dismissal case https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/gender-critical-roz-adams-belief-discrimination/ Zeno27 (talk) 10:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have added to this page material on this case which I have copied from what I added to the Mridul Wadhwa article. Sweet6970 (talk) 13:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Feels like it's a bit of a bigger issue than a footnote? 82.10.58.36 (talk) 13:51, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The material I have added is not a footnote. Sweet6970 (talk) 14:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's the defining event of the existence of the ERCC and you added a paragraph that glossed over most of the details 82.10.58.36 (talk) 21:56, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify the protection status, this article's current protection level allows registered users with at least 500 edits and at least 30 days tenure to edit the article, so it's not a tiny cabal that is allowed this privilege; many editors of many viewpoints qualify. *Dan T.* (talk) 15:43, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ref 18 has the wrong URL: although the article title is correct, the URL should be https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2edeyzz0xmo - the URL is currently a duplicate of the previous reference. Can someone please change this? Zeno27 (talk) 16:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article says, "Among the failures cited was not clarifying the birth sex of every staff member" but I'm not sure where that comes from. I can't see that in either of the two BBC articles or the PN one (nor in the report itself). The BBC articles both say, "Former worker Roz Adams believed that those using the service should be able to know the sex of the staff that deal with their case." but that's not the same as "clarifying the birth sex of every staff member". Zeno27 (talk) 17:22, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It’s in the PinkNews source: The report said the ERCC failed service users by not clarifying the birth sex of every staff member. It noted two instances where survivors chose not to use the centre’s services as a result of its policies.

By the way, it looks like I am the one who messed up the BBC URLs. Apologies, and thanks to Void for fixing this.

Sweet6970 (talk) 21:13, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, @Void if removed and @Sweet6970. I can now see that PN says that (but I can't see that in the report - still working my way through it, though). Zeno27 (talk) 23:28, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Harassment and threats against ERCC by “gender-critical” feminists and allies: completely missing from entry

ERCC had go into lockdown because of abuse and threats of violence against them by "gender-critical feminists" and their allies. ERCC's trans female and Indian-born director also experienced transphobic and racist abuse.

This is vital context and a significant event in the history of ERCC, and it needs to be added into the article. At present, it reads as if it was written to whitewash the "gender-critical" movement.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/5050/trans-scotland-mridul-wadhwa-for-women-scotland/ 2A00:23C6:8A05:B001:6D2E:71AA:9649:6B58 (talk) 08:58, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 May 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In history section the second paragraph has a typo of "she is a she is a transgender woman." LunaHasArrived (talk) 19:39, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done , thanks! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:43, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

mentions of beira's place and Backlash

At the moment there seems to be lot on Beira's place on this article and the amount seems undue. At the moment there's more about beira's place than the reported on threats see here they received. I think the easiest fix would be removing the entire mention in the 2nd paragraph (anything after the first sentence).

On a very different note any backlash seems to be very toned down considering the above source. I think we also should be very careful when using sources from either the times or the herald considering the alleged harassment they contributed to. LunaHasArrived (talk) 20:05, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t think that the references to Beira’s Place are excessive.

Regarding harassment, do you have a suggestion for a specific addition to the article?

Sweet6970 (talk) 12:31, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I mean how is beira's place important to the ercc at the moment, it's not like beira's place has revolutionised the way rape crisis centres are done. In the context of J.K Rowling criticising Wadwhas comment a mention of beira's place makes sense. In the context of Wadwhas appointment (before the comments) it makes a lot less sense and the source seems to fail verification. The guardian source currently used says that "this new project... Comes after a row about the role of transgender women in rape crisis services."

On the harassment Perhaps instead of the current line maybe "Wadwha's appointment led to harassment by anti trans activists, this included employees facing "verbal abuse, hate speech on social media and in phone calls" and led to locking it's front door after taking advice from the police."

This can be all sourced from here LunaHasArrived (talk) 15:07, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Beira's Place: On Beira's Place there are sources for this: the National supports the wording in the ERCC article; I can’t access the Telegraph. So I am copying over the National reference. Sweet6970 (talk) 16:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry I still don't see it, I could see one saying Wadwha's appointment led to j.k rowlings decision but honestly speaking the article more speaks to the fact that it was the comments made by Wadwha on the guilty feminist podcast that influence the decision. I still don't think the 2nd paragraph in history makes much sense, the national article just used also supports saying that abuse to ercc staff meant that ercc had to lock its doors so that this fact is missing seems like a failure.

Note: I'm not an extended confirmed user so I can't be bold and make the changes and I think my suggestions are far greater than an edit request (I got the feeling those are on the level of minor change on other pages) hence all this talk discussion. LunaHasArrived (talk) 16:43, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Beira's Place: I’m sorry, I don’t see the problem.

Harassment: I was not intending to ignore the ‘harassment’ point – I was just taking a break to have something to eat. Using the National source, I would suggest a wording: In 2021, the centre was forced to close its doors temporarily because of abuse, and re-opened after additional security measures were taken.

Sweet6970 (talk) 18:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it should be noted the abuse was at staff and not any users of the service. I also think that the quote "verbal abuse [and] hate speech on social media and in phone calls" does a good job of showing the specifics of the abuse (using this source)

Maybe "In 2021, following abuse to staff on social media and in phone calls, the centre was forced to close it's doors temporarily and re-opened after additional security measure were taken".

Re beira's place , where in the national does it say that it was the transgender inclusion policy of the ercc that led to Rowling opening beira's place. Just because this

"ERCC's trans-inclusionary policy led to J. K. Rowling establishing Beira's Place, a support and counselling service for women who are survivors of sexual violence in Edinburgh[2][4] which does not employ or serve transgender women.[5]"

Seems out of place and I think the point is made much better and more succinctly By

"Rowling stated that [Wadwha's] comments inspired her to create Beira's Place"

Maybe adding that beira's place is also a sexual violence support service.

P.s I'm sorry if my note came off as rude, I really do appreciate us talking this through to improve the article and I can see we might just have to agree to disagree on Beira's places mention in the 2nd paragraph. LunaHasArrived (talk) 20:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Harassment: I have added ‘In 2021, following abuse to staff on social media and in phone calls, the centre closed its doors temporarily and re-opened after additional security measure were taken.’

Beira’s Place: I will leave this to see if there are any comments from other editors – I am not a regular editor of this page.

Sorry, I didn’t intend to suggest you were being rude.

Sweet6970 (talk) 21:30, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Resignations from the board?

According to the Scotsman [1], the Times says that 2 board members have resigned since the Adams judgment. Does anyone have access to the Times, and if so, is this definite enough to add to our article? Sweet6970 (talk) 12:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a subscriber to The Times but I can't see I've seen anything and a quick search returns nothing. Zeno27 (talk) 12:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah. Here it is: JK Rowling slams ‘witch-hunts’ after rape crisis centre worker’s victory

"Rowling’s remarks came as Wadhwa’s position was described as “untenable” after the resignation of two of ERCC’s board. The two directors understood to have resigned are Miren Sagues, the former chairwoman of the charity’s board, and Katie Horsburgh, a trustee who dealt with a grievance lodged by Adams about her treatment."

Will you add this, @Sweet6970? Zeno27 (talk) 13:15, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the link. However, since I don’t subscribe, I can’t read it. In order to add the reference, I need to know: the title of the report; the date; the name of the author. Can you supply these? Sweet6970 (talk) 15:45, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I thought any visitor could read those details but:

JK Rowling slams ‘witch-hunts’ after rape crisis centre worker’s victory

Author calls for ministers to condemn treatment of women with gender critical views as pressure grows for the head of Edinburgh support centre to quit over sacking

Mike Wade

Monday May 20 2024, 8.40pm, The Times Zeno27 (talk) 18:31, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for these details – when I go to the webpage, they appear very briefly and then disappear when I get the message ‘Subscribe now’, and I am not quick enough to make a note of them. I have now added to our article a brief statement that two members of the board have resigned. Sweet6970 (talk) 21:49, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]