Talk:Russians

Russians are not Slavs.

Greetings ! I am not russian but russian speaking person. Contrasting their language with other Slavic languages I found that some words look different and and even Ukrainian share same lexicon with Czech. 2.133.211.65 (talk) 07:55, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Interesting hypothesis, but you are definitely wrong. There are no any doubts between linguists that Russian language is Indo-European language, that belongs to the Slavic language family. The 'lexicon' is not criteria to make such conclusions, especially taking in account the fact that many words in Ukrainian and Czech language have Germanic origin not Slavic (e.g. 'Thank you' - German 'Danke' - Ukrainian 'djákovati'). Also, some words in Russian have Greek origin. So you cannot assume the language family by just comparing the words. In that case you could take Ukrainian 'djákovati' (Germanic origin) and compare with Russian 'spasibo' (Slavic origin) and make a conclusion that Ukrainian is not Slavic language. It is silly, but it makes as much sense as your comment.Interesting hypothesis, but you are definitely wrong. There is no any doubts for between lindquist that Russian language is Indo-European language, that belongs to the Slavic language family. The 'lexicon' is not criteria to make such conclusions, especially taking in account the fact that many words in Ukrainian and Czech language have germanic origin, neither slavic (e.g. 'Thank you' - German 'Danke' - Ukrainian 'djákovati'). Also some words in Russian have greek origin. So you cannot assume the language family by just comparing the words. In that case you could take Ukrainian 'djákovati' (germanic origin) and compare with Russian 'spasibo' (slavic origin) and make a conclusion that Ukrainian is not slavic language. It is silly, but it makes as much sense as your comment. 91.123.65.221 (talk) 23:15, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Essentially a WP:FORUM thread that should have been reverted. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:56, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

As a person from Ukraine I'd question if Russians are really Slavic. This can be completely wrong so please no hate. But I clearly remember from History lessons that Russia is originally named Moscowia and came from Golden Horde. It got renamed as Russia only in October 22, 1721.

"The tsars of Moscow and, later, Russia understood that without an imposing past it was impossible to create a great nation and empire. Therefore it was necessary to glorify their historical roots and even to hijack the history of other nations. So, starting with Ivan the Terrible (1533-1584) the tsars of Moscow applied all their efforts to appropriate the history of Kyivan Rus, its glorious past, and to create an official mythology for the Russian Empire." 185.94.219.13 (talk) 17:24, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

I would like to clarify that, regarding Kievan Rus, at least in the parts currently within the Russian Federation (including what are often referred to as Muscovy and other principalities, as well as the medieval republics of Novgorod and Pskov), these areas were never physically occupied by the Mongols. There were no Mongol garrisons, as demonstrated by historical accounts, archaeological evidence, and genetic studies. Instead, the princes were required to pay tribute by traveling to Sarai and acknowledging Mongol suzerainty. The Mongols established their state to the south of the Volga, approximately a thousand to two thousand kilometers away from Slavic settlements, in territories inhabited by nomadic tribes. This territory included present-day Kazakhstan, the southern Pontic steppes, and the southern Volga region in today’s Kalmykia, extending at one point as far as the Carpathians.

Furthermore, a study of autosomal markers indicates that northern Russians (from the region of present-day Saint Petersburg up to Veliky Ustyug) share genetic connections with other European populations, raising questions about the significance of the Finno-Ugric migratory layer within the genetic makeup of northern Russians. These findings support the notion that a paleo-European substratum from prehistoric times has been preserved in these territories, even amidst the significant migrations of Slavic tribes.

According to studies on Y-chromosome markers, the central-southern group, which encompasses the majority of Russian populations, is genetically aligned with Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Poles. In terms of mitochondrial markers and autosomal markers, Russians show similarities with other populations in Central and Eastern Europe. A notable genetic unity in autosomal markers has been found among East Slavic populations, along with distinct genetic differences from neighboring Finno-Ugric, Turkic, and North Caucasian peoples.

This has been confirmed by genogeographic expeditions conducted by the Scientific Center for Medical Genetics at the Russian Academy of Medical Sciences, which collected and analyzed more than 10,000 DNA samples from individuals of Russian nationality between 2000 and 2008. All samples indicated a genetic profile that is fully European. Research by Malyarchuk et al. on mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosomes in Russian populations supports this conclusion.

This finding aligns with scientific research on Russian anthropology and genetics, including recent studies on Russian patrilineal heritage and mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome differentiation. Studies led by various researchers have shown that ethnic Russians are genetically European, with negligible contributions from Turkic or Caucasian groups. The frequencies of East Eurasian genetic markers in Russians correspond with average markers found across the rest of Europe.

All existing biological and genetic studies have made previous hypotheses regarding the mixing between Russians and non-European ethnic groups obsolete. Among northern Russians, the contribution of Baltic genetic markers is now recognized to be more significant than that of Finno-Ugric markers, which are now understood to be lower than previously thought. 125AB (talk) 13:09, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@125AB: Wikipedia is based on reliable sources (see WP:RS) and on consensus (see WP:CONSENSUS). That means that you have to stop reverting to your preferred version if you see that other editors disagree. There are no reliable sources supporting pseudo-scientific terms like Europoid. Rsk6400 (talk) 18:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Ultimate original research fail 2603:6011:9600:52C0:645E:6895:7583:F219 (talk) 01:52, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Interesting hypothesis, but Wikipedia isn't the place for spreading original research and fringe theories. Summer ^talk 14:11, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Neutrality of section on Religions

Jews are not mentioned in that section, seemingly because they are not "ethnic Russians". Defining ethnic Russians in a way that excludes Jews seems to be original research based on an idea of ethnicity being determined primarily by a person's "blood" (or genetics). Rsk6400 (talk) 06:59, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 March 2024

Remove total population. It's misleading and unsourced. 193.187.88.197 (talk) 00:16, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. It looks like all the population numbers are sourced. Please be specific about what you want changed. RudolfRed (talk) 00:53, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Ethnic group ?

Since Ivan Grozny, there have been at least two definitions of Russians: Ethnic Russians and subjects / citizens of the Russian Empire. In Russian there are even two words: русские and another one (российский) derived from "Russia". There is no reason why this article should only be about ethnic Russians. The formula "are an East Slavic ethnic group native to Eastern Europe, who share a common Russian ancestry, culture, and history." is similar to many other articles, but there is no source for it, and it doesn't match the specific Russian history. Rsk6400 (talk) 06:36, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

@Undashing: Would you please take part in this discussion that I started two weeks ago before restoring claims that are totally unsourced ? Rsk6400 (talk) 12:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

@Rsk6400: Other ethnic groups in Russia have their own separate articles e.g. Buryats. No reason to hijack this one and make it all about the "multiculturalism" and deny the existence of the East Slavic core population of Russia, who compose 80% of the total population of the federation. Unless you have an agenda. Then go forward because no one cares and no one will stop you anyway. Swoonfed (talk) 19:11, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

My edits had nothing to do with any of the things you accused me of. Can you give me a good source for the formula I mentioned in my post of 23 June ? Why should we not mention that "Russians" has two meanings? Russians are the only people I know of having two different words for the ethnicity and the citizenship. If this article is to deal with ethnic Russians only, it should be renamed "Ethnic Russians". Rsk6400 (talk) 07:01, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

There is a separate article named Ethnic groups in Russia. This article should not be named "Ethnic Russians". That is utterly confusing. Secondly, most people in this world are ignorant i.e. they have little knowledge about geography, history, ethnic groups, cultures, social customs, classes etc. The word "Russian" was synonymous with the word "Slav" for a very long time in the West. I would say it was as such just before 2022 invasion of Ukraine. So, when people think about the word "Russian", they think about the Slavic ethnic group, that are the Russians, who compose the majority of Russia's population.

It is not very hard to grasp the fact that all ethnic groups in Russia are of Russian nationality but not of Russian ethnicity. And this might disappoint you, but people are not searching for Dagestanis or Yakuts when they search the word "Russians". Swoonfed (talk) 09:50, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

In English, the Russians is also how Россияне — Википедия (wikipedia.org) is translated to. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 09:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

This article was made for the Slavic Russians, whose namesake the federation uses. To omit the sections reserved for the ethnic Russians and make this article a multicultural salad like the article Germans is pointless considering all of the minority ethnic groups in Russia have their own separate articles. So I do not support that.

A point to be noted is that in Russia minority ethnic groups have their own separate identity and culture, which is distinct from the majority Slavic population. Such as the Kalmyks, the Mongolic peoples who are the only Buddhist bunch in Europe. Peoples such as Chechens also do not identify as "Russian", but rather as their own separate identity and culture. The word "ethnic" itself is puzzling. It often refers to people of color. Most readers would have 0 idea about what the supposed "ethnic" Russians are supposed to be. Swoonfed (talk) 10:11, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

It's sad that you didn't reply to my concerns regarding the missing sourcing for the formula "who share a common Russian ancestry, culture, and history". Also: To restrict this article to ethnic Russians only, we'd need good reasons based on reliable sources. Please make yourself familiar with WP:TPG, WP:RS, and WP:OR.

Russian identity is linked to the justification of the war in Ukraine, therefore WP:GS/RUSUKR applies (see also WP:BROADLY), that means that you are not allowed to edit this article before becoming extended confirmed, while I'm allowed to revert you (Remedies C and D of WP:GS/RUSUKR). Rsk6400 (talk) 09:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

This article was made for the Slavic Russians
We can extend the body with regard to arguments above.

To omit the sections reserved for the ethnic Russians and make this article a multicultural salad like the article Germans is pointless
You don't need to oppose that since nobody has this intention. See the actual argument above. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 10:02, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

The article is currently categorized under Category:Ethnic groups in Europe and Category:East Slavs, so please do not repeatedly restore contested edits. Mellk (talk) 05:29, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Mellk, you surely are able to reply to my concerns, aren't you? Rsk6400 (talk) 06:17, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

It is strange for the lead to include both an ethnic group and nationality while the body refers to ethnic Russians specifically, including origins and history, genetics, geographic distribution etc. This has been discussed many times before, since the article has been referring to the ethnic group for 20 years. You may have noticed the archives on this talk page and other associated pages; rossiyane does not even redirect here. I would suggest to gain consensus on the wording first before continually restoring your changes. Mellk (talk) 06:29, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

"Rossiyane" translates to Russians. The article body can be extended to talk about both meanings but the lead should inform the reader that when they see the word "Russians", it may mean either Русские — Википедия (wikipedia.org) or Россияне — Википедия (wikipedia.org) . ManyAreasExpert (talk) 11:45, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

The wording should be proposed here and then there should be clear consensus to change this. The wording in the edit by Rsk6400 is something akin to a dictionary definition. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Mellk (talk) 11:55, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Everybody can improve it instead of deleting. ... may also denote the people of the multi-ethnic Russian state , as it was, is a good start for me. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:01, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

The body already includes non- ethnic Russians: Osip Mandelstam, Grigori Perelman, Sergei Eisenstein (father was no ethnic Russian). Shall we really discuss whether Gogol was an ethnic Russian and then delete him from the article? Rsk6400 (talk) 16:55, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

He was "hybrid" or something ethnicity (from Gogol article). ManyAreasExpert (talk) 17:20, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

The formula "who share a common Russian ancestry, culture, and history" was introduced by user Danloud in this edit. That user has been blocked indefinitely for sockpuppetry. Rsk6400 (talk) 05:52, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

A similar sentence was present before that edit. This was four years ago and the same editor added the bulk of the culture section, so I am not sure how WP:BE can be applied here.

What do you propose should be changed in the lead? The other issue is that the population figures for example represent ethnic Russians (the population of Russia is over 140 million, not 105 million). Before there was Rossiyane but it was merged to Russian citizenship law (see Talk:Rossiyane). If nobody can agree on what the article should fundamentally be about, then this will only cause problems in the future. Mellk (talk) 13:54, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd suggest we solve first the question whether the clause who share a common Russian ancestry, culture, and history should be removed. It is completely unsourced, and so IMHO it has to be removed. Mellk, if you object to the removal, I think you should provide a source. Rsk6400 (talk) 09:59, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

No, instead of your opinion that it's "completely unsourced" it is necessary to refer to the definition of ethnic group. One ethnic group by definition shares a common language, culture, traditions, heritage and history. Otherwise, it is not an ethnic group at all, and within such a group it is impossible to live in the same village, practice farming, craft and trade, communicate effectively with each other, practice a religion, support common traditions and superstitions, understand the context, use idioms and proverbs, make jokes and other things hundreds and thousands of years ago and for hundreds of years. This is the history of all of humankind. _ruASG⁺¹  05:28, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

• I proposed to restore the deleted article Rossiyane: Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2024 October 6. _ruASG⁺¹  04:42, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
  • It appears that the article was deleted without proper discussion and against the rules. I now restored the article as Multiethnic people of Russia (this is from the preamble to the 1993 Russian Constitution). I invite to improve the article. _ruASG⁺¹  06:15, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

    That article was not deleted but merged after correct discussion, Talk:Multiethnic_people_of_Russia#Requested_move_5_January_2015. The only problem that I found so far was that it should have been merged into this article. Rsk6400 (talk) 07:05, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

    • • The article was de facto deleted because the content of the article was lost, and the original topic of discussion was renaming, not deletion and it was against the rules. The notion of citizenship law and the notion of people are different things. These two notions are impossible to merge. An article such as Kosovars exists separately from Kosovo citizenship and ethnic Albanians for example. It's the same in the case of British people (with British citizenship) and English people, European Americans and Americans (with American citizenship), Belgians (with Belgian citizenship) and Flemish people, Swiss people (with Swiss citizenship) and Germans, Han people and Chinese people (with Chinese citizenship). _ruASG⁺¹  08:00, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

        @RuASG: WP is built on consensus, that means if a formal discussion reaches a result, a single editor must not revert that result without first gaining consensus in a new discussion. And you are also edit warring. I can't see that any rules have been broken in 2015. On English Wikipedia, "delete" has a special meaning. It needs an admin to perform a deletion. BTW: I'm not sure whether you grasp the difference between the two meanings of "people" in English. If the Russian word for "(Multiethnic) people" is narod, the article title you propose is probably wrong or at least misleading. Please self-revert. Rsk6400 (talk) 09:22, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request 27 June 2024

Revert to revision# 1230356292 from 22 June 2024, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Russians&oldid=1230356292

Edits on 23 June 2024 removed Brazil, Germany, United States, and Israel from the Russian Diaspora list, making it appear that no Russians live in those countries.

I see the reasoning above, the editor removed those countries and population numbers as they included "russian jews" and "russian germans" which the editor does not believe belong in the russian ethnic group. However, it is more appropriate to keep these countries and the population number in the list, with the notation of who is included in that population number, so that readers can be informed. Additionally, this is already clarified in the article which states, "A large Russian diaspora (sometimes including Russian-speaking non-Russians), estimated at 25 million people,[41] has developed all over the world, with notable numbers in the United States, Germany, Brazil, and Canada." Making it more misleading that three of the named countries, United States, Germany, and Brazil, are not in the list.

74.218.78.226 (talk) 13:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.218.78.226 (talk) 13:45, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

If we start this article with a certain definition (which I think is wrong), then we have to follow that definition. Rsk6400 (talk) 17:29, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 04:43, 2 July 2024 (UTC)