Talk:Torah scroll

Writing a Sefer Torah

It would be good to have a section describing the merit of writing a Sefer Torah. It would be of particular benefit to those trying to raise funds for a Sefer from the general population. Pachai 15:12, 27 November 2006 (UTC) seth@pachai.net

Usage section

In the "Usage" section, Sefer Torah#Usage, it says:

• During cantillation, following the often dense text is aided by a yad ("hand"), a metal finger-shaped point that protects the scrolls by avoiding unnecessary contact of the skin with the parchment.

And then, you look on the right hand side of the page, and what's there? Some imbecile with his sweaty finger on the text! I'm not going to comment any further on this gross mistreatment of the sefer (by which I mean I just deleted my rant), but the image clearly conflicts with the (correct) text. The image is also questionable, since it says at [1] that it comes from [2], which hmmm, inconvenience of inconveniences, doesn't seem to have the image (anymore?). (I searched there for "torah", "torahscroll", "sefer" and "scroll".) Tomer ^TALK 05:50, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

This page definitely needs a different image. No image at all would be better than a picture of someone directly touching the scroll with their hand. The picture conflicts with what is written in the article. Anyone who cares about Torah scrolls would be offended by that picture. Anyone who is ignorant about Torah scrolls would be confused by the picture. delete it! Onethang 02:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the Usage section should come before the Production section? My reasoning is, "Tadir", in order of frequency...a Sefer is used 4 times/week, 17-18 times/month...whereas, an ordinary person might write just one in his lifetime if he is lucky....then, there could be a segue of some sort, explaining Dedication.

Pachai 16:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Security

• Kevin Poulsen (June 6, 2005). New Tech Protects Ancient Torahs. Wired. An article about two new security systems to protect agains Torah theft. Possibly this would be an interesting topic to cover in the article. dbenbenn | talk 18:22, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

{{Torah portion}}

{{Torah portion}} does not belong on this page; it's irrelevant (and too long btw).—msh210℠ 19:09, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

• Hi msh: (1) The Sefer Torah is divided into 54 portions, known as Parshas (parshiyot) and each week's Torah reading of a Parsha (Torah portion) is read directly from a Sefer Torah scroll in synagogue on Shabbat, as well as on Monday and Thursday mornings. (2) The template {{Torah portion}} is at the bottom of the Sefer Torah article's page, so essentially it's part of the "See also" section which is a legitimate way of connecting related and connected topics on an article. (3) If a reader finds the {{Torah portion}} to be "too intrusive" then any reader is free to click "Hide" on the top right section of the template's heading which shrinks it to an unobtrusive one liner. Finally, (4) the {{Torah portion}} is presently diligently updated weekly by User:Dauster early each Sunday so that any readers may learn more about the weekly Parsha. User:Dauster summarizes each week's Parsha and adds some interesting graphics which surely adds life and color to a page that may gain the attention of readers who don't know much about this subject and may want to learn more. Please refer all further comments and discussions to one centralized location at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Template: Torah portion Thank you. IZAK 07:42, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Merge?

Should this page be merged or linked with the Torah page? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pachai (talk • contribs) 16:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

Of course not. Torah is for the five books. - crz crztalk 16:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

"Non-scroll book"

"The text of the Torah is also commonly printed (for non-ritual functions) as a (non-scroll) book, known as a Humash ("five", for the five books of Moses), often accompanied by commentaries or translations." If I understand correctly, the word the article writer was looking for is codex. If this is the case, the correct word (with wikilinking to help readers unfamiliar with the word) would make the sentence clearer. I'd make the change myself, but am unfamiliar with the intricacies of Torahs. Does anyone with better knowledge than mine know of a shade of meaning I'm missing? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.52.69.217 (talk) 16:19, 5 April 2007 (UTC).

Edited. Kindly change it back if there is, in fact, a distinction I'm not aware of.

halacha

Where are the references to halachic sources?--Mrg3105 11:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

A source or reference as to why klaf/parchment is required would be useful as well. The article simply states that to be a fact without giving the source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.120.68.93 (talk) 18:02, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

errors over centuries

I recall learning that a comparison of the oldest and newest torahs shows a total of five characters having changed over the last 3000 years or so, showing a fairly strong fidelity over numerous copies. Is this the article to add it to, and can someone more familiar do so?ThuranX (talk) 23:48, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Capitalization

The object in question is variously referred to in the article as both a "sefer Torah" and a "Sefer Torah." Italicization is also inconsistent. What should be used? --Shay Guy (talk) 20:49, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I would prefer Sefer Torah, italicized. ypnypn (talk) 02:58, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

What are "ornamentations?"

Are they taggim? Maimonides holds that a sefer Torah does not need taggim to begin with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Octologue (talk • contribs) 21:59, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Repair / disposal of the sefer Torah

Hello everyone. If it would be of value, could someone add a section on repair of the sefer Torah, or the proper means of disposal when it can no longer be repaired? I'm neither Jewish nor a scholar of Judaism, so I can't provide the text myself. Kind regards, Notreallydavid (talk) 00:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Silk screen Sifrei Torah - new section

There should be a section here about silk screen sifrei torah, which the reknowned posek Rav Yitzchok Abadi said is good for "mehadrin min hamihadrin", and many other poskim agree http://kashrut.org/scrollproject/ .

This process produces beautiful sifrei torah for a third of the price.

Arrangement of right-hand margin

It seems that there is an extreme excess of photographs (eight, at last count). This, in addition to the side {{Navbox}}, means that there is a lot of empty article space with nothing but right-hand photos. This must be solved. ypnypn (talk) 03:01, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Arrangement of right-hand margin

It seems that there is an extreme excess of photographs (eight, at last count). This, in addition to the side {{Navbox}}, means that there is a lot of empty article space with nothing but right-hand photos. This must be solved. ypnypn (talk) 03:01, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

"Oldest Complete Torah Scroll"

Fyi, Oldest Complete Torah Scroll Found in Bologna, [3]. 86.171.162.156 (talk) 18:55, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

End of 12th century. Good to know. Missing from the article. Arminden (talk) 16:09, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Sifrei torah?

In proper hebrew shouldn't the correct plural for sefer be "sfarim" ? There should be an explanation on the origin of this unusual form (of course I guess it's from Yiddisch, but why the unusual form anyway?) --Svartalf (talk) 14:10, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

this is what's called a construct state. GordonGlottal (talk) 16:30, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Torah shield

This article (nor Torah article) does not mention the Torah shields, kind of silver plates with name of the reading. Could that be added? --Agatino Catarella (talk) 10:48, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

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Please use ENGLISH, not a yeshiva mix of Hebrew and English

Arminden (talk) 08:07, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

Even the Chabad article explaining the term uses the English name. This "Sefer Torah" thing on English Wikipedia is worse than ridiculous. More Orthodox than Chabad. They're out there in the world missionising, and know when you lose your public if you don't speak in an intelligible manner. Here I am, praising Chabad, may I burn (my toe in the shower) over that, and the Wiki fundamentalists along with my toe. Arminden (talk) 09:32, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Since when have complete Torah scrolls been produced?

Not collections of scrolls, stored and read separately, but a more or less "complete" scroll, with all the first five books of the Hebrew Bible on parchment sheets sawn together into one single scroll? I'm not asking for the oldest copy that happened to survive (the Bologna scroll), nor for the year Moses put pen to paper, but for a scholarly opinion/theory/fact about the beginning of the practice. Thanks!
PS: I need to explain my question. The Dead Sea Scrolls are one indication that the different books making up the Torah were produced and kept separately, at least sometimes, and until some time in history; was it the rule? Or were they used for study, while the Torah for worship was complete? Did the Temple priests need a Torah for worship? If not, and this is the core of my question, were synagogues using complete Torah scrolls while the Temple was still standing? If so, since when; and if not, when did the syagogues introduce this practice? So when did the practice of sawing 5 books together into one scroll come up? I expect there to be some indication in, say, the Talmud or later Jewish sources. I suppose practicing Orthodox Jews would say that this was the only way ever since Moses wrote down his 5 books, and while it would be interesting to have this confirmed, this wouldn't be the answer I am loooking for. Thank you and cheers, Arminden (talk) 07:29, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
I found & added a first answer: not before 4th c. CE. Important. Please don't remove, add if you know/find more. Arminden (talk) 06:39, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

CONTENT needs to be clearly stated

Oposite to the opinion of Editor2020, I am 100% convinced that the lead must contain, prominently, an explanation of the content of such a scroll. Why? Just click on wikilink Tora and read: it can also mean the entire Hebrew Bible, and even more. The definition is totally incomplete here w/o specifying: a Torah scroll contains the Pentateuch, the five Books of Moses. Define your topic, clearly and in a complete manner, is the first duty of an editor to an enyclopaedia. Imagining that, c'mon, the user must know that much, is a big mistake. He doesn't. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 06:39, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Jasher / Jashar?

Unless I am remembering incorrectly, other articles refer to this as a possible interpretation of "book of Jasher" / "book of Jashar" which is in the Tanakh in two places. But there is nothing in the article about "Jash...". Can someone more-knowledgable add this, please? Thank you! Misty MH (talk) 20:42, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Move to proper English name, Torah scroll

Nobody brought any counterarguments to my almost 5 years old post (see above). Starting procedure to move page to Torah scroll, the appropriate name on English Wiki. Arminden (talk) 15:35, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 9 March 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Adumbrativus (talk) 03:11, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

---

Sefer Torah → Torah scroll – English Wiki prescribes the use of English terms when widely known and used frequently for centuries, such as Torah scroll, rather than original-language ones, such as Sefer Torah. The article must be renamed accordingly. For that purpose, the redirect blocking the move must be removed. Arminden (talk) 16:01, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Srnec (talk) 20:03, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't object to this change but noting that (in re WP:RECENT) "torah scroll" only overtook "sefer torah" in 2012 according to Ngram. GordonGlottal (talk) 22:05, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@GordonGlottal: Ngrams is case sensitive. Srnec (talk) 22:35, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't know much about these tools, but there is certainly a "ghetto phenomenon" behind what you're saying: there always would be more people close to the subject to look up details, but if the encyclopedia doesn't remain open and useful to everybody, it misses its purpose. We'd end up with only people who know some Hebrew finding their way around Judaism topics, Arab speakers around Islam, and so forth. But the encyclopedia as a concept has always been a universalist project, and wide access within the limits of not steeping too low in terms of educational requirements beats supporting and pushing particularist jargons. Simply put, old and well-established English terms must be preferred over foreign ones which aren't widely accepted loanwords. For those we have redirects and special sections about names and etymology. Arminden (talk) 02:00, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.