The Lady’s Not For Byrning/West Coast Avengers #44

West Coast Avengers # 44 (May 1989)

“Better A Widow…”

Writer/Penciler: John Byrne

Inker: Mike Machlan

Sharon: First things first: the cover of West Coast Avengers #44 has always reminded me of Avengers #161…you remember, the famous Wanda covered by ants and writhing in pain cover by George Perez, from 1977. Well, the cover for WCA #44 may be devoid of ants, but poor Wanda is in no less distress. The composition of the two covers strikes me as being very similar—on the Perez cover the emphasis is on an upstage frontal view of Wanda’s odalisque-like torso; on Byrne’s cover she’s also upstage but this time we get a dorsal view. Both covers have a central, overtly aggressive male figure who’s projecting something upwards, and who is flanked by (seemingly) impotent males. But enough symbolism, let’s turn to page one …

Sharon: Well folks, right away Byrne shows the remains of the Vision’s head and face and we see what exactly what Byrne thinks of the Vision—that the Avenger is a collection of wires and metal and plastic. Ugh. What’s even more chilling is the text, as the expository caption tells us: “He (the Vision) is no longer aware of anything.” There’s no doubt this is not a joke and this pile of circuits and plastic is meant to be the Vision…who has been one of Marvel’s most vital characters in every sense of the word over the preceding two decades.

Karen: This image filled me with dread way back when I first read it in 1989. It still unnerves me today.

Doug: The first two panels of this story really fly in the face of what Roy Thomas and Neal Adams had done in the classic Kree-Skrull War story where Hank had to infiltrate the Vision’s body – this mess of metal looks nothing like Adams’ vision (no pun intended).

Karen: You’re right Doug – that was something I noticed immediately when I read this. Byrne basically ignored what had come before to be able to tell his story. I believe he had to emphasize the mechanical aspect of the Vision in order to dehumanize him. But in the past, we’d never seen anything that looked so mechanical in the Vision.

Sharon: Yes, I agree with both of you…here’s where Byrne’s concept of the Vision really diverges from Adam and Thomas’s. In Avengers #94 (1971), in the sequence Doug refers to, it was clearly shown that the Vision had a circulatory system much like a human’s. In Avengers #81, the sight of Wanda in peril causes the Vision’s “synthetic blood” to course “more swiftly through plastoid veins.” And of course at the conclusion of Avengers #58, he shed what appears for all intents and purposes to be a tear. So it seems pretty clear that his creator (Roy) intended the Vision to be a sort of human clone. Heck, Thomas said it outright in #57 (Hank Pym: He (the Vision) is every inch a human being—except that all his bodily organs are constructed of synthetic materials.”) Now, all of a sudden, Byrne makes it a point to show us that the Vision contains mechanical parts and wiring and materials you’d see in a computer. So we get a picture of the Vision as a machine!

Sharon: Back to the WCA story: Wanda cannot believe her eyes and ears as Bobbi helpfully tells here, yes, that this is indeed the Vision and that the dismantling and erasing was part of the plan. It turns out the brains behind the plan is one Mr. Brock (who has been apprehended by Wonder Man). Bobbi had assumed that the group behind this was KGB, but as we learn, this is a “worldwide joint venture” and in fact, Brock, the leader, is Canadian—hey, just like writer-artist Byrne himself!

Sharon: Hank Pym is not overly concerned about the dismantling; he is fairly certain he can reassemble the Vision and reminds Wanda that the Vision is based on the original Human Torch, the “most sophisticated android ever created.” Hank is more worried about the erasure of Vision’s mind and its accumulated data; without inclusion of the Vision’s memories, the rebuilt Vision will be a blank slate. So it seems that Simon Williams’ “brain patterns” were just a matrix upon which the Vision had accumulated his own experiences and reactions and memories. If all of this were erased, the Vision would be starting over. Based on Hank’s description, it seems clear to me, then, that the Vision is no mere “machine” (or copy of Simon), since the Vision has (or had) memories and experiences of his own—a thinking mind of his own. Later in the story, Hank says that the cartel has “destroyed all trace of his (Vision’s) former personality. For all intents and purposes, he’s dead.”

Doug: I know Hank Pym is supposed to be one of Marvel’s heavy hitters in the brains department, but do either of you find it a bit of a stretch that he’s a master of biochemistry and robotics? Seems an odd combination – yet most helpful here!

Sharon: LOL, sort of like doctors on soap operas, where general practitioners can do everything from open-heart surgery to delivering babies…and they make house calls! I guess it’s not unreasonable, though, to assume that Hank has spent time studying and pursuing additional degrees over the years.Karen: It’s kind of maddening that on one hand, Byrne seems to recognize that the Vision was a thinking, feeling sentient being, and yet, he also seems to view him as nothing more than a hard drive that can be written over.

Doug: Karen, I guess I’d never fully examined my thoughts on the Vision before we started this arc. I always knew, of course, that he could think/reason/feel. But, and this is a huge but (again, no pun intended!), I guess my sense was that as an artificial construct his cognitive and emotive capabilities were reliant on a series of if-then statements (anyone else take computer programming classes way back when in the BASIC language?). I guess not to the extent that the Sentinels live as reactionary devices, but along those lines. Does that make him a less-valuable teammate? No, I don’t see it that way. Even if he did rely solely on brain patterns or Ultron’s programming, he operated with a sense of benevolence, loyalty, and compassion. But the artificial always supersedes the man for me.

Karen: I don’t know that you could place emotional responses in the framework of ‘if-then’ statements, and the Vision (and even Ultron) were exceedingly emotional! While I could buy that the Vision’s ability to feel is a result of ‘brain patterns’, I never understood why Ultron was so emotional – until Kurt Busiek revealed in volume 3 that Hank had provided his own brain patterns for that villain! I thought that was great idea. Although I still don’t have a solid idea of what a brain pattern is, as a plot device it does its job to move both story and character, and that’s good enough for me.

Sharon: Vision always seemed somewhat like the Doom Patrol’s original Robotman, a human brain/mind trapped in a synthetic body, though the difference would be the Vision’s body and organs are made of more lifelike, biocompatible materials than Robotman’s body. Before WCA #44 I’d consider Vizh to be a clone of a human: but here Byrne reduces him to a machine.

Sharon: We’ve spoken of Byrne’s way with expressions before; but I really love the panels here with Wanda and Hank. She is angry and distraught and incredulous and he’s facing a daunting task while trying to keep it together, for her (and everyone else’s) sake. Byrne manages to convey so much emotion here. You know, it’s not only their mouths (as Doug pointed out, a specialty of Byrne’s) but also their eyebrows. Unlike some artists, Byrne doesn’t give his characters uniformly big beautiful doe eyes; but we see realistic brows knotted with worry or fear or anger.

Karen: I’ve always thought he was a skilled artist, although for some reason, his work seems dated to me now. I can look at someone like Perez and it still looks fresh to me, but Byrne’s work definitely goes with a certain time period for me.

Doug: I’d agree that Byrne lives somewhere in my memories of comics in the 1980’s. He is instantly recognizable, with the elongated torsos and long striding figures.

Sharon: I actually have a better appreciation of Byrne’s art after rereading this. I was never crazy about his FF art (though his writing/stories were so strong there that the art was just an afterthought to me), but I really like what I see here. His depictions of Wanda and Hank are especially captivating: she’s presented visually as this über-feminine creature (wild flowing hair, perfect hourglass figure, sensual features) and he’s handsome, blond, All-American, smart—but he appears to be very much human, without the exaggerated physique of, say, Simon. And Byrne imbues the other characters, such as Jan and Simon and Bobbi and Clint, with individuality. Quite a difference from the uniformity imparted by the Silver Age artists I was weaned on.

Sharon: Regarding the original Human Torch (who, as mentioned, was considered pretty much human back in the Golden Age), who shows up but his creator, Dr. Phineas Horton (Jan had discovered him in WCA #42, being held captive by the same KGB—er, “international” group that duped Bobbi). Dr. Horton asserts that the Vision is “not” his Torch (as was commonly believed at the time, ever since the Vision’s origin was revealed during the Celestial Madonna saga many years earlier).

Karen: Well, I think this gets at the root of the problem: it seems like Byrne wanted to bring back the original Torch (which he does a few issues later) but couldn’t do it with the Vision in the way. So he just brushed aside years of work by other writers and artists to get his way. Yes, I’m biased here, but this does annoy me. My only solace is that Busiek came along with Avengers Forever and pretty much restored the old origin.

Doug: As I’d said earlier, if they’d only kept Toro alive back in Sub-Mariner #14, this might all have been unnecessary.

Sharon: At the time of Sub-Mariner #14, Marvel may not have wanted to risk another lawsuit by Carl Burgos, or bad feelings/negative publicity. Burgos created the original Human Torch and probably had a hand in creating Toro too and had previously sued Marvel over the Torch in the 1960s (and he received a settlement, even though back then comic characters such as the Torch were considered the property of the company and not the individual creator’s). So perhaps there were legal or ethical issues to consider at the time.

Sharon: Byrne then takes a couple of detours. First, he segues into the feral Tigra subplot (Hawkeye’s involved); and then we go back to Byrne’s X-Men roots as we see a display of all known mutants at the time, who are being scrutinized for —what else? — a nefarious plan of some sort. Of course, since this is an Avengers title, the baddies settle on Wanda (the Beast is deemed “too unstable.”) We’ll learn more next issue, but it’s an interesting concept. Did Byrne assume an Avengers reader would recognize all these mutants, most of whom were mainstays of the X books? Was this panoply a testament to the X-Men’s stunning dominance at the time? At any rate, in the space of only a couple of pages, Byrne economically and deftly integrates these subplots into the story.

Karen: Byrne really puts Wanda through the wringer in his run here!

Sharon: Back to the main story: Byrne then has an angry Wanda destroy the compound with her hex power. It’s destruction on a massive scale. I find it interesting how Byrne characterizes Wanda’s power (in the caption): as she uses her power, “reality itself begins to shift and flow…” What, no mention of probability shifting—now it’s acknowledged she in fact affects reality? Byrne then does cite the “odds” (probability) of the building crumbling, so I guess it’s the same thing, but I was surprised to see so overt a mention of her affecting reality here. And while I understand Wanda’s immense grief and anger, it just seemed like an excessively destructive reaction from her. I mean, if I were Wanda, I would have punched Bobbi’s lights out instead!

Karen: Well, I’ve always seen Wanda as being very emotional. In the past she has always been protective of the Vision and I was less surprised by her reaction than by the fact that she was powerful enough to cause so much destruction! But one has to wonder if this influenced later writers to treat Wanda’s abilities as though she had control over reality, and not the ability to affect outcomes. I think there’s a real difference there.

Sharon: Wanda wonders how anyone could have done this to the Vision; after all, as an Avenger he’s risked his life for mankind over and over again. Byrne has Hank explain that the group who dismantled/erased the Vision looked at him as nothing more than a machine. As if to underscore this view, Wonder Man is shown carrying canisters containing the “pseudo-organic” parts of the Vision. Not pretty.

Doug: I think Reed Richards seemed to have a similar attitude toward the Original Torch after the battle with Quasimodo in FF Annual #4. I’ve always found it odd that Reed didn’t confiscate the Torch’s body, if for no other reason than to keep him out of the hands of a potential do-badder. Here these “scientists” seemed to have seen the Vision as a bunch of components rather than as the sum of the parts.

Karen: I’ve never been comfortable with Reed Richards' decision in that issue. It still seems so cold – and of course, the Thing (the ‘monster’) is the one who appears to feel sympathy for the android Torch! That, at least, was in character.

Sharon: There’s more heartache in store for Wanda: the nanny says Thomas and William (Wanda’s boys) are missing! But Wanda comes upon them and they’re fine. Thinking the nanny is playing a sick practical joke, Wanda fires the confused woman. A couple of days later Wanda is with her children and Wonder Man stops by. Simon starts to say that he has never fully bought the Vision-Human Torch connection since Immortus—not exactly a trustworthy sort—is the one who related it. Wanda and Simon’s conversation is cut short as they hear terrible noises coming from Hank’s lab.

Karen: I have to admit, I never liked the idea of Wanda conjuring up children. It seemed utterly ridiculous and avoided what could have been some interesting storylines: Wanda wanting children, Vision feeling guilty or inadequate because he can’t give her a family, etc. I think Steve Englehart’s handling of the couple after their marriage really went in a bad direction.

Sharon: It surprised me that Englehart went the conventional route by marrying them off and then giving them children (which he intended to be real, not figments of anyone’s imagination or shards of anyone’s soul). As for the children’s conception, it certainly strained credulity (yes, even in a comic book) because Wanda had used her seemingly amped up hex power (along with some help from Agatha Harkness) to defy probability and become pregnant (in the second Vision and Scarlet Witch series). I agree, Karen, that the more interesting angle would have been to show the couple as barren and their struggles to cope with their feeling about that.

Doug: Englehart was never afraid to be “out there” with some of his storylines.

Sharon: Back to WCA #44: Wanda and Simon are attacked by a partially reconstructed Vision. And if there was any doubt as to Byrne’s intention, it is dispelled here as he presents a truly grotesque interpretation of the Vision, sheaths of muscles, tendons, etc. attached to a metal (I think) framework. I will say Byrne is extremely imaginative, and goes for the jugular; but did he have to reduce a once proud, noble character to—this? Hawkeye joins the battle and but the Vision is too powerful; it’s apparent Wanda’s power is needed to even the odds. But even though Simon and Clint are in danger of losing their lives, Wanda is paralyzed—she can’t bring herself to use her hex power against the one she loves, her husband the Vision. “What if I make him explode?” she cries. I found that to be a very canny statement by Wanda, but it’s kind of an odd statement from her since it implies that she sees him as “manufactured” (capable of exploding). Is this really how she thought of her husband? In the meantime, Hank saves the day. I really like this depiction of Hank; he’s smart and composed but compassionate. After Wanda, of all the characters involved, he’s the most vocal about the humanity of the Vision.

Karen: This reconstructed Vision reminded me strongly of the Terminator. The first film in that series had come out five years before. But the image does present us with a much more frightening Vision than we’ve ever seen. But on the other hand, human skeletons also arouse fear in some people.

Doug: I find the imagery of the metal and the synthetic muscle to be very strange. I keep thinking back to Ultron, a robot, creating the Vision. With Ultron’s obvious hatred for humanity, I’ve wondered why he would have gone to such great lengths to make his construct so outwardly (and, we thought, inwardly) human-looking. It really is a big mess – maybe there were more questions than we thought when the Vision was allegedly the Original Torch.

Sharon: That’s Byrne’s point. He’s dismissing the original concept of the Vision (from the Roy-Steve Englehart days). Byrne has gone on record many times as saying he hated the idea of the cozy little family unit for Vision and Wanda, so his solution was to 1) show the Vision was nothing more than a glorified machine and 2) reveal the kids to be imaginary. I consider anything to be fair game for writers/artists; as creative people working with fictional characters, they are entitled to their interpretations. But it seems to me that Byrne could have made his point about the implausibility of the Vision-Wanda union by just dealing with the children--he didn’t have to also literally and figuratively dismantle the Vision.

Karen: I also agree with you Sharon on the portrayal of Hank Pym here. It’s actually very consistent with the way he was shown in Avengers 57 and 58. He seems to view the Vision as a synthetic man, emphasizing the human qualities of the Vision.

Sharon: Yes, Hank seems to be the only one (besides Wanda) who feels that way. Jan and Simon seem less concerned about the Vision. Also, Hank is consistently shown to be solicitous toward Wanda here –and not because he wants to get into her pants (like Simon does!).

Sharon: Toward the end of this issue, the government sends a “watchdog” of sorts to join the ranks of the West Coast branch of the Avengers. In an amusing panel, the Avengers see a shadowy figure approaching and think it’s Cap…but it turns out to be U.S. Agent. Even in the midst of a dark tale like this, Byrne manages to inject humor here and there.

Doug: Anyone think that USAgent was Marvel’s answer to Guy Gardner’s popularity over at DC back in these days?

Karen: That’s a good point. At the very least, they were the two biggest jerks in their respective universes.

Sharon: Yep, the similarities are striking. And what a way to end this issue!

Byrne Notice! West Coast Avengers #42

West Coast Avengers # 42 (March 1989)

“One of Our Androids is Missing!”

Writer/Penciler: John Byrne

Sharon: Confession time: I was a huge comic book fan as a kid but inexplicably, I stopped reading comics in 1972. My last comic back then was Avengers #105, in which a rather large obstacle to the Scarlet Witch and the Vision’s incipient romance was introduced—in this particular issue, he discovered that unlike humans, he was unaffected by love.

Sharon: Flash-forward 30-plus years later, when --just as inexplicably—I got back into comics. I had a lot of catching up to do and sought out back issues with a vengeance (helped immeasurably by online comics vendors such as Mile High Comics, New Kadia and Metropolis Comics). I was surprised to find that during my hiatus, Wanda and Vizh had overcome the odds and had gotten married at some point, but they were also the proud parents of two young boys! Ah, I guess the Vision had been capable of love, after all…

Doug: While I was away from comics during my high school years Marvel started doing mini-series. A nice thing after all – a great way to tell self-contained stories of characters who might otherwise only see the light of day in team or team-up books. So from 1980-85, apparently Wanda and Vizh found a way, so to speak. And I must say that whatever reasons were given then must be infinitely better than what Bendis cooked up a few years ago. Ugh… Incidentally, Wanda will give a recap of those circumstances in our next issue – WCA #43.

Sharon: So after I’d returned to comics I picked up West Coast Avengers #42, originally published in 1989. WCA #42 was John Byrne’s first issue on this particular title. I’d previously read—and enjoyed--many of his Fantastic Four issues, which collectively read like a sprawling novel…very rich and dense. So I was very eager to read his version of Earth’s Mightiest Heroes, or at least the west coast branch of such.

Doug: I had been a Byrne junkie from his X-Men days. Byrne has a very distinct style, whether inked by himself as here, or by his frequent collaborator, Terry Austin. I’ll say this about him doing his own work – this is much more polished than what he would turn out later for Dark Horse with his creator-owned “John Byrne’s Next Men”. That work was very scratchy – it appeared to me to have been rushed. This work was nice, clean… Of course, his best work (arguably) would come shortly after this run when he moved to DC to revamp Superman in the Man of Steel limited series and the renumbered Superman magazine.

Karen: Well you guys have heard me say this before, but I don’t think anyone complemented Byrne’s pencils as well as Terry Austin. I really don’t care for Mike Machlan’s inks here – the line work just seems thin and without weight.

Sharon: Yes, I agree the inking didn’t really enhance the pencils. The result was rather delicate. When I opened WCA #42, I was greeted by a splash page featuring the Scarlet Witch’s face, beneath an ominous title—“One of Our Androids is Missing!” Uh oh, that did not augur well. I must say that Byrne drew an absolutely beautiful Wanda.

Sharon: Turn the page and immediately we’re plunged into a mystery: Wanda does not know where the Vision is. Apparently over the past years, the married couple has always slept in the same bed even though the Vision has no need of sleep. This fine morning, without warning, Wanda wakes up and –the Vision is gone! Byrne then adds the rest of the cast—Hawkeye, Hank Pym (this is during his non-costumed “Dr. Pym” phase), Tigra, Wonder Man (sporting his infamous mullet), the Wasp, and a seemingly traitorous Mockingbird. Archenemy Ultron also makes an appearance, and a battle rages. The heroes manage to beat Ultron but it turns out to be false Ultron—a diversion. Hank promises to get to the bottom of it (and facetiously utters the command “Avengers Disassemble!”) Wanda thinks of the missing Vision and his creation, his legacy as the original Human Torch; how the Torch “died” and was resurrected by Ultron as the Vision; Vizh’s first encounter with the Avengers and his subsequent membership (in Avengers #57-58, which was recently chronicled here!) Though these events are presented as the reverie of the understandably worried Wanda, the sequence really underscores the man-made aspect of the Vision.

Doug: Just a quick comment on Simon’s haircut – at about the same time Johnny Storm was sporting a very contemporary ‘do. Not attractive, then or now!

Doug: Although I am not a fan of Tigra, I smiled at the little subplot Byrne planted with her. He has always been a master of weaving several threads through a story. The concept of this particular thread seems somewhat tired however – an animal-based character losing control to a feral side. Wolverine had struggled with this for years in X-Men, so perhaps it’s no surprise that Byrne would bring said concept to WCA and Tigra.

Doug: Can I say that I just love the classic look of Ultron?? He was especially well-drawn by George Perez during the “Bride of Ultron” arc in Avengers #’s 161-162 and 170-171. Byrne gives a capable version here. And although the battle turned out to be for naught, what with “Ultron” revealed as a phony, there were still some great, typically-hopeless moments.

Karen: I thought Byrne handled the characters well enough, although I could do without Hawkeye referring to Wanda as “Wanj” – where the heck did that come from?

Sharon: I know! Maybe Hawk had “Wandjina” (from the Champions of Angor/the Assemblers) on his mind…

Sharon: Well, it turns out that while the Avengers were busy battling the faux Ultron, a computer virus was infecting the Avengers’ systems (Hank had earlier noticed a glitch, prior to the Ultron appearance). Hank delivers the unthinkable news: according to Hank, the “virus has erased all trace of the Vision from our files… the virus has been transmitted to every computer we link with…and in all those systems all trace of the Vision has been obliterated!”

Doug: Hank Pym was portrayed as the leader here that he should always be portrayed as.

Sharon: Yes, I agree, I like how Byrne depicted Hank during the WCA era: a born leader, capable and resourceful. Byrne also drew him in an attractive manner.

Doug: Question: Don’t you think, given the three hour time difference between California and New York that the East Coasters might have alerted the West Coasters first concerning the computer glitch?

Sharon: Wouldn’t it have happened at the same time, but given the time zones it would have been 8am on the West Coast, 11am in the East?

Doug: Ah, excellent point! What I was thinking centered on Byrne’s telling us multiple times how early in the day it was – that most of the crew were still sleeping. I was thinking that if it was, say 6:00 am in California, then it would have been almost mid-morning in the East and more likely that the East Coasters would have caught the virus’ dirty deeds before the West Coasters knew what was going on.

Sharon: Yes, you’re right. Good point. Okay, so Hank’s using words like “erased” and “files” and “links” and “computers” when talking about the missing Avenger. Suddenly, the Vision sounds less like a husband and father and teammate than — well, a system – a bunch of files. In the space of one issue, Byrne established his concept of the Vision.

Doug: One could argue that the very title of this tome established Byrne’s opinion – the Vision is not even a synthozoid as we’ve known him in the past – he has been reduced to an “android”. To me, the term “synthozoid” means synthesis – a bringing together in this case of life and unlife. That being said, however, I would argue that in many ways the Human Torch was much more a “man” than the Vision ever was. The Torch never spoke in cold tones, found human relationships to be more natural, and had empathy without explanation. But in the end, either was still composed of plastic, electrical wires, and motors.

Karen: I would strongly disagree with that last sentence, but I’ll save that for later in our discussion – once Byrne has gutted our hero.

Sharon: Glad you brought up the original Human Torch, Doug. According to Roy Thomas in TwoMorrow’s Justice League Companion (an excellent resource), the fact that the Torch was an android was rarely referred to and “forgotten” within a few issues of the Torch’s debut. Thomas has mentioned in various interviews that he didn’t even know the Torch was an android until the final issue of Marvel Mystery Comics (circa 1949), which contained a story retelling the Torch’s creation. I haven’t read many of the Torch’s Golden Age stories, and none of his 1950s stories, so I don’t know if Roy’s assessment is entirely accurate; but the Torch was usually shown to have functioned like a human being: he would eat, sleep and drink. I even think he had a girlfriend back then!
Sharon: Okay, so the Vision is missing and Hank deduces only an insider could have facilitated the infiltration of the Avengers’ network. As if on cue, Mockingbird (who’s estranged from Hawkeye) shows up.

To be continued…

Here it is! Your Marvel Bullpen Stamp for this post!

Collect 'em all!

Celestial Madonna: Giant-Size Avengers 3

Giant-Size Avengers 33 (1974)

Doug: I’d said in an earlier communiqué that I thought Dave Cockrum’s art was really strong in Giant-Size Avengers #2. I’d like to back off that just a bit after reading GS #3, and particularly concerning the splash page. Even as a first-time reader right before Christmas 1974, the way the Vision was depicted seemed a little odd. His legs look skinny and his face is oddly-shaped. But overall, the issue’s art is good, with dynamic poses and well-choreographed battles.

Karen: Doug, I agree, but I put the blame more on the inker, Joe Giella. When you compare this issue to GS Avengers 2, it’s like night and day. I can only see glimpses of Cockrum’s style here – the inks just render it very plain.

Sharon: This splash page always reminds me of Antony and Cleopatra —“I am dying, Egypt, dying!”

Doug: For all the hackles she’s raised, Mantis is trying hard to be liked at the beginning of this installment. I found it touching that she responded in the manner she did to Vizh’s call for Wanda. Her battle with Midnight was exciting, and for me not only showcased her martial arts skills but also her strength. And on page four, wasn’t that a butt cheek visible?? I know you girls just hate her skirt!!

Sharon: I don’t hate the skirt at all; my earlier point was that it just seemed kind of daring for 1973-4 and I was surprised the artists could get this kind of outfit past the Code. (But as I’d mentioned, the Code was kind of passé at this point.) I like her visuals- - the green and yellow are a great combo (like the Vision?), and the design of her costume showcases her strength, grace, and flexibility.

Karen: I wonder where Mantis would rank in the Marvel U as a martial artist? Over at DC, they have this sort of discussion all the time, and it’s pretty obvious now where everyone with fighting skills stands (they’ve really beefed up Black Canary for an example). But I hardly hear any fan talk about Marvel fighters. Hmmm, I sense potential side-bar material here!

Doug: The camaraderie felt by the Frankenstein monster toward the Vision was touching as well. Quite a dichotomy to the way Boris Karloff murdered that little girl in the original motion picture!

Karen: Aw, come on Doug, he didn’t mean to kill her! They just ran out of flowers. (Actually, I prefer the Young Frankenstein version.)

Doug: Yeah, it was very touching the way he waited for the last bubble to come up before he sauntered off… :P

Zemo’s evolution from mind-slave to uppity Seig Heil-er! was good, and added humor to the story. Interactions with Hawkeye in particular were fun, and again showed Clint’s allegiance to Cap.

The scene when Thor comes upon the dead Iron Man really showed the depths of their friendship, and of Thor’s loyalty to the mortals he’d chosen to surround himself with. His rage was real, and not just played up for melodrama. I’ve missed Thor in the Avengers these past many years. Of course, I’ve missed the Avengers, period, but that’s for another time I guess.

Karen: A good scene; I always like seeing the Thunder God get worked up. Maybe the best time was during the Busiek era, when he thought Captain America had been taken over by the Presence – that was a Thor to be reckoned with!

Doug: The NYPD’s communicator was just cutting-edge technology from Stark Electronics in 1974!!

The scene with Libra was interesting, given that I know how this will turn out in #133. The scene with Wanda barking at Jarvis was so out-of-character. Wanda was really written as a hard-to-like character by Englehart!

Sharon: Sure, but as we’ve noted before, she’s lacking guidance by Pietro and the Vision at this point—she’s on her own for the first time.

Karen: Libra –oh god, what a horrible outfit. The robe and hood was preferable to this skivvies and t-shirt monstrosity.

Sharon: I didn’t mind his pared down costume here; he looks athletic. Though since he’s sporting bare legs (at least, as colored in the tpb) his boots look too much like knee socks…

Doug: Just a note – the coloring in my tpb is really off for this issue, as Wonder Man’s goggles and the Torch’s costume are both orange instead of red. Pretty poor quality control.

Thor’s assault on Kang is furious and unyielding. Wonder Man’s retaliation is equally brutal; the half-splash of Thor and Wonder Man going toe-to-toe is good.

Hawkeye’s screen time in the control room just shows why he was a winner at life and the Swordsman had been a consummate loser. Possessing basically the same skills (or skill level), Hawkeye goes about his business with confidence and a take-charge manner. The Swordsman would have been filled with so much self-doubt.

Karen: Hawkeye has that ‘never give up’ spirit that I think endears him to so many of us. I like to think he got a lot of that from being around Cap. It’s fun to compare his more mature personality on display here with the abrasive a-hole that we saw in his early Avengers days.

Doug: The Torch’s revelation, coming a few years after Neal Adams had spilled the beans when Ant-Man journeyed inside the Vision, was still a surprised to many, I’m sure. What do you think? Do you like this version of the story, or Byrne’s revision?

Karen: When I originally read this, I had never heard of the idea that the Vision had been the Torch, although I was aware of the scene in Avengers 93. I still like this origin for Vizh – and you know I despise what Byrne did. The character never recovered from Byrne’s destruction of him. After that, he was never held in the same regard by the writers (and maybe the fans as well).

Sharon: I don’t think many readers at the time knew of Adams’ idea (that the Vision and original Human Torch were one and the same); Marvel tried to keep this idea under wraps. The only slip up occurred (as we’ve discussed previously (over at the Avengers Assembled forums) when future Marvel staff member Duffy Vohland (then an intern) submitted a “gag” letter that was published in Avengers #115. In the letter Vohland mentions the Neal Adams Gallery interview in which Neal told of his idea that the Vision was really the original Human Torch. This letter was not supposed to be published but it somehow slipped through. But this was the only mention in print (that I know of) of Adams’ Vision-Torch idea- -Marvel really wanted to keep this idea secret.

Now, I always wondered why this concept was pursued so wholeheartedly. I buy the Wonder Man connection, which led to many effective and poignant stories. The relationship to Simon (and by extension, to the Grim Reaper) should have been enough. But why also insist that a new creation (Vision) is really an older hero? This connection always seemed tacked on and forced to me. I understand it was said to be part of Immortus’ plan (retroactively), but why would Marvel editorial think this was a good idea in the first place? Wasn’t the Vision captivating enough on his own—did he really need to be associated to an older android hero?

Doug: It’s interesting that Wonder Man was plucked from the timestream before he’d reformed, which was just before his death. He is simply vicious in his attacks, especially on the wounded Vision. Question about the Vision’s face after this particular battle – it’s bruised and swollen and there is some fluid at the corner of his mouth. Why do you suppose this is? I have read that his body was basically a synthetic human form. But, I don’t recall ever seeing him eat or drink – after all, being solar-powered, what would be the point? So, if he didn’t eat or drink, I would assume that he never had to expel waste of any sort. (I know we got into some of the other points of his physiology in one of the Vision threads on the AA! boards…) Since bruises are caused by pooled blood, and welts by trauma to soft tissue and blood rushing to the area, why would his face look like this? I would guess that there was some fluid coursing through his body, but to me it would seem more like anti-freeze, lubricants, etc. Hmmm…

Karen: It’s always been my assumption that as a synthetic man, Vizh has organs, tissues and fluids that mimic a biological human. So while it is unusual for us to see him banged up this way, I wouldn’t put it out of the realm of possibility. I did find it interesting that we are never shown the Vision’s badly injured arm – “suspended by a thread” – but again, that’s one of the differences between that era and today.

Sharon: Didn’t the Vision’s arm also become badly injured or destroyed in the first Vision-Scarlet Witch series? And only Inhuman science could restore his arm?

Karen: I don’t really get how Immortus was able to revert Zemo to protoplasm. Reverting him to a fetus, or a cluster of cells, OK, that makes sense because he would be regressing him down his own timeline. But protoplasm would suggest to me he is regressing him evolutionarily. Then again, maybe I am just thinking about this a little too much.

Doug: OK, I said above that Englehart (Thomas’ dialogue in this issue) was trying to make Mantis more sympathetic, and then she just cold-heartedly gives an “Oh, well!” to the Vision of all people after being asked about Iron Man. Go figure.

Karen: Yes, Mantis seemed very aloof at the end. The only thing I can think of was that she was purposely trying to not show emotion – although again, I don’t know why she was written that way.

Sharon: She’d never seemed that close to Iron Man, so I found this in character. I think the scene was meant to show that the Vision (who rebukes her here) and Mantis aren’t always in synch.

Doug: Did it seem to you like Immortus’ revelation that he was an alternative form of Kang was just tossed in at the end?

Karen: I was just waiting for Jarvis to announce that he, too, was Kang.
Seriously though, where the hell does Immortus fit in on the Kang Express? After Kang, I believe, but then why is he so wishy-washy all the time? It might almost be a case of Englehart being too clever for his won good.

Doug: And, hasn’t Nathaniel Richards been linked to Kang, if not another facet of him altogether?
The story ends well, and does a nice job of wrapping up this portion of the Celestial Madonna arc. Cockrum’s art on the last few pages is some of the best of the issue.
That Kang will not be around for the rest of the ride is unfortunate; but his return only nine months later led to another very good story (and another great Thor/Kang tussle!!).