JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR SIXTY-SEVEN

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82658 00047
$10.95

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SPRING 2016
A recently discovered unused 1970s Mattel card game illustration. Inks by Mike Royer, new color by Tom Ziuko.
 Glen Gold is still tracking down more original art pages from Thor #158-169, to examine discrepancies and learn what led to so many rejected pages
in Jack’s Galactus origin arc. Here’s one of the framing pages from Thor #158 (1968), the fill-in issue which reprinted Thor’s origin. Jack’s margin note:
“You'll have to send panels..." seems to support the idea that Jack penciled this issue at the last minute, based on phone conversations with Stan.
 Contents
THE
Up Close And
Personal!
OPENING SHOT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
(take a trip through yesterday,
today, and TwoMorrows via Jack)
ISSUE #67, SPRING 2016 C o l l e c t o r
I MET JACK KIRBY . . . . . . . . . . . .25
(a fan recalls the big moment)
INCIDENTAL ICONOGRAPHY . . . . .26
(from Mary Poppins to Agatha
Harkness)
INNERVIEW . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .27
(a very patriotic 1989 interview
with Jack)
GALLERY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .41
(all the things Jack loved most)
KIRBY KINETICS . . . . . . . . . . . . . .50
(Norris Burroughs on the streets of
Jack’s neighborhood)
INNERVIEW . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .52
(Jack discusses race and comics,
in a 1971 interview)
JACK KIRBY, ART CRITIC . . . . . . .54
(Jack’s advice to a promising
fan artist)
TRIBUTE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .56
(the panel discussion from the big
CSUN Kirby Exhibit)
KIRBY OBSCURA . . . . . . . . . . . . .74
(some strange tales before Kirby)
DOWN WITH THE KING! . . . . . . . .76
(another fan’s long friendship with
the Kirbys)
JACK F.A.Q.s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .77
(Mark Evanier moderates the 2015
Comic-Con Tribute Panel, with
Marv Wolfman, Rob Liefeld, David
Spurlock, and Paul Levine)
KIRBY CAMEOS . . . . . . . . . . . . . .81
(has Jack guest-starred in comics
more than Stan Lee?)
JACK KIRBY MUSEUM PAGE . . . .89
(visit & join www.kirbymuseum.org)
COLLECTOR COMMENTS . . . . . . .90
PARTING SHOT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .96

Page one inks: MIKE ROYER

Page one color: TOM ZIUKO

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Jack poses with the Yellow Kid award he received
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www.twomorrows.com their respective companies. All artwork is © Jack Kirby Estate Gods, Newsboy Legion, OMAC, Orion, Sandman, Superman, The Losers, Vykin, Wonder Woman TM & ©DC Comics • Agatha
Harkness, Ardina, Beast, Black Panther, Bucky, Captain America, Civil War, Don Blake, Dr. Doom, Eternals, Fantastic Four,
unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter is © the respective Galactus, General Argyle Fist, Hatch-22, Hercules, Hulk, Human Torch, Ikaris, Iron Man, Karnilla, Loki, Magneto, Medusa, Mr.
authors. First printing. PRINTED IN CHINA. ISSN 1932-6912 Fantastic, Odin, Red Skull, Silver Surfer, Spider-Man, Strange Tales, Sub-Mariner, Thing, Thor, Warriors Three, X-Men TM &
©Marvel Characters, Inc.

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Opening Shot
Jack Kirby: Yesterday,
To kick off the Jack Kirby Museum’s Pop-
Up exhibit (November 11-19, 2015) in Jack’s old
neighborhood on the Lower East Side of New
York, I put together a video “scrapbook” of my
recollections of the man, his work, and his
influence on my life and career. I presented it
during the Pop-Up’s opening weekend release
party for TJKC #66, and the whole whirlwind
weekend experience was a blast for me.

From the event itself, to walking around Jack’s childhood stomping

grounds with Rand Hoppe and Tom Kraft (including finding the building
Jack was born in), you could feel Kirby everywhere. And the feedback I

I
received on my presentation was so positive, that rather than let all the
hard work and research languish, for this “up close and personal” issue, I
proudly present an expanded print version here. I hope you enjoy this trip
down my personal Kirby memory lane.

was born in 1962, so

my exposure to Kirby
came later than many of
you. But my one encounter
with him, literally changed
the course of my life.
By producing The
Jack Kirby
Collector for
over 20 years, I’ve
accumulated a wide
array of photos and art.
Here is Jack being mobbed at an
early 1970s San Diego Comic-Con,
mingling with fans, and talking
with Golden Age great Don Rico.

4
Today, & TwoMorrows by editor
John Morrow

A few of my other
favorites are here.
What lucky person
owns that giant
Captain Victory illo
today?
Frank Miller was a big
supporter of Jack during his Original Art battle
with Marvel. Here they are at Jack’s 70th birthday party.
Don’t you wish you were there when Jack met
Frank Zappa?
And I was delighted to get to know Jack’s wife
Roz Kirby. No one took better care of him.

Looking back now, it seems inevitable I’d

end up producing a publication about him.
I’m amazed how my life led up to it. And
to think it all started with...

5
 ...a grasshopper?!

Okay, a GIANT grasshopper, named Kliklak.

In 1973, I was in my hometown of Montgomery,
Alabama, trading comics with my best friend
MATT. Somehow a copy of Kamandi #12 ended
up in my stack.
I didn’t know who the artist was, and I
immediately hated the ugly square knees and
fingers, and lack of super-heroes. But by
the last page, while I wasn’t yet a Kamandi
fan, I was impressed with this Kirby guy,
who’d made me enjoy a comic I was sure I
would hate. (Now, if he would only draw
some super-heroes...)

One night in early 1974, my Aunt gave me a stack of comic books

her boyfriend no longer wanted. On top was New Gods #6. The
title sounded sacrilegious, and I was a little afraid to open it.
But “The Glory Boat” BLEW... MY... MIND! I read it repeatedly,
but still wasn’t satisfied. I had to have more! Issue #9
was also there, and I devoured it.

I cut out the Kirby

figures and made my
own story scenes.
And I became
obsessed with finding
out what this
“Fourth World” thing
was. (My first page
of original art was
from New Gods #9,
with one of my
favorite Kirby poses
on it.)

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I started searching for information on Jack,
and the Overstreet Price Guide helped me see
how far-reaching his career was. I subscribed
to the Buyer’s Guide, and saw ads for Kirby
comics for sale. It was also a great place to
read about people who met Jack at the San
Diego Comic-Con. But I was never able to
convince my parents to take me there so I could
meet him myself.
I learned that Jack was regularly hosting
fans in his California living room, in meet-ups
coordinated by Comic-Con co-founder Shel Dorf.

Here’s Shel in A 1973 photo with Jack.

Do yOu recognize that kid in the chair above?

7
That’s Barry Alfonzo, the visual inspiration for
Witchboy from The Demon.
Here he is in 1973, with Carmine Infantino and Jack.

Let’s look back to the 1975 San Diego Con, where

Jack was holding a chalk talk. Watch how he
progresses from the bare bones of a figure with
no real guidelines, to a finished piece, all in marker.

These aren’t fully rendered drawings, as Jack did his best work alone in
his studio, where he could focus on whatever magic went on in his head.

8
 Meanwhile, in
Summer 1975, I was
stuck at my
Grandfather’s
house in Florida,
bored out of my
mind. Rummaging
through a basket
of old magazines,
I found a copy of
Kamandi #29. To
this day, I have
no idea how it
got there, but
this issue sold me
on Kamandi, and I made it a
regular purchase. Ironically,
the first new issue I found was
#34, with a Joe Kubert cover,
near the end of Jack’s run.

Please pardon the frontal

nudity. In 1976, I bought the
Steranko History of
Comics and saw this amazing
Kirby pencil piece in it. So on
that very hot Labor Day
Weekend, I convinced my dad
to let me paint a swipe of
Captain America on my bed-
room door while I stayed up
all night watching the
Jerry Lewis Telethon.

(Around that time, I came

down with Chicken Pox, and
was stuck home alone. But
I had recently ordered
most of Kirby’s Fourth
World back issues, and
they arrived that week.
Those books were just the
thing to make me forget my
itching—and to fantasize Then, in 1977, it finally happened!
about getting a far worse Montgomery, Alabama hosted Montcon
illness, so Jack would ’77, my first comics convention! And
hear about it and visit, to who was the special guest? You
draw a mural of all his guessed it: the one, the only...
Fourth World characters
on my bedroom wall. Sadly,
it never happened.)
9
 ...C.C. Beck!
Okay, he wasn’t Jack Kirby, but as co-creator of
Captain Marvel, he was an important figure in
comics history. C.C. even did a great sketch of
the Big Red Cheese for me.

I was selling super-hero swipe drawings, set up next to C.C’s table. A

local newspaper photographer was there, and C.C. suggested including me in
the shot, and using my booth as a backdrop. This photo was on the front page
of our Sunday newspaper, which Capped off a pretty great first convention.
(See if you can spot my Kirby swipes of OMAC and MISTER Miracle. No tracing
here; I did everything freehand. And Notice I also had on a t-shirt sporting
Kirby’s cover image from Captain America #193.)

At The Con, I picked up a copy of

Kirby Unleashed, and these two
B& W Kirby posters a dealer was
selling for 50¢ each.

10
 This Kirby Art is from The
1978 book Sorcerers,
which taught me more
about Jack. And around
this time, I discovered Jack
had done a series of war
stories in The Losers.

I continued to pick-up oddball

Kirby items when I ran across
them, like A People tabloid
that printed a flopped version
of this great Kirby Cap piece.
(I Guess they flopped it to
keep from showing a swastika
prominently in their mag.)

In 1978, the Montgomery Museum of Art

was inexplicably included in a traveling
exhibit of comic book and strip art, and I
got to see my first Kirby original art page
(“Forever People” from Kirby Unleashed).
It left me so inspired, I went home and
decided, if Jack wasn’t going to finish his
Fourth World saga, I’d do it for him!

I got a cover
and two
pages into it
before I
gave up,
gaining a new
appreciation
for what a
hard worker
Kirby was.

11
 In Summer 1978, I attended my first
major comics convention, the Atlanta
Fantasy Fair, and picked up the Kirby
Masterworks Portfolio from Jim
Steranko’s Supergraphics table.

I met Stan Lee, and

Jack’s new Silver
Surfer Graphic Novel
pages were on display.
But I overheard some
Marvel staffers make
disparaging comments
about how Jack had
“lost it” and couldn’t
produce decent work
anymore. I was
stunned.

(I didn’t know it at the time, but Marvel

even chose to omit Jack’s amazing cover
illo, in favor of an Earl Norem painting.
I would’ve gone with the Kirby version.)
It was my first taste of anti-Kirby sentiment.

12
( Does this look to you like Jack had “lost it”?)

13
 Jack didn’t let it get him down. He was still attending the San Diego
Con, surrounded by devoted friends and fans. This mid-1970s photo shows
Jack with Mark Evanier, and Marv Wolfman peering over his head.

He could Still Chalk Talk with the best of them, but it was
becoming apparent there wasn’t a place for him in comics anymore.
So he found work as an animation storyboard artist and concept
designer on shows like Thundarr the Barbarian and other Ruby-
Spears projects.

He Also kept a toe in comics

with Captain Victory, which
launched the Direct Market
for comics distribution.

Here’s close friend and

Captain Victory inker
Mike Thibodeaux in the
early 1980s, with Jack
and Roz in Jack’s studio.

And here’s Steve

Robertson, who helped
Mike with inking by filling
in solid black areas and
cleaning up pages.

14
Good friends and fans were everywhere.
Jack and Roz even traveled cross-country to
attend the small 1985 Acme Comics
Convention in Greensboro, North Carolina,
at the request of friend Jim Amash.

They’re shown above with Jim and Julie Schwartz,

who also made the trip out. (Sadly, I didn’t move to NC until
the following year, so just missed meeting him.)

In 1987, friends threw

Jack a surprise 70th
birthday partY during
that year’s San Diego Con.

Back home in California, Dr. Mark Miller

was one of many friends welcomed into the
Kirby household throughout the 1980s.

Jack always found time to clown around, like when

he let loose with fans at a 1990 CFA-APA party.

15
After a tumultuous battle with Marvel
Comics, he finally got back a small
portion of the original art he drew for
the company...

...And spent his twilight years

doing commissioned art for fans,
and enjoying a slower pace.

Things were anything but slow

for me back East. In the 1980s,
I graduated Auburn University
with a Fine Arts degree after
developing the skills I’d learned
by swiping Kirby images. My wife
Pam and I married in 1987, just
after graduation & having moved
to Raleigh, North Carolina to
work for different ad agencies.
We found enough freelance
work to start our own company,
TwoMorrows Advertising,
in 1991.

By then, Jack was out of the

comics field, and taking his
victory lap promoting his
biography The Art of Jack
Kirby, but there wasn’t much
left in comics to hold my
interest. So I sold most of my
comics to help fund the down-
payment on our first home, only
keeping my Kirby Fourth World
books, and a handful of others.

Still, the desire to meet Jack Kirby never died,

and in Summer 1991, we traveled to the San Diego
Comic-Con, where I finally met my idol.

16
 I followed it up a few weeks later with a
gushing fan letter, and soon after, I received A
note that simply said, “John, Thank you, Jack
Kirby.” I felt a page of my life was complete.
Like Kirby, I was done with comics.
Or so I thought.

Jack and Roz renewed their wedding

vows in 1992 for their 50th anniversary.
Health issues were plaguing Jack by this
point, but he didn’t let it keep him from
enjoying that special day.

Then came the day that changed everything...

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 My old comics buddy who’d traded me that Kamandi #12, read
February 7, 1994 of Jack’s passing and faxed me the USA TODAY clipping. I was
devastated, but glad that I’d had the chance to meet him and
express my appreciation.
I tracked down a copy of
ComicS Buyer’s Guide and
read industry tributes to him.
That moved me to re-read my
remaining Kirby comics over
the Spring, and inspired me to
start a Jack Kirby fanzine. I
figured, “Hey, if it lasts a
half-dozen issues, it’ll be fun,
and a way to share my appre-
ciation of Kirby with other
fans. Surely he still has a
few out there...”

So I designed a
modest 16-page
newsletter, and
sent it off to
Roz Kirby for
approval. I hand-
xeroxed 125
copies, and on
September 5, 1994,
mailed them to
people who’d
written letters
into CBG when
Jack passed. Then
I waited to see if
it would get any
response.

To say I was overwhelmed would be a cosmic understatement.

Mail poured in: first a few letters, then dozens each month,
from people who’d discovered TJKC through word of mouth,
and wanted to share an anecdote, or art from their collections.

By issue #6, I tried a double-

size issue, spotlighting the
Fourth World. With so many
pages, xeroxing was no
longer feasible, so I gambled
on having them printed.
We also produced a color
poster for the growing
number of retailers who
were ordering TJKC directly
from us.
By issue #8, we had color
covers and international
distribution to comics shops.

18
 As Summer 1995 approached, with
printing bills to pay, we set off to
promote the mag. We stuffed as
many copies of TJKC into our
suitcases as possible to save on
shipping. I hand-colored giant B&W
xeroxes of my favorite Orion and
Captain America drawings. Along with
a makeshift art display, we headed
off to Heroes Con in North
Carolina, the Dallas Fantasy Fair,
and the San Diego Comic-Con.

At every event, we were treated like royalty, as

fans flocked to our booth, snatched up every
copy we brought, and talked Kirby. The Sci-Fi
Channel even used our booth as a backdrop for
a feature they were filming at Comic-Con.

We added hundreds of signatures to Dr. Mark Miller’s

petition to get Kirby credit at Marvel Comics.

But the highlight of our summer convention tour

was meeting Jack’s wife Roz in person at Comic-Con,
and visiting her at home.

19
 Energized by it all, I plugged along with the Kirby Collector,
making lots of new friends, and reuniting with old ones. Little by
little, my pet project grew into a fledgling publishing company,
with new publications inspired by Jack’s legacy.

TwoMorrows kept growing,

Even adding two Little Morrows to
the mix. Our Magazine line grew as
well, First with Comic Book
Artist, conceived by TJKC Associate
Editor Jon B. Cooke to be a
“Kirby Collector” for other
artists. It ended up winning
Sadly, on December 22, 1997, we lost several Eisner Awards for us.
Roz Kirby. She was laid to rest next to
her beloved Jack.

there were a few missteps

along the way. For subscribers,
I hand-xeroxed a unique mailing
envelope for each issue. When I
used Jack’s pencil drawing of
the Red Skull from Marvel
Premiere #30’s cover, I got
angry letters from readers,
who were worried their
mailman would think they were
neo-Nazis.
(Guess I should’ve remembered
the example of that 1970s
People tabloid.)

20
 We documented as much of Kirby’s creative Legacy as possible, by
updating the Kirby Checklist from Ray Wyman’s Art of Jack Kirby book.

And after finally tracking

down all of Jack’s
original New Gods concept
drawings, we released a
limited edition portfolio
of those plates called
DEITIES.

Kirby Unleashed had been a favorite

of mine, so TwoMorrows released a
remastered version, going back to the
original art for better reproduction.
Finally fans could see the gorgeous
cover art as Jack drew it.

I’m especially proud

of documenting
obscure artifacts
from Jack’s career,
such as
Superworld of
Everything.
(The best thing that
came out of it has to
be Galaxy Green,
the closest Jack
ever got to doing
underground comix.)

21
 Even more fun was discovering Jack’s two
unpublished magazines, True Divorce Cases and
Soul Love. True Divorce features some of
Jack’s sexiest work ever in comics.
(And Soul Love... well, it’s so bad, it’s good.)

I have a weakness for Kid Gangs, so tracking down two unpublished

Dingbats of Danger Street stories was a thrill. And Jack’s
unseen Prisoner story was another amazing discovery.

Few people saw Jack’s

autobiographical story
“Street Code” in the
obscure Argosy magazine.
We presented it to a much
larger audience in our book
Streetwise, which was
based around Jack’s story,
and won another Eisner
Award.

22
 Perhaps the least-known
Kirby project we brought to
light was Jack’s text novel
The Horde. Julie Schwartz
sent me a copy of the issue
of Galaxy magazine that
featured an excerpt from it,
and I was able to clue fans
into its existence.

The Kirby family has always

been appreciative of my
efforts to keep Jack’s
legacy alive. They’ve gifted
me with some interesting
bits of Kirby memorabilia
over the years.

But I was stunned when they gave me

the Kliklak page from the Valentine’s
Day sketchbook Jack drew for Roz in
the 1970s. Nothing could’ve been more
fitting, and it’s a cherished item I’ll
never part with.

When the family was selling some art several years ago, the only
piece I could afford was a page from Chamber of Darkness #4.
(I immediately called Roz and offered to send it
When it arrived, I noticed the bottom panel was a paste-up, and I back, since it was worth much more than I’d paid
carefully removed it to find unused Kirby pencil art underneath. for it. She said to keep it with her blessings.)

23
 It’s been an honor to
help the Jack Kirby
Museum get off the
ground. Early on, we
provided Rand Hoppe
space at our conven-
tion booths for
scanning art, and
have made financial
contributions to Help
keep it going.
(Don’t make Rand
sad; do your part to
support the museum.)

We’ve enjoyed friendships with some of

the nicest people in comics...

...And even corresponded with

a few of the more stand-offish ones.

We’ve gotten to know many of Jack and Roz’s

family members and closest friends...

...And gone to bat to help Jack get credit for his creations.

24
But there’s a long way to go with the Jack Kirby
Collector. We’re making new discoveries all the time...
...And old ones, dating
back to the Golden Age
of comics. the ever-loving glow of Jack.
I have to tell you, I loved
every short-lived minute of it.
Thankfully, we’ve never Jack stopped and gave me a
run out of loyal
contributors, fan and
few minutes of his time. Oh
pro, who want to be my God! A personal audience
a part of TJKC. with the King! I got to tell him
With a lot of help how much of an influence he
from our friends, has been on my career and
TwoMorrows will life. I got to thank him for all
keep on documenting
the years of comics material
Kirby’s legacy.
that he produced. I got to tell
him how much I appreciated
him. After I had my say, he
told me a quick story about
his run on the Fantastic Four.
He then informed me that he
had to get to the booth he
I Met Jack Kirby....
...BUT I DID NOT SHOOT THE
had been heading for. I ended
up holding up the line that was
DEPUTY waiting for him. (Unintentionally,
by Richard A. Scott really!)
I thanked him for his time, as
Yes, I am sure you are thinking well as telling him what and how
“yet another remembrance of the much it meant to me. (A lot!)
King”! Well, if you had experi- Before he went along his way, he
enced the rush of actually meet- turned and asked me: “Would you
ing this man you would under- like one of my cards?” Of course I
And I never forget that no matter what other
stand. Even the most jaded of us quickly said yes! I always wanted
books we publish, or where it takes us... to have his signature. Now I had
would get weak in the knees or
have our brains turn to pools of one given directly to me from his
jelly. (I myself have met 500+ very hand! He then went on his
professionals. Meeting Jack has way leaving me in his wake,
been the highlight.) That is the slightly dazed. That is when the
...It sort of response that Mr. Kirby bubble that had contained my
all would invoke simply by being timeless moment dissipated.
Reality then started to creep
comes sighted in a crowd. Now just
back into my world. Curiously
back imagine being in his presence
and being able to ask most any- there was still no one around me
to thing of him. Both the heart and in the immediate vicinity. I almost
this mind race when put to this task! had to question as to whether or
not the past few minutes had
guy. I met Jack once at the San
happened.
Diego Comic Con in—please bear
with me, I have a Swiss cheese Jack was everything everyone
memory. It was 1992 or 1994. I who had previously met him had
ran across him while he was on said about him. He was a quiet
his way to another booth to see gentleman who was incredibly
his legion of fans. Curiously, he giving of his time. If anyone
was by himself. He had a stack of was truly deserving of the title
cards with black-&-white art of “legend,” it was Jack. I will never
Special thanks go out to
his on them. That art was ren- forget the kindness that he and
everyone who provided later Roz (but, that’s another
photos over the years, dered into limited edition bronze
including Steve Robertson, statues. The cards had his auto- story) bestowed upon me that
Jim Amash, Mark Miller, graph on them. (See above art.) day. There is a reason why
Shel Dorf, Michael One was his signature and the Jack will always be fondly
Zuccaro, Mark Blackney, remembered. I
Dennis Johnson, James other was a copy of his signature
on the art. like to consider
Van Hise, Jerry Boyd,
Rand Hoppe, Joe Frank, I saw and stopped Jack myself one of
and the Kirby Family. (yes, that was rather bold of me those reasons. ★
indeed). Right then and there time
stopped for me. I was basking in
25
 From ...To
Her... HerE?!

Incidental
Iconography
An ongoing analysis of Kirby’s visual shorthand,
and how he inadvertently used it to develop his characters,
by Sean Kleefeld

ne of the primary ideas behind the Incidental Iconography for both versions of Agatha Harkness.

O column is to examine how Jack designed his characters using

some key elements. By watching how Jack altered his depiction
of a character over time, we can get a sense of what he felt were the
Compare, if you will, Jack’s original design with the suffragette
outfit that Glynis Johns wears as Winifred Banks in the movie
[below]. Jack lines the sleeves and neck with fur instead of gauze, but
essential visual ingredients for them. So why the coat, gloves, and hat are remarkably similar in
devote a column to Agatha Harkness, one of appearance. He’s not using any of Andrews’ costumes,
the last characters Jack developed from his but he’s still able to play off the film’s Edwardian
long run on the Fantastic Four and a character veneer to contrast against the ultra-modern, high-
he drew for only a single issue? Despite only tech approach he generally took with the Fantastic
one appearance of her by Jack, there’s Four themselves. Whether Jack deliberately wanted to
something to delve into here. play off the movie without duplicating Andrews’
We know that the character design that costumes, or he simply misremembered who was
was published was not Jack’s original take on wearing what, is a matter of conjecture.
the character. We have some unused panels Regarding the “too good” line, that is attributable
from that issue depicting a very different look back to Roz: She was talking about withholding some
for Agatha [below]. She has dark hair, a large full-page splashes Jack had done for Thor at around
brimmed hat, and white gloves. Some have the same time. They were later
claimed that she was patterned after Roz but, collected in the Kirby Unleashed
frankly, I don’t see it. There’s also been claims that the design was portfolio and, if you check out those images,
“too good” for Marvel in the last days of Jack’s tenure there; there’s a much greater sense of epicness than
considering how striking the published design ultimately was, I have what we see in his original (understated and
my doubts here as well. backgroundless) Agatha panels—which suggests
to me that the original Agatha design went
unused for some other reason.
My guess is that someone (Roz? Barbara?
Stan?) commented that having a younger nanny
character with magical powers bore too much
similarity to Mary
Poppins, still relatively
fresh in the minds of an
American media
audience. By aging
Agatha considerably, she becomes more of
a stereotypical witch character, akin to
Consider this: Jack created Agatha in 1969 (in Fantastic Four Bewitched’s “Endora,” Agnes Morehead [left],
#94) as a character to take care of Franklin Richards while his and perhaps more suited to the horror story
parents were out adventuring. Although she’s commonly referred to that Fantastic Four #94 wound up being.
as a “governess,” Stan Lee’s dialogue for the original issue only refers Curiously, Agatha’s new hairstyle still bears some similarity to what
to her as a “child-rearing specialist.” Another name, which isn’t used Johns wore in the film, although the visual similarities end there.
but I think is significant here, is “nanny.” This is, as I noted, mostly speculation. I haven’t been able to
Arguably, the English language’s most famous find evidence to support any claims to
nanny is Mary Poppins, thanks in large part to Agatha’s visual origins although, as Jack
the 1964 Disney movie starring Julie Andrews in had just moved to California earlier that
the title role [left]. The movie was immensely year and was already talking to Carmine
popular and, with his daughter Barbara 12 years Infantino about working for DC, I do think
old at the time, I can’t imagine Jack not seeing it. it’s safe to say that Jack didn’t spend a
Although it’s just speculation on my part, I whole lot of time thinking about Agatha’s
think Jack used Mary Poppins as his inspiration iconography. ★
26
 In 1989, having interviewed Joe Simon on the imminent release of Marvel’s Fighting American
hardcover compilation, I followed up by talking to Jack Kirby. Selected quotes from these inter-
views appeared in several Comics Scene articles on Fighting American and Captain America.
While the full Simon interview later ran in Comic Book Marketplace, the complete Kirby
transcript has never before seen print. Although this exchange is limited to Kirby’s patriotic heroes,
he does reflect on his career in general. More importantly, it accurately reflects the indomitable
spirit of Jack Kirby in the last years of his life.

Innerview
Jack Kirby Remembers
Interviewed by Will Murry in 1989 • Thanks to Brian K. Morris for the meticulous transcription.

WILL MURRAY: When I was a kid back in the

1960s reading Marvel Comics, I came across a
coverless issue of Fighting American #3. I was
fascinated by it. It was unlike the Marvel Comics,
which I did enjoy and still do. There was an
element of fun that was only in the earlier
Marvel Comics.
JACK KIRBY: The atmosphere at that time was
very bleak for everybody, really, because it was
right after the war and it was the early 1950s and
we were just turning our attention to look for
another enemy.
MURRAY: This was the McCarthy era and
America was kind of in a panic. And I wondered
why in an atmosphere where everybody was
looking for Reds under the beds, as it were, you
decided to play the Commies as fun, inept villains.
KIRBY: Because I didn’t believe they were that
serious a challenge—although the Communists,
they had one stage and that was the streets. And
I was brought up as a city boy and I’d seen
Communist parades, and I’d seen union strikes,
and all sorts of parades, and that’s what it looked
like to me. And I think the average American
never took them seriously and they never got a
foothold here, not in a serious way.
MURRAY: This is true. History’s proven you
right. In the past year or so, the Communists
have proven pretty ineffective.
KIRBY: Sure, Americans never deviate from their
own history.
MURRAY: Take me back to 1953, ’54 when you
and Joe Simon first sat down and came up with
the Fighting American idea. How did the trend,
the conversation go? Do you recall?
KIRBY: Oh, the conversation was—well, the gist
of it was, what was current? And that’s how we
always worked. Captain America was a current
product of its time and at that time, Hitler was in
the news and the Nazis were in the news, Europe
was being swallowed up, one country after
another, and when were we getting into war?
There was a state of hysteria. This was a similar
frame except it never got that serious. But there
Fighting American villains, from the mid-1970s Valentine’s Day sketchbook Jack drew for wife Roz. was a state of hysteria about Communism and it

27
(above) This panel
from page 7 of
Fighting American #1
was originally intend-
ed to be the cover. At
center is Joe Simon’s
coloring of the original
art, and at right is his was fostered by our own leaders.
more recent solo
recreation of the So we’d read about it in the papers
scene. every day and yet, we—I mean,
(below) As editor of just speaking for myself, [laughs]
SICK magazine, Joe I’d had enough of that. I had
did a spoof of his own enough of that stuff and I think
character for the cover everybody else did, and it just
if issue #42 (Feb.
1966, at the height of never got rooted in the people to
TV “Batmania”)—but have caused any bad accidents
only knowledgeable or action or anything like that.
comics fans could get
the full joke. MURRAY: But in terms of sitting
down with Joe Simon and kick-
(next page) Another ing off the idea, let’s do—I guess
Simon recreation, for you’d have to call it a recreation.
his book The Comic KIRBY: When does it see our
Book Makers. Note attitude reflected in the strip?
how he changed Cap
and Bucky to Fighting MURRAY: Right. But in terms of
American and actually creating the physical
Speedboy, but gave FA name? How did you kick it around, basically? You know,
a modified Cap shield. character—you didn’t have to go with a patriotic char- the process.
acter, necessarily, to fight Communism. You could have KIRBY: Well, we’d kick it around. We did it jointly, you
gone with a standard super-hero. know. And we kicked it around and we had to have the
KIRBY: But the patriotic character word “American” in it, you know. And “Fighting
was us, see? American” seemed like a perfect name to remember,
MURRAY: In what sense? and it was the kind of a name that had some punch in
KIRBY: I mean Fighting American, it, and it worked. And of course, Speedboy. Both of us
Speedboy, was always us, just as contributed to all the characters, see? And we just had a
Captain America was always us. lot of fun with it. You know, the character would be
And it was us, looking out at what kind of a nebulous—sometimes, it would begin with a
was taking place and therefore, we word and it would just gather nebulous—.
always get involved with the action. MURRAY: That’s what I was getting at. Do you remember
And the more we did in the case of how it kicked off?
Fighting American, the sillier it became. KIRBY: No. You know, when two guys are talking, say,
So we had a lot of fun with it. “Hey, how about doing this?” or “How about doing
MURRAY: But I mean in terms of that?”—see? And we’d kick it around and find out if it
the—oh, I suppose the mechanics was funny enough or strong enough to sell the issue—I
of it. Who first said, “Hey, let’s do a mean the magazine issue.
new kind of Captain America,” and MURRAY: Yeah, yeah. Now who decided it would be a
who said, “Let’s change, let’s do satirical strip? That seems not to have been a big part of
this”? Who came up with the name? the first issue. But with the second issue, it was the
How did you come up with the whole theme.
28
KIRBY: Well, that was my idea, but Joe agreed, finally. MURRAY: Oh, that brings me to an interesting question, that if you
published it, then you cancelled it. And why would you cancel such a
MURRAY: And what made you decide? Was it doing too many super-
wonderful strip?
heroes over too long a period? “Hey, let’s play this one for laughs,”
KIRBY: Well, then, the times were bad for all magazines and one
or, “Let’s use this for a—”.
magazine was going out of business after another.
KIRBY: No, I’ll tell you, I think both of us had a bellyful of serious
heroes at the time, and the war itself had spent itself inside us and MURRAY: So it wasn’t necessarily Fighting American itself, it was the
inside everybody else. So we decided to do something different and line.
the field itself demanded it. The field itself demanded a satirical KIRBY: No, it wasn’t Fighting American itself, it was just flagging capital,
strip, something to laugh at and still be done very well. You know, see? And everything was in flux. It was fluctuating and going up and
it’s not easy to do satire. So we put our best foot forward and did the down, and we just couldn’t exist in that kind of an atmosphere. Now
best we could. that went for the larger publishers too, you know. Everybody was
having trouble, so Fighting American wasn’t—our coffers weren’t
MURRAY: Did you ink yourself on these pages, or is that Simon on
overflowing. [laughs] We did the best we could.
the Fighting American books?
KIRBY: Oh, that would be Joe Simon. MURRAY: Do you have any special memories of doing that run of
books? Any stories that stick out in your mind as your favorite?
MURRAY: Okay, and did you collaborate on the writing or did you
KIRBY: Well, there’s “Super-Khakalovich” and “Super-Khakalovich” to
trade off on the writing?
me—well, he was a stereotype, of course, and the Russians, to me,
KIRBY: No, circumstances would dictate that.
were always guys who—I mean the average Russian, to me, was a guy
MURRAY: Yeah, okay. So it was a total collaboration in the sense that who didn’t really possess much. In fact, the reason he fought Fighting
it was the two of you just—. American was he loved Fighting American’s underwear. [Will laughs]
KIRBY: Yeah, because we were both responsible for the strip and He loved good clothes and of course, he couldn’t get it in Russia, and
that’s where the collaboration lies. even his costume was secondhand, [Will laughs] so he felt humiliated.
And it’s not that he disliked Fighting American, he just wanted his
MURRAY: When you first sat down and you had your first sketches
uniform, [Will laughs] because it was made of better goods.
of Fighting American, and your first idea of what it was going to be,
and the format of the books—did you have to sit down with Joe and MURRAY: When Fighting American was revived for that one issue in
say, “All right, we’ve got to do things to make it not too close to the ’60s for Harvey, how did that come about? There were a couple
Captain America,” or was that the idea? or three new stories in it that hadn’t appeared in the original run.
KIRBY: No. We wanted it to be Captain America. Were those inventory stories left over from the original 1950s?
KIRBY: Well, that’s going far back, but I think that’s so.
MURRAY: A-ha!
KIRBY: Yeah, we wanted it to be Captain America, and Speedboy, we MURRAY: You didn’t sit down in 1966 and do two or three new
wanted him to be Bucky. And of course, Captain America was like Fighting American stories for the new revival.
our own trademark. KIRBY: No, Al Harvey was a friend of ours, you know, and we did the
best we could with Al and he tried to help us.
MURRAY: Right, but you didn’t own him at that time.
KIRBY: Oh, well, no, we didn’t. Ours were lowly creatures [Will MURRAY: Why did that last only in one issue, the Harvey revival?
chuckles] so everything was owned by the publishers. KIRBY: Well, it’s because the publishers could easily see the hand-
writing on the wall and the handwriting was very, very shaky at the
MURRAY: So this is the way to have your Captain America and eat it
time.
too, so to speak.
KIRBY: Oh, but Fighting American was owned by Joe and myself. MURRAY: This is in, what, ’66, ’67?
MURRAY: Yeah, right.
KIRBY: But yeah, this was our first ven-
ture as publishers too.
MURRAY: Oh, really? You were the
publishers of this, of Headline Comics?
KIRBY: Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah, we pub-
lished that.
MURRAY: Oh, I didn’t know that.
KIRBY: Oh, yes.
MURRAY: Oh, okay. So that was a real
big step for you guys.
KIRBY: Oh, yes. Just one second please.
[speaks to Roz Kirby off-phone] Yes, so
we called our publishing house
Mainline Comics. [Editor’s Note: Jack
got a little confused here, as Fighting
American was packaged by S&K, but
published by Prize, an imprint of
Crestwood Publications. Joe and Jack did
self-publish other books as Mainline
around this time.]

29
KIRBY: About ’66. And it was only the
comic books with a lot of capital behind
that could survive. And so, of course, that
would be DC and Marvel and Al Harvey
himself.
MURRAY: If this Marvel Masterworks
comes about in the sense of being very
successful, would you consider reviving
the character? Does he still interest you?
KIRBY: Well, he would be a lot of fun, but
I, myself, I’m retired right now.
MURRAY: Really? I thought you still
worked for Ruby-Spears. Weren’t you in
the animation—?
KIRBY: Oh, I’m sorry. I told you we had
Mainline Publications, but it was really
Headline Publications.
MURRAY: Right. Yeah, that’s what my copy says, yeah. But you say
you’re retired. The last I heard, you were still doing work for Ruby-
Spears. Are you retired from that too?
KIRBY: No, no, I wasn’t retired from that, but Ruby-Spears was a steady
operation, see, and it was a steady routine. I’d bring in my conceptions
and I’d go home, and I’d get paid, and it was a routine as simple as
that. So naturally, I didn’t knock it and I felt it was good for me.
MURRAY: Well, no, my question was are you completely retired in
the sense of not doing any work at all?
KIRBY: Yes, I am. It’s been a long time. It’s been fifty years.
Cover of the 1966 Harvey one-shot of Fighting American.
MURRAY: [laughs] I know. I’ve been reading your work for about
thirty of them. I started buying Marvel Comics in what, ’61, ’62.
KIRBY: Oh, sure. Well, I appreciate that very much.

30
 (previous page, bottom and here)
Ruby-Spears pitched a Thor cartoon
series in the 1980s, and since
Jack was on the payroll, who better
to do the presentation art? Inks by
Alfredo Alcala.

MURRAY: Oh, you know, you’re my favorite comic artist. I’m real happy MURRAY: Well, that’s what I was going to get to. Are you happy being
to be able to talk to you, especially about Fighting American, which is retired? But you just answered my question; yes, you’re happy being
another favorite book of mine, and I’m real happy that the collection’s retired, but you’re not really retired because you’re still working.
coming out. Tell me, how did that happen? How did it come that KIRBY: Well, I’m not working in the sense, yes. And I’ve got these big
Marvel came to you guys and said, “Let’s do Fighting American”? The lithographs which I did and this company, Art-Med, is making statues
current reprint, how did that happen? How did that come about? of them, statues of the sculptured figures, and they’re sculpting these
KIRBY: Oh, well, my wife takes care of—wait just one moment, figures straight from the illustrations.
please. [talks to Roz off-phone] Yeah, it was Joe Simon. I was just trying
MURRAY: I think I’ve seen the ads for them. They look quite—
to get it accurate. Joe came to me and Marvel had come to Joe. So I
KIRBY: Oh, they’re very good, believe me, and they’ve done well. You
agreed with Joe, and we did it.
know, I went a little Biblical on those. I got one called Jacob and the
MURRAY: Ah, so it wasn’t the question of you guys going to Marvel Angel, which seems to attract everybody. So I’m kind of taking a new
and saying, “Would you like to reprint it?” They came to you. tack, which I’ve always done. Like Fighting American, and so forth, a
KIRBY: Oh, yes, yes. departure.
MURRAY: Ah, that’s interesting. It’s very unusual for Marvel to print MURRAY: Here’s a question: when you came back to Captain
something that isn’t their character, their property. America in the 1960s, and then again in the 1970s—of course Stan
KIRBY: Oh, no. It was profitable and that counts in any published Lee had a lot to do with the 1960s Captain America, although you
account. did the 1970s—you kept the character pretty serious. Do you see,
fundamentally, as Captain America and Fighting American, two
MURRAY: [laughs] Yeah, of course. So you’re completely retired from
definitely different characters or definitely different tones?
comics, so even if this book went through the roof, you wouldn’t
KIRBY: Yes, they are, of course. Captain America is a deadly serious
pick up the pen and do it again, huh?
character, just as the average American is deadly serious about his
KIRBY: No, I wouldn’t, no. You know, I’ve done every type of comic
patriotism, and an American would never make light of his own
from satirical to serious, and I’ve done romance and you name the
patriotism because it’s something that’s part of his life there. You
kind of subject, and I’ve had a hand in it. [laughs]
know, the Constitution and all the rest of it. And so our patriotism
MURRAY: Yeah, this is true. You don’t get much bigger than Jack combines all of that. It combines our early training as Americans and
Kirby in the comic book field. it’s a nationalistic trait, but every country has it.
KIRBY: No, it’s not only that. I’m busy writing a novel.
MURRAY: But yet Fighting American, as humorous as he is, he’s also
MURRAY: Oh, really? Can you tell me a little bit about that? Is it serious about his patriotism.
something comics fans would be interested in? KIRBY: Well, of course he is. And Fighting American is a satire on a
KIRBY: Well, it’s very timely and they’re doing a biography on me lot of old conditions.
too, and I’m helping out with that, certainly. And that kind of thing
MURRAY: But he’s more devil-may-care, I guess, in a sense than
occupies my time and it’s also a lot of fun.
Captain America.
31
KIRBY: He’s almost slapstick, really. And Fighting American is a kind you picked up the reins on Captain America without Stan Lee in the
of a burlesque on the patriotic theme. early ’70s, you didn’t have him rewriting your stuff, you didn’t have
him putting in the dialogue, you didn’t have him telling you what to do
MURRAY: You know, it’s only a few years after Fighting American
or how to do it in the way when you were working directly with him.
folded, and before you revived Captain America, that you, again,
KIRBY: Well, that’s what you were reading and that’s why I suggested
had another patriotic hero, the Shield for the Archie group. Can you
that you talk to Stan, because you were reading Stan. And I can’t
tell me about that and why you did that character?
comment on that kind of writing style.
KIRBY: Well, it’s the kind of character I did best and I didn’t deviate
from that because I knew I would do it well. I knew that the magazine MURRAY: Well, what I’m really getting at is do you see his version—
would sell and it did, and it came out just fine. the version you did with him is a little less true than your version
because you’re the creator of the character, you’re the co-creator of
MURRAY: The Shield, what was the title of that book? The Double
the character.
Life of Private Strong. And he was sort of in the middle. He was sort
KIRBY: Yes, yes.
of like a little less serious than Captain America and a little more
serious than Fighting American. Was he essentially another attempt MURRAY: You have a point of view that you kicked off in the ’40s
to reinvent Captain America?
KIRBY: Well, he was also a product of the times
and the times were like that. And I think we were
losing—actually, when I was reflecting there, we
were losing all that combativeness that was inside
us, all that residue from the war. And it reflected in
everything we did and it reflected itself in comics as
well as other subjects and other ways of life. So we
were in that stage. It’s hard to describe a series like
that because it was after a terrifying era which had
spent itself and you’ll find a variation of feelings and
a variation of visible happenings around you that
reflect that change. You know, all changes are grad-
ual, and during that gradual period, the changes
kind of combine with each other and you’re looking
once again for some kind of stability, see? It’s a
question of looking for stability. And of course, we
have all that and we’re stronger today and, well, we
know where we’re going, we know what to do, and
we have new generations to launch. And we certainly
discovered that all that is history and we watched the
hijinks of the new generation and its entertainment.
MURRAY: When you did the Captain America
revival with Lee in the 1960s, there was a certain
tone that I guess Lee brought to it more than you
did. And when you went back to that character in
the 1970s, you sort of went back to the old free-
wheeling Jack Kirby style where, essentially, it was
all action and there wasn’t a lot of introspection, the
kind of thing that Lee did a lot of, and maybe over-
did to some degree. Do you see in your head,
maybe, that Stan Lee/Jack Kirby Captain America,
the ’60s version, as being a little less true to that
character than the ’40s and even ’70s versions that
you did?
KIRBY: Yes, I do.
MURRAY: You do? Tell me about that.
KIRBY: Well, I don’t know how much Stan Lee’s
influence was there, but—.
MURRAY: Well, he tended to make Captain
America like Hamlet, in a lot of respects. And you
didn’t do that in the ’40s and you sure didn’t do
that in the ’70s. You had a different take on the
character. You had a very specific point of view that
did not have Captain America sitting around, saying,
“Oh, woe is me.”
KIRBY: Well, that’s a question you’ll have to ask
Stan, see? I can’t answer for another guy’s—.
MURRAY: No, but I mean in terms of your—when Last summer, Marvel released King Size Kirby, a slipcased hardcover reprinting Jack’s work.

32
and you came back to in the ’70s —of course updated for the ’70s— wrote the entire plot in on the side and Stan Lee would put in his
and I just wanted you to talk about the differences between, say, the own dialogue.
three Captain Americas: the ’40s, the ’60s, the ’70s.
MURRAY: Well, let me rephrase the question in a much more simple
KIRBY: Well, I can only say that I did the best I could with the illus-
way; if Stan Lee sees Captain America as Hamlet—and let’s just say
trations and I turned them in that way. And the illustrations always
for the sake of argument that he does—how do you see Captain
reflected my own techniques, my own drawing techniques, and my
America in a word or two? [mutual chuckling] You see what I’m saying?
own feelings. But as for the Stan Lee dialogue, it’s something that
[Jack laughs] If he sees it as Hamlet, what do you see him as?
you will have to interview him about.
KIRBY: Well, I see Captain America as you and me, okay? And I
MURRAY: Okay, well, I’m just asking for your opinion of it. never saw him any differently. And I could never see Captain
KIRBY: Yeah, I had nothing to do with the blurbs. America as a ham actor. I saw Captain America as a real person. I
saw him as a guy under stress. I saw him as a guy in exuberant
MURRAY: Yeah, I know that. But you read the comics after they were
moods, and I saw you and me through all kinds of situations. And I
printed, I assume. You knew what was going on.
happen to love the average guy and if you’ve read any of my Captain
KIRBY: Well, what I did was write the plot, see? I wrote the plot, I
Americas, you’ll find they’re all reflected in the strip. I can’t speak for
Stan, I don’t know what he was trying to do. If you
spoke to him, possibly, he could explain it.
MURRAY: Oh, you know, I’m not interested in his
point of view on the thing because I think I know
what it would be. I’m just interested in your point of
view in how you see Captain—.
KIRBY: Yeah, my point of view is you and me, all
right?
MURRAY: Yeah, okay. That’s it succinctly, okay. When
you brought back Captain America with Lee in The
Avengers, in the early ’60s, Bucky was killed off. Was
that your decision? Were you happy with it? Did
you think that was right for the era?
KIRBY: Yes. Because it was a drastic thing to do to a
teen that had been around for, what, fifteen years at
that time, maybe close to—it was a terrible thing to
do. It was a terrible thing to do when you had—it
illustrated that some kind of circumstance like that
could come about. And it’s something that definitely
is emotional and I personally felt the emotion myself.
MURRAY: Oh, I did too. Of course, I was eight years
old.
KIRBY: I thought the reader might. You know, I was
hoping the reader might.
MURRAY: I did and it was a very strong thing.
KIRBY: Because I wanted to do it as a gesture of reality,
you know. And that would give the strip itself a kind
of a cloak of reality.
MURRAY: Well, it certainly worked because it was a
very powerful thing to do for that time and it
worked very well. I remember suddenly that before
you brought back Captain America—the real
Captain America in the early ’60s—a few months
before, you brought his costume back in a “Human
Torch” strip where a villain played Captain America.
I guess that was kind of a test to revive the character.
This is what, ’63, ’64, as I recall. It was a “Human
Torch” strip in Strange Tales.
KIRBY: Yes, I’m trying to recall this.
MURRAY: Yeah, it was basically that the Human
Torch had a villain named the Acrobat and suddenly,
Captain America came out of nowhere and he was a
bad guy. And at the end, after fighting the Human
Torch, you unmasked him as the Acrobat. It wasn’t
the real Captain America, but at the end of the
story, you have the Human Torch reading an old
Weighing in at nearly 20 lbs. and over 800 pages, the above image serves as the cover. Captain America comic, saying, “Gee, I wonder

33
whatever happened to him.” And it was about a year later that Captain I was a kid from the street and when I went to war, I was in my early
America came back. I just wondered, was that a test, that you were twenties and when I came back, I was in my twenties. And I just did
trying to convince Lee to bring back Captain America? what I was supposed to do. I did what I’ve always done. If I got into a
KIRBY: It was a way of bringing him back and it wasn’t an ordinary street fight, I get into a street fight and I’d win or I’d lose. And if I
way of doing it. I tried not to do things in an ordinary way. And in went to war, if I had to go to war, in fact, I was always grateful that I
fact, I think the most successful formula is to do something extraor- was drafted. Because none of my friends were around. Joe Simon
dinary, but have it make sense, see? was in the Coast Guard and everybody else was gone. They were in
the service and the streets were kind of empty at night and when I
MURRAY: Well, you sort of did that with Sub-Mariner in an early
dated my wife, we used to walk around and we’d meet nobody. And
Fantastic Four.
KIRBY: In fact, killing
off Bucky was a kind
of editorial on
missiles themselves,
you know, see?
MURRAY: Ah, okay.
That didn’t register
on me until just now.
KIRBY: It was a
comment on the
terrifying aspect of
the missile program.
Because that could be
your boy, it could be
your girl. It’s not easy
to see a thing like
that happen, a bomb
go off or a missile go
off, and see the real
thing happen. It was
an emotional time of
anger and Bucky died
in a very emotional
kind of way.
MURRAY: Yeah,
yeah. You’re a guy
who served in World
War Two and saw
combat, pretty
serious combat from
what I understand.
KIRBY: Yes.
MURRAY: Before you
went off to war, you
were writing—you
were drawing comics
in which there was a
lot of fighting and
action. And when
you came back even-
tually, you drew a lot
of comics, a lot of
fighting and action,
and I wonder if your
war experiences
changed or soured
or altered your per-
ception of fighting.
Did you see it more
clearly? You’ve never
shied away from
showing combat.
KIRBY: Well, you’ve
got to remember that More of Jack’s Fighting American villains, from Roz’s sketchbook.

34
when I was drafted, it was kind of a relief.
MURRAY: Really? Well, you had to expect it anyway.
KIRBY: Well, I expected it, of course. But I landed on the beaches of
France ten days after D-Day, and I can tell you that it affected my
entire life.
MURRAY: Yeah, but it didn’t seem to affect your work in a way
that I measure. You didn’t come back and just draw romance
comics, saying, “I don’t want to draw action, gunfighting, or
anything like that.”
KIRBY: No.
MURRAY: You went back and got into it. And did it affect
your work in any way that you perceive, in the sense of—?
KIRBY: It might have. I think I was maybe a little older and
wiser. But no, I was doing the same kind of work.
MURRAY: Hmm, because I remember a quote from, I think, The
New Gods where a character says a very telling quote, that
“There’s no glory in war, it’s just a cold game with a butcher.” And
it’s one of the most powerful lines you’ve probably written in your
entire career.
KIRBY: Well, I’ve always felt that it was and that’s exactly what it is.
MURRAY: Yet you came back from the war able to draw action in
such a way that it was still entertaining and interesting.
KIRBY: Well, I had to do what the formula demanded, see?
MURRAY: Right, but did it bother you? Had you outgrown that?
It doesn’t seem that way to me.
KIRBY: No, I hadn’t outgrown that. In fact, the war rather accentuated
it and I can tell you that I saw sights that would stop you in your
tracks. But that’s going to be in my biography.
MURRAY: Yeah, I don’t want to get into that. I guess on the bottom
line here, I’m very intrigued by the fact that you could go off to war,
see those things, do those things, come out of it and go back and still
draw fun action and not either be soured by it or—.
KIRBY: It’s the only thing I knew and I had to pick up where I—I
had to pick up my tools where I left them, and build the things that I
left behind, and renew them in some way. And I did that by trying to
catch the tenor of the period, and the tenor of the period was away
from war, and it was away from the things I didn’t want to think
about. And so actually, I did them badly. It was like running away
from your own dreams, see?
KIRBY: So the only trick that confronted us was the dialogue and I
MURRAY: Yeah, hmm. Let’s go back to before the war. I mean we’re think we did well on that.
getting close to it, we’re now at the 50th anniversary of the beginning
of World War II and we’re going to be very close to the 50th anniver- MURRAY: Do you remember the actual creation of the character
sary of Captain America soon. I guess I should ask you about creating very well in terms of when you first sat down, and how you bounced
Captain America with Joe Simon. How did that character come the idea around, and how the germ grew into a character?
about and what do you remember of doing that first ten issues that KIRBY: Well, the germ always grows. We need a heroic character
you did with him? like—Superman was already in progress and the world was becoming
KIRBY: Well, I can only tell you that Captain America himself was aware that the super characters were—at least America was—that
something we did when we were very young and in fact, Joe was just super characters were a new vogue, and Joe and I looked at it the
out of college and I was out of the lower East Side. [laughs] And we same way, and we came up with super characters of our own, and
both enjoyed doing Captain America and we just made it kind of a Captain America happened to be it, Captain America and Bucky.
life-long progression. MURRAY: Well, you make it sound simple, but actually, it was a
MURRAY: Would you say he’s your greatest creation? That’s a tricky pretty revolutionary concept and no one had grabbed the—.
question, but he’s your earliest big creation. KIRBY: It was a revolutionary concept and that’s the reason why we
KIRBY: Well, yeah, he was our big creation and he symbolized an tackled it, because we felt that was what the day demanded. If you’re
entire period. And in fact, he symbolized things that lasted for going to sell something, we’ve learned the business of selling
many, many years. Like he’d say he went through all the heartaches antiques. We weren’t going to draw Maggie and Jiggs, see?
and all the joy that that particular era symbolized. So yes, Captain MURRAY: [chuckles] That’s true.
America was very, very real. He was a real person, Bucky was real, KIRBY: So we were going to draw what was selling and what sold
and I can tell you that Joe and I are real. was anything that resembled Superman. And Captain America, in
MURRAY: I can believe that. [mutual laughter] his own right, was different and he was dynamic and Bucky was a
35
great addition. He represented the younger people and we had what KIRBY: Yes, the Red Skull is something I’ll always remember
we wanted. because in a way, he was an anti-hero and as important as the hero
himself. So remember, your evil guys are just as important as the
MURRAY: How did the name Captain America come about?
virtuous ones.
KIRBY: Well, the Fighting American was the product of rethinking,
see, of refreshing an old theme. MURRAY: Oh, yeah. Well, who invented the Red Skull?
KIRBY: Well, the Red Skull? The Red Skull was just a different way of
MURRAY: No, I asked how the name “Captain America” came out. I
making a Nazi.
mean you could have called him any number of things.
KIRBY: Oh, yes, we could have. MURRAY: I mean, who invented him?
KIRBY: I did.
MURRAY: I wondered if you had other names that you rejected before
you hit upon Captain America. MURRAY: Oh, you did, okay. And you didn’t wrap him in the Nazi
KIRBY: No, no, Captain America was fine. flag. You just put a red skull on his head and put him in green.
KIRBY: No, Hitler put the red skull on his head.
MURRAY: He was always Captain America.
KIRBY: Yes, he was always Captain America because it’s a euphonious MURRAY: That’s right. Well, that’s true. But in the sense that you
name. It’s easily pronounceable and easily remembered. And there’s didn’t make him an exact opposite, which I find interesting. You
no use going any further with a thing like that when it sounds perfect didn’t wrap him in the Nazi flag. You made him, basically, his own
to you. person, shall we say?
KIRBY: Yes, and we all are, so if we can get back to Fighting American,
MURRAY: Right. The costume design, did you go through several
I’ve got to explain a little more on that. Fighting American was the
before you hit upon one that worked?
same kind of thing. Fighting American was our reaction to the Reds
KIRBY: No, I did it right. [mutual laughter]
and in fact, the Reds weren’t the same. We had to look upon the
MURRAY: You did it right the first time. Reds as the same kind of an enemy as the Nazis. The Nazis were very
KIRBY: Yeah. You know, they threw me out of several art classes sure of themselves and they were evil to us because they were the
because I thought I was right and they felt that I should have taken antithesis of everything we stood for. They were going to make
thirty days to draw this model. [Will laughs] Of course, I was the kind slaves of us and we were going to become their puppets and it’s the
of guy that never drew every muscle in
the body and I didn’t expect to draw
like Rembrandt because Rembrandt (left) Early 1970s Red Skull sketch.
wasn’t selling. [mutual laughter] (next page) This is purported to be Joe
Simon’s studio guide, outlining the
MURRAY: Good answer. One thing you changes to Cap’s shield and costume
did change on Captain America is you between the first two issues of Captain
changed the old triangular shield to a America Comics.
round one. I wonder what caused that
change.
KIRBY: Well, the round one was like a
discus and I figured a round one, we
could use as a gimmick, and we could
throw it like a discus, and we could use
it in a variety of ways. It was just another
gimmick, you see?
MURRAY: Yeah, but basically, you
changed it to get more use out of it, to
make it more—
KIRBY: Yeah. As a triangle, the uses
would congeal, see?
MURRAY: Yeah, you sort of pioneered
the Frisbee, in that sense.
KIRBY: Oh, yes, it was a Frisbee. There’s
no doubt about it. But you could roll it,
you could throw it, and there’s a num-
ber of things you could do with a discus
that you can’t do with a triangular-
shaped object.
MURRAY: Do you have any favorite
Captain America stories from the old
Simon and Kirby era? Do any of them
stick in your mind, or any villains?
KIRBY: Oh, gosh. I haven’t thought
about it in all these many years.
MURRAY: All right, but let me ask you
about the Red Skull.

36
kind of a life an American can never lead, while the
Russians were like Super-Khakalovich. [Will laughs] And
Super-Khakalovich, he had one beef, they gave him a
second-rate uniform. And there were others.
MURRAY: Well, do you remember, for instance, Square-
Hair Malloy from Fighting American or “Z Food” or—my
favorites were Poison Ivan and his little cohort. Do you
remember those guys?
KIRBY: I remember those guys. But remember, Fighting
American also fought gangsters and he fought the kind of
guys that were everpresent in our society. So the gangsters
weren’t as glamorous, but somehow they always had a
powerful connotation, so I had him tangling with them.
MURRAY: Well, I don’t know if you’ll agree with this. This
is my opinion, but let me throw it at you. Although I like
Captain America a lot, and still do, I like Fighting American’s
uniform better than Captain America’s uniform. Do you
agree with that or do you see it even as a “better or worse”
situation? I happen to like the design on Fighting
American’s uniform much more than on Captain America’s.
KIRBY: Well, Fighting American’s uniform was more elabo-
rate. Listen, I also got a commentary on the Arabs. I had
one called “The Sneak of Araby.”
MURRAY: Uh-huh, I haven’t read that one.
KIRBY: Yes, and of course, it was just funny. You know,
satirical.
MURRAY: You also did an occasional science-fiction story
in Fighting American too. Like “Space Face,” I guess, was the
famous one.
KIRBY: Yes.
KIRBY: Yes, I did.
MURRAY: Yeah, what do you remember about that?
KIRBY: Well, “Space Face,” he was our entrancement with the flying MURRAY: I wonder what was his opinion of what you decided to do
saucer. And remember, the flying saucer was the big thing at that with your—when you first decided to do it. I would think someone
period. Everybody was seeing U.F.O.s and of course, we haven’t seen who has a very solid job as a tailor would look askance at a son who
one since. [mutual laughter] says, “I’m going to be a cartoonist.”
KIRBY: No, he didn’t look askance at all, as long as I brought the
MURRAY: Oh, have you ever seen one? money home, see?
KIRBY: No, no, and I’m not going to fall into that kind of thing.
MURRAY: So you had no parental resistance to the career you chose.
MURRAY: I take it you don’t believe in them. KIRBY: Oh, no. My father, actually, he really liked me and he liked
KIRBY: No, I don’t believe in them. my efforts. So yeah, and if, at that time, if you brought your money
MURRAY: That’s interesting for a guy who uses them a lot in his home, the family was certainly satisfied and they never questioned
stories; you don’t believe in them. your veracity.
KIRBY: No, but I do believe in fantasy. And of course, fantasy comes MURRAY: Yeah, well, I think it would have seemed, back then, a
naturally to me. I come from a family of—my folks’ll be European. If kind of frivolous thing to do, to become a comics artist. But I guess
you were peasants, sitting around a fire, waving, and you were the money was so good, it was different.
telling folk tales after a hard day’s work in the fields, well, you’d KIRBY: Yes.
come up with things like Dracula and you’d come up with things
that were similar to the kind of characters we have in comics today. MURRAY: You know, one thing that really fascinates me about your
In fact, that was their own comics. The peasants didn’t publish, but career is you were one of the pioneers of the comics creators and you
they had their own fantasies, just as we have ours. created one of the three or four or five, whatever, great comics char-
acters. Let’s say Superman’s one, Wonder Woman’s the other,
MURRAY: You seem to still be able to spin the fantasies at a later Batman’s the other, Captain America’s another.
point in life after which a lot of people outgrew them. What makes KIRBY: Yeah, I remember Superman came from young fellows, just
you still be able to reach into the adolescent in you, or the child in like myself.
you, and still be a storyteller?
KIRBY: Because I can. I’m conditioned to be a storyteller. My mother MURRAY: Yeah, but the thing that separates them from you, Bob
was a great storyteller and actually, all of my folks were immigrants Kane or Joe Simon or Jerry Siegel—not to take anything away from
and I used to listen to their stories all the time. That’s when I wasn’t them, they were pioneers—but they were basically one-hit wonders.
in a street fight. [mutual laughter] They did one great character and left the field relatively early. You
kept inventing new characters. You kept going.
MURRAY: Now here’s a question for you that’s sort of off the track. I KIRBY: Yes, I couldn’t help that, and because I loved doing that, I
read that your father was a tailor, and he lost his job during the still do. And that’s why I’m still writing my novel.
Depression, and you had to help support the family.
37
MURRAY: But they seemed to never come up with another character of satire. The characters were good, the adversaries were good, and
as strong as their first character, and you have certainly come up they were all unforgettable in their own way.
with characters as good as Captain America since that. You seem
MURRAY: One interesting wrinkle on Fighting American, which I
much more of a fertile person, a much more energetic person, and I
guess you never got into the stories because they were sort of short,
wonder where the drive comes—.
was the fact that he took over his brother’s body to become Fighting
KIRBY: Well, that’s a difference between people. It’s a difference
American. It was kind of a twist on the Captain America origin, but
between people and I never let adversity bother me. I know I was my
a very strong twist with a lot of story potential that was never really
own person and I always knew I could do well if I wanted to, when I
realized, that whole business about his brother was short and his
wanted to, and I have. I never doubted myself.
mind was transferred into his brother’s healthy body, and it never
MURRAY: Yeah, but you also never rested on your laurels. You really got into that. But gee, it seems to me that was something that
probably could have done Captain America for your entire life and you could have done a lot with.
not had to do anything else. KIRBY: I believe you’re right, but I was so concerned with developing
KIRBY: Oh, well, I could have easily have done that. That’s how, sure, the hero thing, that kind of left that behind.
things changed, and I changed with them, but I always did my best
MURRAY: What would you have done with that if you had explored
because I was always aware of sales. I was the kind of a guy who just
it, do you think?
loved to make sales and if I did about 750,000, I would cry, [Will
KIRBY: Well, I’d probably be exploring, maybe, my own relationship
chuckles] but if I’d do a million a month, which I did, I was happy
with my brother and that, I never did.
that way. It made the publisher happy, it made me happy, and I
liked working in that type of an atmosphere. MURRAY: But it was a nice sort of resonance to the character, that
that was sort of in the background, that he wasn’t the body he was
MURRAY: Do people still come up to you at conventions and say,
wearing, it was his brother’s body he was wearing. I thought that
“Fighting American is one of my favorite characters”? Does that
was a nice twist, a very strong way to bring that character into being.
name come up a lot among people who talk to you about your work?
KIRBY: Well, it was a manner of doing it, and it was a human way of
KIRBY: It comes up as much as the others, really.
doing it, and there was nothing false about it. So I think that’s the
MURRAY: Which is pretty amazing for, basically, a book that lasted hallmark of every bit of my work.
seven issues at a time when comics weren’t selling, if you think
MURRAY: Oh, I think so too. By the way, you’ve probably heard that
about it.
they’re now filming a Captain America movie. Do you have any feel-
KIRBY: Yeah, the name does pop up and I meant it to be every bit as
ings towards that?
powerful as any of my other characters, except that it had that touch
KIRBY: Well, they’ll probably use a lot of my images in it. And well,

Jack got a chance to depict the Civil War when he ghosted the Johnny Reb strip in 1957-58 for his friend Frank Giacoia. Inks by Frank; we’re unsure of the date.

38
 not getting into a lot of the other things.
KIRBY: Yeah, why, I have no idea what they’re going to do with him.
I have absolutely no idea. It’s their job and they’ll probably do it the
way they see it.
MURRAY: What did you think of the Captain America TV movies
and the serial? Did you have a specific opinion on any of those?
KIRBY: Well, I felt they were done like all serials, see? They were
done trite and very quickly. And of course, that’s how they came off
to me on TV. So you know, their time is limited so they get in their
point quick, fast, and that’s how they emerge to the viewer.
MURRAY: You weren’t consulted on that serial, were you?
KIRBY: No, I wasn’t.
MURRAY: How about the TV movies. Did you have an opinion on
those?
KIRBY: No.
MURRAY: Did you ever see them?
KIRBY: Oh, I’ve seen them all.
MURRAY: You’ve seen them, but you didn’t care for the TV movies.
KIRBY: Well, I took them as they made them. [mutual chuckling]
MURRAY: I’ll take that as a “no comment.” [laughs]
KIRBY: It’s a “no comment.”
MURRAY: Yeah, okay, that’s fine. Back to Fighting American, this is
a very unusual thing for Marvel to do, to print a character that they
don’t own. Does that signify Marvel becoming a little more respon-
sive to creator’s rights, or your rights, specifically? Or did you see
this as a different thing?
KIRBY: Well, I think that all new artists—in fact, at conventions, I
always felt that the artists should be able to take care of themselves,
and if the publisher is entitled to advise, the artist is entitled to
advise. And so I think that should be the quest for all artists, to get a
fair deal. So if they can do it, I wish them all the luck.
MURRAY: For a guy who has been one of the giants of the field—
and we can say that without any boastfulness at all—you’ve been
kicked around a bit in the sense that—
KIRBY: Oh, believe it!
MURRAY:—you’ve been kicked around a bit, yet it never squashed
your enthusiasm, at least as far as the work comes out, where another
A really nice mid-1970s Cap sketch. person, a lesser person, a less motivated person would have—I’m
reminded of a story I heard at a convention a number of years ago.
Maybe you know this story, maybe you don’t. The story goes like
they’re certainly not consulting me on it. this: John Buscema was on a panel—he was talking about when he
MURRAY: Well, let me put it this way, when it comes out, are you first went to work for Marvel, doing his super-heroes in the late ’60s.
going to go see it? He said he was doing a Silver Surfer meets Thor story and he
KIRBY: Well, I’ll go see it and see the kind of job they did on it. And knocked himself out. He said he went to Norse mythology and he
that’s the best I could do. tried to do Asgard the way it might have really looked in the Norse
version, and he tried to do Odin and Thor in a more naturalistic
MURRAY: Well, it doesn’t excite you, in other words. Or does it? I point of view, and he said he did his version. And he brought it in to
mean it is your character more than it is anybody else’s character, Stan Lee, and Stan Lee just criticized the thing to death and said,
with the exception of Joe Simon. And I would think there would be “You should make Asgard look like Jack Kirby’s Coney Island,” and
some satisfaction in the idea of that character coming to the big all these things. And Buscema went away from that, saying, “I will
screen, even if they’re not showing you— never put the work I put into that story in another story I do for
KIRBY: Oh, he’s been on the big screen before. And he’s been on TV Stan Lee ever again.” So basically, in one criticism session, John
before. Buscema’s enthusiasm for his work was just totally destroyed, and
MURRAY: This is true. he just put in his time since then. He does good work, but he lost
KIRBY: It’s just a—don’t handle him in the wrong way, and my that spark to go an extra mile. You never lost that spark.
curiosity would be in what that particular way is. KIRBY: No, I never did.

MURRAY: Yeah. Well, it’s my understanding they’re going a bit MURRAY: I’m sure you received just exactly those kinds of comments
more towards your original conception than you might expect. They from editors all—
are doing the reviving him after being in ice for a while, but they’re KIRBY: Stan Lee and I got into a lot of contentious situations, but
somehow, they never seemed to phase me. And John might be a little
39
more sensitive. done. They’ll keep the publisher alive for 150 to 200 years [Will laughs]
and maybe further. And business-wise, that’s really their purpose, so
MURRAY: Yeah, but that’s—any artist—
no matter how much satisfaction a strip itself gives you, you’ve got to
KIRBY: Yeah, I did it anyway.
always remember that aspect of it and that the publisher benefits
MURRAY: But that’s still an amazing thing to have the energy you from it as well as you do. And you’ve got a lot more than you do,
have and the resilience to be able to stand up to the punishing blows really, because he’s got so many more ways of producing it. It’s not
of editors and publishers. magazines today, it’s movies and television and it’s toys. So I’ve
KIRBY: Oh, and believe me, that’s been going on through the years. made a lot of publishers rich.
That’s why I used to bounce back like a yo-yo between publishers.
MURRAY: You did. You made a lot of fans rich too, in a different way.
MURRAY: In some ways, that may be your greatest triumph, the fact KIRBY: Oh, I made a lot of fans rich. [laughs] Oh, I see what you
that you’re the ultimate survivor. mean. If I did, I’m grateful for that.
KIRBY: Well, it’s the ultimate bull-fulness, really. And I feel I’m
MURRAY: It made me rich, you know.
important and what I’m doing is important. And what I’m doing is for
KIRBY: And I’m grateful for that. And you know, I can only sum it
real guys, for the reader, and that means a lot to me and I’m not going
up, saying that I did the best I could. I wasn’t the wisest of men, but
to lay down easily, you know, and just stick to my original purpose.
I had a great time, doing what I did. So I don’t know, maybe they
There’s no thought in my mind except just doing that.
cancel each other out. ★
MURRAY: Do you miss drawing comics at all? I mean you did so for
so long and so many hours a day, do you miss it at all?
KIRBY: Maybe after a period of time, I’ll miss
it. But right now, it’s just like a rest period and I
take it that way. I do a few, but not very many.
MURRAY: Do you have any regrets when you
look back over your career?
KIRBY: Well, I have a few regrets, but I concen-
trated too much on comics and less on busi-
ness, see? And a comic artist has to do both,
see? And I didn’t get—my deals weren’t good,
but my work was. So that’s my only failure.
MURRAY: Still, everything else is such a triumph.
That seems, as painful as that is to your readers,
it’s the work that endures.
KIRBY: It’s a triumph for the publisher, himself,
too. And it’s not that your work is so satisfying
to you. It was to me. But the publisher didn’t
do so badly either. And that’s the way of comics.
MURRAY: Let me ask you a question—it’s just
like a fan question, I guess you could say—your
longest run on any comic book was on The
Fantastic Four. Is that because you loved that
book or because circumstances made it neces-
sary for you to stick with that book?
KIRBY: No, The Fantastic Four was—I mean
yeah, The Fantastic Four was important to me,
the fact that I liked the characters, but I liked
all the characters that I drew, and it was no
more important than my other strips.
MURRAY: But you stayed on that the longest, a
hundred issues, as I recall. That’s a lot!
KIRBY: Yeah, I think it was a hundred and one.
[laughs]
MURRAY: Yeah, a hundred and one. I mean
that’s quite a record, even for a prolific guy like
you.
KIRBY: Yeah, well, they were great characters
and I loved drawing them.
MURRAY: Is there anything else you want to
tell me about Fighting American that you
remember, any anecdotes from doing the
book?
KIRBY: Well, Fighting American is like The
Fantastic Four or any other strip that I’ve ever One of the best names for a villain ever! Another of Roz’s sketchbook pages.

40
 Gallery

The things Jack loved most, with commentary by Shane Foley (based on graphic selections by John Morrow)

It’s well known now that King

Kirby liked voluptuous WOMEN
(what man doesn’t?)—and
what better example of a Kirby
woman than this 1967 pin-up
of Medusa? Both strong and
graceful, confronting and femi-
nine. Someone has suggested
that these FF Annual #5 pin-
ups were not drawn specifically
as pin-ups, but were actually
Jack’s original concept drawings
for the characters. I find this
hard to believe since the figure
drawing style of these pin-ups
is that which Jack developed
after FF #50. The Black Bolt in
the pin-up is not the lithe ver-
sion of FF #45 & 46 but more
like the heavier version of the
5th Annual and FF #82. And
Medusa herself, apart from this

apparent style mismatch,

sported a headpiece as well as
a different mask in her first
appearance (FF #36) and, judg-
ing by the art corrections in FF
#38, probably in her second as
well.
WOMEN

41
 Kirby of course was a very devout FAMILY man. Editor John says: “These are all drawings of

FAMILY
daughter Lisa. Lisa loved horses and still does, hence these drawings done by her father for her.
When I was visiting her house this summer, I saw the big image (in B&W, inked by Mike Royer,
which I had colored for this issue by Tom Ziuko), done when she was 14 (circa 1974), and the
one in the oval frame, with its beautifully delicate pencil-work, from when she was about 7.” The
top right image is an undated, quicker sketch of young Lisa by her proud father.

42
43
MYTH

From what we’ve all read, concepts and tales of MYTH thrived in Kirby’s brain, and he was
forever putting those ideas on paper. Many were undeveloped, such as the powerful half-
finished piece called simply “The Gods.” Kirby had drawn Darkseid
holding the Earth in this fashion. Did this piece inspire a later Darkseid
illo? Or was this piece inspired by a previous Darkseid pic? Either way,
Jack lived in a universe of the gods. (Date unknown.)
Speaking of Darkseid, editor John says, “I’ve always been taken by
how different Darkseid looked late in Jack’s career, vs. his early more
menacing appearance. The craggy face smoothed considerably over
time.” These two wonderful pencil examples show he’s right. Left is
from the early 1970s, and above is from Super Powers #5 (1984 first
series).
Following those is a page of tight, extreme-action pencils from New
Gods #9 (1972). John went on to say, “I saw the original art for this
New Gods #9 page at the CSUN exhibit, and noticed lots of Wite-Out in
panel 2 and 4. Jack cared enough to make text corrections to it, and
send it back to Mike Royer to re-letter those two balloons, over very
minor (but nice) changes. Compare it to the published issue.”

44
45
 WORK
Since WORK and the security it provided were
so important to Kirby, it’s obvious why his
’80s stint drawing and creating animation pre-
sentations were a Godsend for him. It not only
provided a better income and health care
benefits when he needed it, but it gave him lots
of creative freedom, and he could draw larger
size as his eyesight was failing. It was a perfect
fit. Presented here is a beautiful, fully detailed
image still in pencil produced for Thundarr, as
well as an Alcala-inked Thundarr image, then
that same image in its simplified final form. As
editor John says, “(These) show the power he
still had, and the work ethic he applied to this
stuff, even though it was going to get watered
down.” (Maybe Thundarr is really rescuing
daughter Lisa, not Ariel, as they leap to that
magnificent horse?)

46
47
 We also know that Jack was proud of his COUNTRY and everything America was meant to stand for, intensely
disliking the attitude of many that strove to talk it down.

Is this the reason then, that in the sketchbook he drew for Roz, he included General Argyle Fist? Why else
would he overlook the wonderful Arnim Zola from the same Captain America run? Or the Swine? Or the
Night Flyer? But, perhaps, such was Jack’s attachment to his war experience—and the value he placed on
guarding his beloved country—that the General was considered worthy for inclusion.

Following this is a tightly penciled

page, originally produced for
Our Fighting Forces #151
(1974), but never scripted, inked
or published. The note at the top
seems to be spot-on as to its
original place in the story.

Note how it seems that Kirby’s

method was to draw fully the
main action, but leave back-
grounds only roughed in until
he knew how much was to be
covered by wordage. A delightful
page!
Country

48
49
 An ongoing examination of Kirby’s art and compositional skills

(below) Jack Kirby was

born August 28, 1917
at the Kurtzberg family
The King & His City
tenement apartment at
ack Kirby’s life force was attuned to the rhythms of New York City. Growing up on the Lower

J
147 Essex Street.
Below is a photo by East Side’s Essex Street, the King began to inject the flavor and wild exuberance of that neigh-
Tom Kraft of what the borhood, as well as the teeming bustle of the greater metropolis, into his earliest stories. One of
building looks like
today. Can’t you picture
his most vibrant early series, Star Spangled Comics’ “Newsboy Legion” was set in Suicide Slum, a
young Jack climbing fictional version of Kirby’s crowded birthplace. The Legion was
the fire escapes? a motley crew of multi-cultural youths. Their protector, the
heroic Guardian, was a costumed hero whose alter ego was police
officer Jim Harper.
With the city as its backdrop, the series action exploded
throughout the streets, alleys, and rooftops of Suicide Slum. In
particular, Kirby seemed to exult in dizzying aerial acrobatic con-
flicts that spanned the gulfs and canyons of Manhattan. Clearly,
such action had been inspired by the artist’s vividly remembered
inner city experiences. In a Comics Journal #134 interview conducted
by Gary Groth, Kirby described some of the more unusual gang
fights that he had engaged in as a boy.
“A climb-out fight is where you climb a building. You climb
fire escapes. You climb to the top of the building. You fight on the
roof, and you fight all the way down again.”
Here on the cover of the May 1942 issue of Star Spangled
Comics #8, we see just such a scene, as members of the Newsboy Legion create a human bridge
between buildings with their connected bodies. The skewed angle of the structures and the lithe
dynamic leaping form of the Guardian create a tangible sense of vertigo for the viewer.
Twenty odd years later, The Fantastic Four was one of the first comics to be set in New York City,
as opposed to a generic town such as Superman’s Metropolis. In FF #4, readers would be astounded to
see Johnny Storm, on the run from his teammates, taking refuge in lower
Manhattan’s Bowery, a neighborhood not too far from Kirby’s birthplace.
Johnny is surely walking down desolate streets that the King was more
than familiar
with. [For more
on this amazing
story, see TJKC
#60’s entry,
“Dynamic
Chemistry.”]
In a
large Chapter
panel from
the FF’s
sixth issue,
Kirby gives us incontro-
vertible evidence that the Four’s Baxter Building
headquarters was located in Manhattan, before
it had been mysteriously levitated above the
island. The perspective slant of the structure
again gives a strong sense of vertigo, as our angle
of vision plunges us earthward. The genius stroke
of placing the formation of jets below gives us
scale, as well as various directional indication guides. My eye
scans directly from the red A in “Trapped” and across the street
50
below it to the first jet, and then down and around to the figures Kirby has laboriously arranged. The torque of the Surfer’s figure,
leaning out of the windows. Kirby’s genius again asserts itself in his with its varying positioning of arms, legs, head, and torso is situated
giving his reader an alternative way of scanning the panel, also con- within a multi-dimensional grid that accentuates its kinetics. Kirby
nected to the letter A. The eye is equally liable to drop from it is a master of positioning his figures so that they move three-
straight down the avenue that leads to the front of the Baxter dimensionally within the two-dimensional space of the panel.
Building, which again takes one directly to the jets. The jets and the So it is that the Surfer’s left arm is moving diagonally towards
stories of the building are spatial levels or lattices that break up the us initiating the motion of his entire body, while his right arm is
panel into multiple dimensions. counter-posed behind him. This is one of Kirby’s best examples of a
figure appearing to be on the verge of zooming out of its panel.
The angles of the wall of buildings at the top of the panel are
pushing the Surfer forward. The somewhat pentagonal shape behind
the Surfer’s head accentuates this effect. The row of buildings that
border the water on the left optimize the thrust, as do the tiny
shapes of the docks. Even the speed trail sweeping behind the surf-
board creates a separate level and a dimension that divides the space
and positions the figure optimally within it. Kirby gives the figure
enough room by opening up the space to the Surfer’s right with the
body of water, the shape of which also gives the figure more propulsion.
So much of Kirby’s work appears deceptively simple until one
begins to attempt to understand the workings of the man’s mind. It
As the perspective of this panel indicated, the direction of The took decades for him to amalgamate the various ways of rendering
Fantastic Four comic seemed to gradually reach ever higher into the reality into a uniquely individual and original shorthand technique
cosmos, culminating in the interstellar sagas of Galactus and the for depicting four-dimensional space/time. As surely as the Silver
Silver Surfer. Still, the FF were not above regularly duking it out in Surfer soars above the great metropolis in this awesome tableau, so
the streets of New York, as this image from FF #74 [above] so aptly Kirby’s limitless imagination enabled him to transcend the narrow
shows. Kirby took great pleasure in destroying huge blocks of New confines of the ghetto that birthed him, and reach the stratospheric
York while the heroes and villains bashed each other through build- heights he was to attain. ★
ings. As in panel five of this sequence, the Thing would often find
himself hovering comically above the landscape, like Wile E. Coyote
just before a fall. This was often an opportunity for Kirby to give us a
marvelous perspective shot of the buildings below him.
Kirby seemed to love this particular scenario with the Thing,
seeing as he had already used it fairly recently in this panel from
Fantastic Four #69 [left]. Here
the Thing has leaped from a
building and is seemingly
suspended, spread-eagle over
the canyons of New York.
It is the beautifully
sculpted perspective of the
buildings below the Thing
that insist that his suspension
is only temporary, and he will
quickly fall. In particular, the
artfully positioned black spot-
ting on the Thing’s right side
leads the eye down to the
shadows on the right side of
the building, which drop like
a plum line to the bottom
right side of the panel.
The amazing thing is
that this is just a relatively
small panel within the context of the story, and yet Kirby goes to the
trouble of creating this incredible deep space cityscape background.
That is what sets the King apart from the herd.

If I could choose a single image that showcases Kirby’s mastery

of deep space, combined with awesome architectural structure, it
would be this full-page panel from FF #72 [right] of the Surfer soaring
high above the canyons of Manhattan.
Kirby only approximates the correct perspectives here, bending
the rules to suit his vision. The various horizontal, vertical and diag-
onal shapes create a multiplicity of spatial lattices. One can literally
spend an hour studying the complexity of the architectural structures
51
Innerview
May 1971 Kirby Interview
by Lee Falk and Steve DeJarnatt, and edited from a raw transcript by Concrete creator Paul Chadwick in 2014

[PAUL CHADWICK: own [opinions]. I [don’t] have any special crusade to

This unpublished inter- inject into the comics so I can convert others. I feel I
view, conducted at the have no right to do that. Nobody’s ever done that to
1971 San Diego Comic me, and I’m not going to do that to anybody else.
Convention, was done as
Q: Do you think politics has any place in comics?
part of a paper for the
KIRBY: Certainly, it has a place… it needs a special divi-
class “Confrontations of
sion by itself—just like romance comics, or adventure
Politics and Art” by two
comics. Comics should come out of all aspects of life, all
young students at
aspects of society. But as far as politics, I feel comics
Occidental College in Los
should do it in a definitive way. In other words, do it
Angeles. One, Steve
rationally, research a subject, then give an opinion on it.
DeJarnatt, went on to
In other words, if I were to comment on My Lai,
write and direct films,
say, I would get all the facts before I put it in the comics.
including the cult film
Then I’d make a rational version of it. I wouldn’t just
Miracle Mile, which I
give you a raw emotional feeling on something that
storyboarded. During a
demands just the opposite. That would be wrong. [My
recent visit, he dug out the
Lai was an incident during the Vietnam War in March
interview and paper. The
1968, where US soldiers brutally killed civilians.]
transcript was very raw,
including every repetition, Q: You spoke earlier on the merits of putting your per-
trailing-off sentence frag- sonal feelings in the comics… politics are a very person-
ment, “ahs,” and even a al thing…
PA system announce- KIRBY: No, those are my… for instance, [earlier] I spoke
ment, so I have edited it about ghosts. That’s a common subject. Everybody has a
for clarity. [set of beliefs] on that. As I said [then], that’s my particular
It’s amusing to see version of it and I’m not asking anyone to believe it.
the college students try to
Q: But politically, how would you describe yourself—
bait Kirby into trashing
liberal, conservative, Democratic, Republican?
Steranko and Stan Lee,
KIRBY: Politically, I can’t categorize myself. I don’t
which Jack refrains from
believe in labels. What I might say today may be liberal,
doing (though his tone on
and tomorrow it might be conservative—because some-
Lee is chilly). Jack’s pretty
one has found aspects of the issue I haven’t seen. So I
(above) Jack’s original hedged and conflict-averse in his comments generally. But
1960s concept drawing never give definitive answers on politics.
it’s an interesting time capsule, with Kirby’s ramblings on
for the Black Panther. I feel I’m not qualified, [nor do I have] easy access to
Captain America, drugs, racism, and God. He repeats
(below) This interview is all the information. Whatever I give you on politics
himself, contradicts himself, and sometimes becomes lost
unpublished, except for would come from my own experiences in the past. The
a ditto’d transcript that in words. But keep in mind the poor guy was grabbed at a
past might be good enough. That’s what I mean to say.
was apparently shared noisy convention and asked difficult, overly broad questions
I’m conditioned by a certain type of life, and I can only
only with a college class with no time to reflect. When Jack lapses into the style of
at Occidental College. give you the [results] of my conditioning. I’m not asking
speech of his Lower East Side youth, it’s charming.]
Below is the first page of anyone to accept or reject them. I can just throw them
the original transcript. out and say this is what I’ve done, and that’s me, exactly!
QUESTION: Can we talk to you?
To answer on an issue, it might reflect what I thought in
KIRBY: Yeah, what, two minutes, three?
the past, or what kind of guy I am.
Q: Could you comment on your
Q: What about drugs?
political beliefs and how they
KIRBY: The only thing I can say is I’m not going to
might influence your work?
knock it, because I haven’t tried it. But do mind-
KIRBY: Like I say, I never inject
expanding drugs produce mind-expanding people? So
politics into the comics. I never
far I haven’t seen that kind of product. I haven’t seen
inject my personal beliefs. Comics,
people who have anything particularly relevant to con-
to me, are purely entertainment. I
tribute, after using [drugs].
feel I’ve no right to impose what I
believe on readers. And so I don’t. Q: How about racism? In your comics, do you integrate?
I merely entertain. I do my versions KIRBY: [misunderstanding the word as “discriminate”] No,
of classics, I do my version of I don’t integrate! I’ve never been a racist! I’ve never seen
originals, I do my version of what- color as such. I come from a place where there were no
ever I develop. minorities—just people you know. I’ve always seen people
Outside serious issues? I as people.
certainly have my own. I form my Yes, I’ve used all the cliché words pertaining to
52
negroes, and anybody else, because that’s all I heard around my Q: Did you dislike or resent any of the things Steranko did with your
neighborhood. But I’ve never [acted] in a way that would be detri- Captain America?
mental to them. KIRBY: No. I can’t either like or dislike it, because it’s Steranko’s own
version. That’s something you’ll have to [take up] with Steranko. I
Q: In your comics, do you portray blacks in major roles?
can’t analyze it for Steranko, because it hasn’t come out of me. I
KIRBY: Yes, I feel they have a major role in our society! Just like any
don’t know why Steranko’s version is as it is. Only Steranko can
of us have…
[say]. I could analyze it in my own way, if I like, but I don’t know if it
[An interruption occurs as Jack asks to continue over at his table]
Q: Did you create Captain
America?
KIRBY: Yeah, I did.
Q: He’s sort of a cultural-political
symbol, isn’t he?
KIRBY: Captain America is a
kind of wish symbol. I’ve been
brought up with patriotic feel-
ings as much as the next guy. I
want to see America protected as
much as the next guy. Captain
America is to me a symbol to
protect America; nothing could
happen to America if Captain
America was there.
To me, it’s just a feeling.
Like religion is a feeling—the
kind of feeling I have when, oh, a
man can try to make contact
with God. Personally, I believe in
God. I have that feeling, but
nothing more. I feel part of Him
is in me, and if I have that feel-
ing, I’ve made contact. I’m my
own church. I’m my own syna-
gogue, as a living thing. I feel
that contact with God because
I’m alive. A building isn’t alive. A
building is something built by
me. And if it’s built by me, I have
responsibility for that contact.
Q: So would you say that
Captain America is your symbol
of what America should be?
KIRBY: Not what America should
be. Captain America is a symbol
of what America means to me. I
feel America should be protected.
I’d like it to be preserved. So
Captain America preserves it for
me.
Q: How great an influence do you
think such a symbol has on young
kids who read your comics?
KIRBY: Captain America, to my
mind, is a symbol that can be
identified with by anybody. If
you’re an American, you can
identify with Captain America,
no matter what your persuasion.
Simple as that. I’ve always kept
him that way. He’s not catego-
rized, not any particular type of
man. He’s a representative
symbol of what you want. Vykin takes center stage in Forever People #7 (1972). Hey, do you suppose Jack first named him just Vykin—ie. “Viking”—
then subliminally thought of “Eric the Red,” and that’s where “Vykin the Black” came from?
53
[would be] the correct interpretation. image, you know, and you’ll get your head beat… you understand?
But if you’re a rational, well-balanced human being, let the other
Q: What do you think of Stan Lee’s Daredevil? It’s been quite political
guy present his argument. You either believe it or you don’t. That’s the
lately.
way I’ve always operated. So I don’t inject my politics into cartoons.
KIRBY: If he’s getting political, it’s strictly from Stan Lee. What
I don’t feel I should. I haven’t got the right, and it’s not my field.
you’re getting is Stan Lee’s politics.
Q: When you created Captain America, did you have any idea that it
Q: Do you think that’s good?
would turn into a modern myth?
KIRBY: Ah… it’s different from [my approach].
A: No. You know, I created it as good entertainment. I thought
Q: Do you think Stan Lee injects more politics into his comics? somebody might like it, and they did. And they’ve been following it
KIRBY: Yes. ever since, and I’m grateful.
Q: So he’s someone in the comic book industry who’s very political. Q: So you feel that since comics are entertainment, they should deal
KIRBY: Yes, I feel that Stan Lee is political. What you’re getting is strictly with a fantasy world, and not allude to the real situation of
Stan Lee’s politics. Simple as that. our society?
KIRBY: I say the fantasy world should be the fantasy world. If you try
Q: Do you think he’s doing it conscientiously, or just writing to make
to inject reality into fantasy, and peddle fantasy as reality, see, then
a story that will sell?
you’re doing a disservice of some kind. In other words, if you tell
KIRBY: [perhaps mishearing] I hate to think he’s doing it consciously,
someone a fairy tale, and tell them that’s the real thing, you’re doing
let’s put it that way.
him a disservice.
Q: What effect do you think his political views will have on kids?
SOMEONE ELSE: Sorry, son, he’s got to go change now.
KIRBY: I have faith in young people. If Stan Lee has something to say,
you either believe it or you don’t. That should be the way with any- Q: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Kirby!
body. You either believe it or you don’t. If you’re an emotional dumb- KIRBY: Ah, yeah—it’s my pleasure, really. ★
dumb, see, and you hang on to an image, you’ll go along with that

the formal sense. Strictly comics. In other bet they’ll snap ’em up on you. It’s not the
Jack Kirby, Art Critic
Transcribed and edited by John Morrow
words, you take the same comics you have
here. If I remember right, your color stuff
regular art alone, see; it’s a different type of
art. You go up to the guy at a gallery, take
was about the best I’ve really seen around. ’em up to a gallery. It’s not really bullsh*t in
At a mid-1970s San Diego Comic-Con, Jack a way, [Hambone and Carl laugh] because
HAMBONE: He’s done some things on glass.
was approached by fan David “Hambone” comics are editorial art. So tell them you’re
Hamilton on the convention floor to request JACK: You ever see these dyes—y’know, doing editorial art, which is true—because
an interview. During the conversation, Kirby the Martin’s dyes? the damn thing comes out of a printing
took a few minutes on press, what’s the difference—whether it
CARL: No.
the spot, to critique comes out of a palette or a printing press?
Hambone’s friend Carl JACK: They go over inks. In
Taylor’s artwork. Carl [at other words, they’re color
left, in a recent photo] had that goes over inks, so you
shown his work to Jack don’t lose your ink lines.
before, and as you can CARL: I was using fountain
see from this mini-inter- pen ink and food coloring to
view, Kirby remembered it. But more than a do this.
critique, Jack offered Carl some sage
advice on how to best profit from his talents. JACK: Well, it didn’t hide the
Thanks to Hambone for providing the vintage ink line. These dyes do the
audio tape recording he made of the same thing, and they’re rich
encounter, which begins when they show as hell.
Jack some of Carl’s artwork: HAMBONE: Is that what you
JACK KIRBY: You like the use? I was wondering how
fantasy stuff. I remember, you you got that bright color on it.
had a lot of paintings, right? JACK: Yeah. But you can
Acrylic stuff? Did you ever paint with comics with that
think of doing anything really stuff. In other words, you
big? Instead of, y’know, stuff- keep your ink line and any-
ing it in a comic panel, doing thing you put down. And it
something, say, four or five comes out terrific as all hell.
feet? Did you ever think of So what I remember best is
that? the painting you do, which is
CARL TAYLOR: I’ve only... good. If you could do large
I did a few... stuff, see, I think you’d get Hard to believe, but there’s no
about a hundred bucks apiece. Kirby here. Pencils by Carl Taylor,
JACK: I’m not talking about I really do. I’d go anywhere; I inks by Sam De La Rosa.
formal art, y’know—art in
54
So make about four or five of them if you
can, okay? Large stuff. And you take ’em up
to the community gallery, and I bet you’d
get about a hundred apiece for those.
HAMBONE: But comics is his first love, and
that’s what he wants to break into.
JACK: That’s what he can do. He can do it
better on that stuff, than he can do it in
comics. Fill it with what you like, with rocket-
ships or super-heroes, or whatever you feel
like doing.
CARL: This is a picture I never did finish, of
Galactus.
JACK: Yeah! Why don’t you finish this thing,
or take this thing and make everything a
little larger. Just what you have here. It
doesn’t matter what the heck you put on it.
It could be Galactus, or your interpretation
of Galactus. Marvel isn’t gonna sue you. Put
it on this big—it doesn’t even have to be a
canvas. Get a big illustration board, see,
about this size—a double-spread size. This
is what I do ’em on. And color ’em up. Get
these Martin’s dyes and color ’em up. You’ll
come out with stuff that’ll amaze you. It’ll
really amaze you, and you’ll sell it. I mean,
what the heck is the difference if you get,
say, $20 a page for four pages, or you get
$100-200 for, y’know, two or three pages?
You understand what I mean?
CARL: Probably the only difference would
be, I’d only have copies if I made slides.
JACK: I tell you what you do. When you get
A tabloid in the UK agreed with Jack’s advice about large images. Cover of The International Times, June 1970.
’em done, if you can get photostats of them,
photographs of them, send ’em to me,
okay? And I’ll see what I can do, all right? actually, oil painting, a lot of guys feel that is make it simple. If you want to make one big
But that’s where you really belong. If you the accepted form. Well, it’s not the accepted tremendous figure, try that.
start cramming the kind of stuff you do... form. The accepted form is what you make.
I’ve seen your stuff for several years now, at CARL: What I might have to do, is get an
a couple of conventions. If you try to cram HAMBONE: This is not as crammed. opaque projector, and shoot it on there.
your stuff into these damn small panels, JACK: I would work at it the easiest way JACK: Work it any way you like. But if you
you’re not gonna make it. I think you’re possible for you to do it. In other words, in get something very powerful and very
gonna be happiest at doing what you really the way you like to do it. Not because some impressive, I think you’ll make a helluva lot
do. You’re an artist, you’re a painter. It other guy says, “Well, to do art, you’ve got more headway that way.
doesn’t matter what the hell you do, whether to work in oil,” or, “If you’re gonna make it, You can do this stuff right now if you
it’s comics or formal art. You don’t have to you work in watercolor.” Work it the way wanna. All you have to do is go to New York.
do what Da Vinci did, or anybody else did. If you like it. The thing I remember is not your You see what the beef is? I just happen to
you’re good at comics and you like doing sketches, but your paintings, which were be one of the few guys they’ll work with out
comics, and you color ’em up, as a good very, very good. I remember your costumes here. It’s only because I’ve already bumped
artist—a good artist is a good artist, no were just great. up the ratings. So even then it’s tough; it’s
matter what the hell he does. Comics is not that tough for me, but for you it’ll be
accepted as art anywhere, in fact even more HAMBONE: Reminiscent of Richard Corben.
tough. If you go to New York, you’ll land
so. So I’m willing to bet you get 100 to 200 JACK: No, he can do this any way, whatever something now if you want to. What you
bucks a page for what you’ve got. I’ll stake he likes. have there is very, very good. You’ve got a
anything on it. Not only that, once you start good style. What you really need is just
selling it, talk to someone about management. CARL: On the other side of this, I have some
working at it, until you refine it. When I did
of my characters.
CARL: I had been thinking about doing the first Captain America, it wasn’t any
some oil paintings, but I’m kinda rough on JACK: Yeah, and that’s great. Do paintings better than this, I can tell you that. It wasn’t
oils, so I never did get back to doing it. like that. I remember the effective ones you any better than this. But you spend about
did were the space things. Make a bigger ten years straight in the business, you come
JACK: Don’t do the oil paintings. Do the... one though, okay? Be as careful as you can out with something very good. ★
well, I shouldn’t have said that, because about layout. If you want to make it simple,
55
 TRIBUTE
CSUN Kirby Panel With opening commentary by Charles Hatfield

For a closer look at the The exhibition Comic Book Apocalypse: The Graphic World of Jack Kirby ran from August
CSUN exhibition itself, be 24 through October 10, 2015 at the California State University, Northridge Art Galleries
sure to check out last in Los Angeles. This show, the largest solo Kirby exhibition yet mounted in the United
issue’s feature.
States, incorporated 107 originals and filled the Main Gallery space, which consists of
For a video of this panel,
go to:
three rooms, about 3000 square feet, and 300 linear wall feet. Comic Book Apocalypse has
https://www.youtube.com/ the distinction of being the best-attended art exhibition in the history of CSU Northridge,
watch?v=vixR0CNrz1o drawing some 6200 visitors in its seven weeks. The opening reception, on Saturday,
(right) The companion August 29, drew more than 600 people; the gallery talk on the following Monday morn-
catalog to the exhibition ing, featuring Mark Evanier, was filled to capacity at about 150; and the show’s last big public event, a panel discussion
features scholarly essays and catalog signing on Saturday, September 26, drew more than 300. On its final afternoon, Saturday, October 10—a
about Jack’s work by Glen
David Gold, Diana Schutz,
period of just four hours—the show drew an additional 350-plus. The Gallery led a record number of tours through the
Howard Chaykin, Carla exhibition (more than forty, totaling about 1350 people). I cannot count the number of times I found myself in the
Speed McNeil, and others. Gallery, serving as de facto docent or hearing stories full of love and admiration from fans, friends, and colleagues of
It was published by and is Jack Kirby—and from people who had never looked at his work before!
available through IDW. I’m not surprised by any of this. Or, rather, I’m surprised and proud that I was able to do my part, but not at all
surprised by the sheer enthusiasm for Kirby’s art and the big numbers racked up at the Gallery. I think the Gallery team
may have been surprised, and that many of my CSUN colleagues were surprised, but to me the idea that people should
want to come see a hundred-plus Kirby originals is a
no-brainer.
For me, curating this show fulfilled a lifelong
dream, that of acknowledging publicly, somehow,
my fascination with, and never-repayable imagina-
tive debt to, the art of Kirby. Ten-year-old me and
fifty-year-old, professorial me were arm-in-arm on
this one, and delirious with joy to be doing it.
Comic Book Apocalypse was an idea whose time had
already past come. During my preparation for the
show, I talked or exchanged emails with several
other scholars who also wanted to do Kirby shows at
their institutions. I got lucky. On the heels of my
book, Hand of Fire: The Comic Art of Jack Kirby (2011),
I got the opportunity to be the first person to curate
a Kirby show at a university. This all came about
because CSUN Galleries Director Jim Sweeters—a
savvy, interested, and generous man—invited me to
do it.
What happened was that Jim and I met during the
Gallery’s big Robert Williams exhibition about six
years
ago.
(above) One of Jack’s On the night Williams—of Zap Comix and Juxtapoz fame—did the Hans
collages which was on Burkhardt Lecture (named for the abstract expressionist painter and
display at CSUN. former CSUN teacher) and a signing in the Gallery, I was somehow
(right) The promotional introduced to Jim. That event got me into the Gallery after too many
postcard for the exhibit. years away—I should have come long before—and that’s how we began
This Silver Surfer #18
image was also used for a to strike up a conversation about doing a comic art show. For the
giant mural in the gallery. record, that was on March 10, 2010. And then, five days later, incredi-
bly, I ran into Jim again at Pasadena City College, where esteemed artist
(and Kirbyphile) Gary Panter was doing a weeklong residency, facilitat-
ed by my colleague, PCC Gallery Director Brian Tucker. Serendipity!
From then on Jim and I were talking seriously about a comics exhibition.
I waffled for a while about what theme to do—Los Angeles cartooon-
ists? Alternative comics? Fantasy comics?—but when Hand of Fire
bowed at the end of 2011 to good reviews, I allowed myself, finally, to
see the obvious: What I really want to do is a full-on Kirby show.
Jim said yes, and that’s when our roughly three years of concerted
work really began. It turned out that we had bit off a lot. For a first-time
Main Gallery show devoted to original comic art—and a first-time cura-
torial effort by yours truly, an English prof—we aimed high. How high,
56
 do things in the gallery world, even as I
taught him about Kirby. Jim understood
the challenge of enlivening a space filled
with many objects of nearly the same size
and shape, of bringing in color to ener-
gize the scene, of taking an intimate form
known for its hand feel, the comic book,
and blowing it up to gallery scale. Jim’s
hands-on creativity helped make the
show spectacular. It’s one thing to sit in
your study and spin out arguments about
an artist on your laptop; it’s quite another
to build arguments in three dimensions
I didn’t realize until I began seeking out and courting collectors of while making sure not to get in the way of
the original art. The world of comic art collecting is a culture unto the viewer’s pleasure. Having learned so much through this experi-
itself, and back then I was not very familiar with it, despite having ence, I’m frankly dying to do more shows.
studied comics as reading matter for a good chunk of my life. You’ll see in the accompanying transcript of our Sept. 26 panel
Fortunately, certain collectors, such as Glen David Gold and Mark that the status of comic art as readable, handheld art, as opposed to
Evanier, and certain colleagues, such as my friend Ben Saunders (an spectacular gallery art, was one of my abiding concerns when it
experienced curator himself ), could act as my Virgils in this under- came to putting on this show. I wanted story to be highlighted as
world, so that I could eventually feel at home. What I’ve learned well as art. Fortunately, we were able to fulfill one of my earliest
about collectors and about the history of comic art during this expe- ambitions for the show by displaying all of the originals for a whole
rience, I can’t possibly tell in just a few paragraphs, but suffice to say issue of Kamandi (#14, 1973) in one of the rear galleries, alongside
that gathering the works for this show was a prolonged, sometimes Tom Kraft’s brilliant pencils-to-inks iPad display of this same issue;
suspenseful, and ultimately very social process. I asked for a lot of moreover, we were able to display all the originals for Thor #155
work because I could not overcome my worry that many of the (1968) in an adjoining gallery. This one-two punch turned out even
works we asked for would not materialize. But I was wrong: we better than I had hoped, because the differences in style and produc-
got a great many works, a trove really, and then in Summer 2015, tion between the Kamandi, inked and lettered by Mike Royer, and
with just weeks left until our opening, Jim and I set about figuring the Thor, largely inked by Vince Colletta and lettered by Artie
out to put all those works into the framework I had envisioned long, Simek, proved to be very instructive to gallery visitors. To show one
long ago. story edited by Kirby himself, and another edited by Stan Lee, and
It was then that I learned that one’s existing ideas and argu- to highlight certain features of the original boards that were artifacts
ments must inevitably yield to the sheer visual power of the art- of the production process, turned out to be a real coup, for which I
works once you have them—so many of them, in house, in hand, and am very grateful.
clamoring for space. Certain ideas I loved and pushed for almost In fact “grateful” describes my entire experience of curating the
from the start, such as creating a reading corner with books in it to show and co-editing, with Ben Saunders, its accompanying catalog
stress the readability of comic art, got pushed aside due to the chal- (co-published by CSUN and IDW under the supervision of Scott
lenge of showing so much Kirby work to advantage in a space that Dunbier). To have done these things—to have had the opportunity,
people, we hoped, would enjoy moving through. To take my inter- and seen the joy that the results brought so many—fills me with
ests and make them work within a space that visitors could navi- thanks and wonder. I only hope it won’t be long before the next big
gate—to make a livelier, more interactive space—that was the trick. Kirby exhibition in the States. We need more, and there is so much
Comic Book Apocalypse benefited a great deal from the help of more to show.
the Jack Kirby Museum and Research Center, which provided us
many images and several crucial design elements, including interac- [The following panel discussion was conducted on September 26, 2015,
tive iPad displays. Thanks to the Museum’s leaders, Tom Kraft and at California State University, Northridge. It was transcribed by Sean
Rand Hoppe, our show became much stronger. We also owe many Dulaney, edited by John Morrow, and revised by the panel.]
thanks to designer Louis Solis, who adapted a vin-
tage Kirby/Herb Trimpe splash (from Silver Surfer Jack hard at work on the left half of his
#18, 1970) to create the show’s branding image, painting “Dream Machine” in 1975. The
which became the template for the design of the original (pictured above) was on display
at CSUN. Look at all those Dr. Martin’s
whole space; to David Folkman, for the many won- dyes bottles! Photo by David Folkman.
derful photos; and to mural designer Geoff Grogan,
a terrific comics artist and teacher, whose staggering
“New Gods” mural inspired me to rethink just
where and how many of the works were going to go
into the space. Also, the CSUN Galleries team,
including exhibition coordinator Michelle
Giacopuzzi and assistants Jack Castellanos and Janet
Solval, did a tremendous amount of work to get the
art on the walls, matted and framed, shown to
advantage, and properly documented.
Sixteen lenders—a far cry from the mere hand-
ful I originally promised Jim—made the show possi-
ble. Without them, we would have had nothing. It
was Jim himself, though, who taught me the way to
57
 Sitting next to Steve is artist, curator, writer,
critic, experimental musician—you name it, Doug
Harvey, who can be found online at dougharvey.la.
[applause] Doug was, for more than a dozen years,
the lead art critic at L.A. Weekly, and it was his writ-
ing about Jack Kirby’s Fourth World that really
brought him onto my radar perhaps 15 years ago,
and we’re pleased to have him among our catalog contributors.
Sitting next to Doug is my colleague and good
friend, Ben Saunders from the University of Oregon.
[applause] Ben is the founder of the Comics and
Cartoon Studies program at the University of Oregon,
which is this country’s first undergraduate liberal
arts degree program in comics studies—a first, and
a program like no other. He’s also a renaissance liter-
ature scholar, a pop music scholar, a scholar of comic books and of
the superhero narrative, and the co-editor of our catalog, without
whom I could do nothing. So, thank you to Ben. [applause]
To my immediate left, Adam McGovern, a prolific
writer of cultural criticism and of comic books. You
may have seen him at hilowbrow.com or other online
critical venues. Among his comic book creations is a
deliriously Kirby-esque collaboration with Paolo
Leandri on the recent comic book published by
Image called Nightworld, which is really funky and
head-turning and great, so you should check that out. [applause]
JIM SWEETERS: I’m the gallery director here at the To my right, from Indiana University-Bloomington is the art
CSUN Galleries. Thank you for coming to our panel historian and artist, Andrei Molotiu, who is the
discussion on Jack Kirby—Comic Book Apocalypse: founder of the newly formed center at IU for the
The Graphic World of Jack Kirby. Charles Hatfield, study of comics and sequential art. His publica-
professor of English here on campus, will lead the tions include Fragonard’s Allegories of Love, which is
discussion and curated the exhibition. [applause] the companion to his Getty exhibition he curated
He teaches popular culture, graphic novel classes, here in L.A. some years ago, and also the mind-
and comics classes and, as I said, is in the English Department. So, boggling anthology called Abstract Comics. Andrei
I’m going to let him introduce the panelist—and thank you, pan- is the foremost authority and proponent of the abstract comic genre,
elists, for coming. Thank you all for coming, and we will see you or movement, and an incredible maker of sequential art in his own
later in the Gallery. [applause] right. [applause]
And finally, on the far right of the table, from
CHARLES HATFIELD: So, we’re flying by the seat of Stanford University, professor of film and media
our pants this afternoon. That seems appropriate studies, Scott Bukatman: a fellow comics teacher,
somehow, given the energy and sense of release or and, like so many here on the panel, another catalog
escape that you so often see in the work of the great contributor. Scott is the author of The Poetics of
Jack Kirby. We’re grateful to be able to mount an Slumberland, Terminal Identity, Matters of Gravity,
exhibition of Jack’s work here at Cal State Northridge, the BFI Film Classics book on Blade Runner, and,
and indeed to mount the largest exhibition of Kirby forthcoming from the University of California Press, an amazing
that this country has yet seen. It seems unlikely that Cal State book called Hellboy’s World. Scott Bukatman. [applause]
Northridge should be the place, but why not? [laughter] And the So let the record show Steve, Doug, Ben, Adam, myself, Andrei
answer as to how that came about has to do with the generosity of and Scott. More panelists than you can shake a stick at. So I want to
Jim Sweeters, our gallery director, who five years ago—just after start out with a brief question for every panelist, and I’ll ask you
meeting me—said, “Hey, how about a comics show?” I don’t think (though I’m springing this on you all unexpectedly) to answer this as
Jim knew what he was in for, necessarily. But since that time, we’ve succinctly as you can: [tell us] about your first Kirby comics or Kirby
worked together to bring the Comic Book Apocalypse show into our art memory, or an early formative one that sticks in your brain.
Gallery space. Whether it was delightful or confounding, whether you loved it or
We have a jam-packed panel of Kirby experts— were troubled by it. If there’s just something like that early in your
Kirby thinkers: artists and scholars and creators of all experience that you can relate to us. Steve?
stripes. And we’re just going to toss back and forth a
few broad and, we hope, generative questions this STEVE RODEN: Thanks. The first comic book I ever had as a child
afternoon. Many of the panelists are contributors to was from a babysitter named George Levitt, who was completely
the catalog. I hope to introduce them quickly, suc- insane. When my parents left the house and left me alone with him,
cinctly. So I’ll just start over here on my far left with all kinds of crazy stuff happened. One of the things he gave me that
L.A.-based artist Steve Roden. [applause] Steve is a painter. He’s a first babysitting night was Jimmy Olsen... I think it was #145. It still
maker of spaces, of installations. He’s a sound artist. He has an exhi- has, for me, everything that I’m interested in in Kirby’s work. It
bition ongoing now at the Pasadena Museum of California Art. He begins with three crazy monsters in the first three pages, and on the
can be found online at inbetweennoise.com. He’s also an avid collector fourth page is a monster called “Angry Charlie”, who looked like he
of comics art. was made of bubble gum. The images, for an 8-year-old, were so
Photos by John Morrow
58
dynamic, I had no idea what to do with them. I didn’t everyone’s like that.” Kirby was showing me—that’s the (previous page) The
read comics as a kid. I just tried to copy the pictures, but kind of future I liked Kirby showing me. A little afield of poster “Galactic Head” is
available with your
I did it terribly… That’s how I became an artist. [laughter] your question, but that was what made an impact on me. membership to the
Jack Kirby Museum:
DOUG HARVEY: Yeah, Jimmy Olsen. Me too. I probably HATFIELD: I can’t remember when I wasn’t reading www.kirbymuseum.org.
had seen Kirby’s work before. I read… I definitely read Kirby. I used to say that Kamandi, The Last Boy on Earth
(below) Page 5 pencils
Silver Surfer and Fantastic Four, but the first thing that hit #32, which was a double-sized issue, was the first one I from Jimmy Olsen #145
me consciously was when Kirby took over Jimmy Olsen. bought with my own money, my allowance money— (1972). This mag’s editor
It blew my mind because it was so strange. The clone of which I didn’t really earn, but my parents, bless them, thinks Angry Charlie is
Don Rickles [laughter], hippies living in trees, and flying gave me. Although I now realize I had a lot of Kirby Jack’s best monster
design ever, and worthy
cars, and so on and so on. It was like suddenly someone memories prior to that and I don’t know how that’s of his own book (by Mike
was doing something with comics that was a whole possible. For example, there’s a page in the exhibition Mignola, maybe?).
world beyond what was already going on. It just seemed from The Demon #14 which I can remember reading in
to open up… and then close down. [laughter] front of the television at my grandmother’s house. I
BEN SAUNDERS: I grew up in the U.K.,
so there was no access to American
comics, or it was irregular and haphaz-
ard. But there was our British Marvel
[magazines] and they were reprinting the
’60s stuff. So, I couldn’t tell you which
particular story it was, but it would’ve
been the Fantastic Four. The British
comics were cheaper and produced in
black-&-white, so my early memories of
Kirby—and I think this is important in
terms of my own connection to him—
were that I was seeing the work at a larger
size than the American comics, and
always without color. There was some-
thing about the handling of the ink that
made it very easy to fall into the page. So
that would be it. I was very young. I’m
thinking back to memories of Doctor Doom
stealing the Silver Surfer’s powers—those
kinds of stories. That’s probably my first
Kirby encounter that I can remember.
ADAM McGOVERN: I think I was con-
scious of Kirby before I was acquainted
with him. By which I mean, his style is so
pervasive that it was instantly recognizable,
and definitive of comics style. I remember,
only now—I have a memory for the first
time in like 46 years of envisioning a
comic that I wanted to do that I know
was patterned on the compositions of
Kirby. You know, some hero kicking in
the faces of some strangely arranged
colonnade of Nazis, this kind of weirdly
set up action. And I think… I’m not sure.
I must have become aware of who he
was—which guy was doing this stuff—
with the Fourth World. And the things
that stand out to me are, really, kind of
like a civic education. I’m a writer, so I
approach Kirby from a textual direction
and it was kind of like my civic education.
Like when Izaya talks about, “Where is
Izaya, the servant of those he leads?” You
know, all of [these] Nixon-era yearnings
for a truer democracy. Or, like when
Richard, I think it is, in “The Glory Boat”
says, “I’m a conscientious objector, I’m
opposed to all killing and violence,” and
Lightray says, “I know a place where
59
learned the word “doppelganger” from that page. [laughter] “Dopple-gang-er,” sounding it out. So it
seems like that stuff was always there, but became a particular passion of mine when I was old
enough to run around, riding my bike, to go buy comics at the age of 10, and it became sort of a
quartz vein in my head that stayed there from then on. Andrei?
ANDREI MOLOTIU: Actually I was hoping that Ben would rescue me from this because I seem to have
come in a little later than everyone else to Kirby. I grew up reading French comics, and only by coming
to America and only when I was about 18, 19, did I even deign to begin reading American comics
when The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen and all that came out. I realized, my God, everybody’s
right. Before that, maybe I had seen one issue of Spider-Man and thought, “What’s that compared to
French comics?” My path took me circuitous ways, and I think I truly only began to appreciate Kirby
at about age 30, or maybe a little later—my early thirties. So, I don’t know if I have a single memo-
ry… perhaps Sandman #1, which has that amazing silent page? [below] It has five panels and was
scripted by Joe Simon. Kirby rarely was that silent, but Simon wrote the silence for him. And five
beautiful silent panels, and all of a sudden that is what struck me as “this is what comics can be,” and it was amazing.
SCOTT BUKATMAN: It occurs to me
that, while this probably isn’t the first
instance of it, I’m now noticeably the
oldest guy on the panel. So my memo-
ries of Kirby go back a bit further. I was
buying the Fantastic Four back not only
in the 1960s, but around the #60s in the
run of the series. And I bought quite a
few comics at that time, as many as I
could afford—there weren’t as many
comics then—and most religiously I
bought the Fantastic Four and the Stan
Lee/John Romita Amazing Spider-Man
comics. At some point I became very
aware of the fact that I was constantly re-
reading the FFs in a way I was not re-
reading the Spider-Mans, as much as I
liked them. There wasn’t as much for me
on a second go-around on the Spider-
Mans, but there was always something
new in encountering the Kirby pages
again. There was something inex-
haustible about what was being opened
up there, and that’s been my primary
engagement from that time on.
A more specific memory: When I was
younger I went to comics conventions—
I don’t do that too much anymore—and
in my teens my father wanted to know
what they were about, so he came with
me. He was dumbfounded by the whole
experience, but there was a room where
Kirby was exhibiting some of his recent
DC work. This was just before The Demon
came out. And I was walking around the
room mesmerized by the artwork, but
my father and Kirby, who were the same
age, began telling war stories to each
other. I don’t remember any specific
stories that they told. But Kirby was so
happy to have a grown-up in the room.
[laughter] I felt so glad that I could’ve
provided that experience by proxy.
[laughter and applause]
HATFIELD: So, I want to pitch a question
and start with you first, Andrei, given
the fact that your writing has been inspi-
rational for the question—but I want to
take the question to everyone.
60
 From the point of view of the curator putting this make. If you’ve ever seen a Michelangelo drawing in a
show together, there’s always been this tug-of-war museum, that was “production art.” People did not
between the comic book as a kind of hand-sized or inti- begin appreciating drawings in their own right until the (previous page, bottom)
The “silent” page from
mate object—an object designed for reading—and late 17th/early 18th century when people began collect- Sandman #1 (1974).
comic art, as something that can fill a gallery and that ing them. Actually, literally the collector market—the
(previous page, top) This
can shape or define a gallery space, that can be spectac- same as the collector market in original comic art—had mag’s editor also learned
ular. That can be on the walls, that seems to get a a lot to do with that. And we can discuss the historical the word “Doppelganger”
different kind of attention. You walk through a gallery; transformation, but it does begin transforming. I think from Jack’s Demon.
you may pay a different kind of attention than you we are at a point where what once was considered to be Wonder how many
other kids out there did
would if the 7" x 10" comic book, for example, were in purely production art, as we know it—by it being given likewise?
your hands. So, we’re really dealing in our exhibition away or [discarded] in the production process or storage
with work that was designed for comic books or comic process and so on—begins bringing in a lot of money.
(above) Jack’s story-
strips. The great majority of pieces across the street in Of course, when something starts bringing in a lot of boards for the Fantastic
the exhibition were made for that purpose, so it’s money, it becomes much more valued. But there are a Four 1978 cartoon
production art. It’s not art that was primarily made for lot of other considerations. For example, there are more episode “Menace of
exhibition. It’s production art, and there’s some debate and more museum shows of comics. As comics are get- Magneto.” These are
over what that means when you take production art ting respectability, and therefore cultural institutions technically production art,
since animators would
and sort of wrench it from its original purpose or are taking notice and wanting to put on shows, a piece take these and only use
context and transpose it into a different context. So, of comics art—a one-and-a-half or especially a twice-up them as a guide when
I’ve thought about that productive tension between of comic art—tends to have a wall presence that a creating the final, more
spectacle, or what I hope will be a spectacular gallery comic book doesn’t have. And also you have sort of the simplified cels that made
the animation move.
experience, and the readability of comics. And that’s a autographed hand of the artist, or at least the inker, on
question we face increasingly as comic strip and comic there, and therefore you can somehow relate to that And Jack didn’t spend as
much time on these as
book art finds its way into galleries and into museums, work of art as if seeing the motion of the hand, rather on his normal comics
the way it hasn’t before. Now Andrei, you have written than seeing it reduced in the printed comic. But I think pages—but he spent
about this more often and more productively I think from that point of view, in my mind, you end up focus- more time than he did
than other scholars of late, and Andrei has an essay ing so much more on the visual and not seeing the cre- when doing only layouts
for other Marvel artists to
entitled “Permanent Ink” that’s available online that ation of the comic as a consumable thing that provides finish in the 1960s. Does
really speaks to these issues.* What is gained, and/or a little quantum of merit, and then you move onto the that make one any more
lost, by transposing comic books from the readable next one, and the next one. In a way, it forces you to or less “art” than the
hand-sized form to the gallery wall? stand there and look at it. I was trying to read the comics others?
in the gallery, and it’s much harder to read a comic on At TJKC, we feel that if
MOLOTIU: Well, I’ve written about this so much and Jack’s hand touched the
the wall than to actually read it again in printed form.
thought about it so much, I’ll be very brief so that other work, it’s art—and it’s
And the last thing I was going to say is that, currently, all good. Comments,
people can talk about this. But two points I want to

* http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/2010/10/permanent-
there are more and more alternative and art comics readers?
creators who basically create as much for the wall as for
ink-by-andrei-molotiu/ the book. So I think that it goes hand-in-hand with this,
61
you know. Gary Panter, the people at
Fort Thunder, and so on. You know, “The Evil Gene Machine,” usage unknown.
Paper Rad [the art collective], who are From the early 1980s.
creating comics with the intent of
them being as much “museum
comics”— “gallery comics”—as of
them being book comics. From this
point of view, comics is going
[through] yet another transformation,
same ways as maybe it went with the
graphic novel.
HATFIELD: Doug and Steve, I’d like
to toss this question over in your
direction, given your experience, and
then we’ll have other people field the
question as well.
RODEN: For me, it’s a tough question.
I think, you know, we are all talking
about this as original art, or production
art. [Should we be] calling it “produc-
tion junk” or “production stuff?” But
they’re things that were drawn by
human beings. Sure, seeing a single panel on a wall is not the same and you have pages pulled from here and there, grouped together
as reading/seeing a complete story. But as a visual object these pages thematically, it allows you to shift your attention to the art rather
can offer multiple stories or meanings. than the narrative. Because I find reading comics, I often overlook
Certainly you’ll have questions while you experience a lot of the art. Even though I’m primarily a visual person, I’ll get sucked
unbelievable views of the world, language, architecture... I mean, into the story and sort of jump ahead without appreciating the sub-
there is just so much going on in these things that they don’t seem to tleties of the artwork. I think that putting it in this kind of context
be anything but art… I collect comic art, so obviously I’m invested in where, except for that Kamandi story, everything else is pretty much
these objects, but they are also meaningful on their own. Like I said, chopped up…
I didn’t read comics when I was a kid. So, obviously, even a single HATFIELD: We have two complete stories in the show. That might
page evoked a lot of visual experiences...! be me, the English professor who wants to encourage reading.
HATFIELD: Would you say that the gazing came before the reading [laughter] Although I myself can’t read those stories in the gallery
for you? without my feet hurting, because it takes so long to stand and read
them. But I wanted them to be there, so…
RODEN: Absolutely. I didn’t know much about comics when I was Ben has curated several comic art shows at the University of
reading them as a kid, and I didn’t know there were different inkers. Oregon. He’s curating one on EC Comics now. He’s also an English
I didn’t know why certain characters looked different in different prof like me but has curatorial experience that I lean on very heavily.
books in different people’s hands. It’s kind of a mess in a way for a Ben?
kid. Like, Silver Surfer... [seeing] Kirby’s Silver Surfer and then see-
ing John Buscema’s Silver Surfer. They look so different. Who did SAUNDERS: I think one of the interesting things about your question
this? Why is this like this? I didn’t know any of that stuff until I was is that there is this tension between looking and reading inherent in
probably in my thirties—when I went back to childhood books and the form. So it becomes aggravated by the gallery circumstance. But
realized who the artists were that I responded to as a child. I am a actually, and this is a point that in some respects I owe to Scott’s
person who has collected junk my entire life, and the value of some- work on Hellboy—a book I would recommend to everybody—one of
thing is the relationship I have with that object. I don’t want to be the things that Scott points out in that book is when you see… you
hoity-toity, but [Walter] Benjamin talks about book collecting in actually pointed this out in a lecture, where you had a comparison
that way, when he talks about the owner of an object having a deep between a Hellboy battle scene and then a sequence from one of the
relationship to that object. He says that a person lives in the object, movies. And the point was not to say the movies were not as good,
and you know that relationship’s tight. So when I pull out some of but that they do… comics are essentially about tableau. Even when
this art and look at it, I notice different things every time. you’re looking at a very dramatic action scene—you might be look-
You know, we don’t want to get into a definition of “art.” ing at one of these double-page Kirby spreads, or even a single-page
Maybe Doug does [laughter], but I’m not going to touch that. But I spread like the opening of New Gods, which is in this show—you’re
don’t see the difference. These are things that people made. Either looking at these massed ranks of armies that are about to engage in
you like what they made or you don’t. They resonate or they don’t. extraordinary battle. But if you turn the page too quickly to find out
You know, they’re objects, and you have to have some kind of rela- what is happening next, in some ways… Kirby wants you to stop,
tionship with them in some way. It’s not just nostalgia. I have pages even at moments of high action, to absorb the action. I think it’s
from books I never read; whatever hits you, just like music. something unique about the form. It’s one of the things I really love
about the form, and it’s why—I’ve got nothing against superhero
HARVEY: [To Roden] I like your last point on having pages from movies for example, but it’s why I’d rather read comics than go to
books you haven’t read. I really don’t like shows of text on the wall. I see films a lot of the time. Because the experience is different. Action
don’t like [poster artist] Raymond Pettibon shows, comic art happens in a different kind of way. It’s the temporal unfolding. I
shows… I mean, I like them, but I’d rather read a comic book than think the gallery experience can actually show us that, and teach us
see the art on a wall. But I think when the narrative gets fragmented something about what it means to read comics. We can learn that
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when we read comics, we’re not looking a lot of the time because of blown up like the [gallery] murals are.
the way we’re being dragged through the narrative.
Another piece about this—I just have to say this because it BUKATMAN: I think everybody on the panel has made really good
makes me mad—I think it’s really a crime that it’s taken this long for points. What I want to talk about touches on a number of them.
someone like Kirby to get the due that he’s finally getting, and One thing you might get from the gallery wall and the original art-
there’s a lot more work that could be done and an awful lot more cel- work is a sense of size and scale. Kirby drew big things. And to see
ebration that could be done. And this person gave us not only a visual the artwork at its original size is a little more overwhelming, more
storytelling vocabulary that has influenced hundreds of people, but striking. In working on the Hellboy book, the question I asked myself
he gave us what is a version of the 21st Century imagination. You was, “Can comics do the sublime?” Large-scale paintings by Church
can’t walk into Walmart without finding Kirby images embossed on or Turner do the sublime really well—the overwhelming power of
every imaginable surface. This isn’t going to go away, folks. This nature on a museum wall. Cinema does the sublime really well. 2001
stuff that mattered to people who read the comics—maybe these and Pacific Rim do the sublime quite well. Comics though, to use
comics weren’t even selling that well, like Fourth World in the Adam’s word, are an intimate medium. You hold them in your
’70s—the things you’re exposed to when you’re five, we’ve got a hands. They don’t seem to have that power to overwhelm that other
whole generation that is now being exposed to this stuff on a daily media do. But the bottom line is that my first experience of the
basis in a different format and they are going to want to know about sublime was Jack Kirby—the Fantastic Four and Thor comics where
the source. And they’re going to realize the source for much of this is concepts like “Ego, The Living Planet” and “Negative Zone” and
Jack. I think this is just the beginning, and if the big museums in the “The Inhumans” were being unleashed on me, not to mention those
culture had invested in comic art a long time ago, there would have photo collages where we go into another dimension and another
already have been a Kirby show at the MOMA. But because they realm of representation. Charles has written beautifully about the
don’t own any of this stuff themselves—these institutions are subject matter of Kirby’s work and how it ties into the technological
frankly too corrupt to invest in artists they don’t own. So, good for sublime, but it’s also in the form: the way that Kirby would move
university museums. [applause] from a six-panel page to a three-panel page to a full page to a double-
page, and just really use the fixed scale of the comic, but vary the
HARVEY: I just want to add that I think that what you are saying is size of the panels in a way that opened up onto larger experience. So
more an indictment of the art world and its claim to having some comics create a really unique experience of intimate sublimity. Not
kind of authority to validate what Jack Kirby did, or any comic all do, but when the sublime is being deployed, it’s a very intimate
artist. It doesn’t really carry through that way, and it’s kind of an sublimity and quite unique. So there’s something to seeing the art
indication of the waning legitimacy of art world institutions rather on a wall when it has breathing room and appears outside of its
than their taking time to catch up. I don’t think there’s any catching narrative context. But then there’s also that extraordinary experience
up to do. That’s on its way out as a model of validating art. of reading. I’m very fond of both experiences.
McGOVERN: I, like perhaps many of us—at least who got hand-me- MOLOTIU: Can I say something on this? Just one or two comments
down comics from older siblings—I “read” comics as visuals before I about this. One, it struck me from what Scott said, it’s true that you
had the ability to read text. And I remember imposing narrative and
extracting meaning from, specifically, Kirby comics: Captain
Americas, Thors. Even today—certainly Ben raises a great example of
the opening panel of the New Gods where—and there’s some artists
today that I’ll do this with as well, like when Erik Larsen did a
recent issue of Savage Dragon that was all in double-page
spreads—and there was not a lot of text, but I found my eye
reading the details of the imagery because it was packed with
incident. Yet there’s kind of like a wavering partition for me
between that looking and watching and the reading and
watching. Interestingly enough, I find that for the sto-
ries that are complete in the gallery, I’m just picking out
little details and phrases, like the Kamandi thing: there’s
this great scene where he’s beating up this gladiatorial
foe, and he goes—instead of cursing at him—he’s going,
“Stupid! Arrogant! Pampered, brutal little tyrant!”
Which of course is all of Kirby’s rage at the people who 1960s fanzine
abused and exploited him, or who would not see him illo.
fulfilled—in the same way that people like Lichtenstein would
just extract single definitive statements from comics. You
know, the way that certain slogans or ideas will stick in our
consciousness out of the stream of media.
To me, comics, even when I’m reading them in my hand, that
kind of Pop Art headline is what sticks in my mind. I was quoting
some of them in my previous answer. And the monumentality—I
don’t know. I think that intimacy places you in the scale of the
monumental. I mean, when you’re holding a comic in your hand it’s
filling up the world. You’re immersed in it. And of course the trend
in entertainment is [toward] smaller and smaller frames for things.
So I don’t think things are necessarily lost or gained because… I’m
kind of reliving the monumental experience I felt from a Kirby
panorama, whether I see it as a tiny panel in a page on the wall or
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need a kind of size [for the sublime], but another
place we got the sublime from in the Romantic
period was poetry. And again, poetry was found in
tiny books in your hand.
BUKATMAN: [snaps fingers] Damn. Now I’ll have to
go back and edit my book.
MOLOTIU: [laughter] Sorry. [laughter] But secondly,
I was trying to read the two stories on the wall. I was
able to get through the Kamandi pretty well, but I
was not able to get through the Thor one. And that
had to do a lot with Stan Lee’s words, which were so
many of them on the page. And what struck me is
that Kirby—even when he writes—he writes, so to
speak, visually. I don’t know that this makes sense,
but somehow his words are of a piece with the visual
progression of the comic itself. And while there’s
kind of a separation when reading the Fantastic Four
or Thor or whatever, and you actually try to read the
heavy captions—I counted one panel had twelve
balloons—and you try to get all through that, and it
really slows you down. Kirby usually uses fewer
words, especially in the word balloons, and actually
you get the speed of really going through the panels.
And somehow, because you’re moving so much
faster, it almost becomes animated. You sort of see
one visual composition where there’s another visual
composition, and so on, proceeding in the context
of the page. And you have a very different graphic
reading experience, in reading things that Kirby
wrote and drew himself, rather than things he drew
but were scripted or had dialogue by someone else.
HATFIELD: The way I would put this is that Kirby
might draw up a story on the boards and have a
character like Thor say, “Let’s go!” and the end
comic might say something like, “Tarry we here no
longer, but let us leave forthwith!” [laughter] And
that’s cool in a way, but it also thickens the reading
experience. I mean, one thing that’s implicit in the
exhibition, because there’s a complete story from
Thor in 1968 and then there’s a complete story from
the Kamandi series about five years later, is you can
see how those different comics were produced. Thor
was produced at Marvel through the office and
under the editorship of Stan Lee, through a process that involved there being a visual character to Kirby’s writing. And it really is true.
many more hands getting on the work, whereas Kamandi was pro- It’s an aestheticized text in, of course, his infamous overuse of quota-
duced in a relatively streamlined manner. And if you get a chance, tion marks—hyphens—you know, he’s wrestling with how to
look at those pages and compare and contrast them, see how much describe things, which he’s only becoming aware of himself—these
marginalia and how much, kind of, “dirt” there is “under the finger- kind of fifth-dimensional concepts. And even with the deployment
nails” of the Thor pages and the Marvel comics and how many hands of text; the way that all of the Fourth World stuff and Kamandi chap-
have touched those, and then compare them to some of the ones ters would start with this, you know, floating text over the first
that, as Andrei mentioned, were more nearly written or entirely panel, like this kind of proscenium for the story. [Editor’s Note: See
written by Kirby himself. It’s not to denigrate one or elevate the example above from Kamandi #6.] But I also think Kirby was attempt-
other, but they were made in different ways. You kind of see this in ing the sublime in this kind of wording too, because he was grap-
the exhibition. pling with a language for something we have no way to process yet.

BUKATMAN: I have a rejoinder to Andrei. It took me a couple of HATFIELD: Adam, read this. This is from the opening first page of
minutes to think of it. [laughter] Yeah, poetry and the sublime. Yes, New Gods #1. It’s the start of Doug’s essay in the catalog. Just read
check. But the language in comics rarely aspires to sublimity, to the that.
evocation of the sublime, whereas the visual imagery of comics often McGOVERN: “There came a time when the old gods died. The brave
does. I think it’s on the visual level that comics most often aspire to died with the cunning. The noble perished, locked in battle with
the sublime. And one would think they might be hampered by their unleashed evil. It was the last day for them. An ancient era was pass-
size and limitation of scale, and yet, as I was saying… [laughter] ing in fiery holocaust.”
McGOVERN: I much appreciated what Andrei was saying about HATFIELD: Thank you. Great stuff I think.
64
McGOVERN: And, it’s the first page and it starts with “Epilogue,” a whole history of people doing secondary work that at times is just
which I always loved. [laughter] as interesting, if not more so, than their primary practice. So, I was
just completely obsessed with them when I first discovered them. I
HATFIELD: Yeah. It’s a comic that begins with the word “epilogue”
think they’re really underrated.
and then everything moves forward from there. [To Scott:] I want to
go onto something you mentioned specifically, and it’s one of the HATFIELD: We actually have, I think, the last collage that was pub-
things we’re fortunate to have in the exhibition. We do have five of lished in a comic book in Kirby’s lifetime in the show [from The
these collages that Jack Kirby created. Scott has written about them Hunger Dogs] because Steve loaned it to us. So, you should check that
eloquently in the catalog. Steve and I have discussed them at length, out. [applause] Scott, you want to pick that up?
because [to Steve] you’re a collector and great admirer of those. I
BUKATMAN: Just quickly about the collages. First of all, one of the
was asked by an interviewer if the collages were just a sideshow to
reasons you might not have noticed them, reading them in the
the main event, or if I saw something really that was crucial in those.
books, is because they were so badly printed. For me as a kid, these
We have five collages on the wall. Four of them are actually, once
were the pages to sort of… muddle through rather than the ones that
again, production art. That is, they were used for comic books. One
really hit. However, when better reproduction came along—or when
of them is a piece that’s never seen publication anywhere, and I was
I saw photographs of the original art—that’s when they really blew
given to understand that Jack Kirby made a lot of these at home in
me away. Then you begin to realize how often, especially in the ’70s,
his, what, “copious” spare time? [laughter] Drawing and writing 80
he was using it to represent worlds beyond our own and dimensions
to 100 pages of comic book narrative a month was not enough? But
beyond our own. And what’s fascinating about that is in his 2001
he kept a morgue file of clippings around, and as gifts to family or as
[Treasury Edition]—which I liked immediately because it was big-
exercises for himself, he made these things, unbelievably, while he
ger, so it was more immersive—in that one he uses photo collage in
was not working for pay. And I hope that you’ve had a chance to
the most banal ways to just put the staid photographs of the various
look at those or will look at them this afternoon.
But starting over there with you Steve, I wanted
to ask you, what you glean from those—what
kind of affinities to other artists, or inspirational
elements, do you see in those? Or why those are
particularly fascinating. I don’t see them as a
sideshow; I see them as somehow central, but I’m
at pains to explain why.
RODEN: Because they seem to test the visual lan-
guage of the book. You turn the page, and sud-
denly everything isn’t made up of lines anymore.
It’s made up of images. I didn’t remember seeing
those as a kid, but maybe about five years ago I
started to look at some of my childhood comic
books and looking at stuff on the Internet and I
found an image of one of Jack’s collages and I was
like—well, if I wasn’t in this group of people I’d
say something else, but “Holy cow!” right? And I
didn’t remember them, and I hadn’t heard any-
one talking about them. I didn’t know they exist-
ed. And so I found an image on the Internet, and
then I began to look into the history of the col-
lages and the books. You know some of them
were pretty early, and they just got me really
excited. I’m really interested in artists who
stray—who have a central kind of practice that
moves around... well, I’m a painter, but I also
work with sound, I collect stuff. I’ve done all
kinds of different things and I think to see some-
one like Jack stepping away from what his audi-
ence knew… My discovery of these experiments
meant a lot. And he was such an experimental
draftsman, and then to see him experimenting... I
mean the collages are very complex and there are
tons of little pieces and bits of things, and I think
the idea of him trying to integrate those into the
books is so interesting, because you can’t really
talk about them as just frivolous things [as some
have said] he made on Sundays in his studio.
That is bunk, since he tried many times to insert
them into his narratives. For me, I had never real-
ly seen anything so unconventional in a regular
comic. And so, I think they’re incredible. I mean,
Victor Hugo made drawings with tea, and there’s Rather than use collage, Jack actually drew the pivotal special effects scene in his 1976 adaptation of 2001.
65
spaceships together. But in the “Beyond
the Infinite” sequence of the film, where
Doug Trumbull’s special effects sort of
take us out of the realm of representa-
tion, Kirby lets loose in drawing. He uses
his drawing as the mode of entry into
another dimension, rather than a col-
lage, in that work. He inverts his own
strategy. It just intrigued me.
HARVEY: I just wanted to throw a couple
of ideas out, one about “the sublime,”
just to reactivate that. Illuminated manu-
scripts and Kirby’s horror vacui show that
the sublime can come from small, intri-
cate, dense information networks, if you
shift your attention so it becomes a larger
space through contemplative attention.
And I also think there’s something sort
of fundamentally collage-y about Kirby’s
entire approach to writing and drawing,
as well as doing collages. I think what
you’re saying, Andrei, about his language
being visual, I think backs that up. There’s
sort of a discontinuity where Stan Lee is
very discursive and [jabs finger emphati-
cally] sort of “on it” and… [makes droning
jabbering noise]. Kirby sometimes seems
to shift tense and I don’t know what the
hell he’s talking about [laughter], but it
doesn’t matter. And then on another
level with the pastiches he gets into in
this period, pulling together Planet of the
Apes and all these other different cultural
references and things is sort of, I think, a
way of understanding storytelling and
visual art and communication that’s
rooted in, sort of, the collage revolution
in the 20th century.
HATFIELD: I’ve always had this impulse
to refer to it as Postmodern, because
people say that, but it seems almost like
a violation of the spirit to apply that
word—which Kirby doesn’t need for our
appreciation, but yet, he’s like the mix
master par excellence. He’s here, there and
everywhere.
MOLOTIU: If I may make one quick point
about that. In my article in the catalog I
talk about a drawing by Kirby, but if you
actually look at the drawing itself—I mean, we think of Kirbytech, up with is very productive. I think Kirby’s just… he’s associative
which basically looks like circuit boards. Almost as if those had been creatively in a Shakespearean way. By which I mean the gift is enor-
drawn and collaged into it. There are parts of his interesting build- mous but I think it’s very instinctive. And I don’t mean that in a…
ings that look basically taken from blinds, like window blinds. Kirby gets patronized a lot by people who ought to know better. I
[laughter] And there are shadows which you can see look like recently read a comment from Art Spiegelman where he said that he
Holstein cow markings. You can kind of see, cut down, the various was finally starting to appreciate Kirby’s “primitivism,” or some-
little elements that he’s using, and the little bit of collage element to thing like that. This is a belated acknowledgment that maybe there’s
the way he actually builds cities and machines and so on. Which something there, even if “that idiot didn’t know what he was doing.”
again, you sort of see it in the collages, where he basically takes a [light laughter] And I don’t mean it that way. I don’t mean Kirby isn’t
washing machine or something and that becomes a propeller or a jet a thoughtful creator. I think he is, but I don’t think theory particu-
on a spaceship or something. You kind of see the same procedure in larly interested him because he’s driven by other forces. A lot of the
the actual drawings. time he would probably define it commercially…

SAUNDERS: I just think the collage analogy that Doug was coming BUKATMAN: Driven by deadlines.

66
SAUNDERS: Yes. The desire to make money to feed people. Clearly fake newspaper look, and it’s Kirby reaching into the broader world
that’s a cover story after a while. The amount of pages he’s produc- of media and our visual and conceptual experience of those times—
ing… There’s a way in which his foot has been on the gas for so long like they’ve fallen into a universe of Kirby’s cut-up magazines.
that he doesn’t know how to let it up. When you read something like
Kamandi and you see that there’s sort of a Planet of the Apes knock- MOLOTIU: Why did he never do a collage comic from beginning to
off, but then he decides, “Oh, this week I’m just going to do the story end?
of King Kong. Except it’s not really the story of King Kong, because the HATFIELD: Mark Evanier tells us the Negative Zone, which is a plot
person in the Fay Wray position is actually going to be Kamandi. But point in the Fantastic Four series, was conceived with this in mind.
I’m not really going to think about what it means to flip the gender Initially, the idea behind the Negative Zone was that it would only
here, I’m just going to do it and see what happens.” And then at the ever be rendered in collage. That idea lasted for about one page—
end, is it funny or is it pastiche by the end when the big ape falls? [laughter] a beautiful page, right?—because the production standards
’Cause there’s no way it’s a surprise. You know you’re reading King of comic books, or just the production line at Marvel, could not tol-
Kong by three pages in. But when the ape falls and says— erate this, but he at one time had a notion that he would have whole
HATFIELD: “Tiny hurt.” [laughter] sequences, stories or chapters that would be set in this… I mean the
usual answer given was that it was just too hard production-wise.
SAUNDERS: “I hurt,” and “can’t play—with—you—no more,” and
you feel it here. I don’t take the Shakespeare comparison lightly. I MOLOTIU: And was it more time consuming for him to do a collage
think there are ways in which… You don’t have to work with the con- page than doing a drawing page?
scious intent to super-saturate the thing that you are doing with all HATFIELD: I know a lot of people when I was young viewed these as
of these symbolic meanings, for them to be there. They end up being “cheats.” Like he didn’t have to draw a page. That’s seems silly to
there anyway. Just because the creative process is—because the me. I had an experience walking through the gallery with one of our
faucet was just open and the culture is coming out. And Kirby’s painting instructors here at CSUN who had seen some of the work
influences just come out. The experiences come out in this fantastical, when he was young. Someone who practices abstract painting,
very genre-driven, still maybe kind of a children’s medium, way. teaches it, and he was sort of reconnecting—or just learning what
There’s nothing else like it. So it’s endlessly fascinating and I think this stuff looked like—and we walked through the gallery together.
collage is actually a pretty good metaphor for it. He really looked at the collages particularly and said, “Oh, his visual
McGOVERN: Speaking of intuition and the sheer pleasure and won- language is the same in the collages as in the drawings”; something,
der of these things, when those collages were being done, I was too frankly, difficult for me to see, because I’ve been reading the comics
young to be dropping acid, so they were my psychedelia. [laughter] for so long. I said, “Yeah, you’re right.” And he said, “What, did he
Mind-blowing, strange things that I associated with things like spend all of his time in this sort of visual world in his own head?” I
sequences in Yellow Submarine and stuff like that. I know it’s not said, “Yes. He did. [laughter] I think he did.” We usually hear the pro-
uncommon to say that Kirby was anticipating Photoshop, and like, duction impediments were the problem there. I always thought they
“Oh, what would he looked cool myself, in the comics.
have done with it?”
The collages clearly
show him straining
against the expressive
limits of his medi-
um—though there’s
something about those
limitations that I find
really illuminating. I
mean the flatness with
which things are
applied is almost like
the best we can see
something from a
higher dimension.
Thus, it speaks to
Kirby’s sense of there
being other realities
and just the way… now
that I think back, I
really liked coming
upon those because
they’d have these
weird pastels. Even
some of the printing
flaws that we were
talking about seemed
to aid that. The fact
that you’re flung from
this four-color uni-
verse to this weird, (previous page) Kamandi #7 pencils (1973). (above) Much better collage reproduction was possible by 1983’s Captain Victory Special #1.

67
 I want to divert to a different issue. I had a delight- excited me.” But it made me think about the various
(below) From Forever ful experience a few weeks ago when one of the CSUN claims people make about Kirby—his biographers and
People #7 (1972), the Arts Council volunteers here started following me his fans. For some, he’s an eternal optimist. He’s sort of
young still respect their around the gallery. Two of my colleagues had come an always sunlit kind of personality, because hope is
elders—in this case, Abe
Lincoln. But were Mark
in—folks that I knew from my college—and I was part of what he deals in. I don’t know that I necessarily
Moonrider and Beautiful showing them around some of the work, and one of our read the comics that way, and I wonder if among the
Dreamer on their way to volunteer docents from the Arts Council, whom we had kind of works we pulled into the gallery—if any of you
save him when the police been speaking to earlier in the day, said, “Is this a guid- have a “read” or response to that. Is he Utopian?
stepped in? ed tour?” and joined in. I had the longest conversation Dystopian? Is there a vast yawning darkness under your
(next page) Jack finally with her. She said she had never seen comics of this feet when you read them? Is there a brightness? Do any
found a way for fish-out-
of-water Flippa Dippa to
type. She had no knowledge of comic books. She was of you have thoughts on that?
use his scuba skills, in encountering this work for the first time, and she said
MOLOTIU: [chuckles] I just heard Glen Gold talk about
Jimmy Olsen #144 (1971). to me—with reference to one or two or more images in
this in the gallery, so… [points to crowd].
the gallery—“He’s really drawn to the dark side, no?”
[laughter] And I thought, “Yeah, but let me show you HATFIELD: Glen—yes? [Glen is in the audience; greetings
this touching page with a baby over on the other wall.” are exchanged.] Glen David Gold: novelist, catalog con-
She asked me, “Does it not depress you?” I said, “Well, tributor, and lender to the show. A big help. Thank you,
no. And it didn’t when I was ten years old either. It Glen. [applause]
GLEN DAVID GOLD: [from audience] My own
feelings about Kirby, optimism or pessimism, is
that I think they are flip sides of the same coin.
I think it depends on… The essay I wrote in
there is called “The Red Sheet.” It’s about his
World War II experiences and about how he
brought Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder to
Captain America. The original essay I wrote was
way too long. For the first time in my life, I cut
something down. At one point in World War II,
he talks about when he came out at Omaha
Beach, that’s when he understood that there was
a God. And then later in the same war, he
understood there was no God. So it was as if it
was the flip side of violence, and one side was
affirmation to him of there being some sort of
guiding light, and at the same time, other types
of violence made him think there was none. So I
think actually what he was, was a fully-rounded,
mature person who understood that sometimes
there was cause for optimism and sometimes
causes for extreme pessimism.
McGOVERN: I think he almost had a kind of
Buddhist understanding of, like, destruction
being necessary for regeneration. He deals so
much with youth and affirming the youth culture
of the times in books like The Forever People. I
know there is this one opening sequence, in
Forever People #7, where this council of juniors is
appealing to Highfather to reverse some deci-
sion of his, and the caption says that on New
Genesis, “the young have a voice.” So he’s very
much endorsing the 18-year-old vote and other
opportunities for participation in society for
youth. And I think he really saw… it was a gen-
erational story, the Fourth World. He saw those
who came after him as the ones who could
benefit from what he had fought for. Kind of… I
don’t want to go so seriously as to liken it to in
[Spiegelman’s] Maus where Artie’s shrink tells
him that he’s the true survivor, not Vladek, but
I think Kirby had that conception that he had
fought up to a certain level and there were others
who would enjoy the fruits of this. So he was
kind of entropic in conceiving of his own fate,
but optimistic for subsequent generations.
68
 one or the other, I think is really at the core
of at least his most interesting characters, if
not a whole cosmology.
HARVEY: Maybe George Lucas’s whole
cosmology. [laughter from the panel]
McGOVERN: Actually I’d like to add one
thing too. People oversimplify the Fourth
World as being, quote, “about Good and
Evil.” Even Doug Wolk has done this. But it
was really about Control versus Free Will,
and Free Will can lead to a lot of mistakes
and itself can lead to evil, but Kirby had the
nuanced perspective of people having the
choice and hopefully making the right one.
HATFIELD: Shall we entertain some questions
from the people who are here? [to audience
member] Yes, please.
WOMAN IN AUDIENCE: You’re talking about
whether or not Kirby is an optimist or pes-
simist. Could another word for him be
“potentialist”? For example, he tends to lean
both towards the pessimistic and the opti-
mistic, showing what a better world could be
like and also showing how others perceive
the natural world to be currently. So would it
be accurate to suggest that maybe he’s demon-
strating potentials for one side or the other?
McGOVERN: I like that a lot, because so
much of what he was doing in the ’70s was a
critique of the society he saw around him. I
mean Mark Evanier, his biographer, has
talked about how people would say, “Who is
Darkseid?” and he would say, “Well, it would
vary. Sometimes he was Nixon, sometimes
he was Martin Goodman,” [laughter] or what-
ever was scarier. But clearly there is always
an implication of what could be better. Like
when Lightray says he knows a place where
everyone is non-violent. New Genesis was
always put up as the example of what we
should be, and more subtly, of course, he
had “The World That’s Coming” in OMAC,
which was ostensibly very sleek and cool, but
is actually completely cold—something that
he was afraid of. That’s probably where he
HATFIELD: Do you remember this bit where Highfather—he’s kind thought we were going, and New Genesis probably where he felt we
of a Moses-like patriarch—and he tells Orion, the fierce warrior, should be going, but the kernel was there. I agree with you.
before they have sort of a war council, or before they talk about serious
matters, he says, “First, Orion, we bow to the young.” They sort of HATFIELD: Others? A response to that question, or…? José?
bow to this group of children that are there; “We bow to the young JOSÉ ALANIZ [from audience]: I came very late to Kirby. In fact it was
because they represent the future.” And then the plot moves on from work that really didn’t speak to me as a kid and I kind of pondered
there, but it’s a very telling moment. Anyone else have thoughts in why that is, and this has been illuminating. But I’m curious as to how
response to Glen or to the question? you guys feel about Kirby’s engagement with his own times, particu-
BUKATMAN: I just want to footnote Glen’s point, which is a really larly that period in the ’70s. You’ve referenced some of this, but in
good one. But to say that Kirby also didn’t polarize good and evil— particular his treatment—maybe utopian, maybe dystopian—of
it wasn’t like a Manichean dichotomy that just was inviolate. In the diversity. For example, Ben, you alluded to kind of doing a trans-
New Gods saga, which we have been referencing a lot today for obvious gender move without pursuing its logical ends in some sense. In
reasons, if you’ve read it, the main character Orion is the son of the particular, his treatment of racialized kind of types and how there’s
darkest villain in all of Comicdom. But he is living among the peace- this wonderful kind of sense of how Kirby is very much ahead of his
ful people, and Mister Miracle, the hero of another book, is the son time, but there’s also these weird retrograde kind of elements in
of the good, Utopian society who was forced to grow up in this Vykin The Black or Flippa Dippa and stuff like that. I’m fascinated
dystopia. So this sense of crossing over, of things not being purely by what you guys think about that side of Kirby in the ’70s. Was this
69
a place that’s maybe more open to a critique? that he had a deep investment and interest in the experience of being,
or being made to feel, marginal. I think that his own deep conflicts
HATFIELD: There’s a character in the Fourth World [named] Sonny
around this are apparent in his own renaming himself. Joe Simon
Sumo, and he’s sort of a badly orange-colored Asian brickhouse of a
tells this story about confronting him with “Jack Kirby” as a name,
man. He is a Sumo wrestler and he really is built like a house. On
saying, “Are you ashamed to be identified as Jewish?” And Kirby,
one hand, this is a complete cliché, right? “Sonny Sumo”—Kirby
almost not understanding, is saying, “What? You don’t like ‘Jack
decides to introduce an “Asian” character. On the other hand, there’s
Kirby’ as a name?” And not getting it. And then you read about…
something cosmic and sort of beyond comprehension about Sonny
The more I learn about his life, what I see—especially the relation-
Sumo. He’s got a cosmic secret in his brain. He’s a character of great
ship with Joe Simon is a very clear version of it—is this is a man who
nobility. He’s a character that’s got inside him whatever it is that the
consistently did not recognize his own worth. Kirby, consistently
bad guy, Darkseid, wants. But Sonny himself is really like an undi-
throughout his whole career, was underpaid and felt like he needed
luted vision of the good, and to me that’s sort of the textbook exam-
someone like Joe in the early days to sort of negotiate the business
ple of that—when a character seems at first blush maybe even a little
angle of things, because he just wanted to get down to the business
embarrassing, or a very dated kind of character, but there’s a sense
of drawing. He bristled at the suggestion that he had changed his
that this character is bearing around inside him something larger
name because of some embarrassment over his own Jewishness, but
than everybody else. It’s kind of hard to describe unless you read
he changed his name. Because there is a—there was a sense in which
those comics. So realism’s got nothing to do with it, but there’s a
“Jack Kirby” could do anything. Jacob Kurtzberg, I don’t know that
sense in which Kirby’s trying to exalt this character, and if he had his
he can do what “Jack Kirby” can do. There’s a Woody Allen line from
druthers or if there had been an opening in the schedule or if DC
one of the later, well, one of the middle period movies now. A char-
had asked, he would have cooked up a Sonny Sumo comic book. This
acter accuses him of being a self-hating Jew and he says, “Don’t say
is kind of how the Black Panther originates—the same kind of spon-
that! I hate myself, but not because I’m Jewish.” [laughter] And I
taneous response to the times. Anyone else on that question?
think that there’s an aspect of that in Kirby’s own personality. That
McGOVERN: Yeah, Kirby I think of as definitely transitional, but he Kirby absolutely was not at all ashamed of his Jewishness, but he
went further than a lot of comic creators of his generation. I mean, was nonetheless, at some level, ashamed of who he… he felt worried
he was vocally remorseful about stereotypes that he didn’t measure up.
that he participated in in Golden Age comics
HATFIELD: Well, it was a class
in ways that it took Will Eisner, supposedly
thing, right?
much more sophisticated, decades longer to
come to terms with. The signature story for SAUNDERS: It’s a class thing.
me is “Mile-A-Minute Jones” from The Losers,
which was not cosmic but was, you know, war HATFIELD: He would say some-
stories, and it’s about this Jesse Owens-type thing like, “I looked up to Joe
figure who ends up in a race with the now-Nazi because Joe was a middle-class
German he faced in the Olympics. There’s this guy and I didn’t know any middle-
one scene that really struck me and I didn’t class guys when I grew up.”
realize why at the time, as a kid reading it, SAUNDERS: Even knowing how to
where they end up in a race again, and it’s like order things in a restaurant—that
a white line that gets them through a mine- kind of insecurity. I think that that
field that they’re kind of hallucinating as the part of him, when it wasn’t a
old lines on a track where they first met as allies. And Jones says, “I’ll source of bitterness and insecurity, was a source of empathy and
show you that a Black man can win!” And at the time I thought, “Wow, relation. And I think we can see all these things in the end are relative.
this is pretty un-theoretical” and basic, but I realized Kirby was Even when the Fantastic Four is about a New York that doesn’t seem
approaching race with a rawness—that it really is a conflict between to have any ethnicities in it, there are these moments of identifica-
people with unequal rights—in ways that a lot more self-conscious tion. This is an anecdotal thing from Tom Orzechowski, who says
writers, like Denny O’Neil, were really kind of twisting themselves when he grew up in Detroit and went to a mostly Black school and
into knots [over] and being self-congratulatory or inadvertently was friends with a lot of kids, they bonded over Fantastic Four, and
insulting, where Kirby had that direct sense of conflict. He knew it the character a lot of his Black friends liked the best was the Thing.
from when he was brawling with other ethnic groups that weren’t Now there’s both tragedy and power there. It’s a tragedy that a com-
him on the Lower East Side. So I think he had an honest conception munity can be so underrepresented in the culture that you identify
of it, but was very transitional in terms of being fully enlightened with the rocky orange monster, because you never actually get to see
about it. anyone who looks remotely like you. So on one hand it’s kind of
SAUNDERS: This is a really good question—and it’s a difficult one, I criminal, and not something to celebrate. On the other hand, Kirby
think. I’m very acutely conscious that we all seem to be over-forty was thinking about what it meant to really look different and to feel
white guys sitting here [audience laughter], and I think it’s something isolated and regarded as… There’s a long history in the racist culture
we really tried to address in the catalog, actually. We were self-con- of this country of making monsters out of people who look different.
scious about trying to make sure we had some articles by women Kirby’s latching onto that, running with that and using it. So I think
and articles by people of color in the catalog, because my own belief within the context of his own historical moment, there’s no doubt in
is that—I’m a practitioner of a certain kind of ideological and politi- my mind if Kirby had lived, that he would be on the same side as all
cal criticism, and I also came of age in an era of increased awareness the rest of us on these progressive issues.
of the vital importance of considering questions of difference when MOLOTIU: Well, Kirby identified with the Thing. He basically had a
engaging in critical work. And at the same time I have a sufficiently self-portrait as the Thing. So he identified with the monster.
residually humanist sort of faith, as unfashionable as it is, that there
are artists who can speak to everybody, and I want to believe that HATFIELD: Look for the story called “Street Code” in the gallery,
Kirby is one of those artists. I think that he didn’t like bullies. I think which shows Jack, in his sixties, recalling what it was like 60 years
before to be a poor kid on the streets of the Lower East Side, which
70
was one of the most crowded neighborhoods on Earth at that time. KEVIN DOOLEY [from audience]: Something that has barely been
A place of real privation and struggle, and you can really get a sense touched on—a little devil’s advocate thing here. Kirby’s Fourth
of that marginality. You had a question? World was just amazing. I loved it when I first read it. I got to be
honored to assistant edit on Mister Miracle and write Mister Miracle.
DAVID SCHWARTZ [from audience]: A comment actually; some
But when it was first posited that we restart New Gods and Mister
thoughts. My name is David Schwartz. I knew Jack. I knew Jack well,
Miracle, we were told by the Powers That Be that Kirby’s DC work
for about ten years. The thing I wanted to add to what you guys are
would never sell. And indeed if you look at New Gods and The Forever
saying is that first and foremost, when it came to his work, Jack was
People, they didn’t even last a year. Some people have averred that he
a storyteller. Even when he drew pictures on his wall that were dis-
never really sold well on his own, by himself—that he always needed
play pieces, if you asked him what the picture meant, he would go
someone else in order to sell well. And that just freaked me out.
into some lengthy story explaining everything about the picture. Now
“What do you mean? But this is the New Gods! This is Kirby—how
whether that was something by design or just because you asked, he
can you say that?” Unfortunately, it bears out that it didn’t sell well
was going to do so. He was always thinking, in a sense. He didn’t
and I’d love the panel’s thoughts on that.
drive. Basically his wife Roz drove, because there’s a story about in
Thousand Oaks, he was driving once down the street from where he BUKATMAN: I just have a quick response. You could see that as some-
lived, and he was thinking of some story and ran into a police car one who was not as much in touch with the comics buying public as
[laughter] that was parked. It was parked. [harder laughter] And so the people who he collaborated with were, perhaps. But you could
Jack didn’t drive because he was constantly thinking of things. And also make the case, which is borne out by this show, this panel and
when you were talking about how Sonny Sumo and the different all of this, that it demonstrates his idiosyncrasy. It demonstrates the
characters that were at first simplistic, but also had way more to way in which he was true to some internal sense of what he wanted
them when you actually explored the characters—the thing about to do. And if that wasn’t selling, I’m sure he wasn’t happy about
Jack’s work, in my opinion, is that it had real depth. So you could that, but I also don’t think that the ultimate goal was to figure out
appreciate it on all sorts of different levels. And I think that’s also ways to boost his sales.
part of the reason it sustains itself so well, as all of us have grown up.
Because as children, we were able to read it on one level, and then as DOOLEY: But the other point is that Fantastic Four sold so well with
adults we can re-read it and go, “Oh my gosh! There’s so much more Kirby and Lee. People said he didn’t sell well on his own.
here than we had originally thought.” HATFIELD: When we think about comic books, we think about
And my last point is that Jack really revered—or “revered” may something where the sales figures become the source of validation.
be the wrong word—Jack really was good with kids. What happened All of us play this game, especially in Los Angeles where we watch
was in the ’60s and ’70s, when he was doing, as you guys said, all of the box office receipts of movies we want to do well and see whether
these pages, people would find their way to his house because he they do—whether the receipts accord with our tastes or judgment,
was Jack Kirby, and people admired him. And instead of just cursory, as if those numbers are some kind of referendum on our tastes.
“Hello, how are you?”, he and Roz, his wife, they’d invite these kids Some kind of validation of our tastes. I mean, New Gods didn’t sell
in, feed them… and then all of a sudden kids are coming up from Fantastic Four numbers, but it still outsold, I bet, almost any comic
San Diego that helped found the San Diego convention. He put book published today, forty-odd years later. So these things are kind
them in the Jimmy Olsen book. So he’s got these kids coming up to of relative to context. And we see how generative—it’s funny how
his house who were in this club, who he’s not only entertaining, he’s DC cancelled New Gods and Forever People within less than two years,
taking time away from his work, et cetera, and then he puts them in and then within five years sought to revive them—and sought to
the comic book. I mean, he was really good with that kind of making
everyone family. And that’s just part and parcel of who he was, and I
think a lot of that is represented in The New Gods and Forever People.
It’s just very well represented.
HATFIELD: Sir? You want to build on that?
MAN IN AUDIENCE: Yeah. I wanted to expand on that too. I used to
work for Malibu Comics, which was in Thousand Oaks, and Jack Kirby
actually made a trip to our office and had toured our office, and he
invited the whole art department to his house. And every week, up
until maybe about a week before he passed away, we would go to his
house, and he would just tell us stories. And that was our thing on
Wednesdays. We would go to the comic book store and then we
would go to his house for lunch. Roz would make us lunch and we
would just kind of hang out there and he would tell us stories, sto-
ries about everything. And he would even give us the artwork of his
pages. But then you’d have Roz standing there right at the front
door… [laughter] “No. You can’t leave with that.” That’s what he used
to do. And he always welcomed us in, until towards the end when
Roz said, “He’s not feeling good. You guys’ll have to come back next
time.” And that’s how it was for us. The whole six months to a year I
was at Malibu, from ’93 to ’95, we would all do that. That was really
a fun time in my life, too. On what he just said about Jack welcoming
everybody into his house, he did that for everybody, and we would (above) Kirby, the Thing, and Joe Sinnott in a mid-1970s photo by David Folkman.
have at least ten of us over to the house, and we would sit there and Jack apparently felt Ben Grimm was Jewish, based on this Kirby family Hanukkah
he would talk and we would just listen, you know. And then we went card (previous page) drawn for David Folkman. In 2002, Jeffrey Weiss wrote a won-
derful article about the Thing (and Jack’s) Jewish heritage for The Dallas Morning
back to work all hyped and stuff, so that was a good period. News. You can read it at: http://www.beliefnet.com/
News/2002/09/Comic-Faith-The-Things-Religion-Revealed.aspx
71
revive them again… and again… and again, often without much long- People and New Gods—for some reason Mister Miracle was not as
term success. Doug? desired by the comic book dealers. And wouldn’t you know, it was
Mister Miracle that had the good numbers that kept on, but New
HARVEY: I just wanted to point out how with the Fourth World, I
Gods and Forever People—which were the ones where the numbers
think the only sort of vaguely conventional superhero was Mister
weren’t being reported accurately—were the ones that were cancelled.
Miracle, who had a superhero name and some powers a typical
So actually, the comics that were reported by the distributors as
adolescent might think were cool, but with Jimmy Olsen and the
being destroyed, and not sold, were actually making it to the comic
Newsboy Legion and then The Forever People and New Gods, it was
book fan market.
like, “How many of them were there? They’re gods?” They were all
very… they weren’t, you know, Invisible Girl or whatever. So I think HATFIELD: Want to follow up, Adam? And then this gentleman
maybe Kirby was deliberately trying to expand the mythological over here.
vocabulary of the superhero genre. It wasn’t allowed to play out. It
might have caught on if it had been allowed to stretch out a little bit, McGOVERN: Sure. And of course Paul Levitz has proclaimed a lot
but it just wasn’t immediately a hit. that he looked back at the sales figures and DC thought they were
going to get Superman-like numbers from Kirby, so they ordered
BUKATMAN: I think something that the show bears out as well is quantities that made it seem like a failure. But it also has to do with
that Kirby on his own was rougher—
more raw and less pretty. When he
died, Neil Gaiman wrote that Kirby
was a great artist but he wasn’t a pretty
artist. And so this is really unlovely
work in some way. It’s not the slick-
ness that Joe Sinnott gave Kirby with
his inks. It’s not as smooth. The edges
are not smoothed down. But I think
that’s the way he wanted it and I think
it’s why, surprisingly enough, when I
go back to read the Marvel books, I
find Stan Lee’s writing, which I really
used to valorize, almost unreadable.
And I find Kirby’s writing, that I used
to excoriate, really bracing and
intriguing. So I just think there was
something going on, beyond the drive
for commercial acceptance, that maybe
he wasn’t happy about at the time, but
is probably the reason we’re here.
HATFIELD: I think we have time for a
couple other questions or comments.
I’ve seen a couple of hands. Rand?
RAND HOPPE [from audience]: I just
wanted to talk briefly about the comic
book business at the time, [when]
comics were being distributed on the
newsstand—
HATFIELD: This is Rand Hoppe of the
Jack Kirby Museum and Research
Center, by the way. [applause]
HOPPE: He was [sold] on the newsstand,
and at the time there was a burgeon-
ing development of fan comic book
dealers who would go into the news-
stand distributors and take bales or
packages of comics out of the warehouse.
Those were not reported as being sold.
Money was exchanged, but they
weren’t reported sold to the comic
book publishers. And there’s one par-
ticular scholar/comic book dealer, Bob
Beerbohm, who has reported that in
his experience, there were any number
of Jack Kirby comics that were taken
out of the distributors—being Forever
(above) Page 47 (“The Cheater”) of True Divorce Cases. (next page) Soul Love’s “The Model”, inks by Vince Colletta. Both 1971.

72
the churn of popular tastes. It’s interesting
you mention alternatives to the superhero
mythos. Kirby’s most unqualified hit at
the time was Kamandi, which was very far
afield of the typical superhero mythos.
And also there’s a telling and very
depressing quote from Carmine Infantino
when he’s justifying cancelling the Fourth
World, saying, “Oh, the college kids were
really flaking out over it”—he means
“freaking,” but whatever. “But you know it
just didn’t have the sales among the
[younger] kids.” Of course nowadays you
would think, “Let us target that niche—
let us select that audience,” but that wasn’t
the mentality of the times.
MAN IN AUDIENCE: Yes. You were talk-
ing earlier about Kirby’s roughness. But
earlier in his career he was known for the
Romance comics, which…you know,
Romance is in a bit of a revival right now.
I was wondering if you could talk a bit
about his Good Girl Art and when he was
drawing the Romance genre.
HATFIELD: Well, we know this—thanks
to a scholar named Harry Mendryk, who
worked with Joe Simon, even in recent
years before Simon, Kirby’s longtime part-
ner, passed away. We know that between
about 1947 and—’57? —a decade later,
Jack Kirby drew more pages of Romance
than he did of any other genre, and, in
fact, of all the other genres he worked on
combined during that period. And we
know too that Romance enabled Kirby
and Joe Simon to buy houses in the
suburbs. Kirby moved his family from
Brooklyn to Long Island and had a house
right next door or across the street from
his partner Joe, and Romance did that.
The Romance comics they published with
a publisher called Crestwood really did
that. We don’t tend to think about those
comics today, except insofar as they’ve
become part of the Marvel Comics blueprint—sort of soap People and everything. And another unrealized project from that
opera/melodrama and continuing relationship stories. We kind of period was to be an African-American Romance comic called Soul
see that as part of the… if you look closely at the Marvel superhero Love. [light laughter] He was always willing to go back there. He was
comics of the ’60s, we can see the Romance being in the DNA there, not unwilling to go back there. The market was unwilling to return
as part of what makes those a different kind of superhero comic. But there, I think, in 1970-71, but he was always willing to kind of go at
the truth is that Romance comics, which we tried to note in the it, especially if the topic might be expanded or the [range of] people
exhibition briefly, were maybe one quarter of the entire comic book represented in the comic might be expanded.
market by the end of the ’40s. Jack Kirby was the first artist known I don’t know that I addressed your question, except that
for drawing Romance comics. It’s still the case that many people Romance comics are really important. They are sort of what connects
look back on Jack’s Romance comics and think that the characters the Kirby of the ’40s to the Kirby of the ’60s, in ways that we still
are unlovely; times change, or maybe we read back into them the haven’t studied enough. Diana Schutz, one of our catalog contribu-
Kirby that we know from later years. I would say, go into the exhibi- tors—she is here, or was here, today—has a wonderful essay about
tion and look at the few examples of Romance we have there and Kirby’s Romance comics. It’s the first essay in the catalog, so we
think of those alongside the examples of Barda—the sort of super- definitely want to call attention to that. [applause] We have a number
hero that appears in Mister Miracle comics. We have several of those of contributors to the catalog here that are not on the dais with us,
[pages], where there’s a pin-up-like aspect to it, but there’s also a so buttonhole these people and ask them to sign your books when
depth to the character. That feels like another deferred response you go across the street.
kicking in. You know one of Kirby’s unrealized projects in the early I think we are out of time and we should give people a chance
’70s was to be a Romance revival called—get this—True Divorce to revisit the gallery, so thank you for your kind attention… [applause]
Cases [laughter], while he was creating the New Gods and Forever Go across the street and look at Kirby art. It’ll do you good. ★
73
 Barry Forshaw
Obscura
safe bet: you may well have picked up
A regular the odd issue of Strange Tales, lured
column focusing by Bill Everett’s jawdropping series of
on Kirby’s least monstrous images and hideous vis-
known work, ages (utterly irresistible for the horror comics aficionado), but
by Barry Forshaw it’s highly unlikely that you’ve managed to acquire many of
those very pricey (and I mean pricey!) initial ten issues—and
KIRBY IN if you have, it’s an equally safe bet that you only managed to
Barry Forshaw is the
CONTEXT get them in tatty or severely distressed state, covers either
author of British Gothic I hope readers of this maga- bleached of colour or held on by half a staple. But here’s the
Cinema and The Rough zine will appreciate just what a good news—wait for it—you don’t need to win the lottery or
Guide to Crime Fiction struggle it was for me not to spell wait for that elderly relative to die. In their very cherishable
(available from the strapline above alliteratively, with hardback archive editions,
Amazon) and the editor
of Crime Time two ‘k’s, i.e. “Kirby in Kontext.” But I
(www.crimetime.co.uk). resisted. This column will be a slightly dif-
He lives in London. ferent one from the usual Kirby Obscura, and
to explain why, I have to ask the reader: are
you familiar with Patrick McGoohan’s cult series
The Prisoner? One episode did not feature
McGoohan himself (apart from a brief final segment),
as he was unavailable filming elsewhere (the mind of
the character Number Six was transferred to someone
else, giving another actor a chance to pinch-hit). In similar
fashion, Jack Kirby will be conspicuously absent from this
column—but there is a reason. For someone like myself,
who holds the heretical view that Kirby produced his best
work prior to his Marvel super-hero period, it’s impossible
not to see him in the context of other comics of the 1950s,
even those he did feature in (at the time) such as Stan Lee’s
fantasy anthology book Strange Tales. Kirby was, of course,
to transform the book as lead artist in its giant monster period,
but it’s worth taking a look at an earlier era to put the King’s
subsequent work in context.

STRANGE TALES
BEFORE THE KING
You’ve just won the lottery.
Or an elderly uncle (one you
barely knew) has just died and Marvel Masterworks have finally moved beyond reprinting
left you his fortune. The point the exploits of Spider-Man, Daredevil and the Fantastic Four
is, you now have scads of dis- to reproduce some highly desirable comics from the era that
posable income—what is the preceded the Marvel super-hero revolution—yes, the first
first luxury item you’re going to ten issues of prime ’50s horror title Strange Tales may now
splurge on? Well, if you are a be purchased in one volume, without having to take out a
consumer of From the Tomb second mortgage on your house. There were, of course,
(and the chances of that are signs that Marvel was ultimately likely to get around to this
good if you’re reading these era—the reissue program had already moved beyond super-
lines), you might be tempted heroes to collect Marvel monster-era titles such as Tales of
by a mint set of the first ten Suspense and Tales to Astonish (with that wonderfully exu-
issues of Strange Tales, the berant artwork by Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko), so perhaps it
highly influential Stan Lee-edit- was just a matter of time before the reissue program began
ed horror comic from the early to celebrate another of the company’s great achievements
1950s, when the two industry (albeit one that perhaps Marvel is not quite so proud of; as
giants who could boast the I’ve said before in these pages, quoting a conversation I once
most stellar illustrating talents had with Stan Lee, he seemed genuinely surprised when I
were Gaines and Feldstein’s EC reminded him that at Atlas he had actually published more
Comics and Lee and horror titles than the market leader EC). In any case, it was
Goodman’s Atlas line. Here’s a clear that Lee (perhaps understandably) preferred to be
applauded for his part in the comics revolution that produced
74
the X-Men and Spider-Man with their massively successful cinema fran-
chises; as Lee said, to admit in the 1950s that you wrote for comic books
was totally unacceptable in most social circles (akin to child corruption)—
and if such disapproval even fell on Superman and Batman, think just how
close to the chest you’d keep the fact that you were the editor of a maga-
zine called Adventures into Weird Worlds! I’ve had exactly the same senti-
ments voiced to me by the science-fiction writer Harry Harrison, who (with
the late Wallace Wood) worked for the EC line—basically, you lied about
your profession to avoid social ostracism.
But enough history: time to pour a glass of wine and lovingly open that
impressive hardback cover of this beautiful slipcased archive edition (far
more permanent-seeming then the original Atlas comics themselves ever
were) and immerse ourselves in a long gone era. Before the first story,
there is an introduction by Michael J. Vassallo, detailing the history of
Atlas horror fantasy, “Origins and Pre-Code 1949 to 1981,” in which
Vassallo attempts to nail down pencillers and inkers. This sort of
identification process is highly contentious territory—and, as such, I’m
going to abandon any possible disputes over such issues and pass on to
the cover of Strange Tales #1, dated June 1951. This cover, of course,
bears no number, as was the tradition of the day (the usual attempt to fool
readers into thinking that a new book had an existing history). It’s by an
unidentified artist (Michael Vassallo hazards a guess at Carl Burgos); it
shows a man in torn clothing being issued into a flame-filled room, as
taloned, monstrous hands clutch towards him. What follows is a brace of
tales by such names as Paul Reinman, Manny Stallmann and George
Tuska. So, here we are with these beautifully reproduced tales of terror
(on glossy paper) which most of us couldn’t afford in this kind of condition.
A cause for celebration, right?
Well, yes and no. It’s certainly true that the combination of bright poster
colours and the glossy, photo-quality paper utilised in the archive editions
from both DC and Marvel have not always done favours to the vintage
material reprinted—often the more subtle, four-colour printing and cheap
paper of the original books resulted in a far more pleasing effect to the eye
(a good example of this contrast may be found in the various archive edi- its still unnumbered cover), things were very rapidly
tions of Gil Kane’s Silver Age Green Lantern, where the original books coming together, and the Atlas brand (under Lee’s stewardship) was firmly
boasted a much more understated colour scheme—ironic, considering establishing a solid working method. Take a look, for instance, at the
that 1950s comics were considered, in their day, as the last word in cheap splash panel of the first story in issue, “The Evil Eye.” It’s a wonderful end-
garishness). That upscaling of quality is very much the case with these of-the-world tableau by the man who would become Atlas’ premier cover
Strange Tales reprints, where the colours are (to say the very least) of the artist, the great Bill Everett. A sinister giant orb gazes down on a burning
primary, eye-popping variety. I know that some writers on this magazine and ruined city heaving with terrified, weeping masses. They fling their
will not agree with me, but, frankly, I can’t get too worried with this subject arms to heaven in biblical fashion (one woman even has her dress judi-
concerning these reprints. The few originals that I have managed to obtain ciously torn by her breast). It’s a striking curtain opener for the following
from so early in the run are of lamentable condition, with (in some cases) exuberant tale, drawn in Everett’s characteristically unsophisticated but
colour that is so badly faded it barely registers on the page. So, for me, to eye-catching style. It’s followed by the tale of a sinister baby, “It!”, drawn
have all the first ten issues is a real bonus. by an artist who was later to become the premier Spider-Man illustrator
after Steve Ditko, John Romita—though his later mastery is only fitfully
STAN LEE FINDS HIS FEET evident here. Issue #5 (numbers had finally started to appear) opens with a
If I sound less than enthusiastic about the first few issues of this set, it tale illustrated by Maneely, who has now clearly found the bold grotesque
is because—to be brutally honest—Stan Lee and his team of artists were style that was his trademark in the Atlas days; the story (which features a
still finding their form (rather like, in fact, the early issues of EC Comics’ wide variety of monsters, ghouls, and vampires) is written by Hank
Vault of Horror and Tales from the Crypt, where Bill Gaines and Albert Chapman, a solid comics professional much relied upon by Stan Lee and
Feldstein slowly and surely put together a team of artists that would carry Carl Wessler in these early days—in fact, the most prolific, apart from
their titles to such dizzying heights, while polishing their own writing style Lee himself.
to something far more sophisticated than the crude early efforts). Similarly, Shortly after this, there is a reappearance of the highly professional
here, Stan Lee and his cohorts’ writing is very often pedestrian, and the Manny Stallman in a lively tale called “The Trap”—and Stallman, like
artwork undistinguished—though it is instructive to see the early efforts of Maneely, has found his signature style (though not quite the finesse he
Joe Maneely, rapidly on his way to becoming one of the great Atlas artists, would later demonstrate on DC SF titles for Julius Schwartz such as
and very much Stan Lee’s artist of choice. It has often been said (not least Mystery in Space and Strange Adventures). Next up among the notable
by Lee himself) that had he not died at such a tragically early age, Joe tales is one of the great unsung heroes of Atlas horror comics, the very
Maneely would undoubtedly have become a crucial ingredient in the stylish (and highly stylised) Tony di Preta, with his first appearance in
Marvel revolution along with Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko. But horror comic Strange Tales, a relatively uneventful piece called “My Brother Harry.” His
fans can at least console themselves with the fact that some of his best style (here at least) seems to have arrived fully formed, with all the elon-
work was produced for these early Marvel/Atlas books. But don’t—please gated limbs, grotesque “camera angles,” and highly dramatic shadows that
don’t!—let the fact that the early issues reproduced here are somewhat are his hallmark. By this point, any purchaser of this archive edition will be
underwhelming put you off buying the book. In fact, by issue #4 (despite feeling they are getting their money’s worth but… the best is yet to come.
75
 FIRING ON ALL CYLINDERS “He Wished He Was a Vampire,” a
By the time of Strange Tales #6, Atlas is clearly firing on all cylinders. Pete Tomlinson offering in #7 (with
Gone are the diffuse, undramatic covers, and we have the first truly excel- a very striking splash panel of a
lent piece of work by another one of the major Atlas artists, the massively screaming man in flames), Bill
talented Russ Heath. A terrified man, down on his knees, pounds at a mas- Everett’s “Hidden Head” cover for
sive metal door, shrieking, “Let me out!! He’s right behind me!! I can hear ST #10, a premier outing in ST
the footsteps of the ugly man!” (Multiple exclamation marks were de for Joe Sinnott (featured in an
rigueur for Stan Lee in his early Atlas days.) Behind the frightened man, a earlier issue of From the Tomb),
figure in a purple suit stalks towards him. All we can see of this creature is even Bernard Krigstein (though
an extended grey-hued hand, covered in scales. Yes, here is the definitive signally lacking—as yet—the
Atlas cover style, refined it to the level of frisson-inducing excitement that remarkable design skill he was
guaranteed the sales of the books to GIs and lucky kids of the 1950s to bring to his later EC work),
(before, that is, the Comics Code did away with such grisliness). And the and Jim Mooney’s “The
first story—as if this weren’t enough—is more Russ Heath! A man in a Monster’s Son,” showing
blue space suit stumbles across a bleak, cracked alien landscape, arms that he could handle
raised in fear. No blurb, no speech balloon—neither is needed. And the SF Frankenstein’s creation as
tale that follows is delivered in characteristic Heath fashion: powerful, bold capably as he could (later)
lines, strong crosshatching, and brilliant draughtsmanship. Perhaps not yet Supergirl and the Legion of Super-Heroes.
Russ Heath at his apogee (that was to come a few issues later), but still After finishing this volume (all reservations aside), you’ll be (as the
good enough to blow away most of the competition. Crypt Keeper used to say) hungry for another horror helping. Of course, if
Now the goodies come thick and fast: Maneely’s “My Brother Talks to you want horror Jack Kirby-style, you’ll have to look out for those Black
Bats,” a first appearance in ST for later Daredevil artist Gene Colan with Magic reprints…★

Down With The King!

by Earl Martin
I first met Jack “King” Kirby at Carl Taylor’s 1977 Art and Comics
Appreciation Day at the L.A. Library. Also there was Mark Evanier,
Scott Shaw, Larry F. Houston, and more great contributors to
comics fandom. I was 16 and too shy to show my “hero” my art.
So as “The King” was outside getting mobbed, I was in a quiet part of the Library—
where I began a friendship with a great artist and legend, Sergio Aragonés.
I was very familiar with his work—the scribbles of his genius on the borders of MAD.
We shared stories for what seemed hours—he gave me the confidence to go meet my
hero. When I went outside, Roz was trying to separate the crowd from Jack, saying ever
so politely but sternly,
“Honey, it’s time to go!”
(Of course, the extended
family won for a few more
minutes!)
She turned and noticed
me there with my painted
posters on the outside of
my portfolio (Carl Taylor-
style). I stood there in
shock. My bud and fellow artist David Phillips blurted out to Roz, “He wants to
show Kirby his art, but he’s scared!” In that motherly Jewish New Yorker tone,
she said, “Let me see.” She was impressed by my potential, and after a few
questions she took a liking to me. She pulled Jack from the crowd and showed
him my art. I remember telling him, “Carl Taylor was a great mentor and friend.”
Roz and Jack were in agreement. “Keep us updated... when in town, come up!”
Being poor, I never made the trip, but we stayed in contact. At the ’87 San Diego
Con, we reunited and exchanged art, love, and friendship—until his passing.
I forget if it was one or two years later, I got my last motherly kiss and hug
from “Ma Kirby.” I said, “Roz, what are you doing in that wheelchair?” She was
always strong and in charge! She said some personal comments of encourage-
ment to me, and gave me a Captain Victory/Silver Star card signed by Jack. We
hugged, and as I walked away, fans and family engulfed her with love and
compassion. I was and am proud of the fact Mr. and Mrs. Jack “King” Kirby
considered me more than a fan. ★
76
 Mark Evanier
Jack F.A.Q.s
A column of Frequently Asked Questions about Kirby

be chased by a caterpillar.”
2015 Kirby Tribute Panel
Held at 10:00 a.m. on Sunday, July 12, 2015 at Comic-Con
[laughter] But with Jack, it
was hard to sometimes
The war is over, and
now it’s just beginning! International: San Diego. Featuring Rob Liefeld, Marv second-guess where that
Following the court set- Wolfman, J. David Spurlock, and Paul S. Levine, and brain of his was going.
tlement, Marvel is now Maybe he would have gone, “Of course Ant-Man is a
giving Kirby proper
moderated by Mark Evanier. Transcribed by Steven Tice,
credit, as they did edited by John Morrow, and copyedited by Mark Evanier. great movie.” I don’t know that for a fact.
heavily on the January You can view a video of this panel at One of the other things that has changed is that a
19, 2016 TV special https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewpZ2sAn7F8 lawsuit was settled. You may have heard about this. And
Captain America: 75 we’re not going to talk much about it at all, really. I’m
Heroic Years—a lead-in
to this Spring’s pivotal MARK EVANIER: Since we last going to say two things about it. One was that I’m real
Marvel film Captain met, the major change in the— happy, Jack and Roz would have been happy, the Kirby
America: Civil War. You know, Jack was a man who family is happy, everybody around the Kirby family is
was rarely ever surprised by very happy. Now, you can make an argument that it’s
anything relating to comics. He too little, too late, Jack and Roz should have been here to
was surprised a bit by the business see it. Okay, fine. Given. Given the reality of what was
ethics, but the content didn’t possible, I am very happy.
surprise him. Somebody asked Now, the second thing is a personal matter. I met
me last year, “Would Jack have Jack in July of 1969, almost exactly this time of July, in
been surprised that there was this huge multi-million- fact. And he told me at that time, as he told anyone who
dollar movie of the Avengers?” No. Would Jack have been visited him then, what he felt he had contributed to the
surprised that there was Marvel Universe, what he did, how he felt he was being
this huge multi-million- under-credited and not treated very well. And through
dollar movie of Thor? subsequent visits, as I got to know him better, I learned
No. The other day more and more about that. And I began to realize that—
somebody asked me, and, of course, I started meeting people like Don Heck,
“Would Jack have been and Steve Ditko, and Joe Sinnott, and Dick Ayers, and
surprised to see a multi- Stan Lee, and Sol Brodsky, other people who were around
million-dollar movie of through all that, and I began to realize that Jack’s version
Ant-Man?” Maybe. of the events was essentially correct. One could
[laughter] I don’t know occasionally quibble with a mistake of memory. Jack
for sure. I think—Ant- would occasionally say “Captain Marvel” when he meant
Man was the character “Captain America,” or he’d sometimes confuse Dick Ayers
that Jack cared about with Joe Sinnott when he was talking about something—
the least of anything he the kind of mistakes everybody makes. And he had some
had ever worked on, different terminology sometimes for words like “creator”
and he got very angry or “writing.” But I found that Jack was very honest, a
one time—well, not very honest man. I never, in my entire association with
very angry, maybe, on a him, felt he was intentionally lying to me, or to anyone.
scale of one to ten, I never heard Jack lie. I heard him get things wrong—
about a five — when which comic Iron Man was in or something like that—
somebody remarked, but I never felt that he lied. And over the years, my feeling
“Obviously, because that he was under-credited, that he was being financially
Jack was short, the character he must have identified wronged, grew and grew, and I got madder and madder,
with most was Ant-Man.” [laughter] And Jack said, and I got to a point in my life where I could not
“That’s stupid.” And he thought Ant-Man was a stupid go see Marvel movies. It just
comic, because nobody fantasizes about being an ant. annoyed me
[laughter] They fantasize about smashing down walls
and being able to fly… Nobody suddenly
says, “I really want to

77
 too much. I got stuck going who helped the Kirby family a lot and made
to see the first X-Men movie them very happy, was Mr. Rob Liefeld. [applause]
that came out, and I didn’t Rob is going to have to leave us because he is
like it. I mean, I didn’t like it so popular, he’s got another panel double-parked
as a movie, first of all. I have outside. [laughter] But I’m going to get to him in a
a low tolerance for CGI. I minute, and I’m going to ask him first to talk about
grew up in an era where, if his relationship with Jack and his feelings for him.
somebody leaped off a I’m going to skip Marv for a second here
building, you knew it wasn’t [laughter], because I’m talking about entrepreneurs,
Sean Connery leaping, it was I’m talking about the artists
his stuntman, but you knew and writers who also took command of
someone had actually done publishing and controlling the work, not just
that. Now I don’t believe for financial reasons, but for creative reasons.
anything at this point. But I
MARV WOLFMAN: And I was just a minion.
didn’t like the movie, and I
[laughter] The little guy with one eye. [Mark
would have walked out of it
stares at Marv] Sorry! [laughter]
except that I was sitting next
Speaking of stuntmen, we found this tiny
to Stan Lee at the screening. EVANIER: I’ve heard people say less silly things
image of a commission piece Jack drew of [laughter] on panels than [that].
his Hollywood hero. If you’ve got a better I was working for Stan [laughter] Thank you, Marv. Anyway, another
repro of this, please send it in! Would make Lee Media at the time, a guy that Jack knew and respected and thought
a great TJKC cover for someone to ink... company which has lived on was a hell of a good guy, Mr. J. David Spurlock,
forever in lawsuits, and the entire staff was there. We were basically ladies and gentlemen. [applause]
paid to be there that day, and I was actually paid very well to see that
[Editor’s Note: For space reasons this issue, I’ve
movie. And they cheered when Stan’s cameo came on, and I don’t
omitted the introductions of people from the
begrudge Stan some moments of his own. I think Stan deserves a lot
audience, and announcements of upcoming Kirby-
of credit for things he did. But at the end of the movie everybody got
related projects, all of which have been covered in recent issues of TJKC.]
up and walked out, and I sat there and waited for the credits. I was
waiting for Jack’s name. And I’m sitting in this theater at the Cineplex— EVANIER: All right, Rob. Let’s talk—
they’d rented it for the day. And I was sitting there, and ushers were
ROB LIEFELD: I’m here until 11:00 o’clock. I just wanted to say, it’s
sweeping up popcorn boxes around me, and I’m the only person in
such a tremendous honor. When you asked me to come to this, I was
the theater who is watching the credits. And I’m determined I am
so thrilled. As you know, my love for Jack runs so deep. It’s eternal,
going to stay there until I see Jack’s name, even if I have to sit there
it’s forever, and I love that you guys gather every year and remember
through Chicken Run, which was otherwise playing in that theater.
and talk about him. So thank you for inviting me.
And finally Jack got the smallest, most insignificant credit. He and
Stan were credited at the very end, right after the people who had EVANIER: What was your favorite Kirby stuff when you were growing
supplied the donuts or something like that. And I got so mad about up? What was your favorite Kirby work?
that, I just—I get mad about once every five years. I got very mad
LIEFELD: It shifts on the week. I am 47 years old. I started collecting
about that, and I have not to this day seen any more of the Marvel
comics at five years old because my parents gave me Richie Rich and
movies. So as a personal note, I just want to tell you that a great
Casper comics. But my dad took me to the barber, and he had Marvel
weight has been lifted off of me by this, and I’m very happy for me,
comics. And the barber liked me, and saw the magic that these
apart from all of the happiness I have for the Kirbys and the people
comics had on me, and he allowed me to swap my Richie Riches and
who love them and such. Anyway… [applause]
my Caspers. [laughter] And I felt like, “I am getting one over on this
Let me introduce the dais to you here. First of all, I’m going to start
guy!” [laughter] But I got Kamandi, and the New Gods, and I want to
at the far end. Part of the reason that that weight was lifted off me is
tell you, a comic will hit you and stay with you your whole life, and
that Jack has had, finally, in his life, a couple of good
you can’t explain why, but the One Man Army Corps that is OMAC
lawyers here and there. He did not, at some points,
hit me at a young age and I have been trying to recreate OMAC my
have those, and one of them for a time was this
entire life. Honestly, Mark, there is nothing he didn’t do that I do not
gentleman who, full disclosure, is also my attorney.
get genuinely thrilled over. Around that time, also, ’75, you had the
This is Mr. Paul S. Levine. [applause]
Eternals, he was coming back, his Captain America run. But my thing
Jack was an enormous fan of entrepreneurial-
with Jack is, he was unbelievable. He was the best storyteller, the best
ism among artists. That’s not the exact word, but
illustrator, and by far the best costume designer that this business or
it will suffice for this time. You know what I mean.
any business has ever seen, ever. And when you see any influence in my
He liked the idea that artists took responsibility
work, the first thing I will tell you is Jack, and his headdresses? That
for their work and that they reaped the profits on
dude put the best headdresses on people, ever. [chuckling] Starting
it and such. And one of the things that was interesting about Jack is
with Galactus, and continuing through Orion and Lightray. So, look,
that he never begrudged the new kids who had more advantages
I give Jack, I mean—I get very excited over Jack, as you can tell.
than him. Obviously, a guy who got into comics much later than Jack
had a better deal, got better contracts, got percentages and credits, and EVANIER: Tell us about meeting Jack the first time.
much better treatment. He never resented the fact that those people
LIEFELD: The first time I met Jack was at a convention in Los Angeles
got something he hadn’t. And when a bunch of creators started getting
and I was on a panel. I had just started my career. I was about two
superstar status and the attendant remuneration, Jack was an absolute
years into comics, and I was on a panel with Jack and Mike Mignola,
cheerleader. There was not a single scintilla of resentment in him. He
and we were just in awe of Jack. But there was one thing that Jack
was a big fan of these people, especially a few of them who turned
said that, as an artist, just encouraged me that day on the panel, and
around and helped the Kirby family out a lot. One of those people
78
it doesn’t hold true today because time has changed, but in 1989 he But the [next] time I met him, we were walking the halls of San
was 100% on the mark. Someone said, “Look, what advantages do Diego in 1991, so it was the year before Image, and my peers and I had
you think comic book artists have?” And he said [in Jack voice], “You experienced some great success at Marvel, and I was walking through
know, everything we can create we can do with a piece of paper and a the hall and Roz said, “Hey, could you come here for a second?” And
pencil. We have unlimited budgets.” I mean, I’m a terrible Jack I immediately recognized her as Roz Kirby, and Jack in a dapper suit,
[laughter], but I can remember how, his cadence. And he goes, and I’m doing him a disservice in my hoodie, and he comes to
“Hollywood can’t keep up with us. If I want to destroy our entire Comic-Con rockin’ a suit. He walks toward me slowly and he said, “I
planet, I can do it on a double-page spread, and it costs me my pencil, just wanted to tell you how inspired I am by you and your peers and
and my eraser, and my paper.” And I was like, “Yeah!” And nowadays, everything that you’re doing.” And if you don’t think that I stopped
like Mark said, now the CGI guys can say, “Oh, yeah? Mr. Kirby, and I quaked—I’m like, “God just gave me a compliment.” [laughter]
watch this!” [mimics typing on a computer] And put in some pixels. But “There is something wrong with this!” It’s like Mark said, he was as
they got that from Jack. They got the idea from Jack to do it in the genuine, and kind, and nice, and I’ll tell you, because my kids hear
first place, so it all goes back to Jack. [applause] me talk about Jack Kirby all the time—the highlight of my career, it
is the absolute highlight, is when
Roz and Jack invited us to their
house. And I had a studio at the
time, and about six of us, including
Eric Stephenson, who is the current
publisher of Image Comics, and he
will tell you this is one of our
magic moments, and I saw Mike
Thibodeaux in the audience here,
he was there that afternoon. We
piled in the car, and we drove to—
is it Thousand Oaks?
EVANIER: It was Thousand Oaks,
yeah.
LIEFELD: And we went to Jack’s
house about 2:00 in the afternoon,
and I remember sitting around the
table at midnight going, “Do we
have to go? Because he doesn’t
seem like he’s going to sleep…”
[laughter] He told us the best
stories from World War II through
the comics industry, and my mind
was so blown. We were touching
the hem of God. To me, that was
the most important period and day
that I had in the comics industry,
and everybody in my studio who
was with me that day will tell you
the same thing. And I just wanted
to tell you, like, again, I was just,
you understand, Jack Kirby
influenced everything about me
and my peers’ work, and so we’re
walking—I had never seen all these
Biblical drawings he had done,
okay? So this was a revelation to
me in 1992. And we walked by the
first one, he showed us the house,
and there’s a giant picture of a man
with a beard and flowing hair and
the cosmic lines that Jack did, and
to me, I mean, is this Highfather?
Is this Odin? And so we’re sitting
there, and Jack’s standing next to
the giant frame, and I said, “So,
who’s this?” [nonchalantly] “Well,
that’s God.” [laughter] And I said,
“Like, like God?” [laughter] And I
was like, “Dude!” [laughter] And
A third of Jack’s 1976 “Tribes Trilogy” triptych that was undoubtedly on the walls when Rob visited Jack’s house. the next drawing is this Jack Kirby
79
machine, like one of his Galactus technology things that could only So that was just a tremendous experience. Like I said, we loved
come out of his imagination, and there’s, like, a guy hitting the buttons, Jack, and I can never repay him for all the great memories he’s given
and there’s these walls falling in the distance, and I said, “Jack, what’s us, and I know everyone else here has a story to tell, but I’ll tell you, I
this?” And again, casually, like he took the picture and he was there always think, on Facebook and Twitter, and talk to my peers and fans,
[laughter], “Oh, that’s the Battle of Jericho.” [laughter] And I went, and we always talk about the Mt. Rushmore of comics, who’s on it?
“They had that friggin’ cosmic organ at Jericho?” [laughter] And I’m like, “Jack’s not on the Mt. Rushmore of comics. He gets his
To this day, the most significant experience was those eight hours. own mountain, okay?” [scattered applause] And here’s the deal. We
I mean, Roz was so kind and so gentle. She let me go roam through have to keep talking about him all the time; because Jack passed
drawers and drawers and drawers of unpublished art, and I saw a before all of his creations came to the screen, if we don’t talk about him,
sequence of pages, and I was just so excited. Image Comics was very we can’t count on the corporations to do that. And I’m so thrilled
successful at the time, our brand was very strong, and we loved Jack. about the settlement. Like all of you, I stood up on my couch when it
And I said, “Roz, what if I took these pages and I had all my partners came up on the Internet and I cheered because the Kirbys finally got
and I ink these pages? What if we then publish this and gave you the what was coming to them. But the bottom line is, if you don’t talk
proceeds?” And she went and checked with Jack, and Jack gave it the about him, people don’t know who he is, because we live in such a
green light, and I called my buddies. I said, “Jim Lee, would you ink rapid fire, information—I have three kids, 15, 13, and 11, and they
Jack Kirby?” “Done.” “Todd McFarlane, would you ink Jack Kirby?” consume at such a rapid rate and, literally, [pointing at his head] it’s in
“Done.” “Jerry Ordway, would you ink Jack Kirby?” “Done.” Marc and out, in and out. “I thought you were into that?” “Oh, that was
Silvestri, everybody. And, I’ll tell you, I think they all were like—I yesterday. I’m into this now.” “What?” [laughter] So things like this
mailed them the original pages, and Todd McFarlane called me and are great, and I’ll talk about Jack Kirby for the rest of my life because
said, “Bud! Hey, is this an original Kirby? And I get to ink it?” And I he was the single most important comic book creator, and I think
said, “That’s what we talked about. It’s not a Xerox, Todd. This is the he’s—you know, people talk about Steven Spielberg, and I think Jack
sh*t!” [laughter] Kirby should be talked about in the same sentence, so let’s keep
talking about him. [applause]
EVANIER: Rob left one detail out of that story, and I’m
going to put it in, because he’s probably too modest to
put it in. There was a period there, the last ten years or
so of Jack’s life, when he was getting an awful lot of
tributes, and you may have seen comics where people
put him in as a character, or they named characters
after him, and Jack—what I’m about to say, I don’t
want anybody to think Jack was not flattered by every
one of them. But Roz, to some extent, and a little bit
with Jack, they were always kind of conscious of the
fact that some of these things were real easy to do. I,
personally—this is speaking for me now—I have a
little problem with people who inflate minor efforts
into major things. This is a bad analogy, but after 9/11,
I knew people who thought they struck a blow against
the Taliban because they put a flag on their cars. And I
thought, no, no. The people who went out and gave
blood, who donated money to the victims—Herb
Trimpe, who worked at Ground Zero for six months,
volunteer work counseling people, those people that
made an effort... [applause] Putting a flag in your car
was like the dictionary definition of “the least you
could do.” There is no smaller gesture. It was $2.98 for
the flag. If you put up a $1.98 flag, you could have less
of a gesture, but... There were a lot of people who paid
tribute to Jack, and their intentions were always good,
and we respect them, but there were a few people who
did outstanding things to help the Kirbys. Roz used to
occasionally refer to—and this was kind of a little joke
with a little meaning under it—somebody would say,
“Oh, I just made a character look like you in my comic,
Jack.” Roz would mutter under her breath, “Oh, good,
another tribute with no money attached to it.” And the
Image guys, Rob and those guys, they gave Jack for that
comic a very, very large check, which is something that
very few people who have paid tribute to Jack ever did.
And to a guy who grew up during the Depression, and
to a guy who was financially wronged for much of his
life, I think that meant more to Jack than being made a
character in a hundred other comics. And thank you,
Todd McFarlane inked these unused 1970s “Bruce Lee” pencils for Image’s Phantom Force #1. Rob, for that. [applause]

80
Kirby Cameos
With the possible exception of Stan Lee, Jack may
have cameo’ed in more comics and related media than
any other creator. We’ve assembled a few here, from
Jack’s own work and others’. For extra fun, go to
http://citycyclops.tumblr.com/post/90882247523/photo-
shopping-jack-kirby-into-some-of-stan-lees and see
how a fan Photoshopped Jack into some of Stan’s
movie cameos. Characters TM & ©their respective owners

81
 Of course, I have to apologize to Rob, because, as I mentioned about Jack is… Evanier talked about how he was an extremely honest
earlier, people sometimes say the wrong thing. In the program book, person. He might make a mistake, an historical mistake when he was
I credited him as the creator of Spawn. [laughter] relating something, but there was never any kind of manipulation.
There is so much of this rampant today, and that’s why I want to say
LIEFELD: That’s funny!
it. By saying it, it almost acts like there was something there. The
EVANIER: Anyway, thank you, Rob. You can leave whenever you have point is, there wasn’t. He was just a straight-up guy, and even his
to go. You can stay as long as you can. David, tell us about your first persona, his physical persona, kind of related to his artwork. I grew
encounter—first of all, David, as you should all know, has a company up reading his comics, which he didn’t just draw. He wrote those
called Vanguard Publishing. They publish some of the best comic comics. You know, Stan may have dialogued them, but… [applause]
book artists who ever lived. Give us a list of the names of people If I’m tempted, I could drop some bombshells. You know,
you’ve published. sometimes I get wild. [laughter] But I’m going to say, he was like the
living embodiment of his work. There’s a strength in his work, the
DAVID SPURLOCK: Jim Steranko, Carmine Infantino, Frank Frazetta,
dynamics, in the way he kind of moved around, kind of stiff like this
Wally Wood, John Romita Sr., John Buscema, Roy Krenkel, Al
[attempts to impersonate Jack], and I think Rob did a great imitation of
Williamson, Jeffery Jones, Mike Kaluta—that’s the neighborhood.
that. [laughter] And the only thing is, the neck has to be a little
EVANIER: Anybody good? [laughter] Tell us about your meeting with tighter. But there was a strength in there. You could see the Thing, or
Jack, how Jack came into your life. the Hulk, or even Mr. Fantastic. All of his characters somehow were
embodied in Jack himself. But he was just a very solid, straight-up
SPURLOCK: I met Jack in the mid-to-late ’70s at a convention, and it
kind of guy, and one thing I like to refer to him to is a fountain. There
wasn’t that big of a convention, so we got a lot of time together. I was
was an old skit on Saturday Night Live about Woody Guthrie being in
a guest at the convention. I was very young, but I was a guest already,
the hospital before he died, and a very young Bob Dylan was coming
and I don’t know how to put this. As a joke, the promoter, whom I
in to visit him, and everything that came out of Woody Guthrie’s
grew up with and has now passed away, Larry Lankford, we kind of
mouth ended up becoming lyrics to Bob Dylan’s songs. Bob Dylan’s
grew up together. But anyway, as kind of a joke, he made me the
sitting there taking notes of everything that Guthrie uttered from his
party guest of honor, so amongst other things I was supposed to keep
deathbed. Well, Jack was, likewise, a creative genius. I wish I had a
everyone entertained, so we spent a lot of time in the guest suite.
tape recording of every conversation we ever had, because he could
Frank Kelly Freas was there. We started a very close friendship at the
barely open his mouth without ideas coming out. In some ways, I’m
time, and the same with Jack. We spent a lot of time together at that
almost surprised how you could go back and see a theme in the
convention. And then, after that, the Dallas convention started to
Golden Age, he revives it again in the ’60s, he does another take on it
grow, and Jack and Roz started coming back practically every year.
in the ’70s or even the ’80s. Whether it’s the kid gangs—I look at the
For a while there were so many signed Kirby comics in the Dallas
Forever People, and I see the Newsboy Legion. Or Thor—how early
area, you could find them easily in twenty-five-cent boxes. So every
was the first appearance of Thor? 1942 or something like that? [Mark
time they would come we would spend some time, and stay in touch,
nods] And then he’s got Thor over at Marvel. And the New Gods really
and write letters, and occasionally talk on the phone, and kind of
is an extension of Asgard, in a way. It’s like, this is the new thing. So
what’s already been talked about. One thing that’s very important
I’m actually kind of surprised with all those revisiting of ideas. Other
people did that, too. Wally
It’s party-time, Kirby-style! “Deep Space Wood’s the perfect example.
Disco” is probably an unused late 1970s
animation concept, and Jack’s own take But Kirby could come up
on the Star Wars cantina scene. with ideas so easily. So
(next page) Mid-1970s Hulk sketch. there’s information coming
out today, it’s easier to look
back in hindsight and kind of
figure out what was going on.
And he was a great guy, I was
very proud to know him, and
I was happy to stay in touch
with him until pretty much
the day he died. [applause]
I did all these books,
I’ve worked with these artists.
I’ve basically created a career
for myself working with people
that I grew up admiring. I
wanted not just to—I wasn’t
just inspired to draw because
they inspired me with their
art. I also wanted to know
them as people and work
with them. And I’ve worked
with all these great names.
There were a couple of things
Jack and I talked about
working on. When I first
came into publishing about
1990, I talked to him about
82
maybe working on the THUNDER
Agents. I had a deal with John Carbonaro
to do the THUNDER Agents. But
anyway, I haven’t done a lot of Kirby.
Probably the biggest Kirby-related
project I’ve done was I did Joe Simon’s
book, The Comic Book Makers. Joe was
very proud of that. And one of the big
reasons I wanted to do that was because
of the connection, the Kirby connection.
But I just wanted to say this for the
record, and everything is subjective,
and I could debate on this for weeks,
months, however long, and there’s a
lot of artists that I’m very invested
into: Wally Wood, Jim Steranko,
Carmine Infantino, Wrightson, Frank
Frazetta, those all rise to the top of the
list. But, for the record, as far as I’m
concerned, the greatest comic book
creator—not just artist—the greatest
comic book creator of all time is Jack
Kirby. [applause] The only reason I
haven’t done more with Kirby is
because Mark, and the Kirby Collector,
do such a fine job. It’s like, all right,
Kirby’s being taken care of. [laughter]
EVANIER: Well, David takes good care
of a lot of these people, posthumously,
in most cases, unfortunately.
SPURLOCK: They’re dying now, they’re
dying on me. I’ve got to find a new
generation. Joe Kubert, and Carmine
Infantino, and Al Plastino... It’s like,
when I was a kid, the new guys were
Neal Adams and Jim Steranko, and
now they’re suddenly the old guys.
EVANIER: There was a convention,
WonderCon, two years ago. I went up they had to pass us to get to the party. And I said, “There he is,” and
to Marv and Len—[to Marv Wolfman] remember this, in the dealers Wood jumps up. At that time, he was not the most physically able
room? I walk up to Marv and Len and I said, “Do you want to hear person, but he suddenly had a spring in his body. He jumps up and
something frightening, guys?” They said, “Okay, what is it?” I said, he goes, “Jack! You’re the greatest!” And Jack goes, “No, Wally, you’re
“There’s 65,000 people at this convention, and the people who have the greatest!” And Wood says, “No, you’re the greatest! You’re the
been in comics the longest here are the three of us.” Len, Marv, and greatest artist who ever worked in comics!” And Jack says, “No, Wood,
me. And I still think I got in last Tuesday, so it’s amazing. you’re the greatest artist who ever worked in comics!” [laughter] And I
David, I want to talk about Wally Wood for a couple of minutes thought, “This is not a debate that we need to get into.” [laughter]
here, because Jack and Wally had an intermittently very close relation- And David, in your research about this man, have you found similar
ship. For years they didn’t see each other. The two times I spent any examples of the fondness the two guys had for each other? I don’t
time with Wally Wood, he would really not get off the subject of how think either one ever said a bad word about the other. They admired
wonderful Jack Kirby was, both personally and professionally. He each other tremendously. One thing Wood said to me the first time I
kept talking about how well Jack had treated him on Sky Masters, and met him was that he had seen—looking at Joe Sinnott, the inker of
how guilty he felt when he missed deadlines. That was not a great time the Fantastic Four—he said, “That’s the way Jack should be inked. I
in his life. He was having some problems with what they call substance inked too much of Jack.” I don’t remember the exact quote, but it was
abuse and he was late with pages, and Jack had to keep tracking him like, “I took away some of the stuff Jack did better than me,”
down and sometimes substituting something for him. And Jack had particularly the faces and the body postures and things like that, and
nothing but fondness for Wally Wood. There was a scene at the last he wanted very much to ink Jack again, but to do it more like… Sinnott
San Diego convention that Wood came to, I don’t remember the year, had taught him a different approach to inking Jack. So, David, do
’80 or ’81. And I was talking to Mr. Wood in a bar area, and he was you have any thoughts on this type of thing?
nursing one drink the entire time. I am not comfortable around people
SPURLOCK: I could write half a dozen books about Jack Kirby and
who drink, I am not comfortable around them a lot of times for reasons
Wally Wood.
that are irrelevant to this panel. And he was going on about how he
had not seen Jack at the convention to that moment. And finally we EVANIER: Okay. Well, can you talk a little bit about it here for a
looked out and Jack and Roz were walking up to go to a party, which couple minutes?

83
SPURLOCK: Well, first of all, I don’t think they spent that much time together
because artists in those days—it’s a very unfortunate thing. They worked a secluded,
you know, a secluded work. They worked at home. Now, Wood, on occasion, employed
various assistants. A lot of people got to the point where they thought he had assistants
all the time. No, he didn’t. He worked at EC for 15 years. People think about him
hopping around all the time, and later he did hop around a lot. But he was at EC for
15 years, including he was the only artist in every single issue of Mad for the first ten
years. I don’t think they got to spend much time together. But they had the absolute
utmost respect for each other. I know Wood didn’t just consider Jack a great talent, he
considered him a genius. And I consider him a genius. But Jack’s work was very foreign
to every other style. Wood’s working in kind of a little more classical style. He had his
own little tropes and techniques, but he was influenced by Eisner, he was influenced
by Raymond, he was influenced by Foster. I talked to Kirby and I asked him, “Who
were your influences?” He said, “Foster and Raymond,” and Ed Cartier, who used to
illustrate the Shadow pulps. But when you see it through Kirby, you can’t see those
influences. Jack saw them. In his romance work you may have seen a little bit more of
the Raymond, and in the character of the Demon you get some Foster, but it’s like
Jack’s a prism, light comes through, and it only comes out colored Kirby everywhere.

So when inkers inked Jack, they really

didn’t know what to do. You know, the
squiggles—it took years for people to figure
out what to do with it, so I understand
where he was coming from. It’s a sad
thing now, and I’m going to get in one of
these little political areas. I like to put the
group together as Kirby, Ditko, and Wood,
okay? And that’s a triumvirate. Kirby,
Ditko, and Wood, and that was a
masterful, powerful triumvirate at Marvel
specifically in the year ’65. Wood came to
Marvel in ’64. He left Mad, which was
selling two million copies a month, and he
came over to Marvel and took over
Daredevil, and he was there for exactly one
year—rightly celebrated by Stan on his
arrival, unlike any artist ever had been at
that time. But all three of those guys, they
were plotting their stories, and Stan was
dialoguing them. They liked the freedom
to work the way they were working there,
but there were some issues that arose,
and they were all interested in leaving at
the same time. Kirby left first. Ditko left
within a couple of months.
EVANIER: Wood left first. Kirby left last.
SPURLOCK: I’m sorry, Wood left first.
Ditko followed him in a couple of months.
They both went over to Tower. Jack had a
big family. Those guys, neither one of
them had kids. Jack had a lot more
responsibility, and he couldn’t go back to
DC at that time because of the lawsuit
with Jack Schiff. And so, if he could have,
I think he would have left right there and
then, at the same time, if he could have
gone to DC, but he wasn’t going to go to
Tower or a smaller company where he
wouldn’t really have the security he needed
for his family, until Carmine made it
(above) Jack added the word “hilarious” to the title, perhaps showing his dislike of drawing the Sandman series. Here possible some years later. I got onto one
(issue #6 splash, 1975), Wood did his final, very faithful inks over Jack, but was likely using assistants to help out. of my tangents, and I forgot what your
84
question was.
EVANIER: So did I. [laughter]
SPURLOCK: But they had the
utmost respect, absolutely, and
I’m glad to hear your quote about
Jack, even if he was being playful.
EVANIER: Well, they were being
playful, but obviously the respect
for the two guys for each other, they
were two guys who were completely
non-competitive. Neither one ever
took a job away from the other. I
love people who do stuff really,
really well and don’t flaunt it.
They’re just good. And Jack was
just good. If you’d gone up to Jack
and said, “Mr. Kirby, you’re my
second favorite artist after Gil
Kane”—I heard someone say this
one time. It didn’t bother Jack the
slightest bit. “Fine, Gil’s terrific!”
His ego did not require tearing
down anybody else’s. He was very
confident in himself. Now, one of
the other aspects to the relationship
between Mr. Wood and Mr. Kirby
was they were opposites. After
Wood left Marvel quite unhappily,
he stayed in contact with Jack. He
would phone him every month or
two. And one of the main people
who was telling Jack “you’re getting
screwed there” was Wood. And
later on he wrote a couple of essays
in which he made this quite clear.
SPURLOCK: He actually said that.
EVANIER: And every two or three
months, Wood would call Jack, tell
him what he was doing, and Jack
encouraged Wood, he encouraged
him to do Witzend. He encouraged
him to be, like the things we were
talking about earlier, being
entrepreneurial—and wished he
could do that himself, but his
lifestyle did not allow for that. Nor
did he really have the business
acumen for that.
SPURLOCK: This is the fiftieth
anniversary of Wood’s biggest
super-hero year. Fifty years ago
this year, Wally Wood created the We don’t see any Hal Foster influence in these 1972 Demon #1 pencils (it came mainly through the title character’s design),
but wow, this strip was awfully good, considering it was cooked up quickly in the wake of the Fourth World’s cancellation.
red Daredevil costume, and also
the cane cable that allowed him to THUNDER Agents at Marvel, and he considered placing them there,
swing through the city. Before that, the only way Daredevil could and chose not to, and he placed them over at Tower.
travel was swinging from a flagpole, and every time he jumped out a
window, he hoped and prayed there was a flagpole. [laughter] And it’s EVANIER: All right, I want to, I’m going to come back to David if we
amazing how many times there was a flagpole. [laughter] have time, but I want to talk to Marv a bit here. Marv, you’ve done
this panel before, and you’ve talked about how you and Len used to
EVANIER: When you’re blind, you do things like that. [laughter] go over and sit at the feet of Jack and such. Talk a little about later,
SPURLOCK: So in ’65 he did that, and then he went to Tower and when you were editor-in-chief at Marvel, and all of a sudden somebody
created the THUNDER Agents. He actually started creating the comes in to you one day and says, “Jack’s here.”
85
 human beings you will have ever met. Two
little kids come there, the first thing is, Roz
insists upon making sandwiches, so we
would have eaten before we go down to see
Eternals #3 cover pencils (1976), where Ikaris finally gets a costume.
Jack, so we ate. We had a nice time. We’d
(next page) What kid wouldn’t love to be able to talk to his pet dog?
Pencils from Kamandi #1 (1972).
go down. Again, imagine the person who is
drawing Galactus at the time—we saw
pages with Galactus months before they
came out—speaking to little kids, and
treating us like adults. It was amazing. So I
had been a fan, and I got to work with Jack
on covers. I got to work with—the only
one I suggested was one Captain America
cover. You don’t tell Jack what to do, but it
was the big anniversary of 1776 to 1976,
and I said, “We have to do a special cover.”
And he just did the most amazing stuff.
And I think he enjoyed working with me
because he knew me, and that was a little
bit of a difference. So I only worked with him
a few times before everything was moved
over to other editors and stuff like that.
EVANIER: Now, I remember you telling me
how much you loved the first Eternals
comic when it came in, didn’t you?
WOLFMAN: Well, the New Gods. That was
at DC.
EVANIER: Yeah, but I’m talking about
Marvel.
WOLFMAN: Well, the Eternals, I, Jack—
first of all, I’m a mythology nut, and Jack
created so much about that because of his
“Tales of Asgard” stuff, which was the most
amazing comic that I had ever seen, and I
loved the mythology he created. And I was
a huge fan of the New Gods artwork and all
of that, which, by the way, he had in his
house about eight years before it ever
appeared, because they were all on the walls
of his house. There were all those characters,
and he would tell us what the stories were
about, and we just kept waiting and waiting
and waiting to see when they would come
out. The Eternals was yet another take—we
were talking about revisiting concepts, but
taking it in a brand new direction yet
again. It was the most amazing stuff.
Unfortunately—I was a huge fan of his
stuff. Stan was an even larger fan. He really
WOLFMAN: Yeah, the, um… it was Stan. And he comes back in, and was. He loved Jack’s work, but not all of the editors did, not all of the
it was still very quiet, still fairly secret that Jack was coming back to other people, because his writing wasn’t the same flavor as the rest of
Marvel, which was the most amazing thing in the world. I was a huge the Marvel stuff, and I think there were a lot of people who may not
Jack Kirby fan from the point—I didn’t even know who the artist was, have appreciated the work he was doing, as well. But you look at it and
but there were—I read everything, and back in Adventure Comics was go, “Nobody has this imagination. Nobody draws to this scale. The
the “Green Arrow” strip which was one of the more boring strips ever giant characters, and then the little ones, and the endless backgrounds,
done, and suddenly there were a whole bunch of Green Arrow stories and the most amazing stuff ever.” But am I hitting anything that you
with giant arrows coming from outer space and all of this stuff, and I wanted me to?
went, “Hey, this is really good stuff.” Years later, I discovered it was Jack
Kirby. Or I’m reading a comic, so I bought Challengers of the Unknown. EVANIER: Yes, yes. [laughter] I remembered that discussion when the
And, again, no credits, and it’s by Jack and Wally. And, wow! Where first Eternals came in. First, you were so amazed at—Marv and I one
did this come from? This was like no other comic. So I’ve been a fan time were talking about the decision at DC to cancel the New Gods and
of his forever, and we went to his house off and on when we were 13, Forever People, and he said… [pauses]
14, and 15. He was an endless fount of information. The kindest WOLFMAN: Please tell me, I don’t know what I said.
86
EVANIER: You said one of the things that worked against Jack was he is about stuff I’ve worked on by other artists and stuff, but there’s a
was the only guy in the entire comics industry that you could say to Jack Kirby Thor that he drew for me back in the early ’60s, because I
him, “I’m canceling two of your books. Come up with two more thought Thor’s costume was brilliant and everything, and it’s a
tomorrow.” And he would replace them with two books that were beautiful, large picture of Thor, like this [gestures to indicate size]. And
worthy of publication. there’s one other picture, and that’s it. The only two things.
WOLFMAN: Yeah, Kamandi was one of my favorites—I think Kamandi EVANIER: What’s the other picture?
was one of the best kids’ books ever done. [applause] I’m watching it
WOLFMAN: It’s actually a Sunday Li’l Abner from 1938. I’m a huge
and I’m going, “This is the perfect kids’ book.” I got a chance to use
Li’l Abner fan, and it was a 1938 Li’l Abner where a mad scientist is
the Kamandi universe in the “Convergence” books a couple months
turning Li’l Abner into Superman. And it was August of 1938. And I
ago, and I was thrilled that they let me do it, because the giant ideas,
had to have that one up there.
I had a chance to revisit and reread all those issues. And it’s a great
kids’ book. And I think that people were looking for him to do the EVANIER: We only have a couple more minutes here. Rob, David, what
next New Gods for adults and all this, and he did this great kids’ thing would you show, the one thing you handed [to explain] Jack Kirby?
that’s the most imaginative type of book that kids should be looking Rob, what comic would you show to explain Kirby? David, I’m going
at because it can spark their imaginations. Unbelievable. In fact, that to ask you the same thing.
would go on to the Demon, as well. Yet
another genre. Jack was—
SPURLOCK: Kamandi was so strong that
after Jack returned to Marvel, it continued
on. There was a long run with Ayers on it
and Joe Kubert doing covers.
WOLFMAN: Yeah, but nobody had the
imagination of those stories, and the ability
to do—because Jack was willing to do
totally absurd concepts that would work in
the universe he’d create, and nobody else
could bring themselves to do these things,
which robs you of imagination. Jack would
just go for it. He would go for these absolutely
bizarro ideas and somehow make them
work. And most of us felt accomplished in
different fields, and would go, “We can’t do
that. How do you make that work? How do
you do it without getting people to laugh?”
And Jack wanted you to laugh at certain
sequences, and you did. It was amazing.
EVANIER: Let me ask you—here’s a left field
question, Marv. If you had to explain Jack
Kirby to somebody with one comic, what
would you hand them?
WOLFMAN: Ooh, wow. [pause] Thor. And
the reason for Thor was it was on a scale we
had never seen before in comics. It was
huge. Any of the Galactus material first run,
also, but Jack’s sense of scope. He did
phenomenal things in the Fantastic Four,
and he did phenomenal things in Captain
America and all that, but Thor seemed to
be—he loved mythology, as you know. He
had pictures of gods and everything all over
the house, and he loved all of that stuff, and
Thor gave him the first chance, I think, to do
in comics the stuff he loved, himself. And
you look at the “Tales of Asgard” material,
with the four-panel pages when he still could
have done nine panels or something, and I
think that would be it. But then you look at
Fighting American—a brilliant concept after
Captain America, now doing a parody,
almost, of it. There was nothing he didn’t
do. I have to say, in my office there’s only
two pieces of artwork that aren’t about what
I’ve done. So all of the artwork in my office
87
LIEFELD: Well, honestly, I would give them the Galactus saga, and I’ll LEVINE: Here’s how I would describe Jack Kirby. I wouldn’t hand
tell you why. I had a studio with Jim Valentino, a good friend of mine, anybody a comic book of his, because I don’t know anything about
in 1988-89. He did Shadowhawk and normalman, a very accomplished his comics. I knew Jack from a lawyer and a business position. For
cartoonist. We shared a studio, and the two things he did... In 1988, me, the way I would explain Jack Kirby is I would point to credits on
’89, [I’m] 20, 21, and he came in and he goes, “The music you listen to the screen of movies where he got credit, because I or somebody else
is crap. Here. Here’s all these Beatles albums. You have one week to negotiated with the studio to give him the proper credit. He cared
listen to them and give them back to me.” about credit, not money. [applause]
The next day, he came in and said, “Dude, you were raised on
SPURLOCK: Speaking of credit, Wally Wood didn’t get any credit on
George Pérez, and you don’t have to do full panels every time you draw
the Netflix Daredevil series, so I want to ask everyone to write letters
a comic.” He said, “Here’s Jack Kirby. Here’s Fantastic Four #1-100.
to Marvel and Netflix and say, “Hey, where’s Wally Wood’s credit on
Absorb this, and we’ll talk.” [laughter] He was right, and he showed me
the Netflix Daredevil series?” [applause]
that what George did for George Pérez—and George was brilliant
with full panels, and did what no one else can do with full panels, EVANIER: An enthusiastic but brief thank you to Mike Thibodeaux
because his mind and his cadence works that way—to imitate him is who’s here, for all his fine work. Everybody go spread the word of
Fool’s Gold. With Jack, [he] never put too much or too little into a Kirby. Those of you who came in to get seats for the next panel, I
panel. He always gave you exactly what that panel and that story hope you know who Jack Kirby was. If you don’t, you should find out.
needed, and he didn’t overload it. So when you look at these panels We’ll see you next year. [applause] ★
and the way they flowed—when I read the Fantastic
Four, you could see Jack becoming the Jack that we
all love... he was brilliant before then, but that
Fantastic Four stretch for me, was when you go,
“Holy crap.” He’s putting it together. I mean the
Silver Surfer, Galactus, the entire drama between
the Fantastic Four and Reed and the Ultimate
Nullifier, I think that is the ultimate imaginative,
super-hero/bad guy—and then Silver Surfer, this
new antagonist/protagonist character. It has the
cosmic, it came to the planet, so Jack did cosmic,
but it was grounded. When I read that, looking
back—I’d read it as a kid, but as a 21-year-old
absorbing it, and even now, it was brilliant. And Jim
Valentino told me, “Everything Marv and George
did, you don’t get there without Fantastic Four.”
WOLFMAN: Exactly.
LIEFELD: And I understood it. And he goes, “Rob,
look at this.” And every issue, “It’s Black Panther.
It’s the Inhumans. It’s Silver Surfer.” So my answer
to you is, it’s not one comic, it’s the Fantastic Four
run. See, I changed it from the Silver Surfer, now I’m
saying the Fantastic Four. Okay. I cheated, I’m sorry.
[laughter]
EVANIER: David?
SPURLOCK: Well, we never heard from Paul [Levine]
really.
PAUL LEVINE: That’s all right. [laughter]
SPURLOCK: Well, I think it’s an impossible question,
but when I ponder that question, I find that some of
the things I’m going through—the Galactus Trilogy,
and New Gods #6—that’s an all-time favorite. And
these are not the ultimate examples of his art, but
these are his great storytelling. These are his great
concepts and stories, themes that he’s telling that
I’m drawn to. Separate from that, I’m a big Wood
enthusiast, I would also say the work he did with
Wood: Challengers of the Unknown and Sky Masters.
I like to say that’s just the epitome of Americana in
comics, and compare it to film. Had there ever been
a film with John Wayne and Elvis in the same film,
or Elvis and Marilyn Monroe in the same film,
but in comics we actually had it. It was Jack Kirby
and Wally Wood in Sky Masters and Challengers of As the Black Panther is about to make his big-screen debut in Civil War, enjoy these pencils from #1 of his
the Unknown. 1977 solo book. Somehow Jack references both the 1970 film Catch-22 and TV’s Six Million Dollar Man here.
88
 www.kirbymuseum.org
Comics Combatives
Whew! In case you didn’t
know, we had a three-week
exhibit on New York City’s
Lower East Side this past
November. Thanks to our
friends at miLES City, who
helped us two years ago with
Prototype: Alpha, we were
able to set up a display at 103
Newsletter Allen Street. Titled “Comics
Combatives: Stories Told By
Jack Kirby Pfc.”, we soft-
opened on Veterans Day, Nov. 11th with high-quality replicas of
Kirby art painstakingly produced by Tom Kraft from assets in

our Kirby Digital Archive. “Combatives” is a military term for hand-to-hand

combat, so we featured Kirby art with fighting, action, and combat. We displayed
the complete story “Booby Trap!” from Foxhole #2 (1956), as well as pages from
“Street Code,” Kamandi, “The Losers,” Captain America (from the 1960s and
TJKC Edition
Spring 2016

The Jack Kirby Museum

and Research Center is
organized exclusively
for educational
purposes; more
specifically, to
promote and encourage
the study, understand-

Photos by Tom Kraft

ing, preservation and
appreciation of the
work of Jack Kirby by:
• illustrating the
scope of Kirby’s
multi-faceted career,
• communicating ’70s) and “Tales of Asgard.” John Morrow, Arlen Schumer, and Guy Dorian, Jr.,
the stories, all offered presentations; we hosted a “Comic Book Club” podcast; and a reading
inspirations and
influences of of Ger Apeldoorn’s play “The King And Me” with a killer performance by Geoff
Jack Kirby, Grimwood.
• celebrating the life Needless to say, we had an absolute blast, and are making plans to set up
of Jack Kirby and his another as soon as possible.
creations, and
• building under- In addition to everyone mentioned above, thanks so much
standing of comic to the Kirby Estate, the Joe Simon Estate, Lisa Rigoux-Hoppe, Annual Memberships
books and comic
book creators. Lois Dilivio, Harry Mendryk, Tom Morehouse, Steve Meyer, Glenda with one of these posters: $40*
To this end, the Hoppe, John O’Toole, Berkli Parc, and everyone who stopped by,
Museum will sponsor of course!
and otherwise support
study, teaching,
conferences,
discussion groups, We thank
exhibitions, displays, our new
publications and and
cinematic, theatrical
or multimedia returning Captain America—23” x 29” Strange Tales—23” x 29”
productions. members 1941 Captain America—14” x 23” Super Powers—17” x 22” color
for their
Jack Kirby Museum &
support: with one of these posters: $50*
Research Center
PO Box 5236
Hoboken, NJ 07030 USA
Glenn Garry, Bill Kruse, Dusty Miller, Richard Mancini,
Telephone: (201) 963-4383 Wiliam Turner, Glen Brunswick, Steve Sherman, Carlos Borrico,
Corrina DeJong, Curtis Gannon, Tomas Echegaray,
Nathan Webster, Guy Dorian, Clay Fernald, and Phillip Atcliffe
Thanks to the Kirby Estate
for their continued support! Thanks to the Kirby Estate for their continued support!
All characters TM © their respective
owners. *Please add $10 for memberships outside the US,
to cover additional postage costs. Posters come Marvel—14” x 23” Galactic Head— Incan Visitation—24” x 18” color
18” x 20” color
“as-is” and may not be in mint condition.

89
 Send letters to: THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR
Collector Comments c/o TwoMorrows Publishing • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614
E-mail: twomorrow@aol.com • See back issue excerpts at: www.twomorrows.com
What could be more personal than sending us a letter about this issue?
TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

[First off, let me fix The visual narration is

an error from last shaped, directed, “toned” by the
issue’s feature on the text. Lee makes the moment
Kirby Exhibit at CSUN. “less scary” by setting a time
On page 27, I incor- limit to the petrification, whereas
rectly labeled one of Kirby’s intention in showing us
the attendees of the a close-up of Don Blake’s face
opening reception as in panel 3 might’ve been to
Marty Pasko. It was underscore just at how much of
actually Elliot S! a loss he was in his professional
Maggin, who—like capacity as a physician to be
Pasko (thus my able to explain what he was
Elliot S! Maggin
error)—was a major looking at, or to be able to
Bronze Age DC present any kind of a hopeful
comics writer. My apologies, Elliot! Now letters:] frame of reference. Lee’s
dialogue “calms the waters” significantly, “reining inviting
About that Kirby interview in TJKC #66 by in” the chaos that one can imagine Kirby is glee- the viewer
Leonard Pitts, Jr.—is it my imagination or was fully stoking. (doesn’t all
that the greatest interview Kirby ever gave? “...I Same story, page 6, panel 2 (above): the true art?) to look more closely.
wrote it in my house...”! Wow. And Roz is such a temporary nature of the petrification is delivered Ted Krasniewski, Jersey City, NJ
telling presence; it makes all the difference in by word balloon, and isn’t supported by visual
the world that she’s there too, doesn’t it? evidence. Nowhere in the story is the temporary Another great issue—I don’t know how you
The Kate Willaert piece (“Kirby Without Words”) aspect of the transformation supported by any keep turning out such brilliant issues with such
was dandy. The concentration seemed to be on visual evidence of a victim of the Gargoyle return- regularity, but you do, and for that I’m grateful.
those instances where the visual and the textual ing to normal—suggesting that, as far as the Two minor points about the art attributions in
elements are at odds with each other, but what artist was concerned, no such conditional mar- issue #66:
about those instances where the imagery supplies ginalizing of the Gargoyle’s power was intended. Page 16: Shane Foley’s attribution of the
room for more than one textual extenuation (if Or how about this: FANTASTIC FOUR #33 (Dec. redrawn Thor figure is surely wrong—it’s the
that’s the proper term) of a situation? ’64): “Side-by-Side with Sub-Mariner,” page 7, most clear cut example of John Buscema art.
Is there, for example, the hint of an initially panels 2 and 3 (also above)? Look at the right arm and hand—100%
more viscerally horrific edge to Jack’s delineation Reed sprays the team with a chemical solution Buscema, even the feathering of the muscles,
of the events comprising Thor’s first encounter of his own concoction that’ll enable them to that’s not Johnny Romita. And as for the left arm.
with the Grey Gargoyle (JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY breathe underwater, and Ben dunks his head into And the editorial note on Page 59: That pasted-
#107, Aug. ’64) than Stan permitted? Look at a fish-filled tabletop aquarium to satisfy himself on Spider-Man... it’s not from the cover of
page 8, and the way the victims of the Gargoyle that it works. Lee’s dialogue has Reed encouraging SPIDER-MAN #19. The hands are in different
are given a reprieve from permanent petrification him to do it (“Don’t take my word for it! Try it positions, and the left leg is completely different.
through the contents of out!”), but what if Kirby (As is the right leg, more subtly.) In fact, none of
the dialogue balloons. meant to show us a it is the same. It is possible it was reworked but
Kirby doesn’t show us rigidly self-absorbed Reed it’s not a straight photostat. This erroneous attri-
the cab driver returning who fully expects the bution is something I’ve read several times, but
to normal. We learn that team to “take [his] word it just ain’t so.
his petrification isn’t for it,” dowsing them I love getting KIRBY COLLECTOR, and I prefer
permanent from what with his formula without the latest all-color editions, just in case anyone’s
Nurse Foster says to a moment’s forewarning, asking.
Doc Blake and what he, followed by a peeved Nigel Parkinson, UK
in turn, says to her—so Ben dunking his head in
that, for all we know, the fish tank just to I finally got around to picking up another issue
it’s Kirby’s intention to wash the dad-blamed (#63) of the JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR recently,
present to the reader (at goop off him, and in the and was pleasantly surprised to see it remains
least at this point of the process, discovering that as interesting as ever. How does a publication
story) the possibility that the stuff—holy cow!— devoted to just one man do it? This is surely not
what has happened to actually works?! just a testament to Kirby’s unparalleled creativity
the cab driver—and to It’s a relatively subtle but also to the endless enthusiasm of his fans
all the Gargoyle’s victims—is something with change, granted, but I think it qualifies as a viable and the publisher.
fatal consequences! Lee has Blake report to Jane “alternate” reading. I was amazed to see this edition included
that he detects a very faint heartbeat from within These examples aren’t about dissonance general plot outlines from Lee, which seemed
the petrified figure of the cab driver. For all we between word and picture, but about alternative remarkably consistent with comments he was
know, Kirby was showing us Blake attempting to texts possible to existing narrative imagery; one making in the mid-late 1960s. But where did
discover a heartbeat to no avail! more category of “Kirby Without Words”— they come from? Were these some of the ones
90
found by Kirby’s estate and given to Mark Of course, none of this spoiled my reading Some peaks and valleys with TJKC #66.
Evanier that included the synopsis for AVENGERS experience, though I feel sorry for newer readers I loved the look at changed Kirby covers. My
#4? I did email Mark about those once, but he who may be getting an incomplete (or some- first thought was, if the drawings required alter-
said they were provided to him by the Kirby fam- times inaccurate) picture. I’ll also admit that it ations, why wait until the ink stage to make them?
ily under restrictions that meant he wasn’t able didn’t leave me feeling particularly confident that Many seemed minor or puzzling. Not significantly
to publish them in full. Is this no longer the case the upcoming Kirby/Lee themed issue would be better because of the last-minute revisions.
now that the Kirby court case has been finalized as well-researched as I’d like, but I still have a Really, only the Swordsman’s headgear, on
with Marvel? If so, will we see more of them? good feeling about it and I’ve already ordered AVENGERS #19, seems an outright improvement.
Another highlight for me was Richard Kolkman’s my copy. I had to laugh that the Comics Code thought
observation that, by issue #116, Marvel was Ross Morrison, Western Australia Kang’s enlarged hand (AVENGERS #23) was too
actually seeking FF plots from readers. It was threatening. What, fifteen times normal size is
both funny and sad. I couldn’t help but think it As always I loved the latest issue, #65. But overly menacing, but ten times is okay?
would have been a great opportunity to insert a please do NOT shelve your chronological exami- One cover was actually worse. The FF #79, as
relevant quote from Kirby himself, as cited in Will nation of Jack and Stan’s comments about their printed, looked open. The reprint, with added
Murray’s excellent article from issue #54: respective contributions. I was anxiously awaiting blurbs over the art and moved down to fit a new
“An idea can come from me, it can come from that issue and if you read various Facebook format, seemed a lesser version.
Stan, it can come from a reader. Sometimes groups there is still tremendous interest in setting Also very much enjoyed the forum on Jack’s
we’ll get ideas expressed in letters from readers the record straight. Please reconsider. writing. Personally, I rarely had a problem with it.
that we utilize in the comic. We’ll build a plot Don Rhoden, Plattsmouth, NE Oh, I remember a dubious caption with “Solar
around that type of story.” (By the way, Murray [Not to worry, Don. I’m still planning to do that soap suds!” in CAPTAIN VICTORY, but so what? It
gets my vote as a consultant on any future issue examination. But it’ll be such a labor-intensive worked for me in nearly all of his solo books. It
that may concentrate on the Lee/Kirby relation- issue, that it may be 2017—Jack’s centennial was exactly the story and dialogue as Jack
ship, as he appears from his articles to have an year—before it sees print, though. Gotta make desired it told. So, no masking meaning or intent
extraordinary knowledge not just of Kirby, but sure my research makes all our readers— by altering what he wanted the characters to say
also his old partner.) especially Ross Morrison above—happy!] and the story to ultimately convey.
This brings me to my only real qualm about I’d rather have a story told intact than veering
this issue. While recognizing it is a fan magazine, #66 was your most jam-packed issue in many off in directions never intended, or in conflict
it could really have benefitted from some years, I think. Well done. I’m really liking the focus with the plot as submitted. I was happy Jack had
stronger editing. There were simply too many on deconstructing the Marvel Method to see a his own voice and direction.
times when feature writers made assumptions or little more clear-headedly who did what. Doubt I could have loved ETERNALS, OMAC,
missed their chance to help construct a consis- As I’m tallying up comments: KAMANDI and other solo favorites more had
tent history. others been enlisted to spice up the dialogue and,
An example: Mark Alexander mentions com- in so doing, change what Jack wished to impart.
ments by Lee that he killed off the Bucky Barnes When it comes to “writing,” what is meant?
character because he abhorred the idea of a The plot? The direction? The dialogue? Jack
‘teen side-kick’. He then asks (if this was the phrased what he wanted to emphasize in his own
case) why the Hulk and Captain America would way. Why should that be seen as a detriment
get teen side-kicks. Lee, of course, specifically instead of a plus?
addressed this issue (at least in relation to why When I hear complaints—and everyone’s
he accepted Rick Jones in the HULK strip) way entitled to their opinion—I wonder if someone
back in ORIGINS OF MARVEL COMICS. This was would’ve really preferred Jack to not have his
a great opportunity to provide some cross-refer- own voice or forum. Would they prefer him less
encing. After all, why (kind of) quote Lee to set involved; a mere illustrator? No concepts, input,
up the question, then exclude Lee’s explanation direction or captions? At the mercy of other writ-
(and in a Marvel themed issue to boot)? ers and editors? Following rather than leading?
For that matter, Kirby himself is on record as Few could have accomplished as much alone.
stating the decision to kill Bucky wasn’t his. Why Liked the Kirby interview—though I diverged
not mention it for readers who are unaware of with portions—in that it was Jack opening up
this? [Yet Jack states this issue that Bucky’s about his views. To Jack, in a collaboration, his
death was indeed his idea. – Editor] plot was the script. I disagree. He innovated
Another example involves Mark’s suggestion Page 8: That FF #20, p. 17 panel at the very structure and direction, but not the actual words
(presented as fact?) that Don Heck was respon- bottom? Those erasures are not adequately in the dialogue balloons. A major contribution, no
sible for having a cabinet used as a weapon described. It’s not Reed and Ben’s faces— it’s question, but not the entire equation. I think both
against Iron Man in his debut tale, with Lee adding full body shots of all four characters. Johnny is men deserve admiration and acknowledgement
a comment about it being weighed with rocks. to the far far right, between Ben’s legs. Sue is in such a co-creator situation.
Larry Lieber was the scripter for this tale (he half-hidden behind Ben’s right foot. Same for the assertion his “Spiderman” con-
even named Tony Stark). And Lieber is on record Glen David Gold cept was “practically the same” (as the popular
as stating he did full scripts (in TwoMorrows’ Lee/Ditko rendition). No, it wasn’t: a child with a
ALTER EGO #2 as one example), so why attribute I am skimming the new issue (#64) of the magic ring and far different costume. Jack might
the idea to Heck? KIRBY COLLECTOR, and noticed your request for have suggested the name or brought an old idea
Finally, Shane Foley mentions on page 37 that themes for upcoming issues. Kirby was the in redrawn. But it wasn’t close, aside from the
the original pencils for page 13 of FANTASTIC master of dynamic figures. How about an entire title, to what was accepted and became a hit.
FOUR #61 confirm previous speculation that issue devoted to fights! Fight scenes between I also had issues in a few other areas, John:
Romita added the heads of Peter Parker and super-heroes, good guys, bad guys, robots, Your assertion that Jack’s “Spiderman,” if
Mary Jane in a crowd scene after Kirby had soldiers, gangsters, molls. accepted and published, could have been a
completed the page. This could have been nicely How do they compare? Did Kirby show the moderate success, based on all the concepts in
tied in with a quote from Lee talking about mak- same poses over and over, or was he inventing that era going over well. Well, remember, there
ing this very change during a 1968 interview new battles every time? How did he show mass was also Dr. Droom and Ant-Man. Neither, at the
(published by TwoMorrows in the STAN LEE and weight, and power? What vantage point did time, set the world on fire.
UNIVERSE). Again, this would have made perfect he favor, and did this change during his career? Plus, if it was that close to the Fly in concept,
sense in a Marvel themed issue. Alan Spinney, Moncton, NB, CANADA maybe it would have been legal threats that kept

91
it a short-run hero? something that few others even dared to try to dupli-
I, too, would love to see pages from Jack’s aborted cate. It was so individual, so iconoclastic, so... so #67 Credits:
version, but don’t see how they would enhance either “Jack”! NO ONE else could’ve gotten away with what John Morrow, Editor/Designer
Stan or Jack in any way. It would contradict Jack in is to me my all-time favorite “Jack line”—not the oft- Eric Nolen-Weathington, Proofreader
being “practically the same.” Likewise, how could repeated but still worthy “Don’t ask... just BUY it!,” but THANKS TO OUR CONTRIBUTORS:
Jack be drawing an entirely different tale if Stan was the caption in “Genocide Spray” (JIMMY OLSEN #143) Jim Amash • Heritage Auctions
the one who handed the well-known story off to him? that follows: C.C. Beck • Mark Blackney
Stan, along with Steve Ditko, may be the co-creator, Jerry Boyd • Scott Bukatman
but that doesn’t mean Lee’s version of the events is Norris Burroughs • Paul Chadwick
historically accurate either. Jon B. Cooke • Steve DeJarnatt
Jean Depelley • Steve Ditko
The other article where I found little evidence and Shel Dorf • Mark Evanier • Lee Falk
lots of theories was, again, about Spider-Man: Jack’s Barry Forshaw • Joe Frank
three 1963 published stories featuring the character Glen David Gold • David Hamilton
being proof of anything. Doug Harvey • Charles Hatfield
Some were asserted to have been meant for else- Rand Hoppe • Dennis Johnson
where. But the lead feature in AMAZING FANTASY Lisa Kirby • Sean Kleefeld • Tom Kraft
Richard Kyle • Paul S. Levine
wasn’t six pages, nor was the “Torch” strip in Rob Liefeld • Earl Martin
STRANGE TALES. So, the notion they signify something Adam McGovern • Mark Miller
more is inconclusive at best. Andre Molotiu • Will Murray
To me, Jack drew them because they all guest- Steve Robertson • Steve Roden
starred the Fantastic Four (or, with the second Vince Saunders • Julie Schwartz
David Schwartz • Richard A. Scott
STRANGE TALES ANNUAL, two members thereof)— Joe Simon • David Spurlock
that simple. Jim Sweeters • Carl Taylor
No Jonah, Aunt May, or classmates. A mere glimpse “You can bet your Aunt Mamie’s double-dyed doilies Mike Thibodeaux • Matt Turner
of Peter Parker. Otherwise, entirely costumed action. they have!!” To this day that line struck me as so out- James Van Hise • Marv Wolfman
Additionally, even had Jack been called back on rageous (not to mention memorable), that I have my Ray Wyman Jr. • Tom Ziuko
SPIDER-MAN, on a subsequent chapter, Stan and lead heroine in my currently in post-production mobi- Michael Zuccaro, and of course The
Kirby Estate, the Jack Kirby Museum
Steve would still be the co-creators. series/no-budget DVD movie THE ADVENTURES OF (www.kirbymuseum.org), and
I don’t agree that Jack’s rendition of Spider-Man in KAITLYN “KITTY KAT” KAY, (a.k.a. KKKay) utter that very whatifkirby.com
the wedding of Reed and Sue was a Ditko paste-up to line in her Facebook trailer. (I would’ve LOVED to’ve
placate Steve in some way. The character had been seen THAT pop up in one of Jack’s margin notes that Contribute!
drawn by Jack in other comics (AVENGERS #3; the he gave ’ol Stan in their stories back in the day. Must The Jack Kirby Collector is put together
covers to AVENGERS #11 and TALES TO ASTONISH be how they ‘tawked’ in ol’ Flatbush, eh wot? with submissions from Jack’s fans
#57), as had Ditko’s Dr. Strange (JOURNEY INTO 2) But it wasn’t just his dialogue/captions overall around the world. We don’t pay for
MYSTERY #108 and FF #27). that made young kidlet moi take notice. You mentioned submissions, but if we print art or arti-
Millie and Patsy were also paste-ups by other his cover blurbs—NOBODY wrote ‘last panel/next cles you submit, we’ll send you a free
copy of the issue it appears in. Submit
artists in that FF ANNUAL #3. Could it be Stan simply issue blurbs’ like Jack. See JIMMY OLSEN #141, and
art & articles by e-mail to:
wanted them to look more like their stylized render- especially MISTER MIRACLE #4—never saw the next store@twomorrows.com
ings elsewhere? issue VILLAIN try to entice you into buying an issue
Plus, Jack redrew part of the cover to SPIDER-MAN before, hah? Which leads me to one of the few brick-
#10. So, it wasn’t unprecedented, just not as impres- bats I wanna send here—and no, I’m not blaming this
sive. specifically on you, John; it looks like policy here.
At least we agree on the main point, John: “While To wit: considering all the complaints I read at the
Jack (and Joe) fit that description for a Spiderman, it’s “Jack Kirby: King of Comics” FB group I’m a member
not the same character. The credit should go to Lee of, not to mention numerous other places about the
and Ditko.” Murphy Anderson-heads added throughout Jack’s JO
I’m delighted Marvel finally acknowledges Jack’s books (ignoring, ironically enough, the one added to
massive contributions to their success. It’s simply that LOIS LANE artist John Rosenberger’s Superman in the
I don’t want to see them shortchange anyone else in example of the JLA printed—it WASN’T JUST Jack’s
the process. That’s why it’s nice to see Stan and Steve heads, folks!), catalogists don’t seem to have any trou-
now credited for Spider-Man. ble altering Jack’s INTENDED titles for some of the
If someone wishes to argue that Jack brought the issues he wrote, upon reflection. (E.g. the KAMANDI
name to Marvel, fine. But the finished character, the tale referred to herein as “The Monster Fetish” was
one who was a hit, was far more than just a name. ACTUALLY titled by Jack himself, via ‘next issue blurb’
Joe Frank, Scottsdale, AZ “The United States of Lions.” Similarly, MM #15’s “The
Secret Gun” as listed was actually called by Jack “The
Some random thoughts inspired by your recent Real Big Barda.”) Now I realize some of Jack’s blurbs NEXT ISSUE: #68 looks at KEY
“Kirby @ DC” issue (#62): didn’t totally sync up to what he later wrote when he KIRBY CHARACTERS! We go decade-
1) To say that Jack’s writing style was idiosyncratic did the actual story... but fair is fair, right? by-decade to examine pivotal char-
acters Jack created throughout his
was putting it mildly. Jack plotted like no one else, Another amazing issue.
career (including some that might
wrote scripts like no one else, and his dialogue was Darrell McNeil, Los Angeles, CA
surprise you)! Plus there’s a look at
what would’ve happened if Kirby
Here’s a tentative list of upcoming themes, but we treat KIRBY’S WORLD THAT’S COMING! had never left Marvel Comics for DC,
these themes very loosely, and anything you submit may fit How Jack looked into his crystal ball to predict the future! how Jack’s work has been repack-
somewhere. So get writing, and send us copies of your art! aged over the decades, the 2015
KIRBY’S ONE-SHOTS!
GOT A THEME IDEA? PLEASE WRITE US! The best throwaway Kirby characters and concepts!
Kirby Tribute Panel from WonderCon
(featuring NEAL ADAMS, DARWYN
KIRBY & LEE: ’STUF SAID! (It’s back!) COOKE, FRED VAN LENTE, CRYSTAL
KIRBY’S PARTNERS!
Stan & Jack’s comments about their Marvel Universe work! SKILLMAN, and LEN WEIN), MARK
Simon, Lee, Royer, Thibodeaux, Sinnott, Kolleda, even Roz!
KIRBY’S ORIGIN STORIES!
ANTI-LIFE! EVANIER and other regular colum-
All about death in the Kirbyverse! nists, and galleries of unseen Kirby
Examining the beginnings of Jack and his characters!
pencil art!! It ships July 2016.
92
 SAVE

TwoMorrows SPRING 2016 UPDATE

WHE %
ORD
ONL ER
15
N YO
INE!
U

COMIC BOOK FEVER

GEORGE KHOURY (author of The Extraordinary Works of Alan Moore and Kimota: The Miracleman Companion) presents a
“love letter” to his personal golden age of comics, 1976-1986, covering all the things that made those comics great—the top
artists, the coolest stories, and even the best ads! Remember the days when every comic book captured your imagination, and
took you to new and exciting places? When you didn’t apologize for loving the comic books and creators that gave you bliss?
COMIC BOOK FEVER captures that era, when comics offered all different genres to any kid with a pocketful of coins, at local
establishments from 7-Elevens to your local drug store. Inside this full-color hardcover are new articles, interviews, and images
about the people, places, characters, titles, moments, and good times that inspired and thrilled us in the Bronze Age: NEAL
ADAMS, JOHN ROMITA, GEORGE PÉREZ, MARV WOLFMAN, ALAN MOORE, DENNY O’NEIL, JIM STARLIN, JOSÉ LUIS
GARCÍA-LÓPEZ, THE HERNANDEZ BROTHERS, THE BUSCEMA BROTHERS, STAN LEE, JACK DAVIS, JACK KIRBY, KEVIN
EASTMAN, CHRIS CLAREMONT, GERRY CONWAY, FRANK MILLER—and that’s just for starters. It covers the phenoms that
delighted Baby Boomers, Generation X, and beyond: UNCANNY X-MEN, NEW TEEN TITANS, TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES,
LOVE AND ROCKETS, CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, SUPERMAN VS. SPIDER-MAN, ARCHIE COMICS, HARVEY COMICS,
KISS, STAR WARS, ROM, HOSTESS CAKE ADS, GRIT(!), and other milestones! So take a trip back in time to re-experience
those epic stories, and feel the heat of COMIC BOOK FEVER once again! With cover art and introduction by ALEX ROSS.
(240-page FULL-COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95 • (Digital Edition) $12.95 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-063-2 • SHIPS JUNE 2016!
GO TO www.twomorrows.com FOR A FREE PREVIEW!

AL PLASTINO:
LAST SUPERMAN STANDING
With a comics career dating back to 1941, including inking early issues of Captain America, AL PLASTINO
All characters TM & © their respective owners.

was one of the last surviving penciler/inkers of his era. Laboring uncredited on SUPERMAN for two
decades (1948-1968), he co-created SUPERGIRL, BRAINIAC, and the LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES,
drawing those characters’ first appearances, and illustrating the initial comics story to feature
KRYPTONITE. He was called upon to help maintain the DC Comics house-style by redrawing other
artists’ Superman heads, most notoriously on JACK KIRBY’S JIMMY OLSEN series, much to his cha-
grin. His career even included working on classic daily and Sunday newspaper strips like NANCY, JOE
PALOOKA, BATMAN, and others. With a Foreword by PAUL LEVITZ, this book (by EDDY ZENO,
author of CURT SWAN: A LIFE IN COMICS) was completed just weeks before Al’s recent passing. In
these pages, the artist remembers both his struggles and triumphs in the world of comics, cartooning and
beyond. A near-century of insights shared by Al, his family, and contemporaries ALLEN BELLMAN,
NICK CARDY, JOE GIELLA, and CARMINE INFANTINO—along with successors JON BOGDANOVE,
GO TO JERRY ORDWAY, AND MARK WAID—paint a layered portrait of Plastino’s life and career. And a
twomorrows.com wealth of illustrations show just how influential a figure he is in the history of comics.
FOR A
FREE PREVIEW! (112-page trade paperback) $17.95 • (Digital Edition) $5.95 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-066-3 • SHIPS APRIL 2016!
 C o l l e c t o r

The JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR

magazine (edited by JOHN
MORROW) celebrates the life
and career of the “King” of
comics through INTERVIEWS
WITH KIRBY and his contem-
poraries, FEATURE ARTICLES, COLLECTED VOL. 2 COLLECTED VOL. 3 COLLECTED VOL. 6 COLLECTED VOL. 7

DIGITAL
RARE AND UNSEEN KIRBY Reprints JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR Reprints JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR Reprints JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR Reprints JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR
#10-12, and a tour of Jack’s home! #13-15, plus new art! #23-26, plus new art! #27-30, plus new art!
ART, plus regular columns by
MARK EVANIER (160-page trade paperback) $17.95 (176-page trade paperback) $19.95 (288-page trade paperback) $29.95 (288-page trade paperback) $29.95
ISBN: 9781893905016 ISBN: 9781893905023 ISBN: 9781605490038 ISBN: 9781605490120
and others, Diamond Order Code: MAR042974 Diamond Order Code: APR043058 Diamond Order Code: JUN084280 Diamond Order Code: DEC084286
and presentation of KIRBY’S UNINKED
NS
PENCILS from the 1960s-80s (from EDITIO BLE
photocopies preserved in the KIRBY AVAILANLY Go online for other issues, and an ULTIMATE BUNDLE
ARCHIVES). Now in FULL-COLOR, it FOR O $4.95
showcases Kirby’s art even better! $1.95— with all the issues at HALF-PRICE!

KIRBY COLLECTOR #47 KIRBY COLLECTOR #48 KIRBY COLLECTOR #49 KIRBY COLLECTOR #50 KIRBY COLLECTOR #51
KIRBY’S SUPER TEAMS, from kid gangs KIRBYTECH ISSUE, spotlighting Jack’s high- WARRIORS, spotlighting Thor (with a look KIRBY FIVE-OH! covers the best of Kirby’s Bombastic EVERYTHING GOES issue, with
and the Challengers, to Fantastic Four, tech concepts, from Iron Man’s armor and at hidden messages in BILL EVERETT’s 50-year career in comics: BEST KIRBY a wealth of great submissions that couldn’t
X-Men, and Super Powers, with unseen Machine Man, to the Negative Zone and Thor inks), Sgt. Fury, Challengers of the STORIES, COVERS, CHARACTER DESIGNS, be pigeonholed into a “theme” issue!
1960s Marvel art, a rare KIRBY interview, beyond! Includes a rare KIRBY interview, Unknown, Losers, and others! Includes a UNUSED ART, and profiles of/commentary Includes a rare KIRBY interview, new inter-
MARK EVANIER’s column, two pencil art MARK EVANIER’s column, two pencil art rare KIRBY interview, interviews with by the 50 PEOPLE MOST INFLUENCED BY views with JIM LEE and ADAM HUGHES,
galleries, complete 1950s story, author galleries, complete 1950s story, TOM JERRY ORDWAY and GRANT MORRISON, KIRBY’S WORK! Plus a 50-PAGE PENCIL MARK EVANIER’s column, huge pencil art
JONATHAN LETHEM on his Kirby influ- SCIOLI interview, Kirby Tribute Panel (with MARK EVANIER’s column, pencil art gallery, ART GALLERY and a COLOR SECTION! galleries, a complete Golden Age Kirby
ence, interview with JOHN ROMITA, JR. ADAMS, PÉREZ, and ROMITA), and covers a complete 1950s story, wraparound Thor Kirby cover inked by DARWYN COOKE, story, two COLOR UNPUBLISHED KIRBY
on his Eternals work, and more! inked by TERRY AUSTIN and TOM SCIOLI! cover inked by JERRY ORDWAY, and more! and introduction by MARK EVANIER. COVERS, and more!
(84 tabloid pages) SOLD OUT (84 tabloid pages) SOLD OUT (84 tabloid pages) $9.95 (168-page trade paperback) $24.95 (84 tabloid pages) $9.95
(Digital Edition) $3.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95 (Digital Edition) $7.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95
ISBN: 9781893905894

KIRBY COLLECTOR #52 KIRBY COLLECTOR #53 KIRBY COLLECTOR #54 KIRBY COLLECTOR #55 KIRBY COLLECTOR #56
Spotlights Kirby’s most obscure work: an THE MAGIC OF STAN & JACK! New inter- STAN & JACK PART TWO! More on the “Kirby Goes To Hollywood!” SERGIO “Unfinished Sagas”—series, stories, and
UNUSED THOR STORY, BRUCE LEE comic, view with STAN LEE, walking tour of New co-creators of the Marvel Universe, final ARAGONÉS and MELL LAZARUS recall arcs Kirby never finished. TRUE DIVORCE
animation work, stage play, unaltered pages York where Lee & Kirby lived and worked, interview (and cover inks) by GEORGE Kirby’s BOB NEWHART TV show cameo, CASES, RAAM THE MAN MOUNTAIN,
from KAMANDI, DEMON, DESTROYER re-evaluation of the “Lost” FF #108 story TUSKA, differences between KIRBY and comparing the recent STAR WARS films to KOBRA, DINGBATS, a complete story from
DUCK, and more, including a feature (including a new page that just surfaced), DITKO’S approaches, WILL MURRAY on New Gods, RUBY & SPEARS interviewed, SOUL LOVE, complete Boy Explorers story,
examining the last page of his final issue “What If Jack Hadn’t Left Marvel In 1970?,” the origin of the FF, the mystery of Marvel Jack’s encounters with FRANK ZAPPA, PAUL two Kirby Tribute Panels, MARK EVANIER
of various series BEFORE EDITORIAL plus MARK EVANIER’s regular column, a cover dates, MARK EVANIER’s regular col- McCARTNEY, and JOHN LENNON, MARK and other regular columnists, pencil art
TAMPERING (with lots of surprises)! Color Kirby pencil art gallery, a complete Golden umn, a Kirby pencil art gallery, a complete EVANIER’s regular column, a Kirby pencil galleries, and more, with Kirby’s “Galaxy
Kirby cover inked by DON HECK! Age Kirby story, and more, behind a color Golden Age Kirby story, and more, plus art gallery, a Golden Age Kirby story, and Green” cover inked by ROYER, and the
(84 tabloid pages) $9.95 Kirby cover inked by GEORGE PÉREZ! Kirby back cover inked by JOE SINNOTT! more! Kirby cover inked by PAUL SMITH! unseen cover for SOUL LOVE #1!
(Digital Edition) $3.95 (84 tabloid pages) $10.95 (84 tabloid pages) $10.95 (84 tabloid pages) $10.95 (84 tabloid pages) $10.95
(Digital Edition) $3.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95
 KIRBY COLLECTOR #57 KIRBY COLLECTOR #58 KIRBY COLLECTOR #59 KIRBY COLLECTOR #60 KIRBY COLLECTOR #61
“Legendary Kirby”—how Jack put his spin LEE & KIRBY: THE WONDER YEARS! “Kirby Vault!” Rarities from the “King” of FANTASTIC FOUR FOLLOW-UP to #58’s JACK KIRBY: WRITER! Examines quirks of
on classic folklore! TONY ISABELLA on Traces their history at Marvel, and what led comics: Personal correspondence, private THE WONDER YEARS! Never-seen FF Kirby’s wordsmithing, from the FOURTH
SATAN’S SIX (with Kirby’s unseen layouts), them to conceive the Fantastic Four in photos, collages, rare Marvelmania art, wraparound cover, interview between FF WORLD to ROMANCE and beyond!
Biblical inspirations of DEVIL DINOSAUR, 1961. Also documents the evolution of the bootleg album covers, sketches, transcript inkers JOE SINNOTT and DICK AYERS, Lengthy Kirby interview, MARK EVANIER
THOR through the eyes of mythologist FF throughout the 1960s, with plenty of of a 1969 VISIT TO THE KIRBY HOME rare LEE & KIRBY interview, comparison of and other columnists, LARRY LIEBER’s
JOSEPH CAMPBELL, a complete Golden Kirby art, plus previously unknown details (where Jack answers the questions YOU’D a Jack and Stan FF story conference to scripting for Jack at 1960s Marvel Comics,
Age Kirby story, rare Kirby interview, MARK about Lee and Kirby’s working relationship, ask in ’69), MARK EVANIER, pencil art Stan’s final script and Jack’s penciled pages, RAY ZONE on 3-D work with Kirby, com-
EVANIER and our other regular columnists, and their eventual parting of ways in 1970. from the FOURTH WORLD, CAPTAIN MARK EVANIER and other columnists, paring STEVE GERBER’s Destroyer Duck
pencil art from ETERNALS, DEMON, NEW AMERICA, MACHINE MAN, SILVER gallery of KIRBY FF ART, pencils from scripts to Jack’s pencils, Kirby’s best promo
(160-page trade paperback) $19.95
GODS, THOR, and Jack’s ATLAS cover! SURFER GRAPHIC NOVEL, and more! BLACK PANTHER, SILVER SURFER, & more! blurbs, Kirby pencil art gallery, & more!
(Digital Edition) $7.95
(84 tabloid pages) $10.95 ISBN: 9781605490380 (104 pages with COLOR) $10.95 (104 pages with COLOR) $10.95 (100 FULL-COLOR pages) $10.95
(Digital Edition) $3.95 Diamond Order Code: SEP111248 (Digital Edition) $4.95 (Digital Edition) $4.95 (Digital Edition) $4.95

KIRBY COLLECTOR #62 KIRBY COLLECTOR #63 KIRBY COLLECTOR #64 KIRBY COLLECTOR #65 KIRBY COLLECTOR #66
KIRBY AT DC! Kirby interview, MARK MARVEL UNIVERSE! Featuring MARK SUPER-SOLDIERS! We declassify Captain ANYTHING GOES (AGAIN)! A potpourri DOUBLE-TAKES ISSUE! Features oddities,
EVANIER and our other regular columnists, ALEXANDER’s pivotal Lee/Kirby essay “A America, Fighting American, Sgt. Fury, The issue, with anything and everything from coincidences, and reworkings by both Jack
updated “X-Numbers” list of Kirby’s DC Universe A’Borning,” MARK EVANIER Losers, Pvt. Strong, Boy Commandos, and Jack’s 50-year career, including a head-to- and Stan Lee: the Galactus Origin you
assignments (revealing some surprises), interviews ROY THOMAS, STAN GOLD- a tribute to Simon & Kirby! PLUS: a Kirby head comparison of the genius of KIRBY didn’t see, Ditko’s vs. Kirby’s Spider-Man,
JERRY BOYD’s insights on Kirby’s DC BERG and JOE SINNOTT, a look at key interview about Captain America, MARK and ALEX TOTH! Plus a lengthy KIRBY how Lee and Kirby viewed “writing” dif-
work, a look at KEY 1970s EVENTS IN late-1970s, ’80s, and ’90s events in Kirby’s EVANIER and other columnists, key 1940s- interview, MARK EVANIER and our other ferently, plus a rare KIRBY interview,
JACK’S LIFE AND CAREER, Challengers vs. life and career, STAN LEE script pages, ’50s events in Kirby’s career, unseen pencils regular columnists, unseen and unused MARK EVANIER and our other regular
the FF, pencil art galleries from FOREVER unseen Kirby pencils and unused art from and unused art from OMAC, SILVER STAR, Kirby art from JIMMY OLSEN, KAMANDI, columnists, unseen and unused pencil art
PEOPLE, OMAC, and THE DEMON, Kirby THOR, NICK FURY AGENT OF SHIELD, CAPTAIN AMERICA (in the 1960s AND MARVELMANIA, his COMIC STRIP & from FANTASTIC FOUR, 2001, CAPTAIN
cover inked by MIKE ROYER, and more! and FANTASTIC FOUR, and more! ’70s), the LOSERS, & more! KIRBY cover! ANIMATION WORK, and more! VICTORY, BRUCE LEE, & more!
(100 FULL-COLOR pages) $10.95 (100 FULL-COLOR pages) $10.95 (100 FULL-COLOR pages) $10.95 (100 FULL-COLOR pages) $10.95 (100 FULL-COLOR pages) $10.95
(Digital Edition) $4.95 (Digital Edition) $4.95 (Digital Edition) $4.95 (Digital Edition) $4.95 (Digital Edition) $4.95

CAPTAIN VICTORY:
JACK KIRBY GRAPHITE EDITION
CHECKLIST: GOLD KIRBY’s original CAPTAIN VICTORY
Lists EVERY KIRBY COMIC, GRAPHIC NOVEL presented as created in
BOOK, UNPUBLISHED 1975 (before being modified for the
WORK and more! 1980s Pacific Comics series), reproduced
(128-page trade paperback) from his uninked pencil art! Includes
$14.95 Jack’s unused CAPTAIN VICTORY
(Digital Edition) $5.95 SCREENPLAY, unseen art, an historical
ISBN: 9781605490052 overview to put it in perspective!
Diamond Order Code: (52-page comic book) $5.95
MAR084008 (Digital Edition) $2.95

KIRBY COLLECTOR SPECIAL SILVER STAR:

EDITION GRAPHITE EDITION
Compiles the “extra” First conceptualized in the 1970s as a
new material from movie screenplay, SILVER STAR was
COLLECTED JACK adapted by JACK KIRBY as a six-issue KIRBY UNLEASHED (REMASTERED)
KIRBY COLLECTOR mini-series for Pacific Comics in the The fabled 1971 KIRBY UNLEASHED PORTFOLIO, completely remastered!
VOLUMES 1-7, in 1980s, as his final, great comics series. Spotlights some of KIRBY’s finest art from all eras of his career, including 1930s
one huge Digital The entire six-issue run is collected here, pencil work, unused strips, illustrated World War II letters, 1950s pages, unpublished
Edition! Includes a reproduced from his uninked PENCIL 1960s Marvel pencil pages and sketches, and Fourth World pencil art (done
fan’s private tour of ART, showing Kirby’s work in its undilut- expressly for this portfolio in 1970)! We’ve gone back to the original art to ensure
the Kirbys’ home and ed, raw form! Also included is Kirby’s the best reproduction possible, and MARK EVANIER and STEVE SHERMAN have
more than 200 pieces ILLUSTRATED SILVER STAR MOVIE updated the Kirby biography from the original printing, and added a new Foreword
of Kirby art not pub- SCREENPLAY, never-seen SKETCHES, explaining how this portfolio came to be! PLUS: We’ve recolored the original color
lished outside of PIN-UPS, and an historical overview to plates, and added EIGHT NEW BLACK-&-WHITE PAGES, plus EIGHT NEW COLOR
those volumes! put it all in perspective! PAGES, including Jack’s four 1972 GODS posters, and four extra Kirby color pieces,
all at tabloid size!
(120-page Digital (160-page trade paperback) $19.95 • (Digital Edition) $7.95
Edition) $5.95 ISBN: 9781893905559 • Diamond Order Code: JAN063367 (60-page tabloid with COLOR) SOLD OUT • (Digital Edition) $5.95
 Urgent
Message For
TwoMorrows
Fans!
DON’T MISS YOUR
FAVORITE MAGS!
Starting this month, all our new
magazines will be listed in the
COMICS section (ie. front half) of ALTER EGO #139 ALTER EGO #140 ALTER EGO #141 ALTER EGO #142
JIM AMASH interviews ROY THOMAS Golden Age great IRWIN HASEN spotlight, From Detroit to Deathlok, we cover the DAVID SIEGEL talks to RICHARD ARNDT
Diamond Comic Distributors’ about his 1990s work on Conan, the still- adapted from DAN MAKARA’s film docu- career of artist RICH BUCKLER: Fantastic about how, from 1991-2005, he brought
PREVIEWS catalog with our books born Marvel/Excelsior line launched by mentary on Hasen, the 1940s artist of the Four, The Avengers, Black Panther, Ka-Zar, the greatest artists of the Golden Age to
(instead of in the “Magazine” STAN LEE, writing for Cross Plains, Topps, Justice Society, Green Lantern, Wonder Dracula, Morbius, a zillion Marvel covers— the San Diego Comic-Con! With art and
DC, and others! Art by KAYANAN, DITKO, Woman, Wildcat, Holyoke’s Cat-Man, and Batman, Hawkman, and other DC stars— artifacts by FRADON, GIELLA, MOLDOFF,
section as in the past). Look for the BUSCEMA, MAROTO, GIORDANO, ST. numerous other classic heroes—and, for 30 Creepy and Eerie horror—and that’s just in LAMPERT, CUIDERA, FLESSEL, NORRIS,
TWOMORROWS PUBLISHING AUBIN, SIMONSON, MIGNOLA, LARK, years, the artist of the famous DONDI the first half of the 1970s! Plus Mr. SULLIVAN, NOVICK, SCHAFFENBERGER,
section, alphabetically under the secrets of Dr. Strange’s sorcerous “177A newspaper strip! Bonus art by his buddies Monster, BILL SCHELLY, FCA, and comics GROTHKOPF, and others! Plus how writer
letter “T”—now with everything Bleecker Street” address, and more! Cover JOE KUBERT, ALEX TOTH, CARMINE expert HAMES WARE on fabulous Golden JOHN BROOME got to the Con, Mr.
by RAFAEL KAYANAN! INFANTINO, and SHELLY MAYER! Age artist RAFAEL ASTARITA! Monster’s Comic Crypt, FCA, and more!
in one place, for easy ordering
through your local comics shop. (Bonus 100 FULL-COLOR pages) $9.95 (84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95
(Digital Edition) $4.95 • Now shipping! (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Ships May 2016 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Ships July 2016 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Ships Aug. 2016

BACK ISSUE #88 BACK ISSUE #89 BACK ISSUE #90 BACK ISSUE #91 BACK ISSUE #92
“Comics Magazines of the ’70s and ’80s!” “Bronze Age Adaptations!” The Shadow, “Eighties Ladies!” MILLER & SIENKIEWICZ’s “All-Jerks Issue!” Guy Gardner, Namor in the “Bronze Age Halloween!” The Swamp Thing
From Savage Tales to Epic Illustrated, KIRBY’s Korak: Son of Tarzan, Battlestar Galactica, The Elektra: Assassin, Dazzler, Captain Marvel Bronze Age, J. Jonah Jameson, Flash revival of 1982, Swamp Thing in Hollywood,
“Speak-Out Series,” EISNER’s Spirit magazine, Black Hole, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Worlds (Monica Rambeau), Lady Quark, DAN Thompson, DC’s Biggest Blowhards, the Phantom Stranger team-ups, KUPPERBERG &
Unpublished PAUL GULACY, MICHAEL USLAN Unknown, and Marvel’s 1980s movie adapta- MISHKIN’s Wonder Woman, WILLIAM Heckler, Obnoxio the Clown, and Archie’s MIGNOLA’s Phantom Stranger miniseries,
on the Shadow magazine you didn’t see, plus tions. Plus: PAUL KUPPERBERG surveys prose MESSNER-LOEBS and ADAM KUBERT’s “pal” Reggie Mantle! Featuring the work of DC’s The Witching Hour, the Living Mummy,
B&Ws from Atlas/Seaboard, Charlton, Skywald, adaptations of comics! With work by JACK Jezebel Jade, Somerset Holmes, and a look (non-jerks) RICH BUCKLER, KURT BUSIEK, and an index of Marvel’s 1970s’ horror
and Warren. Featuring work by NEAL ADAMS, KIRBY, DENNY O’NEIL, FRANK ROBBINS, back at Marvel’s Dakota North! Featuring the JOHN BYRNE, STEVE ENGLEHART, KEITH anthologies! Featuring the work of RICH
JOHN BOLTON, ARCHIE GOODWIN, DOUG MICHAEL W. KALUTA, FRANK THORNE, work of BRUCE JONES, JOHN ROMITA JR., GIFFEN, ALAN KUPPERBERG, and many BUCKLER, ANDY MANGELS, VAL MAYERIK,
MOENCH, EARL NOREM, ROY THOMAS, MICHAEL USLAN, and sporting an alternate ROGER STERN, and many more, plus a previ- more. Cover-featuring KEVIN MAGUIRE’s MARTIN PASKO, MICHAEL USLAN, TOM
and more. Cover by GRAY MORROW! Kaluta cover produced for DC’s Shadow series! ously unpublished cover by SIENKIEWICZ. iconic Batman/Guy Gardner “One Punch”! YEATES, and many more. Cover by YEATES.
(84 FULL-COLOR pages) $8.95 (84 FULL-COLOR pages) $8.95 (84 FULL-COLOR pages) $8.95 (84 FULL-COLOR pages) $8.95 (84 FULL-COLOR pages) $8.95
(Digital Edition) $3.95 • Now shipping! (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Ships June 2016 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Ships July 2016 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Ships Aug. 2016 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Ships Sept. 2016

TwoMorrows.
The Future of
Comics History.
TwoMorrows Publishing
10407 Bedfordtown Drive
Raleigh, NC 27614 USA
COMIC BOOK CREATOR #12 COMIC BOOK CREATOR #13 DRAW! #32 BRICKJOURNAL #39 919-449-0344
JACK KIRBY’s mid-life work examined, MICHAEL W. KALUTA feature interview Super-star DC penciler HOWARD PORTER LEGO DINOSAURS! Builder WILLIAM
from Fantastic Four and Thor at Marvel in covering his early fans days THE SHADOW, demos his creative process, and JAMAL IGLE PUGH discusses building prehistoric crea- E-mail:
the middle ’60s to the Fourth World at DC STARSTRUCK, the STUDIO, and Vertigo discusses everything from storyboarding to tures, a LEGO Jurassic World by DIEGO
(including the real-life background drama cover work! Plus RAMONA FRADON talks penciling as he gives a breakdown of his MAXIMINO PRIETO ALVAREZ, and dino
store@twomorrows.com
that unfolded during that tumultuous era)! about her 65+ years in the comic book working methods. Plus there’s Crusty Critic bones by MATT SAILORS! Plus: Minifigure Order at
Plus a career-spanning interview with business on AQUAMAN, METAMORPHO, JAMAR NICHOLAS reviewing art supplies, Customization by JARED K. BURKS, step- twomorrows.com
underground comix pioneer HOWARD SUPER-FRIENDS, and SPONGEBOB! Also JERRY ORDWAY showing the Ord-Way of by-step “You Can Build It” instructions by
CRUSE, the extraordinary cartoonist and JAY LYNCH reveals the WACKY PACK doing comics, and Comic Art Bootcamp CHRISTOPHER DECK, DIY Fan Art by
graphic novelist of the award-winning MEN who created the Topps trading cards lessons with BRET BLEVINS and Draw! editor BrickNerd TOMMY WILLIAMSON, MIND-
Stuck Rubber Baby! Cover by STEVE RUDE! that influenced an entire generation! MIKE MANLEY! Mature readers only. STORMS robotics lessons, and more!
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95
(Digital Edition) $3.95 • Ships May 2016 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Ships Aug. 2016 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Summer 2016 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Ships April 2016
 Here’s a beautiful concept drawing Jack probably produced for animation. Inks look to be by Alfredo Alcala. After
Parting Shot years toiling at a page rate in the comics industry—with no health insurance or benefits—Jack finally found a perfect
creative outlet near the end of his career, which provided him financial stability, and let his imagination run free.
TM & © Jack Kirby Estate.
PRINTED IN CHINA