JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR THIRTY-SEVEN $995

IN THE US
(right) Big John
Buscema did a fine
job on How To
Draw Comics The
Marvel Way, but
even as a kid, I
knew Jack was the
one who should’ve
been doing that
book. So, here’s
the cover the way
it should’ve been!

C O P Y R I G H T S :
2001 Characters, Alicia,
Arnim Zola, Balder, Betty
Ross, Black Bolt, Black
IT’S ...THE NEW
Panther, Bruce Banner,
Bucky, Capt. America,
ISSUE JACK KIRBY
Crystal, Devil Dinosaur, Don
Blake, Dr. Doom, Dr. Strange,
#37 OF... COLLECTOR!
Dragon Man, Ego, Fantastic
Four, Howard the Duck, Hulk,
Human Torch, Inhumans,
Invisible Girl, Ka-Zar, Loki,
Machine Man, Magneto,
Mechano, Medusa, Mole
Man, Moonboy, Mr. Fantastic,
Mr. Little, Odin, Power Man,
Professor X, Quicksilver,
Recorder, Red Skull, Red
Wolf, Rick Jones, Scarlet
Witch, Sgt. Fury, Sif, Silver
Surfer, Spider-Man, Stranger,
Super-Skrull, Thing, Thor,
Tigra, Toad, X-Men, Yellow
Claw TM ©2003 Marvel
Characters, Inc. • Big Barda,
Blue Beetle, Darkseid,
Demon, Desaad, Forever
People, Guardian, In The Days
of the Mob, Jimmy Olsen,
K a m a n d i , L i g h t r a y,
Mantis, Martian Manhunter,
Metron, Mr. Miracle, Newsboy
Legion, Oberon, Orion,
Sandman, Sandy, Scott Free,
Slig, Sonny Sumo, Superman
TM & ©2003 DC Comics. •
Bombast, Capt. Glory, Darius
Drumm, Gladiators, Gods
characters, Jacob and the
Angel, Jericho, King Masters,
Silver Star, Street Code TM &
©2003 Jack Kirby Estate. •
Boys' Ranch, Justice Traps
The Guilty, Strange World Of
Your Dreams, Stuntman TM &
©2003 Joe Simon & Jack
Kirby. • Destroyer Duck TM &
©2003 Steve Gerber and
Jack Kirby. • Young Gods TM
& ©2003 Barry Windsor-
Smith. • Black Hole TM &
©2003 Walt Disney Prods.,
Inc. • Conan TM & ©2003
Robert E. Howard Estate. •
Spirit TM & ©2003 Will
Eisner. • Prince Valiant TM &
©2003 King Features
Syndicate.

Contents
The Jack Kirby Collector, Vol. 10, No. 37,
OPENING SHOT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2 INNERVIEW . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .50 COMPARISON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .69 Winter 2003. Published quarterly by &
(the Editor tells how he does it) (Kirby tells us how he did it) (does Jack’s writing stack up to Stan’s?) ©2003 TwoMorrows Publishing, 1812 Park
Drive, Raleigh, NC 27605, USA. 919-833-
UNDER THE COVERS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5 KIRBY AS A GENRE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .54 COLLECTOR COMMENTS . . . . . . . . . . .78 8092. John Morrow, Editor. Pamela Morrow,
(gods, gods, and more gods; but where (Adam McGovern tells how others do it) (letters on #36; we’ll do #35 next time!) Asst. Editor. Eric Nolen-Weathington,
are they?) Production Assistant. Single issues: $13
NEW COLUMN! KIRBY OBSCURA . . . .56 PARTING SHOT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .80
GALLERY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .6 (Barry Forshaw tracks down obscure (a great big snake, Kirby-style!) postpaid ($15 Canada, $16 elsewhere).
(tracing the evolution of Jack’s style) Kirby work) Four-issue subscriptions: $36.00 US, $60.00
Front & back cover inks/colors: JACK KIRBY Canada, $64.00 elsewhere. All characters
THINKIN’ ’BOUT INKIN’ . . . . . . . . . . . .24 TECHNIQUE SECTION . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .57 Photocopies of Jack’s uninked pencils from are trademarks of their respective compa-
(Mike Royer tells us how it’s done) (analyses of Jack’s tricks of the trade) nies. All artwork is ©2003 Jack Kirby unless
published comics are reproduced here
otherwise noted. All editorial matter is
JACK F.A.Q.s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .44 INFLUENCES . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .66 courtesy of the Kirby Estate, which has our ©2003 the respective authors. First printing.
(Mark Evanier tells us how Jack did it) (from Foster to Kirby to Windsor-Smith) thanks for their continued support. PRINTED IN CANADA.

1
 what’s involved in scanning the Kirby pencil art we show, and
by John Morrow, editor of TJKC why some images look so much better than others (why some,
Opening Shot in fact, look almost like actual pencil drawings, while others
barely have discernable detail in them). Frankly, I’ve always
felt I should stay as far out of the limelight in this magazine as
possible, and just let Jack’s work—and his other fans—do
ver since our first few issues back in 1994-95, but even more most of the talking; but since this is the first of two (count

E and more recently, we’ve been getting mail from readers asking
us questions, questions, questions about how we go about
putting an issue of TJKC together, and how many of Jack’s pencil
photocopies exist (and from what issues). They want to know
’em, two!) issues that’ll deal with Jack’s art from a technical
standpoint, I figured it was about time I clued readers in to
the ins and outs of my job as editor and designer of the Kirby
Collector. If this technical hoo-hah doesn’t float your boat,

Where Does He Get Those

Wonderful
Pencils? don’t worry; there’ll be plenty of never-seen Kirby art in both
this issue and next, so if nothing else, sit back and feast your
eyes on some amazing penciling!
One of the areas of TJKC that hasn’t always been fun is
getting ahold of Kirby art to run in this magazine. Just where
do we get all our art, you ask? From a number of sources,
which have changed a lot since we first began this ’zine back
in 1994. For our first issue, I pretty much depleted my per-
sonal supply of interesting Kirby art, but word of mouth
spread quickly, and fans all over started sending us photo-
copies of Kirby work from their collections—convention
sketches, unused pages, that sort of thing (and for those
of you out there who assume I’ve got some massive col-
lection of Kirby originals, sorry to burst your bubble; I
own a whopping three pages, all acquired since starting
TJKC). Over the last two or three years, that flood of art
has slowed to barely a trickle, so I think we’ve pretty
much depleted the supply of private collectors who
have art to share (or at least those who are willing to
send in copies). Most of our art these days isn’t from
individuals, although if you’re out there reading this,
and have something in your collection you’d like to
share, please send it! We still need every piece of
Kirby art we can get, to keep this magazine going
indefinitely.
Our other source of art, and probably the one
that’s the biggest draw for Kirby fans, is the
xeroxes we show of Jack’s pencils before they
were inked. Longtime TJKC readers know that
sometime around when Mike Royer started ink-
ing Jack’s work at DC Comics (say, New Gods #5
or so, in early 1971), Jack’s son Neal worked for
a copier company, and got his dad a photocopy
machine for their home. It’s not like today’s
models; the technology used at that time was
akin to thermal fax machines of a few years
ago—flimsy gray paper, with images that
were far from dark black. Like thermal
faxes, these copies tended to fade over
time, particularly when exposed to sunlight (although not
2
as quickly as the thermal faxes I used to use). Jack
(or more likely, Roz) would photocopy his pencils
before sending them to be inked, in case the
pencils ever got lost and had to be recreated
quickly. Years and years of these exist, from
1971-on; some with water or coffee stains or
cigar burns on them, some faded over time,
but still a remarkable visual record of a man’s
creative output, unchanged by an inker’s
hands. These copies have come to be known
as the Kirby Archives, and the Kirby family
has been kind enough to loan us a large
batch of them (nearly 2000 pages), which
we’re in the process of scanning and
archiving in digital form, full-size, so these
images will be around long after the actual
paper copies fade to nothingness.
Also in the Archives are a lot of
“thermal fax” copies of 1960s Marvel
Comics pages before they were inked.
Most of these are from 1968-onward,
after the time Marvel switched from
“large art” to “small art,” making it
feasible to copy them on a standard
11" x 17" photocopier (like the one
Jack would get for his home).
Several whole issues of Thor and
Fantastic Four exist from this time
period, plus scattered pages of
Captain America and other strips,
still in pencil form. When Jack
moved from New York to
California in 1968, the Marvel
offices would copy the pencils
after they were lettered (but
before inking) and send them
to Jack so he’d know what was
going on with the dialogue in
one issue before he started
penciling the next. Other,
more random pages exist
from the earlier “large art”
period, where actual photo-
stats (shot on a large stat
camera) were the only
feasible way to copy the
art. Again, these were
shot and sent to Jack so
he could keep up with issue-
to-issue continuity, but many of these are from the
inked pages. However, there are a few (like the Thor #144 pencils
we’ve shown in past issues) that are stats of the pencils, and the variances in the
quality of these is far superior to the “thermal fax” copies. Readers copies themselves). Just the scanning
last issue commented on why some of the Thor repros looked like alone is an incredibly time-consuming task (count the number
actual pencil art; those are ones from stats as opposed to xeroxes. of scans in this issue, then figure out how long it takes to scan one
There’s even a handful of old copies made on tracing paper; I image, and you’ll get a good idea what our production assistant
have no idea what technology they were using for that in the mid- Eric spends a lot of his time doing!). Then, the even more cumber-
1960s, but those are crumbling to dust quickly. some task of cleaning up these scans comes in, and that doesn’t (this spread) Before and After
Now, what do we do to these pencils to make them reproduce include keystroking text, working on layouts, doing interviews, versions of page 6 of
optimally in the magazine? Glad you asked! Shown here is a etc. TJKC is a big job, and I really appreciate everyone’s patience Fantastic Four #91.
“before and after” comparison, showing what a typical 1960s when an issue doesn’t ship on-time. Believe me, nobody here at All characters TM & ©2003 Marvel
Characters, Inc.
“thermal fax” copy looks like [left], and what it looks like after we TwoMorrows is sitting around goofing off while you’re waiting for
scan it and clean it up with Adobe Photoshop software [above]. By the new issue to ship.
beefing up the contrast so the image becomes clearer, we lose a bit Before the Kirbys loaned us art from the Archives, we had to
of the delicate variations of Jack’s pencil work, but that’s the price rely on second (and sometimes third or more) generation xeroxes
you pay to make these faded copies viewable (and very little subtlety made from the “thermal fax” copies. The quality of these is pretty
exists in these copies anyway). I think it’s a good tradeoff. poor, since the originals were so faded to begin with, although
Other tricks we use are to clean up borders by deleting stray they worked okay for our early, photocopied issues of TJKC. More
tones outside the panels (and then in many cases going in and on where those came from—and just what exact pages exist in the
redrawing the panel borders), darkening up the margin notes Kirby Archives—next issue! ★
more than the art (so they’ll be more readable), and adjusting
individual panels differently on the same page (to compensate for
3
Gallery
The Evolution of Kirby’s Style

Unfinished Abdul Jones strip (1937)

(age 20) One of the few remaining
examples of Jack’s pre-comic book
pencils, while he still went by his given
name, Jacob Kurtzberg.

WHERE
DID KIRBY’S
TRADEMARK
SQUIGGLES,
KRACKLE, AND
KIRBYTECH
COME FROM?

TO KNOW,
WE NEED TO EXAMINE
HOW HIS STYLE
EVOLVED, FROM HIS
EARLIEST WORK, TO
HIS LAST. SO FOR THIS
ISSUE’S GALLERY,
WE PRESENT A
KAVALCADE OF KIRBY
FROM THROUGHOUT
HIS CAREER, IN AN
ATTEMPT TO SHOW
THE EVOLUTION OF
HIS STYLE, STARTING
WITH WORK FROM THE

1930S
Two gladiator studies, circa early 1930s.

6
 Adventure Comics #75 (June 1942)
(age 25) A jump to DC Comics leads to better pay, a
more refined and slick style, and faster production. As

1945
war loomed, Jack stockpiled work and broke his previous
speed records.

Interlude
KO Komics #1 (Oct. 1945)
This book was recently sold on eBay as

1940 s
having a Kirby cover. Does it? The signature
“JCA” doesn’t seem to lend any clues.

8
 1950 s

(top) Unused Strange World Of Your Dreams cover (1952) and (bottom) King Masters newspaper sample (mid-1950s)
(age mid-thirties) You can begin to see the foundation for the wider, rounder bodies and faces that would populate Jack’s later work. Jack was at an age when many of
us start to notice a “middle-age spread” of our own. These stockier males are still lithe but with much more mass—and as always, Jack could pack more “punch” into a
small panel than other artists could in a full-page pin-up.
10
 Early ’60 s Journey Into Mystery #62 (1960), and Strange Tales #84 and #86 (1961) and #96 (1962)
(age 43-45) Short, throwaway monster stories keep food on the table, but the formula-style plots don’t leave
much room for creativity, but Marvel Age success was waiting just around the corner.
12
 LATE ’60 s Fantastic Four #75 (June 1968)
(age 51) With his workload down to three books a month (Captain America, Fantastic Four, and Thor),
Jack’s pencils take on a mass and power never-before-seen in comics.
16
 1971-75
Unpublished page from In The Days Of The Mob #2 (1971)
(age 54) The move to DC Comics brings inker Mike Royer on board, who does the most faithful inking Kirby’s
ever had. Without Sinnott’s stylization or Colletta’s softening, we see as close to “pure” Kirby as possible.
18
 Late ’70 s
Marvel Chillers #7 cover (Oct. 1976)
(age 59) A long string of covers for Marvel shows Jack working from supplied layouts for the first time since
the early Simon & Kirby days. His return to Marvel begins with a bang as he takes over Captain America,
but refuses to work on his other old strips, instead concentrating on new creations.
20
 1980 s Unused Destroyer Duck page (1982)
(age 65) After several years in the animation industry doing fairly loose work on storyboards, Jack returned to comics and helped inaugurate the direct market
with Captain Victory. While his time away from comics may have subdued his skills, there’s still solid work with a nice sense of design and detail.
22
Thinkin’ ’bout inkin’

(below) Jack Kirby with

Interviewed by Jim Amash
Fastest Inker In The “Carson Napier of Venus” books. We took this fanzine to the con-
vention, but Russ Manning wasn’t there.
Mike (looking very “Austin (Editor’s Note: I’d always planned to have interviews with both Mike
Camille Cazedessus, Jr., publisher of ERB-dom was there and
Powers” shagadelic, baby!) Royer and Joe Sinnott in this issue, and I figured, who better to inter-
took a copy of our comic book to him. A few months later, I
at the 1975 San Diego view an inker than a fellow inker? After my pal Jim Amash agreed to
prepared samples, with the encouragement of Kaz, to send to Russ
Comicon. take time out from his work for Archie Comics to get Mike and Joe on
Manning. I wrote a cover letter, saying that if he ever needed an
the record, I set out to compile a stack of key Kirby
assistant, that I would like to have the job. Russ wrote back, saying,
pages inked by each, to use as fodder for discussion.
“If you were here, I see no reason why you couldn’t assist me.” So,
But the stack grew ever larger as I got into it, and both
I packed up my family, moved to Southern California and bless his
gents sent back additional art of their own to include.
heart, Russ gave me some work.
So rather than truncate what I think is the most in-
Russ put me to work on “Aliens,” which was the four page
depth discussion ever conducted with Jack’s premier
back-up story that appeared in Magnus, Robot Fighter #12. The
inkers, I’m holding Joe’s interview till next issue, and
pages were sixty percent tightly penciled and sixty percent inked,
giving Mike the full treatment in this one.)
and my job was to finish the pencils and to match the inking that
MIKE ROYER: When I was a youngster, a couple was already there. I had an advantage because I was a self-taught
of things happened. I became fascinated with the inker, so I was able to do what Russ wanted me to do. I started
artwork and storyline of V.T. Hamlin’s Alley Oop working with Russ in 1965 and worked with him
comic strip, which I discovered in some old news- until 1979. Of course, during that
papers at the bottom of my grandmother’s trunk period, is the ten years
in the attic while looking for letters with old of almost
stamps on them. There was a pile of old Sunday sections there. I constant
got ahold of an Alex Raymond Flash Gordon reprint comic book at work with
the local market, and immediately fell in love with Raymond’s work. Jack Kirby.
I began cutting out the new Alley Oop strips from newspapers I did
(far right, top) Mike, at and taped them together. Then I built a cardboard box and got a other work
home on the range during
crank handle so I could run the strips through the box like a movie during those
one of his many trail rides.
screen. Around this time, I found some Big Little Books my mother early days
had stored in the attic. All these things inspired me to do comics. with Russ. I
(center) Mike was kind I did amateur comic books in high school. My mother had an was working
enough to supply us with artistic bent and encouraged me to do all this. But I didn’t learn weekdays in a
this list of the inking sup- quite as much as I should have because my mother was always paint store
plies he uses, both while he telling me how good I was. When you constantly hear that kind of because Russ
was regularly inking Jack, praise from one source, you develop an attitude that you don’t couldn’t give me
and now. have that much left to learn. This isn’t meant as a criticism of my full-time work. In
mother because she said what she believed. Artists go through this the late 1960s,
sort of thing a lot when they are young, I suppose. But there comes Western Publishing,
(far right, bottom) Who a point when you realize you don’t know very much. Another car- for whom Russ was
cares if Orion switched legs
toonist and I did a strip for the local newspaper, which we didn’t doing Magnus, asked
during New Gods #5?
get paid for, but it was a lot of fun. I was on the high school news- Russ to take over the
That’s gorgeous art!
Orion, Slig TM & ©2003 DC Comics.
paper and did cartoons there and contributed drawings to the Tarzan comic book. He told them the only way he could do that is
school yearbook, too. to have me assist him, but that it wouldn’t be enough work to
After high school, I decided I wanted to do comic strips, not afford me a full-time income.
comic books. However, in the late 1950s, it wasn’t the best time to Russ informed Western that they would need to give me
try doing adventure strips, as the newspapers had started turning other work, so that I could help him and also have enough other
away from that genre. I got married at twenty and had three chil- work to live on. Western did that, so now I was into doing comic
dren by the time I was twenty-three, so books on a full-time basis. This is how I became known in the
I did all kinds of jobs. In 1964, I decided comic book community in California.
I couldn’t just go on doing “jobs.” I In the mid-1960s, I also did some work for an animation
still wanted to do comic strips, but company named Grantway-Lawrence. I met Mike Arens there and
amended that goal to just wanting to while I owe Russ the thanks for getting me started in the comic
do comics. book business, it was Mike who taught me the most. Mike also
I fell into the age of Marvel Comics pushed me into lettering because he knew the importance of an
and was enthralled by what was hap- artist being able to handle all facets of the trade, so I’d never have to
pening: the way Jack Kirby drew and turn a job down. He said, “Lettering is just like drawing. All those
the way Stan Lee told the stories. Since letters in the alphabet are just like objects you draw. You pencil
newspapers weren’t interested in the them, and you ink them.” Mike really mentored me and I ended
kinds of things I wanted to do, I started up working for him, too. Richard “Sparky” Moore worked there
leaning towards doing comic books. I and he gave me this great piece of advice: “You get your first job
still have the rejection letters from on your ability and you get your other jobs on your dependability.”
(above) Mike with mentor Marvel Comics (and other publishers) from the early 1960s. On a fateful day, when my wife and kids were swimming and I
Russ Manning in the early I got into Edgar Rice Burroughs fandom at this time and was was walking from my studio at the rear of my garage, the telephone
1970s. getting all the fanzines, eventually drawing a few things for them. I rang in the kitchen. I ran in, picked it up, and heard a gruff voice
discovered that Russ Manning was a Burroughs fan and I assumed say, “Hello, Mike Royer. This is Jack Kirby. Alex Toth says you’re a
that he would be going to the World’s Science Fiction Convention pretty good inker.” That’s how my association with Jack started.
at Oakland in 1964. Another fan and I produced a comic book
THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: I know the story about how you
based on The Wizard Of Venus, which was one of the last of the
24
West: Mike Royer
went over to Jack’s house and inked that great drawing of Jack sitting at his drawing
board, with the Marvel Comics characters all around him. And I know you inked
a few things for him when he was doing work for Marvelmania. Did Jack try to get
you as his inker on any of the Marvel comics?
MIKE: I don’t know. All I remember is that Jack said he had me in mind for some-
thing and then he left for New York. A few days later, I got a call from Maggie
Thompson saying, “What’s this I hear that Jack Kirby’s left Marvel and gone to
DC?” I told her I didn’t know anything about it.
That same evening, I got a phone call from Jack and he said he’d had it in his MIKE:
mind that I was to letter and ink all his DC books, but they wanted to control Ohhhh, yeah!
those aspects of the books in New York. You know, it’s funny, because I used to However, let me state here
see the rare page of Jack’s pencils that for print that they were both master designers. They both learned from the same
were printed in fanzines, and wonder, people: Hal Foster and Alex Raymond. Jack and Russ both designed beautiful
“Why isn’t anyone inking what Jack’s pages but were polar opposites.
penciled?” Maybe that thought
occurred to me because I worked TJKC: Since that’s the case, and since Jack’s work was quite different from what
with Russ Manning and every- you were used to working on, were you forced to look at a paneled page of Jack’s
thing had to look like Russ’ work. as a total design element?
When I penciled and inked MIKE: Yes. It was not hard to ink Manning in a Raymond-like illustrative style,
Tarzan filler stories at Western, and then ink Kirby, who was expressionistic. When it came to inking, it was my
it had to look like Russ job to finish the penciler’s statement. I’ve been accused by some fans of just tracing
Manning, or at least be pretty Jack’s pencils, and sometimes, I thought that’s what I did. But now, when I compare
close. When I inked Doug Jack’s penciled work to our finished pages, I realize that wasn’t what I did. I
Wildey at Grantway- brought something to those pages, but I don’t know if it was me or if it was my
Lawrence, I wanted it to conceit that I was trying to finish the page the way Jack would have.
look like Doug had inked
it. Mike Arens wanted TJKC: I understand, but as you know, Jack didn’t always ink his work quite the
me to ink his work as same way that he penciled it.
though he had inked it. I MIKE: I wasn’t exposed to that then, so it didn’t mess up my illogical logic. (laughs)
had to match other
people’s work at TJKC: I did the gray tones on a couple of Jack’s paperbacks when DC reprinted
Grantway- New Gods and Mister Miracle. I developed an even a greater appreciation of Jack’s
Lawrence. This design work and how he put things together, than I’d had before. For instance,
was the mindset that I had. Jack would use three different light sources on the same figure, even when there
When it came to work, I guess I was was only one possible light source. Jack was thinking about design more than he
a chameleon. I didn’t develop a natural style of was reality.
my own, though I have a bent towards the Alex Raymond/ MIKE: Comics are not real life. It’s a mistake for people to approach them as if
Russ Manning school of illustration. they are. As Russ Manning used to say, “When you’re drawing comics, you’re
TJKC: Tell me about the work you did for Jack at Marvelmania. drawing something that can’t be done on film.” Of course today, there isn’t any-
thing that can’t be done on film, except for telling stories. (laughs)
MIKE: I don’t remember what all I did for Jack there. I do remember doing a few
pin-ups and some letterheads with the Marvel characters. I remember that Jim TJKC: I agree. And you
Steranko came out here and stayed with me for a couple of weeks in 1970. Jim can’t take a naturalistic
penciled a bunch of Marvelmania pin-ups approach to Jack’s work.
that I inked. Jim let me keep the originals You had to think of it as
since I put him up for a couple of weeks, pure design.
which I later sold to acquire my first 16 MIKE: I think you’re right.
millimeter movie. I might have been
TJKC: I take it that you inked them in thinking that way at the
the Steranko style. time, but it was probably
a subconscious thought
MIKE: Yep. process on my behalf.
TJKC: What was the first Kirby book I just looked at the
you inked at DC? drawings and my first
feelings were about
MIKE: New Gods #5. What amazed being swept away by the power. My second
me about it was early in the story, thought was, “I’d better not blow this,” knowing full well that I had to
Orion was trapped by a giant clam. do three pages a day to keep up with him. I had to letter a book in two
On one page, it was his right leg that was trapped in the days and then ink three pages a day.
clam’s mouth and on the next page, it was his left leg. But it didn’t matter
because Jack’s pencils were so damn powerful that they defied reality. You truly TJKC: Correct me if I’m wrong, but you got a whole book at a time, right?
had a suspension of disbelief when reading Jack Kirby’s work. MIKE: Yes. I’d open the package up and breathe in the smell of the Roi-Tan cigars
TJKC: Which is something that only a few comic artists ever really achieve. Of that Jack smoked while he drew these pages. That powerful pencil work, with the
course, Jack Kirby’s work was very different than Russ Manning’s. carbon smeared all over the pages and the smell of those cigars... it was intoxicating!
Then, it was slightly intimidating, because I was thinking that I had all this powerful
25
 MIKE: That’s real “burst” balloons, but did a kind of “burst”
probably balloon that Russ and I had worked out.
because those I always looked at what other letterers did. In a
creators were script for a film, when there’s a pause in the dialogue,
influenced by there’s usually a (beat). That means the speaker pauses.
the adventure In comic books, it’s three dots. But it never looked
newspaper right to me to have the three dots on the bottom of
strips. I don’t the invisible line that holds the characters.
recall Milton At some point, in the ’70s, I started paying
Caniff ever attention to Ken Ernst’s lettering in the Mary Worth
doing much newspaper strip. He would use the three dots, but
with sound put them in the center of the line. I still do that,
effects. though I don’t know if anyone else does it. From a
work and I’d better not screw it up. design sense, it makes more sense to me. You put
If you were to ask me who my favorite inker was, TJKC: He didn’t. Roy Crane was really the first one
dashes in the center of the line, don’t you?
in most cases, I’d probably say Joe Sinnott. However, to do much with them, and even then, he didn’t go
I always ruled pencil guidelines before I lettered
I think the best inker for what Jack Kirby wanted, crazy with them. Now you have the 1960s, and
to insure my lettering consistently came out the
was me. Now, I loved Frank Giacoia’s inks and even Jack’s work was even more dynamic than before, so
right size. I don’t know if anyone’s noticed this,
those early Fantastic Fours with George Roussos’ they did the lettering to match up to the power of
because it’s subtle, but I did something that makes
inks. But what Jack wanted at the time I went to work Jack’s drawings.
for a better design and easier reading. The normal
for him, was what I gave him. That’s why I saved the MIKE: Those Marvel letterers did all kinds of won- way would be to rule seven or ten lines down from
best for him. I guess this sounds egotistical. derful things. It wasn’t just the snappiness of Stan the top of the panel border and then letter. I found
TJKC: No, it doesn’t. You knew what had to be done Lee’s dialogue, but the shapes of the word balloons it took a little extra time, but if there was a character
and you guided your natural sensibilities in that by the letterers. I wouldn’t say that I always agreed talking in three different, contained balloons and a
direction. with their choice of balloons, but it was an attitude fourth balloon is coming from someone speaking
in all their magazines that was so effective. off-panel, I made sure that none of those lines of
MIKE: The only originals I ever had were a couple of When I lettered at Western Publishing, I was dialogue are on the same plane, in any of the
books that Jack gave me, because he retained every- sometimes influenced by what they did. I didn’t do balloons when possible.
thing. Since I knew they had some market value, I
sold them off so I could get sixteen millimeter movies,
being an avid movie buff. I didn’t collect my work,
even though it was Kirby pencils. If they were Joe
Sinnott or Giacoia or even Chic Stone pages, I’d have
probably kept them.
I remember at the wake, after Jack was laid to
rest, we were looking at Jack’s work in his flat files in
his house. I’m looking at this work that I had done,
twenty or more years ago, and said, “God! I’d love
to have them.” I was looking at a Black Panther
double-page spread and said how much I wished I
could own it. You see, enough time had passed that
it didn’t seem like my work anymore.
TJKC: I was with you when you said that and
remember how you felt. Now, when you got a story,
you sat down and read it first.
MIKE: Yes. In the first few issues, Jack indicated in
the margins what sound effects he wanted. In fact,
one of the first disagreements we had... and it was
never verbalized, but the evidence bears it out, was
that he was not happy with how I placed the sound
effects, which we called “bangs” in those days. After
the first three or four issues, Jack started indicating
the sound effects on the penciled pages.
My feeling, as a designer, was to put them where
I felt they should be, but it wasn’t exactly where he
wanted them. That’s why he started putting them
in, and he never said a word to me. I don’t think I
was doing it “wrong,” but they weren’t quite where
he wanted them to be.
TJKC: Do you think Jack’s placement of the sound
effects was influenced by Marvel letterer Artie Simek?
MIKE: I’ve never, ever thought about this, but at
this moment, I’d agree with you. Thinking back,
and knowing how Jack worked back then, you may
be right. And now that he was in total control of the
books and I was doing his lettering, he probably
thought, “Why should I leave this up to Mike? I’ll
put them where I want them.”
TJKC: Before the Marvel Age, there really wasn’t
much done with sound effects.
26
 Look at page fourteen of Mister Miracle #6, third panel, for an up the paper and the lines would bleed. I had to find something
example of this. If you measure it with a ruler, you’ll see what I’m else that would work. Now, I’m not knocking Jack for using that
talking about. If you’ll look at a page with a lot of dialogue, and paper. It was probably the best paper in the world for his pencil-
squint your eyes, you’ll see that it’s just not a mass of uniform ing, but by the time he’d finished penciling a page and the heel of
dialogue that goes across the page. They bounce and bump into his hand had gone over it, it was like toilet paper. I used to take a
each other. It’s makes for an easier read, in my opinion. iron and press the pages out in order to make the paper surface a
little denser.
TJKC: I always thought your lettering really fit Jack’s work. There
The first lettering point I found that
was something about it that made it look like Jack himself had
worked on Jack’s pages was the old Speedball
lettered it. Your lettering style fit the design of the page in every
FB-6. The sound effects were done with the B
way, from the balloon and text placement to the balloon shapes,
series Speedball points. The B-5s and B-51⁄2s
to the very way you lettered the alphabet.
were good. If I’d had the time, I’d have used
things I
learned
from Russ
Manning,
like when
he did the
corners of
balloons.
He’d make
those corners a little squarer
than I did. There’s all kinds of
things I’d have done, if I’d had
the time.
TJKC: One of the things that
you did do, was on splash (previous page, top) As
pages, where Jack would write Mike mentions in this
a caption and then have a title interview, when lettering
for that chapter. I loved the a panel with multiple
balloons, he’d take the
typography you used and it
time to rule separate
was different from anybody
guidelines to make sure
else’s. Did you just make up none of the balloons
that style of title lettering? lined up with the other.
MIKE: “Made it up,” is okay We superimposed a
horizontal guideline to
when you understand that
this detail from Mister
there’s nothing “new.” I looked
Miracle #6 (Jan. 1972).
at all kinds of lettering and cut
All characters TM & ©2003 DC
out pages with styles of letter- Comics.
ing that I liked. On the splash
page of Demon #10 [left], you’ll
notice the skull in the “D” in
the word Demon. There was a
story that Tony DeZuniga did
in DC Comics’ House of Mystery,
and he put a skull head in the
letter “D.” I said, “Oh, that’s
cool! I’m going to use it.” I
think the Filipino artists did
their own lettering because
they understood that lettering (above) Looks like this
is just an extension of drawing. photo was take just as
I had xeroxes of title pages Mike finished inking the
MIKE: I don’t really know what to say here, because my lettering from Italian reprints of Raymond’s Flash Gordon which were done splash page from Demon
was different from the way that Jack “greeked” the dialogue in. If in the 1960s. I couldn’t understand the language, but loved the #10 (July 1973), and had
I’d had the time, I would have lettered everything I ever did in the lettering. There was a particular style that I used a lot, because pinned it up to his draw-
Frank Engli style. If you’ll look at the Black Hole strip Jack and I did, there wasn’t always enough time to do the lettering in two days. ing board to dry. Shown
you’ll notice my lettering is different from my other work with Jack. Then, there’s the style I used the most of, which I made up from at left are Jack’s pencils
That lettering style is how Engli did it in everything that Milton two or three typefaces that I saw the Filipino artists use. and Mike’s final inks.
Note how Royer changed
Caniff did, from Terry And The Pirates to Steve Canyon. I fell in love I made my own alphabet based on the lettering that they did,
Etrigan from speaking the
with that lettering, not from Milton Caniff, but from Warren Tufts’ like the organic lettering with the drop shadows. On the Prisoner
dialogue to thinking it.
work on Casey Ruggles and other features. That was patterned after story, I didn’t even think about it. I knew I had to use a stenciled
All characters TM & ©2003 DC
Frank Engli’s work, but it takes longer to do it that way. lettering style. I knew the numbers on prison uniforms had sten- Comics.
When I first started doing the lettering, I found that I couldn’t ciled lettering. Sometimes, these things just came to me naturally.
use the pen points that I really wanted to use. I normally used Other times, I’d sweat bullets trying to come up with something
Esterbrook 314s, which were gold-plated pen points. Guys like that didn’t look like the last seventeen books.
Engli and Tufts used them, because as the pen points spread from There were several things that I picked up from Larry Mayer,
usage, you could take a razor blade and shave the outside edges, who was a designer and editor for Western Publishing for many
restoring the point, which would give a beautiful thick and thin line. years. Larry, a “jack of all trades,” was more involved with coloring
But the paper that Jack used was probably the cheapest paper books, but he also did the display lettering and occasionally splash
ever made. It just literally drove me nuts. Those points would tear page layouts on the comics. He did something that I really liked,
27
Innerview
“I Don’t Like To Draw Sling
Part Two of an August 1969 Interview With Jack Kirby good in it, and use it for himself, but I wouldn’t like to see him
Conducted by Shel Dorf and Rich Rubenfeld telling my story. I’d like to see him telling his story, and I’d like to
Transcribed by John Morrow see what emerges from him; that’s the fun of comic art to me. It
might be a technician’s view, but I feel that’s the fun of any creative
(above) Cast and crew of the (Last issue, we presented the first part of this never-published interview,
medium: Seeing what comes up from the next guy. If the fellow
1971 Disneyland Convention conducted in August 1969, just months before Kirby left Marvel for
in Anaheim, CA. First row, has a bland personality, maybe something nondescript will come
DC Comics. This time out, we pick up where we left off, as Jack discusses
center is Carmine Infantino, out. If he’s a passionate person, maybe we’ll see something really
his working techniques and philosophies.)
flanked to his right by Kirby powerful. That’s the fun of it for me, to watch what comes out of
and Shel Dorf. Photo cour- SHEL DORF: What is your average work day like? a human being, and project it for the reader.
tesy of Shel Dorf. JACK KIRBY: My work day is very erratic. I’ll do a page, and I’ll RICH: Sort of originality from inspiration, in other words?
get up and break up the day that way, and I’ll come back and do
JACK: Not originality exactly, but...
another page, and begin work another hour. Sometimes I’ll decide
to work very late, and I will work very late. Sometimes I’ll do my RICH: An original thought coming from an inspiration from
(next page) Pencils to an
unfinished, unused page quota of pages in quick time, and get off early enough to catch a something else?
from Battle For A Three movie. So, it’s a rare privilege, I think, to be able to do that,
JACK: No, nobody has an original thought; there’s nothing original.
Dimensional World, the because there’s no restriction on an artist in that respect. It’s the
You take what comes before you, and you turn it out for yourself,
1982 one-shot comic that pattern of work that I feel is a kind of a boon to me; somehow I’ve
in your own way. It’s the only thing you can do. There’s nothing
presented Jack’s work in earned that kind of routine, and I enjoy it. Possibly I might like a
in this world that I haven’t seen before, and I’m not familiar with.
true 3-D, complete with 9-to-5 routine just like a lot of other people, but somehow I feel
I can be given any kind of a familiar form, and just turn it around
stereoscopic (green and red) that I enjoy this more.
glasses, and led to Johnny
my own way. I won’t draw a car like anybody else. I won’t draw a
Carson’s gaffe about Kirby SHEL: Have you ever had a 9-to-5 routine in your life? shoe like anybody else. I won’t draw a hand like anybody else. I’ve
on The Tonight Show (see been bawled-out for drawing choppy fingers without fingernails,
JACK: Yes, I have, several times, but somehow I’ve grown accus-
TJKC #35 for details). but that’s the way I see fingers. It may be rebellious in a way, and
tomed to this way of living. I see nothing wrong with it, I enjoy it,
©2003 Jack Kirby Estate. gotten me into trouble, but I can’t help it. That’s how I see fingers.
and I break up my day as I see fit. It’s something that makes me
feel I’m my own man, which of course I’m not. (laughs) SHEL: It seems to me there’s so much energy being generated,
someday they may put your brain in a glass in some museum and
RICH RUBENFELD: What direction do you think the comics are
study it for a couple of hundred years.
going in today?
JACK: Well, I hope it’s at an Ivy League school. (laughs)
JACK: I’d love to know that. I’d love to know what’s in the heads
of the young fellows who see the images that we project, and SHEL: It seems to me there’s an industrial designer in there, there’s
a poet, a storyteller, an adventurer, a graphic
designer. There’s just too much for you to be
satisfied with any one of these specialized
fields, and you seem to have found the perfect
medium for expressing all these directions.
JACK: Well, I feel that this is not the end of it. I
feel that I’d love a little more time to take it
down to where it ought to go. I don’t know
where it should go, but I feel that the medium
leads the artist. I sometimes draw a line and
try to find out where the line goes. I don’t feel
that you control the line; I feel that the line
controls you. And you should follow the line,
and probably come up with a very interesting
form. I don’t believe in the conventional in art.
I don’t feel that art should be so abstract that
nobody can get your meaning. I feel like you
shouldn’t allow yourself to become trapped in
one style, or one form of art, or live in any static
way. I feel that anything static is dead. I don’t
go for anything that’s dead. That’s why my
figures have a lot of motion. I feel that motion
is life, and I feel that anything that moves is
alive, and that’s where you ought to go.
SHEL: Why don’t we see any clay around here?
It seems to me the next direction for you is
sculpture.
JACK: Why don’t you see any harpsichords
around here? Because that’s just not my thing,
and I don’t know why it is. I don’t have any
won’t accept them. I hope they won’t accept anything I draw. I aversion to clay. I feel that clay has been done; I feel that oil
hope whoever is coming up with comic art won’t accept anything paintings have been done. I feel that watercolor has been done. I
anybody draws. Give us his own version of what he sees. I’d like to don’t want to do them. I don’t know why, I just don’t want to do
see him take the technical part of my work, if he finds anything them, for the reason I don’t give Thor a red beard. I don’t feel he
50
shots; I Like To Draw Cannons.”

ought to have a red beard. I like to do my own version of Thor. society has put frames on it, and inhibited these emotions to such an extent that
we need this escapism. Kids that go to school and study the books have to keep
SHEL: Maybe next week you’ll suddenly decide to pick up a lump of clay, and make
quiet during class, and they head for the corner drug store. They pick up a Jack
a figure of the Thing or something, and this’ll take you in a whole different direction.
Kirby magazine, and these emotions, these passions, come out in them through
JACK: I wouldn’t say no. I don’t think there’s a set rule for anything. I’m not saying the medium of the comic.
that rules are bad, but I’m saying that rules shouldn’t be unshakable.
JACK: Well, I agree with you, because who knows what other channels there might’ve
SHEL: I’m looking at this just from a collector’s standpoint. All the great artists of been for these passions, if that’s what they are? Around the neighborhood I came
our times have dabbled in sculpture; Michelangelo, DaVinci and so on. They had from, you were either a gangster or a lawyer. It was that kind of a neighborhood,
some kind of an impulse. Paper was just a canvas, a flat surface; they reached a where there was no in-between; just black-&-white, no grays. A man was either for
point where they had to do something in three dimensions. The Jack Kirby pages you or against you; he either didn’t like you or he liked you. And you did the things
are 3-D without the crutch, perhaps, of actually doing the object in 3-D. You’ve you wanted, or you were told not to do them. So it’s that kind of atmosphere in
taken the flat paper as far, I think, as you can go without actually building up on which I was brought up, and it’s simplistic, I suppose. Maybe that’s what comes
the surface. out in the drawing.
JACK: That’s because I don’t see it as flat paper. Like I said, I feel that I’m fighting SHEL: I can’t think of anything else, except, “Who is this guy, Stan Lee?”
a camera all the time. I feel that the camera has so much more scope than I have.
JACK: Stan Lee is my editor. (laughs)
I’d like to try to get that kind of scope into my drawing. I feel that drawings
should be expansive, they should be powerful. I can’t see anything going “ping”; I SHEL: How did you first meet Stan Lee?
like to see things go “BAM!” I don’t like to draw slingshots; I like to draw cannons.
JACK: Stan Lee, I guess, came to Marvel when I was doing Captain America in the
It’s that way with me, and I think everything we do should have impact of some
1940s. He was a young fellow, and we were just nodding acquaintances. He was
kind. I think that we should be passionate human beings. Really live life in a way
very nice, certainly, and we were nice to each other; we got along. That was about
that gives us some impact, not to let it flow over us. Of course, I’m living a placid
it; there was no evidence that we’d ever get together in any way as editor and
type of life, although I’ve done all the things that make men passionate; that’s
artist. It just happened that way, that’s all; I came back to Marvel and Stan Lee
under the bridge with me, and I don’t miss them in any way that would frustrate
was editor. I went to work for Stan Lee, and whatever Stan Lee’s policies are,
me. (laughs)
they’re my policies. Whatever kind of a job Stan Lee wants done, I will do that job.
SHEL: I think you’ve put your finger on the “Jack Kirby Appeal.” Unfortunately I feel that’s the artist’s job; to cooperate with the policy of the publishing house.
we’re not all built that same way. We have these passions within us, but somehow I’ve always done that.

51
Technique
The Eyes Have It
by Shane Foley
(below) Kirby’s an Cairn’s “The Kirby Flow” (TJKC # 19) was a very good piece on Kirby’s storytelling.
pencils to page 2 of
Fantastic Four #91
(October 1969), and
(right) the published
I Here are some further characteristics of his techniques that are important to the success
of his work. These involve the way the reader’s eye is moved within a panel (which could
largely be read in conjunction with what Ian said) and also the way the reader is guided
when he wants to get out of the panel and go to the next (which, at this point, makes Ian’s
page, diagramed to
laying out the panels in a line inappropriate). (Now I’m sure I’ve read the basis of this before,
show how Jack
but can’t remember where or who wrote it.)
would flow panels
according to the eyes.
Here’s how I see it:
Kirby pages are designed for those who know how to read; that is, the reader expects
All art this article to start top left, read to the right then drop down to the far left of the next line and so on.
©2003 Marvel Characters, Inc.
unless otherwise noted. Sounds simple, but Kirby uses this to move the eye where he wants so that the key story-
telling points are found quickly and not missed.

WITHIN PANELS
Kirby usually uses either a circular motion
between main points of interest (usually heads) or
a line between them (usually at heads’ or the eye
level), and uses other ‘buffers’ to stop the eye from
wandering away. Using this method, Kirby gets
readers to see the main points of the story first,
while backgrounds and other decorative material
are only subconsciously absorbed unless deliberately
looked at. A quick reader will never, in a Kirby
story, overlook the main elements of the story and
see only the backdrop.

MOVING TO THE NEXT PANEL

Here is where I think Kirby is master, where
many other artists fail—and it’s so simple. Kirby
knew that his readers know how to read; that is,
read left to right, then drop down and read left to
right, etc. So he facilitates that to make sure the
eye of the reader lands exactly where he thinks it
should—i.e. not in the decoration of the panel, but
at the main storytelling point (usually a character/
head). He does this by making ‘pointer arrows’ out
of body angles, arms, shadows, action/stress lines,
etc.—anything at all. He’s already using all those
things to lead the eye around the panel in its circular
(etc.) motion as stated above, but when the reader
is ready to exit the panel and knows to go either
‘right’ or ‘down left,’ Kirby provides the easiest
route for the eye. He then places the subject of the
next panel directly in line with this route, thus,
subconsciously to the reader, leading to the next
point of importance. Therefore the storytelling
continues uninterrupted.
So simple, yet so often not done.
Here are a few arbitrary examples:
Fantastic Four #91 page 2 [left]: The eye enters
top left, meets Barker’s head and travels right. It
scans circularly between him, the thug on the right
and the woman, and perhaps, the picture. (The far
right thug is hardly noticed, he’s a buffer, keeping
the eye in the panel, but adding subconsciously to
the atmosphere.) When the reader is ready to leave
the panel, he knows to go ‘down left,’ so Kirby aids
that by having Barker’s arm going ‘down left.’ When
the eye follows that, it strikes the key point of panel
2: Barker’s head again and/or the front thug. The
eye scans around the circular arrangement (aided
by the curtains) and settles on the invisible line
between Barker’s eyes and the right thug’s eyes.
57
Technique
Art-Direction or Mis-Direct
An examination of three panels which suggest that Stan Lee’s “correc- one who didn’t draw, he
tions” on Kirby’s art may not have always been correct knew an awful lot about
(next page) Look how good by Mark Alexander the medium. In fact, sev-
Johnny and Crystal look eral of Lee’s changes to
together, side by side, very picture tells a story,” besides being a great old Rod Kirby’s art (as seen in his
ready to kick some butt!
The re-drawn panel seems
off-balance by comparison.
“E Stewart album, also could’ve been Jack Kirby’s motto insofar
as his approach to the “illustrative narrative” (i.e., the comic
book) was concerned. As magnificent as Kirby’s drawings were to
margin notes) were sur-
prisingly accurate and
insightful. Many of them
look at, Jack himself considered them to be of secondary impor- went beyond a mere
tance in the total scheme of things. Kirby’s main priority was to “proofreading,” for conti-
(right) “Unfinished and too
cartoony” was Stan’s
get the story told. The artwork had to function in that regard, nuity’s sake (i.e., “six but-
assessment of Dr. Doom’s otherwise, in Kirby’s view, it failed. This is why you’ll seldom find tons on Thor’s chest—
chest buttons in this origi- “poster friendly,” drawings in Kirby’s books, unlike in today’s should be four”). For
nal art panel from FF #85. “image-conscious” comics, whose main function seems to be to example, when Stan
In the next issue Kirby had show off the artists’ pyrotechnics, while the storyline (if there is noted that Dr. Doom’s
responded accordingly by one) is relegated to secondary status. (Note: Kirby saved his chest emblems in FF #85
adding more detail. poster-quality drawings for his covers, where they belonged: See “lacked detail,” making
Sgt. Fury #13, FF # 50, TOS # 59 and TTA #60 to name a few.) them look “too cartoony,”
At this point, I’d like to state that I’m an avid fan of Stan Lee. he was right, just as he
(below) Sue and Medusa I view the comics that Lee produced with Kirby and Ditko as the was right when he reject-
get the axe, being omitted
most potent and revolutionary ever created. However, with that ed Jack’s original FF #94 cover, for being “too cluttered and hard
in the published version of
said, it’s clear that Lee’s tenure as Marvel’s art director was due to to read” (my conjecture).
this page from FF #44.
Characters TM & ©2003 Marvel default as much as anything. When Kirby returned to Martin In view of this, I was shocked when TJKC #33 ran two of
Characters, Inc.
Goodman’s comics company in the late 1950s, the operation was Jack’s original penciled pages from FF #44 (Nov. 1965—what a
hanging by a thread. Goodman was ready to pull the plug, and find!). Here we see two glaringly obvious changes to Kirby’s art
the idea that he would pay a real artist to act as Stan’s art director wherein Lee’s judgement (in my opinion) needs to be taken to
was laughable. Commendably, Lee rose to the task, and for some- task. On page 20 (panel three) we see that Kirby originally drew

60
 This issue’s Gallery section didn’t include anything from Jack’s days in animation, so here’s a Kirby
Parting Shot original (inked by Alfredo Alcala) that was done in the 1980s for Ruby-Spears Productions, and sent
in by animator Bruce Zick. Bruce writes: “While it certainly is not one of his great pieces, the thing
that strikes me about this piece, as in so many of his compositions, is that a very powerful, clear,
simple concept of high entertainment is being created. A giant snake serpent strangling a city build-
ing! I’ve never seen it anywhere before, it’s a great idea, and it was no doubt a quick and effortless
sketch for Jack, yet it typifies what a consummate storyteller and conceptual genius he was.”

This piece was part of a Thor presentation, and the blank space below was intended to have an
image of Thor penciled in.

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80