Wikidata:Property proposal/Javanese registers

Javanese (language) register

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   Under discussion

Description	suggest the relationship between similar Javanese lexemes, between its various registers (social variants), mainly ngoko (Q12500634) register (plain Javanese), krama (Q12492493) register (high/polite Javanese), and madya (Q13091955) register (middle Javanese)
Data type	Lexeme
Domain	lexeme senses, in particular forms with spelling alternatives
Example 1	kowé/kowe/ꦏꦺꦴꦮꦺ (L2328) "ngoko" register and sampéyan/sampeyan/ꦱꦩ꧀ꦥꦺꦪꦤ꧀ (L1322036) "krama" register both means "you", but have different social register, where the former is considered casual, and the latter more formal and polite. For reference, please see the online Javanese dictionary in https://www.sastra.org/leksikon (make sure to tick "kata utuh" checkbox when searching to exclude partial matches). For more information regarding this ngoko/krama, see the introduction in this Javanese-English dictionary: https://www.sastra.org/bahasa-dan-budaya/kamus-dan-leksikon/1703-javanese-english-dictionary-horne-1974-1968, especially section 4.1. Organization of the Entries, and 5. SOCIAL STYLES. See also: en.wp, https://jv.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wikisastra:Tabel_krama-ngoko jv.wikt
Example 2	(update 18 August) gunung/ꦒꦸꦤꦸꦁ (L680638) (ngoko), redi/rêdi/ꦉꦢꦶ (L45622) (krama)
Example 3	(update 18 August) endhas/êndhas/ꦲꦼꦤ꧀ꦝꦱ꧀ (L413183) (ngoko), sirah/ꦱꦶꦫꦃ (L999025) (krama), mastaka/ꦩꦱ꧀ꦠꦏ (L413863) (krama inggil)

Motivation

I'm planning to add more Javanese lexeme, but there are many words with different registers, and using synonym (P5973) is not correct, because although they have different meaning, but they have different usage, and also there are many synonyms within the same registers (for example, "you" have 4 or more synonyms in "ngoko", and 3 or more different words in "krama"). Using a dedicated property would enable to search and query the relationship between different registers. As you can ses from the links provided above, the relationship between these registers are not one-to-one, and while "ngoko" form is considered the default, not all "ngoko" have "krama" equivalent (only about 1000 without affixation, much more with affixation), much less "madya" and other register ("krama inggil", etc.) and some "krama" are equivalent to several "ngoko", because they are not true "synonym" equivalent, but rather substitutions words for different social context. Therefore this property should support multiple relationships. For example:

"you"

• ngoko: kowe, (synyonym: ko'ên, kohên, kowên)
• madya: samang, andika, (synyonym: dika)
• krama: sampeyan, (synyonym: bênampeyan, bênangpeyan)
• krama inggil: panjênêngan, (synyonym: nandalêm, paduka)

"to say, to tell"

• ngoko: kandha, (synyonym: clathu, ngomong, kêcap, wara, gotèk, cluluk, wuwus, etc.)
• krama: criyos, sanjang, (synyonym: sajang, wicantên, etc.)
• krama andhap: matur
• krama inggil: andika, ngêndika, (synyonym: unandika)
• kawi: angling

(things related to hand / "tangan")

• ngoko: tangan, krama inggil: asta, simple noun, but the verbs get complicated:
• krama inggil: ngasta (ng- + asta) serve as substitutions for ngoko: 1 nyambut gawe (to work), 2 nggawa (to bring, take, carry), 3 nandang (to do), 4 nyekel (to hold, grasp, to handle), 5 mulang (to teach)

Bennylin (talk) 18:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Update 18 August

Just to make it clearer, on behalf of Javanese speakers, we would like to request 5 new properties:

• ngoko variations (see ngoko (Q12500634)
• madya variations (see madya (Q13091955)
• krama variations (see krama (Q12492493)
• krama inggil variations (see krama inggil word (Q16893583)
• krama andhap variations (see krama andhap word (Q66724909)

The first and foremost reasoning is that most Javanese dictionaries (monolingual, bilingual jv-id, jv-en, jv-nl) separate Javanese lexemes into mainly these 5 registers and link to their counterparts seamlessly. Secondly, the current available property (synonym (P5973)) doesn't fit our need for specific-linking from one lexeme to another - besides, synonymy in Javanese is called dasanama (lit. ten names), instead of register (Jv: unggah-ungguh) - and in the future I believe using these 5 new properties would make it much easier to "transform" words, phrases, sentences from one register to another (e.g. via WikiFunctions or other tools).

I've given in the form above two new examples:

• mountain: gunung/ꦒꦸꦤꦸꦁ (L680638) (ngoko), redi/rêdi/ꦉꦢꦶ (L45622) (krama)
  • L680638-S1, instead of having property "synonym: L45622-S1", should instead have property "krama variations: L45622-S1"
  • Likewise L45622-S1, instead of having property "synonym: L680638-S1", should instead have property "ngoko variations: L680638-S1"
  • both lexemes could have the following synonyms: ancala, indra, endra, ancala, ardi; ardya, arga, asalingga, awukir, aldaka, hyang parwata, imandri, himawan, himawat, nala, cala, dri, tambana, wanawasa, wukir, wukira, parsa of parswa, parasu, parswa = paraswa, praswa, parwaka, par(of pwar)wata, prawata, parja, pradesa, pra(of prê)bata, par(of pêr)bata, par(of pêr)bwata, par(of pêr)byata, padaka, jambangan, mahahimawan, mahendra, mèru, malaya, gana, gunungan, giri, gori, girindra, girinata, gorata, giriwara, gêgêr, basulingga, byata, ngasrama. These all means "mountain" in Javanese language
• head: endhas/êndhas/ꦲꦼꦤ꧀ꦝꦱ꧀ (L413183) (ngoko), sirah/ꦱꦶꦫꦃ (L999025) (krama), mastaka/ꦩꦱ꧀ꦠꦏ (L413863) (krama inggil)
  • endhas/êndhas/ꦲꦼꦤ꧀ꦝꦱ꧀ (L413183-S1) and S3 (ngoko), should have "krama variations: L999025-S1" only, while
  • endhas/êndhas/ꦲꦼꦤ꧀ꦝꦱ꧀ (L413183-S2) (ngoko), should have "krama variations: L999025-S1", and "krama inggil variations: L413863-S1", while
  • sirah/ꦱꦶꦫꦃ (L999025-S1) (krama), should have "ngoko variations: L413183-S1, S2, S3", and "krama inggil variations: L413863-S1", and
  • sirah/ꦱꦶꦫꦃ (L999025-S2) (ngoko and krama), has no other variations
  • mastaka/ꦩꦱ꧀ꦠꦏ (L413863-S1) (krama inggil) should have "ngoko variations: L413183-S2", and "krama variations: L999025-S1"
  • mastaka/ꦩꦱ꧀ꦠꦏ (L413863-S2) and S3 (ngoko and krama), has no other variations
  • all three lexemes could have the following synonyms: utamăngga, hulu, cêngêl, rajawèni, katumangga, katumăngga, kapala, kumba, têndhas, swa, sidhira, pasuhunan, murda, mukyana. All of them means "head"

Discussion

•  Support Thersetya2021 (talk) 14:39, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
•  Support Empat Tilda (talk) 01:20, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
•  Support Alfiyah Rizzy Afdiquni (talk) 04:41, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
•  Comment What's wrong with using something like language style (P6191) or variety of lexeme, form or sense (P7481) for this purpose? (Korean suffixes currently mark the register in which they are used with the former of these properties.) Mahir256 (talk) 16:53, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think you get what I mean, so I am going to give another example later. Meanwhile could you give the link for said Korean suffixes, and preferably lexemes? Bennylin (talk) 12:03, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  @Bennylin: There are a number of registers used in Korean, such as hasoseo-che (Q115744995), hapsyo-che (Q115744896), haeyo-che (Q115744904), and hae-che (Q115744915), where each is named for the verb meaning 'to do' in that language with the appropriate suffix used for indicative sentences in that language. The interrogative suffixes 나이까 (L749506), ᆸ니까 (L749614), and ᆯ까 (L1346003), to give examples of specific lexemes, have the same meaning(s) but differ only in the register used. More generally, though, it is not clear from this proposal why register differences between vocabulary items (especially register differences within a single language) should be treated differently from other stylistic differences between words in other languages with the same meaning (and indeed, the property 'language style', usable with a lot of language styles broadly construed, has at least five aliases containing the word 'register' in it) when an application (such as Ninai/Udiron and its deployment as Elemwala) can filter for senses in a language with particular language styles without requiring specialized links for them. Mahir256 (talk) 21:48, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

  Give a simple query each for these questions:

  • What is the krama (Q12492493) for endhas/êndhas/ꦲꦼꦤ꧀ꦝꦱ꧀ (L413183-S2)?
  • What is the krama inggil word (Q16893583) for sirah/ꦱꦶꦫꦃ (L999025-S1)?
  • What is the ngoko (Q12500634) and krama (Q12492493) for mastaka/ꦩꦱ꧀ꦠꦏ (L413863-S1)?

  Bennylin (talk) 10:35, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

  @Bennylin: Here are queries for endhas in the krama register, sirah in the krama inggil register, and mastaka belonging to both the ngoko and krama registers. Mahir256 (talk) 15:24, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

They're incorrect

• The krama variant for endhas/êndhas/ꦲꦼꦤ꧀ꦝꦱ꧀ (L413183-S2) is only one: sirah/ꦱꦶꦫꦃ (L999025-S1). The rest of them, while they have the krama register, are not the krama _for_ endhas/êndhas/ꦲꦼꦤ꧀ꦝꦱ꧀ (L413183-S2).
• The ngoko variant for mastaka/ꦩꦱ꧀ꦠꦏ (L413863-S1) is only one: endhas/êndhas/ꦲꦼꦤ꧀ꦝꦱ꧀ (L413183-S2). The rest of them, while they have the ngoko register, are not the ngoko _for_ mastaka/ꦩꦱ꧀ꦠꦏ (L413863-S1).

So, you see, many synonym of endhas/sirah/mastaka (head) have the register ngoko, krama, or both, but none of them are paired as _the_ register variant to the triplet endhas/sirah/mastaka. Therefore we need dedicated properties to store these values. Most have one-to-one relations, while some rarely have one-to-two or two-to-one, but never one-to-many. Bennylin (talk) 11:04, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Mahir256, would you like to give your opinion? Regards, ZI Jony ^(Talk) 18:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

@Mahir256, would you like to give your opinion based on the response? Regards, ZI Jony ^(Talk) 08:54, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I am going to  Oppose only because this property (these properties?) is specific to one language and has not as clearly been demonstrated to be useful (and distinct from language style (P6191)) for other languages with similar phenomena. While I don't claim to intuitively understand the system described better than the speakers that use it, from the links provided I'm not as convinced that the alignments are as rigid as claimed by the last response from the property's proposer (except perhaps for the Wiktionary table, although this was created/edited only by this property's proposer and has no external references provided on it); indeed, section 5.6 and 5.7 of the Horne dictionary's front matter suggests that there is fluidity in these correspondences. (There is also no need to add 'synonym' relationships between every pair of possible synonyms if the senses can be linked via item for this sense (P5137) to the same item.) If indeed there is a stronger correspondence between e.g. 'endhas' and 'sirah' compared to with e.g. 'utamangga' and 'pasuhunan' (despite the same Wikidata item being applicable to both), and if this correspondence may be substantiated with a more precise source, then this could perhaps be indicated using the synonym property only between the senses involved in that stronger correspondence qualified with 'language style' pointing to the register in question: 'endhas' 'synonym' 'sirah' ('language style' 'kromo'). Mahir256 (talk) 02:29, 11 October 2024 (UTC)