Talk:Islannit
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Verification for any of the plural forms of this word. — surjection ⟨??⟩ 08:47, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- An expression "tehdä islannit" seems to be fairly well attested, but I don't know any Finnish so I am not sure of the grammar/whether this is a plural form. The meaning seems to be related to the banking collapse in Iceland. In one case, I found "tehdä Argentiinat/Islannit".--Urszag (talk) 21:00, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
- They are plural forms, but it seems the form isn't used outside of that expression. In that case, I'm not exactly sure how to deal with the entry - if I were to decide, there would be an entry for tehdä Islannit, but not for Islannit (unless it's a
{{only used in}}). — surjection ⟨??⟩ 14:44, 26 May 2020 (UTC) - Islannit is now cited as used in that expression. I couldn't really find reliable attestations for the other cases, which may end up getting deleted for that reason. — surjection ⟨??⟩ 20:30, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
- They are plural forms, but it seems the form isn't used outside of that expression. In that case, I'm not exactly sure how to deal with the entry - if I were to decide, there would be an entry for tehdä Islannit, but not for Islannit (unless it's a
- RFV-passed for the nominative plural Islannit; Other plural forms are still under contention. — surjection ⟨??⟩ 21:35, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- RFV-failed for other forms. — surjection ⟨??⟩ 16:57, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
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Somebody has, probably in good faith as the declension table contained the plurals, created all the plural case forms of Islanti (“Iceland”). As it is only one country, I think the plurals should be deleted. Here's the list: Islannit, Islantien, Islanteja, Islanneissa, Islanneista, Islanteihin, Islanneilla, Islanneilta, Islanneille, Islanteina, Islanneiksi, Islannein, Islanneitta, Islanteineen. --Hekaheka (talk) 20:52, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- Figurative uses of the word in plural seem to exist, like an Yle article having "Ehkä vielä jonakin päivänä Suomi tekee Islannit ja pelaa jalkapallon EM-kisoissa". — surjection ⟨??⟩ 21:12, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- With that argument we can add the plurals of many, many proper nouns. For example, will the newspaper header "Miss Suomet vuosilta 1969-89" justify adding "Suomet"? Your example of "Islannit", one might argue is not usage but mention, because the writer has to explain what he means with it. Our CFI requires usage. Further it's a plural of "Islanti" only by form. The true meaning is "Iceland as a model". Therefore the content "nominative plural form of Islanti" is misleading. --Hekaheka (talk) 09:05, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
- I think it'll suffice to say somewhere that plurals of country names are only theoretical but of course they are possible. Displaying them and creating entries only misleads users and learners. E.g. all headwords for proper names for Slavic languages show singular forms only, I have deleted occasionally created plural forms. Delete, IMO. You can check various languages with inflections and plural forms. The treatment of country names is the same - no plurals. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:17, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, it would. My point is that someone could come across these terms and wonder what they mean, so I don't see the reason to get rid of the plural forms even if they're only used figuratively. Another possible use would be something like "minulla ja sinulla taitaa kyllä olla nyt eri Islannit kyseessä" ("I think we two have the different Icelands in mind", in reference to the two completely disagreeing about how the country is), but I suspect that use to not be attestable for this particular word. — surjection ⟨??⟩ 09:54, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
- "With that argument we can add the plurals of many, many proper nouns." That's circular; we should not add the plural of a proper nouns because we don't want to add the plurals of proper nouns. Why not?
- Move to RFV. There's no reason to delete an existing word, be it figurative or not.--Prosfilaes (talk) 10:39, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
- I meant that there must be a reason why we have written the Finnish declension table of every country name except "Islanti" in singular only. Have we suddenly realised that this has been a wrong policy? --Hekaheka (talk) 11:41, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
- It should be. It's probably debatable whether singularia tantum exist in Finnish at all due to the range of figurative uses that plurals have (even for concepts that would otherwise be uncountable). To which extent these should be allowed as proper plural forms haven't been decided, but this is the time if any. I'm personally on the side of including them if they see actual use (as some of them do). Kielitoimiston sanakirja lists plural forms for languages, even (it doesn't have entries for countries in it).
If my stance wasn't clear enough on this, keep these forms on RFD, but I'm fine with sending them to RFV (where they, in all honesty, are not that likely to pass).— surjection ⟨??⟩ 12:11, 8 May 2020 (UTC) - If there is a reason, then mention it. The fact that something has been done that way in the past is practice, not policy, and, as in this case, is likely to have not had widespread discussion like a policy would.
- Again, all words in all languages. That includes plurals of words that exist even if we don't think they should.--Prosfilaes (talk) 12:36, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
- It should be. It's probably debatable whether singularia tantum exist in Finnish at all due to the range of figurative uses that plurals have (even for concepts that would otherwise be uncountable). To which extent these should be allowed as proper plural forms haven't been decided, but this is the time if any. I'm personally on the side of including them if they see actual use (as some of them do). Kielitoimiston sanakirja lists plural forms for languages, even (it doesn't have entries for countries in it).
- I meant that there must be a reason why we have written the Finnish declension table of every country name except "Islanti" in singular only. Have we suddenly realised that this has been a wrong policy? --Hekaheka (talk) 11:41, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
- With that argument we can add the plurals of many, many proper nouns. For example, will the newspaper header "Miss Suomet vuosilta 1969-89" justify adding "Suomet"? Your example of "Islannit", one might argue is not usage but mention, because the writer has to explain what he means with it. Our CFI requires usage. Further it's a plural of "Islanti" only by form. The true meaning is "Iceland as a model". Therefore the content "nominative plural form of Islanti" is misleading. --Hekaheka (talk) 09:05, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
Abstain Proper nouns are used in plural in the meaning 'what X is known for', just like the Yle article Surjection mentioned. By the way, Saksa and Korea merit entries in plural for sure, so there are countries where plurals are needed. Mölli-Möllerö (talk) 15:47, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
- I have RFV'd Islannit, which includes all the plural forms. tehdä Islannit might be attestable as an expression, but if the plural forms aren't outside of it (as they don't seem to be), I'll probably delete them. — surjection ⟨??⟩ 15:52, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
- The form in question is now cited (although the RFV is still ongoing for 7 more days). I suggest the RFD be removed from that one, while the rest of the forms will probably fail RFV instead. — surjection ⟨??⟩ 20:57, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Kept as a redirect to tehdä islannit - at least so far the plural is only used in this expression. I used small initial letter because Islanti is used here as generalized proper noun, compare ottaa ritolat ("to take to one's heels"); see also[1]. Added etymology section explaining the connection with 2016 European Championship games. Edited translations of the usage examples: "do an Iceland" means nothing in English. --Hekaheka (talk) 08:31, 2 December 2020 (UTC)