Talk:Liza Dalby

Not a geisha

Hey, guys. There seems to be confusion about Liza Dalby, with this myth that she was once a geisha. Certainly she spent time with geisha, as indeed Lesley Downer did when she wrote her own book on the geisha world. However there is no evidence to suggest she was a geisha in any sense of the word.

To say she was a "novice" is to indicate that she was a trainee. To say that she was a trainee is to imply she was taking the lessons young Japanese women do in becoming maiko and then geisha. But she did not do that, as she admits - so we cannot refer to her as a "novice geisha". Being a geisha is a lot more than wearing white makeup and having a cute name. If someone wishes to re-write this article more fully, then by all means talk about how she was engaged in the geisha world - and that she accompanied some geisha during their engagements for a year.

But a geisha has to go through years of training as a maiko first - and you cannot become a maiko overnight.

Regards, John Smith's 01:08, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Ah, of course she was too old to become a maiko. However to class her as a geisha, even a novice, is a bit much really. It was more a case of her being done a favour by friends than anything else. John Smith's 01:14, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

A woman can debut as a full-geisha without going through the maiko period, as stated in Dalby's Geisha and Leslie Downer's Women of the Pleasure Quarters (The geiko Kikuryuu had attended college and in her 20's was too old to be a maiko).

True, Dalby was never an official geisha, but it doesn't discredit her research or experience. Claw789 04:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the point I was making was that it's misleading to further the misconception that she was a geisha. It isn't to try to invalidate her research, merely set the record straight. John Smith's 22:34, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but Dalby says directly on her own webpage (and likely in her book, which I haven't read) that she was a geisha. Of course, I understand that she did not, could not, go through the formal training process beginning from childhood. But if she, and Ichiume, and Hasui Kiyo, considered her a geisha, then she was one, no? LordAmeth 09:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Further discussion

To save duplication, more discussion on the content of this article can be found at Talk:Fiona Graham, since the two topics are closely related and one editor is tendentiously editing both articles. Cheers Your Lord and Master (talk) 01:05, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

It's too difficult to follow what's happening over there. All we have to do on this page is follow the sources, and it's fairly well sourced now. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:52, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Dalby as "first foreign geisha"

As Graham and her IP socks are so obsessed with what this talk page says, I thought I'd point out three quotes from a reliable source which is already cited which show that Dalby was the first foreign geisha (empahsis mine):

1) American anthropologist Liza Dalby is famous for being the first Western woman to have ever trained as a geisha.

2) Because of her age, Dalby couldn’t make the conventional debut as a maiko - “Most geisha in Kyoto start out as maiko at 17. I was 24” - but it was agreed that she could instead debut as a full geisha.

3) Dalby finally made her debut in 1976, taking the geisha name Ichigiku, and soon earned a reputation as "the blue-eyed geisha” in the Japanese media.

I hope that clears things up! Regards Your Lord and Master (talk) 04:34, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

That's what she claims. But there's no evidence that she was a geisha. For example, I have not heard or read anything to suggest that her time at functions or parties was billed for. Or that she was on the formal Gion records. John Smith's (talk) 14:11, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I've removed some text because it's misleading. She was not a geisha, regardless of the fact she as allowed to dress up and go to parties. For example, if a group of doctors allowed me to dress up in a white coat and stethoscope, introducing me as "Doctor Smith" to patients and allowing me to observe, that alone would not make me a doctor. Perhaps we could discuss how to change the article further to keep it factual rather than give her the title "geisha". John Smith's (talk) 19:40, 25 August 2011 (UTC)