Talk:Liza Dalby

Not a geisha

Hey, guys. There seems to be confusion about Liza Dalby, with this myth that she was once a geisha. Certainly she spent time with geisha, as indeed Lesley Downer did when she wrote her own book on the geisha world. However there is no evidence to suggest she was a geisha in any sense of the word.

To say she was a "novice" is to indicate that she was a trainee. To say that she was a trainee is to imply she was taking the lessons young Japanese women do in becoming maiko and then geisha. But she did not do that, as she admits - so we cannot refer to her as a "novice geisha". Being a geisha is a lot more than wearing white makeup and having a cute name. If someone wishes to re-write this article more fully, then by all means talk about how she was engaged in the geisha world - and that she accompanied some geisha during their engagements for a year.

But a geisha has to go through years of training as a maiko first - and you cannot become a maiko overnight.

Regards, John Smith's 01:08, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Ah, of course she was too old to become a maiko. However to class her as a geisha, even a novice, is a bit much really. It was more a case of her being done a favour by friends than anything else. John Smith's 01:14, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

A woman can debut as a full-geisha without going through the maiko period, as stated in Dalby's Geisha and Leslie Downer's Women of the Pleasure Quarters (The geiko Kikuryuu had attended college and in her 20's was too old to be a maiko).

True, Dalby was never an official geisha, but it doesn't discredit her research or experience. Claw789 04:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the point I was making was that it's misleading to further the misconception that she was a geisha. It isn't to try to invalidate her research, merely set the record straight. John Smith's 22:34, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but Dalby says directly on her own webpage (and likely in her book, which I haven't read) that she was a geisha. Of course, I understand that she did not, could not, go through the formal training process beginning from childhood. But if she, and Ichiume, and Hasui Kiyo, considered her a geisha, then she was one, no? LordAmeth 09:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Further discussion

To save duplication, more discussion on the content of this article can be found at Talk:Fiona Graham, since the two topics are closely related and one editor is tendentiously editing both articles. Cheers Your Lord and Master (talk) 01:05, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

It's too difficult to follow what's happening over there. All we have to do on this page is follow the sources, and it's fairly well sourced now. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:52, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Dalby as "first foreign geisha"

As Graham and her IP socks are so obsessed with what this talk page says, I thought I'd point out three quotes from a reliable source which is already cited which show that Dalby was the first foreign geisha (empahsis mine):

1) American anthropologist Liza Dalby is famous for being the first Western woman to have ever trained as a geisha.

2) Because of her age, Dalby couldn’t make the conventional debut as a maiko - “Most geisha in Kyoto start out as maiko at 17. I was 24” - but it was agreed that she could instead debut as a full geisha.

3) Dalby finally made her debut in 1976, taking the geisha name Ichigiku, and soon earned a reputation as "the blue-eyed geisha” in the Japanese media.

I hope that clears things up! Regards Your Lord and Master (talk) 04:34, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

That's what she claims. But there's no evidence that she was a geisha. For example, I have not heard or read anything to suggest that her time at functions or parties was billed for. Or that she was on the formal Gion records. John Smith's (talk) 14:11, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I've removed some text because it's misleading. She was not a geisha, regardless of the fact she as allowed to dress up and go to parties. For example, if a group of doctors allowed me to dress up in a white coat and stethoscope, introducing me as "Doctor Smith" to patients and allowing me to observe, that alone would not make me a doctor. Perhaps we could discuss how to change the article further to keep it factual rather than give her the title "geisha". John Smith's (talk) 19:40, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I've reverted your changes. If you want to cite to something in support of your assertions, fine, but your wording does not conform to the cited sources.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:45, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, did you actually read my comment? If so, are you saying that you don't believe me? Please don't just reply with a request for a source, actually address the point I'm making. John Smith's (talk) 10:19, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and maybe you would like to actually read the sources before you direct me to them. For example, read page 3 of the Bardsley article. "Dalby never participated in the formal ritual of sisterhood or charged for her ozashiki appearances". John Smith's (talk) 10:23, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

There are two sources in this part of the article. One is The Telegraph, and the other is a book review of Dalby's book. The book review is probably not the best source for information on whether she was a geisha or not. Here are the two sentences (before your changes):

During her Ph.D studies on geisha, she was invited to join a geisha community in Kyoto. Since she was past the regular apprentice age of 17, and due to her skill on the shamisen, she was allowed to debut as a full geisha under the name Ichigiku.

Here is the material after your changes:

During her Ph.D studies on geisha, she was invited to attend geisha parties in Kyoto and play the shamisen.

The Telegraph says:

Dalby never planned to become a geisha herself, but during the course of her research was eventually invited to join a small geisha community in Kyoto, where the geisha tradition is sometimes said to have originated.

AND

Dalby finally made her debut in 1976, taking the geisha name Ichigiku, and soon earned a reputation as "the blue-eyed geisha” in the Japanese media.

So, The Telegraph fully supports the assertions before your changes and doesn't say anything about "geisha parties". As for your quote from page 3 of the review, the full quote says: "Dalby never participated in the formal ritual of sisterhood or charged for her ozashiki appearances, but she writes in the original preface to Geisha of being interviewed herself in Japan almost as much as she interviewed others, becoming something of a curiosity as the Japanese-speaking American geisha (1983, xv)." (emphasis added) So, what is your point?--Bbb23 (talk) 14:22, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Since when were The Telegraph or Leah Hyslop authorities on geisha or Japanese culture? Newspapers say a lot of things out of ignorance or simplification. And Bardsley did not say "Dalby was a geisha", she was referring to what Dalby herself wrote.

With all due respect, I think the issue is that you don't understand yourself what being a geisha is. It isn't dressing up and going to parties, it's not much different from being part of a profession. Like every lawyer has to go to law school or get a similar qualification. You can't be a lawyer by rocking up to court and defending people. All geisha bill for their attendances and go through an apprenticeship. It's a set pattern. Like, for example, furisode-san. They're not geisha, even though they do the same sort of things, because they do a compacted course. John Smith's (talk) 14:51, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

This is really very simple - per WP:V we follow what the sources say, even if we don't agree with the sources or don't think what they say are true. If other sources can be brought forward, that's fine, but these are the sources we have now and the page should reflect the sources. Truthkeeper (talk) 14:58, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It is true that I don't know much about being a geisha, but I edit all sorts of articles without being an expert on the subject matter. In some ways, it's a bigger problem that you know more (apparently) about being a geisha. If a reliable source says something, it can be asserted and included if it's relevant to the article. The Telegraph is a reliable source, and your dispute with what they're saying is WP:OR. If you want to rewrite it, then the burden is on you to find other reliable sources in support of your assertions, not just your own knowledge about geisha. As for the review, you are correct, and I'd be happy not to cite to the Bardsley review at all because it is in fact a review of Dalby's book, and we can't cite to Dalby for controversial assertions. The Telegraph, standing alone, supports the material.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:00, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

I'll address both your comments. The Telegraph is not necessarily a reliable source for all subject matters. One has to consider the author and the subject matter. I see no evidence that Leah Hyslop knows anything about the subject matter and can make a judgment that Dalby was a geisha.

Bbb23, yes the Bardsley article cannot be used to support the assertion that Dalby was a geisha because the reference to her being a geisha was just referring to what Dalby said in the book. But now we're agreed on this, it's even more true that the quotes I took from the Bardsley article are valid in explaining why Dalby was not a geisha. John Smith's (talk) 23:37, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

But isn't your comment about the The Telegraph based on your own knowledge about geisha, in which case we get back to WP:OR and the need for another source to make your point. As far as Bardsley, yes, we agree on the first part, but not on the second.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:47, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

No, it's that you have to prove that The Telegraph and Hyslop constitute a reliable source for the purposes of declaring Dalby a geisha. Wikipedia does not hand out "reliable source status" to various publications on all subjects. And you'll have to explain why you don't agree with me on the second park about Bardsley. John Smith's (talk) 23:54, 27 August 2011 (UTC)