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Aredoros87

Closed with various sanctions for both Aredoros87 and KhndzorUtogh, see result section for a summary. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:07, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Aredoros87

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: KhndzorUtogh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 01:30, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Aredoros87 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Armenia-Azerbaijan 3

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

22 November 2023 Immediately restores their extremely contentious additions accusing someone of having "sympathy to Nazism" after not replying to a talk page discussion for over a week
23 November 2023 Now adding additional heavily biased sources that contain Armenian genocide denial and inflammatory/offensive comments about Armenians ("Armenian claims related to the traumatic events of 100 years ago", "support claims of Armenian victimhood", "Armenians seem to exhibit amnesia about their brethren’s participation") ("the Michigan Armenian lobby that in all likelihood has been greasing her political career") and otherwise ridiculous false WP:UNDUE claims ("It is practically unknown to most that Armenian antisemitism played a weighty role in Hitler’s Final Solution")
15 December 2023 Makes a WP:PA against me ("Is this the way that you discredit authors that you dislike?") and that I "unlawfully" did the same in an AFD that everyone except Aredoros87 supported. When the previously mentioned genocide denying and xenophobic sources are pointed out to them, Aredoros87 denies those sources have offensive and undue claims
15 December 2023 Continued edit warring and restoring these unreliable sources after all of the issues with them were pointed out

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Participated in process about the area of conflict (that is, requested same sanction against me with diffs that didn't merit action), on 5 December 2023.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint: Just that I didn't want to make an AE report on Aredoros87 any time soon after they made one about me, until they made a personal attack. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 01:30, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Grandmaster: Did you even realize that the UN report is ALREADY IN the article (second to last paragraph) but in a proper context? Did you know that you had added the same information twice? KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:55, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Aredoros87:

List article is a copy of an article that was already deleted in an AFD consensus
I reverted a topic banned user blocked as a result of making that edit.
Okay, how about a source from the Turkish Foreign Minister? "Reynolds does not categorize the Armenian events of 1915 as genocide"
You added a source blaming Armenians for the Final Solution and still reverted it back.

You weren't involved in #1-3 at all. Why is the first time you are making any issue of them while asking for sanctions (again)? This is the exact same thing that ~~Firefangledfeathers~~ ScottishFinnishRadish had described two weeks ago, that you are still throwing mud against the wall to see what sticks. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 23:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Callanecc:

I was literally quoting the closing statement, closed with no formal action. I took the advice to follow WP:BRD very seriously, and have already demonstrated doing so.[1][2][3] --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 06:47, 25 December 2023‎ (UTC)[reply]

@Callanecc: @Vanamonde93: Please allow me to explain in detail, I had summarized "nothing to support any action" based on these quotes: the "no formal action" closing statement, "I'm not seeing enough in those three diffs to support any sanction", "I'm thinking to close this with no other action", and a final comment by Firefangledfeathers advising Aredoros for bringing weak cases to AE and for misrepresented consensus (and yet Aredoros still doing that here). I had never meant to imply that I had nothing to improve myself, I took the BRD advice very seriously and have applied it since.[4][5][6] I was only trying to illustrate Firefangledfeathers's final point which was primarily in support of warning the OP Aredoros for a very weak report. I acknowledge my words incorrectly implied there was nothing I could've done better, but please consider that I tried to keep my words simple and few because of the word limit and respect for the admins time, which is what I think caused this misunderstanding.

And for 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh, I just recalled that it was Grandmaster who first changed the section wording, which they omitted mentioning. Grandmaster was a party to the AA3 case and put on indefinite probation. Indefinite probation meaning, any further edit warring should mean an immediate topic ban. Grandmaster has been edit warring with this same UNHCR statement, using it long after the ceasefire to imply to massacres before it and then, when another user removed it, reverted them and adding the same statement back. This is also the second time Grandmaster tried to tag team in an AE report I created, previously trying to claim obvious selective removal of information was not selective. This now appears to be battleground mentality. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 19:34, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"That's how I realized that KU often knowingly misinterprets information/sources/rules"

Aredoros not only neglected to explain their personal attacks to instead throw as much mud as possible (despite being explicitly told not to do that), they are even making new personal attacks in this very thread. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:20, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"it feels like he wants to remove that article at any cost" yet another casting WP:ASPERSIONS personal attack in this thread by Aerodoros, this time at HistoryofIran. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 23:58, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am aware of the WP:BRD process and WP:CONS building. I do my best to avoid edit warring and work together with other editors, not against them. On one article I was reverted and never reverted the other user back, instead I had a long discussion that the other user who eventually stopped replying a month ago, but I still haven't reverted them since. Callanecc has voiced the concern 'while KU has provided some examples what I think they've demonstrated is that they were doing it sometimes but not in this instance'. In those instances, I felt what I was reverting had to be removed immediately for MOS:ALLEGED in a contentious subject and WP:LIBEL, which states to remove the material when identified. I was only trying to do what I thought the guidelines required; I generally don't mind leaving my changes reverted until a consensus is reached. I didn't even want to make this report, a lot of other users probably would've done so immediately after Aredoros used a source denying the Armenian genocide (explicitly condemned in WP:GS/AA) but I instead wanted to explain why that kind of source isn't reliable. I only felt compelled to make this report after the personal attack. If my understanding of the alleged and libel pages was incorrect, I apologize, and will be even more careful to avoid edit warring in the future. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 18:36, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[7]

Discussion concerning Aredoros87

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Aredoros87

R1.KU presented diffs in a misleading timeframe, but:

I added(14/11/23) sources([8];[9]) day after KU claimed that sources don’t mention it. After his revert(21/11/23), I assumed his WP:GF in edit-summary and talk-page.
He cherry-picked and calledthe source "propaganda". Then complained about WP:RSAGE and asked more sources[3]. Then claimed the source was primary and removed content from articles. ([10];[11]). Again claimedsource doesn't mention what I said. I listed all mentionings.Then KU repeats same arguments and tries to discredit all 8 sources. For example, he claims author has "COI" because he gave an interviewabout political-economical relations, or tries to discredit source because author is founder of AZ-US cultural foundation.
Calling well-known scholar "genocide-denier" because he said"I cannot make juridistic assestments" is nonsense.
Last message on talk-page was posted by me(23/11/23). After ~month(14/12/23) KU suddenly deletedcontent with 8 sources. Then I restored and talkedabout it.

R2.I support WP:BOOMERANG. KU constantly POV-pushes:

redirected article, claiming it was "copy" of another article. In reality, KU deleted well-written and sourced articleand redirected to low-quality article.
claimed to be restoring removed citations[12]. In reality, KU removed sourced information about Turkic inhabitants.
changed "Claims of violence against Armenians" to "Massacre of Armenians," saying it's massacre as there's confirmation of civilian killed[13]. However, no reliable source supports that. Even UN stated "there's no violence"against civilians.
discredits sources[7] he doesn't like as "partisan” and parallelly defends partisan outlets like Armenian Revolutionary Federation

R3.I sincerely apologize for inconvenience I have unintentionally caused. As a newcomer, I made efforts to familiarize with Wikipedia policies, but I now realize–I should be more patient in editing and commenting, and I promise to learn. I must admit, I was confused by double-standards of experienced editors: when I raised concerns about sources, I was reverted[14], and was told sources not listed in WP:RSP are reliable. However, same user reverted my edits on another article, saying sources are unreliable, even though they weren't in WP:RSP.

That's how I realized that KU often knowingly misinterprets information/sources/rules. For example, KU even in AE[10]:

- referenced a dubious sourcewrongly claiming that "children being beheaded," however source states: "five civilians died as a result of shelling".

- says he deleted the article as there was an AFD in 2018. But, KU fails to mention AFD was about one-entry article with no sources, whereas deleted article had 12,000bytes and 9 sources. Why didn’t he merge content to improve Wikipedia, but choose deleting? Just compare before and after.

- says he was reverting edits of banned user. I didn't find policy justifying that. Moreover, his edit comment was, "Restoring removed citations", but now claiming he was reverting.

@Vanamonde93: I would like to let you know that I didn't write that article, but translated. Aredoros87 (talk) 21:00, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just briefly, re reverting banned user edits, see WP:BANREVERT and WP:BLOCKREVERT. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:05, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

R4.@Black Kite: I found “Good article” and decided to translate it. I admit, article I translated isn't perfect. I guess I expected that it'll require collaboration to improve, since it was first article I ever translated. I like translating articles and always announce what articles I'm planning to translate[1]. Everyone are welcomed to help me with translation in a friendly and constructive way.

I learned original author is banned here only during AfD, when I tried to invite him for discussions.[2]. Is it prohibited to translate article if author is banned here?

HistoryofIran took article straight to AFD, which was closed with no consensus to delete, but with recommendation to improve it though editing[3]. Immediately after HistoryofIran requested title change and started removing parts of article[4]. While I agree with some of removals, some I don’t really understand. However, when I tried to join the talk[5] , I felt strong tension from the HistoryofIran[6], so I decided to leave it for more experienced editors to deal with. Aredoros87 (talk) 18:22, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

R5.@Firefangledfeathers@Black Kite@Callanecc Let me explain myself. I'm new to Wikipedia, and I admit I'm not perfect. I sincerely apologize for inconvenience I unintentionally caused and assure you I'm learning from these incidents to avoid repeating them.I have no one to mentor me, my learning process revolves around familiarizing myself with policies and observing the editors I encounter. HistoryofIran, I apologize if I somehow offended you. I didn't mean to, I was simply tying to express how I felt during our interaction. I didn’t mean to WP:PA anyone,and I apologize if I did. I realize that I was genuinely confused, because as new editor I was partially mirroring experienced editors I encounter. It's difficult to explain, but I'll attempt to explain by example: I noticed Beshogur raised WP:NPOV and WP:REDFLAG concerns and reverted edit[1] and then KU reinstated it without engaging in any discussion, but with the addition of new material[2] I now understand this wasn't correct way of editing, and the best course of action is to initiate a discussion and refrain from making edits until consensus is reached. However, at time, I believed it to be the norm. It feels unfair to be indefinitely banned for beginner mistakes I made while just starting to learn or for the flaws in first article I had ever translated. Aredoros87 (talk) 09:08, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Grandmaster

Per WP:Boomerang, I think it would be appropriate to look into KhndzorUtogh's own recent activity. Today he removed from 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh the information provided by the top international organization, the UN, claiming that the UN info was false, despite no authoritative international organization or other third party source contesting it: [15] [16] Previously, he was among those who objected to inclusion of the same information in the related article of Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians. In order to resolve the dispute, I followed the advice of an admin and did an RFC on whether the UN information on violence against civilians during the recent hostilities should be included or not. The overwhelming community consensus was that the UN information should be included, and it was restored to the article. [17] Now KhndzorUtogh removes the same information from another article on the related topic, despite the clear community consensus that this information is relevant to the topic. Do we have to do RFCs on the same topic on every article concerning the same event, or it is enough to form the community consensus once and follow it? Grandmaster 10:14, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The information about the UN mission at the bottom of the article omits any mention of the UN mission report that it "did not come across any reports — either from the local population or from others — of violence against civilians following the latest ceasefire". This is the same situation that led to RFC in the article about the flight of Karabakh Armenians, where the UN mission was mentioned, but the part about civilian casualties was omitted. And 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh and Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians are pretty much the same article split in 2, as one event led to the other. The arguments against inclusion of the UN mission findings about violence against civilians were discussed in much detail during the RFC, and were rejected by the community, but KhndzorUtogh keeps bringing them up again on a related article. Grandmaster 10:50, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

With regard to this diff, when the UNCHR statement was removed with the comment that its place implied a rebuttal of a later statement by another source, I rearranged it chronologically to address the concern, when that was reverted by the same user, I continued discussion at talk. It is also worth mentioning that back in 2021 there was a complaint about KU [18], then a new user, of undoing edits by the same above-mentioned banned user Curious Golden regardless of their merit, and he was advised by the admins against doing that. Grandmaster 23:20, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Firefangledfeathers. I only restored the content because the reverting user stated in his edit summary that its place implies that it serves as a rebuttal to the claim by Manasyan, but its date is wrong for it to do so. As one can see my edit summary, I put all the sources in chronological order, added date to UNHCR report, thinking that it would address his concerns. But when the same user removed the content second time, this time saying nothing about placement, but claiming that it was generally "dated" [19], I continued the discussion at talk. The only reason that I restored the UNHCR was that I thought that the objections could be addressed by sorting information according to their dates. I always try to resolve disputes in accordance to the rules, and it was me who started the RFC, and I've been considering another RFC on the same issue, and sought an advice from Callanecc [20]. I was just unsure whether it was worth doing a repeated RFC on the same issue. I think we see stonewalling from KU, because first they argued that the UN was undue, when the community rejected that, he said that the UN was "dated", while there was no information from the UN or any other independent party that would supersede it. When asked which Wikipedia rule requires to use only "up to date" info, KU referred to MOS:DATED [21], which in fact is not a rule, but a guidance on how to format articles, and it says quite the opposite, that the information needs to be dated precisely. A user who's been around for 2 years should be able to understand the rules. Grandmaster 09:25, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by HistoryofIran

"I would like to let you know that I didn't write that article, but translated" Didn't wanna take part in this, but I find this somewhat disingenuous and deflecting. No one forced you to translate that mess, which is full of non-WP:RS and misused citations (I had to use 2 ish hours to only somewhat clean it up), not to mention the disconnected info, and bizarre claim of all Turks in that area and period being "Azerbaijani", an ethnonym which was not even present back then. The original article was created by a user who is indeffed in the English Wikipedia [22], and to make it worse, you have openly stated that you're planning to translate more of their messy (essentially WP:POVFORK) articles [23]. This is quite concerning, especially when there are suspicions of you not being new here [24]. Moreover, you were not cooperative in the AFD despite the evidence presented, even making a suggestion seemingly based on the one given by the indeffed user [25], but worse. While they suggested changing it to "Turkic-Mongol cultural relations in the South Caucasus and Iranian Azerbaijan", you suggested it as Turkic-Mongol cultural relations in the Caucasian and Iranian Azerbaijan, despite this clearly contradicting the presented WP:RS (there was no "Caucasian Azerbaijan" at that time). You then amongst other things went on to repeat the same suggestion at Talk:Azerbaijani-Mongolian cultural relations. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:17, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you thought you would gain by this, going more after me than addressing the concerns I made. Quoting a 7 year old comment when I was a brat and didn't know better, not to mention casting random accusations, especially when the WP:RS is literally there for you to read [26]; "I'm really struggling to understand why HistoryofIran is so harsh, it feels like he wants to remove that article at any cost. I can only guess that it's something personal,". And you're not really being completely honest here either, I did not merely "remove parts of the article" and the recommendation was not merely "to improve it though editing", the AFD [27], talk page [28] and my edit summaries [29] are there for everyone to see it. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:40, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk work (Aredoros87)

~~I don't intend to respond here except as a clerk.~~ Aredoros87, you greatly exceeded your word limit, and I have cut your most recent response. You are free to shorten your statement to accommodate further responses—as long as you don't meaningfully change any part that has been responded to—or request a word limit extension. Please assume that you will need space for further replies and trim accordingly. I'm unlikely to accept an extension request until it's clear that responding admins would benefit from further info, but such a request might be granted by someone else. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:48, 22 December 2023 (UTC) striking a bit 23:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
KhndzorUtogh: you are at your word limit. Please do not reply further unless granted an extension. You may want to proactively trim. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Grandmaster: you are at your word limit. Please do not reply further unless granted an extension. You may want to proactively trim. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:41, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A note in case it helps: I'm unlikely to grant word limit extensions at this time. I think the current length is already a barrier in getting admin attention. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:23, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I granted KU and GM another 200 words each per requests at my user talk and am granting Aredoros87 the same for fairness. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:33, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Aredoros87

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I said I was just going to clerk, but I forgot I'd reviewed a prior dispute between these two. Might have thoughts later, but I'd prefer to hear from other admins first. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It seems like there are two issues here:
1. A87's and KU's conduct at Ruben Darbinyan and its talk page.
2. A87's and KU's conduct in the wider AA topic area.
I think there's enough evidence presented—which I haven't reviewed quite enough yet to suggest any action—for responding admins to come to some sort of conclusion for #1, even if that conclusion is inaction. I think it makes sense to start small and go big, so I'd prefer to postpone review of #2 or have it take place in a separate filing. A narrow finding of fact might be useful in processing the wider issue. I'm partially favoring this process option because I, and probably many admins, will be busy with holiday obligations for the next week or so. Any admin that's enthusiastic about a wider and deeper review should go ahead. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:23, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm grateful for the additional analysis. I'll say that I really did mean for the advice to KU to be a non-warning. I don't think we're quite at "something must be done", but I do agree that some sanctions could help relieve contention in this topic area. I'm pro-IBAN. As I understand the ban, they could still bump into each other, but they'd need to neutrally seek dispute resolution—without comment on the other party—rather than debate 1 on 1 and revert war. A TBAN from just Nagorno-Karabakh wouldn't cover something like the Darbinyan article. How about a shorter AA-wide TBAN? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:03, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  - Rather than a TBAN I'd be okay with trying an individual consensus-required type restriction where if their edits in the topic area are reverted they need to establish a consensus for the edit before readding it (with the usual exemptions). Ping Vanamonde93 for your thoughts. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:02, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Noting that I've changed my mind from my initial suggestion of a replacement to an IBAN (that is, a ban on reverting each other) as I just noticed above there is still commenting on each other above, rather than the substantative issue, when it's really not required. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:12, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    - We've got something of a logjam of sanction proposals on the table. I think we're all in agreement that both editors need some sanction. I like Callanecc's most recent proposal, and I would love to see us wrap this up in the next 48 hours or so. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:08, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My analysis of the evidence presented above:

I believe we're in WP:ARBAA3#Administrators encouraged territory so we're at a spot where sanctions are necessary. The goal of this thread will be to determine what those sanctions are.
Aredoros87 filed an AE request concerning KhndzorUtogh earlier this month. The request was closed on 12 December with advice to both editors. For KhndzorUtogh to follow BRD more closely, check content they're adding to the lead is sourced and include reasons with reverts. A87 was advised to build a stronger case before coming to AE and not to cite consensus where none clearly exists. Given the history between these two editors of not working well together and that they've recently filed requests against each other a mutual interaction been seems a good starting point.
Re KhndzorUtogh:

Despite this month's AE thread being closed with advice to them, KhndzorUtogh says above that the the AE thread saw nothing to support any action against them [30] which suggests that they don't feel they need to improve their conduct.
I find this revert concerning given the reminder about BRD in the previous AE thread and that there was a talk page discussion underway that they had not contributed to and rather than do so first they reverted as the first step.
At Ramil Safarov, while dismissing a concern A87 had about sources KU added to the article, KU implied that as the sources aren't listed at WP:RSP they are fine to use and reverted A87's removal of them.
At 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh, after the December AE thread was closed KU changed the section heading regarding civilian deaths from "Claims of violence against" to "Massacre of". Around 24 hours later this change was then reverted by A87. Approximately seven days later KU changed it to "Reports of violence against" without noting this in the edit summary. Neither change was discussed on the article talk page.
At Ruben Darbinyan, KU edit warred rather than allowing discussion to take place without this added conflict. 3 November (then started talk section) 21 November (seven days after last talk page reply) 13 December (three weeks after last talk page reply) instead of only engaging constructively in discussion to come to a resolution. KU's third revert occured after they had not replied on the talk page for three weeks following A87's most recent talk page comment and article edit.

Re Aredoros87 :

At Ruben Darbinyan, A87 edit warred rather than allowing discussion to take place without this added conflict. 10 November (5 days after last talk page reply), 23 November 15 December. The last two reverts were following KU returning to the article after a break and reverting.
A87 engaged in incivil behaviour and made a personal attack towards KU at Talk:Ruben Darbinyan.

Summary: As I said above the starting point for sanctions appears to be a mutual IBAN between A87 and KU. I'm currently considering whether further sanctions are necessary. That might be a crafted revert restriction (BRD with a long timeframe or a paired down version of something like consensus required) or a topic ban. I'm not convinced that this'd work in practice but another option might be that if a source they wish to use is challenged (including reverted) they need to establish a consensus in favour of using it (on the article talk page, RSN, etc) before they can readd it. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:20, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

After seeing KU's reply I'm more inclined to TBAN than I was before. Their justification that they were quoting from the closure statement of the last AE request is patently false, "closed with no formal action" is not the same as "saw nothing to support any action". If they believe that that is a quote then I have no faith in their ability to assertain information from sources. In the last AE thread they were advised to follow BRD more closely and while KU has provided some examples what I think they've demonstrated is that they were doing it sometimes but not in this instance. For example, KU said that they added the "Massacres of..." section header and so when it was changed by someone else then didn't follow BRD when changing it back.
I'm also more convinced of the POV editing from A87 and that to counter it required a TBAN, potentially limited to particilar areas around conflict in particular.
Re Vanamonde93's suggestion of a logged warning, I think in some topic areas, especially where ArbCom has passed an "Administrators encouraged" remedy, we should look to seeing unlogged reminders/advice and logged warnings as effectively equivalent. If advice didn't work we should strongly consider skipping logged warnings in favour of more impactful sanctions. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for organizing this evidence, Callanecc. Regarding your second KU diff, hadn't they responded twice in the talk page discussion before reverting? As I see it, at the moment of their revert, there were two talk page participants in favor of including the UNHCR paragraph and two opposed, and I'm surprised to see that GM restored the content while consensus was so unclear. GM was leaning on an RfC at a different article, with disagreement about its applicability being reasonable. Am I misreading? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:03, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you're correct. I suspect I misread the month of the edit. I've struck it above. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:59, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is a difficult situation, that is in many ways similar to nationalist POV disputes in other contemporary ethno-nationalist conflicts. It's made more difficult by the fact that many sources are not in English, and assessing their quality and partisanship is therefore very challenging.
I'm seeing sub-par behavior from both editors that smacks of POV intent; reverting while discussion is ongoing, using marginal sources to support a preferred version of content but opposing sources of similar quality elsewhere, using marginal sources to make the most sweeping statements possible, edit-warring slowly instead of discussing (not every behavior is visible for both users). KU is also showing some evidence of stonewalling/filibustering, while I'm more concerned at A87's use of sources (including at this AfD, that isn't mentioned here AFAICS).
That said, I'm not necessarily seeing a smoking gun here that would justify a draconian sanction (such as a CT-wide TBAN); and I'm not sure what lesser scope I would choose. Callanecc, I'm somewhat opposed to an IBAN. This isn't a particularly wide topic; I find it difficult to believe these two can continue to edit constructively in this topic without running into each other constantly. I would prefer a logged warning about battleground behavior. Vanamonde (Talk) 13:09, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Callanecc: I share your concern about KU's response to the previous AE. I remain opposed to an IBAN, but as I said above I would consider a TBAN of limited scope. My hesitation is with finding appropriate scope. In my assessment KU has been more immediately disruptive within the locus of the present-day dispute between the two countries, and A87's behavior is concerning topic-wide, but I would not want to give A87 the wider sanction here. How do you (and Firefangledfeathers feel about a 3-month TBAN from the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict for both parties? That's the best I can come up with at the moment. Vanamonde (Talk) 09:30, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Callanecc: I'm okay with requiring both these editors to obtain consensus for their edits within this topic. I would like the closing statement also to remind them about battleground conduct, though, because we're entering territory where sanctions for battleground behavior may need to be applied with no further warning (I know we can do that already, technically, but it feels more reasonable to do so after a formal warning). Vanamonde (Talk) 14:04, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have to say that User:HistoryofIran's evidence is concerning. Black Kite (talk) 16:42, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:08, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Me too. I'm currently considering whether it pushes me over the line to TBAN. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:29, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed sanctions

I've created this subsection so we can keep track of how we're closing this. I know it's not required but hopefully others find it useful. Admins feel free to add your username or other proposals. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:16, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Vanamonde93, Firefangledfeathers, and Black Kite: Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:19, 27 December 2023 (UTC) [reply]

Proposals and consensus checking

Aredoros87:

Formal warning re battleground, ...[please add to this list]

Support: Callanecc, Firefangledfeathers

IBAN from KhndzorUtogh

Support: Callanecc, Firefangledfeathers

Requirement to obtain consensus whenever their edits are reverted in AA2 topic area.

Support: Callanecc, Vanamonde, Firefangledfeathers

TBAN from Azerbaijan

Support 3 months:

Support indef:

TBAN from Nagorno-Karabakh conflict

Support 3 months: Vanamonde

Support indef:

TBAN from Armenia, Azerbaijan, and related ethnic conflicts, broadly construed

Support 1 month: Firefangledfeathers

Support 3 months: Firefangledfeathers

Support indef: Callanecc (see notes)

KhndzorUtogh:

Formal warning re battleground, ...[please add to this list]

Support: Callanecc, Firefangledfeathers

IBAN from Aredoros87

Support: Callanecc, Firefangledfeathers

Requirement to obtain consensus whenever their edits are reverted in AA2 topic area.

Support: Callanecc, Vanamonde, Firefangledfeathers

TBAN from Nagorno-Karabakh conflict

Support 3 months: Vanamonde

Support indef:

TBAN from Armenia, Azerbaijan, and related ethnic conflicts, broadly construed

Support 1 month: Firefangledfeathers

Support 3 months:

Support indef:

Notes: I've supported an indef TBAN for A87 primarily based on HistoryofIran's evidence and A87's reply. I've gone for the indef as I believe that A87 needs to learn about Wikipedia's norms in other topic areas rather than just needing a break from the topic area and effectively 'waiting out' the TBAN. I'm considering the same for KU but haven't decided yet. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:45, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Closing

I'm intending to close with in the next 24 hours with the following sanctions:

Aredoros87

formal warning re battleground editing and engaging constructively with consensus building
IBAN from KhndzorUtogh
indef restriction to obtain consensus whenever their edits are reverted in AA2 topic area
3-month TBAN from AA2 topic area.

KhndzorUtogh

formal warning re battleground editing, edit warring and engaging constructively with consensus building
IBAN from Aredoros87
indef restriction to obtain consensus whenever their edits are reverted in AA2 topic area.

@Vanamonde93, Firefangledfeathers, and Black Kite: are you okay with those sanctions? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:31, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Thank you for pushing this forward. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:42, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm okay with this, and thanks from me too. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:31, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, sounds good, thanks. Black Kite (talk) 13:55, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rsk6400

Rsk6400 and Crash48 topic banned from Ukrainian language for 12 months. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:59, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Rsk6400

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Crash48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:16, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Rsk6400 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:ARBEE

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

WP:STONEWALL:
1. 13 November 2023 reverted my addition with the message stop edit warring. You have no consensus for that; two weeks earlier, on 29 October 2023, I had pinged him on the article talk page asking whether he had any opposition against my addition; Rsk6400 ignored my question, and it remains unanswered to this day.
2. 13 November 2023 refused to state any specific reasons for reverting my addition when I asked him on his user talk page.
3. 16 December 2023 claimed that most of the draft I created is original synthesis of primary sources; but then refused the moderator's request to identify the text that is synthesis from primary sources.

WP:FILIBUSTER:
1. 28 November 2023 feigned willingness to participate in a mediated DR; but then, over the course of a month, refused to suggest any specific change to the article, or to relate to any specific change suggested by me.
2. 10 December 2023 stated that after a draft of the proposed article section is created, he'd like to take part in the process of improving the draft; but after the draft was created, he refused to contribute even a single edit to it.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict on 24 November 2023, and further warned by the DR moderator on 4 December 2023, on 5 December 2023 and on 22 December 2023 as he kept on filibustering without engaging in the discussion of the content whose inclusion he opposes.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

See WP:DRN#Ukrainian language for the DR which is now closed as failed.

Earlier, on 20 September 2023, Rsk6400 stated that the reason why he reverted my addition was "because it was without context". Then, on 22 September 2023, Rsk6400 added a "context" to the article to his satisfaction; but he insists on reverting my addition even though the "context" he had required is now present.

The example when an editor refuses to accept a change unless some condition is complied with, but it is not a condition that has any basis in Wikipedia policies or guidelines is specifically listed as a case of stonewalling, and Rsk6400's condition that primary sources should not be used here[31] has no basis in Wikipedia policies or guidelines.

Regarding the accusations of me edit warring: WP:DRNC#How to respond to a "no consensus" edit summary advises, upon not receiving any response on the talk page from the revertor within a few days, to reapply the change, prior to taking the dispute to other forums. This is the recommended course of action that I followed, unlike Rsk6400 none of whose reverts was preceded with an attempt to discuss the content that he disputes.

@Mzajac: indeed, about a half dozen editors alleged that my proposed additions are WP:SYNTH. Each one of these editors refused to substantiate their allegations. The multitude of stonewalling editors expressing baseless allegations should not be mistaken for a consensus.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [32]

Discussion concerning Rsk6400

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Rsk6400

The issue was discussed at

Talk:Ukrainian language#Little Russian language
Talk:Ukrainian_language#Pereiaslav_and_Western_Ukraine
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 107#Talk:Ukrainian language#Little Russian language
[Arbitration requests https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&oldid=1185623520#Ukrainian_language]
Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Ukrainian_language
After filing this request, Crash48 also started an RfC at Talk:Ukrainian_language#Request_for_comment_on_adding_a_section_on_the_names_of_the_language.

Re "Stonewall" 3: The moderator misunderstood my point, which was "The claim ... is not really supported by the source." (From the diff given by Crash48)

Re "Filibuster" 2: When I stated my willingness to improve the draft, there were three editors in the discussion. I was hoping that the third editor would provide a sensible draft, but they withdrew from the discussion.

I'll gladly answer to the other points if an admin has any questions.

Please note that Crash48 says that I "feigned willingness" (against AGF) and that they continued edit warring at Ukrainian language after they accepted the rules of the moderated discussion. I'll provide the diffs as soon as I can, but please excuse me for now because of Christmas celebrations (Happy Xmas to all who celebrate that feast !) Rsk6400 (talk) 15:48, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that I informed the third party of the DNR of this discussion[33].

Replying to Robert McClenon's statement: It's not true that I "wanted to roll back the article to a stable version". I demanded that the rule be applied according to which the mediation failed because Crash48 edited the article after having accepted the rules.[34] I also wanted that you saw that you were mistaken when saying that Crash48 made that edit "so soon after I [Robert McClenon] provided the rules."[35] It's also not true that you "had to" collapse much of the discussion. At least everything that I said was said for procedural reasons. The extracts from the discussion (8th to 10th statements) which you presented here are arbitrarily chosen. Of course, I said that "most" was original synthesis. But the most important claim was "not really supported by the source." I'm really at a loss how you could misunderstand me so often and so deeply. I reject your final statement that it was me who "made reasoned discussion impossible." Rsk6400 (talk) 19:40, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I did anything that merits a formal TBAN, but I certainly lost my nerve and need to disengage from the topic. I just removed Ukrainian language from my watchlist and will not edit that page or anything belonging to the topic ("topic" as defined by WP:TBAN) for at least 12 months. Robert McClenon, I certainly didn't intend to gaslight you, Manyareasexpert explained my idea better than I did. Rsk6400 (talk) 11:19, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Robert McClenon

I was the moderator at DRN of the dispute over the content of the Ukrainian language article. When I begin mediation of a content dispute about a contentious topic, I instruct the principals to acknowledge that they are aware that the topic is contentious. Some topics are subject to battleground editing because they have historically been real battlegrounds. Ukraine is in Eastern Europe, which is where World War Two began. It is also the location of the bloodiest war of the twenty-first century.

This was a difficult mediation. Both Crash48 and Rsk6400 had to be warned. I had to collapse back-and-forth discussion. Rsk6400 wanted to roll back the article to a stable version, which I did not do, because my objective is to improve the article going forward rather than to go back. Rsk6400 wanted me to fail the mediation because Crash64 had edited the article after I had said not to edit the article. I could have failed the mediation at this point, but chose not to do so, because I was trying at least to get the parties to agree as to what they disagreed about.

Things got worse on 20 December, when I tried to explain what I saw as the situation. I thought that I was quoting Rsk6400, and they denied having said that there was original synthesis from primary sources. This appears to be an attempt to gaslight the moderator. I failed the moderation when I thought that I was being gaslighted.

In Rsk6400's Eighth Statement, they wrote:

Commenting on this version of the draft: Most of it is original synthesis of primary sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ADispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=1190235427&oldid=1190181961

So in my Tenth Statement, I wrote:

I was mistaken in my statement about what Rsk6400 wrote about Crash48's section on name. They said that the section consisted largely of synthesis from primary sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ADispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=1190852606&oldid=1190699459

Then in Rsk6400's Tenth Statement, they wrote:

Dear moderator, the whole thing has become too frustrating for me. You misunderstood my eighth statement once again. The claim in the first sentence "[before mid-19th century] the language was usually named Ruthenian or Little Russian" is not really supported by the source. The source (Flier & Graziosi) is of course a secondary source. I did not claim that this was original synthesis as you mistakenly claimed in your last statement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ADispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=1191238647&oldid=1191110219

Maybe they aren't trying to confuse the moderator, which may be like trying to confuse a jury, but the effect is that they made reasoned discussion impossible. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:24, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, User:Manyareasexpert, for trying to explain what Rsk6400 is saying, but I am no longer mediating this dispute, and I do not plan to resume mediating it. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:37, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think that I am over and out, but will need permission to add more words if I am pinged again. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:37, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Manyareasexpert

Greetings, just a small comment regarding "Most of it is original synthesis of primary sources" and "is not really supported by the source" to @Robert McClenon 's attention. Both can be true, the section of the text could be "original synthesis" mostly, and the particular sentence out of it may "not really be supported by the source". Indeed, if we look at the text Draft:Ukrainian language/Names/Crash48, it has an extensive collection of facts (primary sources) of how Ukrainian was named Little Russian and Ruthenian (confirming synthesis), and the best I can find confirming "[before mid-19th century] the language was usually named Ruthenian or Little Russian" at the source given [36] is ... the “Little Russian” language (the term used for Ukrainian in the Russian Empire)... and ... It was during this period that elites on both sides of the border began to apply the term Ukrainian to the varieties formerly called Ruthenian and Little Russian., and @Rsk6400 may hold the opinion that The source only makes the corresponding statement in a specific context, i.e. to specify the language it is talking about Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Eighth statements by editors (Ukrainian language) . Manyareasexpert (talk) 09:52, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mzajac

Crash48’s proposed edits to the article have been extensively argued in multiple discussions as noted above by about a half dozen editors, including myself. They do not have consensus. They are not getting any closer to consensus.

Kudos to Rsk6400 for being the only one with the patience to continue engaging tirelessly with Crash48. They don’t deserve to be singled out and accused of obstruction, because they are not the only one opposed.

This is getting nowhere. It seems disruptive. It should end. The proposed changes shouldn’t be made without consensus, so maybe the best action is to declare a moratorium for a cooldown period while everyone involved continues with productive editing on other articles. —Michael Z. 03:07, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Rsk6400

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Crash48's contributions to the mediation are filled with sections where they demonstrate a battleground mentality. For example Third statement and Fourth statement.
Robert McClenon's statement does a good job of summarising Rsk6400's stonewalling in this discussion. I also found Rsk6400's focus that the mediation should have failed when Crash48 edited the article exemplified their stonewalling and battleground mentaility throughout the mediation.
Both editors also engaged in (slow) edit warring at the Ukrainian language article. Based on the above I would support topic banning both editors from the Ukrainian language. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:07, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just noting that I'm intending to close this with the above sanctions in the next 18 hours or so. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 12:52, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2603:6011:4902:a77f:e410:75e4:4408:ca95

IP blocked for 72 hours by Isabelle Belato. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:38, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning 2603:6011:4902:a77f:e410:75e4:4408:ca95

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Buidhe (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 08:35, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: 2603:6011:4902:a77f:e410:75e4:4408:ca95 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_4#ARBPIA_General_Sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

All of these are editing in I-P without extended confirmed permissions, made after the notification on their talk page.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, at 8:00 on 27 December 2023

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I think it's possible that the IP just doesn't know what a talk page or edit history is, but I'm not sure how to get through to them.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [37]

Discussion concerning 2603:6011:4902:a77f:e410:75e4:4408:ca95

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by 2603:6011:4902:a77f:e410:75e4:4408:ca95

Statement by (username)

Result concerning 2603:6011:4902:a77f:e410:75e4:4408:ca95

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I've blocked the IPv6 for a period of 72hrs. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 14:09, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Nableezy

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – 20:35, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: 90 day topic ban

Administrator imposing the sanction: ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: Notified

Statement by Nableezy

I was warned for this response to another editor on 01:22, 25 December 2023, a response that had already been modified prior to any warning for that matter (23:55, 24 December 2023). I was then topic banned with the diffs supporting the ban 12:27, 24 December 2023 (pre warning, though also cautioned about that edit on 13:37, 24 December 2023), this revert and edit summary, apparently for calling the grammar "trash", a response on my talk page about that edit (2023-12-25 22:14:30), and my participation at an AN thread. SFR has said these demonstrate a pattern of battleground editing, but I dont see how. He has also said that The individual interactions are not enough, in and of themselves, to sanction, e.g. your needlessly inflammatory edit summary (which should have been the first diff, not a repeat of the discussion on your talk page) which you tacitly admitted was unduly harsh. The problem is that it has remained a common occurrence after warnings. But the only thing that has been shown post warning is the AN thread and the revert/response on my talk page, all the other diffs pre-date that warning. And regarding the AN thread, in which I said that an editor calling a clearly good faith editor NOTHERE was uncivil and I criticized an editor attempting to overstate the level of consensus for sanctions, my views were basically accepted by an uninvolved admin (here) and another editor was convinced by my argument to adjust their previous position (here). I dont see how politely engaging in the substance of arguments on AN is "battleground mentality". I can admit that the 12:27, 24 December 2023 edit was SOAP in response to SOAP and I need to not do that, but it has not re-occurred since any warning. As far as the edit summary, I was unaware we may not criticize edits. The sentence was in fact poorly written, and I dont think it merits a topic ban to say that in an edit summary. We arent editing a fourth grade play here, this is supposedly an encyclopedia written in English, and criticism of poor English being placed in the leads of highly visible articles is not, in my view, any type of offense at all, much less evidence of "battleground behaviour" that merits a topic ban. SFR's claim that my supposed problematic behavior remained a common occurrence after warnings is unsubstantiated in my view. He has said he cautioned me to stop arguing with Andrevan, but I had no interaction ban and I do not know how to respond to people making arguments that I feel are misrepresenting both the sources and our policies without saying so. But given SFR's own admission that none of the edits merit sanctioning, and the fact that they all, excepting the edit summary calling poor grammar "trash" and the AN thread, pre-date any warning, I dont see how this ban is justified on the merits and I request it be vacated.

There are now several more diffs supposedly substantiating "veiled or not so veiled commentary on other editors' motives". Makes no mention of any motives, is a response to somebody citing NOTNEWS in a deletion discussion, which applies to routine announcements, is a remark on the systemic bias of covering all acts of Palestinian violence while not covering Israeli violence, is another remark on the systemic bias of requiring murder convictions to call the purposeful killing of a human a murder when the circumstances dictate that will never happen. None of those are about another editors motives. The last diff was a result of my misreading the prior comment, I read it as claiming that the IDF had not killed these three people, and I apologized immediately upon recognizing my error. And none of those demonstrate any ongoing issue post warning, being that they all came prior to the warning. Also, I dont think its really fair to after imposing a ban and having it appealed to then tack on other supposed issues. I would have addressed those in my initial statement if I had been aware they were considered in the original ban. nableezy - 21:51, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I can only answer for the diffs I’ve been given and I don’t think you have substantiated any disruptive pattern, and certainly not after your warning. nableezy - 22:42, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Would also request topic ban violations be enforced here. nableezy - 23:02, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

SFR no it’s an indication that I misread and that when I realized my error I recognized my mistake. We don’t typically hold against editors mistakes they make that they sincerely apologize for, without prompting by an admin I’d add. nableezy - 23:25, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If there is anything in the involved editor section that needs to be responded to please let me know, and editors should know well enough to know when they are involved or uninvolved. But I have absolutely substantiated each of my claims about other edits that are being raised here. nableezy - 16:55, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Galobtter I agree that Ive been more frustrated and harsher than I should be, and I have been trying to moderate that, and I agree with Harry's advice, and hell I agree with SFR's advice too. I understand the cause of the ban, but I dont think that if a warning is given for past behavior and I havent done anything since that warning to indicate that I am continuing with that behavior that a ban is merited. I was warned on December 25th and banned on December 26th. I cannot see how any of my contributions in those intervening 39 hours were indicative of a battleground mentality or poor civility or really anything else to object to. I am trying to rein in my frustration here. But for the record, I called the grammar of that edit trash. The reason I removed it instead of fixing the grammar though was that it was the subject of an ongoing RFC. And I dont know why calling poor grammar poor is a problem for an English encyclopedia editor. But I *did* recognize that it was harsh, my response to Elad on my talk page was Which part? The grammar is garbage part? Sorry, Ill try to be less harsh, but Elad you are editing the lead of an English language encyclopedia article. You have to do it with better English. If you cant then suggest an edit on the talk page and let somebody with better command of English grammar make the edit. Do I think that a harsh edit summary merits a sanction? No, especially when it, even if harsh, is true. nableezy - 17:37, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And for the record, I will add to the chorus of praise for SFR for trying to, mostly single-handedly, manage a conflagration that is approaching Chicago in 1871 in size and intensity. And I hope he continues to do what he can, and even better that others join him. nableezy - 19:16, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, gaslighting was in reference to sources like UN Watch, not about editors. nableezy - 20:37, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Isabelle, I have tried to lower the temperature, and I will continue to do so. I will redouble my efforts to not respond to soapboxing with soapboxing. But, besides for an edit summary that I already recognized as harsh, I dont know what I could have done after being warned to avoid a topic ban here. nableezy - 03:54, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

SFR, I’ve responded to most of these diffs already, including the Samer Abu Daqqa AFD, and for the most part I disagree with your characterization of them, but even accepting them I had indeed moderated my tone since your warning, making the escalation to topic ban a day and change later something that seems like I couldn’t avoid. Though your raising the AN thread again seems like it’s the actual trigger. That there being back and forth is a cause for a topic ban. But there is nothing in my three comments in that diff that are a. Uncivil, b. Battlegrounding, or c. Inaccurate or otherwise wrongly stated. People are allowed to disagree with each other here. You’re ignoring the substance of the comments, where one is making clearly specious claims and one (raises hand) is responding to those specious claims. And, again, my comments in that AN thread were agreed to by others and had others change their minds because of them. That isn’t disruptive, that’s constructive. nableezy - 07:57, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ok now I’m just lost here, you’re taking diffs of a response to an RFC prompt of We need a whole bunch more eyes on this article, its framing, and its intervention in other Wikipedia articles on this topic if any of y'all have better blood pressure medicine or deeper knowledge of this topic than I do. It may be fine that the current lede of settler colonialism involves accusations of genocide or that this title is completely differently formatted for every other section link coming off of settler colonialism. I really don't know and I do appreciate that the current editors on this new page have been formatting well and finding sources to build their page. An intro "graph" of exactly 4 data points seems like an excellent example of how lazy and partisan "sources" on this topic can be, however, and I'd be much more comfortable with wider community involvement from both sides plus plenty of neutrals with me questioning if a person who admittedly has no idea what the sources say but is still sure that the article is wrong. You have completely turned the purpose of this place upside down with the claims that these diffs are battlegrounding and not just asking people to abide by our editing policies. If you’re going to post diffs from going on 19 months or something then I really don’t know how I am even supposed to begin to respond. It’s as if throwing a pile of shit against the wall with the hope something sticks is how this is going. People aren’t supposed to edit based on feeling and intuition but on sources, and calling that out isn’t battlegrounding, it’s editing in support of our most core policy. nableezy - 15:37, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, the no carve out for Davidbena's mentorship is what drove me to appeal, so I’m fine with that modification, and I would make that commitment with or without the topic ban. nableezy - 00:06, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

I provided a few diffs to demonstrate the problem was recent and continuing. I have also warned multiple times, [38][39][40], including here at AE [41]. A warning also does not cancel out any prior issues, and I was placing warnings for behavior in real time while reviewing a vast corpus of discussions.

I have been asked by several editors in the area to just read the talk pages, and it will become clear where the problems lie. I have spent an enormous amount of time reading dozens of talk pages with what likely totaled a few hundred thousand words. What I determined is that there is persistent battleground behavior by many editors, and I acted to remove some of the worst actors temporarily, and one flagrantly disruptive one indefinitely. I don't have a large book of diffs because battleground behavior is a pattern, not single diffable. I was also reading many discussions, many of them weeks old, mostly on my phone. Looking up each diff of battleground conduct, incivility, unnecessary escalation, hostility, and extended unonstructive back and forths with the find addition/removal tool, or by trolling through histories of talk pages with thousands of edits was simply not feasible.

There are many examples going back of the disruptive behavior. Much of it, as I explained to Nableezy, would not be worth a sanction, or sometimes even a warning. Taken as a whole it demonstrates disruptive editing in the topic, hostile or dismissive responses towards those with a different POV on events or sources, and frequent veiled or not so veiled commentary on other editors' motives. [42][43][44][45][46] (This last was apologized for, but look at the tone even in a misunderstanding). They also recognize this behavior in others [47]. They have had to deal with a lot of bullshit, yes, but so has everyone in the topic area. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:37, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nableezy, I sanctioned you for a pattern of editing which I believe I explained at your talk page where I said The issue is with the consistent pattern of your editing, rather than any single specific diff. I included the diffs to show some recent behavior, but there have been dozens of instances of your behavior demonstrating a battleground mentality, an inability to keep calm in the topic area, and lashing out at other editors. and I didn't topic ban you for a single edit summary, I topic banned you for a pattern of behavior. A pattern of behavior is more than four diffs, and the pattern goes back for weeks, before and after the numerous warnings I gave. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:37, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And yes, you did apologize for [48], as I noted, but your first response demonstrates how you've been reacting to other editors. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:44, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm already nearly at, or past, 500 words so I'll try to keep this short. I don't believe the four warnings I gave each provided a blanket pardon for any prior misbehavior across the topic. I gave warnings for behavior I saw as it happened, but the topic ban was based on the totality of the discussions I reviewed.

Several editors have provided more diffs, and one has said that Nableezy's behavior convinced me not to edit the most contentious pages in this subject area. That I warned for other disruptive editing does not make the other behavior no longer disruptive. Except for the indef topic ban of Iennes all of the topic bans were based on the same long-term consideration.

If consideration of long-term patterns of editing isn't the place of an admin patrolling a CTOP, that's fine and I'll keep that in mind for the future. However, I see the point of CTOP designation is to allow uninvolved admins to step in to stop disruption that is demonstrably preventing other editors from even taking part. I'm now way over 500 words so I'll leave this to others unless any of the considering admins have have any questions or require clarification. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:17, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I said I was done, but I guess wasn't. Sorry for going over my word limit. Perhaps the evidence will be a little more cohesive in one timeline. This is the two weeks leading up to the topic ban comprised mostly of diffs in this appeal, in the warnings, and in the topic ban notice.

Dec 12 Guess it was the right amount of weight when it pushed the lie hundreds of Hamas militants have surrendered to Israel ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Dec 14 I dont hold hypocritical opposing viewpoints on other accusations that sources attribute however. Thats the difference between us.
Dec 16 Warning
Dec 17 Self reverted. Tell Andres I said hi next time he emails you asking for an edit with a premade edit summary for you to copy.
Dec 17 Warning
Dec 17 Yes that’s why we have articles for individual hostages, for individual shooting attacks by Palestinians, for basically any act of violence by a Palestinian. Widely covered acts by Israel that are credibly called war crimes however is where we draw the line apparently.
Dec 19 It would be Killing of Samer Abu Daqqa as he was killed by an Israeli drone attack and did not die peacefully in his sleep. In a normal world it would be Murder of Samer Abu Daqqa but for some reason we need an Israeli court to convict an Israeli soldier of murder to call it that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Dec 20 ...I understand the emotions that can sometimes make good editors make bad statements. But you can’t just be an ass to people because you disagree with them, or you can but eventually somebody is going to get fed up enough to ask that you be made to stop.
Dec 21 that strikes me as the most baldly untrue assertion I’ve seen made on Wikipedia in years. Apologized for misreading, but clear assumption of bad faith, which had happened before
Dec 22 Yes a reporter being killed by a drone attack is routine, a referral to the international criminal court is routine, accusations of war crimes are routine. Silly me.
Dec 24 That is an absurd claim to make, Scahill was wrong about tunnels that the IDF supposedly discovered after his column lol.
Dec 24 Oh, thanks for that bit of wisdom then.
Dec 24 Warning
Dec 24 1500 word personalized back and forth with Andrevan, specifically warned about at AE on Dec 16. This series wasn't already in evidence, but was part of the impetus for the next warning. The next diff was part of this exchange.
Dec 24 Im sorry, but youre just making things up.
Dec 25 Warning
Dec 25 More arguing with Andrevan about a NOTHERE block that would clearly never happen
Dec 25 the grammar is trash

Again, I did not topic ban for the 28 edits edits after the last warning, I topic banned for an ongoing pattern of behavior that continued after several warnings. I even tried the dude shut up method that had been suggested to me in the past before sanctioning, which was ineffective at preventing more BATTLEGROUND arguing. There are two editors here that have reduced or stopped their participation in the topic area due to this battleground behavior. I'd also like to draw attention to the bolded diff, outlining exactly the reasoning behind the topic ban which they explained to another editor. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 05:32, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Zero0000, I highlighted it because it is the exact situation that led to my placing the topic ban. Nableezy is a good editor making bad statements, and they can't be an ass to people just because they disagree with someone. In this circumstance Nableezy was made to stop. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 06:45, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As I was investigating the conflict brought up by Kire1975, I started looking into the contribution histories of the editors involved at those threads, which led me to IOHANNVSVERVS's contributions, which led me to Talk:Zionism as settler colonialism. I then started reviewing the discussions. These diffs are from May 2022.

It was through reviewing talk pages like this and reviewing recent edits that I came to my conclusion about the long term pattern of battleground editing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:19, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nableezy, I was probably not as clear as I should have been, and I'm not intending to add more evidence. I'm trying to illustrate how I read a lot of your edits that had taken place over a long period of time. I wasn't just reviewing recent edits, and you've made a lot of comments in a lot of discussions in the topic area, so I read a lot of them while reviewing discussions. I brought this up because it just happened again while looking into the complaints against Homerethegreat. I had not seen those particular diffs when considering sanctions against you.

Sluzzelin, The WP:BATTLEGROUND policy says Every user is expected to interact with others civilly, calmly, and in a spirit of cooperation. Do not insult, harass, or intimidate those with whom you have a disagreement. Rather, approach the matter intelligently and engage in polite discussion. If another user behaves in an uncivil, uncooperative, or insulting manner, or even tries to harass or intimidate you, this does not give you an excuse to respond in kind. Address only the factual points brought forward, ignoring the inappropriate comments, or disregard that user entirely. If necessary, point out gently that you think the comments might be considered uncivil, and make it clear that you want to move on and focus on the content issue. If a conflict continues to bother you, take advantage of Wikipedia's dispute resolution process. There are always users willing to mediate and arbitrate disputes between others. and the enforcement procedure at WP:CTOP says Within contentious topics, you must edit carefully and constructively, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and... comply with all applicable policies and guidelines; follow editorial and behavioural best practice. It's not should, it is must. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:07, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reading and taking on board the responses of the administrators below, and in the interest of wrapping this up, I'll propose a compromise. I'll cut the duration of the topic ban to 30 days, with a carve out for Nableezy to continue to assist Davidbena with their topic ban, with an assurance from Nableezy that they will moderate their tone and bring concerns about editor behavior to an uninvolved administrator or AE rather than engaging over behavior on talk pages.

I think that's a fair compromise accounting for the administrator responses. If Nableezy agrees I'll implement the change, otherwise I'll leave it up to the admins responding. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:49, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Coretheapple

I generally edit on popular culture nowadays. I started editing I/P about two weeks ago and found the atmosphere to be poisonous. I commend ScottishFinnishRadish for doing the hard work required to improve civility on that page.

When I began editing 2023 Israel-Hamas War, I made this comment on the talk page concerning an overlong paragraph: Perhaps what is being conveyed here can be described succinctly rather than reeling off what one media outlet after another said on this subject. The paragraph in question is overlong and disproportionate weight.

Nableezy responded [49]. Guess it was the right amount of weight when it pushed the lie hundreds of Hamas militants have surrendered to Israel ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. II was new to the page, had never interacted with this editor before. I had never edited that paragraph before. I had never "pushed the lie" to which he referred. This was not "exasperation." He was questioning my motives.

Nor was it an expression of "exasperation" when he accused me of being a hypocrite. Such personal attacks are no longer prevalent on that talk page entirely due to ScottishFinnishRadish and him alone. Coretheapple (talk) 23:26, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It occurs to me that I have not directly addressed the topic ban. I agree with it. I believe that three months is not excessive and that a permanent Tban would not be unreasonable. The following statement appears on his user page as a userbox.

This user supports the right of all individuals and groups to violently resist military aggression and occupation by other parties, but due to an alleged consensus he is disallowed from naming particular individuals or groups which certain administrators find to be unacceptable.

He also has a section on his user page called "Trip down memory lane," which further speaks to the battlefield behavior noted in the diffs. Coretheapple (talk) 17:28, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Re the points raised by Novem Linguae and SFR, I wanted to clarify one point. If you check my contribs you can see that I have largely gone back to popular culture in the hope that things will cool off a bit, and they have not. The I/P subject area is pretty much hopeless in my view. It is not unusual, for instance, for editors to refer to Israel as the "Zionist entity" in talk page discussions, which is the kind of thing that poisons the atmosphere as well as potentially bringing the project into disrepute if not curbed. SFR's tough enforcement of civility (and he has addressed the "Zionist entity" issue) should be supported and not undermined if WP:NPA is to be more than a rumor in I/P. Coretheapple (talk) 22:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Homerethegreat

Since I begun interacting with Nableezy I've felt a lack of understanding and respect and at times what has felt very clearly as complete lack of civility. Nableezy accused me of tag teaming [[50]] without presenting evidence. I once wrote to Nableezy stating that I thought he/she/they had done a false edit summary and Nableezy responded with what really felt like a series of personal attacks [[51]]. Nableezy said the following:

 "You have, consistently across a range of pages, attempted to skew the leads of articles by adding whatever bullshit you can Google up and stuff it in to the lead without a thought as to weight or how poorly you make the lead read. "

He also said this:

 " your complaint here is as low quality as most of your edits. "

Nableezy's inability to explain without using derogative terms and his negative style alarmed me.

In another edit the user said the following[[52]]:

 "...Both are accused of ongoing war crimes whereas France and those other countries you keep pretending like this compares to is not. Sorry, but no I do not need to accept your chosen framing in which you can fill the lead of Hamas with all sorts of hysteria..."

From this and other edits arouse the feeling of the inability for I and other users that do not think the same as Nableezy to cooperate since Nableezy's communications were negative in their style and tone were derogatory.

I have also seen Nableezy react in a way that can be insulting and also shows behavior that seems unaccepting and seems to show a mentality that does not accept cooperating with users that think differently (in his responses to BilledMammal)[[53]].

 "So you’re saying the UN secretary general said there is no bias? Cool cool. The section you linked to is filled with garbage sources like UN Watch, and you want to pretend like it should be treated as objective fact. Again, gaslighting, the abuser claims to be the victim to make you disbelieve anything said against them. Next you’ll tell me Btselem is antisemitic too."

 "The only people claiming a bias against Israel are highly partisan sources. It is gaslighting, an attempt to shield criticism by claiming to be the victim"

I've also seen Nableezy interact with other users in a way which is at minimum disrespectful.

Overall from very early on I have felt insulted and attacked by Nableezy at times resulting in a personal attack on me as a person. Over time this behavior seems to have worsened. There's no doubt Nableezy is a significant contributor to Wikipedia and has spent extraordinary amounts of time working on the encyclopedia. Perhaps it is really best for a 3 month cooling period so that the user can contribute with freshened mentality and politeness. Homerethegreat (talk) 16:30, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Eladkarmel

I have known Nableezy for several years now. There is no doubt that this is an editor who invested a lot of effort and time in Wikipedia and has good contributions, but I also saw that this is a person who knows how to get stressed and behave aggressively towards other editors. I think his assault on Dovidroth was really the straw that broke the camel's back. I have also seen the attacks on Homerethegreat and BilledMammal and I think this is also very, very problematic behavior and not what I would expect from other editors. I'm sorry that such a long-time editor behaves like this. I hope that a certain period of editing on other topics will help him calm down and also remember that in the end, real life is just as beautiful as Wikipedia. Eladkarmel (talk) 18:44, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kire1975

There is evidence of tag teaming, edit warring, WP:HOSTAGE taking and WP:SEALIONING by Homerethegreat. There are already two discussions about this subject open on the ANI noticeboard here and the NPOV noticeboard here. Kire1975 (talk) 18:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zero0000

Anyone who is not upset by the current war in the Middle East has a heart of stone. It is simply not humanly possible to cover it on wikipedia without a lot of argument, pushing of competing narratives, and occasional incivility. Instead of punishing editors who use a rude word now and then, we should acknowledge editors who honestly strive to maintain a high article standard. Nableezy is one of the leading lights in that respect, in line with his long eminent career here. Concerning his recent behavior, I refer to Levivich's answer with which I concur: between the warning and the TBAN, Nableezy's behavior was exemplary and there was no cause to escalate the warning to a TBAN. Zero^talk 02:19, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ScottishFinnishRadish chose to highlight a Dec 20 exchange by bolding it. Actually, this example shows Nableezy being collegiate. Arminden is an excellent editor and both Nableezy and I have a lot of respect for his work here. I believe that respect is mutual. So when Arminden steps out of line, we don't rush to a noticeboard to get him banned, but instead we rush to his talk page to ask him to cool it. You can see from Nableezy's final "Take care" that his words are intended as friendly advice, tough love if you will. Nableezy and Arminden are not editing opponents except in rare moments. I also thought that Arminden needed strong advice just then, and my own admonition less than an hour later is here. Arminden's response to the advice is here. Zero^talk 06:37, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish: We shouldn't tell our friends to stop being an ass when they are being an ass, on their personal talk pages? I find your opinion incomprehensible. In this example, Nableezy was helping Arminden, not being an ass to him. Zero^talk 08:32, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Arminden

I'm trying to stay out of these "trials by Wiki", even my own, and don't understand the lingo and system. I hope my entry is read, and not just as a reply to Zero: I'm hanging it in here because I fully agree with Zero. Don't know what block you're about to slap on Nableezy, but I don't think it would be productive. I appreciate his civility, especially as I'm considering myself to be someone who, like Nableezy, is trying to be rational & balanced on the I/P conflict (and escape it whenever possible). Still, I end up being more benevolent towards the concept of Israel and more critical of incessant pro-Palestinian Wiki activism than others (w/o any sympathy for Israeli one either), so often not on the same side as Nableezy. I'd much rather have him around than miss him. Read the last bit and toss the rest. Arminden (talk) 22:41, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Nableezy

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Drmies

I don't wish to speak/act like an administrator here, but I do have two cents' worth. First, I understand SFR's verdict, but second, I believe that Nableezy was by no means the worst in these exchanges, and their tone was more of exasperation than of a battleground mentality. Both sides were not totally equal here, and I think the project would benefit from having Nableezy back in the game. It would be very nice if we had more uninvolved editors and admins active in these areas who could speak words of warning before things get out of hand between editors. Drmies (talk) 22:48, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Volunteer Marek

Ah yes. “pattern of editing”. It’s one of those amorphous, ethereal, vague pretexts that are actually an admission of “I don’t really have any real diffs but I need to manufacture a reason here”. Especially when the diffs that are provided are such weak milquetoast as this. Some people see patterns - dragons, turtles, Jesus himself - in the clouds, others just see white fluff. Usually the “white fluff” people are right.

The above applies to not just Nableezy but a few others that caught a sanction here. All of these, with one possible exception, should be rescinded. Volunteer Marek 23:46, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sluzzelin

I wouldn't word it the way Volunteer Marek did, and I don't think ScottishFinnishRadish is seeing Jesus in the clouds ... yet I agree with Volunteer Marek that these topic bans should be rescinded. Everyone's exasperated regarding the war, and it's impossible not to feel exasperated when reading the talk pages of most articles about the war. These are editors, however, who do try very hard to follow reliable sources, policies, and to avoid personalizing their comments or making forum-type contributions. I think en.wp needs to endure the possibility of occasional over-the-top escalations in this heated area, and manage them case by case. I certainly find the duration of the topic bans far too long. In my view, there also appears to be an intention of even-handedness in the making of these bans, and therefore I ask for all of them to be cancelled. Peace. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:19, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see battleground behavior in the old diffs added by ScottishFinnishRadish at 15:19, 30 December 2023 (UTC). As mentioned somewhere above, there is a tone of exasperation, and context allows this exasperation to become relatable (to me), but battleground behavior? ---Sluzzelin talk 15:49, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, ScottishFinnishRadish, for your reply. I cannot fault your logic (nor do I ever find digs at other editors helpful, for the record). Having neglected to read policy recently (or closely), I guess I associate(d) "battleground behaviour" with where and how you enter a discussion too, which, I guess, implies attitude and intent, which, in turn, is not necessarily part of "behavior". I still don't think Nableezy's behavior warrants this topic ban, however, and this also has to do with having seen him reach out to editors he's in disagreement with, trying to find workable solutions, and also expressing empathy. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:58, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Objective3000

AMPOL is a picnic on a perfect, spring day compared to A-I. Nableezy has 52,000 edits, many in CTOP areas, without a block in a dozen years. It’s difficult to see a recurring pattern here. The constant influx of POV editors, many SPA, in the most C of CTOPs is going to result in moments of exasperation. From a purely technical POV, I don’t think SFR was out of line and I am delighted that some admins spend some time where angels fear to tread. But Nableezy is not the cause of the problems in A-I and his presence is valuable in keeping these articles within the boundaries of Wikipedia guidelines. This will always ruffle feathers as many editors in such topics put their personal beliefs over our guidelines. Nableezy’s responses here may sound defensive and defensive sounding appeals don’t go over well on this page. But I would sound defensive in this case also. In my mind, the best result is quick termination of the sanction. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:02, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Besides the religious aspect, the likely difference between discussions in AMPOL and A-I is that people are dying on a daily basis, right now. Possibly hourly if you count deaths from injuries, illness, and starvation. Far higher rate than the barbaric war in Ukraine. In that atmosphere of immediacy, statements that may normally seem appropriate may appear as insensitive and draw intemperate responses. This is more likely to happen to someone who makes a large numbers of edits, some repetitive, like Homerethegreat’s 408 mainspace and 436 talk page edits related to this subject. To some extent we will have to live with this if we are to support current events articles. Perhaps it would be better if we handed out more 48 hour TBans and fewer 90 day TBans. Of course the number 48 could grow. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:22, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mistamystery: what does this have to do with Nableezy? Homerethegreat and you have edited the same 38 pages in the last 49 days related to Israel, largely being in agreement. Nableezy also edited 30 of those pages. I presume that's the perceived connection and the suggestion of tag teaming. Just what I've noticed. I have no opinion on any possible wrongdoing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:44, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mistamystery: Homerethegreat may be editing what he wishes, but taking a quick look myself just now at his edit history, it doesn't appear I have edited (short of a single vandalism revert) a single page this he has touched in a month, if not longer. Unless I'm mistaken, see:[54]. Again, I make no claim of wrongdoing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:25, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mistamystery:

I made no profoundly misleading assertion and highly distorted take.
I made no accusation of tag teaming. My brief addition was simply to answer the questions on what this has to do with Nableezy and why tag teaming was presumed.
The retaliatory Editor Interaction Analyser report you posted goes back years over numerous subjects. I have edited 1,549 pages and Nableezy 6,433 pages. It is hardly surprising that 93 are in common. Even the three minute gap included was three years ago and we were both removing separate vandalism edits.
Removing text in an edit after it has received a response, pertinent to the response, is not kosher. One can strike text or add a follow up.
Your edits must remain in your own section on this page.
Before someone at a higher paygrade than I tells you; you might want to tone it down here and WP:AGF. And let us stop taking up admin time. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:32, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by My very best wishes

Nableezy is a reasonable contributor capable of admitting their mistakes, even though my interactions with him were unpleasant [55]. I should admit such interactions convinced me not to edit the most contentious pages in this subject area, such as 2023 Israel–Hamas war. My very best wishes (talk) 17:10, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is Nableezy a "net positive" in this subject area? I would say "yes", even though he is strongly "pro-Palestine". Does he always interact with others in polite and collegial matter? No, but everyone who wants to edit in this subject area should develop a very thick skin. My very best wishes (talk) 23:19, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking directly on the action by ScottishFinnishRadish... Nableezy had previous sanctions, specifically in this subject area, and he was bringing many other contributors to WP:AE very recently. Therefore, I believe that no any warnings was required in this case, and whatever Nableezy did before the warning does count (I think the argument by Levivich below was unconvincing). Based on that, issuing the sanction by ScottishFinnishRadish was within his/her discretion and not unreasonable. My very best wishes (talk) 15:16, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking on the latest diffs brought by ScottishFinnishRadish, they are typical examples of someone commenting on other contributors, rather than on content, at the article talk page. Even if an RfC was not properly framed (this is happening very often), one should simply ignore it or explain how it should be properly framed. My very best wishes (talk) 16:06, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking on the content, I think our page 2023 Israel–Hamas war could be improved. Consider the lead. The lead does not say in the first paragraph about the atrocities by Hamas that served as the casus belli for the war; it frames this as merely a "surprise attack". It does not say in the first paragraph the stated goals by Israel for the war (they appear only in the end of 3rd paragraph), but instead describes the Israel actions as a "retaliation". I tried to fix some of such issues, but decided not to edit this page after having a couple of unpleasant discussions with Nableezy [56], [57]. My very best wishes (talk) 17:00, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Levivich

I read all 28, and 27 of them are 100% unproblematic in my view. The only one that is a little bit problematic is this edit summary, which in full is: there is an ongoing rfc about this, and youre putting contested claims in the narrative voice and the grammar is trash. Arguably, "grammar is trash" is not as nice as we want people to be. I'd suggest euphemisms, such as poor instead of trash, e.g.: poor grammar, poor edits, those poor editors, Levivich is a poor person.

The TBAN notification (linked above) cited three post-warning edits: 22:14, 25 December 2023 (in which Nableezy apologizes for the "grammar is trash" comment Sorry, Ill try to be less harsh ...), 22:18, 25 December 2023, and 22:24, December 25, 2023; I don't see a problem with any of these three edits, and one of them shows Nableezy rectifying the only one edit out of the 28 that I think is not 100% unproblematic.

I do not see any grounds for a TBAN in these 28 post-warning edits. If anything, the edits show that Nableezy heeded the warning; the one time he said something slightly unkind, he later apologized for it. The other 27 edits are Nableezy civilly and productively discussing content and policy issues in this topic area. I would go so far as to say that 27 out of the 28 edits show model behavior. The warning worked, so the TBAN is unnecessary to prevent disruption, and not having Nableezy edit in the topic area will make the topic area worse, not better. The TBAN should be overturned. Levivich (talk) 18:22, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

SFR, FWIW I think you misunderstood the "dude chill" thing: it's either a "dude chill" or it's a warning, but it can't be both by definition. I see "dude chill" comments in your recent list of diffs, and the only warning is the last one (the one that says "this is now a warning," which I read to mean it was your first warning). But now you're characterizing earlier dude chill comments as repeated warnings. Not every expression that someone is doing something you don't like constitutes a "warning." For example, "knock it off" is not a warning, it's a "dude chill." I see a significant lack of diffs after the clear warning (the last one). "Grammar is trash" is just not that bad, it was apologized for, and it's one edit out of 28. One apologized-for comment post-warning is not so disruptive to require a TBAN. It doesn't show the continuation of a pattern, but a change in the pattern. (Really, none of these diffs are that bad, and none involve misrepresenting sources or making stuff up, which is far worse than calling people out for misrepresenting sources or making stuff up.) I am rather shocked that you look at the AN thread and you see a bilateral problem and not a unilateral one. "People arguing" isn't something that needs to be stopped, and it's an unrealistic and impossible expectation. If one person is making stuff up and another person calls them out for it, TBANing them both for arguing is counterproductive. (And that drives away editors, too, y'know...) Levivich (talk) 14:31, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mistamystery (in response to Kire1975)

Sorry - what does this have to do with Nableezy? I see that you yourself initiated one of the discussions you link to above. It appears you are only commenting on this page because @Homerethegreat commented here and you followed his edits - not because of the arbitration action at hand. Please take care not to engage in actions that may be perceived as WP:HOUNDING, WP:CANVASS, and WP:INAPPNOTE.

Unless you have edits to make to your comment that are directly in regard to nableezy's appeal (or any of the other editors involved in the recent topic ban - of which the user you are referring to is not one of them), I respectfully recommend striking through or removing your above comment. Mistamystery (talk) 00:09, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wow @Objective3000. If that's not a profoundly misleading assertion and highly distorted take on edit history. Homerethegreat may be editing what he wishes, but taking a quick look myself just now at his edit history, it doesn't remotely appear that I have touched any pages this user has been editing in any capacity or tempo that would give this impression - during the period of time you mention, if not longer. It's beyond a reach to imply otherwise. (and even a cursory review of the distance of time between edits using the edit comparison tool you cite also proves my point)

We're all in the same community working on the same pages and topics. I run into nableezy all the time (or more specifically, he more often runs into me). I do not take kindly to such an assertion (as much as you would like to say you "have no opinion", the sheer posting of such the above posits otherwise).

I stand firmly on my comment below. I simply came here to check in on the status of the Nableezy conversation, only to find an outside user clearly canvassing regarding accusations related to an uninvolved editor being made on two separate noticeboards, initiated by two separate users who were egging each other on on one of the boards - showing (what is likely) clear evidence of tagteaming against the user. So I called it out, plain and simple. Mistamystery (talk) 19:07, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have revised my reply below to better reflect a more thorough review of edit histories.

Invoking this tool does not prove any effective point except my own. To use the word "tag teaming" in a post that includes me, when citing a tool that shows clearly that more than 50% of edit crossover had at least a day's gap, with 17 of the edits cited happening more than a *week* apart reveals nothing more than general (and usual) activity by engaged users in a dynamic topic area filled with similar users doing just the same. This makes no further point than my initial reply - this is very much overreach. Mistamystery (talk) 19:52, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For comparison: link

I not only make no claim of wrongdoing, I never in a million years would take edit comparisons such as these and even remotely invoke language so as to imply there is malfeasance or collusion at hand (despite the fact that, in this case, there are actually *more* instances of follow-up edits in less than a day's time than the initial link provided)

Let's please keep our heads above the water and get back to the task at hand. Mistamystery (talk) 20:07, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Objective3000 just making sure - is it clear that initial tag-teaming accusation I was referring to was an off page matter, that a user was dragging (inappropriately, I believed) onto this page?

For clarity, I'm referring to activity on these two pages being undertaken by two separate editors Here, and here.

It has nothing to do with this page at all, or nableezy, or any prior tag-teaming accusation involving any of the editors currently under sanction of discussion. Unless it was unintentional (or out of confusion as to what I was referring to) to use the word tag teaming and then mention my own edit history when I was not the target of any tag teaming accusations was neither kind nor appropriate. Mistamystery (talk) 20:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Crampcomes

Sanctioning Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for 90 days for such trivial matters at a time when there's an ongoing Israel-Hamas war will do more damage to Wikipedia than good. Nableezy has been contributing to Israel-Hamas related articles in Wikipedia for years and is therefore one of the more knowledgeable editors with regard to Israel-Hamas related articles in Wikipedia, and he's also well-versed with regard to Wikipedia rules and policies. 2023 Israel–Hamas war is an ongoing war and as such the article is evolving very fast. There are a bunch of pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli editors trying to add content that do not comply with Wikipedia rules. As evident from the Talk:2023 Israel–Hamas war, Nableezy has been one of the few editors who has been trying hard to keep the article balanced, neutral as well as in compliance with the Wikipedia policies. His absence from the currently fast-evolving 2023 Israel–Hamas war article and other related articles for 90 days will do way more damage to Wikipedia than good. Thank you and best regards.Crampcomes (talk) 16:13, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal by Nableezy

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

This sanction is unfortunate - because in general I feel like Nableezy is one of the editors in the area to most often to bring good sources to the table and make policy based arguments. But there are also a lot of hostile comments lately, so I understand why SFR imposed the topic ban. I'm open to shortening the topic ban or lifting it, but I'm concerned by the lack of recognition of Nableezy of any problems in their comments and editing (and e.g. even doubling down on the calling an edit "trash" comment). I think if Nableezy can take HJ Mitchell's advice in this comment that'd be good. Galobtter (talk) 17:27, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't see why it's ever necessary to call someone's work "trash". Even if the edit was made in bad faith there are still better ways of phrasing criticism. That said, Nableezy has attempted to heal the hurt feelings, which should be taken into account here. I agree with the above comments that Nableezy is one of the more reasonable editors in this topic area, and removing them entirely would have a negative effect on content. But we do need Nableezy, and all the other good-faith editors, to do their part to lower the temperature whenever possible. It is also clear that we need more uninvolved editors and admins in this topic area. SFR has been doing incredible work, often alone, and I admire their patience and fortitude. I can certainly understand why they issued this sanction, but I would also like to see if repealed. – bradv 18:34, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
While I might not have issued the exact lengths of this TB, I am not going to second guess the admin who is striving to enforce some semblance of proper behavior. I do understand that passions are running high in the topic area and I understand why, but that doesn't mean that we should let things get worse in the editing area. Thank you to SFR for being willing to step in and I don't see a need to overturn the TB. Ealdgyth (talk) 19:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I see multiple diffs of an abrasive tone being used by this editor. It is not very collegial to communicate using words such as "trash", "garbage", "gaslighting", and "bullshit". This kind of tone is probably intended to drive "bad" editors away, but probably also drives good editors away, and is probably the kind of thing SFR is trying to fix in this topic area. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:29, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Re: "gaslighting". Sure, it was about a source rather than an editor, but it may still be a good idea to avoid it. Certain words raise the temperature. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:07, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Volunteer Marek: Please be mindful that decorum is one of the expectations in pages such as AE. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 01:04, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To comment on the issue at hand, I agree with others who said above that Nableezy is a net positive to the project and to the contentious topic areas they edit. This does not give them carte blanche to be belligerent towards other editors, raising the temperature of an already hot topic and creating an unwelcoming ambient for new editors. While I think the tban was justified, I wouldn't mind reducing its length if Nableezy can show they understand their behavior was not up to the standards we expect from editors in contentious topics. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 02:22, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Isabelle Belato, I think you are missing a "not". – bradv 03:14, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, it's been fixed. Not by me, though, which left me very confused for a while. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 14:06, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mistamystery and Objective3000: Unless you two can show the importance of Homerethegreat to this discussion, I'll ask that you stop replying to each other as completely off-topic. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 21:03, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per Levivich's evidence, I'm unconvinced this is a suitable TBAN. I completely understand why SFR did it, and I think the rest of their actions are correct, but not this one. Black Kite (talk) 23:26, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Black Kite. Per Nableezy's explanations and Levivich's analysis I think this one at least can be lifted. The topic bans were issued together but each needs to stand on their own merits. The others have a stronger diff basis and should stay. And regardless of this appeal outcome, thanks to SFR for wading in help preserve the editing environment in this very difficult topic area. -- Euryalus (talk) 23:44, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree with Black Kite. I had been waiting to see if anyone disputed Levivich's evidence but, as expected, that has not happened. Likewise, thanks to SFR and I can see why both sides got a tban but 90 days for Nableezy is not needed given the evidence. Johnuniq (talk) 03:05, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Iennes

Iennes' appeal is declined. Iennes, I would recommend that you spend 3–6 months familiarizing yourself with other parts of Wikipedia, until you are able to come back and explain what went wrong here and why we can be confident that you will be able to edit constructively in the topic area. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|she) 01:05, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Appealing user: Iennes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Iennes (talk) 06:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: Indefinite Topic Ban from ARBPIA

Administrator imposing the sanction: ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: Notified

Statement by Iennes

No "final warning" message had been sent to me before the call. On December 25, after realizing that the number of Palestinian casualties was obsolete (18,600 instead of 20,000) in the lead of an article, I tried to correct it and soon realized it was impossible to edit in the actual article as some people had decided to create a template [58] to control that information and let it on December 20. So I wrote this message on the talk page to let them know that they not only abused of their editing skill but it was made on purpose to delay any update.[59]. The template was only updated on December 26, this very slow reaction in editing the right number of casualties is not at the level of wiki.[60] I was about to tone down the message the day after but the sanction had already arrived.

One week before on December 14, I wrote messages on this article talk page [61] and then got messages from SFR on my talk page.[62] The reply I had written to SFR on my talk page [63] had been instantly erased a few minutes right after,[64] so it was supposed to not be read anymore and yet SFR dug it the day after [65], to use it in the sanction report. The right to oblivion for a personal message on a personal page exists. it is unfair and unreceivable to mention his reply to this as soon withdrawn message in his present sanction, this is a convenient help to reach the three mistakes.

Directly giving an endless ban sanction is inappropriate, it has to be graduated. I am engaging myself here to comment on content and only on content from now on, and not write comments on users in any case anymore. I didn't disorganize wiki, I edited / added content with good quality sources in those articles.[66] [67]. So I would like to see this sanction reduced.

note: wp:Good faith I only learnt that it was due to a template the day after when someone explained it on the talk page of the article.[68] Iennes (talk) 06:50, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Either someone is entirely banned of wiki for a certain time, either they are not; or why they are just not allowed to add any comment on a talk page. A refusal of editing (when there was no problem when editing on those articles) goes against freedom of speech. Iennes (talk) 07:30, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some say wp:notnews ? The fact is that in the present time many people have chosen to learn about this war via wiki, in particular students who do not wish to read and hear talking points from press agents. they want to read all sensibilities, they read less the media with a bias. Death figures are an issue in this war because both sides have been accused of downplaying them. The figure of 20,000 victims reached at Christmas is a figure which has a highly symbolic significance in the collective unconscious. Other users before me also wrote on December 24 that they didn't understand why we couldn't modify the intro from the article, and they couldn't find the way to achieve this either [69]. Iennes (talk) 09:15, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Isabelle Belato, said Competence is required whereas someone sent me last month The Auckland Museum Wiki-Award for creating an article with the comment Wonderful work!.[70] I didn't write that "readers don't want to read the news", that is distorting my words and twisting my thought, I wrote that the students, "they read less the media with a bias" and want to read all sensibilities and different views, which is what wiki is about, wp:neutral point of view. Neutrality is what I did in all the edits at these articles, these edits were certainly not incompetent but obviously she didn't check out the "neutral point of view" edits I did when enriching the content of those articles. Isabelle Belato you can't send the Competence is required stamp whereas I didn't deteriorate the content of wiki. We are not here to receive a harsh tag. Iennes (talk) 17:10, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

bradv, this comment was an inappropriate over the top message. the sanction must be just for it, the rest of the messages on talk pages were not written that way in that tone. I invite you to also check out the edits I did in the articles and the edit summaries, this proves that I can handle editing there and having a second chance. and I did engage here to only comment about content at the talk pages articles. Iennes (talk) 17:23, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Iennes

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Philipnelson99

I agree with Galobtter. Throwing around accusations over something like this doesn't really appear good for you since the sanction was based on WP:BATTLEGROUND. Also since when is making a template a tactic to delay an update to an article? and even so, Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. To say a single out of date figure is "not up to the level of wiki" makes no sense to me and to accuse the template creators of deliberately trying to prevent you from making an edit makes me believe the sanction imposed by SFR was warranted especially after browsing through your recent contribution history. Philipnelson99 (talk) 07:00, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal by Iennes

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

You know you could've just edited the template at Template:2023 Israel–Hamas war casualties instead of accusing people of censorship? Doubling down on your WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality in your appeal isn't helping your case. Looking at your overall the editing in the area the number of battlegroundy accusations is enough to make me think this tban is warranted. Galobtter (talk) 06:42, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
From reading the comments left by Iennes in this appeal alone, I think the topic ban was well-justified. Jumping straight to calling editors "pro israeli" and saying they highjacked the article and are trying to censor it shows a lack of good faith, competence on how templates work and, of course, battleground behavior. This is all compounded by further comments they make here, citing the ban infringes on their freedom of speech and the need to keep the article up to date because readers don't want to read the news. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 14:32, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Complaining about free speech and censorship, while posting comments calling others fxxkng wxxkers axxhxles suggests to me you have neither the experience nor the temperament necessary to edit this highly-contentious topic area. – bradv 16:52, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would decline the appeal. Frustration is very understandable but contributors need much more composure than shown in the diffs at User talk:Iennes#Notice that you are now subject to an arbitration enforcement sanction, particularly after a warning. An appeal after six months might succeed if there were an acknowledgment of the problem. Johnuniq (talk) 03:14, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This editor doesn't yet understand the conduct policies surrounding this incredibly contentious topic, or even conduct policies in general, which isn't surprising since they haven't actually edited much/regularly until a couple of months ago. Iennes, editing in this topic area is not a great idea if you don't understand that there's no requirement for a "final warning", if you don't understand that having a template in place has zero relation to censorship, if you think it's a good idea to argue right here at AE that the template "was made on purpose to delay any update", if you don't understand that indefinite doesn't mean "endless". This is a topic area that has many, many experienced editors with diverse points of view who are working actively, so inexperienced editors aren't really needed, especially if they aren't getting themselves up to speed on all these behavioral policies. Go work somewhere less contentious and learn what you need to know to be able to edit in this kind of area, come back with more experience after a period of productive non-problematic editing, and appeal again. Valereee (talk) 22:11, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Toa Nidhiki05

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Toa Nidhiki05 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Toa Nidhiki05 16:31, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: Indefinite topic ban from post-1992 American politics, imposed at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive312#Toa Nidhiki05, logged at Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement log/2022#American politics 2

Administrator imposing the sanction: Guerillero (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: Diff

Statement by Toa Nidhiki05

This is my second appeal of this sanction; the last was over six months ago. Like I said then, I believe my behavior that led to the sanction was embarrassing and not befitting of what productive behavior in the topic area looks like. We can all agree, I think, that AP2 doesn't need that sort of behavior, and while I don't believe I was the only one at fault in the dispute, my behavior is the only thing that I can control. Since the topic ban a year ago, I've avoided disruptive behavior and have focused on productive editing, including routine cleanup of articles but also full-scale rewrites of articles like NFL Europe and Plastic Love. I've also worked productively on the BLP Huey Long, where I productively helped work on resolving conflicts and reaching consensus. This would be the approach I would take going forward in the AP2 area if this topic ban were to be lifted.

I do feel like I have made valuable contributions in this area and the encyclopedia as a whole, and I'd love to be able to contribute productively to AP2 in the future. Like I've said previously - I would be more than open to alternatives that allow me to engage productively in this area. If a full lifting of the sanction isn't something you're willing to consider, I'd be more than open to something like a 1RR restriction that would allow me to productively contribute again. Toa Nidhiki05 16:31, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Guerillero

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Toa Nidhiki05

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by GoodDay

An editor deserves a chance to prove themselves. Toa' t-ban shouldn't continue if they've promised to not be disruptive in future in that area & hasn't been disruptive in other areas. We must ask ourselves, at what point does a preventative measure morph into a punitive measure. GoodDay (talk) 16:40, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal by Toa Nidhiki05

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

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