Help talk:IPA/Sicilian

[r]

@Kbb2: don’t you think we should still mark [r] as long, however superfluous it may be, for consistency with the other consonants? イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 12:21, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: You don't need to edit war with me, I was just about to reply.

Whether we use the length mark or not is irrelevant - note that we're already being inconsistent with other consonants, as ⟨r⟩ and ⟨ɾ⟩ are different IPA symbols. I see no reason to insist on using the length mark which is simply superfluous ([ɾ] can only ever denote single contact of the tip of the tongue with the alveolar ridge). Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 13:03, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

@Kbb2: that’s exactly the reason why I did not want to have another symbol in place of [ɾː] (which, as far as I can tell, is another possible realization of geminated ⟨r⟩). イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 13:07, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: But that's the problem: [ɾ] is a shortened single [d], and so [ɾː] isn't a valid transcription of an alveolar trill. It's the same as [dː].

The way I see it, ⟨r⟩ is the best choice. But what about the fricative realizations of the trill? I think we should either list them in the guide or remove the note. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 13:10, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

1. The fact is [ɾ] can be both things, or neither, at the same time.

2. Considering there is wide variation and that the range of symbols we use is conventional, I think it is perfectly fine if we have a note that explains realizations in further detail, without having to recur to all of those symbols in our transcriptions. Same goes for preconsonantal ⟨s⟩. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 13:20, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: I was speaking about sounds, not Sicilian pronunciation. In IPA, [ɾ] is a very short alveolar [d].

I think that symbols such as ⟨ɕ, ʑ, ɹ̝, ɹ̝̊, ɹ̝ː⟩ do not belong here unless we can justify their presence. Remember that this is a mere IPA guide, not Sicilian phonology (which you can create if you want). Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 13:23, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

@Kbb2: I really had no idea in the IPA [ɾː] was an alternative transcription of [dː], in which case I understand the changes. Regarding the phonetic variants, I still think we should keep them here as long as there isn’t a dedicated article. They are of no harm and can be helpful to some readers. I’ll see if I can find some place at Sicilian orthography, though I don’t think it is a proper place where to list them all. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 13:42, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: I don't think that we should wait with the removal of these symbols until the creation of a dedicated article on Sicilian phonology. You can create it yourself if you want (no pressure, just saying), but the point is that this guide is aimed mostly at laymen, most of which will not find them helpful. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 14:01, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

@Kbb2: maybe we can have them fit Sicilian language, in the phonology section. Still, if they are in a side note, I don’t see why we should remove them straight away. I mean, one can just rely to the English approximation and ignore it. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 14:07, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: If laymen should ignore them then why should we list them here in the first place? Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 14:28, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

@Kbb2: I never said they should, I meant they could if they wanted to. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 14:30, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: I still don't think that "leaving these won't hurt anybody" is a good enough argument to preserve them. These aren't symbols you're gonna encounter in transcriptions of many languages (especially the last three) and so we need a reason to keep them, rather than a reason to remove them. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 15:04, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes, the length mark should be omitted. When used alongside ⟨ɾ⟩ in IPA transcriptions of any given language, ⟨r⟩ by definition has to denote an alveolar trill (unless it's dental - but then ⟨ɾ⟩ can also stand for a dental consonant in IPA). Not a tap/flap. Sol505000 (talk) 22:41, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: What part of "⟨r⟩ always stands for a trill when used alongside ⟨ɾ⟩" is not clear? Sol505000 (talk) 15:59, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

@Sol505000: the fact that it is more consistent with a convention (since that is what IPA is) to keep it double when most other consonants of Sicilian either contrast long and short or are always long. We don’t need to mark the [r] long, but it makes more sense to do so when [dʒ], [ʃ], [ɖ] … are. Why are we not bringing up that ⟨ɖ⟩ “always stands for a retroflex” and we’d better transcribe it without the length mark because the symbol’s appearance is enough for it to be distinguished from ⟨d⟩ (which we hadn’t)? And no, the place of articulation bears little meaning here considering this is intended for laymen and that the matter of contention is transcription rather than actual pronunciation. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 16:30, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: That's not the same. The symbol ⟨r⟩ already denotes a long/geminated consonant when used alongside ⟨ɾ⟩. In the case of the latter, the tip of the tongue makes one contact with the alveolar ridge (that's precisely what the terms "tap" and "flap" mean). In the case of the former, there are multiple contacts (exactly what "trill" means). We can switch to ⟨rː r⟩ if it's really better (but then the flapped ⟨d⟩ would also have to be written with ⟨r⟩) but the length mark looks plain wrong otherwise - as if those responsible for that choice of symbols had little understanding what the terms "tap/flap" and "trill" stand for. So no, it makes zero sense to mark length here when length is inherent in ⟨r⟩, as in transcriptions of Spanish. It's as nonsensical as writing the closest allophone of /i/ in Russian with ⟨i̝⟩ (when, in reality, no vowel can be closer than cardinal [i] without turning into an approximant or a fricative). Sol505000 (talk) 16:49, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

@Sol505000: […] the matter of contention is transcription rather than actual pronunciation. – I specified this but apparently I failed to get the point across. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 18:18, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: To me, the length mark suggests an extra length in comparison with alveolar trills found in other languages (I mean whenever they're consistently trilled and not reduced to a tap). All the more reason why a plain ⟨r⟩ should be used. Sol505000 (talk) 18:29, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

@Sol505000: and again, I insist it makes more sense to make a comparison with other consonants in the same language here rather than with the trills found in other languages. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 18:48, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: This shows you either have no idea that the symbol ⟨r⟩ is explicitly defined as an alveolar trill by the International Phonetic Association (in their Handbook) or how trills and taps/flaps differ from each other. A trilled (=multiple contacts) [r] is the canonical value of the symbol ⟨r⟩. How on earth can ⟨r⟩ stand for anything other than a trill (a "geminated R", if you wanna call it that way) if we also use ⟨ɾ⟩ in our transcriptions?! Sol505000 (talk) 18:57, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

What am I supposed to reply? That I obviously know that or do I have to repeat myself since you didn’t get my point the slightest? 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 19:05, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: But you're clearly not getting that a bare ⟨r⟩ is by definition long when used alongside ⟨ɾ⟩ in any given transcription. You're insisting on a visual consistency with other symbols, whereas I insist on using IPA the way it is normally used. Sol505000 (talk) 19:26, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

The open central vowel

IMO it makes no sense to list it twice. If it were that important to distinguish stressed [a] from unstressed [a] (with /a/ being the underlying phoneme in both cases, of course), the latter would be transcribed with ⟨ɐ⟩. Otherwise let's just list it as a single vowel. Sol505000 (talk) 22:41, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

It was listed for consistency with [ɪ] and [ʊ] being only unstressed. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 12:31, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

[a] is not unstressed-only, as evidenced by this very guide. If the unstressed allophone is really different, maybe we should write it ⟨ɐ⟩ (if that is its actual phonetic value), as in Galician. Sol505000 (talk) 12:38, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

You had moved the vowel and changed the headers, that’s what I was referring to. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 13:08, 13 November 2021 (UTC)