Talk:Jules Jammal

Dubious

This page seems extremely dubious. I can't find any references to a "French Battleship" Joan d'Arc that was sunk during suez in my books, especially not in a spectacular suicide bombing. Several of the references claims it was a liner, which does not make much sense either. All references are to various Arab nationalist webpages, which makes me believe this is just a fantasy figure. P.S. (talk) 15:12, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

This article should not be deleted. We definitely need more verification, but until then we could tag the article for being dubious instead of deleting it. I don't know if we could just dismiss Jammal's story and I doubt someone like Sami Moubayed would lie about this guy's existence or his participation in the 1956 War. Perhaps the actual incident (if it happened) was exaggerated, but that's no cause for deletion. I'm opting to remove the tag. --Al Ameer son (talk) 16:44, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

A more careful look at the references shows them to be very sloppy. For example, the reference to gulf news is about Jamal Abdul Nasser, _NOT_ any Jules Jammal. Actually, none of the English references except for those to Syrianhistory mentions any Jules Jammal. I strongly believe this whole article to be a hoax and candidate for deletion. If the suicide bombing is exaggerated it should be deleted on the grounds of not being noteworthy, unless he actually did something worth mentioning. P.S. (talk) 17:11, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually, Jules Jammal is mentioned in six passages towards the end of the Gulf News article. Also, Syrian History.com doesn't have a reputation for lying. Most of the sources are indeed sloppy and I couldn't find anything in Google books myself, but we have enough sources to keep this article. It needs a lot of work and more verification but I still oppose its deletion. If it turns out it is a hoax, that's a different story. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:21, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I have flagged this issue in the article and added a title to this section as a target for the article tag.

Take a look at French cruiser Jeanne d'Arc (1930). That ship was active from 1931 until decommissioned in 1964. I doubt the French navy would have two ships of the same name active at the same time. The French article on the Suez Crisis doesn't mention the ship or the huge loss of life (in fact the French lost only 10 in the whole crisis). A Google search reveals very little that is not linked back to this article. Astronaut (talk) 12:52, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Interestingly, one of the sources that was deleted from the article as being unreliable, this source, suggests when translated that the ship involved might have been the French battleship Jean Bart (1940) (ie. sounds a bit like "Jeanne D'Arc" to some ears). Now that ship did serve in Suez, but "engaged in no ship-to-ship combat... was put into reserve in 1957, and then she was decommissioned in 1961." Astronaut (talk) 14:13, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

This Flickr page also refers to the Jean Bart. - David Biddulph (talk) 16:03, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I see that this was also on the Suez crisis page from this October 2011 edit to this December 2011 edit; see Talk:Suez Crisis#Removed section.

I see that some sources (e.g., [1] [2]) assert that he crashed his ship into a French Liner (not Battleship) named Jeanne D’Arc.

Some further googling led me to this article on mideastviews.com, which mentions this. I also found a mention in Kennett Love (1969). Suez--the twice-fought war: a history. McGraw-Hill. pp. 617., but the book is not previewable online and I have no access to paper sources.

Perhaps this article can be reworked to say that (1) some sources credit him with sinking a battleship named Jeanne D’Arc, that no battleship of that name was commissioned in the French Navy at the time (a reliable source supporting that negative assertion ought to exist) and that (2) some sources (e.g. [3], ) assert that the ship he crashed into was the French Battleship Jean Bart (which ship did take part in the action at Suez, was not sunk in that action, and was decommissioned in 1961). Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 21:30, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Reverted an edit by User:Jules Jammal

I've reverted this edit by User:Jules Jammal. It is the initial contribution by this userid and currently the only one. The edit summary says, "this edit is done by my a living relative to the mentioned person, if you think this is a fiction person you should ask before say so on a website that have a creditability", arguing a position based on original research. The edit is otherwise unsupported. I ask that the reverted editor read WP:OR, WP:IRS, WP:DUE, and WP:TRUTH. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 04:24, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the response, it is hurtful, and extremely disrespectful for me and for my family, to describe my uncle as a possible fictitious person. before using that term one should look into the evidence, it is extremely easy for me to provide with his birth certificate if someone had asked me for, before using harmful words like "fictitious person"

the term suicide bomber if you look into the definition of the term and I will reference her Cambridge dictionary online is :a person who has a bomb hidden on their body and who kills themselves in the attempt to kill others.. this term is not used to describe military personnel in the time of there service during war.

the Syrian Mufti using this term incorrectly, does not make it right, in addition this is a bibliography page about Jules Jammal, not a political view page. I would like to point I a did not delete what materials was used with documented evidence by other contributor to the page, due to respect of evidence provided.

I would like to mention that I am currently in contact with the Egyptian embassy, to collect their document about the case, till then, I would like the edit to reflect this previous thoughts, until clear evidence is presented

thanks again.Jules Jammal (talk) 13:14, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Hello, Jules Jammal. I've reverted you again. Wtmitchell is right. According to the rules of Wikipedia, we must not base our articles on personal knowledge or private documents, but only on published reliable sources. Please read our rules about this at WP:V. I've attempted to modify the article to avoid the term "fictitious person".  Sandstein  14:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you again for your response: You are referring to SyrianHistory.com as a source for the following phrase, "Jammal activated a suicide bomb when he rammed his boat into a French ship, destroying it and dying in the process" I would like to direct you to the same source, and if you need help in translation to English I would be more than happy to do so for you, but I prefer you use a third party so that there will be no bias. The exact translation, and again sir, please use a third party for translation. "Jules Jammal was born (1932-1956) in the city of Latakia where he received an education in the basic sciences and completed secondary school in 1952. He joined the Navy in September 1953 and was sent on a military expedition to Egypt to complete his training at the Naval War College in Alexandria. He graduated with the rank of lieutenant sailor in May 1956. On 29 October 1956 the tripartite aggression began against Egypt, and a command was given to the Egyptian Navy to defend against the marine tripartite of France, England, and Israel who were all attacking Egypt. Syrian officers were excluded from participation in these processes in order to preserve them. However, Jules Jammal provided a written request to allow him to participate in the war, which was first refused but then was approved as he repeatedly asked to be allowed to help in defending Egypt. He was assigned to one of a set of three motor torpedo boats commissioned to intercept enemy warships in the waters of Lake Brolos north of the Delta. His team managed to deliver a devastating injury to the French Joan of Arc, but enemy aircrafts attacked his boat and flooded three boats, killing most of the sailors including First Lieutenant Jules Jammal on the fourth of November in 1965."

All I read in this report/reference which has been used and it seems to be valid as per your standards are the following: -Evidently, Jules Jammal was a real person. -Clearly , the reference was incorrectly used to refer to him performing a suicidal attack. This report describes three Torpedo boat that were able to score a devastating injury on a French ship(of note: there is no mention of the ship being sunk) and those boats in return were destroyed by enemy aircraft. How did the author come to the conclusion a suicide bombing was involved??? - Therefore, I urge you to be objective and delete the phrase "suicidal bombing attack", which is not even mentioned once in the above report. - Again, I am not sure why the contributor/author refer to the Mufti speech in this bibliography. I would like you to explain to me why you insist on using this paragraph again and again. I cannot see the relation: He simply died while defending his land from invaders. The concept of attacking other innocent people in their homes and lands will never be part of his or our legacy as a Syrian Christian. Furthermore, the reference to Jules Jammal in the video showing the speech of the Grand Mufti has been wrongly interpreted and reported in this Wikipedia article. I reviewed the video and there is no speech present that claims that Jules Jammal was a suicide bomber. Therefore, the statement made in the Wikipedia article "He cited Jammal as an example of a non-Muslim Syrian who carried out a suicide bomb martyrdom attack on the west" is false. I find it most bothersome that Jules Jammal is associated with suicidal attacks/bombings where in fact there is no concrete proof of this. As the editor of this article, it is your responsibility to search into the sources that this author used in creating this phrase.

Lastly, I tried to open reference 3 that you mentioned in this article. It is not opening, and I would urge you to use a working reference so other readers can evaluate the accuracy of a translation. Jules Jammal (talk) 02:08, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

I looked at the links in the reference section of the article and found one which didn't work butt was fixable; this one. I've fixed that one. Two others didn't work because they apparently currently have redirect loops: tthis one and this one. I've marked both of those with {{dead link}} tags. Those currently nonworking links are both on the http://www.syrianhistory.com website.

I also prettified and translated (using an online translator) arabic language link titles (including, I think, some added by you).

I have not looked at the impact of the changes you made in this recent edit. I may come back and take a look at that (or I may not -- I'm no expert on this, I don't understand Arabic, and I'm pretty busy with other stuff). Whether or not I come back, some other editor(s) (hopefully, editors more expert in the areas where I am deficient here) may take a look at it. I suggest that this be handled going forward in accordance with the method of reaching WP:consensus outlined in WP:BRD. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 08:41, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

References

Edits by User:Jules Jammal

Good day to you

I have couple of points I am trying to make here. 1- Referring to the correction of me using Jules Jammal "was or is" , point that he was a person who lived and died, nothing more than that, using the term is said make it sound that his born and death was not true, what we are trying to clarify his action and not his death and life and if it his death and life then he should not be on Wikipedia page, so it will be more reasonable to speak about his action as "it is said"

2- not sure about the source of the information about his death date being on Oct 29/1956, what I have information about is that he was a naval officer and that the naval fight started as documented by Michael H. Coles in his "A Successful Naval Operation Compromised by Inept Political Leadership from his NAVAL WAR COLLEGE REVIEW" on page 108, started on the night of Oct 31 1956

3- using the term activated suicidal bomb, is based on what source of information link 4 is not working at all, the only information available is that he was an officer in the Navy who died in war. so how did we get the information about suicidal bomb and why a Navy officer will use a suicidal bomb on a boat????? please provide with the source of that information and if there is no evidence for this information please edit to present what is known not what is speculated!

4- this file is full with historical mistakes example is the name of the French Battleship is "Jean Bart" which is documented in Coles book that I referred to above.

5- adding the point about the Moufti speech and using that to confirm incorrect information (suicidal bomb) does not help as his speech is not a verifying, or validation point, it represent a personal opinion and it is not supported by a respectable evidence yet, but creates more confusion about the person referred too in this article.

I hope this will help start the conversation and clarify my edit point reasons.

please provide me with the respectable published source for the information in this article. I hope I hear from you and we clarify the points I am arguing about here and update the article with what represent real information and not speculation thanks 06:19, 20 July 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jules Jammal (talk • contribs)

I've copied the above from my talk page, and will respond later today.  Sandstein  07:55, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Jules Jammal (talk) 13:12, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Jules Jammal (talk) 13:08, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

thanks for the response the following link http://www.syrianhistory.com/ar/photos/1021?search=%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%84+%D8%AC%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%84 as for the above link then is what is written in Arabic and I provided below the exact translation word to word.

وُلِد جول جمال (1932-1956) في مدينة اللاذقية وتلقى علومه الأساسية وأتم فيها المرحلة الثانوية عام 1952. التحق بالكلية البحرية في أيلول 1953، وأُرسل في بعثة عسكرية إلى مصر لإكمال دراسته في الكلية البحرية في الإسكندرية، وتخرج برتبة ملازم بحار في أيار 1956. في 29 تشرين الأول 1956 بدأ العدوان الثلاثي على مصر، وأعطيت الأوامر للقوات البحرية المصرية بالتصدي للقطع البحرية الفرنسية والإنكليزية والإسرائيلية المهاجمة، واستثني ضباط البعثة السورية من المشاركة في هذه العمليات حفاظاً عليهم. غير أن جول جمال تقدم بطلب خطي للسماح له بالمشاركة في هذه المهمة، و قوبل الطلب بالرفض أول الأمر، ثم تمت الموافقة عليه بناء على إلحاحه، وتم إلحاقه بمجموعة من ثلاثة زوارق طوربيد كلفت اعتراض السفن الحربية المعادية في مياه بحيرة البُرُلّس شمالي الدلتا، وتمكنت هذه المجموعة من إصابة المدمرة الفرنسية جان دارك وتعطيلها، غير أن الطائرات المعادية تمكنت من إغراق الزوارق الثلاثة، واستشهد أكثر بحارتها و منهم الملازم أول جول جمال في الرابع من تشرين الثاني عام1956 -

"Jules Jammal was born (1932-1956) in Latakia and received his education and finished high school in 1952. in Sep 1953 he enlisted in the Syrian Naval academy, he was sent by the Syrian Navy to Egypt to complete his study in the Naval Academy in Alexandria and graduated as first lieutenant in May 1956. In Oct 29/1956 the Tripartite Aggression. Orders was given to the Egyptian naval forced to engage the French, English, and Israeli naval forces, Syrian students were excluded from the operation as they were not Egyptian. Except Jules Jammal requested that he participate in the Naval force operation , which was rejected first , and then was accepted after his persistent request, he was assigned to one of three motor torpedo boats to fight in the Burullus lake north of the Delta, the group was able to hit the French Destroyer Jean D’Arc and sabotage it, except that the attacking flights was able to sink the three motor torpedo boats, and most participating sailors where killed and one of them was the first lieutenant Jules Jammal on Nov 4/1956 "

there is couple of points here. 1- there is no mention for Suicide bomb, so again please provide with respectful source that support that. 2- even in that peace there is another error as I am not sure if there was a ship called Jean D'arc in the French navy, one of the ship that participated in the war was the French fast fifteen-inch-gun battleship Jean Bart, which make me wonder was it a pronunciation error in the Arab media.

again let us have information supported by evidence and not just speculation.

thanks again for your kind response. I hope you find this helpful to clarify the confusion and remove any information in this article that is not passed on respectable reference. Jules Jammal (talk) 13:12, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi, OK, thanks for responding. I suggest that we first agree about which sources to use.

On Wikipedia, we use only reliable sources, as described at WP:RS. This excludes self-published sources such as blogs. With respect to this:

• Is there any reason to believe that "syrianhistory.com" is not a self-published source, i.e., a website somebody published without editorial oversight and peer review? Why should we even consider using it as a source?
• You refer to a book by Michael H. Cole, but you don't give its exact title or ISBN. Could you provide that, please? And if you have the book, could you temporarily post a scan or photo of the relevant page to an online image host such as imgur so that we can all verify the contents?
• Are there any other additional reliable sources we should consider? Do you have any specific objections to the sources currently used?

Thanks,  Sandstein  15:46, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Comment Regarding the reliability of SyrianHistory.com, I believe it passes as an RS, although the extraordinary claim that Jean Bart was "destroyed" doesn't match up with its article. SyrianHistory's editor-in-chief is Sami Moubayed who has published several great works about Syria. See here. Also, here's the English translation for the page User:Jules Jammal is referring to: [4]. Furthermore, I have found Moubayed's Syria and the USA: Washington's Relations with Damascus from Wilson to Eisenhower, Page 143, which states "Young Syrians volunteered to fight alongside the Egyptian Army at Suez. One of them, a young naval officer named Jules Jammal, was killed when he crashed himself into a French warship, for which he was forever immortalised in both Syria and Egypt." This source appears to say that the French ship was Jean Bart. --Al Ameer (talk) 18:32, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Jules Jammal (talk) 01:31, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you both for your responses

let me start by responding to --Al Ameer

thanks for your comments,

first I am not arguing about the existence of first lieutenant Jules Jammal, I am arguing the accuracy of the details of his death.

my point here that the English translation that is provided on the SyrianHistory website, and the ' the Arabic version' , and the book of Sami Moubayed they don't all match ,

as you can see in the translation that I provided of the Arabic version, the motor torpedo boat was destroyed by air force,

in Sami Moubayed book he crashed his boat in Jean Bart,

and in the English translation of the SyrianHistory website he "crashing his boat, filled with explosives".

so we have two version agree on the concept of crashing his boat in Jean Bart and a third one his boat was destroyed by air force.

we also know that Jean Bart " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_battleship_Jean_Bart_(1940)" In 1956, took part in the operations off Port-Saïd during the Suez Crisis, but only fired four rounds with her 380 mm (15 in) guns against land targets. Most French fire support came from the Aeronavale Corsairs launched from the carriers Arromanches, and the La Fayette. The Jean Bart‍ '​s main operational contribution was to ship the 1st Foreign Parachute Regiment from Algiers to Cyprus.[60][62]"

unless the French Navy provide that a motor torpedo boat has clashed with Jean Bart in 1956, I am not sure that we can confirm that he crashed in a boat.

Regardless none of the information we have available justify the following phrase on the Wikipedia page " Jammal activated a suicide bomb when he rammed his boat into a French ship, destroying it and dying in the process", in addition the term is reserved to "a person who has a bomb hidden on his or her body and who kills himself or herself in the attempt to kill others" " http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/british/suicide-bomber".

as for the points brought up by User:Sandstein

I agree we need a more reliable sources to confirm the accuracy of the story or refusing it. as one single source provided three different version of the same story.

1- As per the paper by Michael H. Cole, here is the link to it "https://www.usnwc.edu/Publications/Naval-War-College-Review/2006---Autumn.aspx" under "Suez, 1956: A Successful Naval Operation Compromised by Inept Political Leadership - Michael H. Coles"

2-I have no objection to any source that has reliability, I do believe in facts and documented evidence. Jules Jammal (talk) 01:31, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

OK, thanks for the input. I think we can forget about the Coles paper, because it doesn't mention Jammal at all. So the situation we have is that one apparently reliable source, by Moubayed, says that he was on a boat that was shot down, another by Moubayed that he crashed into the Jean Bart. I think we can mention that and note how the sources differ. As to him sinking a capital ship, I think we obviously can't write that, because that would be an extraordinary claim that would need extraordinary good sources - and we would certainly mention the loss of a warship in the articles about the conflict. I'm ok with removing the suicide bomb text because we don't seem to have sources for that, or do we?  Sandstein  16:11, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

But if you mean the Grand Mufti speech, I think that should stay in, because it illustrates how Jammal is remembered in the area. That Jammal was a suicide bomber isn't alleged in Wikipedia's voice in that paragraph, but attributed to the Mufti.  Sandstein  16:14, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Sandstein about addressing the apparent contradiction in the Moubayed sources, removal of suicide bomb bit, and keeping Mufti Hassoun's quoted statement with attribution. --Al Ameer (talk) 20:41, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Jules Jammal.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:17, 21 March 2020 (UTC)