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Former good article nomineeReligion in India was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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June 9, 2007Peer reviewReviewed
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identified with the Hindu god Shiva Is not Real

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identified with the Hindu god Shiva Is not Real The Pashupati seal is buddha i have proof

real image :- https://indiahosty.in/real_image.jpg fake image :- https://indiahosty.in/fake_image.jpg pls update it i will request you Rajendraumale673 (talk) 08:05, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No. It's nonsense. Please start reading WP:RS. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 08:25, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ok thank you Rajendraumale673 (talk) 08:30, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sourced content removal - Sufi's and the spread of Islam in India

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@Abecedare and Kautilya3: Aziyyat has removed sourced content and I request you to help add it back.-Haani40 (talk) 07:21, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Page number was not added and looking through the reference given it doesn't state what was given by you. Aziyyat (talk) 07:23, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Haani40 added (in bold) diff

Islam's spread in India mostly took place under the Delhi Sultanate (1206–1526) and the Mughal Empire (1526–1858), greatly aided by the mystic Sufi tradition.[1] However no evidence can be found in support of the theory that this Islamisation was due to Sufis.[2]

References

  1. ^ chandru. "SUFISM IN INDIA: Its origin, history and politics". Southasiaanalysis.org. Archived from the original on 18 December 2010. Retrieved 3 February 2011.
  2. ^ "The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204–1760". UC Press E-Books Collection, 1982-2004. Retrieved 2024-03-24.
Yet, what the source says is

... a fourth theory, which I call the Religion of Social Liberation thesis [...] when Islam “arrived” in the Indian subcontinent, carrying its liberating message of social equality as preached (in most versions of the theory) by Sufi shaikhs, these same oppressed castes, seeking to escape the yoke of Brahmanic oppression and aware of a social equality hitherto denied them, “converted” to Islam en masse [...] no evidence can be found in support of the theory.

"The theory" refers to the idea that oppressed castes converted to Islam to escape oppression; the sufi's are a subset of this theory, but not what the author's rejection is refering to. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:31, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Aziyyat: it is just one page which says,

"To this end a fourth theory, which I call the Religion of Social Liberation thesis, is generally pressed into service. Created by British ethnographers and historians, elaborated by many Pakistani and Bangladeshi nationals, and subscribed to by countless journalists and historians of South Asia, especially Muslims, this theory has for long been the most widely accepted explanation of Islamization in the subcontinent. The theory postulates a Hindu caste system that is unchanging through time and rigidly discriminatory against its own lower orders. For centuries, it is said, the latter suffered under the crushing burden of oppressive and tyrannical high-caste Hindus, especially Brahmans. Then, when Islam “arrived” in the Indian subcontinent, carrying its liberating message of social equality as preached (in most versions of the theory) by Sufi shaikhs, these same oppressed castes, seeking to escape the yoke of Brahmanic oppression and aware of a social equality hitherto denied them, “converted” to Islam en masse.

It can be seen that by juxtaposing what it perceives as the inherent justice of Islam and the inherent wickedness of Hindu society, the Religion of Social Liberation theory identifies motives for conversion that are, from a Muslim perspective, eminently praiseworthy. The problem, however, is that no evidence can be found in support of the theory. Moreover, it is profoundly illogical.

Haani40 (talk) 07:31, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
you've certainly got a point here, worth exploring and incorporating, but you presented it incorrect. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:35, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But the text said sufis aided with spreading islam it didn't claim it was due to the caste system that these conversions took place which this reference says that wasn't the case. Aziyyat (talk) 07:52, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This theory doesn't state anything about sufis not converting people but about the caste system being the main cause of the conversion. Aziyyat (talk) 07:38, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshua Jonathan: thanks for reading all that. Now, can you propose a better sentence? -Haani40 (talk) 07:40, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its not relevant to what was given as the text said sufis greatly aided the spread of islam while the reference you have given states it wasn't due to the caste system which wasn't mentioned at all. Aziyyat (talk) 07:42, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshua Jonathan and Aziyyat: The gist of this

The theory postulates a Hindu caste system that is unchanging through time and rigidly discriminatory against its own lower orders. For centuries, it is said, the latter suffered under the crushing burden of oppressive and tyrannical high-caste Hindus, especially Brahmans. Then, when Islam “arrived” in the Indian subcontinent, carrying its liberating message of social equality as preached (in most versions of the theory) by Sufi shaikhs, these same oppressed castes, seeking to escape the yoke of Brahmanic oppression and aware of a social equality hitherto denied them, “converted” to Islam en masse.

is

.....these same oppressed castes, seeking to escape the yoke of Brahmanic oppression and aware of a social equality hitherto denied them, “converted” to Islam en masse, as preached (in most versions of the theory) by Sufi shaikhs.

Lower down, it says that there is no evidence for it. -Haani40 (talk) 08:07, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But the text just stated that they were greatly aided by the sufis it did not claim the conversions was due to caste based discriminations Aziyyat (talk) 08:09, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshua Jonathan and Aziyyat: So, can we add, "There is no evidence that oppressed castes converted to Islam, greatly aided by the sufis. "?-Haani40 (talk) 08:16, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Caste was not mentioned at all in the paragraph why mention it at all here? Aziyyat (talk) 08:18, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So it can be, "There is no evidence that conversion to Islam was greatly aided by the sufis."-Haani40 (talk) 08:21, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The reference you gave claimed that it wasn't due to the caste system while in the original paragraph it states sufis aided with the spread of islam it makes no sense to add that in the text or add anything about caste which was not mentioned at all in the paragraph. Aziyyat (talk) 08:26, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So skip that. Please see my last edit. -Haani40 (talk) 08:31, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your last edit raises the same point's I already responded to. Aziyyat (talk) 08:34, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Abecedare and Joshua Jonathan: Aziyyat has removed this sourced content again. A warning may be issued.-Haani40 (talk) 08:48, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You need to gain a consensus your edit is being disputed and you have stopped answering the replies I have left. Aziyyat (talk) 08:49, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aziyyat, @Joshua Jonathan: removed some text with this edit and you reverted it. Now, it is you who needs to explain why what he removed should be added back or why what I added was removed by you.-Haani40 (talk) 08:57, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I explained before the reference you used doesn't say islam was not greatly aided by sufis your reference says it wasn't based on the caste system that lead to people converting to islam. Aziyyat (talk) 09:00, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aziyyat With this edit you removed sourced content which was condensed from the source.-Haani40 (talk) 09:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But the reference used doesn't say sufis didn't play a part in spreading islam so why add that they didn't? Aziyyat (talk) 09:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Aziyyat:, Joshua Jonathan removed the text, ".......greatly aided by the mystic Sufi tradition." I let that remain and added, "However, there is no evidence for the same." with a source. You are wasting our time by reverting our edits repeatedly.-Haani40 (talk) 09:24, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But the reference you gave doesn't state that the sufis didn't either you can't add things without a reference. Aziyyat (talk) 09:26, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The source I cited does say that and @Joshua Jonathan: feels the same.-Haani40 (talk) 09:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Joshua hasn't stated the same and the referance you gave doesn't state sufis didn't help spread islam. Aziyyat (talk) 09:58, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This feels like a Monty Python scetch... The social liberation theory says Indians converted to Islam to gain freedom; the Wiki-text says nothing about that theory. Maybe you're right that Sufi's didn't have a role as large as thought, but in that case additional should be available. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:37, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Joshua Jonathan: I could find this online but is it a reliable source we can cite?-Haani40 (talk) 09:56, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No its a blog site and even in that website it doesn't claim sufis didnt spread islam you need to back this claim up. Aziyyat (talk) 09:59, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshua Jonathan and Aziyyat: The reference I used first does say that there is no evidence that Sufis spread Islam in India. There are numerous sources for the atrocities and forced conversions in the Indian subcontinent but I guess we can't put that in one sentence.-Haani40 (talk) 10:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The new referance you gave from the blog doesn't state that anyway it doesn't say islams growth wasn't aided by sufis while the old referance you gave doesn't state that anywhere either. Aziyyat (talk) 10:37, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshua Jonathan: has said that, "...that Sufi's didn't have a role as large as thought". I am tired of repeatedly saying the same thing.-Haani40 (talk) 10:48, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thats not what he said he has called you out on it as being disruptive. Aziyyat (talk) 11:23, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wrote

Maybe you're right that Sufi's didn't have a role as large as thought, but in that case additional should be available.

Either you're incompetent, or you intentionally try to mislead your fellow editors. In both you're WP:DISRUPTIVE. Take that as a warning. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 10:56, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - I have seen Eaton cited for these kind of claims before, but it should really be used as a summary for the "four conventional theories", each of which is indadequate (in Eaton's words). That doesn't mean they were "false". All four of them did play some role, especially the caste system. Eaton's critique of it has to do with his topic, Bengal frontier, where a completely different factor was at play, viz., that those populations didn't have much Hinduism to start with. On the other hand, when you look at central parts of India, where Muslim proportions range between 10-20 percent of the populations, you would see all four factors at play. By the way, I don't see why Joshua Jonathan removed the "aided by Sufi mystics" phrase. It is not at all controversial. I will add a better source. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:03, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I believe you are right. I will leave it to you to do the needful. By the way, the source I used first, this does mention all 4 "theories".-Haani40 (talk) 11:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Joshua Jonathan, Aziyyat, and Kautilya3: I want to change,

    .....greatly aided by the mystic Sufi tradition.[73][74

    to,

    There are four theories for the islamization of the Indian subcontinent although none of them are adequate which are the immigration theory, the Religion of the Sword thesis, the Religion of patronage theory and the Religion of Social Liberation thesis.[1][2]

    .-Haani40 (talk) 17:04, 24 March 2024 (UTC)    [reply]
    However, someone may object about the 4th theory because it also says,

    "To this end a fourth theory, which I call the Religion of Social Liberation thesis, is generally pressed into service. Created by British ethnographers and historians, elaborated by many Pakistani and Bangladeshi nationals, and subscribed to by countless journalists and historians of South Asia, especially Muslims, this theory has for long been the most widely accepted explanation of Islamization in the subcontinent. The theory postulates a Hindu caste system that is unchanging through time and rigidly discriminatory against its own lower orders. For centuries, it is said, the latter suffered under the crushing burden of oppressive and tyrannical high-caste Hindus, especially Brahmans. Then, when Islam “arrived” in the Indian subcontinent, carrying its liberating message of social equality as preached (in most versions of the theory) by Sufi shaikhs, these same oppressed castes, seeking to escape the yoke of Brahmanic oppression and aware of a social equality hitherto denied them, “converted” to Islam en masse.

    It can be seen that by juxtaposing what it perceives as the inherent justice of Islam and the inherent wickedness of Hindu society, the Religion of Social Liberation theory identifies motives for conversion that are, from a Muslim perspective, eminently praiseworthy. The problem, however, is that no evidence can be found in support of the theory. Moreover, it is profoundly illogical.

    -Haani40 (talk) 17:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)    [reply]
    I don't see the need or point the reference was about the bengal region as @Kautilya3 pointed out and that all three may have played a role in spreading it into bengal. Aziyyat (talk) 19:01, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This was about bengal not of south asia as a whole. Aziyyat (talk) 19:02, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Aziyyat: please read up both the references cited - it is not limited to Bengal.-Haani40 (talk) 19:17, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The blog one is not crediable enough for wiki standards while the first one does mention bengal. Aziyyat (talk) 19:49, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Sock strike. — Kaalakaa (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The first paragraph of the source says,

    Theories purporting to explain the growth of Islam in India may be reduced to four basic modes of reasoning

    So it it is not limited to Bengal. However, I would prefer Kautilya3 to comment about that.-Haani40 (talk) 21:07, 24 March 2024 (UTC)    [reply]
    The article about Persecution of Hindus has references about how Islamisation happened in India.-Haani40 (talk) 21:55, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The theories, as stated by Eaton, are crudely described because he is basically wanting to shoot them down, and I don't see them fit for encyclopedia. If any of those theories are worth stating, we would need to find sources that treat them sympathetically rather than being set up to be shot down. Take the caste issue for example. Avari states that conversion was an attractive option for lower-caste Hindus and there is no reason to doubt that. "Religion by Social Liberation theory" is a crude description for it, People may not have been after "liberation", but some kind of improvement in their social position. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:33, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204–1760". UC Press E-Books Collection, 1982-2004. Retrieved 2024-03-24.
  2. ^ "Approaches to the Study of Conversion to Islam in India" (PDF). Retrieved 2024-03-24.

Iranian religions in lead

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The lead currently reads, regarding Zoroastrianism and the Bahá'í Faith:

these religions are otherwise largely exclusive to their native Persia where they originated from.

I'm not sure that this phrase is really justified, particularly the word "exclusive". I can sort of see why this could be said of Zoroastrianism due to historical and demographic factors, but it doesn't seem at all justified for the Bahá'í Faith. All the same, both List of countries by Zoroastrian population and Baháʼí Faith by country show a fairly even spread across the globe outside of India. Thoughts? dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 06:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Society, Ethics, and Technology

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2019 and 22 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Singhsimranjit071294 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Charshenk (talk) 14:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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