Talk:United States
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Q1. How did the article get the way it is?
Q2. Why is the article's name "United States" and not "United States of America"?
Isn't United States of America the official name of the U.S.? I would think that United States should redirect to United States of America, not vice versa as is the current case.
Q3. Is the United States really the oldest constitutional republic in the world?
1. Isn't San Marino older?
2. How about Switzerland?
Many people in the United States are told it is the oldest republic and has the oldest constitution, however one must use a narrow definition of constitution. Within Wikipedia articles it may be appropriate to add a modifier such as "oldest continuous, federal ..." however it is more useful to explain the strength and influence of the US constitution and political system both domestically and globally. One must also be careful using the word "democratic" due to the limited franchise in early US history and better explain the pioneering expansion of the democratic system and subsequent influence.
Q4. Why are the Speaker of the House and Chief Justice listed as leaders in the infobox? Shouldn't it just be the President and Vice President?
The President, Vice President, Speaker of The House of Representatives, and Chief Justice are stated within the United States Constitution as leaders of their respective branches of government. As the three branches of government are equal, all four leaders get mentioned under the "Government" heading in the infobox. Q5. What is the motto of the United States?
There was no de jure motto of the United States until 1956, when "In God We Trust" was made such. Various other unofficial mottos existed before that, most notably "E Pluribus Unum". The debate continues on what "E Pluribus Unum"'s current status is (de facto motto, traditional motto, etc.) but it has been determined that it never was an official motto of the United States. Q6. Is the U.S. really the world's largest economy?
The United States was the world's largest national economy from about 1880 and largest by nominal GDP from about 2014, when it surpassed the European Union. China has been larger by Purchasing Power Parity, since about 2016. Q7. Isn't it incorrect to refer to it as "America" or its people as "American"?
In English, America (when not preceded by "North", "Central", or "South") almost always refers to the United States. The large super-continent is called the Americas. Q8. Why isn't the treatment of Native Americans given more weight?
The article is written in summary style and the sections "Indigenous peoples" and "European colonization" summarize the situation. |
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Excessive references
[edit]I like this article, but in my opinion the number of references (565; 579 on 26 July 2024) is excessive. JacktheBrown (talk) 15:45, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- The large number of references is unavoidable, even inevitable. The article "United States" is the most-read country article in English Wikipedia. In other Wikipedia languages, it often ranks second (after the main country that speaks that language). The U.S. is very powerful and has many detractors, so all statements and assertions—especially the positive ones—must be supported. They are otherwise challenged and can become full-blown disputes. Mason.Jones (talk) 18:46, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Mason.Jones: Russia and China are also very powerful, but this doesn't justify the huge amount of sources in the U.S. and Russia articles. JacktheBrown (talk) 10:57, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Mason.Jones: the Italy article last year had 151 more references. It seems strange to me that the number of references here has increased compared to last year. JacktheBrown (talk) 19:05, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- Not surprising, as "United States" has become far more prone to disputes, reverts, and disruption than other country articles. Editors have learned to back up even general statements with a firm source, including thorough documentation. Mason.Jones (talk) 20:22, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- Compiling bibliographies and updating sources is a major activity of historians and scholars here on Wikipedia. Moxy🍁 11:53, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Our purpose.....Wikipedia, like other encyclopedias, provides overviews of a topic and indicates sources of more extensive information. Moxy🍁 18:54, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- This is a pretty good problem to have. Around 10k words is fairly large for a Wikipedia article, and United States is the most-linked article on the English Wikipedia,[1] so it gets more scrutiny than others. Rjjiii (talk) 23:00, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Rjjiii: totally agree. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:08, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Rjjiii: the United States page is important and it's a pity that it isn't handled as such with regard to references. JacktheBrown (talk) 13:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Rjjiii: and it's strange that with so many Americans this page hasn't been condensed. JacktheBrown (talk) 13:48, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think it needs to be condensed, it is far below the limit of 15,000 words. What is the issue with having lots of references? Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:52, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- 15k words isn't "the limit", really that number is there so people who do not understand that articles are not meant to be the length of a book can have something in policy pointed out to them. I'll grant that 10k seems alright for this article.
- The point here is that every claim in an article should be sourced: some claims require multiple sources, most are fine with just one. It scans to me that this article likely could use someone economizing the number of different sources used for all its claims. Remsense ‥ 诉 08:23, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Countries are big and complex with various aspects. A good, encyclopedic summary should still be long to cover that variety, but it should link to articles on individual subtopics. I would think most country articles should be similar in size to this one and have a similar number of citations. United Kingdom has 550, Brazil has 519, Italy has 451, Egypt has 316. These seem appropriate to me. If anything, it's articles like Gabon with 68 or Togo with 97 that need help to become more adequate summaries, although you could say they are also fine at the length they are. IndigoManedWolf (talk) 07:57, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think it needs to be condensed, it is far below the limit of 15,000 words. What is the issue with having lots of references? Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:52, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- This is a pretty good problem to have. Around 10k words is fairly large for a Wikipedia article, and United States is the most-linked article on the English Wikipedia,[1] so it gets more scrutiny than others. Rjjiii (talk) 23:00, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- The large number of references is unavoidable, even inevitable. The article "United States" is the most-read country article in English Wikipedia. In other Wikipedia languages, it often ranks second (after the main country that speaks that language). The U.S. is very powerful and has many detractors, so all statements and assertions—especially the positive ones—must be supported. They are otherwise challenged and can become full-blown disputes. Mason.Jones (talk) 18:46, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 August 2024
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38.25.16.57 (talk) 17:28, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Stop Calling the USA @America@, America is a continent with 3 sub continents: South, North and Central America. USA is USA. Everybody living in any subcontinent of America is american. Stop hijacking the term.
- Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{Edit extended-protected}}
template. Remsense ‥ 论 17:29, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oh no, not this again! I suggest that you read American (word) which explains why "America" refers to the US in English. The anglosphere regards the Americas as two separate continents: North and South America, and only one country in the Americas, the United States of America, has "America" directly in its name. Because of that, only those from the US are considered "American" in the English language. As this is the English Wikipedia, we refer to the US as "America" and people from the US as "Americans". -- RockstoneSend me a message! 21:53, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Also, see FAQ question number 7 on this page, as well as the numerous previous talk page threads in the archives that deal with this issue. Dhtwiki (talk) 01:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 August 2024
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The link to China goes to Taiwan and it is very clear Mainland China is meant so the link should go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China 2A02:1810:497:7200:7181:BC3E:EFA1:31E8 (talk) 19:07, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not done: The Republic of China, the current link, refers to mainland China from 1912 to 1949, which is the intended target. The Taiwan article refers to that republic as it is today on that island. The present-day China you've requested refers to the People's Republic of China. TheWikiToby (talk) 19:30, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 September 2024
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I would like this to sat the work :MURICA; somewhere in the reading artical. 24.248.178.166 (talk) 16:40, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. CMD (talk) 17:34, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 September 2024
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Respectfully, I state that in this article I'll perfome my best and remove the same citations and add another web or citation. Pistasolanki15 (talk) 10:45, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Note: The protection on this page is not tied to specific accounts, however if you have suggestions please do suggest them here. CMD (talk) 13:54, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
Indigenous peoples History Links
[edit]For the further information part of the Indigenous peoples section history for further information it links Native Americans in the United States page. But for the history section would it not be better to have it link to History of Native Americans in the United States page. For the history section of the page it should link to the page specifically about Indigenous history then the current more broad just about Indigenous in general? Aojrocks (talk) 05:51, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- That makes general sense to me, maybe add it with that justification and see if anyone reverts it? (In the visual editor, just double-click the "See also" or "Further information" (I forget the name) template and change the right field). Mrfoogles (talk) 16:35, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
[j]
[edit]The [j] in the lede should be replaced to an [m] to look cleaner. DisneyGuy744 (talk) 21:05, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- It's important you remove it because it makes the article look filthy. The letter "m" is better. Can u please hurry up? DisneyGuy744 (talk) 21:18, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Remsense how is my comment difficult to understand? You know that tiny "[J]" in the first paragraph of this article, please replace it with an "[M]" to make this article 1000x cleaner DisneyGuy744 (talk) 21:24, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- can someone respond and change it? It's very important imo HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 22:24, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you! @HumansRightsIsCool DisneyGuy744 (talk) 22:27, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- @HumansRightsIsCool wait why can't you make the edit for me? You have 985 edits DisneyGuy744 (talk) 22:28, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you! @HumansRightsIsCool DisneyGuy744 (talk) 22:27, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- can someone respond and change it? It's very important imo HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 22:24, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Remsense how is my comment difficult to understand? You know that tiny "[J]" in the first paragraph of this article, please replace it with an "[M]" to make this article 1000x cleaner DisneyGuy744 (talk) 21:24, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Remember that Wikipedia is a volunteer service. Most people here are pretty busy doing their own stuff or editing other articles; they're not gonna be monitoring this page for most of the day to answer some people's questions.
- The letter chosen for the explanatory notes are chosen by the software itself to be consistent with the other footnotes. We have no say in what the individual letter displays as, unless we change all of them which would be a big hassle for something that doesn't really matter.
- Also, HumansRightsIsCool had their extended confirmed permissions removed in the past which is why they can't edit the article.
- Cheers brother. TheWikiToby (talk) 23:16, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
Jan 6 attacks being "widely described as an attempted coup d'état"
[edit]Just put back the being "widely described as an attempted coup d'état" statement back to the contemporary history section. A longer version was first added by @BootsED, removed by @Rjensen, put back by me, then shortened by @TheWikiToby as a sort of consensus version, which I think should be kept. In any case, I think given 4 editors and a number of reversions are involved, further deletions should be discussed in talk. (Because it's not clearly mentioned in the edit summary, this diff is where Rjensen removed the additional text). Mrfoogles (talk) 17:17, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- the problem is that scholars use coup to refer to the overthrow of the CURRENT government (that is an overthrow of Trump). Everyone agrees it was NOT an attempt to overthrow Trump. see Powell, Jonathan M., et al. "A Coup At the Capitol? Conceptualizing Coups and Other Antidemocratic Actions." International Studies Review 24.1 (2022): online here Rjensen (talk) 20:15, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- I just changed the wording of the sentence.
The attack was widely described as an attempted coup d'état.
- Changed to,
The attack was widely described as an attempted self-coup d'état.
(A self-coup being when the current government illegally tries to retain power)- Does that resolve the issue now? TheWikiToby (talk) 20:30, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- the problem is that scholars use coup to refer to the overthrow of the CURRENT government (that is an overthrow of Trump). Everyone agrees it was NOT an attempt to overthrow Trump. see Powell, Jonathan M., et al. "A Coup At the Capitol? Conceptualizing Coups and Other Antidemocratic Actions." International Studies Review 24.1 (2022): online here Rjensen (talk) 20:15, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- So yes, technically the attempt was a self-coup, not a coup d'état. A self-coup involves someone in power attempting to stay in power, while a coup d'état involves someone who is not in power attempting to gain power. However, most media isn't that specific when referring to the difference, so they simply called it a coup d'état rather than a self-coup. This is why my initial edit wrote that it was "widely described as an attempted coup d'état", not that it was a coup d'état. I also put that it was a self-coup after that. BootsED (talk) 21:14, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- yes that works forme. Rjensen (talk) 22:22, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Discussion of political polarization in contemporary history section
[edit]The current section essentially cites PEW and NBC polls, which talk about left-wing v. right-wing polarization, to say that polarization has increased, and then cites an Atlantic article to say that this was caused by the change of the topic of discussion to "sociopolitical debate on cultural issues", which doesn't say a lot by itself. I've changed it to explicitly describe left/right polarization, which all sources given explicitly support.
Also, I noticed the article doesn't actually have a clear source for this polarization contributing to Jan. 6: Britannica gives COVID-19 a lot of credit, so if polarization is mentioned, maybe that should also be? In any case, a source is needed and I've added a citation needed tag.
Some of the polarization bit may also be wrong. It says it "came to a head in the 2010s", but the only source for that is, I think, the PEW source saying that it as of 2014 was the worst polarization in 20 years in that year, because the study had been conducted then. According to Political polarization in the United States, "Polarization has increased since the 1970s, with rapid increases in polarization during the 2000s onwards.[1]" I'm pretty sure that sentence just needs to be deleted and replaced with maybe 2 sentences summarizing the main political polarization article. Mrfoogles (talk) 00:57, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- I think the section is pretty egregiously recentist, and beyond that flat out wrong and clearly OR. Remsense ‥ 论 20:57, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ Grumbach, Jacob M. (2018). "From Backwaters to Major Policymakers: Policy Polarization in the States, 1970–2014". Perspectives on Politics. 16 (2): 416–435. doi:10.1017/S153759271700425X. ISSN 1537-5927.
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 September 2024 (2)
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Somebody remove those redundant sources already or fix the citations! 64.189.18.28 (talk) 20:39, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- Note: Editors can clearly see the indicated issue already; you don't need to spam the talk page pointing it out further and it will not get resolved quicker as such. Remsense ‥ 论 20:50, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
Too many footnotes (Efn) in opening paragraph
[edit]There seems to be too many long explanatory footnotes (4) in the opening paragraph. This makes the introductory paragraph much less readable IMO.
The first regarding tribal sovereignty could be kept, as it is short, and it is not immediately clear what an "Indian reservation" is, it is genuinely explanatory information.
The second regarding territories is too long and unnecessary (it even lists uninhabited islands).
The third regarding land area can be removed or shortened, it is already in the Geography section.
The fourth can be removed and the Census and Population Clock added as sources. MarkiPoli (talk) 21:15, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- The second note was lengthened because editors kept adding such minutiae to the text, overwhelming the lede with more sentences. An EFN was therefore created. The fourth note was added because official populations in U.S. articles must come from the U.S. Census Bureau, but some editors were actually replacing total U.S. population figures (decennial census or recent annual estimate) with the very unofficial population clock. The EFN put the clock in perspective. Both EFNs might be streamlined, but they are preferable to the chaos we had before. Mason.Jones (talk) 16:48, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- This is an example of what not to do..... if it's that complicated shouldn't be in the lead. Moxy🍁 22:01, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- "Complicated" statistics were repeatedly added to the lede, as regular text. Editors refused to roll them back, so they were rolled into EFNs. There are probably too many now, and they could be pared down. Mason.Jones (talk) 16:47, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- This is an example of what not to do..... if it's that complicated shouldn't be in the lead. Moxy🍁 22:01, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- The second note was lengthened because editors kept adding such minutiae to the text, overwhelming the lede with more sentences. An EFN was therefore created. The fourth note was added because official populations in U.S. articles must come from the U.S. Census Bureau, but some editors were actually replacing total U.S. population figures (decennial census or recent annual estimate) with the very unofficial population clock. The EFN put the clock in perspective. Both EFNs might be streamlined, but they are preferable to the chaos we had before. Mason.Jones (talk) 16:48, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 September 2024
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Under the religious groups 'Mormonism' should be changed to 'LDS' as there's no such thing as Mormonism. It's called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. 98.146.164.238 (talk) 04:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Remsense ‥ 论 04:43, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 September 2024
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Hello,
Kindly include the fact that nowadays, people refer to the US as simply "The States" as a shorthand colloquialism, both spoken as well as written.
Thank you. Mammoos 007 (talk) 09:17, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Remsense ‥ 论 11:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Spanish is a federally required language!
[edit]As part of the treaty that made Puerto Rico part of the United States the right of people to deal with the government in Spanish was guaranteed. The U.S. has been a bilingual country for over 100 years. 24.22.239.84 (talk) 14:19, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- Puerto Rico is not part of the U.S. TFD (talk) 14:45, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- Puerto Rico (a self-governing unincorporated territory) is not the rule but the exception to every rule. Also, "dealing with the government in Spanish" on some federal forms and toll-free calls doesn't translate into a bilingual country. Mason.Jones (talk) 17:07, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- Not only was Puerto Rico not incorporated into the United States, but there is is no mention in the Treaty of Paris about language rights or the other territories of Cuba, the Philippines and Guam. TFD (talk) 19:46, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
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