Talk:Ansbach (district)
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Requested move 25 July 2016
edit- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Not moved as suggested / procedural close, specifically on the "Landkreis" scheme as proposed. @PanchoS: Since the newest comments did not offer other suggestions to a great extent, I suggest that future RMs that propose another scheme can happen relatively soon without needing to wait months. An explicit ping for comments at WikiProject Germany is also encouraged (non-admin closure) — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 21:44, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
- Ansbach (district) → Landkreis Ansbach
- Aschaffenburg (district) → Landkreis Aschaffenburg
- Augsburg (district) → Landkreis Augsburg
- Bamberg (district) → Landkreis Bamberg
- Bayreuth (district) → Landkreis Bayreuth
- Coburg (district) → Landkreis Coburg
- Fürth (district) → Landkreis Fürth
- Hof (district) → Landkreis Hof
- Landshut (district) → Landkreis Landshut
- Munich (district) → Landkreis München
- Passau (district) → Landkreis Passau
- Regensburg (district) → Landkreis Regensburg
- Rosenheim (district) → Landkreis Rosenheim
- Schweinfurt (district) → Landkreis Schweinfurt
- Würzburg (district) → Landkreis Würzburg
- Heilbronn (district) → Landkreis Heilbronn
- Karlsruhe (district) → Landkreis Karlsruhe
- Kassel (district) → Landkreis Kassel
- Offenbach (district) → Landkreis Offenbach
- Oldenburg (district) → Landkreis Oldenburg
- Osnabrück (district) → Landkreis Osnabrück
- Rostock (district) → Landkreis Rostock
- Kaiserslautern (district) → Landkreis Kaiserslautern
- Leipzig (district) → Landkreis Leipzig
- Zwickau (district) → Landkreis Zwickau
– This is a full list of rural districts (German: Landkreise), that are eponymous of the city they're surrounding but which is not part of the rural district.
Particularly for the Bavarian rural districts (15 out of the 25 listed), disambiguation with "(district)" doesn't work, as the surrounded cities form their own city district (German: Stadtkreis), both being not only considered "districts", but also named so. Therefore, at least in these cases, the rural districts are never referred to under the city's name only, omitting "Landkreis", which forms an indispensable part of the district's name. The only viable translation would therefore be "Ansbach rural district" or "Munich rural district", which is not particular common, even in English-language sources – it would still be an option, if widely preferred.
The question, whether all other rural districts that either a) do contain the eponymous city, or b) are named otherwise, should also be brought into line, may be discussed here, but should not hold up the rename of the particularly problematic cases listed here. Eponymous categories would be subsequently nominated to be accordingly renamed, per convention. -- PanchoS (talk) 11:36, 25 July 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. — Sam Sailor Talk! 18:15, 7 August 2016 (UTC))
Survey
edit- Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with
* '''Support'''or* '''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.)
- Oppose - I sort of think this is a solution looking for a problem, and I'm not keen on the proposed names, given that no other German districts have those German titles prepended to them. If a move is really necessary (and I'm not convinced it is, since nobody would normally think of any of those eponymous cities as "districts" per se), then I'd prefer "(rural district)" as a new disambiguator. — Amakuru (talk) 14:35, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
- @Amakuru: "I'm not keen" isn't exactly the policy-based argument needed here. But please think again, the fact that "nobody would normally think of any of those eponymous cities as 'districts'" is exactly the reason these districts have to be disambiguated. As you said, nobody would expect them not to contain the eponymous city, but that's exactly how it is. Also, it's not true that a solution is looking for a problem here. I just had to purge dozens of Ansbach-related articles from Category:Ansbach (district), with the same problem existing in other categories. The fact that nobody expects the district not to contain the city consistently leads to miscategorizations.
The alternative you're proposing, an addition of "(rural district)" has some advantages. Unfortunately, it however wouldn't completely fix the problem (except maybe for Munich, or Leipzig) as the eponymous cities are often quite small and widely unknown in the English-language world, so would be easily considered part of the rural district.
More importantly, I argued that "Landkreis Leipzig" or "Landkreis Offenbach" is never ever referred to as "Leipzig" or "Offenbach", neither is it the official name. so isn't an ambiguous term, which however is the actual purpose of WP:DAB.
So all we have is either Landkreis Leipzig, or Leipzig Rural District, as chosen by the Simple English Wikipedia. The latter however bears the disadvantage that Landkreis Reutlingen or Landkreis Gießen, aren't really rural districts ("rural" being a quite lopsided translation of the more generic "Land"), containing their eponymous cities with 110.000+ (Reutlingen) resp. 80.000+ (Gießen) inhabitants. So the best we can do is leave the German names untranslated. Sorry for the wall of text. --PanchoS (talk) 11:47, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- @Amakuru: "I'm not keen" isn't exactly the policy-based argument needed here. But please think again, the fact that "nobody would normally think of any of those eponymous cities as 'districts'" is exactly the reason these districts have to be disambiguated. As you said, nobody would expect them not to contain the eponymous city, but that's exactly how it is. Also, it's not true that a solution is looking for a problem here. I just had to purge dozens of Ansbach-related articles from Category:Ansbach (district), with the same problem existing in other categories. The fact that nobody expects the district not to contain the city consistently leads to miscategorizations.
Relisted - please add new comments below this notice. — Sam Sailor Talk! 18:15, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. This should not be taken in isolation as it is part of the overall convention for all German Kreise. That said, I would still oppose a wider proposal to change the current naming system which is based on the EU's official naming convention. In slower time, there may be merit in a thorough review of the names for the whole German municipal structure, but that is a major task that involves a combination of excellent translation skills and a detailed knowledge of the German system (and its state variants) as well as its equivalents in English-speaking countries (which themselves are not consistent). --Bermicourt (talk) 20:33, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose Unless "Landkreis" is part of the name - which I believe applies to one or two - there is no need. The town/city will always be the primary topic and by definition will also be identical and not being two entities sharing the same borders. That leaves another entity with the same name which needs to be disambiguated. Agathoclea (talk) 12:40, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:USEENGLISH. — JFG talk 03:54, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.