Mydaemonthirst

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Happy editing! DoubleGrazing (talk) 12:55, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Swindon Health Hydro (November 4)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted because it included copyrighted content, which is not permitted on Wikipedia. You are welcome to write an article on the subject, but please do not use copyrighted work.

• Draft:Swindon Health Hydro may be deleted at any time unless the copied text is removed. Copyrighted work cannot be allowed to remain on Wikipedia.
• If you need any assistance, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk or on the reviewer's talk page. or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

DoubleGrazing (talk) 12:54, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I accept that I got that wrong and I have since created another draft article Mydaemonthirst (talk) 18:48, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Mydaemonthirst! Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! DoubleGrazing (talk) 12:54, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I am contacting Historic England to see what they have to say. I should have contacted them before using their text - this is a new game for me. Please give me a few days to get a response. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 14:29, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay, but this draft is likely to be deleted anyway.

Also, HE need to realise that they aren't just giving permission (assuming) for you to use their text on Wikipedia, they are irrevocably releasing it into the public domain, after which anyone can do anything they want with that material.

The instructions for donating copyright material is at WP:DCM. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 14:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Draft:Swindon Health Hydro

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A tag has been placed on Draft:Swindon Health Hydro requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G12 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appears to be an unambiguous copyright infringement. This page appears to be a direct copy from https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1382135?section=official-list-entry. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images taken from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted. You may use external websites or other printed material as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. This part is crucial: say it in your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing.

If the external website or image belongs to you, and you want to allow Wikipedia to use the text or image — which means allowing other people to use it for any reason — then you must verify that externally by one of the processes explained at Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials. The same holds if you are not the owner but have their permission. If you are not the owner and do not have permission, see Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission for how you may obtain it. You might want to look at Wikipedia's copyright policy for more details, or ask a question here.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. DoubleGrazing (talk) 12:55, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I now don't seem able to get to the draft page to let Historic England know what text I used. If the page gets deleted, will that block forever any chance of creating a page for this important historic building? Mydaemonthirst (talk) 14:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

You may not use the text from the Historic England web site unless they provide a proper license release. You are allowed to try to write an article about the building using your own words. I've provided some summary information about copyright policy on Wikipedia below. -- Whpq (talk) 14:49, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I have created another draft article. This time with limited quotations from individual sources, all with inline citations. Multiple sources rather than just one. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 18:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia and copyright

Hello Mydaemonthirst! While we appreciate your contributions to Wikipedia, it's important to understand and adhere to guidelines about using information from sources to prevent copyright and plagiarism issues. Here are the key points:

• Limited quotation: You may only copy or translate a small portion of a source. Any direct quotations must be enclosed in double quotation marks (") and properly cited using an inline citation. More information is available on the non-free content page. To learn how to cite a source, see Help:Referencing for beginners.
• Paraphrasing: Beyond limited quotations, you are required to put all information in your own words. Following the source's wording too closely can lead to copyright issues and is not permitted; see Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing. Even when paraphrasing, you must still cite your sources as appropriate.
• Image use guidelines: In most scenarios, only freely licensed or public domain images may be used and these should be uploaded to our sister project, Wikimedia Commons. In some scenarios, non-freely copyrighted content can be used if they meet all ten of our non-free content criteria; Wikipedia:Plain and simple non-free content guide may help with determining a file's eligibility.
• Copyrighted material donation: If you hold the copyright to the content you want to copy, or are a legally designated agent, you may be able to license the text for publication here. Please see Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials.
• Copying and translation within Wikipedia: Wikipedia articles can be copied or translated, however they must have proper attribution in accordance with Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. For translation, see Help:Translation § License requirements.

It's very important that contributors understand and follow these practices. Persistent failure to comply may result in being blocked from editing. If you have any questions or need further clarification, please ask them here on this page, or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. Whpq (talk) 14:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying but it seems I will not get the opportunity to revise the page. This is my first attempt at creating a Wikipedia page and it seems that it may now never be possible to create a page about the Health Hydro. I'm nervous about making a fresh start because, if I get it wrong, I may be barred altogether from Wikipedia. There are a number of others who will want to contribute to the page but will certainly not be confident enough to update it directly themselves. My plan was to make a start but then get others to provide additional information with references, that I could then add. This is an important building and a lot of people in Swindon feel very strongly about it - we want to give it as much prominence as possible and a Wikipedia page would be part of that. It's not easy to come fresh to Wikipedia and create a page and I'm a bit shocked that, having got it wrong, I may have no opportunity to put things right. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 09:25, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Creating an article from scratch is one of the toughest things to do on Wikipedia. Help:Your first article provides some guidance on how to proceed. You will also want to make sure you that your topic meets the inclusion criteria for Wikipedia. This is almost always referred to as WP:Notability. This is established with significant coverage in independent WP:Reliable sources which you should add as inline citations. Help:Referencing for beginners provides information on how to do that. If the Swindon Health Hydro is a listed building, then there should be some material written about its historic value that would establish that the topic should be on Wikipedia. For help on editing Wikipedia, make use of the WP:Teahouse. The editors there will provide friendly advice and help on how to edit Wikipedia. Cheers. -- Whpq (talk) 14:24, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I have used multiple sources in a new draft, including ones that state the importance of the building. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 18:52, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Swindon Health Hydro (November 9)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Robert McClenon was:  The comment the reviewer left was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Swindon Health Hydro and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
• If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, on the reviewer's talk page or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Robert McClenon (talk) 23:31, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

The existing article is just about the Turkish Baths. I would need to rename the article, change it and add to it significantly, Would I be allowed to do all that? There are inaccuracies about the Turkish Baths - they are Victorian-style but Edwardian in age as they were built in 1904-5 and Queen Victoria died in 1901. The article is continually talking about the Turkish Baths and ignoring the large and small swimming pools. It also says nothing about the medical services provided - GP surgery, dispensary, dentistry, dental laboratory, prosthetics, psychology, opthalmology, chiropody and physiotherapy.

Only if I'm permitted to rename the existing article to Swindon Health Hydro, correct it and expand it significantly could I end up with a satisfactory article about the Swindon Health Hydro.

Corrections I've made in the Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths article (for instance changing 'Victorian' to 'Victorian-style') have already been reversed. Those who have created an article about the Turkish Baths may chop out everything I add.

There is no such entity as 'Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths'. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 01:26, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

If we can neither create a fresh article nor rename and revise the existing article then we will have been defeated and the building will never get its Wikipedia article. There is no point having an article entitled 'Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths', an entity that doesn't exist and no-one in Swindon will recognise.

I want to create an article that we can  publicise and invite people in Swindon to identify errors and omissions. This is on behalf of a campaigning group - 'Friends of Swindon Health Hydro'. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 11:24, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I'm not sure who you're addressing, but I'll respond.

Starting with your last point, it seems that you have an external relationship with the subject of your draft. This needs to be disclosed. I will post a separate message here about managing conflicts of interest; please read and action it promptly.

It may be possible to expand the existing Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths article with the information from your draft, but this is something which needs to be discussed first to gain consensus from the editing community. The proper place to discuss such a proposal is on the Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths talk page, at Talk:Swindon_Victorian_Turkish_Baths#Proposed_merge_of_Draft:Swindon_Health_Hydro_into_Swindon_Victorian_Turkish_Baths. Please join the conversation there.

You are welcome to edit the existing article, just like any other editor is, just remember to support your edits with reference to reliable sources. You may find that your edits are reverted or changed, at which point you should again discuss the matter on the article talk page. This is what we call the WP:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle.

Best, -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 11:46, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

The existing article is about the Turkish Baths that are just one part of the Health Hydro. There are also two swimming pools and a 'dry side' that once hosted a GP practice, a dispensary, a dentists, a dental surgery, prosthetics, ophthalmology, chiropody, psychology and physiotherapy departments. My article is intended to cover the whole history of the building from 1891 to the present day, the grade II* listing, building materials and features, the breadth of the medical services offered and the inspiration for the NHS. Also the recent developments relating to restoration projects and management of the building. If I merge all this into the existing article there will be two issues - the article will have the inappropriate title 'Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths' and the existing article's information about the Turkish Baths will be only a small part of the revised article. I've noticed that the author of the existing article has a particular interest in Turkish Baths and has created multiple articles on the subject. I would now like the title of my article to be 'Swindon Health Hydro, also known as Milton Road Baths' - the Hydro's official name used to be Milton Road Baths and many people in Swindon still refer to to it as that. If the article has to be called 'Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths' there will be no point in my doing any work on this at all. I had hoped to create a new article and cross-reference the existing article. I fear that the massive changes I would make to that article would upset those who have concentrated on Turkish Baths - have they been asked how they would feel about the Turkish Baths being swallowed up in this way?

If you insist that we keep with just one article named 'Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths' then this important building will not be represented in Wikipedia. There is no point my doing the hours of necessary work on an article whose title will mean nothing to anyone in Swindon and will simply be lost to sight. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 19:23, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Robert - I expected to make mistakes and get corrected - as when my first draft was correctly rejected. I did not expect such stiff opposition to the whole concept of creating an article about the Swindon Health Hydro. The existing article 'Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths' is about one element within the Hydro - there is much more to be said about the building. The existing article is part of telling the story of the Victorian Turkish Baths movement and that story deserves to be told - why can't it be left alone? I am now going to create a third draft article entitled 'Swindon Health Hydro, Formerly Known as Milton Road Baths'. I hope that this will make it absolutely clear that it is a separate story deserving a separate article. I expect that there will be improvements to be made but isn't that the point of a wiki?

Regards

Tim Marsden Mydaemonthirst (talk) 08:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Managing a conflict of interest

Hello, Mydaemonthirst. We welcome your contributions, but if you have an external relationship with the people, places or things you have written about on Wikipedia, you may have a conflict of interest (COI). Editors with a conflict of interest may be unduly influenced by their connection to the topic. See the conflict of interest guideline and FAQ for article subjects for more information. We ask that you:

• avoid editing or creating articles about yourself, your family, friends, colleagues, company, organization, clients, or competitors;
• propose changes on the talk pages of affected articles (you can use the {{edit COI}} template)—don't forget to give details of reliable sources supporting your suggestions;
• disclose your conflict of interest when discussing affected articles (see Wikipedia:Conflict of interest § How to disclose a COI);
• avoid linking to your organization's website in other articles (see Wikipedia:Spam § External link spamming);
• do your best to comply with Wikipedia's content policies.

In addition, you are required by the Wikimedia Foundation's terms of use to disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution which forms all or part of work for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation. See Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure.

Also, editing for the purpose of advertising, publicizing, or promoting anyone or anything is not permitted. Thank you. DoubleGrazing (talk) 11:47, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I have no formal connection with the building, only an interest in it as someone who lives in Swindon and wants to see its heritage preserved. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 12:05, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

You said earlier you're editing "on behalf of a campaigning group - 'Friends of Swindon Health Hydro'"? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 12:28, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

We are just an informal volunteer group. I have no material interest in the building. Are you barring me from creating a Wikipedia page because I'm interested in the future of the building I'm writing about? I wouldn't want to right about something I didn't care about. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 22:31, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@Mydaemonthirst It's okay to write about topics you have a relationship with - you just need to disclose it by following the instructions in the link above. qcne (talk) 16:59, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

which link? Mydaemonthirst (talk) 18:45, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I have no financial interest in the Swindon Health Hydro. I have no connection to the owners of the building (Swindon Borough Council) or the operators of the building (Greenwich Leisure Ltd, trading as Better) other than being a resident of one and a customer of the other. I am a member of Friends of Swindon Health Hydro, an informal group who are campaigning for the full refurbishment and full use of the building. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 19:28, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Mydaemonthirst, I think you do have a conflict of interest, so just pop that on your User Page following the instructions at WP:COI. This doesn't stop you editing or writing the draft/article, it just ensures transparency. qcne (talk) 21:46, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm confused by this - still haven't worked out how to record a conflict of interest, though I'm not sure why you think I have one. i keep replying to questions and mentioning my membership of an informal voluntary group but it seems I'm supposed to record this somewhere and I still don't know where. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 22:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

This process is unbelievably unfriendly. I've looked at the page on conflict of interest. Why isn't there a link that I can follow and record a conflict of interest? It should be a five minute task and I've now been attempting this task multiple times without success. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 09:05, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi again @Mydaemonthirst. You are right, unfortunately Wikipedia is pretty hard to use for new editors. Sorry about that.

If you go to your User Page at User:Mydaemonthirst, then paste in:

{{UserboxCOI|1=>''[[Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths]]''}}

then click Publish page, you'll have successfully declared your conflict of interest and you won't need to do anything else to declare it.

Let me know if you are still struggling or have any more questions. qcne (talk) 12:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that - I wanted to declare a conflict of interest but not having a clue how to do that was driving me nuts. As a member of 'Friends of Swindon Health Hydro', I do want to avoid anything that might imperil current or future funding bids for the building. Having said that, I'm trying to be as straightforward and factual as possible. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 13:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Swindon Health Hydro, Formerly Known as Milton Road Baths (November 20)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reasons left by SafariScribe were: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Swindon Health Hydro, Formerly Known as Milton Road Baths and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
• If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, on the reviewer's talk page or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 11:12, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

It's a long time since I've written an essay but I don't believe that the article is in essay form and I don't understand why that would matter anyway.

The sources I've cited are all genuine. Please specify which I'm not allowed to use. Removing these will leave me making statements I can't back up.

Some sources are paper sources held in Local Studies in Swindon Central Library - these were published by Swindon Borough Council or its predecessor Thamesdown Borough Council.

Other sources are documents held on Swindon Borough Council's planning pages - the URL is for the relevant planning application and the document can be found on that page. The planning documents published on that website are written either by the council's planning officer or a respected heritage consultant.

There are also references to newspaper articles, giving titles, dates and page numbers.

And there are URLs to websites for Google, The Victorian Society, Culham Ticket Office, the BBC, the Swindon Advertiser and Greenwich Leisure Ltd.

By original research do you mean reading documents in a library and then citing them? Is that banned?

I have not expressed my opinions in the article - I have quoted other people's opinions.

This article is written to replace the earlier draft article 'Swindon Health Hydro' because I was being told that I should amend 'Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths' rather than create a new article - this would have buried the story of the Health Hydro in an inappropriate place and also messed up the coverage of the Victorian Turkish baths movement.

I'm a big user of Wikipedia and will continue to be so but it seems that to contribute to it you need to know more about Wikipedia's numerous technicalities than about the subject you're actually interested in. My current intention is to add one article and make minor changes to some of the cross-referenced articles. If I succeed in this, which now seems unlikely, I might consider trying to create an article on Swindon's Railway Village. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 12:41, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@Mydaemonthirst, hello. I happened across the various articles, draft or otherwise, about the Swindon Health Hydro and the Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths, and found them interesting. I think that it is probably reasonable to have separate articles about the two, with a link from one to the other. However, as it stands I'd say that your current draft needs some work before it is likely to be accepted. N.B. that the yellow box above is a standard template, so it might not all be pertinent to your draft as it is. To my eyes - and I am not a hugely experienced editor of Wikipedia - I would say:

• There is too much cut'n'paste from sources to the article, whether quoted or not.
  • Obviously any unquoted material is a copyright violation and that is taken quite seriously. You might find this analysis useful to identify possible copyright violations.
  • But also, it is better to have an absolute minimum of quoted material. Rather it should be written in your own words, with the citation then supporting that. I had a go at doing that in the first section, so hopefully you can see what I mean.
• If you haven't already looked at the guidance, these two bits are quite worthwhile:
  • writing from a neutral point of view
  • using an encyclopedic style
• The article is probably too long as it stands, and you could usefully make it more concise.
• As to the title, I reckon it's too long. I would suggest Swindon Health Hydro with a subsequent redirect from Milton Road Baths.

I hope that is somewhat helpful. SunloungerFrog (talk) 17:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to prune and rework the article. I'm getting more source material. Also, I want it to fit into the context of Swindon's Railway Village - this will include some modification of the overview of the Railway Village in the Swindon Works article.

It will take me a bit of time before I'm ready to do this as will want to now get it right. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 06:52, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Well let me know if I can help in any way. I am happy to assist with copy editing your draft, or simply a read through with a second pair of eyes. SunloungerFrog (talk) 11:20, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I know that I need to trim the article and make a number of changes. At the moment, I'm concentrating on gathering more sources. One concern is a possible over-reliance on the Historic England listing entry. I also need to paraphrase more. When I've got more sources I will edit again.

One frustration is that I may need to remove a part of the story that I know to be factual - the provision of complementary medical offerings in the 1980s to the early 2000s. I've found local authority leaflets advertising the offerings and I'm in regular contact with the manager who brought complementary medicine into the building. To me it's a strange but interesting interlude. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 09:26, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if there is any press coverage of the complementary medicine offerings from the time? As to the leaflets, I think it is OK to use primary sources in small amounts, provided that there are sufficient secondary sources to establish its notability. In case you don't already have this in your files, https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/15008810.the-health-hydros-place-at-the-heart-of-a-healthcare-revolution/ looks like it might be useful. SunloungerFrog (talk) 10:12, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Someone I know thinks he may relevant newspaper cuttings - if so I will use that and the council leaflets. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 18:50, 27 November 2024 (UTC)