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Kadın Mebuslar
Aristophanes (MÖ 450?-MÖ 388?): Yaşamına dair pek kesin bilgiler yoktur. Yazdığı kırk kadar oyundan sadece on biri günümüze ulaşmıştır. Kıvrak ve keskin diliyle ünlü olan Aristophanes, komedya sanatının bütün inceliklerini çağının tanıklığıyla kaynaştırmış büyük bir tiyatro ustasıdır. Kadın Mebuslar’da, Aristophanes’in bir başka komedyası Lysistrata’ya benzer bir şekilde kadınların kent yönetimini ele geçirmesini konu edilir. Kadınların yönetiminde kent ve bütün mülkler herkesin ortak malı haline gelecek, herhangi bir hukuki dava görülmeyecektir artık. Platon’un Devlet’iyle birlikte ilk komünist ütopyalardan biri olarak da görülen Kadın Mebuslar, Türkçeye ilk kez Eski Yunanca aslından çevriliyor.
184 pages, Paperback
First published January 1, 393
About the author
Aristophanes
1,999 books686 followersAristophanes (Greek: Αριστοφάνης; c. 446 – c. 386 BC) was an Ancient Greek comic playwright from Athens and a poet of Old Attic Comedy. He wrote in total forty plays, of which eleven survive virtually complete today. These provide the most valuable examples of a genre of comic drama known as Old Comedy and are used to define it, along with fragments from dozens of lost plays by Aristophanes and his contemporaries.
Also known as "The Father of Comedy" and "the Prince of Ancient Comedy", Aristophanes has been said to recreate the life of ancient Athens more convincingly than any other author. His powers of ridicule were feared and acknowledged by influential contemporaries; Plato singled out Aristophanes' play The Clouds as slander that contributed to the trial and subsequent condemning to death of Socrates, although other satirical playwrights had also caricatured the philosopher.
Aristophanes' second play, The Babylonians (now lost), was denounced by Cleon as a slander against the Athenian polis. It is possible that the case was argued in court, but details of the trial are not recorded and Aristophanes caricatured Cleon mercilessly in his subsequent plays, especially The Knights, the first of many plays that he directed himself. "In my opinion," he says through that play's Chorus, "the author-director of comedies has the hardest job of all."
Also known as "The Father of Comedy" and "the Prince of Ancient Comedy", Aristophanes has been said to recreate the life of ancient Athens more convincingly than any other author. His powers of ridicule were feared and acknowledged by influential contemporaries; Plato singled out Aristophanes' play The Clouds as slander that contributed to the trial and subsequent condemning to death of Socrates, although other satirical playwrights had also caricatured the philosopher.
Aristophanes' second play, The Babylonians (now lost), was denounced by Cleon as a slander against the Athenian polis. It is possible that the case was argued in court, but details of the trial are not recorded and Aristophanes caricatured Cleon mercilessly in his subsequent plays, especially The Knights, the first of many plays that he directed himself. "In my opinion," he says through that play's Chorus, "the author-director of comedies has the hardest job of all."
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June 17, 2019
Kocalarının kıyafetlerini çalarak meclise giden kadınların yönetimi erkeklerden kadınlara verdiği "Kadın Mebuslar / Assembly of Women", Aristophanes'in ne kadar ileri görüşlü bir komedya yazarı olduğunu kanıtlayan çağının çok ötesinde bir yergi örneği. Ataerkil yönetim biçimini ağır bir dille eleştiren yapısıyla "Kadın Mebuslar"da kadınlar erkeklerin normal olarak gördüğü şeyleri kendilerine uyarlayarak eşitsizliği okuyucunun gözüne sokuyor. Yönetimi ele geçiren kadınların yeni bir yasayla cinsel ilişkiyi serbest hale getirmesi ve bunu yaparken erkeklerin öncelikli olarak yaşlı kadınlarla yatmak zorunda kalması oyunun mizahi tonunu destekliyor. Ortaya koyulan komünist düzenle Platon'un "Devlet"ini fazlasıyla hatırlatan oyunda alttan alta bir Platon'a bir eleştiri hissedilse de oyunun "Devlet"ten önce yazılmış olması akılda soru işareti barındırıyor. Buna ek olarak müstehcen diliyle Hipponax'ın şiirlerini hatırlatan oyunun mizahi düzeyi o kadar yüksek ki sanırım "Kadın Mebuslar" Aristophanes'in en sevdiğim oyunu olarak kalacak.
17.06.2019
İstanbul, Türkiye
Alp Turgut
http://www.filmdoktoru.com/kitap-labo...
17.06.2019
İstanbul, Türkiye
Alp Turgut
http://www.filmdoktoru.com/kitap-labo...
January 10, 2024
Ebbene sì, l’abito fa il monaco.
Lo sa bene Prassagora che, sottrae, nottetempo, la tunica e il mantello del marito.
Non è la sola, però, tutte le altre donne di Atene si travestono con abiti maschili e così mascherate si dirigono all’Assemblea cittadina.
Il governo non funziona come si deve: corruzione, ruberie, soprusi e tanto altro scontentano la popolazione.
Così le donne decidono di prendere in mano la situazione: non si può fare altro per cambiare rotta.
Con l’arte della retorica appresa di nascosto, con l’astuzia del travestimento per aver una possibilità di parlare altrimenti negata, le donne convincono la popolazione che solo loro possono avere le capacità per amministrare il bene comune.
Nasce una forma di governo utopica.
Come altre commedie di Aristofane, ancora una volta, il corpo delle donne è strumento potente che rende forti le donne.
Ancora una volta è la cospirazione delle donne a smuovere una situazione deteriorata dagli uomini. La trama è tuttavia, parodica.
La forma di governo è un’utopia ridicolizzata in una delle scene finali della commedia.
Per la legge appena approvata, infatti:
”«Le donne hanno deciso che se un giovane
«desidera una giovane, non possa
«goderla, se non ha prima goduta
«la vecchia; e se non vuol suonare questa,
«e s’appicca alla giovane, è permesso
«alle piú vecchie di ghermire il giovane
«pel piòlo, e tirarlo impunemente.»”
Insomma, lo spirito e la volontà di cambiamento finiscono con una grassa risata.
Donne vogliose e uomini che vogliono abbuffarsi ad un bel banchetto..
"CORO:
E quest’altre ragazzette
il ritmo seguano con le cianchette,
ché già in tavola si mette
ostrichepescedatagliolam-
predegattuccicervelliconsalsapiccantedi-
mielporrosilfïomerlipalombicolombipic-
ciontordicrestedigalcoditrèmole-
leprimostardadivincartilaginedalidipol!"
Lo sa bene Prassagora che, sottrae, nottetempo, la tunica e il mantello del marito.
Non è la sola, però, tutte le altre donne di Atene si travestono con abiti maschili e così mascherate si dirigono all’Assemblea cittadina.
Il governo non funziona come si deve: corruzione, ruberie, soprusi e tanto altro scontentano la popolazione.
Così le donne decidono di prendere in mano la situazione: non si può fare altro per cambiare rotta.
Con l’arte della retorica appresa di nascosto, con l’astuzia del travestimento per aver una possibilità di parlare altrimenti negata, le donne convincono la popolazione che solo loro possono avere le capacità per amministrare il bene comune.
Nasce una forma di governo utopica.
Come altre commedie di Aristofane, ancora una volta, il corpo delle donne è strumento potente che rende forti le donne.
Ancora una volta è la cospirazione delle donne a smuovere una situazione deteriorata dagli uomini. La trama è tuttavia, parodica.
La forma di governo è un’utopia ridicolizzata in una delle scene finali della commedia.
Per la legge appena approvata, infatti:
”«Le donne hanno deciso che se un giovane
«desidera una giovane, non possa
«goderla, se non ha prima goduta
«la vecchia; e se non vuol suonare questa,
«e s’appicca alla giovane, è permesso
«alle piú vecchie di ghermire il giovane
«pel piòlo, e tirarlo impunemente.»”
Insomma, lo spirito e la volontà di cambiamento finiscono con una grassa risata.
Donne vogliose e uomini che vogliono abbuffarsi ad un bel banchetto..
"CORO:
E quest’altre ragazzette
il ritmo seguano con le cianchette,
ché già in tavola si mette
ostrichepescedatagliolam-
predegattuccicervelliconsalsapiccantedi-
mielporrosilfïomerlipalombicolombipic-
ciontordicrestedigalcoditrèmole-
leprimostardadivincartilaginedalidipol!"
June 29, 2020
A group of women don fakes beards and their husbands' cloaks, all to attend the male assembly and convince the Athenians to turn the city's rule over to those more competent: the women.
Ok. This play is, eh... Hmm. I'm struggling to know where I should begin. Let's start off with a different Aristophanes' play, the Thesmophoriazusae which is all about the women of Athens hating Euripides' misogynistic plays so much that they decide to kill him. I hoped Euripides replied with some lost Satyr play about the female Athenians reacting to The Ecclesiazusae because, ho-ly shit, is this terrible. I felt near on shellshocked after reading this, and couldn't understand how the same bloke who created the Lysistrata wrote this thing. Then I remember Plutus and say 'oh, right'.
Having gained their power, the women essentially create a free love commune. All wealth is put into a public fund, so now theft is impossible. Meals are served at one giant table for all, so everyone's equal (except the slaves). Sex is free and open, with the only stipulations being free folk and slaves cannot have sex with each other, and the ugliest citizens must always be erotically served first *Socrates roars approvingly*. The women are, apparently, perfectly fine with shagging the least appealing of the male sex, but Aristophanes gives us a scene from the opposite perspective, where a handsome young man tries to visit his girlfriend and is apprehended by three old women, who insist he must deal with them first, ignore his protests and drag him away to rape him. What the ever Zeus-loving fuck, Aristophanes?
I remember Plutus being very mean spirited, but this play is far worse. The humour is cruder, such as this line about a man with constipation ‘I really think there must be a wild pear obstructing my rectum’, there's lots of talk about fondling buttocks or grabbing privates, and some terrible descriptions of the bodies of old women, with suggestions they should 'stop up their holes'.
This is one of those stories that hates everyone: men are stupid and women are devious. Wikipedia informs me this is less a play about female rule, and more an accusation against the Athenian male elite being both incompetent and effeminate. That might have been his argument, but it does nothing to excuse just how tasteless and cruel this whole mess is.
I happened to read this while drunk and, though I don't reccomend you read the play, I would suggest you get utterly pissed if you do, because it'll make it a hell of a lot easier.
Ok. This play is, eh... Hmm. I'm struggling to know where I should begin. Let's start off with a different Aristophanes' play, the Thesmophoriazusae which is all about the women of Athens hating Euripides' misogynistic plays so much that they decide to kill him. I hoped Euripides replied with some lost Satyr play about the female Athenians reacting to The Ecclesiazusae because, ho-ly shit, is this terrible. I felt near on shellshocked after reading this, and couldn't understand how the same bloke who created the Lysistrata wrote this thing. Then I remember Plutus and say 'oh, right'.
Having gained their power, the women essentially create a free love commune. All wealth is put into a public fund, so now theft is impossible. Meals are served at one giant table for all, so everyone's equal (except the slaves). Sex is free and open, with the only stipulations being free folk and slaves cannot have sex with each other, and the ugliest citizens must always be erotically served first *Socrates roars approvingly*. The women are, apparently, perfectly fine with shagging the least appealing of the male sex, but Aristophanes gives us a scene from the opposite perspective, where a handsome young man tries to visit his girlfriend and is apprehended by three old women, who insist he must deal with them first, ignore his protests and drag him away to rape him. What the ever Zeus-loving fuck, Aristophanes?
I remember Plutus being very mean spirited, but this play is far worse. The humour is cruder, such as this line about a man with constipation ‘I really think there must be a wild pear obstructing my rectum’, there's lots of talk about fondling buttocks or grabbing privates, and some terrible descriptions of the bodies of old women, with suggestions they should 'stop up their holes'.
This is one of those stories that hates everyone: men are stupid and women are devious. Wikipedia informs me this is less a play about female rule, and more an accusation against the Athenian male elite being both incompetent and effeminate. That might have been his argument, but it does nothing to excuse just how tasteless and cruel this whole mess is.
I happened to read this while drunk and, though I don't reccomend you read the play, I would suggest you get utterly pissed if you do, because it'll make it a hell of a lot easier.
October 30, 2020
"Os digo que debemos entregar la ciudad a las mujeres. Después de todo ya en nuestros hogares nos servimos de ellas como administradoras y tesoreras. Yo os voy a enseñar que su modo de ser ellas son mejores que nosotros."
Como estudiante de literatura griega antigua, esta fue una lectura obligada. Las mujeres pudieron engañar a los hombres para hacerse cargo de Atenas y arreglar todas las macanas en la democracia post-guerra.
Como estudiante de literatura griega antigua, esta fue una lectura obligada. Las mujeres pudieron engañar a los hombres para hacerse cargo de Atenas y arreglar todas las macanas en la democracia post-guerra.
September 11, 2024
Lisistrata la Mulan del 392 a.C
October 3, 2020
Si algo demuestra Aristófanes con Les assembleistes es que no sabe dejar títere con cabeza. Su argumento plantea una suerte de sistema comunista planteado por un grupo de mujeres, pero no hace concesiones: las mujeres son tan terribles como los hombres. Su sistema es caótico y lleno de vacíos legales, pero también se establece que los hombres en el poder hacen estragos al interesarse antes por sí mismos que por el país (véase Blèpir). Teniendo en cuenta el contexto festivo en que se enmarcaban las representaciones de la obra, casi parece lógico que no existan los tapujos en una obra que pretende hacer reír mediante la sátira.
El argumento en sí es bastante irregular. Durante la primera mitad sigue una estructura lógica y con un ritmo bien medido para, en la segunda, cortarlo por completo y terminar no tanto con un final abierto como con uno que casi parece incompleto por su falta absoluta de cierre. Cuando están las mujeres, especialmente Praxàgora, en escena, todo funciona bastante bien. Interacciones fáciles de seguir, interrupciones de diálogo constantes para crear humor, insultos a decenas de hombres de la Asamblea... Pero cuando llegan los dos hombres (Home A y Home B), se vuelve un sinsentido sin mucha gracia y termina en un chiste que se alarga demasiadas páginas. En cierto modo, la propia obra parece transmitir el magnetismo de sus mujeres y el sopor que provocan sus hombres, si bien, como he dicho, Aristófanes insultaba a unas y a otros sin distinciones.
Hay que reconocer que Les assembleistes es un libro bastante explícito. Además de hacer veladas (y no tan veladas) referencias sexuales, hablar abiertamente de relaciones hetero y homosexuales, tratar el coito como tema central e incluso establecer un sistema sexual comunista, hay una buena dosis de humor escatológico y hasta genitales mostrados en escena. Personalmente, no me ha hecho mucha gracia (lo grotesco casi nunca lo hace; se me antoja facilón), pero veo que en su época habría sido un bombazo y casi da miedo saber que muchas de sus críticas al sistema político de entonces pueden trasladarse a la actualidad sin apenas cambios. Ya el encargado de traducir el libro, Eduard Mayans Mevel, se encarga de ofrecer unos comentarios quizá demasiado subjetivos en sus notas al pie. Se agradece el tono cercano y coloquial (que se mezcla con el académico), pero no niego que algún comentario me ha hecho arquear una ceja, no por inverosímil, sino por no venir a cuento. Tampoco puedo destacar mucho negativo de su trabajo: la traducción está hecha con mimo, sus notas son muy informativas y se nota que ha habido toda una investigación detrás. Eso sí, la introducción es bastante desafortunada; se queda en la superficie y no explora suficientemente la lectura.
Al final, aunque no haya acabado muy satisfecho con la obra, al César lo que es del César: este Aristófanes estaba un poco loco y no voy a ser yo el que le lleve la contraria. Hay que tener buena mano para saber estrenar una representación ante miles de personas con el objetivo de insultarlas directamente.
El argumento en sí es bastante irregular. Durante la primera mitad sigue una estructura lógica y con un ritmo bien medido para, en la segunda, cortarlo por completo y terminar no tanto con un final abierto como con uno que casi parece incompleto por su falta absoluta de cierre. Cuando están las mujeres, especialmente Praxàgora, en escena, todo funciona bastante bien. Interacciones fáciles de seguir, interrupciones de diálogo constantes para crear humor, insultos a decenas de hombres de la Asamblea... Pero cuando llegan los dos hombres (Home A y Home B), se vuelve un sinsentido sin mucha gracia y termina en un chiste que se alarga demasiadas páginas. En cierto modo, la propia obra parece transmitir el magnetismo de sus mujeres y el sopor que provocan sus hombres, si bien, como he dicho, Aristófanes insultaba a unas y a otros sin distinciones.
Hay que reconocer que Les assembleistes es un libro bastante explícito. Además de hacer veladas (y no tan veladas) referencias sexuales, hablar abiertamente de relaciones hetero y homosexuales, tratar el coito como tema central e incluso establecer un sistema sexual comunista, hay una buena dosis de humor escatológico y hasta genitales mostrados en escena. Personalmente, no me ha hecho mucha gracia (lo grotesco casi nunca lo hace; se me antoja facilón), pero veo que en su época habría sido un bombazo y casi da miedo saber que muchas de sus críticas al sistema político de entonces pueden trasladarse a la actualidad sin apenas cambios. Ya el encargado de traducir el libro, Eduard Mayans Mevel, se encarga de ofrecer unos comentarios quizá demasiado subjetivos en sus notas al pie. Se agradece el tono cercano y coloquial (que se mezcla con el académico), pero no niego que algún comentario me ha hecho arquear una ceja, no por inverosímil, sino por no venir a cuento. Tampoco puedo destacar mucho negativo de su trabajo: la traducción está hecha con mimo, sus notas son muy informativas y se nota que ha habido toda una investigación detrás. Eso sí, la introducción es bastante desafortunada; se queda en la superficie y no explora suficientemente la lectura.
Al final, aunque no haya acabado muy satisfecho con la obra, al César lo que es del César: este Aristófanes estaba un poco loco y no voy a ser yo el que le lleve la contraria. Hay que tener buena mano para saber estrenar una representación ante miles de personas con el objetivo de insultarlas directamente.
June 29, 2015
2500 χρονια μετα, ο εισηγητης και διδασκαλος της σατιρας Αριστοφανης, τρομακτικά επικαιρος με οξυδερκή ματιά στον τροπο σκεψης των Ελληνων: την συμφεροντολογια, την λαμογιά, την πονηριά.
Τιποτα δεν φαινεται να εχει αλλαξει στην Ελλαδα του 21ου αιωνα.
Ενα εργο που θα πρεπε καθε ελληνας να διαβασει για να φτασει λιγο πιο κοντα στο συλλογικο -ή εθνικο "γνωθι σαυτον"
"Κι ο φταιχτης σ ολα τουτα εισαι εσυ λαε.
Καθένας τσιμπολογωντας το δημοσιο χρημα
κοιταζει το συμφερον του μοναχα,
κι η πατριδα ας κουτσαινει στον κατηφορο" (- Αποδοση Κωστα Βαρναλη)
Τιποτα δεν φαινεται να εχει αλλαξει στην Ελλαδα του 21ου αιωνα.
Ενα εργο που θα πρεπε καθε ελληνας να διαβασει για να φτασει λιγο πιο κοντα στο συλλογικο -ή εθνικο "γνωθι σαυτον"
"Κι ο φταιχτης σ ολα τουτα εισαι εσυ λαε.
Καθένας τσιμπολογωντας το δημοσιο χρημα
κοιταζει το συμφερον του μοναχα,
κι η πατριδα ας κουτσαινει στον κατηφορο" (- Αποδοση Κωστα Βαρναλη)
February 12, 2019
آتن در سال 391 قبل از میلاد، تاریخ اجرای نمایشنامه زنان در اکلزیا، در یکی از فاجعه بار ترین دوران تاریخ باستان خود قرار داشت. فقر و بیکاری و سیاستمداران فاسد آتن را در بر گرفته بودند و در پایان جنگ سی ساله فرسایشی بین آتن و اسپارتا و صلح موقت بین دو حکومت، با حمایت پادشاهی هخامنشی (ما!!!) جنگ دیگری بین این دو در گرفت که برای آتن موجب شکست های بسیار و از دست رفتن بخش اعظم ناوگان جنگی آنها شد.
در این شرایط، آریستوفانس ناامید از هر ترفند سیاسی و دموکراتیک، نا امید از هر سیاستمدار پوپولیست یا تیرانیست و به طور خلاصه ناامید از مردان ، از سر ناچاری، به سیاستی روی می آورد که در آتن آن دوره خنده دار و غیر ممکن و آوانگارد به شمار می رفت: محول کردن کامل حاکمیت به زنان و برابری کامل حقوق جنسیتی، تقسیم مساوی سرمایه بین طبقات مختلف جامعه، مزرعه داری و برداشت محصول اشتراکی، آزادی کامل جنسی و لغو قوانین ازدواج.
لازم به دکر است که آریستوفانس نه یک متفکر پیشرو بود، نه کمونیست(!) و نه فعال حقوق زنان، تمامی این روش ها علی رغم اینکه در دنیای امروز ما تاریخ به شمار می آیند، در آتن دو هزار و پانصد سل پیش، شوخی های خنده داری به منظور تمسخر حک��مت و فرهنگی در حال نابودی بودند و محکوم به شکست حتمی.
در این شرایط، آریستوفانس ناامید از هر ترفند سیاسی و دموکراتیک، نا امید از هر سیاستمدار پوپولیست یا تیرانیست و به طور خلاصه ناامید از مردان ، از سر ناچاری، به سیاستی روی می آورد که در آتن آن دوره خنده دار و غیر ممکن و آوانگارد به شمار می رفت: محول کردن کامل حاکمیت به زنان و برابری کامل حقوق جنسیتی، تقسیم مساوی سرمایه بین طبقات مختلف جامعه، مزرعه داری و برداشت محصول اشتراکی، آزادی کامل جنسی و لغو قوانین ازدواج.
لازم به دکر است که آریستوفانس نه یک متفکر پیشرو بود، نه کمونیست(!) و نه فعال حقوق زنان، تمامی این روش ها علی رغم اینکه در دنیای امروز ما تاریخ به شمار می آیند، در آتن دو هزار و پانصد سل پیش، شوخی های خنده داری به منظور تمسخر حک��مت و فرهنگی در حال نابودی بودند و محکوم به شکست حتمی.
November 6, 2019
"The Assembly of Women," or, "Ecclesiazusae," reminded me very strongly of my favorite Aristophanes, "Lysistrata." If you loved that play as much as I did, you will enjoy this one as well.
The first scene starts off with a group of wives in Ancient Athens stealing their husband's clothes and setting off to speak at the male-only Assembly. Their novel ideas, which concern land ownership, equality, and even sex, are met with a mixture of both outraged indignation and curious popularity.
This play was very fun, and I loved the spirited, mischievously intelligent women. I cannot leave out their husbands - exaggeratedly slow witted, they were hilarious.
Aristophanes is perhaps the world's first champion of women's rights, and he puts his ideas into comedy very well.
The first scene starts off with a group of wives in Ancient Athens stealing their husband's clothes and setting off to speak at the male-only Assembly. Their novel ideas, which concern land ownership, equality, and even sex, are met with a mixture of both outraged indignation and curious popularity.
This play was very fun, and I loved the spirited, mischievously intelligent women. I cannot leave out their husbands - exaggeratedly slow witted, they were hilarious.
Aristophanes is perhaps the world's first champion of women's rights, and he puts his ideas into comedy very well.
July 5, 2014
How very unsurprising that women at the first chance they get implement big nanny government.
March 8, 2022
Una satira donde las mujeres en Athenas logran llegar al poder y establecen una especie de sistema comunista en lo economico y en lo sexual, si uno se mete en el contexto de la epoca es inmensamente probable que lo que quizo hacer Aristofanes es una burla explicita hacia ellas y tambien explicar que pueden gobernar de una manera igual de caotica segun su obra.
March 19, 2024
Nou ja, tenminste heeft het λοπαδοτεμαχοσελαχογαλεοκρανιολειψανοδριμυποτριμματοσιλφιοκαραβομελιτοκατακεχυμενοκιχλεπικοσσυφοφαττοπεριστεραλεκτρυονοπτοκεφαλλιοκιγκλοπελειολαγῳοσιραιοβαφητραγανοπτερύγων
December 12, 2024
Leer esto con el audiolibro en x2 de un señor argentino muy teatrero ha SIDO UNA EXPERIENCIA
September 25, 2020
Puanım 5/5 (%88/100)
Komedinin Babası olarak çağrılan Aristophanes bir oyununda daha döneminin sorunlarıyla dalga geçiyor. Kitap Lysistrata gibi kadınların şehrin yönetimini ele geçirmesini konu ediniyor. Tekrardan bir kadını ana karakter yapmasıyla aslında döneminde yazılan diğer türden eserlerle ve yapısıyla da dalga geçiyor Aristophanes. (Tragedya o dönemin popüler türü ve tragedyalarda kadınlar genelde yer almaz, alırsa da çok önemsiz ufak rollerde yer alır.)
Kitabın ana karakteri Praksagora diğer kadınları topluyor ve erkek kılığında bir meclis oluşturuyor. Bu meclis sayesinde kadınların istediği bütün kararları alıyorlar. Şehrin erkekleri de bu absürt kararlara uymak zorunda kalıyor. Kararların hepsinden bahsetmem mümkün değil fakat bu kararlar aslında çok önemli bir özellik taşıyor.
Alınan kararlar Marksist düşüncelere aşırı benziyor. Tabi bu eserin 392 gibi bir yılda sahnelendiğini düşünürsek Marksist düşüncelerin aslında buradan geldiğini kabul edebiliriz. Kararların genel özelliği şu şekilde; bütün yiyecek, içecek, önemli mücevherler vb. devlete verilecek ve devlet bunu uygun bir şekilde herkese eşit olarak dağıtacak. Bu şekilde hırsızlık, eşitsizlik, sınıf sistemi gibi şeyler ortadan kalkmış olacak. Tabi ki kararlar sadece bunlardan ibaret değil. Kadınlar yönetimi ele geçirdiği için şöyle kararlar da var: bir erkek genç bir kızla yatmadan önce yaşlı bir kadını tatmin etmek zorundadır.
Kitap iki parçadan oluşuyor diyebiliriz. İlk kısım Praksagora'nın kararları açıkladığı kısım, ikincisi ise bu kararlardan sonra şehrin hali. Komedi kısmı aslında kitabın ikinci kısmında ortaya çıkıyor. Bu kısımda aşırı zekice yazılmış, isimlerle yapılan sözcük oyunlarından tutun da cinsel şakalara kadar birçok şey yer alıyor. (O zamanın Yunanistan'ını düşünürsek bunlar çok büyük yenilikler. Ayrıca bir o kadar da cesur.)
Kitabı çok beğendim gerçekten. Okuduğum en iyi çevirilerden olabilir. Espriler ve şakalar çeviri olmasına rağmen orijinalı gibi tat veriyor. Kitabı okurken gerçekten gülümseyip durdum.
Komedinin Babası olarak çağrılan Aristophanes bir oyununda daha döneminin sorunlarıyla dalga geçiyor. Kitap Lysistrata gibi kadınların şehrin yönetimini ele geçirmesini konu ediniyor. Tekrardan bir kadını ana karakter yapmasıyla aslında döneminde yazılan diğer türden eserlerle ve yapısıyla da dalga geçiyor Aristophanes. (Tragedya o dönemin popüler türü ve tragedyalarda kadınlar genelde yer almaz, alırsa da çok önemsiz ufak rollerde yer alır.)
Kitabın ana karakteri Praksagora diğer kadınları topluyor ve erkek kılığında bir meclis oluşturuyor. Bu meclis sayesinde kadınların istediği bütün kararları alıyorlar. Şehrin erkekleri de bu absürt kararlara uymak zorunda kalıyor. Kararların hepsinden bahsetmem mümkün değil fakat bu kararlar aslında çok önemli bir özellik taşıyor.
Alınan kararlar Marksist düşüncelere aşırı benziyor. Tabi bu eserin 392 gibi bir yılda sahnelendiğini düşünürsek Marksist düşüncelerin aslında buradan geldiğini kabul edebiliriz. Kararların genel özelliği şu şekilde; bütün yiyecek, içecek, önemli mücevherler vb. devlete verilecek ve devlet bunu uygun bir şekilde herkese eşit olarak dağıtacak. Bu şekilde hırsızlık, eşitsizlik, sınıf sistemi gibi şeyler ortadan kalkmış olacak. Tabi ki kararlar sadece bunlardan ibaret değil. Kadınlar yönetimi ele geçirdiği için şöyle kararlar da var: bir erkek genç bir kızla yatmadan önce yaşlı bir kadını tatmin etmek zorundadır.
Kitap iki parçadan oluşuyor diyebiliriz. İlk kısım Praksagora'nın kararları açıkladığı kısım, ikincisi ise bu kararlardan sonra şehrin hali. Komedi kısmı aslında kitabın ikinci kısmında ortaya çıkıyor. Bu kısımda aşırı zekice yazılmış, isimlerle yapılan sözcük oyunlarından tutun da cinsel şakalara kadar birçok şey yer alıyor. (O zamanın Yunanistan'ını düşünürsek bunlar çok büyük yenilikler. Ayrıca bir o kadar da cesur.)
Kitabı çok beğendim gerçekten. Okuduğum en iyi çevirilerden olabilir. Espriler ve şakalar çeviri olmasına rağmen orijinalı gibi tat veriyor. Kitabı okurken gerçekten gülümseyip durdum.
November 5, 2022
A learned defense of the rights of the ugly.
Read
January 23, 2023Lmao Aristophanes
July 29, 2023
Aparecen en escena mujeres vestidas de hombres para participar en la asamblea y dar voz que las mujeres gobiernan la ciudad, al estar de acuerdo la mayoría de los “zapateros”, y es lo que se hace.
Así es, sin contexto ni fundamentos es lo que dicta la ley al tratarse de una comedia, bastante divertida la verdad, que los tres temas fundamentales que aparecen y es, prácticamente, subrayado hasta no más poder, es decir que ocupan varias páginas, es: “cagar”, “que gobiernan las mujeres”, “jovenes que tengan sexo con la vieja más fea”.
Ante la época que fue escrita y que aparecen datos que albergan en nuestro tiempo hoy en día, como la paga de asistir a la asamblea aludiendo de lo que pasa ahora con los políticos; como así también el hincapié histórico de la época de Grecia para dar uso de conocimiento de que las mujeres eran seres pálidos —no salían mucho de casa como los hombres que se tostaban en el sol por trabajar y demases acciones—, que solo atendían o administraban que haceres del hogar, crianzas de sus hijos, y la reproducción sexual, aunque sin embargo si participaban muchísimo en los ritos religiosos por lo que es allí que obtaban —mediante un sorteo— ser sacerdoista libres, es decir que no necesitaban la presencia de un hombre en si, o sea un padre, hermano, esposo o tutor.
Por lo que está obra da una vuelta total de tuerca ante la sociedad, haciéndonos ver qué tanto con el mandato con los varones como de las mujeres mucho no cambia la cosa, ambos son totalmente terribles ante la ley que imponen.
Seguramente Aristófanes cuando espuso la obra no esperaba más allá de eso, es decir un cambio de verdad, por lo quedó como una comedia que crítica varios casos de política, defiende a las mujeres como al mismo tiempo se burla de ellas y que mucho no se podía opinar sino se cumplía con la ley.
Así es, sin contexto ni fundamentos es lo que dicta la ley al tratarse de una comedia, bastante divertida la verdad, que los tres temas fundamentales que aparecen y es, prácticamente, subrayado hasta no más poder, es decir que ocupan varias páginas, es: “cagar”, “que gobiernan las mujeres”, “jovenes que tengan sexo con la vieja más fea”.
Ante la época que fue escrita y que aparecen datos que albergan en nuestro tiempo hoy en día, como la paga de asistir a la asamblea aludiendo de lo que pasa ahora con los políticos; como así también el hincapié histórico de la época de Grecia para dar uso de conocimiento de que las mujeres eran seres pálidos —no salían mucho de casa como los hombres que se tostaban en el sol por trabajar y demases acciones—, que solo atendían o administraban que haceres del hogar, crianzas de sus hijos, y la reproducción sexual, aunque sin embargo si participaban muchísimo en los ritos religiosos por lo que es allí que obtaban —mediante un sorteo— ser sacerdoista libres, es decir que no necesitaban la presencia de un hombre en si, o sea un padre, hermano, esposo o tutor.
Por lo que está obra da una vuelta total de tuerca ante la sociedad, haciéndonos ver qué tanto con el mandato con los varones como de las mujeres mucho no cambia la cosa, ambos son totalmente terribles ante la ley que imponen.
Seguramente Aristófanes cuando espuso la obra no esperaba más allá de eso, es decir un cambio de verdad, por lo quedó como una comedia que crítica varios casos de política, defiende a las mujeres como al mismo tiempo se burla de ellas y que mucho no se podía opinar sino se cumplía con la ley.
December 1, 2023
Sometimes I forget history and think “wow people are entertained by such degenerate humour nowadays.” And then I read an Aristophanes play and remember “lol nah we’ve been laughing at the same things for thousands of years.”
Bawdy as they may be, Aristophanes’ plays are also chock-full of uncomfortable political truths, and this one is no exception. The underlying premise is that democracy inevitably leads to the rule of the inferior over the superior, which degrades both. Tocqueville said the same thing millennia later, and looking at the current state of America, it’s hard to argue with.
Bawdy as they may be, Aristophanes’ plays are also chock-full of uncomfortable political truths, and this one is no exception. The underlying premise is that democracy inevitably leads to the rule of the inferior over the superior, which degrades both. Tocqueville said the same thing millennia later, and looking at the current state of America, it’s hard to argue with.
January 1, 2025
3.5*
Comme quoi les Grecs étaient réellement plus avancés que nous, puisqu’Aristophane, dans une comédie grecque, met de l’avant le féminisme et le droit des femmes.
C’était drôle et vulgaire, mon genre d’humour.
Mais comme n’importe quelle pièce de l’époque, il y avait beaucoup trop de trou dans l’histoire et des formulations à se casser le ciboulot.
Je crois tout de même que ça rentre dans les classiques et je suis contente de l’avoir lu.
Comme quoi les Grecs étaient réellement plus avancés que nous, puisqu’Aristophane, dans une comédie grecque, met de l’avant le féminisme et le droit des femmes.
C’était drôle et vulgaire, mon genre d’humour.
Mais comme n’importe quelle pièce de l’époque, il y avait beaucoup trop de trou dans l’histoire et des formulations à se casser le ciboulot.
Je crois tout de même que ça rentre dans les classiques et je suis contente de l’avoir lu.
January 29, 2024
Sehr sehr lustig, aber meine Übersetzung war nicht die beste (leider! Ich habe diese Komödie geliebt).
August 18, 2021
Ενδιαφερον το ότι απορούν οι σχολιαστές πως γίνεται ο Αριστοφάνης να ήξερε την ουσία της πλατωνικης πολιτείας και να την διακωμωδουσε δέκα χρόνια πριν κυκλοφορήσει.
December 30, 2020
“As feias e mal acabadas ficarão ao lado das mais bonitas, e quem quiser as bonitonas terá que satisfazer primeiro as feiosas”
February 1, 2023
Meget sjov
October 28, 2014
The Ecclesiazusae is another women-centric play by Aristophanes that focuses on women who want to change their domestic roles and experience being men... so they take their husbands' clothes and grow facial hair to become more like men. This play is a lot like Lysistrata in many senses- the plot is similar, the characters are similar, and the message being put across is similar. I think I may have liked this one a little bit more, but I think that is only marginal. Both are great, I just find it funny that this group of women would willingly start growing beards and leg hair.
I really enjoy plays like this because they feel so modern, yet so accurate for the time. In many ways, Aristophanes seemed to be very much ahead of his time, byt not to a degree which inhibited his ability to do well in competitions at the time. In short, I really see him as more than a funny comedian, but as a very scathing thinker as well. Plays that attack a patriarchy that was in place at the time only seem to come from Aristophanes most of the time, which really brings his intellectuality into light.
I really enjoy plays like this because they feel so modern, yet so accurate for the time. In many ways, Aristophanes seemed to be very much ahead of his time, byt not to a degree which inhibited his ability to do well in competitions at the time. In short, I really see him as more than a funny comedian, but as a very scathing thinker as well. Plays that attack a patriarchy that was in place at the time only seem to come from Aristophanes most of the time, which really brings his intellectuality into light.
February 10, 2017
It really suprised me that this was written before Plato's Republic 'couse it looks like a really fitting parody of it, some ideas presented are in fact the same (shared property, everyone could be your dad so do not hit older man...) and Proxagora really reminds me of Socrates (much more than Socrates from Clouds ).
It's marvelous how he mixes dealing with serious topics, satirizing more things at once, suprisingly good arguments with very funny comedy. Although response to some crisis they have back then it really interests even contemporary reader. It could have less jokes about shiting but otherwise it's just great.
Read it, especially if you read (at least part) of Republic and felt that it's odd.
It's marvelous how he mixes dealing with serious topics, satirizing more things at once, suprisingly good arguments with very funny comedy. Although response to some crisis they have back then it really interests even contemporary reader. It could have less jokes about shiting but otherwise it's just great.
Read it, especially if you read (at least part) of Republic and felt that it's odd.
January 5, 2016
An interesting concept that Aristophanes brings up, being one of the oldest representations of a Communist society I've seen. And while it pokes fun at this society where everyone receives a commonwealth, it also inadvertently pokes fun at women ruling this society, which is a big weakness for Ecclesiazusae. The problem I've seen with Aristophanes' comedies involving politics and women is that you could see him supporting women's rights, but just as easily see him making fun of it. And between this play and Lysistrata, I'd have to say Lysistrata is the more clever and comedic of the two plays.
February 21, 2016
Esos griegos...
July 27, 2020
De nuevo, vengo aquí a decir que Aristófanes es un genio.
November 13, 2022
labai daug poop jokes
April 27, 2023
Absolutely absurd, obnoxiously obscene, and simply silly.
Of the four Aristophanes plays I’ve read, this was the least enjoyable. It gets a bonus star for being 2400 yrs old.
Of the four Aristophanes plays I’ve read, this was the least enjoyable. It gets a bonus star for being 2400 yrs old.
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