Warwick's Reviews > In the Shadow of Young Girls in Flower
In the Shadow of Young Girls in Flower
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Warwick's review
bookshelves: abandoned
Mar 20, 2014
bookshelves: abandoned
Read 2 times. Last read April 13, 2023 to May 6, 2023.
The only book I've ever abandoned after the first sentence.
And what a sentence! But I'll come back to that. Let me first hasten to defend myself, to present my credentials, because I realise that Proust is held in such high esteem as to be almost beyond criticism – not in the real world of course, that would be ridiculous, but on Goodreads certainly. Of the 29 Goodreads friends who have rated this, 25 give it five stars, three give it four stars – one (the only French reader) gives it three. That is an astonishingly high proportion of full marks.
So my apologies to all of you. I plead only the right to a subjective opinion, one that has not been arrived at trivially. My history with Proust is as follows. I read Swann's Way very slowly over a period of several weeks, a reading experience memorable mainly for the fact that my girlfriend kept waking me up because I had dozed off halfway through a sentence. (Reading it in bed was probably a mistake.) There was a lot I liked about it, but I admit I didn't quite grasp what all the fuss was about. I thought it insightful in parts, trite in others. It was also plotless and self-indulgent, but those things don't bother me on their own.
The real problem was the prose style.
For someone revered as a stylist, Proust to me seemed irritating at best, at worst barely readable. I am prepared to accept that this is my problem. In my notebook from that year I divided the page into two columns headed ‘Awesomeness’ and ‘Awkwardness’ to try and clarify in my mind the different reactions I was getting to his sentences. But I gradually got fixated on the second category. Phrases like
strike me as being not just recondite, but fundamentally unsound – in English, and I stress that caveat because I'm aware that there may be a translation issue going on. This kind of construction plays better in French, and although I do read French, I happened to read Proust in translation just because I have a Folio Society set of the Moncrieff/Kilmartin/Enright version. If you're going to tell me that this all flows more prettily in the original, I'm prepared to believe you. I think.
After I finished Swann's Way, my dubious reaction to it niggled at me. Surely I was missing something? As a rule I'm not someone who likes to follow popular opinion, but when so many people I respect seem to love this writer, maybe I have somehow failed to spot his essential charm…? So one day, several months later, I got the second volume down, poured myself a drink, sat in the garden and started reading. It opens:
I calmly closed the book again, got up, went inside and put it back on the shelf, where it has remained. (I went back and finished my drink.)
I love the audacity of this sentence. That is the only thing I love about it, though. I feel that every native speaker who reads it must have the same jarring sense of dislocation when they reach the words ‘my father’, because it's natural when reading it to assume that ‘My mother’ is the subject of the sentence, albeit immediately diverted by two long subordinate clauses. But eventually (on the third scan, in my case) it dawns that the only verb governed by ‘my mother’ is ‘having expressed’, and that the main clause hasn't even started until you get to his father. So what Proust has done here is to postpone the grammatical subject of his sentence until fifty-four words in. For the opening sentence of a novel! (And it introduces five separate characters!)
This is an unusual construction, to say the least. X having done Y, A did B is unremarkable; but introducing a subordinate clause set off by commas immediately after X leaves you hanging on, open-mouthed, for a finitive verb, and hence obscures the meaning. I understand that there are people who adore this style of writing and find it charming or delicate. I don't though, I find it deeply unfriendly. More than that, I find it somehow…creepy.
This is not because of the opacity itself. Because I'm a journalist, and because I like thinking about the mechanics of sentence structure, some friends have accused me of being overly harsh on writers who do not go for clarity and efficiency at all times. I do respect those qualities, but I deny the charge. I love complicated baroque prose styles, and there are plenty of writers who use Proustian effects in ways that move and excite me – Henry James, Thomas Pynchon, oh there's dozens really. It's really just Proust himself that leaves me cold. It's something to do with the intricate formal correctness of it – as though he's saying, ‘Claim to be confused by this if you must; I can assure you it adheres to all the rules.’ There is an over-earnest quality, a sickly intricacy, to his sentences. They seem to be made all of elbows.
The way he expresses himself is somehow true to the letter of language, without being true to its spirit. (At least in translation.)
So that's my experience of him. I'm sorry, but I am just constitutionally unable to get past the extreme ponderousness of expression to enjoy his flashes of insight. That's not to say that I've given up on Marcel, and when I have some more time I hope to try him again in French. But for now at least…he's staying on the shelf.
And what a sentence! But I'll come back to that. Let me first hasten to defend myself, to present my credentials, because I realise that Proust is held in such high esteem as to be almost beyond criticism – not in the real world of course, that would be ridiculous, but on Goodreads certainly. Of the 29 Goodreads friends who have rated this, 25 give it five stars, three give it four stars – one (the only French reader) gives it three. That is an astonishingly high proportion of full marks.
So my apologies to all of you. I plead only the right to a subjective opinion, one that has not been arrived at trivially. My history with Proust is as follows. I read Swann's Way very slowly over a period of several weeks, a reading experience memorable mainly for the fact that my girlfriend kept waking me up because I had dozed off halfway through a sentence. (Reading it in bed was probably a mistake.) There was a lot I liked about it, but I admit I didn't quite grasp what all the fuss was about. I thought it insightful in parts, trite in others. It was also plotless and self-indulgent, but those things don't bother me on their own.
The real problem was the prose style.
For someone revered as a stylist, Proust to me seemed irritating at best, at worst barely readable. I am prepared to accept that this is my problem. In my notebook from that year I divided the page into two columns headed ‘Awesomeness’ and ‘Awkwardness’ to try and clarify in my mind the different reactions I was getting to his sentences. But I gradually got fixated on the second category. Phrases like
I was well aware that I had placed myself in a position than which none could be counted upon to involve me in graver consequences at my parents' hands
strike me as being not just recondite, but fundamentally unsound – in English, and I stress that caveat because I'm aware that there may be a translation issue going on. This kind of construction plays better in French, and although I do read French, I happened to read Proust in translation just because I have a Folio Society set of the Moncrieff/Kilmartin/Enright version. If you're going to tell me that this all flows more prettily in the original, I'm prepared to believe you. I think.
After I finished Swann's Way, my dubious reaction to it niggled at me. Surely I was missing something? As a rule I'm not someone who likes to follow popular opinion, but when so many people I respect seem to love this writer, maybe I have somehow failed to spot his essential charm…? So one day, several months later, I got the second volume down, poured myself a drink, sat in the garden and started reading. It opens:
My mother, when it was a question of our having M. de Norpois to dinner for the first time, having expressed her regret that Professor Cottard was away from home and that she herself had quite ceased to see anything of Swann, since either of these might have helped to entertain the ex-Ambassador, my father replied that so eminent a guest, so distinguished a man of science as Cottard could never be out of place at a dinner-table, but that Swann, with his ostentation, his habit of crying aloud from the house-tops the name of everyone he knew, however slightly, was a vulgar show-off whom the Marquis de Norpois would be sure to dismiss as – to use his own epithet – a ‘pestilent’ fellow.
I calmly closed the book again, got up, went inside and put it back on the shelf, where it has remained. (I went back and finished my drink.)
I love the audacity of this sentence. That is the only thing I love about it, though. I feel that every native speaker who reads it must have the same jarring sense of dislocation when they reach the words ‘my father’, because it's natural when reading it to assume that ‘My mother’ is the subject of the sentence, albeit immediately diverted by two long subordinate clauses. But eventually (on the third scan, in my case) it dawns that the only verb governed by ‘my mother’ is ‘having expressed’, and that the main clause hasn't even started until you get to his father. So what Proust has done here is to postpone the grammatical subject of his sentence until fifty-four words in. For the opening sentence of a novel! (And it introduces five separate characters!)
This is an unusual construction, to say the least. X having done Y, A did B is unremarkable; but introducing a subordinate clause set off by commas immediately after X leaves you hanging on, open-mouthed, for a finitive verb, and hence obscures the meaning. I understand that there are people who adore this style of writing and find it charming or delicate. I don't though, I find it deeply unfriendly. More than that, I find it somehow…creepy.
This is not because of the opacity itself. Because I'm a journalist, and because I like thinking about the mechanics of sentence structure, some friends have accused me of being overly harsh on writers who do not go for clarity and efficiency at all times. I do respect those qualities, but I deny the charge. I love complicated baroque prose styles, and there are plenty of writers who use Proustian effects in ways that move and excite me – Henry James, Thomas Pynchon, oh there's dozens really. It's really just Proust himself that leaves me cold. It's something to do with the intricate formal correctness of it – as though he's saying, ‘Claim to be confused by this if you must; I can assure you it adheres to all the rules.’ There is an over-earnest quality, a sickly intricacy, to his sentences. They seem to be made all of elbows.
The way he expresses himself is somehow true to the letter of language, without being true to its spirit. (At least in translation.)
So that's my experience of him. I'm sorry, but I am just constitutionally unable to get past the extreme ponderousness of expression to enjoy his flashes of insight. That's not to say that I've given up on Marcel, and when I have some more time I hope to try him again in French. But for now at least…he's staying on the shelf.
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Comments Showing 1-50 of 81 (81 new)
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Garima
(last edited Mar 20, 2014 06:10PM)
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Mar 20, 2014 06:09PM
Enjoyable review! I had the same initial reaction to Swann's Way but things got alright for me during the third half.
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Hmmm, having minutely compared the cited translation with the original and pondered the differences carefully, if subjectively, I am duly bound to constate that the translators did Proust's sentence justice. Nonetheless, and this may be due to the fact that French is not my mother tongue, I find that French can support large structures of subordinate clauses rather better than can English. Though I am not a particular proponent of Proust, it is not due to his heavily adorned sentences that I have not yet read all seven volumes. Truly I say unto you, read the original and jettison the translation. :)
Thank you Garima!
Steve, I think you're right, and I think that's exactly the problem with translating him into English. Maybe I will feel differently about the original text, although I am loth to take this line because in general I am not one of those people who believes that literary style is "untranslatable".
Steve, I think you're right, and I think that's exactly the problem with translating him into English. Maybe I will feel differently about the original text, although I am loth to take this line because in general I am not one of those people who believes that literary style is "untranslatable".
Warwick, you've raised lots of issues in this thoughtful and well-written piece!
I didn't read the English version so I can't really comment on the quality of the translation. I agree that the short sentence from Volume I you quoted does sound very awkward. I think I'd give up on an author too if I came across many such sentences.
The second one you quoted, the beginning of the second book, doesn't bother me as much as it bothers you. I've just read it in French and it works perfectly, but I agree it is not a typical first sentence of a novel. That may be part of the problem. This section in the French edition is really just another chapter called Autour de Mme Swann, which follows on from the previous chapter, Nom de Pays: le Nom, the one which ended Volume I. Proust didn't plan to break up his chapters into volumes originally - the publishers imposed breaks instead. So, I think it's a pity to judge that sentence as the first sentence of a stand-alone novel.
This book was not my favourite of the seven, although I liked the second part of it a lot better. I see that I was still giving stars at that point and gave it three.
There are other issues here that I'll come back to later if I get time..
I didn't read the English version so I can't really comment on the quality of the translation. I agree that the short sentence from Volume I you quoted does sound very awkward. I think I'd give up on an author too if I came across many such sentences.
The second one you quoted, the beginning of the second book, doesn't bother me as much as it bothers you. I've just read it in French and it works perfectly, but I agree it is not a typical first sentence of a novel. That may be part of the problem. This section in the French edition is really just another chapter called Autour de Mme Swann, which follows on from the previous chapter, Nom de Pays: le Nom, the one which ended Volume I. Proust didn't plan to break up his chapters into volumes originally - the publishers imposed breaks instead. So, I think it's a pity to judge that sentence as the first sentence of a stand-alone novel.
This book was not my favourite of the seven, although I liked the second part of it a lot better. I see that I was still giving stars at that point and gave it three.
There are other issues here that I'll come back to later if I get time..
Aw, thanks for that thoughtful response Fio.
Of course it is very unfair to judge a book on a single sentence! I think what I was getting at with that story was that the opening just brought back all my worst memories of reading the first volume – it kind of reminded me of why his style disagreed with me. As you say, French is much more accepting of these constructions than English is.
In fact there was a lot about Swann's Way that I liked too, but I left it out of this review for the sake of not diluting my argument, which is basically a big complaint!
Of course it is very unfair to judge a book on a single sentence! I think what I was getting at with that story was that the opening just brought back all my worst memories of reading the first volume – it kind of reminded me of why his style disagreed with me. As you say, French is much more accepting of these constructions than English is.
In fact there was a lot about Swann's Way that I liked too, but I left it out of this review for the sake of not diluting my argument, which is basically a big complaint!
Warwick wrote: "I think what I was getting at with that story was that the opening just brought back all my worst memories of reading the first volume – it kind of reminded me of why his style disagreed with me."
Yes, style seems to be the main issue you have with Proust, that and a general antipathy to the idea of Proust, which I'm presuming comes from your experience with his style. This issue arises from a false base, since your experience with him is indirect; what you read is not his writing, it is not his style. I know you are aware that you should read him in French so I won't labour the point. Instead, I'll think more on his style and how to argue in support of it - it's not enough to say that it is beautiful...
Yes, style seems to be the main issue you have with Proust, that and a general antipathy to the idea of Proust, which I'm presuming comes from your experience with his style. This issue arises from a false base, since your experience with him is indirect; what you read is not his writing, it is not his style. I know you are aware that you should read him in French so I won't labour the point. Instead, I'll think more on his style and how to argue in support of it - it's not enough to say that it is beautiful...
Thanks Praj.
Fio: well, perhaps. I am reluctant to accept that writers need to be read in the original to be properly understood or appreciated; I mean there is a deep linguistic interest for me there, but stylistically I'm not sure. Have you read Miss Herbert, by the way? It's a very interesting book on this subject of translating literary style.
Fio: well, perhaps. I am reluctant to accept that writers need to be read in the original to be properly understood or appreciated; I mean there is a deep linguistic interest for me there, but stylistically I'm not sure. Have you read Miss Herbert, by the way? It's a very interesting book on this subject of translating literary style.
I'll take a look at that link, Warwick. In the meantime, a few further thoughts on style:
I have not read any secondary sources on Proust so anything I have to say is simply a personal reaction to his writing. I think he probably had a unique style, even in French and among his contemporaries. That may perhaps explain why it is so difficult to translate his work - I think various translators have admitted this difficulty. He read a lot of XVI and XVII century essayists and his writing probably reflects their style quite a bit. But he seems to have developed his own inimitable rhythms, via the use of increasing numbers of subordinate clauses, and it is those rhythms which, once the reader has learned their pattern, make reading his sentences so satisfying and so smooth. I've seen parallels drawn between the rhythms of his breathing and that of his sentences; whatever the reason, they worked for me. Half way through the first book, I had a sudden realisation of having finally learned how to read him.
Apart from the rhythms of his sentences, there is the power of his images and metaphors; I was sometimes unsure if I was reading a text or looking at a visual representation. Some of the descriptions remain in my memory as pictures rather than as words.
I have not read any secondary sources on Proust so anything I have to say is simply a personal reaction to his writing. I think he probably had a unique style, even in French and among his contemporaries. That may perhaps explain why it is so difficult to translate his work - I think various translators have admitted this difficulty. He read a lot of XVI and XVII century essayists and his writing probably reflects their style quite a bit. But he seems to have developed his own inimitable rhythms, via the use of increasing numbers of subordinate clauses, and it is those rhythms which, once the reader has learned their pattern, make reading his sentences so satisfying and so smooth. I've seen parallels drawn between the rhythms of his breathing and that of his sentences; whatever the reason, they worked for me. Half way through the first book, I had a sudden realisation of having finally learned how to read him.
Apart from the rhythms of his sentences, there is the power of his images and metaphors; I was sometimes unsure if I was reading a text or looking at a visual representation. Some of the descriptions remain in my memory as pictures rather than as words.
Yeah, I loved reading you on Proust, and indeed his many other admirers. You explain yourself perfectly; but in the end you all get something from him that I apparently don't.
Ha. I'm learning German right now (having moved to Zurich) so I can well understand what you mean. (This makes me curious to know more about German translations of Proust…)
Warwick wrote: " but in the end you all get something from him that I apparently don't."
Now you've forced me to say what I resisted saying: Bougre (a popular swear word in Proust's day)!
Why are you waiting? Read him in French - and no more crazy talk of attempting to read him in German!
Now you've forced me to say what I resisted saying: Bougre (a popular swear word in Proust's day)!
Why are you waiting? Read him in French - and no more crazy talk of attempting to read him in German!
Warwick wrote: "All right, I'll do it just to shut you up. Next year, promise!"
No, don't promise. I'm not putting any pressure on, seriously.
But someday, when you've lots of leisure time, open Combray and see what happens. I think you'll surprise yourself and stay wide awake..
No, don't promise. I'm not putting any pressure on, seriously.
But someday, when you've lots of leisure time, open Combray and see what happens. I think you'll surprise yourself and stay wide awake..
I have Proust (in the Moncrieff/Kilmartin/Enright translation, modern library edition) on my reading list for 2014 and I have been half dreading, half wishing to jump into it. Your eloquent review urges me to test myself and see what I can make of the ISOLT series. I certainly found those quoted sentences somehow forced and unnatural, but I am hoping to get the flow of it once I get started. Thanks for the tip by the way, I will avoid reading Proust in bed! :)
Coming in in support of Fi!
I've had the odd experience of reading some of Proust in German. Since I already had it in French and then had to get it in German for a seminar I went to, it seemed ridiculous to buy an English translation as well. Occasionally when reading the French, it would be the odd word that I'd stumble over rather than the fact that I had lost track of the subject of the verb, so I could turn to the German for a translation of that word in context. But I have to say that when it came to unravelling complex sentences, then I would have to go back to the French even though my German is far more current. There is something about the way that French is constructed that allows it to carry the weight of those sentences of Proust's that seem to collapse in another language. Certainly, during the discussion we had in the Proust group, I came to realise that gendered nouns do help to trace the pronouns back to their referants, whereas 'it' can be anything really can't it? Also the distinction between subject and object in the relative pronouns qui and que, absolutely essential as an aid and completely lost in 'which'. And at the same time, French has an elasticity, a certain flexibility of word order that frees it up. As an uninflected language, English has very rigid word order, as a highly inflected language German still has some odd rules about word order too. French seems to combine enough inflection to make relationships within sentences clear, with ease and elasticity and flexibility for emphasis.
Thanks for the like, by the way.
I've had the odd experience of reading some of Proust in German. Since I already had it in French and then had to get it in German for a seminar I went to, it seemed ridiculous to buy an English translation as well. Occasionally when reading the French, it would be the odd word that I'd stumble over rather than the fact that I had lost track of the subject of the verb, so I could turn to the German for a translation of that word in context. But I have to say that when it came to unravelling complex sentences, then I would have to go back to the French even though my German is far more current. There is something about the way that French is constructed that allows it to carry the weight of those sentences of Proust's that seem to collapse in another language. Certainly, during the discussion we had in the Proust group, I came to realise that gendered nouns do help to trace the pronouns back to their referants, whereas 'it' can be anything really can't it? Also the distinction between subject and object in the relative pronouns qui and que, absolutely essential as an aid and completely lost in 'which'. And at the same time, French has an elasticity, a certain flexibility of word order that frees it up. As an uninflected language, English has very rigid word order, as a highly inflected language German still has some odd rules about word order too. French seems to combine enough inflection to make relationships within sentences clear, with ease and elasticity and flexibility for emphasis.
Thanks for the like, by the way.
Thanks guys. Dolors (my autocorrect keeps trying to add an unCatalan ‘e’), I think you're right that ‘flow’ is the thing. That was what I could never seem to build up.
Karen, I find your comment fascinating and convincing, and if you're right then it implies MP has been poorly served by his translators, because the issues you touch on should be solved by playing with sentence structure etc in the target language. I remember when I first copied that sentence above into my notebook, I spent a long time playing around with it, moving clauses about, replacing commas with brackets etc., trying to make it work in English in a way that preserves the length and bendiness of Proust. Not having read the original, this was just a game, but I think the principle is there…
Karen, I find your comment fascinating and convincing, and if you're right then it implies MP has been poorly served by his translators, because the issues you touch on should be solved by playing with sentence structure etc in the target language. I remember when I first copied that sentence above into my notebook, I spent a long time playing around with it, moving clauses about, replacing commas with brackets etc., trying to make it work in English in a way that preserves the length and bendiness of Proust. Not having read the original, this was just a game, but I think the principle is there…
I read the first two books Warwick much as I listen to jazz, just letting it wash over me leaving whatever impressions they may. You have a greater sensitivity and knowledge of grammar than I do which probably makes this more difficult-wiping out the rhythm section and therefore difficult to get to the solos.
I did start book three but closed it a hundred pages in and have never returned. I do find myself listening to more Miles Davis, so make of it what you will. :)
I did start book three but closed it a hundred pages in and have never returned. I do find myself listening to more Miles Davis, so make of it what you will. :)
I love jazz and I do see some similarities, although I don't have a great sense of improvisation from Proust…it's something else… Thanks for the comment!
·Karen· wrote: "There is something about the way that French is constructed that allows it to carry the weight of those sentences of Proust's that seem to collapse in another language.."
Karen, your entire comment is an excellent explanation of the particularities of Proust's style but the sentence above sums up the situation for me. His style and the language are a perfectly organic pairing.
As to the difficulties of translating such a perfect marriage into another language, of course they are there and they have to be acknowledged but they should in no way be a barrier to reading him in translation. I've recently read three books by Thomas Mann translated by James Wood, and while I've been aware from checking the original that some examples of Mann's subtler wordplay don't come through in English, the experience of reading him in translation was very satisfying from a language as well as a content point of view.
That takes me back to the opening sentence of the English translation of Proust's second volume which Warwick quoted above. I've reread it several times now and I think it works very well from both a style and a grammar point of view. Yes, it's long but it contains so much information that it is rather a superb example of concision. The reader who is continuing the Narrator's story (i.e., not starting this series at the second volume) is presented very subtly with a lot of new information: the sudden and inexplicable rise of Cottard in the parents estimation, and more dramatically, the complete, and equally inexplicable denigration of Swann. That one sentence also introduces the figure of the publicly revered Norpois into the private family setting. Such a lot of drama in one, not overlong sentence.
Karen, your entire comment is an excellent explanation of the particularities of Proust's style but the sentence above sums up the situation for me. His style and the language are a perfectly organic pairing.
As to the difficulties of translating such a perfect marriage into another language, of course they are there and they have to be acknowledged but they should in no way be a barrier to reading him in translation. I've recently read three books by Thomas Mann translated by James Wood, and while I've been aware from checking the original that some examples of Mann's subtler wordplay don't come through in English, the experience of reading him in translation was very satisfying from a language as well as a content point of view.
That takes me back to the opening sentence of the English translation of Proust's second volume which Warwick quoted above. I've reread it several times now and I think it works very well from both a style and a grammar point of view. Yes, it's long but it contains so much information that it is rather a superb example of concision. The reader who is continuing the Narrator's story (i.e., not starting this series at the second volume) is presented very subtly with a lot of new information: the sudden and inexplicable rise of Cottard in the parents estimation, and more dramatically, the complete, and equally inexplicable denigration of Swann. That one sentence also introduces the figure of the publicly revered Norpois into the private family setting. Such a lot of drama in one, not overlong sentence.
I agree with most of what you say, but I disagree that that sentence works very well. I think that moving the first subordinate clause is essential, just by a few words.
My mother having expressed, when it was a question of our having M. de Norpois to dinner for the first time, her regret that Professor Cottard was away from home…
…is already infinitely clearer (though possibly less Proustian in some other way).
My mother having expressed, when it was a question of our having M. de Norpois to dinner for the first time, her regret that Professor Cottard was away from home…
…is already infinitely clearer (though possibly less Proustian in some other way).
Hi Fionnuala. I don't think the problem with the sentence is its length. I agree with Warwick here (just in the case of this sentence, that is; I haven't read Proust): it's the fact that I had to read it three times before extracting the sense from it. True, I could have read it as Stephen advocates and just let it wash over me, but I find if I do that too often I eventually lose patience. And in my own writing, this causing the reader to fumble after, trip or tumble over my grammar is something I try hard to avoid. That said, it could be that there's a valid point in making the reader re-read, and obviously there are books I've read three times and more for sheer enjoyment. But this is a different type of re-reading and one I can't seem to enjoy... so far. (Maybe if I had more time for reading? But that's another story.)
On another note, and as I've said before, boy, am I envious of you multi-lingual types. All I can do is read as much in translation as possible, hoping to catch a flavour of other languages where they rub up against English. And listen in on conversations like these for clues as to what's out there in the world beyond Anglo. Keep it up!
On another note, and as I've said before, boy, am I envious of you multi-lingual types. All I can do is read as much in translation as possible, hoping to catch a flavour of other languages where they rub up against English. And listen in on conversations like these for clues as to what's out there in the world beyond Anglo. Keep it up!
Warwick wrote: "I agree with most of what you say, but I disagree that that sentence works very well. I think that moving the first subordinate clause is essential, just by a few words.
My mother having expressed, when it was a question of our having M. de Norpois to dinner for the first time, her regret that Professor Cottard was away from home…
…is already infinitely clearer (though possibly less Proustian in some other way). "
Bougre! We must have very different reading styles because when you split 'having expressed' from 'her regret' by inserting the sub clause, the result completely bamboozled me. I think that the only logical place to put that first sub clause is immediately after 'My Mother comma'.
My mother having expressed, when it was a question of our having M. de Norpois to dinner for the first time, her regret that Professor Cottard was away from home…
…is already infinitely clearer (though possibly less Proustian in some other way). "
Bougre! We must have very different reading styles because when you split 'having expressed' from 'her regret' by inserting the sub clause, the result completely bamboozled me. I think that the only logical place to put that first sub clause is immediately after 'My Mother comma'.
Ben wrote: "..it's the fact that I had to read it three times before extracting the sense from it.."
I accept that you had to read the opening sentence three times before you could fully understand it, Ben; I can't argue with that fact, but I can suggest that had you read the entire first volume before you read that sentence, you would have already absorbed the intricacies of Proust's style and that consequently, the sentence would have been clear on the first read.
Now I'm hoping very much that my own sentences are clear on the first read - like you, it is something I'm always aware of but not always sure I manage perfectly. Fingers crossed this time.
And furthermore, like you, I love that I have been able to read work by Russian, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, German, Hungarian, Romanian, Arabic, Japanese, Chinese writers throughout my life and I'm very grateful to all the dedicated translators of world literature, and to the little publishing houses scattered across the globe, who make all that possible.
I accept that you had to read the opening sentence three times before you could fully understand it, Ben; I can't argue with that fact, but I can suggest that had you read the entire first volume before you read that sentence, you would have already absorbed the intricacies of Proust's style and that consequently, the sentence would have been clear on the first read.
Now I'm hoping very much that my own sentences are clear on the first read - like you, it is something I'm always aware of but not always sure I manage perfectly. Fingers crossed this time.
And furthermore, like you, I love that I have been able to read work by Russian, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, German, Hungarian, Romanian, Arabic, Japanese, Chinese writers throughout my life and I'm very grateful to all the dedicated translators of world literature, and to the little publishing houses scattered across the globe, who make all that possible.
Fionnuala wrote: "Warwick wrote: "I agree with most of what you say, but I disagree that that sentence works very well. I think that moving the first subordinate clause is essential, just by a few words.
My mother h..."
Perfect example of what I mean. English does very much like to keep a verb and its direct object, or predicate, very close together. Splitting expressed and her regret makes for a heaviness under the weight of which the sentence begins to groan and creak.
Fi, you're absolutely right to say that the perfect marriage does not mean that Proust must, of necessity, be completely untranslateable. It is always a weighing up, a balance between clarity, and retaining the Proustiness of it, and it turning into something wordy and sticky and overblown that is not a reflection of the Proustiness either. It's a thing of wondrous value that there can be several individual versions of Proust that solve that riddle in different ways. None of them, perhaps, perfect, but very close, very close.
Translations (and I have done a few, none of them literary) are always a compromise, don't you think?
My mother h..."
Perfect example of what I mean. English does very much like to keep a verb and its direct object, or predicate, very close together. Splitting expressed and her regret makes for a heaviness under the weight of which the sentence begins to groan and creak.
Fi, you're absolutely right to say that the perfect marriage does not mean that Proust must, of necessity, be completely untranslateable. It is always a weighing up, a balance between clarity, and retaining the Proustiness of it, and it turning into something wordy and sticky and overblown that is not a reflection of the Proustiness either. It's a thing of wondrous value that there can be several individual versions of Proust that solve that riddle in different ways. None of them, perhaps, perfect, but very close, very close.
Translations (and I have done a few, none of them literary) are always a compromise, don't you think?
The problem is you need it to ‘groan’ a little – or at least, you need to know that you're waiting for something. If you say My mother, comma, and immediately subordinate, then you don't know what kind of sentence you're waiting for. It looks like a sentence of the form
My mother, when it was a matter of doing something, said something else.
But that ‘said’ (or similar verb) never appears, which is why it's so confusing to read. So I think you need to have the ‘having expressed’ at the front. If you break immediately afterwards then the reader knows they are waiting for a grammatical object. Alternatively though, you could break it like this:
My mother having expressed her regret, when it was a question of our having M. de Norpois to dinner for the first time, that Professor Cottard was away from home…
which I think also works. The problem is with breaking off straight after ‘my mother’, which leads you to think, wrongly, that it's the subject of the main clause.
My mother, when it was a matter of doing something, said something else.
But that ‘said’ (or similar verb) never appears, which is why it's so confusing to read. So I think you need to have the ‘having expressed’ at the front. If you break immediately afterwards then the reader knows they are waiting for a grammatical object. Alternatively though, you could break it like this:
My mother having expressed her regret, when it was a question of our having M. de Norpois to dinner for the first time, that Professor Cottard was away from home…
which I think also works. The problem is with breaking off straight after ‘my mother’, which leads you to think, wrongly, that it's the subject of the main clause.
(This is a ridiculous way to criticise Proust! But there you are. It's a fascinating discussion anyway…!)
Like I said, this is obviously ridiculous on one level. But I'm not offering this up as literature. I'm trying to understand why a sentence like this is so confusing in English, and whether there's a more natural way for the English language to express it…that's all. If the original works for you, then all well and good, you obviously won't have any interest in following this discussion. I translated professionally for many years, so I'm still interested in the mechanics of this stuff.
Sympa cette revue! :)
Personnellement, je trouve la phrase en français un peu compliquée certes, mais encore acceptable: il faut lire en se concentrant, c'est évident. Le problème, c'est que pour accepter de se concentrer ainsi pendant tout un livre, il faut encore que le sujet plaise. Or a priori, toujours en ce qui me concerne, les états d'âme d'un rentier oisif centré sur sa petite personne et sur le petit monde fermé qu'il fréquente ne m'attirent pas vraiment. Je me serai vraisemblablement arrêté au même point. Et de là à trouver le style exagérément pédant et ampoulé, il n'y a qu'un pas. ^^
Mais bon, ça reste un procès d'intention basé sur un préjugé, et la curiosité me ferait peut-être changer de sentiments...
Personnellement, je trouve la phrase en français un peu compliquée certes, mais encore acceptable: il faut lire en se concentrant, c'est évident. Le problème, c'est que pour accepter de se concentrer ainsi pendant tout un livre, il faut encore que le sujet plaise. Or a priori, toujours en ce qui me concerne, les états d'âme d'un rentier oisif centré sur sa petite personne et sur le petit monde fermé qu'il fréquente ne m'attirent pas vraiment. Je me serai vraisemblablement arrêté au même point. Et de là à trouver le style exagérément pédant et ampoulé, il n'y a qu'un pas. ^^
Mais bon, ça reste un procès d'intention basé sur un préjugé, et la curiosité me ferait peut-être changer de sentiments...
pour accepter de se concentrer ainsi pendant tout un livre, il faut encore que le sujet plaise
eh ben…justement. Et voilà le problème. Mais c'est fort rassurant de voir qu'il y a des Français qui partagent mes sentiments…!
eh ben…justement. Et voilà le problème. Mais c'est fort rassurant de voir qu'il y a des Français qui partagent mes sentiments…!
·Karen· wrote: "..It's a thing of wondrous value that there can be several individual versions of Proust that solve that riddle in different ways. None of them, perhaps, perfect, but very close, very close.
Translations (and I have done a few, none of them literary) are always a compromise, don't you think?"
Yes, I think translation requires compromise, even between languages with the same origins, like the romance languages, for example. But here the challenges are even greater because we're talking about translating a romance language into a germanic language. But, as you say, Karen, many different ways can be found to do it, and with remarkable success sometimes. The translation of the very first line of the Recherche is an example of that: I've seen at least three versions in English of the short opening sentence: Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, and they all sounded good.
Translations (and I have done a few, none of them literary) are always a compromise, don't you think?"
Yes, I think translation requires compromise, even between languages with the same origins, like the romance languages, for example. But here the challenges are even greater because we're talking about translating a romance language into a germanic language. But, as you say, Karen, many different ways can be found to do it, and with remarkable success sometimes. The translation of the very first line of the Recherche is an example of that: I've seen at least three versions in English of the short opening sentence: Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, and they all sounded good.
Warwick wrote: Yann wrote: "...pour accepter de se concentrer ainsi pendant tout un livre, il faut encore que le sujet plaise."
eh ben…justement. Et voilà le problème. Mais c'est fort rassurant de voir qu'il y a des Français qui partagent mes sentiments..."
I don't think it is at all clear that you and Yann are saying the same thing, Warwick.
Yann seems to be saying that reading Proust's sentence requires some effort, and that in order to summon the effort required, he, Yann, would have to find the subject particularly interesting. So his position is that the sentence works. However, he doesn't claim to have read Proust or to know whether his writing is interesting or not but he does confess to feeling some prejudice towards him, as he says himself, Proust is but a rentier oisif centré sur sa petite personne et le petit monde fermé qu'il fréquente.
Such irrational prejudice against the author himself rather than his writing is perhaps the common ground you share on this subject.
Re the valid grammar points you made earlier, Warwick, I think the present participle is the signpost that warns the reader that the mother may not be the subject of the sentence..
eh ben…justement. Et voilà le problème. Mais c'est fort rassurant de voir qu'il y a des Français qui partagent mes sentiments..."
I don't think it is at all clear that you and Yann are saying the same thing, Warwick.
Yann seems to be saying that reading Proust's sentence requires some effort, and that in order to summon the effort required, he, Yann, would have to find the subject particularly interesting. So his position is that the sentence works. However, he doesn't claim to have read Proust or to know whether his writing is interesting or not but he does confess to feeling some prejudice towards him, as he says himself, Proust is but a rentier oisif centré sur sa petite personne et le petit monde fermé qu'il fréquente.
Such irrational prejudice against the author himself rather than his writing is perhaps the common ground you share on this subject.
Re the valid grammar points you made earlier, Warwick, I think the present participle is the signpost that warns the reader that the mother may not be the subject of the sentence..
Well Yann's position is that the phrase works in French. Which I am very willing to accept. When I said we share the same feelings I meant over our general view of Proust, which, fair enough, may perhaps be a bit irrational (although I have at least read one of his books and a few other books about him. I don't feel particularly prejudiced about it. I just didn't enjoy reading him).
As for the present participle…the problem is that it looks like a much commoner construction (My mother, having done something, did something else), where you still expect a finite verb. But in this case we have My mother, having done something, my father. Woah! The separation of ‘my mother’ and ‘having expressed’ completes disguises the nature of the sentence. At least on a first run-through!
As for the present participle…the problem is that it looks like a much commoner construction (My mother, having done something, did something else), where you still expect a finite verb. But in this case we have My mother, having done something, my father. Woah! The separation of ‘my mother’ and ‘having expressed’ completes disguises the nature of the sentence. At least on a first run-through!
To me the problem is partly that the sentence form is archaic; I just don't expect that kind of construction, not having seen it around much these days. But I agree, Fionnuala, if I'd read a whole volume of Proust I would know better what to expect. I guess it's about trust: if I trust the author, I will re-read a sentence until I get it right. And having done that a few times, I'll know what to expect. The reader having learned trust, Proust builds on that trust with further contortions. (And it strikes me, it's the comma after "mother" - and the whole "when..." clause - that really threw me.)
Ben wrote: "(Oh, and Fionnuala, your prose is a cinch to follow. And praise small publishers and translators!)"
Ben - I had meant to leave the last word to Warwick but I can't pass up the chance to say merci mille fois agus go raibh míle maith agat freisin..
Ben - I had meant to leave the last word to Warwick but I can't pass up the chance to say merci mille fois agus go raibh míle maith agat freisin..
"When it was first suggested we invite M. de Norpois to dinner, my mother commented that it was a pity Professor Cottard was absent from Paris and that she herself had quite lost touch with Swann, either of whom the former ambassador would have been pleased to meet; to which my father replied that, although a guest as eminent as Cottard, a scientific man of some renown, would always be an asset at one's dinner table, the Marquis de Norpois would be bound to see Swann, with his showing off and his name-dropping, as nothing but a vulgar swank, "a rank outsider," as he would put it."
What think you all, especially M. de Warwick? I note that this entire discussion centers on the Enright via Kilmartin via Moncrieff edition.
But I also note that the illustration accompanying this discussion (on my screen at least) is of the new Penguin Classic edition of Volume Two, translated by James Grieve, whose version of the first sentence is above.
I tried to read Swann's Way years ago, and utterly rejected it after only a few pages. When my current book club overruled my vitriolic protestations and chose the book as the next, I discovered Lydia Davis' translation. I even compared it to Enright, to make sure I'm not being handed a "new English", superficial, pop culture version. My unhappy history with Proust led me to choose the Davis translation as added insurance that I would in fact get through the book this time, assuming it would be easier.
Having not read both translations, I don't know if it was easier. In fact, it was not easy, but it was compelling, a joy, and left me in awe of Proust, and in awe of the translator.
I'm starting The Guermantes Way, and I'm stuck after three pages, but only because there is enough insight contained therein to fill another author's hundred pages.
What think you all, especially M. de Warwick? I note that this entire discussion centers on the Enright via Kilmartin via Moncrieff edition.
But I also note that the illustration accompanying this discussion (on my screen at least) is of the new Penguin Classic edition of Volume Two, translated by James Grieve, whose version of the first sentence is above.
I tried to read Swann's Way years ago, and utterly rejected it after only a few pages. When my current book club overruled my vitriolic protestations and chose the book as the next, I discovered Lydia Davis' translation. I even compared it to Enright, to make sure I'm not being handed a "new English", superficial, pop culture version. My unhappy history with Proust led me to choose the Davis translation as added insurance that I would in fact get through the book this time, assuming it would be easier.
Having not read both translations, I don't know if it was easier. In fact, it was not easy, but it was compelling, a joy, and left me in awe of Proust, and in awe of the translator.
I'm starting The Guermantes Way, and I'm stuck after three pages, but only because there is enough insight contained therein to fill another author's hundred pages.
I think you're more defensive than you need to be.
It's a few years since I tried Proust. I think I got about 1/3 of the way through Swann's Way, but it was the excruciating sentences such as the one you quote that did it for me.
It's a few years since I tried Proust. I think I got about 1/3 of the way through Swann's Way, but it was the excruciating sentences such as the one you quote that did it for me.
Interesting take. I didn't think I was defensive. The paragraph quoted was just an example of a more accessible translation than that of Moncrieff-Kilmartin-Enright, one that might have opened the door a little more to theProustian palate.
I don't think I made it to page 50 on my first pass through Swann's Way.
On the subject of excruciating sentences, I started A Tale Of Two Cities five times before I developed the stomach for Dickens' excruciating sentences--before I could digest them easily. Had I read The Sound And The Fury as my first taste of Faulkner, I would have rejected him outright.
Taste? Stomach? Digest? Palate? I'm not so much defensive as a glutton for punishment.
I don't think I made it to page 50 on my first pass through Swann's Way.
On the subject of excruciating sentences, I started A Tale Of Two Cities five times before I developed the stomach for Dickens' excruciating sentences--before I could digest them easily. Had I read The Sound And The Fury as my first taste of Faulkner, I would have rejected him outright.
Taste? Stomach? Digest? Palate? I'm not so much defensive as a glutton for punishment.
Haha, I remember liking and strongly agreeing your review last year, not long after I tried reading In Search of Lost Time for the first time and had to give up on page 30 because of the writing style. I’m back to Proust this year and this time around I find the writing lovely and, since I’m not particularly interested in love subplots and long descriptions, the quirky prose is what makes this book so enjoyable for me. Interesting how things change.
Xandra, wonderful that you've resurrected the blog. I love the quirkiness too, but my conundrum: Wait til you get to volume 3; I could go no further than the first ten or twenty pages of The Guermantes Way. Not bogged down, rather so astounded by the psychological insight into the relationship between the narrator and Francoise in their move to Paris that I wanted to keep reading these pages again and again. Same words, but something deeper with each pass. Always getting more out of it. Such affectionate co-dependents, to modernize it. Where did Proust develop this superhuman insight into the human condition?! I'm glad he passed it on.
Kevin wrote: "Xandra, wonderful that you've resurrected the blog. I love the quirkiness too, but my conundrum: Wait til you get to volume 3; I could go no further than the first ten or twenty pages of..."
Oh Kevin, you scared me there for a moment. The relationship between the narrator and Francoise is, I think, my favorite and the promise of seeing it more developed is a strong incentive to start volume 3. I'm amazed by Proust's deep understanding of human psychology and I love how, dissecting every gesture and every thought of his characters, he makes us more aware of our complexity and of how vast every tiny moment of our lives is.
@Warwick: Fingers crossed you do!
Oh Kevin, you scared me there for a moment. The relationship between the narrator and Francoise is, I think, my favorite and the promise of seeing it more developed is a strong incentive to start volume 3. I'm amazed by Proust's deep understanding of human psychology and I love how, dissecting every gesture and every thought of his characters, he makes us more aware of our complexity and of how vast every tiny moment of our lives is.
@Warwick: Fingers crossed you do!
Warwick, have you read "War and Peace"? If not, try that opening paragraph. It's the most audacious and oft-putting opening I've ever encountered, and had I read it in any other book, I would have shelved that book immediately. But it was "War and Peace", so I finished it, four months later.
Haha. I haven't read the novel but I have read that opening paragraph a few times, when trying to decide which translation I might want to read. I agree it's not the most engaging hook ever written!