PESI-EMDR (Day Two: Afternoon Session)-(Ai-Live to

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(Music).
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Welcome back, everyone. I hope you guys had a good break. I'm sorry
always used to having training on Thursdays and Fridays. I want to be like, "We've almost made it!"
But it's not Friday. We have a few hours left together. Love seeing you on here who have been joining
live. Excited to get through the next couple hours with you and hopefully answer any other questions
that you have. I know that we took a lot of questions before we went to lunch. I just want to go to taking
maybe like five more questions and then we're going to get into the next part. I want to show you guys
a different process of EMDR because I think it's really helpful to see the different ways that EMDR can
be utilized and to see different styles. And it really helps you get a feel for what the model looks like
versus me just teaching and talking about it. But I will do some teaching along the way as we watch
that. So, I am going to bring Ryan on with me for a minute and we'll take about five questions and then
we'll get going back into some more of our material.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Thank you, everybody. Grab some questions. I wanted to do something
before I forget.

>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Yes, please!

>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Thank you to Megan for doing this. It is an absolute pleasure to work with
her as part of the PESI family of trainers. We've been very proud to watch her growth over the past few
years and see all the book deals and conferences and all the success that she deserves come her
way. I want to say thanks before I forget before we get to questions. I'm going to ask all of you, go
ahead and flood the Q&A. If you want to say something to Megan, I'll pass it along. It's always nice to
get feedback and people tell you what they liked. If you don't mind, do that. And thanks to everyone at
PESI who makes these things go. Maddie, Jenny, the fabulous customer service staff, everyone
involved. Thank you. Otherwise I'll forget. I'll do it now. Thanks to everybody, and especially thanks to
you Megan, for taking the time to do. This it's been another fun one.
Four or five quick questions. This one has come up a few times. Mood stabilizers, if people are using
that, can you do EMDR?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Great question. I figured this one might come up as well, especially after we
talked about some of the psychosis and other things to be mindful of. Yeah, keep in mind, it's always
important to know what kind of medications they're on, but because EMDR requires us to kind of
stimulate and have some kind of discomfort and get their system somewhat activated, if they're on a
ton of like mood stabilizer medications or anything that's really sedating, know that you're not going to
get the same effect. And also sometimes let's say maybe they're taking like an anti-anxiety medication
like Xanax that's going to flatten them and lower their mood. Sometimes it might be good to prepare
them for like hey, we're going to do an EMDR session next time. Could you maybe wait to take your
medications until after you come in. That could be helpful, too. But keep in mind you might not always
be able to see the same kind of results if there are a lot of medications that do affect their ability to get
aroused if that makes sense.

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>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: And then again, lots of people working with kids.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Mm-hmm.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Considering using this. And want to get all the information they K. can.
Maybe a common one. This person kind of worries about working with kids. You do that a lot. You do
that with EMDR. I'm afraid I'll damage someone or something.
And that's something that comes up a bit. I don't know if you could speak to that a bit. Working with
kids, using EMDR. Is it going to be okay?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Yeah. Are you guys ready for a Meganism with this question. That's what
it's going to be here with this question. This is what I'm going to tell you. I say this a lot. As long as
you're a remotely decent clinician that genuinely cares about your clients and you have regulation
skills and you're somewhat trauma-informed and you've taken time to do that, trust your skills that
you're going to be able to keep people like safely inside the window of tolerance, even if you're not
doing EMDR, right? Because we always run that risk of what if we open up the trauma too soon and it
causes issues. This is the part that I would tell you coming from me. The trauma is there for them
whether we access it or not. They live it. They live with the symptoms, the triggers every single day.
So, know that us making an attempt, even if it doesn't go perfectly, as long as you are you're really
trauma-informed, you're using skills, even if it causes somewhat disruption and disregulation, use it as
a learn experience. Not just for you as a clinician, but for them. When has this happened before? We
avoid so much, right, of like what if we cause more issues. That is the problem. But the real issue is
going to be, and a similar issue is the longer we go without addressing the trauma, so even if we leave
it alone, they still run the risk, right, of having those same things happen, but maybe in different ways.
Obviously, we wouldn't be the ones responsible for it in that case. But even then, don't take on all that
responsibility. Like work in conjunction with your clients. And if you have a really strong foundation of
support and trust with them, be honest about that. Like I want to see this work. If it feels like we're
getting disregulated or whatever, that's going to create safety. But they're already there living with it, so
don't worry about that. And with kids, what I would tell you is – and if you do worry about that, that's
kind of why I stress that preparation so much. I always feel more comfortable as a clinician if I have
given them as many resources and tools as possible before I try to go into the trauma. Same thing with
kids. You're in a developmental phase with kids where really a lot of your EMDR isn't about the trauma
processing. It's more about the resourcing skills and helping the brain start to form those neural
connections and learn how to regulate. Know a lot of the times with kids you'll stay there. You'll stay in
that place. That's part of that emotional regulations skills is really what that's going to look like.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: This is an interesting one that I think a couple people asked. So, you're
doing bilateral stimulation as a clinician for hours a day with people. Does that affect you as the
clinician? Like do you find that your dreams are more vivid and things like that? Does it have an impact
on you to be doing this with clients?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Hmm ...that is an interesting question. So, I would say I like the tapping as a
form of co-regulation, to be honest. Like most of the time we have to sit and listen to stuff and it's like
oh my gosh,s that's heavy. Sometimes the tapping keeps me a little bit more grounded and regulated

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as I take that in. Man, probably no more than just listening to the normal stuff that we listen to as
clinicians. So, hard to differentiate. But yeah. Good question, nonetheless.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: More people again looking about substance use disorders. Is that
something? Yep, definitely? There's protocols for all of that. When in the treatment process do you
introduce this? So, if you're working with somebody with trauma addictions, when does EMDR come
into play?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Yeah, so, you know, my favorite EMDR clinician, he actually passed away,
AJ Popke, he did so much development on – and I kind of loved his stance on a lot of things – but he
was like really came from this foundation and belief in a lot of his work. He has been around, he had
been around since the beginning of EMDR and he is very well known for his work in addiction with
EMDR and the research and evidence around it. But, you know, he kind of came from this standpoint
of you start using it right away. Like the protocols that are specific to addiction with EMDR and the
resourcing skills. You get in and you use this right away. And he talks about this idea of like well, I
always get asked. Like clinicians say what if they use, what if they relapse, they're already using in
relapsing. So, start to use these skills as a way to kind of help work through some of the triggers. So,
we're not jumping in and doing direct trauma work right away. We're working on addressing the urges
for use, the triggers for use, and then desensitizing those urges. It can work really, really nicely. I love
a lot of the protocols that they've developed that are specific to addiction and EMDR. And they use
those right out of the gates with people. And, you know, I think you kind of have to be in that same kind
of mindset that you're in the trenches with them and you're going to try this stuff out. But I have keen it
do amazing things for people who have really struggled to gain headway with substance abuse in the
past.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: And kind of in that vain again of where and with whom we use this, what
about folks with an ODD or conduct disorder?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Yeah, I don't know about conduct disorder, but ODD, absolutely. The
oppositional defiant piece, especially when you integrate the internal family systems and really are
working with kind of that defiant, protective part of them you can really make some good headway
there.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: One that's come up a number of times, EMDR and doing EMDR to
yourself. I know there's a lot of stuff out there that says you can do EMDR to yourself on Youtube and
stuff like that. Advisable, not advisable?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Oh my gosh you guys, no! Don't do that. (Chuckling) Just because you don't
know what's going to come up. I think it's horrible, to be honest, that we've put that out there for clients
when we don't know the kind of resources they have. Even with the restrictions and limitations they put
out. No. You deserve to have support through this therapeutically. I think that's how it's best used. I've
also seen some things, which also makes me a little bit cringey. Come and do EMDR all day for three
days. You just do EMDR sessions every day. Again, I don't think that's effective at all. Your system
can only process so much. You need that time in between. So, just make sure that things have been
like researched and evidence-based before people are jumping into like trying those kind of things,

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because I don't think that that's wise.

>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Maybe the last one for now ...you guys did a good job flooding the Q&A.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Yeah, thank you for all the questions!
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: I'm scrolling all over trying to get to all the questions and you're all so
nice. Megan, I'll share those with you later. This individual, when they were doing eye movements,
they noticed that their eyes moved easily one direction but then felt like there was resis resistance
coming the other direction. Is that something that happens with clients? Should we be asking about
that? What does that mean? Does it mean anything?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Yeah, that's interesting. I would just continue to use it and see if that's
something that continued. What it's making me think of is that polyvagal exercise we did yesterday,
how can it cause that strain. It's also making me think of brain spotting a little bit, where maybe the
eyes haven't used to having that range of movement or motion. So, if it becomes an issue or starts to
cause distress, I would recommend switching to a different form of bilateral stimulation. But like
anything with a bilateral stimulation no matter what you use you'll go through an adjustment period of
it. >> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Okay, I'll pop off for now. Call me back when you're ready for the next
round.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Okay, guys. We're going to go into watching one more demonstration. I do
want to show you guys just how different EMDR can look and the different ways that it can be used.
And I also want you to see the different ways that people can process. So, you got to see kind of my
kind of attachment style. It's probably one of the least interactive sessions that I could show you
because I like a lot of advanced EMDR stuff where you're a little more integrated into the process. But
I want to show you a basic when we're first learning EMDR as the clinician, truly staying out of the
way. I also want you to see an example of what the eye movements look like in person. I'm going to
show a demo that was actually done several years ago by another EMDR clinician. I have a lot of
respect for a lot of her work. I think she's just brilliant and very knowledgeable in the realm of EMDR
named Jamie Merrick. I'm going to show this demo that she does. It's again, a participant that she's
training. She also does a really good job of educating how to set up the eye movements when you're in
person. I think it's good for you guy to kind of see that and have that feel for it so you kind of
understand the mechanism of it. I'll also be teaching through this as we watch it together. So, that will
kind of – I'm going to help kind of explain what's happening, why certain things are being done. And
help you kind of understand the process of what's taking place. After that, we're going to look at what
do to we do when blocked processing occurs. So, when there are blocks that come in and it prevents
people from processing and moving forward or people get stuck, what do we do with that? I want to
show you what that would look like and how to kind of use, or how you would use those interweaves if
you end up going forward and doing more training in EMDR.
So, let me pull this up for us. And we'll get started.
I'm going to skip just a part of this.
And we won't be going through this all the way to the end, but I do want to show you kind of a bit of
this because I do think it's a really great, useful learning tool. So, – .

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I did put the link for the full video of this. In your additional resources, as well.
Okay.
There we go.
So, kind of what I skipped over so far is she kind of does like a summary of like phase one and phase
two. Now she's kind of preparing her to go into the processing that they're going to be doing. So,
they're kind of doing this like taking some mindful, congruent breathing together to get them regulated
to go into the actual processing.
(Captioned video).
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Sometimes this orientation is going to be important, maybe before you go
into setting up what you're targeting. Taking some moments to do some mindfulness work, breath
work.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: She's going to review kind of a resourcing skill right now, which we are
going to actually kind of skip over and get to where we set up the protocol. But what I wanted you to
see was this piece is that sometimes you might need to get them kind of grounded in the moment
before we lead into getting into the actual meat of the protocol.
So, we are going to, I do want to show you how she is going to set up the eye movements. Then we
will be skipping to where we set up the protocol and where we see the processing.
And what you can't see right now because it is a little bit difficult to see, but they are sitting kind of
parallel from each other. So, they're not sitting in front of each other. They're sitting kind of in that ships
in the night kind of approach.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: This is going to help you see if you do use eye movements and let's say you
decided to use one of the light bars that we talked about, you could have that light bar kind of
positioned where Jamie, the clinician, where you're seeing her at.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: We're going to do the same thing with the light bar, as well. Distance is
important with eye movements. It's not too close or blurry but where they're able to follow that. It's
going to be different for everyone.
again, what we're watching for is her eyes' ability to track that. They're not lagging behind the
movements, meaning she's trying to get her eye to catch up to it. And her eyes aren't jumping ahead
of the eye movement. We want where we see that nice, easy congruence of tracking.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: This is going to show you a good piece, too. I want you to see how you can
integrate the eye movements. So, notice for a moment she is inviting her to close her eyes. She is
going to bring up an image and obviously she would have to open her eyes like we would have to do
with container, calm place, restoration team, where we're going between sitting, thinking on that,
maybe with eyes closed and then we're going to open that obviously when we add the stimulation.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Resourcing again, we're going to have a much slower rhythm. She's going
to stay set on what her eyes are able to track. If we're doing tapping, it might be more rhythmic. Those
different settings on here. And one thing I want you to notice, so you can see just the different ways
that we utilize resourcing activities as our different clinical approaches, I might do light stream. And
let's say she's not doing eye movements, I might have said I want you to think of that light stream and

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we might have added that. Again, that's just my approach. You can also do it this way, as well, where
envision that for a movement. If it's someone who has an easy time visualizing things, maybe she can
pull that up right away and she doesn't need the bilateral stimulation to maybe help with that focus. So,
she can kind of just pull her mind there. This is her own kind of clinical preference, client preference,
as well. And what we're seeing is she is going to pull in the bilateral stimulation. So, she's kind of using
it as a gauge to say okay, we're using this light, what are you noticing? She is checking in to make
sure it's positive, first of all, there's no intrusions. If it wasn't, we'd do some different things. And then
once we know that it's kind of a positive or neutral thought or cognition or whatever it is, then we're just
going to kind of enhance that by adding the bilateral stimulation is what you're kind of seeing here.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: We also see a slower approach here where we're getting bits of information,
sitting with that one thing, and going in and just enhancing those positive elements. You can approach
it this way. You can maybe put more of it together if you need to. Totally, again, up to what works best
for you and the client.
They're going to kind of continue to get grounded. I am going to move forward towards where we're
going to set up the protocol here.
She is referring to the exercise that they did, we're not going to see the whole thing, called light
stream. It's just another resourcing activity you can utilize. It's a nice somatic exercise. And so she is
just talking about how that's going to be something they can come back to, if needed. This could also
be any of those other resourcing skills that we've utilized, as well.
I'm going to move forward here. And then we'll see the stop sign piece here, as well.
This will go back to if you're going to do eye movements, I don't always necessarily test this out before
we get in, if I'm using like tapping or something. I will with audio. And usually just after the very first set
that we do, I'll say how was that. But with eye movements, just because the speed is so much different
because we're a little bit more slower and rhythmic, right? In those resourcing skills. When we get into
processing, you want it to be a little bit more rapid. So, the notion with eye movements is it's as fast as
they can kind of tolerate and are able to keep up with that. So, we do kind of want to test that out and
explain just like we're seeing her do right now that it is going to be a little bit more rapid. If we're using
audio, as well. One thing to keep in mind is likely they've maybe used an audio sound that's a little bit
more rhythmic and soothing for those resourcing skills. We want a little bit faster, like I kind of showed
you guys yesterday, with auditory, as well. And with the sound or with the tapping, and even the eye
movements, we want it to be at their tolerance level. So, I don't want it to fast that they're unable to
think about anything else. But I want it as fast as they can kind of tolerate that's creating this dual
awareness. This is helping them kind of rapidly process and it's going to help them not get stuck on
some of the stimulus that we might come across.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: What we didn't see earlier in this because I passed through some of the
technical stuff, but essentially because we're starting the assessment right now, she brings up an
incident when they're at the beach when she is six years old and she gets swept under by a wave and
she can't get her bearings and it's caused so much distress that she hasn't been in the ocean since.
She hasn't been able to be in a pool without her feet touching the ground. And so remember that if

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we're working with a past incident, we do need to know the age that this occurred, which we did see.
So, now we're looking at what the worst part is.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: So, think about this as a good target for a single incident of trauma. And
we're looking for what is that worst part, that vivid maybe detail. So, what we saw in the demonstration
I did, right, it was more about the belief that we heard. But right here, what we're seeing is sometimes
it can be that image where there is that piece of this incident that is just stuck and feels so intense.
And maybe it's what's causing those flashbacks and those other things, okay? But we have to kind of
identify this because this is part of how we're going to diminish the trigger and activation associated
with it.
I want you to notice the difference here. I typically would use that negative cognition list. I would talk
about giving that to them. I want you to notice how sometimes it can be difficult for them to find those
words and why that list might be useful or helpful.
We're also going to see the order in the way she does these eight questions is a little bit different. We
took the negative cognition and then the positive cognition and now we're rating that. We'll see the
order is a little bit different. Doesn't matter. I'll explain why I do what I do in a minute.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: So, one of the things that you see, maybe, that's a little bit different. It's
similar to when we got done with emotions and right after emotions she rated the disturbance level.
This is again clinical preference and difference you can do with EMDR. Your own clinical judgment
here. But one thing that I like to do is I like to do the emotions and the physical sensations and then
rate the distress level because usually once you've brought up the emotions and the physical
sensations you get a more accurate representation of what the disturbance level is. But again, you can
do it this way, as well. Really the importance is more of just making sure that we set up the protocol
the way that it's intended to be used and that we're at least touching all of these, right?
We're all learning right now why maybe you wouldn't do eye movement yourself, right? Unless you
wanted to, we're getting the movement and exercise this way. But again, it can get tiring. Again, that
light bar, you can use that, as well. But what you're going to notice about maybe style differences here
is she, Jamie Merrick is a big proponent of allowing processing to occur for longer periods. Rule of
thumb is when you first get trained, you learn how to use the sets in 30-second increments. And then
as you kind of get a little bit more experienced with EMDR, you kind of can learn how to adjust it per
client. She is a huge proponent in longer periods of processing time, which you're going to see. But I
think it's a good representation of how there is some differences and flexibility within how we use
EMDR.
One thing I will point out, you kind of heard her say what are you noticing right now. I personally like to
say tell me what came up or what did you notice, not necessarily right in this moment. But kind of like a
summary of maybe what they filtered through. Again, client and clinician preference.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: What we kind of see here is this a very good representation. She processes
very much somatically in this demonstration. It's not always about imagery. It can be somatic
sensations or looking back on that image. And this is where, too, I want to remind you if we are looking
on a past incident or we can pull in that movie theater analogy. Maybe before we get into the session

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we might say something like or after we set up the protocol or okay we're going to start as a bilateral
stimulation. I just want you to notice that you're in a movie theater, watching this all play out on the
screen. I'd read that protocol back, again, keeping that distance. But know that everyone will process
differently.
What she's going to watch for with the eye movements is how she is testing how long to go.
My own assumption of this is. She is waiting for her eyes are no longer able to track the movements.
That's usually an indicater. I know on the transcript it says, "God" on here, but she says "Dad." Dad
was the one who was with her when this incident happened. Not always would there have been a
verbalization here. I would have checked in.
You'll see what she does here.
And part of why we see her continue to go, because of that verbalization, what I'm assuming again we
know there's activation occurring. So, she is continuing to let her kind of process this.
Again, she's putting her arm up when she explains earlier in this the only thing that she could kind of
move was her arm. She tryed to put her right arm up so her dad could find her. Which won't always
happen. You see there can be some more somatic responses. Again, because of this activation, she is
kind of just letting her continue to go. I would have stopped just to check in to make sure that we're still
adequately processing the way that we are.
And again, assuming that this is also a clinician, they've talked about all of these resources she's used,
she's trusting that she is continuing to process.
And will come out if needed.
You see her use that finger flick there.
I probably would have paused here. But you can do that. If they start to not be able to track, you can
kind of move your fingers quickly to get them to reorient.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: I also want you to think about the limited information that was just given
based on the process and timeline. We don't need to necessarily know everything that was coming up.
So, she kind of just communicates what is kind of sticking out or standing out the most.
And I do like to integrate, like we just heard, noticing I'll say things like you're safe now.
It's in the past. Sometimes that reassurance and validation can also do that.
Keeping them here and now.
It's really telling us that again there's activation going on.
And again, I would have paused and kind of checked in. And sharing less, maybe less verbal. A great
sensation.
>> Think about again that worst part that we started with.
And the worst part, if you guys heard this, if you remembered, she said that she's laying on her back
and she can see the pebbles in the sand and the water moving, but she can't move. So, now we're
hearing kind of the tides are turning, right? Where we're hearing her get to this place of I'm on my feet
and I want to get out of there.
>> The abreaction that we're going to see here was around the somatic responses that we saw. So,
her kind of raising her hand, that verbalization. That was the intensity of it, right? We're also seeing the

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intensity here emotionally. It's the first emotional statement that she's made.
Where as you're observing this, where would you land with what you want to use? You're seeing a
good depiction of how removed we can be as therapists. Meaning not fully removed, but how different
of a role we're going to take on. And really a common theme with EMDR is you learn as the clinician to
really stay out of the way and she does a great job in this demonstration of showing you what this
really looks like.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Great example of that kind of thing out of the way. She doesn't say what are
you questioning? I might have said something along the lines of let's see if you can find an answer to
that. Or notice what would help you find an answer to that confusion or gain some clarity. Either way.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: We've heard this come up twice.
She has a question.
So, what we saw right there is she is just going to check in and make sure it's not related to the
process. Again, I probably would have maybe given that directive because I've heard this more than
once. Of let's see if we can find an answer to this.
Those of you that asked about time, I want you to think about we kind of cut off, we started about 12
minutes into this.
Meaning there was like other kind of resourcing and things we would have probably already covered.
But if we look at this entire session, it's about 58 minutes. So, if you think about where we really
started, you know, give or take 12 minutes.
We're looking at how you can do this again kind of in that 45-minute range to 50-minute range
typically.
And kind of bookmark this, if you can, when we move into interweaves. Think about this. This is a
really good example of what a block would look like. If you've noticed, we've heard this same thing
now twice in a row. This same thing, she says it again, I've got a question. We heard it even this set
before. There's something I'm wondering about or I'm questioning. So, to me when that same thing is
coming up, this is part of why we're checking in. It's telling us that there's something that's getting in
the way of kind of moving forward.
So, again, this is where we would use an interweave.
So, I might have said again what would it take to get an answer, could we find an answer? What would
an answer look like? She ends up kind of saying that on her own. She might not ever get an answer to
it.
Again, we're seeing we found that answer. We could have gotten there a little bit faster if we had used
one of those interweaves to jump start it. But she got there regardless. It shows us again really trusting
this process and what we're going to see. Again, going back to that we're seeing that turning of the tide
where I couldn't sit up, I couldn't move, and now I'm to a place where I want to sit up or I want to stand
up.
We didn't need to know what she was questioning. We're helping her do it.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: One thing that EMDR has taught me to do and other clinicians I've trained
and work with is it really teaches you to be comfortable with that silence, right? And to really just honor

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the space and not rushing through things. And I appreciate the approach for that reason.
Went from not being able to move, wrestling with those questions. You see her kind of work through
she wanted to get out of there. Then there was that wrestling with the question again. Then we see
she thought she would sit up. It wasn't intentional. Now we're to this place of he pulled me up.
So, we're seeing that natural progression of how we're reprocessing this a little bit differently.
Versus like talk therapy, right?
I always think what's interesting about this demonstration, you'll see this in other EMDR sessions that
you do, obviously she already knew that she survived. Right? But it was like there was still something
in her system, in her brain, that was telling her maybe she didn't survive. That was keeping her in this
fight, flight, or freeze response to this. This to me was that really genuine acknowledgment that I
survived with this. I did survive. Kind of that first ah-ha moment, right? And we're thinking this is from
an incident when she's six, but it's like we're seeing that real, kind of lived sensation of I did survive.
In the end I was safe, he pulled me up out of the water. It wasn't intentional. We're looking for that
progression to continue to be positive. That tells us we're moving into resolution.
And again, long sets, right?
What you're going to see in a minute as we get to the end and thinking back again, everything that
we're seeing right now is still the stage four, desensitization phase. So, this is again that majority of the
session that we're spending our time in when we actually get into processing. But you're going to see a
really good piece of this where she does a nice job of hitting on the future fear of getting into the water.
In the future, it's coming up here. Nicely done.
Again, another way she is checking in is almost like a body scan. Is there anywhere or anything else in
our system that needs to feel peaceful?
I like the word she uses. Lean into the peace.
This belief, honestly.
I didn't show this clip when she is describing what they're going to target about being knocked down in
the water and where she talks about I haven't been able to go into the ocean or open water since. I
haven't been able to go into the pool unless I can touch the bottom. This is something from the age of
six, that lasting impact, of where she is now saying I don't need to be afraid of the water.
So, keep in mind what we're doing right now we just saw this big piece of desensitization. So, probably
again we're around about 30 minutes that we're into desensitization. We haven't checked in at all. Now
we're going to check in before we move into the next phase. Of phase five.
This is a very typical thing that you'll hear or see happen a lot. That it doesn't make them forget what
happens, but it will be just that. Now it's an image, a memory versus feeling like somewhere in their
system it's going to happen at any moment. They can just see it with distance and it like doesn't have
the charge to it. Very, very common. We also see that her distress level, right, which started fairly high.
I can't remember initially what it was, like a seven or something. It's now almost completely gone.
So, your positive cognition – .
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: This is the piece. Now we get to see phase five where we're making this
new positive association. So, essentially kind of like what you just heard her say.

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The reprocessing. We're reassociating this target memory with this positive cognition. So, this is that
phase five, that installation phase.
Again, we will always check in with that positive cognition to see if it still fits. Because oftentimes, like I
said before lunch, this positive cognition can oftentimes change or shift or move to something that they
realize they would rather believe instead.
As we're thinking of the initial image, as we're thinking of that kind of drowning or near-drowning
experience we were targeting.
This is what you would do. If I they report that VOC when you check back in with it, we want that. One
of the main ways we truly know it's been reprocessed and desensitized is when that positive statement
feels as true as it can be related to that incident. If they rate it as a five or a six, this is what you'll see
we normally would do.
We might make say what would make it a seven? We just heard her say I couldn't sit up. A belief that
there is still residual that needs to be kind of worked through. We're going to see her give her a
moment to do that, to find some resolve.
We needed to reprocess that. If we would have jumped ahead and said okay, it's a five or a six. That's
better than where we started, we could have missed this little lingering trigger or sensation that was
still there. Eventually what this would look like in the future is this could be another issue that could
come up. We want to make sure we fully resolve any of those residual ties that we have that we're
working on.
We're letting her find the positive resolve about these things and knowing clinically that that's going to
help push that positive belief that she wants to believe of I'm powerful. It's going to help her get to a
place where she really believes that.
We've heard that it's okay come up again. We're going to enhance that it's okay.
We're going to rate that again. Now that we've resolved that mini-snippet, time for her to process
through, we're going to check back in with that VOC level, how true that positive statement feels. Now
it's a seven. And this is the installation. Now we're returning to that installation now that that positive
belief is as true as it gets.
Again, this is where I say I like a really short set. About 15 seconds.
She goes a little bit longer. Than I typically would go here. But I like to keep this really condensed and
consolidated at this point.
To create that cohesion from the initial statement.
We're enhancing this that she did have a sense of control. That she could sit up and wasn't powerless.
We want her mind to associate this now. That she could sit up and she had a choice.
Really while we sit with that installation one or two times we're looking for it to stay positive, make sure
no other intrusions come in. But that installation, holding that positive cognition with the image and I
want a shorter set of bilateral stimulation to condense it a bit. Now we're going to do a body scan and
make sure the brain and body are connected, especially with her, because she did process so
somatically. We want to make sure that's been cleared.
You started with all this activation in your body and you will truly notice a change in the physical

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sensations. It's actually quite amazing. And it's not something you really quite get until you have been
in the client's shoes and you do it yourself. But the change that way physically and sewmatically is
really profound. – somatically is really profound.
This is kind of the future part. Think back to yesterday, we kind of talked about the eight phases of
EMDR and also this three-prong approach where we looked at where this started, kind of current
stressors. And also sometimes it's important to do sort of a future scenario. I want you guy to see this
part because this is a really nice way to transition and look at how you can use this to focus on future
areas that might be causing some distress for them.
Again, we're just enhancing again the somatic sensations here really quickly with that belief, tying it
into this body perspective, as well.
We're kind of testing at this point when we do this how well something has been reprocessed. We're
going to ask her to bring up a place where she would now have to kind of face this fear or have an
interaction that maybe she's avoided or where she would normally get triggered.
We're gauging this future scenario. We say as we bring this up and you think about doing this in the
future, now we're gauging the positive cognition on how true does that belief that we want to hold,
right, of I'm powerful. How true does it feel when we think about having to go to the pool, right? Like
next week or whatever it is.
And think about doing this in the future.
If they come up with something like that where it's like no, I won't be 100% confident in knowing I'm
powerful until I actually do it.
You can do one of two things. You saw her first say notice your intention is powerful in that moment.
The other thing you can do is just what we did just a second ago where she said visualize yourself
doing this and being powerful in this moment. Engaging, responding, interacting, taking action with
what you are intending to do, what you want to do.
We're hoping to create this future image of this. One thing that we know what the mind can see or
what the mind can do, there's a lot of research and evidence behind this idea that if we can give them
a future kind of scenario, some vision asking, engaging the way they intend or want to, we know that
their chances of actually doing that or carrying that forward are going to be higher than if we didn't set
up kind of this future scenario.
Now again we're rating how true does it feel that we're powerful when we're thinking of getting in the
pool and taking action of this thing that seems so limiting.
It can be a cool thing to see. You think of how most people who have maybe had those limitations you
could have asked about it before. I'm not getting in the pool. That wouldn't happen. Think about the flip
that's occurred here.
It can also be calm place, right?
To help them with resolution.
A lot of the times at this phase, as well, this is where I like to kind of have that interaction. That talk
therapy where we get to say and share our perceptions, what we saw, what we thought was powerful.
What was their biggest ah-ha moment? What was the thing that was the most helpful that they came

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to terms with? Usually you'll hear things something like along these lines. They'll say, "It's so weird. I
had never thought about this" and it would be a specific detail about it. Or it would be like and all the
years I've spent like worrying about this, I had never considered this possibility or this option or
whatever it might be. So, very common to kind of hear that. But I do think it's important to kind of give
them that opportunity to kind of explore what those insights and realizations were. So, again, I like to
really show those two to give you a lens of what you can see through EMDR of just how different there
can be different styles within EMDR. There's also different ways that clients can process. We saw that
somatic processing and emotional visualization with a demo that I played for you guys this morning.
It's going to look very client centered and individual per client and even for you guys as providers. It's
one of the things that I like about EMDR. It's not as rigid as I think sometimes it's been portrayed to be.
But again, and I do want to be clear, using kind of this protocol, these phases 3-7, please don't use
these unless you have been trained in EMDR and you have done those things. Stick with kind of some
of those earlier coping and resource skills. But remember to really adequately use this in an
appropriate way, there's so much more to be learned of how to move through that a little bit more
efficiently. But just so guys at least get the look of okay this is what EMDR is. This is something I think
would be useful for my population with clients. Is this something that might help them work through
certain things? Is this a skill you want? You at least get to have a clear picture of what it looks like and
what it entails. And again, keeping in mind it's not a one-size-fits-approach we're kind of learning
about. We're going to go to break in a minute. Before we do, that I just wanted to remind you guys
when we come back, we are going to be talking about blocked processing. This one is good, as well.
Even if you're not using EMDR, these blocks in processing happen all the time when we're looking at
trauma. We're going to look at why those blocks occur and some ways we can reframe or work
through those within EMDR in particular, but you might also be able to use some of these in your own
trauma work with clients just as like open-ended reframing questions. We'll also go through some more
questions and then we'll get our day kind of wrapped up. So, thank you again all who have been on
attending. So grateful that you guys are here with us. Grateful to PESI that we're offering these free
tools for you to use. Grateful for this experience in general and for being a part of the PESI family.
Happy to have you all here with us. Enjoy your break. We'll see you back a quarter till. Thanks guys!
(Break))
(Music).
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Hi, everyone. Welcome back! We're down to our last hour! Yay! Okay.
I wanted to go to Ryan for a minute and ask questions.
Before we kind of jump into the last bit of our information here.
And then we'll get back into some stuff.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: I don't want to cut you short on time. Do you think 10 minutes you want
me to try to time out?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: You're fine for like 10 to 15 is probably fine, honestly. I might do 10 now. We
might do like 10 now and then I'll do a little bit of teaching and then I might take a few more before we
close out for the day.

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>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Okay, I'll roughly do ten. The first ones are kind of, oh maybe two of them
that talk about risks associated with EMDR. And then someone saying specifically they promise they
won't do this, speaking to the dangers of doing kind of these later phases 3-7, if you're not properly
trained, so, kind of risks of EMDR in general. Why I should not think I'm going to leave here and start
doing EMDR without additional training?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Yeah, one of the things that can happen is we're essentially opening up this
neural network of trauma. If you get that open and what often happens is we watch this, right, and
we're like oh, that doesn't look that hard. And then when you practice as the clinician, and I still feel
this way almost every time. Oh my gosh I hope this resolves or goes where it needs to because it just
happens when you're doing EMDR. You don't know where it goes. You really do have to trust in the
process. There can be layers of things that can be exposed. If you don't know how to handle those or
safely secure those, you can leaf leave this neural network of trauma opened and exposed which
causes damages. We need to know how to handle the barriers and blocks. Most of the time we get
trained and here is the smooth process. In real life it rarely follows that. Oftentimes there are these
derail moments. If you don't know how to do that or let's say you're starting on an incident like this
woman we just watched where you're working on a single incident and all of a sudden in the moment
of processing she says yeah, this is also really traumatic because my dad died when I was 17. We
started working with an incident where she almost drowned and now she's talking about an incident
where dad died. What do you do with those scenarios? If you have one that a open and you abandon
it and you don't acknowledge what comes up, you run the risk of exposing that or leaving them more
disregulated. It's important to practice this with other clinicians and there is consultation before you end
up using it. There's more you end up learning in additional training of how to prevent things that come
up especially when it comes to trauma or if someone dissociates. What do we do? That's part of those
reasons why we need more training with this before we kind of just jump in.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: And here somebody kind of was on that path. There's been a few of
these. The grief issue. When you're working, how does this look different if grief is a part of it?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: I love doing a lot work with EMDR and grief. There's some amazing things
that you can do with EMDR and grief. It's actually one of my favorite interventions to do, especially if
there's any sense of like a higher power that you can integrate.
I'll tell you guys this story. I kind of shared about this client yesterday. Her and her has had been in
recovery for a lot of years together. And he was just celebrating two years of sobriety. He was going
on a sober rider's ride and he died on the motorcycle. I had just seen her the day before it happened. I
had down couple's therapy before and individually with her. One of the reasons she comes in is she
struggled to connect with him. Everyone else says they have these experiences where they can feel
him around and his presence and I never feel that way. I'll use EMDR as part of that restoration team.
But in a way for her to feel that contact. I might say like okay, now we get to see I want you to imagine
you're seeing your husband. What would he say to you? You're overwhelmed by all these things you
now have to take on. What advice would he give you? What would he encourage you to do? It's one of
the times she feels as closely connected as she can to him since he's passed. Same thing. I actually

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used it the other day with a client similar. Her husband was mauled and killed by a grizzly bear three
years ago. And same thing. Has not been able to connect with this idea of him. And how to do
anything since his passing. And we use it very similarly that way of like what would he advise you to do
with the kids right now? Can we imagine bringing him into the picture? That can be a really nice
additive. Like where you want to envision them being. Where is he at now? What would that look like?
What would he want you to know even though he's not here. Flush.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Probably a really important one, don't know if you can touch on this more
later, but self-care stuff.
What do we do when we're working with these really challenging things and we can get triggered and
we're using up our own energy. What do we do to keep in the game?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: I'll be honest, you guys, as much as I love EMDR, there's rarely a day when
I'm just doing EMDR session back to back. I don't think you can provide it like really thoroughly that
way or efficiently because it does take a lot out of you. Just like it does a client. Even as a clinician,
even though you're not doing as much, you're still very like seeing the most vulnerable parts of
someone. So, even for me self-care has looked like learning what I can tolerate clinically with this
work. So, that might look like maybe I do, you know, two out of five sessions a day that have EMDR in
it. And I'm learning how to like titrate those so I'm not just doing session after session, right? Because
you kind of do need a break from that. And also self-care out of therapy, right? When we're not
working. Whatever that S. is. Obviously, a lot of mine is like working out, traveling, being outside.
Whatever kind of your vice is. I also think the coregulation piece is important. Noticing when you're
getting activated in a session with someone, what do you need to do to stay regulated? Whether it's
now you're being mindful of your breath. That's one thing I've actually liked about EMDR, like I said the
tapping, but seeing how I'm like tapping into my tuning into my body and how I've been responding can
also be really helpful for you guys as you kind of implement these more advanced skill sets with
trauma.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Someone is asking about understanding what's happening in the brain,
neurobio logically. What are the resources? Good books, good trainings, any suggestions?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: I really would just recommend honestly directly and I mentioned this
yesterday, but eye movement desensitization and reprocessing by Francine Shapiro, fourth edition.
We're accessing that neural network of trauma, we're holding it in the brain while we're adding bilateral
stimulation. So, naturally when we pull up a trigger the brain would send us into fight, flight, or freeze.
What this does is it's forcing the brain to just keep it in that yellow-light region. And then as it sits there
and the brain says, "Oh, this isn't like ultimate danger. There's nothing that's coming of this" the brain
is able to logically filter that out and move that from being stored in that neural network of trauma into
that normal memory consolidation. But I'd start with that eye movement desensitization and
reprocessing. Also, any of those that are like me and like to nerd out. They have some really good
EMDR journals that are really great. So, there's a magazine called Go With That, that I would
recommend. And there's another one that is an EMDR journal that comes out with specific research
articles that show the evidence around like different control studies, different types of EMDR that they

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use. So, I would definitely recommend those.

HAP. EMDR HAP has some great resources for that, as well as EMDRIA has some good stuff,
evidence-based stuff that would help you understand the neurobiology piece.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Watching the video. Someone had a question. The client was coughing.
Is it okay, would it have been okay to stop and check in with them? Or is this kind of where you're
referring to you have to be comfortable with them being uncomfortable? Or do we check in there and
check in on how they're doing if they seem like they're having somatic reactions.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Yeah, honestly a little bit of both. Sometimes I'll have clients where you see
them weeping. I've learned almost DBT, you ride the wave with them and give them permission to feel
it instead of telling them to shut it down or bring it back in. It depends on their tolerance level. It might
be that you're comfortable with them being uncomfortable. If you're unsure about that, always check in.
Tell me what's coming up. But that tells me that there's activation and processing going on and that's
part of why we'll sit with that.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: And probably the last one here because we're about 10 minutes in.
Documentation. A documentation question. What does that look like?
How much do you share?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Good question.
My answer is going to be a little bit tempered because I testify a lot in court. I'm an expert witness at
the state and federal level on cases. So, I've learned how to be a little bit more careful with what I put
in documentation to protect my clients or so that things aren't used against them. Honestly, when I do
an EMDR session, I have a binder in my office. I'm old-school that way. I have a notes app that I use,
as well, that's on our telehealth site where I'll put some stuff where I will do an inventory. I have like
files in my little binder, my EMDR binder for each client. I'll list out like their resources. Each of their
protocols. And then all I honestly put in my notes that are being submitted to billing and insurance and
client chart is really I say completed phase one of EMDR, taught calm place, client responded well. If I
do a protocol, I'll literally just say completed EMDR protocol, I'll put what the target was, and then I'll
put is if it was a complete session, if it was unfinished, or an incomplete session, I'll say how we closed
the session up and then sometimes I will put distress level started at a 10 was a complete fully
reprocessed session, reported that the SUD level was a one by the end. Completed all phases 3-7.
And I'll leave it vague like that to protect the client because a lot of what you end up finding with EMDR
is you see so much of that vulnerability that's so different than what you'd normally kind of talk about in
therapy.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Okay. I think that's it for now. I know you want to get through a few more.
Call me back on when you're ready to take a few more.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Okay. Thanks for the questions, you guys. And for hanging in for both days
especially in the middle of the week. We're going to talk about this blocked process for a minute here.
I'm going to go through a couple, two different documents that I'll put up for you guys because they're
actually good ones that you can use outside of EMDR, as well. Even if you're doing trauma treatment. I
will add those for you. I will add that path and tuning-in exercises, as well.

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But even if you don't do EMDR or aren't trained, some of these will be good at identifying some of
those kind of protective features that can come up.
So, oftentimes when we get into the processing of a traumatic memory or an incident, there can be
some specific blocks that we likely will run into. And we're going to talk about what we call in EMDR an
interweave. I believe interweaves exist in any type of trauma treatment. There are things we kind of
have to do to get the client to jump start that processing for them again. To get them out of that rigid
thinking.
And so this is one of my favorite resources, this first part is from Psychology Tools. I'm going to share
below. We'll look at the interweaves and open-ended questions we can use. A block in processing
means we've run into some resistance. They can't get past what they're seeing. Typically this will
occur if the client feels they're somewhat responsible for whatever we're working on. So, they've taken
on a sense of responsibility for what happened. They feel like their safety was threatened. So, truly
that innate like survival response of it's unsafe emotionally or physically. Or where they didn't feel like
they had a choice. So, where choices have felt limited or where they don't feel like they have options
or where they really feel like they don't have a sense of control. So, an interweave is essentially just an
open-ended question that you can interwe've for them. Right? That's going to help them get back
within that window of tolerance, but it's going to jump start, like I've said, that processing again. And
the goal really for us in EMDR is to stay out of the way, like I've said. But when you get some
advanced and really working with complex trauma and when you're processing those sessions, you
know, things can come up all over the place and it can feel like oh my gosh we started here with this
protocol and 10 other things have come up and I don't know where to go. And this is where
interweaves can be helpful in directing and guiding that process. This is going to assist them in
introducing that new adaptive information. And also helping them learn to integrate or make
connections that maybe they are rigid in thinking and not seeing. There's going to be some different
strategies you can use. I'm going to go through some examples with you and then I have one other
sheet that I really like that we'll look at, as well, that will be also a good way for reframing. I always
think of you can think of interweaves very similar to reframing activities or exercises.
So, what this will look like in EMDR is and these are again just examples. You can come up with
anything kind of along these lines. So, this might sound like a block will like like again an EMDR when
we've heard kind of the same thing over and over again. It's been about like three sets and they're kind
of just saying the same thing. We're not hearing that progression. So, we're going to say something
like maybe let's bridge back to a time that you remember that you felt this way before. Or let's imagine
we're rewinding the movie that we're watching. If we rewind that in time, what's another image or
another clip of this movie that's similar to what's coming up to you right now? Sometimes that will kind
of help kind of create that new connection or where this is coming from.
A basic one can be okay, I'm confused. Ever at fault or the victim. I'm confused, how could it be your
fault? That's interesting, you have an interesting reason for believing this. I want you to consider what
this might be. What if this was your child? What would you say to them? What would you say to that
child part of yourself that was abused? What would you say to that part of yourself now? What would

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you say if this was a close friend, what would you tell them? That's where I tie in the restoration team,
as well. If you can imagine the restoration team is there with you and they're seeing this play out on
the screen. Let's take that example that we just watched where she is saying remember when she ran
into the part in her processing where she continued to say I have a question. I have a question.
I might say I want you to imagine that restoration team they're kind of there with you. Can they help
you find an answer to that question? Or what do they see on the screen that maybe you didn't see or
maybe you're overlooking or choosing to not see? What would they help you kind of discover?
What did this child part of you or this younger part of you or this traumatized part of you need to hear
or know? Could you imagine saying that to them?
What do you wish you could have done?
Or said?
You must have a very important reason for believing this. How has this helped you? How long should
you punish yourself for this? If this was a crime, how long should they be punished? Who was really
responsible? Whose responsibility was it to keep you safe? Are you safe now? Can you choose now?
What would that part of yourself need to heal to feel safe to forgive yourself?
What would a good friend say to you? Can he or they hurt you now?
Notice how you survived. Notice who started it. Who was really in charge? What would your adult self
say to a child. How big were they and how big were you? How could you have stopped them if you
were little or smaller than them?
Essentially we're looking for reframing. We're getting them to explore that a little bit more. And
oftentimes, these are just examples. But oftentimes we'll use or develop an interweave based on what
they're sharing. So, this is where you do remain a little bit clinical in this process. So, why do you feel
like you were responsible for it? Or why was it easy to believe that you were responsible? Again, we're
getting them to just kind of explore and be curious about why they're feeling the way that they do or
why it's kind of stuck or rigid in the processing that they're having. Keep that in mind that really there
isn't really anything that's going to say hey this is kind of the interweave you should use. It's just
trusting your clinical judgment and clinical gut. Being in the moment with them. What is going to help
them figure out what are the connections you're seeing that you can help them kind of process. I'm
going to show you one other document that I like a lot of the time to utilize. In and out of EMDR
therapy, I think this is an excellent resource. This one is the interweaves one. I'll upload this one for
you guys because this one can be good even just for reframing if you're doing any type of trauma work
even outside of EMDR. But this other one where we see kind of blocked beliefs and we'll go through
this one. This one is from the work of Jim Knight who is an EMDR clinician. He has done a lot of really
good work within the framework of EMDR and addictions. Love a lot of his stuff. A questioner on
blocking beliefs. I'll take a few more questions before we kind of wrap up for the day and I have a little
closing out sendoff that I'll leave you with. But we'll go through this before we get to answering some
more of those questions. With these blocking beliefs, right, in here he talks about sometimes those
blocking beliefs they can just be right out there. We can see what the block is either like they're taking
on responsibility for this, they feel like they didn't have a sense of control, and it can be very apparent

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to us. It can be helpful for us to say even though you believe you can never get over this problem,
would it be all right. If they're open to that, then usually I'm going to stay the route of doing EMDR and
moving forward with this. On here you see at the end of this it says then let's stay with that and
continuing with EM means eye movements. So, think where you see EM it's like the bilateral
stimulation. But sometimes there can be a blocking belief that comes up and maybe we're not figuring
out what the block is or what's keeping them from progressing. And clients might become stuck and
we're kind of wondering what is going on. When that occurs I'll use this one in the early preparation
phase the barriers that you might run into. This is going to help us identify what those blocked or resis
resistant thoughts might be around particular issues. It's going to help make EMDR a little bit more
successful. We can utilize this that way. You can ask them to kind of rate each of the statements on
the next page that we'll look at. I either have them identify which ones are relevant or identify their top
five. This will help them make sense in just a second. Once we've identified what some of these
blocking beliefs are, there are some different things that we can utilize. We can say things like pulling
from the interweaves we just looked at. What would you prefer to think about yourself in regards to this
problem. We can allow them to sift through that and think through that. Honestly, most of the time this
will help get them past the blocked belief. For example, a man was working on an childhood incident of
emotional deprivation by his parents. He was blocked from the belief, which he rated as a six. He said
this is a problem that can only be resolved by my parents, meaning he has no control over this
problem. That they caused it, right? And he was apologizing for their neglect and so he wanted them
rather to apologize for their neglect. I asked him to say several times out loud while he had the bilateral
stimulation the following statement. I'm willing to be loyal to myself and completely accept myself, even
though this is a problem that I believe can only be solved by my parents. And this kind of borrows into
some of the addiction stuff that you'll see even if you end up utilizing EMDR and any addictions and
doing any trainings in that. One of the additives that they'll add at times for resourcing or enhancement
is they'll add a verbalization or a statement. For example, with calm place, it might be as they're
holding that image of calm place, they're verbalizing the mantra a couple of times. He says to use that
with blocks that that oftentimes can really help enhance or work through the block. So, he asked them
to say I'm willing to be loyal to myself and completely accept myself, even though this is a problem that
can only be solved by my parents. The repetition of this statement out loud can typically be necessary
for self-acceptance or that idea to begin to sink in, to work past that rigid thinking. He then was able to
get back past the initial target with more ongoing sets of bilateral stimulation. This procedure borrows
from this reversal correction, which actually originated from that field therapy and a lot of it is how they
tied it into that information processing within EMDR. In the case of this, it was a defense mechanism.
When it brought the shame into consciousness, it can be resolved. The basic idea is to ask the client
to repeat while you're doing the bilateral stimulation I accept or I love myself even though this
happened. It's like that reframing, right? And then we'll go back to the initial incident and we'll see if
there's any shift or progress in their thoughts as they continue to move forward. So, if you wanted to
use this and see hey, maybe what are some of the blocks or barriers that we might run into not just
with EMDR but trauma-processing as a whole, really like this one. Again, sometimes I will just have

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them identify specific maybe to each target or in general the problems that they have. Or maybe those
major targets or traumas that we're working through. I might fill this out for each specific incident if it's
complex trauma. What kind of the beliefs are, these blocked beliefs. So, it could be I'm embarrassed I
have this problem. If I ever sol solve this problem I'll lose part of who I am. I like people who have this
problem better than people who don't. I always say I want to solve this problem, but I never do. So,
we're having them identify those own barriers that are having them identify those doubts within
themselves, those negative beliefs getting in the way. I might have them pick the one that's the
strongest because that's usually going to be that protective mechanism that I run into first. I might have
them start with picking the one that is kind of at the top of the list, that seems to be a really big barrier.
And then I'll kind of look at and anticipate those to come up. So, if those do come up, same thing. I'm
going to use something like we just read in this example as kind of an opposition. Like if it's I'm em
bare embarrassed I have this problem. I want you to notice that you have the strength or the power to
let go of this embarrassment or that you have the strength and the power to allow yourself time to heal
this. That other people feel the same way. Whatever it might be that's going to counter this, right?
We also want to identify what they wish they would believe instead, too. Maybe we'll use that. What do
they wish they could believe. Instead of feeling embarrassed, what do they wish they could believe or
feel about this problem? That's what we would have them kind of state out loud, as well. This one can
be extremely useful that way of working through some of those blocks and really help us when we get
into some of those barriers and those protective kind of maladaptive behaviors or coping skills. It can
really help us jump start that processing and get them moving back in the right direction. Something
you kind of anticipate running into with EMDR. There's a whole variety of similar things like this where
you can integrate, like we've talked about, some of that parts work and other things from thought field
therapies or other modalities to utilize as those interweaves or bits of reframing. But I do think this is
something that will be useful and helpful for you guys.
With that being said, I do want to go back to just for the last little bit of any of those last-minute
questions that we want to get to. We'll take questions for a little bit and then I just have a little snippet
that I'll leave you guys with that I like to close out my trainings with. And then we'll go from there. But I
wanted to ask Ryan to kind of jump back on and join us and we'll take some more of those questions
for a minute and then we'll get into just kind of wrapping up for the day.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: First up. During processing with a client, have you ever experienced a
dominant resistant internal part that came up and that hijacked the process? If that's happened, how
did you deal with that?

>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: This happens all the time. I love internal family systems and part work. One
of my favorite things to do when this occurs, I do one of two things. I like to have either an interrogation
room where I invite them, they get to take this part in that's protective, it wants to take over the
session. It's creating blocks, it's not letting us kind of move forward. So, this part that wants to hijack
and take over. I'll say okay, this part of you that's really resistant or defensive, I want us to imagine
we're going to take him into this interrogation room with the part of you that kind of wants to do this

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work. And you two get to interrogate it out. You get to argue your points with each other. You get to
ask each other questions. Or maybe you just listen to this, you know, stronger, protective part kind of
act out. And usually you can soften that and work through that that way. Another one I like is using
what we call the courtroom. So, imagining that they're in a courtroom and they get to kind of debate
these sides out. Is there a way they can kind of work together or temporarily is there a way that we can
have permission to do this work? And then they can come back in and take over. But usually, you
have to let that part be heard. And those are two of the ways that I really like to utilize or implement
some of those techniques when there is a really strong protective role that comes into play.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: This one has been coming up off and on. But dissociative identity
disorder, is EMDR used in that context or not?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Yes, it is. Again, it requires additional training, and you spend a lot of time
doing more of a modified protocol and somatic work until you can really get them regulated and to stay
present. But there's a lot of modalities and a lot of research around the success of it being utilized with
DID. And again, the same, actually, what's interesting, the same lady that's kind of known for some of
those intellectual disabilities or like autism and some of those other special populations, she's also one
of the ones that does a lot of great work with dissociation. So, when I add her name to the resource
list,ly put that in there for you, as well, and make a note that she does stuff with DID, as well.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: And earlier you briefly mentioned brainspotting.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Yeah.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Really general. Talk about EMDR and brain spotting. Can you integrate
the two? Does that work?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: You know, I am not trained in brain spotting, but I've had a lot of clinicians
over the years and I've had several colleagues that are trained in brain spotting and they talk a lot
about there are some similarities and there's maybe some overlap, but there's also some big
differences there. But a lot of the people that have come, that I end up training in EMDR have already
been trained in brain spotting. And they talk about liking the integration of using EMDR and brain
spotting, kind of pulling from those two methodologies. But I see them as different. Obviously, EMDR
has more research and evidence base around it than brain spotting does.
But yeah. That's what I can speak to relating to that.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: And people looking for recommendations. What happens if you have
client who has beliefs or fears about EMDR from things they've heard, lots of anxiety because they've
heard stories about EMDR and you're asking them to trust the process. What do we do there to make
sure we can reassure, support, move forward if they're wanting to do it?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Sometimes I'll send a link, like the video that we watched that's on Youtube,
you know. Where they can see and know what to expect. I have several clients that have given me
permission to use things in trainings that I've seen in the past. So, sometimes I've even shared
snippets of those so they can see what it looks like when they get in there. And oftentimes that will
give them confidence to know what's going to come up. But most of the time they just need to be more
informed of what EMDR is, what's going to occur, and why we're doing what we're doing. And it will

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usually lead them to feeling a little bit safer. And start with trying out like the resourcing activities
because that's going to give them kind of a feel in that activity for what to do. But if they need more of
that psychoeducation, share some of those additional resources that will help them kind of educate
themselves about what occurs within EMDR.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: And here folks have kind of watched in the demos. Noticed that you
guide clients to enter in and to exit out of processes with a breath. Can you explain the utility of that
exactly?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: You know, honestly, I think a lot of it is just that grounding. It's bringing them
back to present, right? And a lot of it is to create that congruence, too. There's a lot of work and
research around that congruent breathing and that connection, the mirroring of the neural networks
between a client and how that can be creating. That breath in is allowing them to breathe. Think about
when we get activated, we go into like rapid breaths. Again, it's just kind of that grounding mechanism
to get them like okay, let's come back to center for a moment. I also like it as that like abstract way of
every time right breathe that in. Now we're going to let it go. We're not holding onto what's there.
Sometimes they just need kind of those little moments of validation and reminders.
But nothing fancy about it.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Okay. And this person asked about when you have this situation where
there's not as much verbal processing, how do you tell the difference between like a panic attack or
they're kind of spiraling versus this is just kind of helpful internal processing where they're not saying
much?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Yeah, usually if they do truly go outside of that window of tolerance and it is
a panic attack, you're going to hear more of the same thoughts every time. You're going to see
honestly processing shutdown. So, they're going to start seeing the same thing over and over of like I
just feel like I can't breathe or whatever it might be. Right? You'll hear kind of that repetition in sets. If
they are still in the window and we're just processing, you'll still, even like what we saw with this
woman, we would just hear the change of each body sensation or movement or what she was
experiencing. You're still just looking for those changes in processing and you're just noticing for where
that shutdown kind of comes in for a panic attack. Even somatically you can usually tune in to that.
They'll quit sharing or hyperfocus on one particular sensation that they're having.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Somebody was wondering if you ever end up with clients who you sit
back and let them be the director of this. Do they feel like you're not involved enough? There's
frustration, why aren't you more active or something like that? Does that come up ever? What do we
do with that?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: No. I've actually never had that come up. What I've found with EMDR, to be
honest, and I don't think you really get this piece until you've been the client and you've experienced
EMDR, which is part of why when you do go through training and certification, you are required to be
the client and to really practice because once you realize that you're fully immersed as the client in
your experience in what's coming up, it's honestly really nice. Most clients say it was kind of nice to
have permission, or wow, you really trusted me with this process. I've never had anyone do that

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before. It is kind of freeing and kind of nice. Where they're being taught and they're also being
intrinsically shown that we trust their judgment and insight of what's taking place. And just to know,
most of the time they'll report like just that we were there with them and that we sat in it with them. You
almost hear hands down like 10 out of 10 times that they actually see more seen and heard the less
involved. EMDR to me, to me I see it as being more immersed because you're in the most vulnerable
place with them in the inner workings of their mind. That's part of why I like the tactile stimulation when
they're in office and why I do congruent tappings. I want them to know I'm here with them but I do trust
them because they are in charge of their own kind of world. But I've never had anyone say I really
don't think you were involved enough. That's never been a thing. It's usually the opposite. Thank you
for giving me permission and notset not shutting that down. I've also found as a clinician and as a
client you almost develop this stronger connection to them because you do go through these depths of
their world and despair in different a different way than you would normally talk about it.

>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: And there's a question about therapists being aware of their body
expressions? Do we need to be aware if we're smiling?
Those kinds of things.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: A lot of times we don't notice it. I always notice this when I watch demos
back of what I've done. I wear my emotions a lot in my facial expressions like a lot of us do. We all
have this tendency to mirror back what someone is sharing with us. I see it all the time in my
responses. Oh, I look mad when I'm not mad. This look of pain or concern. So, yeah, being mindful of
that. To me it's also about after they share those things, maintaining eye contact, making them see like
or feel like they've been seen and heard after they've been vulnerable because EMDR feels very
vulnerable on the client side. But again, it's just wanting to know that someone is there in that with
them.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: And then, again, I think more people looking at what they do and wanting
to see if they're going to look at this further and if it makes sense for them to go further. I'm going to
give you the list again on some things if this makes sense in this scenario. What if I do group work?
Can I use EMDR in group work? What if I do a lot of work with eating disorders? Is it a good tool for
me there? And people have been working with someone who has been diagnosed with bipolar.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Yeah, all of those, honestly. And even with group modalities, there's specific
modalities that are within EMDR. There's one called GTEP.
It's specifically for group interventions. It is its own little training that you have to do and it's done a little
bit differently where they use kind of like these big sheets of paper and you kind of like do all of these
group interventions. Like I said, I love their resourcing activities and things like that for groups are
honestly really great to have. But there is a specific protocol for groups and even crisis intervention, as
well, that is nicely used, as well. Bipolar disorder, yes. Can be effective for that at times. Eating
disorders. A lot of the eating disorder therapists that I've trained have maybe done something like IFS
in the past because we know IFS is really effective for that population. And they've kind of said that
EMDR has really kind of helped be that missing link where they've been able to integrate some of the

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IFS with EMDR to make some good progress. I also like some of the addictive and compulsive
protocols for that population, as well, to work on urges. It can really help with that if the client is open
and willing. Again, EMDR is not just going to work because it's EMDR. The client still has to be willing
to be open to the process for it to work.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: And more people talking about practicing virtually. I know there's
probably a lot to say. You've got entire trainings on doing EMDR virtually. Any quick modifications that
you'd share with folks to kind of know how this looks again, the big points for practicing telehealth?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Honestly, just making sure that you have resourced again, making sure that
they're in a safe location, especially if there's any type of like interpartner violence, or if it's a kiddo that
you're working with. I just want to make sure they're safe ultimately to be able to share and no one is
going to use what's said against them so there's some privacy there. And then really safety planning
when it's virtual. So, I want to know who my point of contact is. So, if we somehow lose connection, I
want to have with me an immediate way that I can contact them and also making a plan of okay, if we
lose connection and we're in the middle of processing reviewing I want you to utilize this skill and this
skill. So, kind of like a safety plan like we would normally do. And then I want to have contact with you
within a set amount of time. So, making sure that you've safety planned around what to do if like worst-
case scenario happens and you kind of are like lose contact or something like that happens.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: For those who don't feel prepared for those moments of crisis, where
should they go? I don't feel as comfortable in the crisis situations as I should be.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: I would redirect you to doing anything with the ATIP model and I would also
tell you to do any of that restricted processing. So, EMD stuff. It's not about doing any of the trauma
work. It's really about bringing down the distress level. That's where I would say to go. And maybe
expanding the amount of resources you have, giving yourself some more options of skills to try that
way.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: I think you've talked about this a bit. But EMDR with some maybe there
wasn't abuse, but there was a lack of nurturing and they have self-esteem issues and those kinds of
things. Can be used really effectively for that. I think you said you particularly love that. I don't know if
you want to speak to that more for this person.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Yeah, I think one of the hallmarks that we really think about, really what gets
stuck for things that cause distress for us is the perception and the meaning that we have given
something. That doesn't just occur with trauma, but that happens a lot of the times when there is self-
esteem issues. That's really what EMDR targets. Part of what it's really targeting is the meaning that
this person has taken on, the perception of themselves, and this experience, and helping them to shift
that in a more positive way or rebuild it in a more positive way. And I've just seen that happen time and
time again like no other modality I've used with. Just raising people's self-efficacy, but even their self-
esteem.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Someone was mentioning in some of the demos, they haven't been able
to see the eyes of a client. They are wondering if you are doing eye movements is there anything
you're supposed to be looking for in particular in their eyes? Other than that they're following? Is there

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something in your eyes that you're supposed to be watching for?

>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: No, you're just watching for the tracking. Once they start to lose tracking if
your fingers are over here and their eyes are here and they're having difficulty, then it's time for us to
check in, like I've said. But that's what you're watching for. That they're tracking, that it's not too fast or
too slow. That's really kind of it.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: What do you do if the client doesn't change their rating of the
experience? They keep saying their score is seven. Can you leave it there?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: If it doesn't increase? Is that what they're asking, I guess?
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Yeah, it didn't really go too much further. Had a score and it doesn't
move.

>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Yeah, and it doesn't move then there's something blocking it from moving.
What's keeping it from not shifting? There's a belief there that's keeping it from not moving and having
them look at that and think about what that is. Oftentimes that will work with that. Quite nicely.
But I would typically ask more questions of who asked that about what they meant. But that's what I
think you mean by that question.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Someone looking for another resource recommendation. Insecure
attachment and EMDR.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Any of those attachment-based interventions, I did put on the additional
resource list some stuff by Laura Parnell and those book recommendations. She does one like
attachment-focused EMDR. And a lot of what they say within EMDR is when you're working with
insecure attachment or any of those kind of like attachment-related disorders that a lot of it is about
really trying to create a sense of attachment even if it's internal. And she does a really great job of
talking about the research and the evidence behind how even if it is just imaginal that that's still
creating a sense of attachment in our body and our mind that can still do some of that healing work.
So, a lot of the times that can be like really expanding that restoration team to a variety of other things.
It could be like people that represent brave people or an ideal mother or an ideal father. But it's really
expanding just this ideal of connections, but also with targeting things like boundaries with them, as
well.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Again, in that vain of I work with this type of client, is that something I
should look into. Some folks have worked with I don't know to call it offenders or someone who has
abused someone else? Does EMDR work in that context, as well? A client like that?

>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Yeah, okay here is my Megan bias coming out. Not unless they're motivated
to change. I think can it can also be used as a manipulation area for them. If there's no regard for what
they've done or if they meet that narcissistic or true offender category, it's just not going to be effective.

>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Client remembers, has a repressed memory. Comes up outside of
session. Just looking for kind of the suggestions of how that should get handled?

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>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: I would target that within EMDR. Okay, this came up. What was the worst
part about that coming up? Since you remembered this and it was repressed, what was the negative
belief around it? I do an entire session just around even it just being a repressed memory, not even
about the details of it, and working through a protocol that way.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: How often do you find that EMDR isn't a fit for folks? I think people want
to get a gauge. When is it not working or maybe you have somebody who doesn't seem to be the right
thing for them?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Of course with any intervention, honestly, it is. I always have clients that are
like meh, or maybe they just like resourcing and they don't really care to process or do anything like
that.
Yeah. I think that occurs all the time. If I were to say like out of five clients I typically will maybe have
like one that will be that way. Maybe two. Just depending on what the presenting issue is. But most of
the time it's still something that I introduce. Maybe it's something we also come back to. If they don't
want to do it, that's also fine, as well.
Again, that's client choice.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: How much emotion is appropriate to share at the end of a successful
process? If it went well?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Are you ready to judge me those who are still skeptics, feel free. Being
honest here. There have been times when I've had watery, tearful eyes with a client before. Not that
I'm going to do that every time. But if it's someone where you've seen the struggle and you've seen
them get to this place. It's not like I'm weeping, but that happens.
(No audio).
>> MADDIE: Megan, for some reason your audio isn't working.

>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Is that better? It randomly switched to my Air Pods that aren't even by me.
They're like wrap it up! Anyways. I have gotten emotional. It was so powerful. It was touching for me to
see that. I'm okay to share that. But again, own clinical discretion there. I know we're not all like that.
That's just me.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: There's been a few folks asking about EMDR after events like a fire or a
hurricane or a school shooting. And is this something people go in right away? You have this thing that
happened, EMDR can be something folks can go in. Is there a short version that's kind of for those
folks? Some kind of mass trauma?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Yeah, I'll put on here, I always feel like I'm going to spell this wrong. But
HAAP EMDR. If you look that up. They do a lot of that crisis response where you can go in and work
with the first responders or in cases of natural disasters or mass acts of violence, they have stuff like
that set up all the time, which I think is awesome. And they have some restricted processing kind of
stuff that you can do, as well. Another one that they call RTEP for crisis response. Keep in mind,
EMDR is something that has been used like I said in school shootings with things like Hurricane
Katrina, with 9/11. These are things that get pulled in, in kind of those humanitarian efforts to do some

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work because of how effective it is.

>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Maybe just a few more so you've got time to wrap up.
Have you used EMDR with seeking safety? Is that effective?

>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Oh, interesting question! Because I was recently in my spare time reading
an article on where someone, they had just put out a research study on integrating seeking safety with
EMDR. And it was fascinating to me! Of how they integrated some of the group stuff together and used
some of the EMDR interventions to teach them of the psychoeducation bits and pieces, but to help
them understand trauma and integrating them. It was fascinating! They had really good results with it.
So, yes! I haven't used that personally, but I was reading honestly like a week ago about this. That's
obviously something that other people are feeling similar about to whoever asked that question.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: And again somebody in this case, chronically ill folks, maybe they have
cancer or something of that nature and lots of anxiety of not quite knowing where that prognosis is
going. Good tool for working with that kind of individual?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: Yeah, I'm going to put that in the chat and Maddie will share it with you
guys, as well. Roger Solomon is a world-renowned expert with EMDR with grief and terminal illness.
Check out his work. He does a lot of amazing stuff within that realm and has a lot of research and
evidence around that.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: Maybe a good one to end on since we're talking about grief. In grief and
bereavement situations, is EMDR more effective before or after grief processing?
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: I think during. I think it can help the stages of grief honestly and help them
progress through each of the stages. And maybe you're using it in conjunction with each of the stages
of grief, as well. They also, Roger Solomon is also one of the ones who has – I'm sorry if I spelled any
of these names wrong – but he also has a good grief protocol that shows you how to mix EMDR
throughout the stages of grief, which is really nice.
>> RYAN BARTHOLOMEW: With, that I'm going to step out for the day. Thank you, again, Megan.
Thank you, everybody. We'll see you again sometime. We'll do it again.
>> MEGAN BOARDMAN: I'm going to close us out with my favorite way to close out trainings like this.
I'm going to leave you with this little story. It's one of my favorite things to close with and share. And
every time I share it, it's still powerful for me even though I've been sharing this story for years.
I'm going to leave you with this for us as clinicians.
I'm going to tell you this little story. about this tree.
So, when I was first kind of starting, I think in my first year doing some trainings for Oklahoma, – for
Oklahoma, for PESI! – this was before the pandemic. When you do live trainings. There are some
interesting places you get to go when you're a PESI speaker. Like Oklahoma. (Chuckling).
So, I was actually in Oklahoma doing a training. No offense to anyone that's on from Oklahoma. I had
never been to Oklahoma before.
You know, not sure, because you probably had to have a reason to go there, I hadn't. I go to
Oklahoma City. I'm doing this couple-day EMDR training. I'm asking these people as we're in there.

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What should I do while I'm here? What should be a check out. What's worth kind of seeing while I'm in
Oklahoma City. And there really isn't a lot going on there. They all kept saying oh you need to go to the
Oklahoma City Bombing Museum. I'm thinking oh my gosh, the last thing I want to do is go to this
memorial that's depressing after I've taught on EMDR. They keep bringing it up. On the last day, okay,
I'm going to go to the Oklahoma City Bombing Museum. You guys can relate to this part of the story
for sure. I get there and honestly it's an amazing museum that I recommend everyone goes to. It's very
well done. And anyways, this was the first like major U.S. terrorist attack that occurred in the U.S. And
the memorial is just done really nicely. You go to this building. They have it reexperiencing where you
listen to this call that was being like recorded from a nearby building and you can actually hear the
bomb go off. And then you go through the rest of the museum and you see just kind of the devastation
and impact. And for those of you that maybe remember, don't remember, but part of what made this so
devastating is that there was a day care in the building. Anyways, I go through this building. This is the
part that you can relate to. And I'm going through this museum. And it's all just, you know, touching but
powerful. And I'm like man! I'm not even getting emotional about this. What's wrong with me? I've
become desensitized. I'm going through this thing. At the end, you kind of end back down. They have
like this gift shop, the bookstore. And I see this book about the Survivors' Tree, or the Tree of Hope, or
whatever. I call it the Survivors' Tree, because it's become my tree. Anyways, I'm like oh, that's
interesting, right? So, I'm going to tell you the story about this tree and tell you more about kind of
where I started with this story. But essentially, this tree was planted by the first settlers that come in
that settle in the Oklahoma City territory. And they plant this American Elm tree. Over the years it
grows. A big, beautiful, vibrant tree. As the city of Oklahoma kind of expands, the land ends up getting
sold to the city and then they develop it, but they leave this tree because this tree provides, it's this big,
established tree. It's an older tree and provides this nice shade. They decide to leave it and it actually
is a tree that's close to the Oklahoma City building. So, this is right after the bombing occurred and we
can see some of the devastation here.
And this is a picture again of the bombing as it occurred. And part of what made this devastating was
where the bomb was placed in the parking garage. So, with that, what happened was it disrupted a lot
of the foundational systems for buildings. I mean it affected things in a four and five-block radius. And
also there was a lot of vegetation and some of the greenery or whatever, the root systems were
completely impacted and traumatized and kind of devastated and killed.
So, right after this bombing occurs. Again, here is another picture of it. It takes weeks and months and
upon months for them to go through. And at first look for survivors. And victims of this fatal attack. And
this tree kind of becomes instrumental during this time. It's one of those things that people would come
because it was still erect, they would sit against it and there are pictures of first responders who sit
under this tree. And victims' families and survivors' families that come and they wait by this tree to see
who is going to be pulled out. This continues on. And then as they eventually kind of get this building,
they go through all the demolition work and they go through finding the remains and everything like
that, they're deciding what to do. They know that they're going to build a memorial here. And they're
kind of trying to decide what should we do with this area and kind of the grounds of this area. This is a

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picture of the tree right after the bombing. And there's some other pictures of it with car parts, pieces of
cars in it. It's completely blackened. But for whatever reason it remains in tact. Anyways, they decide
they're going to do this memorial there. They have a city council meeting. They're showing the plans of
what they're going to do. And on it they're showing that they're going to take, you know, cut this tree
down. So, a lot of the first responders, the victims' families, and the survivors' families that are at this
meeting say wait, you can't tear this tree down. This tree was a beacon of hope for us during this time
while the demolition was taking place, while they were trying to find victims and survivors. This tree
has represented something to us. You cannot tear this tree down. So, the city of Oklahoma says okay,
fine. We'll have an arborist come in and look at the root system. And if he says the tree is still alive and
will survive, then we'll agree to leave the tree. And again, this tree is just like blackened, right? So,
anyways, the arborist comes and looks at the tree and he says there is no way this tree is surviving.
The root system has been completely damaged, it's been completely demolished. There's no way this
tree will ever have life to it again. The tree is dead. So, again they present this at city council. People
petition it once more and say no. Wait till spring. You can't tear this tree down. Finally, the city of
Oklahoma agree. They say okay, whatever. We'll leave the tree till spring, but if the spring does not
sprout life, like the tree is going to come out. Right? And they're kind of anticipating this to happen.
During this time, the tree is so weak that it can't even support itself. It has to be braced up. And it has
to be held up because the root system is ultimately damaged and they're kind of just waiting to see
what's happening. The city of Oklahoma is kind of anticipating yeah, we're going to tear this tree down,
right? And then sure enough in the spring this tree sprouts life again. And the arborist comes back out
and he says there is no way that this tree should have any life left. Like I looked at this root system.
This tree was completely demolished, the root system was completely destroyed. There is no way this
tree could have life to it. And it did. So, this is the tree today. And what they ended up doing is they
took the seeds from the first sproutings of this tree and they still continue to do this. And they gave
them to the victims and survivors' families to plant their own elm tree. And it's now a historical and
national monument because of the unlikelihood that it sprouted, right? But this is what I want to leave
you with. I go through this building, right? And I get out to this tree and I just started crying.
And it wasn't because of the tree, but it's what the tree represented to me.
And as I looked at that tree, right, this big, vibrant, beautiful tree with all of its like blackened root
system and bark and everything, what I saw in that tree was I saw myself. And I saw every single
client that's come to me that's been told that there's no life left in them. That that's as good as it gets.
That they might as well give up. That there's no hope for them. This tree reminds me every time I
share this why I do what I do. Because there is always life left. Always. No matter how devastating a
circumstance may be. No matter what you've been told you can't do, there is always life left. I just want
to leave you with this, because we get the special gift of the clients that we work with, but we get to
remind people that there is always life left. And I hope you will remember that for yourself. But share
that with your clients because as a survivor myself, that's all I ever needed to know to heal myself, as
well. So, I want to say thank you for being with me the last two days. I hope you guys got a lot of really
good things out of this training. Thanks for letting me share all of my knowledge with you guys, I hope

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you got some good stuff. If you have any questions or you want future trainings, reach out. To the
team at PESI. And also you can find me on social media and online. And I'll make sure to get some of
these additional resources uploaded onto the Google Drive for you guys in the next day. And again, I
just want to say a big thanks and praise to PESI for putting on amazing events like this. That give you
guys opportunities and insights into tools and techniques that we so desperately need as therapists.
So, thank you. And I hope you guys have a great rest of your week and I look forward to seeing you
again in future trainings. Thank you. And thanks to Ryan and Maddie. We'll see you guys next time.

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