My Non-violence

55. AN INTERESTING DISCOURSE — I

The Scope of Ahimsa

The first question was about the limits and implications of Ahimsa and the
extent of its applications. Should one stop with the human species or extend it
to all creation?

Gandhiji said: "I was not prepared for this question. For the Congress Ahimsa is
naturally confined to the political field and therefore only to the human
species. Hence out-and-out non-violence means for our purpose every variety of
non-violence on the political field. In concrete terms it covers family relations,
relations with constituted authority, internal disorders and external aggression.
Put in another way it covers all human relations."

"Then what about meat-eating and egg-eating? Do they consist with non-
violence?"

"They do. Otherwise we should have to exclude Musalmans and Christians and a
vast number of Hindus as possible co-workers in Ahimsa. I have known many
meat-eaters to be far more non-violent than vegetarians."

"But what if we had to give them up for the sake of a principle?"

"Oh, yes, we would, if we had to compromise our principle. Our principle is

defined as I have shown already."

A Wrong Analogy

"If, as you have said, Polish resistance to the German invasion was almost non-
violent, and you would thus seem to reconcile yourself with it, why do you
object to the Wardha resolution of the Working Committee?" "Surely," said
Gandhiji, "there is no analogy between the two cases. Ii" a man fights with his
sword single-handed against a horde of dacoits armed to the teeth, I should say
he is fighting almost non-violently. Haven't I said to our women that, if in
defence of their honour they used their nails and teeth and even a dagger, 1

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should regard their conduct non-violent? She does not know the distinction
between Himsa and Ahimsa. She acts spontaneously. Supposing a mouse in
fighting a cat tried to resist the cat with his sharp beak, would you call that
mouse violent? In the same way, for the Poles to stand valiantly against the
German hordes vastly superior in numbers, military equipment and strength,
was almost non-violence. I should not mind repeating that statement over and
over again. You must give its full value to the word 'almost'. But we are 400
millions here. If we were to organize a big army and prepare ourselves to fight
foreign aggression, how could we by any stretch of imagination call ourselves
almost non-violent, let alone non-violent? The Poles were unprepared for the
way in which the enemy swooped down upon them. When we talk of armed
preparation, we contemplate preparation to meet any violent combination with
our superior violence. If India ever prepared herself that way, she would
constitute the greatest menace to world peace. For, if we take that path, we
will also have to choose the path of exploitation like the European nations.
That is why I still regret the moment when my words lacked the power of
convincing the Sardar and Rajaji. By having passed that resolution we
proclaimed to the world that the Ahimsa we had subscribed to all these years
was not really Ahimsa but a form of Himsa."

Administering Non-violently

Q, "How will you run your administration non- violently?"

A. "If you assume that we would have won independence by non-violent means,
it means that the bulk of the country had been organized non-violently.
Without the vast majority of people having become non-violent, we could not
attain non-violent Swaraj. If, therefore, we attain Swaraj by purely non-violent
means, it should not be difficult for us to carry on the administration without
the military. The goondas too will then have come under our control. If, for
instance, in Sevagram we have five or seven goondas in a population of seven
hundred who are non-violently organized, the five or seven will either live
under the discipline of the rest or leave the village.

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"But you will see that I am answering the question with the utmost caution, and
my truth makes me admit that we might have to maintain a police force. But
the police will be after our pattern, and not the British pattern. As we shall
have adult suffrage, the voice of even the youngest of us will count. That is
why I have said that the ideally non-violent State will be an ordered anarchy.
That State will be the best governed which is governed the least. The pity is
that no one trusts me with the reins of government! Otherwise I would show
how to govern non-violently. If I maintain a police force, it will be a body of
reformers."

"But," someone retorted, "You had the power in the Congress?"

"That was a paper-boat," said Gandhiji. "And then you must not forget that I
never spared the Congress ministries. Munshi and Pantji came in for a lot of
strictures from me. As I have said in another connection even the dirty water
from the gutter, when it mixes with the water of the Ganges, becomes as pure
as the Ganges water; even so I had expected even the goondas would work
under Congress discipline. But evidently our ministers had not attained the
purifying potency of the fabled Ganges."

"But," said Shri Kher, intervening at this stage, "the Congress ministers had no
non-violent power with them. Even if 500 goondas had run amok and had been
allowed to go unchecked, they would have dealt untold havoc. I do not know
how even you would have dealt with them."

"Surely, surely," said Gandhiji, "I had rehearsed such situations. The ministers
could on such occasions have gone out and allowed themselves to be done to
death by the goondas. But let us face the fact that we had not the requisite
Ahimsa. We went in with our half-baked Ahimsa. I do not mind it, inasmuch as
we gave up power the moment we felt we should give it up. I am sure that, if
we had adhered to strictest non-violence during these two or three years, the
Congress would have made a tremendous advance in the direction of Ahimsa
and also independence."

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"But," said Balasaheb, "four or five years ago when there was a riot, and I
appealed to the leaders to go and throw themselves into the conflagration, no
one was ready."

"So you are supporting my argument. You agree that our loyalty to Ahimsa was
lip-loyalty and not heart- loyalty. And if even the half-baked Ahimsa carried us
a long way, does it not follow that thorough Ahimsa would have carried us very
far indeed, even if it had not already brought us to the goal?"

Non-violent Army

"But we cannot visualize how you will stand non-violently against a foreign
invasion."

"I cannot draw the whole picture to you because we have no past experience to
fall back upon and there is no reality facing us today. We have got the
government army manned by the Sikhs, Pathans and Gurkhas. What I can
conceive is this that with my non-violent army of, say, two thousand people I
should put myself between the two contending armies. But this, I know, is no
answer. I can only say that we shall be able to reduce the invader's violence to
a minimum. The general of a non-violent army has got to have greater presence
of mind than that of a violent army, and God would bless him with the
necessary resourcefulness to meet situations as they arise."

Shri Kher now raised a philosophical question. "The world," he said, "is made up
of pairs of opposites. Where there is fear, there is courage too. When we walk
on the edge of a precipice we walk warily, for we have fear. Fear is not a thing
to despise. Will your non-violent army is above these pairs of opposites?"

"No," said Gandhiji, replying in the same philosophical terminology. "No, for the
simple reason that my army will represent one of the pair — Ahimsa — out of
the pair of Himsa and Ahimsa. Neither I nor my army is above the pair of
opposites. The state of gunatita, in the language of the Gita, rises above Himsa
and Ahimsa both. Fear has its use, but cowardice has none. I may not put my
finger into the jaws of a snake, but the very sight of the snake need not strike

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terror into me. The trouble is that we often die many times before death
overtakes us.

"But let me explain what my army will be like. They need not and will not have
the resourcefulness or understanding of the general, but they will have a
perfect sense of discipline to carry out faithfully his orders. The general should
have the quality which commands the unquestioning- obedience of his army,
and he will expect of them nothing more than this obedience. The Dandi March
was entirely my conception. Pandit Motilalji first laughed at it; he thought it to
be a quixotic adventure, and Jamnalalji suggested instead a march on the
Viceroy's House! But I could not think of anything but the salt march as I had to
think in terms of millions of our countrymen. It was a conception that God gave
me. Pandit Motilalji argued for some time, and then he said he must not argue,
as after all I was the general and he must have faith in me. Later when he saw
me in Jarnbusar he was completely converted, for he saw with his own eyes the
awakening that had come over the masses. And it was an almost magical
awakening. Where in history shall we find parallels of the cool courage that our
women displayed in such large numbers?

"And yet none of the thousands who took part in the movement were above the
average. They were erring, sinning mortals. God has a way of making use of the
most fragile instruments and remaining Himself untouched by everything. Only
He is gunatita.

The Real Equipment

"And then what after all is the army that wins? You know Rama's reply to
Vibhishana when the latter wondered how Rama would be able to conquer a foe
like Ravana, when he had no chariot, no armour, nor any shoes to his feet?
Rama says:

"The chariot, my dear Vibhishana, that wins the victory for Rama is of a
different sort from the usual one. Manliness and courage are its wheels;
unflinching truth and character its banners and standards; strength,
discrimination, self-restraint and benevolence its horses, with forgiveness,

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mercy, equanimity their reins; prayer to God is that conqueror's unerring

charioteer, dispassion his shield, contentment his sword, charity his axe,
intellect his spear, arid perfect science his stout bow. His pure and unwavering
mind stands for a quiver, his mental quietude and his practice of yama and
niyama stand for the sheaf of arrows, and the homage he pays to Brahmanas
and his guru is his impenetrable armour. There is no other equipment for
victory comparable to this; and, my dear friend, there is no enemy who can
conquer the man who takes his stand on the chariot of Dharma. He who has a
powerful chariot like this is a warrior who can conquer even that great and
invincible enemy — the world. Hearken unto me and fear not."

"That is the equipment," added Gandhiji, "that can lead us to victory. I have not
retired from the world, nor do I mean to. I am no recluse. I am content to do
what little work I can in Sevagram and give what guidance I can to those that
come to me. What we need is faith. And what is there to be lost in following
the right path? The worst that can happen to us is that we shall be crushed.
Better to be crushed than to be vanquished.

"But if we had to equip ourselves violently, I should be at my wit's end. I cannot

even think out an armament plan, much less work it. On the other hand my
non-violent plan is incredibly simpler and easier, and with God as our
Commander and Infallible Guide where is there cause for any fear?"

Sevagram, 21 -8-'40 M. D.

Harijan, 25-8-1940

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56. AN INTERESTING DISCOURSE — II

A Sister's Questions

Q. "May a non-violent man possess wealth, and if he may, how can he keep it
non-violently?"

A. “He may not own any wealth, though he may possess millions. Let him hold
it in trust. If he lives among dacoits and thieves, he may possess very little,
indeed little beyond a loin-cloth. And if he does this, he will convert them.

"But you must not generalize. In a non-violent State there will be very few
dacoits. For the individual the golden rule is that he will own nothing. If I
decided to settle and work among the so-called criminal tribes, I should go to
them without any belongings and depend on them for my food and shelter. The
moment they feel that I am in their midst in order to serve them, they will be
my friends. In that attitude is true Ahimsa."

Q. "How is one to protect the honour of women?"

A. "I am afraid you do not read Harijan regularly. I discussed this question years
ago, and have discussed it often since. The question may be discussed under
two heads: (1) how is a woman to protect her own honour? and (2) how are her
male relatives to protect it?

"As regards the first question, where there is a nonviolent atmosphere, where
there is the constant teaching of Ahimsa, woman will not regard herself as
dependent, weak or helpless. She is not really helpless when she is really pure.
Her purity makes her conscious of her strength. I have always held that it is
physically impossible to violate a woman against her will. The outrage takes
place only when she gives way to fear or does not realize her moral strength. If
she cannot meet the assailant's physical might, her purity will give her the
strength to die before he succeeds in violating her. Take the case of Sita.
Physically she was a weakling before Ravana, but her purity was more than a
match even for his giant might. He tried to win her with all kinds of
allurements but could not carnally touch her without her consent. On the other

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hand, if a woman depends on her own physical strength or upon a weapon she
possesses, she is sure to be discomfited whenever her strength is exhausted.

“The second question is easily answered. The brother or father or friend will
stand between his protegee and her assailant. He will then either dissuade the
assailant from his wicked purpose or allow himself to be killed by him in
preventing him. In so laying down his life he will not only have done his duty,
but given a new accession of strength to his protegee who will now know how
to protect her honour."

"But," said one of the sisters from Poona, "there lies the rub. How is a woman to
lay down her life? Is it possible for her to do so?"

“Oh!” said Gandhiji, "any day more possible for her than for man. I know that
women are capable of throwing away their lives for a much lesser purpose.
Only a few days ago a young girl of twenty burnt herself to death as she felt she
was being persecuted for refusing to go in for ordinary studies. And she
perished with such cool courage and determination! She ignited her sadi with
an ordinary oil-light and did not so much as raise a cry, so that the people in
the neighbouring room were unaware of the happening until all was over. I do
not give these details to commend her example, hut to show how easily woman
can throw away her life. I, at any rate, am incapable of this courage. But I
agree that it is not the external light but the inner light that is needed. "

The same sister wondered how one was to avoid anger and violence altogether
in dealing with children. "You know our old adage," said Gandhiji laughing
heartily, "Play with him till he is five, hammer him for ten years, treat him as
your friend when he is sixteen." "But," he added, “don’t you worry. If you have
to be angry with your child on occasions, I shall call that anger non-violent
anger. I am speaking of wise mothers, not the ignorant ones who do not deserve
to be mothers."

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Central Teaching of the Gita

The discussion again took a serious turn with a challenging question on the
philosophy of the Gita: “Is the central teaching of the Gita selfless action or
non-violence?"

"I have no doubt that it is anasakti — selfless action. Indeed I have called my
little translation of the Gita Anasa- ktiyoga. And anasakti transcends Ahimsa.
He who would be anasakta (selfless) has necessarily to practise non-violence in
order to attain the State of self-lessness. Ahimsa is, therefore, a necessary
preliminary, it is included in anasakti, it does not go beyond it."

"Then does the Gita teach Himsa and Ahimsa both?"

"I do not read that meaning in the Gita. It is quite likely that the author did not
write it to inculcate Ahimsa, but as a commentator draws innumerable
interpretations from a poetic text, even so I interpret the Gita to mean that, if
its central theme is anasakti, it also teaches Ahimsa. Whilst we are in the flesh
and tread the solid earth, we have to practise Ahimsa. In the life beyond there
is no Himsa or Ahimsa."

"But," said Balasaheb Kher, "Lord Krishna actually counters the doctrine of
Ahimsa. For Arjuna utters this pacifist resolve:

‘Better I deem it, if my kinsmen strike, to face them weaponless, and bare my
breast to shaft and spear, than answer blow with blow. '

And Lord Krishna teaches him to answer blow with blow."

What to Do?

"There I join issue with you," said Gandhiji. "Those words of Arjuna were words
of pretentious wisdom. 'Until yesterday,' says Krishna to him-, 'You fought your
kinsmen with deadly weapons without the slightest compunction. Even today
you would strike if the enemy was a stranger and not your own kith and kin!'
The question before him was not of non-violence, but whether he should slay
his nearest and dearest."

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Again the questioners came down to solid earth, and began to put questions
about the Congress and the attitude f those who believed in complete non-
violence. Gandhiji explained that they should refrain till he gave the word. He
wanted still to plead with the leaders who had passed the Poona resolution. He
expected to show them that the Congress would lose all its prestige if they
adhered to the new policy. But the question had to be dealt with patiently. On
the other hand it did not matter even if the Congress resolution received no
response. The resolution was as good as enforced, when it was deliberately
passed, and their duty did not alter with refusal of the government to respond.
"Besides," he added, "there is an inherent flaw in the Poona resolution. It
should be obvious to the meanest understanding that, if you think that you
cannot do without arms in meeting foreign aggression, they would a fortiori be
needed in dealing with daily disturbances — internecine feuds, dacoities and
riots. For organized unarmed resistance against an organized invasion is any day
easier than deliberate Ahimsa in face of a dacoit who breaks into your house at
night. That calls for Ahimsa of the highest type."

Sevagram, 26-8-'40 M. D.

Harijan, 1-9-1940

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