User talk:The dog2

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Again, welcome! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:22, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Zh-dial and Babel

Hi, thanks for your edits on the dialectal synonyms. I'd appreciate it if you could make a userpage with Babel to let us have an idea of your linguistic capabilities. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:29, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm currently travelling, but I'll do it when I get back from my trip. The dog2 (talk) 07:50, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Great, thanks! Have fun on your trip! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:56, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Chaozhou and Shantou

Hi, I'm just wondering if you have specific sources on these. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:07, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

For some of them yes. These are some examples: [1] and [2]. There are plenty of videos online that teach you basic Teochew, and in many cases, it's very similar to Hokkien, so even if the characters are not given, you can often deduce what they are based on the Hokkien characters. The dog2 (talk) 19:11, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

The main problem with sources like these is that they often treat Chaozhou and Shantou as the same (as "Teochew"). I know there are slight pronunciation differences between the two, but I don't know if they are always the same in their vocabulary. I mean for basic things, they're probably the same, but there's a possibility for differences. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:16, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

I see your point. I haven't come across any vocabulary differences yet though admittedly, my Teochew is very rudimentary; certainly at a lower proficiency level than my Hokkien and Cantonese. I agree that the basic vocabulary is likely to be the same, while things could very well be different for more advanced stuff. The dog2 (talk) 19:33, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, there isn't much published on the differences between the dialects at the lexical level. Most focus on the phonetic/phonological differences, which is understandable since it's the most obvious kind of variation. Anyway, thanks for your contributions so far! Keep it up! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:40, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Taiwan ≠ Taipei, Kaohsiung and Tainan

There is some degree of variation in Taiwan, so it would be incorrect to think that if you hear something in Taiwanese media, then it must be used in Taipei, Kaohsiung and Tainan. For Tainan, I usually base it on 臺灣閩南語辭典, which gives 豬仔. (The dictionary is kind of ambiguous for single characters, so I've left that out.) I'm not saying that it's not used in Taipei and Kaohsiung, but I think we need to be a little more cautious, especially when there are two or more forms used. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:18, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Point taken. Sure, I understand that there are differences between different parts of Taiwan, but I was mainly under the impression that it was mostly pronunciation rather than vocabulary. When you compare Taiwan with mainland China, then you start to see more vocabulary differences (eg. 霜條 vs 枝仔冰), and when you get down to Singapore, the differences become even more pronounced. The dog2 (talk) 21:26, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Even within Taiwan there are differences in vocabulary, such as 臭柿仔 vs. 柑仔蜜 for tomato. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:05, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Just wanted to reiterate... just include Taipei and Kaohsiung in "General Taiwanese", and only do add something if you're sure there is only one way to say something in Taiwanese. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:26, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Shanwei and Haifeng

You seem to be conflating the two. I think they're slightly different and should be treated separately. I think 茶 is used in Haifeng as well, so I didn't revert it. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:39, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia seems to indicate that the Haifeng dialect is spoken in Shanwei. Is that a mistake? The dog2 (talk) 17:42, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

I guess Wikipedia is using the term loosely. Haifeng dialect spoken in Haifeng is slightly different from the dialect spoken in Shanwei proper (Chengqu). For example, Haifeng /-ei/ is Shanwei /-oi/ in the characters 鞋, 買, 睇 and 街. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:54, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

A few things on dialectal synonyms

Hi, I just wanted to thank you for working on these modules. It's nice to have someone else working on it. There are just a few things you need to take note of:

• Whenever you make a new module, please make the corresponding map (Template:zh-dial-map).
• On the entries where you've added a table, remove all synonyms that are already included in the table
• Try to put the table on every entry that is relevant.

Thanks and stay safe! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:13, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Sure, but I don't have the required software to make maps. The dog2 (talk) 20:40, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

You don't need any software! :D It's like this. —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 21:03, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Jieyang

Hi, please let me know what sources you're using for Jieyang. As I've said before, if you're just looking through videos, please put the link in the edit summary. It makes it much easier to verify. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:05, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Sure, one of them is this video. It is definitely Jieyang because of the way they say "sleep". That pronunciation of 夗 is a dead giveaway because no other Teochew speakers pronounce it that way. Other videos I have used are [3], [4] and [5]. Let me know what else you need. The dog2 (talk) 18:14, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Another indicator is -êng for -ing in other dialects. That being said, I feel like these are just indicators, not necessarily "dead giveaways". There's bound to be dialectal mixing when the people can travel around (even within the Chaoshan area). When we say "Jieyang" or any other city/town without qualification, we want to be specific to the urban area. It's hard to guarantee that anything is from Jieyang proper. Not every video has 夗, so unless we "stalk" the speaker to find out their background, it's hard to verify. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:29, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung:For the guy on Tencent Video (正小滔), I actually went to do a Google search on his background, and it appears that he is from Jieyang. The way he pronounces words also fits into the pattern for someone from Jieyang.

But yes, I see your point. In Singapore, you can clearly see dialect mixing between Hokkien and Teochew, and while they are still distinct, if the government had not instituted the Speak Mandarin Campaign, it is certainly possible that they would eventually merged into a single dialect through dialect levelling. In Taiwan you can see that the Teochews have been completely assimilated into the Hokkiens, and nobody actually speaks Teochew anymore. The dog2 (talk) 18:51, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Creating entries based on unreliable sources

Hi, I think you need to be a little more careful with creating entries, even more care than with the dialectal synonyms. Please try to check a few more reliable sources rather than just videos (even if the person talking is a professor or something like that) or "random" websites. The videos are often not produced by the professors themselves - they're just talking and there are editors who help them make them (who often make mistakes). Websites are often not durably archived and difficult to know if they are necessarily reliable. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:37, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I usually do a Google search to see if these idioms are mentioned elsewhere before I create articles, but I'll try to be more careful. Speaking of which, if a professor is actually teaching an expression in a video, shouldn't we be fairly confident that that expression exists? If the editor included an expression that doesn't exist, I'm pretty sure the professor would have picked it up and told them to change it. The dog2 (talk) 02:59, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the professor is probably sure about an expression, but many of these expressions may be uncommonly used - so editors wouldn't be questioning it even if they haven't heard of it. Also, I'm not sure if you understood me; while the professors may make a mistake (in video), the editors are more likely to be the ones in error when they write things on the screen. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:20, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: OK, I see what you mean now. The dog2 (talk) 03:23, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Tong'an

Umm, just wondering how you knew that TikTok user (苏千岁是个凉凉主播) is from Tong'an. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:36, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Her location is marked as Tong'an. The dog2 (talk) 02:40, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Alright. Her accent does seem to be Tong'an. It's hard to know if she moved there from other parts of the Min Nan region or grew up there, though. I guess it's okay. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:50, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Here she explicitly says she's from Tong'an, so we have confirmation. The dog2 (talk) 05:50, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Okay, thanks! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:53, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Hainanese

I've gone through just a few of your Hainanese edits and have found problems in a lot of them. Please refrain from adding these unless you have a source (a native speaker informant or videos at the least)! Don't just work off from your knowledge since you're clearly not a native speaker. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:14, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I did base them off videos, as well as words taught to me by my Hainanese relatives. I can give you some of the source videos later when I get home from work. Usually, I try to figure out the characters based on similarities to Hokkien and Teochew, and recognising characteristic sound shifts (eg. Hokkien /Teochew "s/tz" -> Hainanese "t", Hokkien/Teochew "ts" -> Hainanese "s"). Those that I wrote Romanised forms for are the ones for which the Hokkien/Teochew words are clearly not etymologically related to the Hainanese word. The dog2 (talk) 16:26, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

The romanized forms should not be there as actual words that display. They're tentative and don't follow any standard Hainanese romanization. We also don't allow romanizations as entries unless it's POJ for Hokkien. If you don't put a source in the edit summary, I will assume you don't have a source. If your relatives are not directly from Wenchang (second/third/etc. generation immigrants), I don't think we should consider that Wenchang. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:36, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: So how do we handle the words not etymologically related to the Hokkien and Teochew words then? The dog2 (talk) 16:45, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

We have to find the characters that Hainanese people would use, just like for any other variety of Chinese. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:48, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Do you have any sources to recommend for that then? Even in Hainan, you don't really see Hainanese writing because everything is written in standard Mandarin, and people will just recognise the Mandarin characters but say the Hainanese word. The dog2 (talk) 16:52, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Not much online. I could email you some stuff if you want. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:56, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Sure, that would be helpful. I have activated the email use function for my account. Thanks. The dog2 (talk) 17:04, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:21, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @Justinrleung: Thanks. By the way, if you have the resources, do you think you can add Qionghai to the module? Since Hainanese opera is primarily based on the Qionghai dialect, I think it can be considered an important one. And also, after Wenchang, the second largest number of Hainanese people in Singapore and Malaysia trace their ancestry to Qionghai. The dog2 (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

It seems like you're not taking the time to check characters with the resources I sent you. If you need help on how to use them, please let me know. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:14, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Yeah, it's a bit tricky, and I'm not the most familiar with IPA, but I'll try to figure it out.

By the way, if you feel comfortable, go ahead and add an entry for Singaporean Hainanese. I don't have access to speakers right now, but I go back to Singapore every year and will have access to native speakers whenever I do, and I can also ask them stuff over the phone during regular phone calls. For a start, I can fill in the things that I'm sure are different between Singaporean Hainanese and Wenchang Hainanese. And example that I know is 糜, which refers to porridge in Singaporean Hainanese, but cooked rice in Wenchang Hainanese. In fact, Singaporean Hainanese uses 糜 for Teochew and Taiwanese style porridge (where the whole grains are still visible), and 粥 for Cantonese style porridge (where the gains have been mashed up and are no longer visible), while cooked rice is known as 飯. If you want to add Malaysian Hainanese as well, I guess Kuala Terengganu will be the representative example, since it's the only city I know of where Hainanese is the lingua franca among the Chinese community. I can also send you YouTube videos of Malaysian Hainanese lessons if you're interested. The dog2 (talk) 18:00, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Formatting entries

Hi, just wanted to remind you to be a little more careful with the formatting of entries when you create new entries. You can see what I did in this edit to fix the formatting. You could also try using {{subst:zh-new}}, which makes it easier for making entries in the right format. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:56, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

銀針粉 vs 瀨粉

This video explains it pretty well. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:50, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

化州

@The dog2, Justinrleung: Just so you know, there's two varieties of Cantonese in Huazhou, 上江話 and 下江話. Not sure if their vocabulary are different, but we don't have data on the vocabulary in either variety anyway. I have some data on Gaozhou though. RcAlex36 (talk) 05:08, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: There's this Cantonese variety show called 誰語爭鋒 where they sometimes feature expressions from Huazhou, so I can sometimes fill in from there. That said, they don't specify whether it's 上江話 or 下江話, and I wasn't even aware of their existence. I thought this is an interesting one because it is known for being one of the varieties that is difficult for a native Cantonese speaker from Guangzhou to understand. The dog2 (talk) 05:14, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

誰語爭鋒 isn't that great for our modules because Guangdong is really diverse, but the show lumps everything under the prefecture level most of the time. Of course we can sometimes use it but I remember removing many of your edits based on the show. I know it's interesting to document these varieties, but we really don't have good sources on these at the vocabulary level.

@RcAlex36: I'm wondering if you know which variety is spoken in Huazhou's seat or if both varieties are spoken there. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:20, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Sometimes, they do go down to the county level as well. If they say 茂名化州話, you can be pretty sure it's from Huazhou, but they don't mention whether it's 上江話 or 下江話. The dog2 (talk) 06:23, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: It's 上江話, though it seems like there is no default 化州話. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:28, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: For the phonology of both, see 粵西茂湛地區粵語語音研究. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:30, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: There does seem to be a default or representative 化州白話 according to 化州縣志, which is the speech of 化州城 (so the seat, which is probably 上江話). 化州縣志 splits Huazhou Cantonese into other divisions like 南安話, 南盛話 and 茅山話. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:10, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: 化州市志 (2014) makes the 上江話 and 下江話 distinction though. RcAlex36 (talk) 07:16, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I see. Either way, we don't really have much to work with. There is a list of words in 化州縣志, and it should be based on the seat's dialect, which should be 上江話. I'm not sure if we should include Huazhou yet though. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:05, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: We have too little material to work with. As a side note, I even regret adding Lufeng earlier because the vocabulary list isn't that great (but I have a longer list on another town in Lufeng). We can wait a few additional years and see whether any good material will be published (just saying). RcAlex36 (talk) 08:13, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Singaporean Cantonese synonyms for 剛才

I've put in 頭先 because I just heard it from a Singaporean Cantonese show. If you know any additional synonyms in Singaporean Cantonese (perhaps like 啱啱, 正話, etc.), please fill them in. Thanks! RcAlex36 (talk) 15:38, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Check Before you Move

Before you move something such as Module:zh/data/dial-syn/回, you need to look at the "What Links Here" page and figure out what needs to be done with those pages. Right now we have a template with a module error and a character entry still pointing to where the module used to be. The character entry has links to create the missing module, which would leave us with two modules covering the same thing. Any suggestions on how to fix this mess? Chuck Entz (talk) 04:58, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz: I've gone in and fix the ones that I can. Tanks for letting me know.

@Justinrleung Please fix the ones in your userspace. It would probably be rude for me to do it for you. The dog2 (talk) 05:01, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't think Module:zh/data/dial-syn/回 should've been moved. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:34, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Doesn't the policy say that the module name should be the name in formal written Chinese? The dog2 (talk) 05:35, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

There's no official policy; what's suggested in T:zh-dial doesn't say "formal", but just Modern Standard Mandarin. 回 is definitely used in Modern Standard Mandarin, e.g. 我們回學校了 (and even 我們回家了). 返回 is actually slightly more complex in that it's less directly an equivalent to the dialectal synonyms listed in the module. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:52, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I will say that 返回 definitely comes across as more formal than 回. So while it would not be incorrect to say "我們返回家了", it definitely sounds very stilted. The dog2 (talk) 05:56, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Also, to me, it's slightly different in meaning. 返回 has an implication of actually arriving at the destination (i.e. the returning has been completed) but 回 doesn't necessarily. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:59, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36, do you think it should be moved back to 回? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:00, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Moving it to 返回 was unnecessary in the first place. I support moving it back to 回. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:09, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Apparently it's even more complicated than I thought: all of these Module:zh/data/dial-syn submodules are included in Module:zh-dial-syn/check-presence/list, which Module:zh-dial-syn/check-presence uses. This must have caused a module error, which @Suzukaze-c fixed. After it was moved back, Module:zh-dial-syn/check-presence/list became incorrect again, so I had to undo the fix (after half an hour or so trying one thing after another to clear the error). I hope this serves as an illustration that our Chinese module infrastructure is a complex system of interacting parts, and seemingly minor changes can have unexpected consequences. Changes like this should be discussed with more experienced Chinese editors beforehand- especially if, as in this case, it's a type of change you've never done before. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Module:zh/data/dial-syn/口

You can fill in some data here if you wish. Thanks! RcAlex36 (talk) 08:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Also pinging @Justinrleung. RcAlex36 (talk) 08:26, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Situation of Hokkien in Singapore

Hi, do most people in Singapore not speak Hokkien anymore as they now speak Mandarin (or even English) instead? What's the approximate age distribution of L1/fluent Hokkien speakers in Singapore? For those that aren't fluent in Hokkien, do they at least have a passive knowledge of the language? Thanks in advance! RcAlex36 (talk) 05:29, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I'd say most L1 Hokkien speakers would be those born before 1980, so basically people aged above 40. The Speak Mandarin Campaign started in 1979, so knowledge of dialects declined drastically after that as people followed the government advice not to teach dialects to their kids. If you meet someone born after 1980 who is fluent in Hokkien (or another Chinese dialect), that person was likely raised by his/her grandparents who only spoke dialect. For people born between 1980 and around 1994, it's split between L1 English and L1 Mandarin speakers, though I don't have the numbers. For those born after 1994, it's largely just English speakers. That said, given the long history of Hokkien in Singapore, many common Hokkien expressions are widely understood even by the Malays and Indians, and even by the younger generation. There's also a few Teochew and Cantonese expressions that are widely understood, though not as many as those form Hokkien because Hokkien people form the majority among the Chinese community. The dog2 (talk) 05:54, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Thanks a lot for your answer! RcAlex36 (talk) 06:04, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: What about Hakka and Hainanese? Are they considered nearly extinct in Singapore? RcAlex36 (talk) 06:42, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: It's largely the same situation as for Hokkien, Teochew and Cantonese, where people of those dialect groups who were born before 1980 generally speak it fluently, and those born after 1980 generally don't unless they were raised by their grandparents. The main difference is that the number of Hakka and Hainanese speakers was already small to begin with, so naturally those dialects will be in a more precarious situation than Hokkien, Teochew or Cantonese. And of course, for Foochow/Hokchiu, Shanghainese or Henghua (Pu-Xian Min), it's even more precarious than for Hakka and Hainanese. The dog2 (talk) 06:47, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: I wish there was a book called 新加坡的三/四/五個漢語方言 like 馬來西亞的三個漢語方言 (although it also seems to contain numerous errors). I can't believe there has not been a single treatise on Singaporean Cantonese throughout all these years. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:56, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Did people who have a passive knowledge of Cantonese in Singapore learn Cantonese from HK films instead of from people who already spoke Singaporean Cantonese? RcAlex36 (talk) 07:01, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I learnt my Cantonese from watching HK dramas, but most Cantonese speakers under 40 in Singapore would have learnt it from their grandparents who did not speak anything else. My parents learnt their Cantonese from Cantonese neighbours and business partners. And there are a few Cantonese expressions that have made it into Singlish. For instance, instead of "takeaway", we would say "ta pau". The dog2 (talk) 07:07, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: One more thing I forgot to mention. As part of the government's Speak Mandarin Campaign, it has been illegal to broadcast dialect programmes in Singapore since 1980, so all the Hong Kong TVB dramas must be dubbed into Mandarin before they can be broadcast on TV. And in the cinemas, it's slightly more lenient, but dialect dialogue is restricted to no more than 50% of each movie's dialogue, so all the Hong Kong movies likewise have to be dubbed into Mandarin before they can be screened in Singapore (though the rule means that local movies with some Hokkien dialogue can be screened without dubbing). If you want to watch a movie in Cantonese, you have to drive into Malaysia for that. Likewise, Cantonese and Hokkien songs are banned from the radio; only Mandarin songs are allowed. They only allow some dialect news on the radio for the benefit of elderly people who don't speak anything else. Therefore, there is very little opportunity for the average young Singaporean to get exposure to Cantonese unless they have Cantonese-speaking family members at home. You can still find Cantonese CDs and DVDs in the shops though, as it is still legal to sell them, and that was how I was able to learn Cantonese. The dog2 (talk) 15:43, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: That's unfortunate. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:51, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Singaporean Cantonese

Based on what has been added to dialectal synonyms table and what I have heard, it seems to me that there is negligible difference between Hong Kong Cantonese and Singaporean Cantonese. Am I wrong in thinking so? RcAlex36 (talk) 04:37, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Singapore Cantonese is definitely similar to Hong Kong and Guangzhou Cantonese, but there are some noticeable differences. For instance, 仆街 is often used to mean "broke" in Singapore, and this use has even been borrowed into Singlish. "Police station" is 馬打寮 instead of 差館. And if you want to ask someone how much something caused, it's "幾鐳？" instead of "幾錢？". And people also say "lo-ti" to mean bread, which comes from Malay roti. And also, what you guys called 銀針粉 in Hong Kong is called 老鼠粉 in Singapore. I guess it's at some sort of an intermediate point between Guangzhou Cantonese and Kuala Lumpur Cantonese. In the same way the Singaporean Hokkien is at some sort of an intermediate point between Penang Hokkien and Xiamen Hokkien. The dog2 (talk) 04:46, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Dialects in Kuala Lumpur

Hi, I know that Cantonese is the most spoken dialect in KL, and a dialect of Hakka (Dabu) is also spoken there. Is there a significant Hokkien speaking population in KL? (Although everyone probably speaks Mandarin now.) RcAlex36 (talk) 11:30, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: There's definitely Hokkien speakers in KL, though I'm not sure of exact numbers. The nearby city of Klang, which is considered to be part of the KL metropolitan area, is majority Hokkien-speaking though. Speaking of minorities in Malaysia, I personally know a native Cantonese speaker from Penang. The dog2 (talk) 14:01, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

I know Teochew is spoken in Penang. It's actually more like a Hokkien-Teochew hybrid. RcAlex36 (talk) 14:05, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Even in Singapore it kind of is. Of course, there is more Hokkien influence on Teochew than vice-versa because the Hokkien community is bigger, but you can find Teochew loanwards in Singaporean Hokkien, and even a couple of Cantonese ones. The dog2 (talk) 15:27, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Lee Kuan-Yew once said if the Singaporean government had left language habits to evolve on their own, Chinese Singaporeans would be speaking a Hokkien-Teochew hybrid dialect today. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:59, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

I think 四散 in Singaporean Hokkien is from Teochew. (Edit: I may be wrong. It's also used in Xiamen and Zhangzhou Hokkien.) RcAlex36 (talk) 16:02, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Hard to say. The Teochews have historically been very tightly-knit and protective of their language. During the colonial period, riots between the Hokkiens and Teochews occurred fairly regularly. Even today, during elections, you have to send Teochew-speaking candidates to contest the seats majority-Teochew constituencies or you have almost no chance of winning. The PAP learnt that the hard way when they lost a few Teochew-majority seats in the general election because the opposition candidate spoke Teochew and the PAP candidate didn't. The PAP learnt from their mistake though and made sure they sent Teochew-speaking candidates to contest the Teochew-majority seats after that debacle, and managed to win back all but two of those seats at the next general election in 1997.

And even in China, you can see that unlike say, Foochow, Teochew is still going strong, and while the Teochew people know how to speak Mandarin, they still insist on speaking Teochew outside of school, and even among the younger generation, you can hear quite a strong Teochew accent when they speak Mandarin.

And 四散 is a classic Teochew experession. To be honest, I've never heard anyone using it in Hokkien. If I hear that term, I immediately think of Teochew. The dog2 (talk) 16:16, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Teochew people in HK aren't protective of their language though (speaking as a guy of Teochew descent who speaks zero Teochew). I've never really heard Teochew in HK, to be honest, except among older folks. RcAlex36 (talk) 17:04, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: There is a video on YouTube where you can hear Li Ka-shing speaking Teochew though (I know Sammi Cheng is Teochew too, but I'm not sure if she speaks it). And I think some of the older actresses like Cheng Pei-pei speak Shanghainese. And if I'm not wrong, Chow Yun-fat speaks Hakka. Speaking of which, I wonder what response will I get if I go to a Teochew restaurant in HK and try ordering food in Teochew. I know many HKers find it offensive if someone speaks to them in Mandarin because of the current political situation, but is it as politically charged for the other Chinese dialects? The dog2 (talk) 17:09, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

I doubt ordinary HK people can distinguish between the different dialects (forget about Weitou and HK Hakka, most HK people know nothing about these native lects). People probably just view dialect speakers as some unsophisticated folks coming from mainland China. I frequent a restaurant the owner of which seems to be from Hailufeng, although I've never heard him actually speak Hoklo. RcAlex36 (talk) 17:15, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi, just looking at your edits on KL Cantonese and wondering how you know JeRR PS Rion is from KL. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:53, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Partly because his accent sounds Malaysian, and also because the address listed on his webpage is from Kuala Lumpur. The dog2 (talk) 16:55, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Okay, just wanted to make sure. I checked his Facebook and it does say he's born in KL. Another thing is to probably not use his Hakka for "Kuala Lumpur-H" because that's specifically Dabu Hakka, which may or may not be what he speaks. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:58, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: 馬來西亞三個漢語方言 has 屌那媽 listed, I think. RcAlex36 (talk) 17:08, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I was referring to the edits on 陰莖. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:41, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Oh, sorry. RcAlex36 (talk) 17:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Singapore Teochew

@Justinrleung In Allan Tan's Teochew there don't seem to be -m and -p. Have -m and -p merged with -ŋ and -k in Singapore Teochew? RcAlex36 (talk) 16:58, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I'm not a native Teochew speaker, but I won't be surprised if there are a variety of pronunciations in Singaporean Teochew, because it is not standardised, and the Teochews in Singapore came from different parts of the Chaoshan region. I've heard Singaporean Teochews pronouncing the m and p. If you see this video, she pronounces the p final in 十, and in this video, she pronounces the m final in 藍. The dog2 (talk) 18:00, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36, Justinrleung: Speaking of which, I have heard both "ug8" and "ngh8" as pronunciations for 夗 (to sleep) in Singapore. The dog2 (talk) 20:14, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Ping doesn't work in edit summaries

Hi, please use [[User:Username]] instead in edit summaries. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:51, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Happy Mid-Autumn Festival

Happy Mid-Autumn Festival! RcAlex36 (talk) 12:02, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Happy Mid-Autumn Festival to you too. The dog2 (talk) 15:30, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Beef

Hi, unrelated to linguistics, but do Chinese Singaporeans eat beef? It seems like most Malaysian Chinese do not eat beef due to religious reasons. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:13, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: It's mixed. Many Chinese Singaporeans are Christians and do eat beef. For those who are Buddhist or Taoist, it is mixed. Some don't but there are many who do; Teochew beef kway teow is quite a well-known dish, for instance, and if you go to a local Cantonese restaurant, you can order beef hor fun. And if you go to a dim sum restaurant, you can always find 牛柏葉 on the menu. And of course, any place selling Western food, including cheap places selling localised Western food, will have steak on the menu. As for Malaysia, avoiding beef is hardly universal among the Chinese either. If you go to Kota Kinabalu, a famous Hakka dish from there is 牛雜. The dog2 (talk) 15:57, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Do Hakka people not have the taboo against beef? By the way, no one really ate beef in Taiwan before 1945. Beef hot pot in Chaoshan is also a rather recent thing. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:10, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I don't think it boils down to their dialect group, but rather each individual's religious belief. There is quite a bit of diversity among Buddhism and Taoism, so ultimately, it boils down to each individual's interpretation of the religion. For instance, Hong Kong people are mostly Cantonese, and I had 乾炒牛河 when I last visited Hong Kong. Similarly, there are some Christians who abstain from alcohol completely (such as the Baptists, Pentacostals etc.), but for others (eg. Catholics, Anglicans and Orthodox Christians), wine is used for their holy communion. And as for Muslims, if you go to China, the Uyghur Muslims have a tradition of winemaking and drinking alcohol, while the Hui Muslims have a tradition of ordaining female imams, both of which will be considered heretical by Saudi Muslims. And in Nepal, the Hindus eat the meat of water buffaloes, which some Hindus in India would consider to be sacrilegious given their similarity to domestic cows. So in short, every religion has a whole range of interpretations, and you will find a range of dietary restrictions even among people who profess same religion. The dog2 (talk) 16:26, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it's necessarily related to religious beliefs. Many people in the world don't eat dogs because eating dogs is frowned upon in their society, and they see dogs as pets that should not be eaten. In an agricultural society, people do not eat cows because cows are valuable animals used in farming. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:36, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Yeah, I get your point. But in short, I don't think it's accurate to say most Singaporean or Malaysian Chinese abstain from beef. It is really very mixed. At least in Singapore, most Hainanese people will eat beef because many of them worked for British employers during the colonial period, so they adopted many British habits. That is why if you go to Singapore, most older people associate Western food with the Hainanese community, and most of the famous old-time Western food stalls and restaurants are run by Hainanese people. And many of my Hainanese relatives love to eat steak, so whenever any of them visit me here in America, I will usually bring them to a steakhouse. The dog2 (talk) 16:46, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

十三幺, 大四喜, 大三元

Hi, do you have a source for the Hokkien pronunciationss of these? RcAlex36 (talk) 02:07, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Unfortunately not video evidence. These are just terms I learnt form playing mahjong with my Hokkien relatives. The dog2 (talk) 02:11, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Should perhaps mark them as Singapore. RcAlex36 (talk) 02:12, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Also, please try to be consistent with hypenating POJ. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:13, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Also, there's no restrictions about 花牌 in Hong Kong mahjong for 平和. I know a lot of restrictions exist for 平和 in Taiwan (e.g. cannot 獨聽 and 自摸). RcAlex36 (talk) 02:15, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: OK. I guess I'm just most familiar with Singaporean rules then. In Singapore, you cannot have any 花牌 or animal tiles (something unique to Singapore mahjong), even if the 花牌 does not score you points, but you can 自摸. You also cannot 獨聽 unless you 自摸 the final tile. But I think 平和 is worth more in Singapore than in Hong Kong. In Singapore, it's worth 4 points, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's worth only 1 point in Hong Kong. The dog2 (talk) 02:38, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

You probably shouldn't attempt a 平和 in HK because of 三番起胡. RcAlex36 (talk) 02:41, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: By the way, I created two dialectal synonym tables for mahjong terms, if you would care to add to fill them up. Perhaps we should have some sort of a glossary page for mahjong terms. I wonder what justin(r)leung thinks about that. The dog2 (talk) 02:59, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Wenchang

Hi, by native speaker, do you mean they were born and are living in Wenchang? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:34, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Not living in Wenchang right now, but born and raised there. If you're curious, I asked someone on a Douyin livestream. The dog2 (talk) 01:35, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

I see. Thanks! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:41, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Module:zh/data/dial

I reverted your edit because it caused module errors in 588 entries. Please check with someone who understands the way the modules are set up before editing a module that's used by literally thousands of entries. Thanks. Chuck Entz (talk) 08:51, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

We should keep fangyandian labels as is if they're already used in many entries. The thing that should be changed should be how they appear, not how they are labelled in the back-end. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:57, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I didn't realise there were so many other pages where those entries had been used. Otherwise, I wouldn't have made the change. I was just thinking about what if the same location has both a Taishanese and Cantonese community. Singapore doesn't have a significant Taishanese community, but Malaysia has both Taishanese and Cantonese communities and in fact, I have a Malaysian aunt who speaks Taishanese. The dog2 (talk) 23:59, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

We could just have some other way of labelling it. The only time where I see a label change necessary is when it's too broad and we've been confusing different varieties as one, and the best way to deal with it is to create new labels and deprecate the old one. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:30, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Penang Hokkien for cup

I see you added Penang Hokkien's word as "杯". I would like to verify how you arrived at that conclusion to decide whether or not to remove it. Fredrick Campbell (talk) 09:35, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I've been to Penang and people understand me when I use that term. If you look at this forum, it seems that it's used too, but just less common because of a taboo. The dog2 (talk) 15:29, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it should be included if it's only "understood" by people but not used. I can understand an Australian when they say "fairy floss", but I would use "cotton candy" myself (as a Canadian English speaker). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:41, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

OK. I added that term a fair while back when I was still much newer here, but I'll make the switch. The dog2 (talk) 22:48, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, The dog2! And just making sure, @Fredrick Campbell, 甌 is also used in Mandarin for "cup" in Malaysia? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:27, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: No. I was hesitant to add to Mandarin for cup in Malaysia because I was not sure whether 杯, 杯子, or both is or are used. - Fredrick Campbell (talk) 03:40, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

I checked the entry and apparently I mistakenly added it to Malaysia-M instead of Malaysia-MN. I have corrected it. - Fredrick Campbell (talk) 03:46, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: Thanks! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:54, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Hinghwa, Futsing, etc

Hey- if you have any more Chinese-character derived words like these above that you can think of or are interested in, go ahead and make those entry pages and I will find citations for them. This is a neglected part of English that I'm working on in my 1,000 Day Plan. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 10:05, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: Thanks. I'll create them when I think of anything. For now, I added definitions to the entries on Foochow, Hokchiu and Hokchia, so you may want to find citations for them. Also, I don't know if you want to make anymore edits to the Henghua entry. The dog2 (talk) 16:31, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Hey, could you find some sources that use the word Khek for me? If you find some, I will add them to the page. I am just totally unfamiliar with the word and I don't know how to look for it. If we can get three good sources, I will add this to the 客 page. (PS: check out my additions for the Wanfow page) --Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:32, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: Here are some: [6], [7] and [8]. Another instance is admittedly anecdotal, but when I was volunteering at a nursing home during my time in secondary school, they would label the dialect group of the resident along with the name so we would know what language to speak to them in (unfortunately, I can't speak Hakka, so we had to get other schoolmates to talk to them), and in that particular nursing home, the Hakka residents were labelled "Khek". The dog2 (talk) 16:00, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

菜飯

Are you sure this is "economy rice"? Wikipedia suggests 雜飯 or 雜菜飯 for that. Baidu Baike says 菜饭是中国民间一种特色食品，比较著名的菜饭有上海菜饭、福建菜饭、台湾菜饭等。菜饭将菜肴与主食结合在一起，制作方便，味道鲜美，颇受百姓好评, so not restricted to Singapore. ---> Tooironic (talk) 23:26, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

@Tooironic: Yes, it is used in that sense in Singapore. I can't speak for China, but I'm from Singapore so that's the Singaporean sense. The dog2 (talk) 23:40, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

包飯

Thank you for your contribution here. It would be great if in the future you could check whether the term you are working on has usage in Standard Chinese/Mandarin before adding it. Cheers. ---> Tooironic (talk) 08:01, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

唱

I saw that you edited that chiàng is a pronunciation in Penang Hokkien. I would like to know how you know this? [edit I'm referring to] — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 13:56, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: Ah crap, I forgot where I got that from. You can go ahead and delete for now. The dog2 (talk) 15:51, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Raoping

Hi, I wanted to know how you know that Douyin user is from Raoping. I also wanted to let you know that "Raoping" in the modules is unfortunately used for Raoping Hakka in Taiwan (because of my ignorance when I first added the dialect point). You should be using "Raoping-MN-T" for Teochew spoken in Raoping. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:38, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: In this video she says she is from Raoping. The dog2 (talk) 02:29, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Taoism

Hey, I'm interested in this diff. If you have a moment, can you send me a couple links that show examples of this? If you can do that, I will try to use those links and that context to find some cites for your Singapore Taoism definition. Interesting! --Geographyinitiative (talk) 20:31, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: I don't know if these are necessarily citable, but you can see the official description of Taoism according to the Singapore government here and here. There's also the web-site of the Taoist Federation of Singapore where they have descriptions of some of the gods they pray too. There's this article that lists some temples as "Taoist temples", and most of them are not dedicated to Laozi. And here's another one referring to a temple dedicated to the Jade Emperor as "Taoist". The dog2 (talk) 21:20, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't think this is a right understanding of how Taoism is thought of outside of Singapore. This sense is definitely not particular to Singapore. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:43, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Do people also use "Taoism" in this sense in Canadian English? In Singapore, temples dedicated to Confucius and ancestral temples are also broadly classified as "Taoist". Only Buddhist temples are classified separately. The dog2 (talk) 17:48, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@The dog2: I don't think most Taoist temples are (only) dedicated to Laozi (and/or Zhuangzi). Temples to the Jade Emperor (and Wong Tai Sin in Hong Kong, for example) are all within Taoism (sense 2), since they are revered as gods or immortals in Taoism (sense 2). I'm not sure if this is all traditional Chinese religion, but it definitely isn't only about Laozi. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:01, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Mistakenly erased original content

How can I set back the original content? (I have mistakenly erased its original content. ) 胡心水庵 (talk) 05:30, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Restored

It's been restored. (Original content) 胡心水庵 (talk) 05:36, 13 September 2023 (UTC)