Dark Legion - Undead Horde - Part 2

In a recent post I mentioned that I was planning an undead horde for my Dark Legion...

...the response was...mixed...

Necromutants!!!...No, Legionnaires!!!...Necromutants!!!...No, Legionnaires!!!...

My plan was to have a large number of cheap units throwing as much fire-power as possible out using an old philosophy of mine from back when list building for 40K was actually fun whereby if you throw enough shots into an enemy unit it's going to die...eventually...with this supported by a bit more quality fire-power with which to pick off threats that need immediate attention..

I believe the actual quote goes "Quantity has a quality all of it's own.." Though the quote originally came from Joseph Stalin I don't think we can hold that against the quote. He also said "One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic." Which is probably on a plaque over Algeroth's office door.....

In my second of my battle reports (which can be found here) I used exactly such a list as mentioned and it did rather well. I also discovered that I was slightly under-pointed...

The revised list is going to go something like the following...we'll look at the reasons as we go along...

Warlord - Golgotha   (175 Points)

Golgotha has several abilities that are exceptionally useful in this build type.

Her Passive Ability 'Aura of Dark Symmetry' gives friendly models starting their activation within 12" of her a +1 to their Movement Value which combined with the +1 from their Necromutant Squad Commander ups a Undead Legionnaires Movement from four to six which given their inability to run is a significant improvement. In addition to this benefit she has another Passive Ability called 'Repugnant Actuality' which gives all friendly models on small or medium bases within 12" of Golgotha a +1 bonus to Armour which ups our Legionnaires from 12 to 13 and our Razides to 15 from 14 which is also helpful.

Her third Passive Ability is 'Dark Symmetry' which enables her to take up to one Algeroth Dark Symmetry Power. Given her role (in my force at least) as a support Warlord I'd most likely give her Bringer of Dark Tools, Transmorphication or Infernal Shield which give the target unit bonuses to weapon strength, armour or Willpower respectively. All of those are 15 points though Transmorphication is currently the one I'm edging towards as it potentially gives me Armour 17 on a unit of Razides.

She's adequate in a fight though she rely's on quantity of attacks rather than quality combined with a de-buff from 'Mistress of Pain' and to be fair if she's in combat then something's going wrong..or some sneaky individual's used Rapid Deployment to ambush me, lol.

Troops - Undead Legionnaires (172 Points)

Now I've found a few extra points I'll be using maximum sized units of these numbering twelve Legionnaires (one of which will be upgraded to a Necromutant Squad Commander) with the maximum possible upgraded to have special weapons. My personal preference is for four HMG's in each squad and though I can see the usefulness in certain situations of the Plaguedealer I'm sticking with the HMG's for now.

A full unit gives me 12, 18" range St 13 shots and 7, 24" range shots at St 12 with a RS of 12 with a further 2, 24" range St 13 shots at RS 13. Effectively what this means is I get a lot of very average shots at mid-range and hopefully enough get through so my target fails an armour save or two. I can 'Turn to Burn' a Resource card to give the unit 'Black Bullets' which stop the target from making 'Heal' rolls...very useful against forces with medics or if you just don't want that small chance of enemy survival to ruin all your hard work.

In melee they're also distinctly average...except...

Mutant Chronicles is in many ways less about unit selection (nothings terrible) but rather in the correct use of the units you have. When used appropriately Undead Legionnaires aren't actually that bad in a scrap. Their weapons prevent the use of healing effects, if they have a Necromutant Leader they have access to the 'Swarm'* Special Squad Action and it's also possible to turn certain models you kill into additional Undead Legionnaires in certain circumstances (It only works on Small or Medium Based models and they have to be removed by the Necromutant Squad Leader) but a free model is a free model, lol.

I used 'Swarm' several times in my last battle and it's an excellent way of removing high value single models.

As is to be expected in a 'Horde' list, I'll be taking four units of these.

Support - Razides (75 Points each)

I can now afford four of these rather than three though whether I'll take one as a unit on it's own or split them into two units of two or some other configuration will require some thought...

In my first game I left them in their normal configuration with the 3 shot 18" Range gun (the Plaguedealer HMG) and in my second I swapped them for the 2 shot, 30" version (the Nazgaroth) as they were going to stay at the back as a bodyguard for Golgotha. Next game I'm going to try a mix of both to give me some varying threat ranges. My current thinking is that I'll have a unit of two protecting Golgotha with the Nazgaroth upgrade and I'll take two in single model units that will move forward giving more close range support.

Razides are the 'Quality' part of the equation in this list. Their shots ignore any negative modifiers to range and any claims for cover, have a decent RS of 13 (once in position they'll be aiming rather than moving so their RS will effectively be 15 and the St of the attack will become 17...for the first shot at least) and also have some options in Close Combat situations which improve if you don't mind using a Resource Card.

Monster - Praetorian Behemoth (320 Points)

I like it and it's cool.....but I suppose that doesn't really count as a tactical analysis.....

Having used up my troop choices I'm left with a couple of Lord slots, my remaining Support slots without Razides in them and one Light Vehicle/Monster slot. I have no need of Lords particularly and I'm not sure that Praetorian Stalkers particularly compliment the list. What it really lacks is a heavily armoured bullet magnet as well as an immediate 'I need to deal with that now' threat that I can use to force my opponent to commit resources where I wish him to rather than where he (or she) wants to...this role is tailor made for the Behemoth...

He has a powerful ranged attack which has a Blast option as well as grenades that reduce an enemies armour and neutralise their 'Heal' Ability. It's close combat attacks are incredibly powerful and it has little trouble in tearing apart vehicles or multiple Wound models. If you don't mind spending a Resource Card you can do my personal favourite 'Throw building at unit' attack and it's 'Unstoppable Mass' attack allows it to make a Special 'Charge' Action that travels 12", Auto-hitting everything in it's path and hurling any survivors away.

Of course invariably it will be prevented from doing this a 2nd time as your opponent generally moves it up the priority list pretty much immediately afterwards, lol.

This makes the list for my next game the following...

Dark Legion - Undead Horde

Golgotha (175), Transmorphication (15)   (190)

Undead Legionnaires x12 (120), Necromutant Squad Commander (+20), HMG x4 (+32)   (172)
Undead Legionnaires x12 (120), Necromutant Squad Commander (+20), HMG x4 (+32)   (172)
Undead Legionnaires x12 (120), Necromutant Squad Commander (+20), HMG x4 (+32)   (172)
Undead Legionnaires x12 (120), Necromutant Squad Commander (+20), HMG x4 (+32)   (172)

Razides x2   (150), Nazgaroth Upgrade (+0)   (150)
Razides x1   (75)
Razides x1   (75)

Praetorian Behemoth (320)

Total   (1498)

Thoughts and comments are (as usual) most welcome.

Razorbacks and 6th Edition...

I've had a few e-mails about me still including Razorbacks in my attempts at writing balanced lists for 6th Edition...

The general gist of them come down to the fact that 6th Editions vehicle rules make them (Razorbacks) much less survivable and that there are better ways to spend your points. I would have to agree (sort of) with one of those statements (the first) but not the second. As regular readers will know, I don't include anything in a 40K list for 'fluff' reasons...they all have a purpose or they don't get into the list, it's simple as that.

Of course simply saying something doesn't make it so and as some-one who has had to listen to people talk bollocks on a subject for an hour or more with their argument boiling down to 'I'll say this over and over again till people either agree with me or start planning fatal accidents for me to make me shut up' I suppose I should justify my viewpoint with actual information*

*A radical idea I know...I doubt it'll catch on...

So What's Changed for the Worse?
As we're all aware vehicles are no longer the invulnerable, scoring, bunkers of safety that they once were and if your vehicle is unfortunate to be in possession an armour value that makes it vulnerable to small arms fire then that's obviously an issue.

One of the main issues for me is that vehicles no longer score. I know that the vehicle itself never did but parking a vehicle with a scoring unit inside on an objective was an entirely viable 5th edition strategy. However even with the more favourable vehicle rules of 5th Edition it was rare in the extreme for a player with Razorbacks or Rhinos to finish with many (if any) intact ones. They were (and still are) a force multiplier for your army. They added fire-power, unit protection or just got in the bloody way and now is no different.

Also, the overall reduction in cover saves (4+ down to 5+) seems like a nerf to vehicles but generally a vehicle in the threat range of an enemy weapon wasn't getting one anyway or was getting one from a psychic power or similar and that was most likely only 5+ anyway. Once you were in melta range it was generally goodbye vehicle regardless.....

What Hasn't Changed at All?
Protecting an infantry unit in an armoured shell (A Combat Squad normally) is as useful as it ever was as getting your scoring unit shot to pieces is never a good idea. I always thought of a vehicle as an extra Wound  and/or an extra gun and that's no different now. When we are talking about five man Troop units we often find that the vehicle beats them hands down for fire-power relative to cost especially in armies that get a points break on their vehicles. Also the ability to rapidly redeploy a unit is exactly as useful as it ever was ;-)

Changes for the Better.
Given the changes in infantry configuration, reduced cover saves (they effect your enemies as well you know) and reduced fire from enemies in transport units it's a lot less likely that your Razorback is going to die to early suicide Melta units. The general trend towards Plasma rather than Melta as an infantry weapon helps in this area as well.

General Tactics.

With a 5+ cover save (from wherever you can), moving forward either before or behind your infantry (as appropriate) is how I mostly use my Razorbacks in 6th edition (and occasionally in 5th).  Unlike other armies such as Imperial Guard and Eldar (and Necrons since the new codex) who stay embarked on their transports for virtually the entire game, Space Marines (of whichever flavour your using) have their ever useful 3+ save to survive with.

This means they can walk forward and fire with the Razorbacks advancing slightly behind them or if their using the Razorback for cover...slightly ahead of them. With even basic troops having options that allow them to kill a vehicle up close and basic Marines being able to just use Krak grenades to destroy your Razorbacks, using them too aggressively is going to equal a dead Razorback for any enemy unit capable of killing it. Your opponent/enemy may take the risk of getting in close and risking being shot to pieces so it's something you have to consider (and lets be honest that's no different from 5th edition either).

Specific Army Considerations.
We should probably do this in some logical order...alphabetically should be fine...
Blood Angels:  Unlike the other Marines, you can easily run Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasmagun Razorbacks because being Fast, you have the option of moving 12" forward and firing with full effect and being able to toast three Marines (or equivalent) a turn with consistency is a nice tool to have access to. Pouring those three shots into a light transport is damn useful as well for stripping away Hull Points (possibly not as useful as an Assault Cannon version would be for that purpose...I'd have to run the maths).
Black Templars: Realistically Templars have one option with Razorbacks and that's the Twin-Linked Lascannon version. I suppose they're useful to leave camped in the corners for some long range Fire-power but it's unlikely to ever be a vehicle that Black Templars would 'Spam'.
Dark Angels: To be honest I can't think of a use for Razorbacks in a Dark Angels list as their Troops don't really seem configured to compliment them. Having not looked at the matter to deeply there's a possibility I'm wrong about that though...not a big possibility...but a possibility nonetheless ;-)
Grey Knights: Sigh....Do I really have to....okay then, if you insist. Grey Knight are one of the few Marine codices that have a use for standard Heavy Bolter Razorbacks as they can up them to Strength 6 with the addition of Psybolt ammunition and can be used aggressively as they're relatively cheap. They can also make good use of Assault Cannon Razorbacks as additional fire support for the Grey Knights themselves who are probably better used walking in front of them than sitting inside them.
Space Marines: Generally I'll buy a pair of Tactical Squads with a Razorback each and Combat Squad them. One half sits on an objective armed with a heavy weapon and the other half gets a specialist weapon and a Sergeant with a Combi-weapon of the same type and goes off and kills whatever their weapon load-out suits. If moving forward the Razorback gets an Assault Cannon, If acting as Fire Support it gets a Twin-Linked Lascannon or if you want it to be able to do either then your best bet is the Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasmagun type.
Space Wolves: Space Wolves don't get heavy weapons on their Grey Hunter Squads so a Las/Plas Razorback fills that hole in their weapon options nicely. Of course Space Wolves players can easily get cheap heavy weapons by simply taking Long Fangs...

...Or 'Rifleman' (That's a Twin-Linked Autocannon on each arm) Dreadnoughts. In which case you'd have the option to give them Assault Cannon Razorbacks to advance in rather than the Las/Plas version.

Okay then. That's my guide to why I think Razorbacks are just as viable in 6th Edition as they were in 5th. They just need to be used a bit differently that's all. It's also worth mentioning that a shot fired at a Razorback is one less shot fired at a scoring unit and that is often the difference between winning and losing ;-)

Thoughts and comments are (as usual) most welcome.

Night Terrors...

I've recently been using Night Terrors in games of Malifaux and have been pleasantly surprised by their usefulness when compared to their soul stone cost of three.

For a start they're fairly mobile with a Wk of 6 and the Flight rule so terrain isn't an issue. If using multiple Night Terrors you can use their (0) Action 'Flock Together' to push all friendly Night Terrors within 6" into base contact with the casting model. Basically this means you can deploy two Night Terrors next to each other, activate one and move it 6", push the other one towards you before taking another action (most likely another walk) effectively giving the 2nd Night Terror a 6" head start. Additionally, the 'Attracted to Noise' rule gives you an optional 3" push towards an enemy model within 8" that makes a ranged strike or casts a spell...you may not want to though as they're not really a model you want in combat.

Though they only have four wounds and an average defence of 5 the fact that they are Spirits helps their survivability by halving the amount of damage they take (except from magical weapons...unfortunately) and if you want them to camp on an objective you can always put them in a defensive stance. The also have a (1) action spell that has an aura of 6" and reduces models ranged attacks by -4 within that area...of course within that distance pretty much enemy model can just walk up and punch you instead...

It's also worth noting that as they are classed as Beasts, Nightmares and Spirits they can be hired by many different Masters.

But.....I have a tiny issue with them which is that they don't really fit in with the theme of certain of my crews, specifically they don't really fit the theme of my Seamus crew which is (with the exception of The Mad Hatter himself) all female. So the four Night Terror models I have will work quite happily with my other crews but for Seamus's posse I'll need something a bit different ;-)

For this I'll be turning to my first choice for Malifaux 'Counts-As' namely Freebooter Miniatures and more specifically this model in particular...

It's on a similar scale, is sitting on a rock and has wings so it's not a terrific stretch of the imagination and fits nicely with the somewhat gender specific nature of the rest of my Seamus crew. Though I like the colour scheme on the above model I have a few other pictures that have inspired me for other colour concepts.

The one in chains is particularly interesting and has given me a few ideas...

Thoughts and comments are (as usual) most welcome.

E-Mail In - Seamus Sucks...Or Does He?

Haven't had one of these for a while...

E-Mail In : 

GMort,

I know you've been doing a lot of stuff on Malifaux but it's all been hobby rather than tactics. I'm fairly new to Malifaux but have done alright with the Resurrectionist faction with everybody but Seamus. I know he's meant to be the 'bad guy' of Malifaux city but I'm yet to come close to winning a game when using the useless bastard. I know you said that your not playing Malifaux competitively but judging by how you were with 40K you must have learnt some dirty tricks you can share. Even if you don't do a tactica I'll settle for a few do's and don'ts...I have the starter boxes for McMourning, Nicodem, Molly and Seamus.

Name withheld by request.

Reply :

I'll give you some advice on basic stuff to remember that may (or may not) help. Lets not call it a Tactica though...I'm not really good enough at Malifaux to start writing 'How to win like a bastard' articles yet ;-)

Lets start at the beginning.
Firstly let's get some 'stating the obvious' out of the way just in case it's not as obvious as I thought.

1) The two soulstone cache that Seamus starts with isn't anywhere near enough. His average Cb of 5 with his gun means that if you want to guarantee a kill with it your going to need to use a soulstone to add a card to the total. I like to have at least five.
2) Despite having 'Hard to Wound 2', Hard to Kill' and 12 wounds his low defence makes hitting him easy which by default makes him a lot easier to kill than you'd like. For this reason Seamus's best defence is having a Rotten Belle (or 3) between him and any threat.
3) The ideal position for Seamus is just out of danger behind a wall of zombie hookers Rotten Belles. You want him within 8" of the Belles so they gain the benefit of his 'Belles of the Ball' rule or 6" if you want to use his 'Womaniser' rule on one of them. Once some of his crew are engaged in combat you might want to be closer still as he gains a control card and regains 2 wounds should a living or undead model be killed* within 6" of him because of his 'Necrotic Ministrations' rule.
4) Rotten Belles and Dead Doxies have the 'Shambling' rule so they ignore severe terrain movement penalties this means they can be positioned to gain the benefit of cover without effecting their mobility. Not a major advantage but you have to take what you can get when using a Seamus crew.
5) Remember that Seamus and Sybelle are both Terrifying>12 which is useful vs many enemy models. At the very least this can strip control cards from your opponents hand in order to make 'Slit Jugular' more likely to result in a kill. Seamus also has a spell to up that Terrifying to >14 which also adds an area of effect to the ability which is yet another reason for Seamus's 'just behind the action' policy on positioning ;-)

* This rule quite specifically says killed so sacrificed models or models removed by other means don't give you anything.

Control Hand.
Seamus's casting value comes with a 'Crow' built in so with most of his spells you just need to reach the CC...However...

6) If you have a 'Crow' card of 10 value or higher keep it for the purposes of using 'Arise my Sweet' to raise new hookers Belles because you'll be using Rotten Belles as shields, they'll be dying and will need replacing.

The job interview didn't go quite as she planed...

7) Low 'Crow' cards are also useful as your 'Slit Jugular' trigger does no damage so it doesn't really matter what value card you use for it...just the suit of that card.
8) If your using Madame Sybelle then you'll also probably want to keep a 9 or higher of masks for the purposes of using her 'Call Belle' ability.

Basic Tactics.
Here are a few things worth remembering.

9) Seamus effectively has 3 AP rather than 2 as 'Fast +1' gives him an extra action that he can use for any purpose. This means that you can move into position, shoot his gun and then retreat back to safety if necessary. His gun can only be fired once per turn so if you really want the target dead you'll most likely want to use a soulstone to make sure that you hit. Should you need those actions for another purpose then you can always lure your target in closer...
10) Rotten Belles have a relatively poor Ca of 4 (with a Crow built in) but fortunately their 'Seductive' ability adds +4 Ca when they cast 'Lure' and this ability also adds a Mask to the total so your suit requirements are automatically met (Madame Sybelle has the 'Lure' spell but not the 'Seductive' ability so it's more difficult for her to pull this one off**). With a casting value of 12 this becomes an easy spell to cast and has a good range of 18". It's entirely possible to use multiple uses of this spell to drag enemy models towards you for a number of purposes...
a) It gets you a free melee attack if you manage to drag your victim into the casting models melee range.
b) Dragging models into the range of Seamus's gun, or other of the crews short range abilities.
c) Many crews rely on a particular model to 'Buff' their comrades or otherwise enhance them or synergise with other models. If you can drag such a model out of the effective range of these abilities then it makes killing the rest all the easier.
d) Madame Sybelle has the 'Flurry' ability so it's nice if she doesn't have to waste an AP to move into melee range and can instead just use 'Flurry' to get 3 attacks.
e) Seamus's 'No Escape' ability allows him to charge a model within 6" that's been moved during a movement effect. Obviously given Seamus's need to be positioned correctly you'll need to seriously consider whether you want him to be charging that particular model.....
11) In scenarios that require you to reach an area, token, marker or similar relatively quickly then you can use 'Belle of the Ball' to gain +2 Walk to Madame Sybelle which effectively gives her a range of 12". She can then use 'Call Belle' to summon a Belle within 14" to within 3" of her. As you declare Companion at the beginning of a turn you can 'Companion' a Belle before Sybelle moves.
The upshot of this is that you can 'Companion' a Belle (or Belles if you wish), move Sybelle 12", Summon that Belle to within 3" of her and then use the Belle to move to interact with it in whatever manner is appropriate. It's entirely possible to destroy a piece of evidence, or grab some treasure and start walking back with it on turn one...if you do things in the correct order. The downside to this is that it can leave those models somewhat vulnerable if your opponent is quick as well or has decent ranged attacks.

** Feel free to include your own 'pulling one off' joke at this point if you wish.

Crew.
The Starter Set for Seamus gives you all the basics you need and they work remarkably well together.

12) Sybelle and 3 Rotten Belles comes to 18 Soulstones. If you add two to your cache then your core 20 soulstone crew effectively becomes Seamus with a cache of four, Sybelle and a nice zombie shield of three Belles.
13) What the basic crew is lacking is something that can act as a beatstick as Sybelle isn't particularly good when compared to other 'kick-ass' units though she can handle herself against more middle of the road threats quite adequately. If you wish to stay in theme then you can use a Rogue Necromancy for this purpose...if you don't care about theme then 'Izamu the Armor' is an excellent choice and is tremendous value even at his 10 soulstones cost.
14) I personally use 'The Copycat Killer' as a Totem because I like having a 2nd .50 Flintlock but to be fair 'The Grave Spirit' is probably more use purely for it's ability to add armour to an undead model. Attached to Sybelle it ups her survivability rather nicely.
15) Some extra firepower would be nice as a Seamus crew doesn't have a lot of long range (by Malifaux standards) attacks. For this purpose I use a Convict Gunslinger.
16) Dead Doxies are 'Belles' so all the things that help Rotten Belles help them too. I rarely start with Dead Doxies but I always have a couple to hand to summon from Corpse Counters later on.
17) Molly is a 'Belle' and is jokingly referred to locally as a 9 soulstone tax on themed Seamus crews...however in missions that require speed of movement she can be useful...it can be argued (rather successfully) though that this same effect can be achieved by spending those 9 soulstones on something that's actually fast in it's own right like Night Terrors which are damn quick and only cost 3 soulstones a piece.
18) Seamus's Avatar is quite a powerhouse but loses the ability to Summon Belles. Whether this matters to you is the only real reason not to spend the two soulstones to take the Avatar...the other reason is not having the model ;-)

Synergy.
19) A Seamus crew relies on the models supporting one another and a big part of that is activation order and using abilities in the correct sequence. Listing all the possible options would take a lot of time but two examples are,
a) If you need to gang up on something then Seamus uses 'Womaniser' to activate Madame Sybelle and Sybelle then Companions all the Belles which then all get to activate after their Madame. Just because you can do this doesn't mean you have to by the way. Also Seamus's 'Slit Jugular' Trigger works better if your opponent is running low on cards and/or stones so you might want to activate him last in which case just jump straight to the Madame Sybelle part of the sequence.
b) Use 'Lure' to drag enemies towards you, then kill them while they're unsupported. If appropriate to your method of killing then you may wish to use the Belles 'Undress' spell to lower their defence or 'Distract' spell to slow them down first. Seamus's Trail of fear (0) action can also lower Wp by 2 within 12" but unfortunately this ability has to compete with 'Womaniser' and 'Arise my Sweet' which are also (0) Actions.

A List.
20) For your general edification, the following is the crew I'll be using once I've properly based my Izamu the Armor'. It's not optimised but it does work well once you've got the hang of doing stuff in the correct order.


Ressurectionists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Seamus, The Mad-Hatter -- 6 Pool
+ Seamus, Avatar of Dread [2ss]
Grave Spirit [1ss]

Izamu, the Armor [10ss]
Madame Sybelle [6ss]
Rotten Belles [4ss]
Rotten Belles [4ss]
Rotten Belles [4ss]

At 40 soulstones I'll add a Convict Gunslinger and just have a cache/pool of 5 stones rather than 6.

In Conclusion.
Well I hope some of those ramblings are helpful.

Thoughts and comments are (as usual) most welcome.

Mono-Build 40K - Part 1 - A Brief Overview.

A while ago I did a blog article for the House of Paincakes Blog Network asking the question are mono-builds inevitable....

Give that a quick read first and then we'll start......

Done?

Okay then lets start with the fundamentals.

Part of the problem with 'mono-build' codices comes from the fact that 5th Edition has certain design biases that are almost unavoidable. Not convinced...allow me to continue then...

The Big Issue - Mechanisation.

If you can't deal with vehicles then your going to lose. Certain armies are limited in the amount of anti-armour that they can include in their units and others have a similar problem of having to cram all their anti-armour into a single Force Organisation Chart slot. Tyranids have issues with their 'Elite' slots as unlike armies like Marines they can't give effective anti-armour weapons to cheap troop units. Necrons used to have a similar problem but they aren't as bad now as they were previously. The overall effect is to make a certain unit obligatory in a certain 'slot' with no effective alternative being available without reducing your armies effectiveness.

Other Issues.

Certain armies are more commonly seen than others. If you can't kill Marines then your average game is going to be disappointing. This forces the competitive gamer to include in his lists solutions for dealing with common threats (which is obviously quite sensible) but has the same effect of making all armies look the same as edition biases and poor codex design.

Variations of these issues apply to virtually every codex. The ones that only have minor issues can still be used to create a wide variety of viable armies...others not so much...

I'm going to be doing a series of articles over the next week or so on those armies that are unfortunate enough to be planted firmly in the 'mono' category and try to crowbar whatever flexibility into those codices that I can.

First up will be Tyranids ;-)

Thoughts on Vulkan - Part 3 - Troops

As they're somewhat spread out (for which I apologise) the previous parts can be found at the following links,

Part One

Part Two

Okay so we covered HQ's and Elites so the next logical place is the Troops section,

Troops.
So we have a whole two choices here and as I see little use for Scouts in a Vulkan themed list so we'll move straight onto Tactical Marines.

Tactical Squad.

So our basic 5 Marine squad will set us back 90 points and requires upgrading to 10 men before we start to get access to useful toys bringing the total up to 170 points and as were already paying 190 points to gain Vulkan then we only really want to take upgrades that are complimented by him.
That means weapon-wise were looking at a Flamer or Meltagun as our special weapon, a Multi-Melta for our heavy weapon selection and possibly a Combi-Weapon (or two*) on our Sergeant. They'll obviously need some form of transport and I tend to favour Rhino's in a Vulkan list as we can shoot out of the top without exposing ourselves to anti-personnel fire.

* Yes two. Bolt Pistol can be swapped for one and so can his Boltgun. I'm not sure how often I'd do this but it's a useful way of adding an anti-personnel weapon to a squad that's gone all melta with it's options ;-)

My 'Default' Marine Configuration in a standard Marine list is usually this,

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 205 pts)
   9 Tactical Squad @ 205 pts (Flamer; Multi-melta; Rhino)
      1 Sergeant
      1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

But though it has weapons that take advantage of Vulkan's special rules it doesn't really take full advantage of them. Combi-weapons on Sergeants are a relatively cheap way of enhancing a units fire-power and with the benefit of Vulkans Twin-linking combined with BS4 is very reliable. The choices were going to have to make are between Flamer or Melta or if were feeling flush we can give him both.

I'd never really considered giving a sergeant two combi-weapons until I saw Stelek's use of two special weapons on Honour Guard Squads in Blood Angels lists and the principle seemed fairly sound. Even though Combi-Weapons are only 'one-shot' it's likely that a Marine Squad close enough to use one is going to get it's best results the first time it uses them rather than from multiple shots...not convinced?

Okay, lets take a Flamer as an example.

Your most likely to be in charge range when your using a Flamer which means that you'll be charging after using it as you don't want to be shot at and then charged by whatever it is your torching. First couple of turns will be spent getting into that position, anything that is squishy enough to be killed in a turn of assault won't need softening up anyway and anything larger or tougher will probably take a few turns to beat (or beat you) meaning your unit will probably be rendered ineffective for future combats regardless. The upshot of this is that you'll most likely only be using that Flamer once so the fact that you can only use it once isn't much of a hardship.

When using a Meltagun (or Combi-Melta) you'll find that it will inevitably (even when twin-linked) miss the one time you need it to work, lol. Having two obviously mitigates this problem somewhat and also helps out on those other occasions when a Melta weapon hits and then you roll double-one for damage...

Therefore the dual combi-weapon option is a great way of making a unit increasingly effective and enhancing it's duality substantially.

Like this,

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 230 pts)
   9 Tactical Squad @ 230 pts (Meltagun; Multi-melta; Rhino)
      1 Sergeant (Combi-Flamer x1; Combi-Meltagun x1)
      1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

The only downside to this unit is getting hold of enough combi-weapons to actually model them, lol.

Though the above unit is probably what I would use, the use of combi's allows you a number of options that become viable in a Vulkan list due to the increased reliability bought about by twin-linking. Though I said at the beginning that I'd only take weapons that Vulkan could enhance there's always the option of combat squads to divide your Marine unit into a pair of effective ones.

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 230 pts)
   9 Tactical Squad @ 230 pts (Meltagun; Missile Launcher; Rhino)
      1 Sergeant (Combi-Flamer x1; Combi-Meltagun x1)
      1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

In the above configuration half the unit stays in the Rhino and goes off tank-hunting with it's pair of Melta weapons while still having the luxury of some anti-infantry fire-power. Meanwhile the Missile Launcher half camps on an objective taking pot-shots at light armour with it's Krak missiles. This unit mitigates an inherent problem sometimes encountered with Vulakn lists, namely lack of long range shooting.

My objections to Drop Pod lists have been stated previously but there's a 'Drop' list here if anybodies still interested.

I think that'll do for now. I'll try and get Fast Attack done slightly sooner than the two week gap between parts 2 and 3.....

Thoughts and comments are (as usual) most welcome.

Thoughts on Vulkan - Part 2 - HQ's and Elites.

So I've already given some of my thoughts on the advantages and disadvantages of Vulkan. Now I think it's time to look at what units he'd work best in an army with. I'm only going to discuss units that I think work and not the ones I don't. If you feel like I've missed out something important then that's what the unmoderated* comments section is for.

* I've never deleted a critical comment (other than a few links to porn sites that I deemed inappropriate) and have no intention of starting any-time soon ;-)

Let's start at the top.

HQ's.
Vulkan is a big chunk of points all on his own so adding a 2nd HQ isn't necessarily a great idea. there are (imo) only three choices that you could consider.

1) Master of the Forge - If your planning on a Drop Pod build to take advantage of all those super accurate short range weapons then the MotF becomes essential as soon as you want that 4th Dreadnought.

2) Librarian - Purely for psychic defence as he doesn't really have any other abilities complimented by Vulkan.

3) Captain on Bike - There have been a few people who make use of hybrid builds in conjunction with Vulkan as a Space Marine Biker unit can potentially have 4 melta weapons (Multi-Melta, 2 Meltaguns and a Combi-Melta) or 3 Flamer weapons (2 Flamers and a Combi-Flamer) in it which would work well in combination with Vulkans abilities in that area. Combinations are also a possibility but we'll discuss those more fully later.

Those options do however eat into our points allowances.

Vulkan + Master of the Forge (290 points)
Vulkan + Librarian (290 points)
Vulkan + Biker Captain (325 points)

It's also unlikely that you'll send that Biker out without at least a Relic Blade so the points for him can soon mount up.

Elites.
Well were spoiled for choice here. Lets start with Dreadnoughts then,

Dreadnoughts.

For 105 points we get a basic Dreadnought with a Power Fist and a Multi-Melta, for 10 more points we can add a Heavy Flamer and for another 35 we can stick it in a Drop Pod.

I have some reservations about the use of 'Drop Dreads' as an overall strategy. Though at 2000 points it's possible to have a first wave of 5 Dreadnoughts (a somewhat scary proposition) an enemy who knows how to 'bubblewrap' can counter some or all of that and there are a great many competitive builds that will put a considerable dent in that pile of Dreadnoughts should they not manage to cripple the opposing army straight away.The fact that you have to drop half of your pods (rounding up) can also leave you vulnerable to opponents who play reserve games. That's not to say that walking Dreadnoughts don't have some issues of their own but they seem (in my experience anyway) much easier to protect. Heavy Flamers become somewhat less useful on a non-drop Dreadnought as the short range means you won't always get to use it. I'm a big fan of them but that Heavy Flamer is also the first thing I lose should I need 10 points for something.

So were talking about either,

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 105 pts)
   1 Dreadnought @ 105 pts

Or,

Elite: Dreadnought (2#, 150 pts)
   1 Dreadnought @ 150 pts (Heavy Flamer; Drop Pod)
      1 Drop Pod (Drop Pod Assault)

Ironclad Dreadnoughts can be mixed in with those should you desire. Their slightly more survivable than a normal Dreadnought (but an average roll with a short range Melta weapon still kills them just fine), are effective at a much shorter range and are a bit more expensive once you give them some extra toys. My personal opinion is too stick with the standard one in a 'Vulkan' build but others may disagree.

Sternguard.

Now available in Finecast. I leave you to decide whether that's a good or bad thing...

If ever there was a unit made to compliment Vulkan than this is it. Options for Combi-weapons on every man, up to 2 Heavy Flamers and a host of ammunition types to deal with all those other things that you might come across. A Sternguard unit upgraded with Combi-Meltas and Heavy Flamers can pretty much deal with anything. They also have the standard Marine transport options giving you a fair bit of flexibility including Drop Pods which I still have reservations about in a number of areas which may be worth a blog post of it's own.......

Anyway.....I'd be looking at something like this,

Elite: Sternguard Veteran Squad (6#, 195 pts)
   4 Sternguard Veteran Squad @ 195 pts (Combi-Meltagun x2; Heavy Flamer x2; Rhino)
      1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun x1)
      1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

If you want bigger units then just add Sternguard with Combi-Meltas till your happy with the quantities. Three units like the above are a significant threat without needing extra men. This sort of unit needs a Rhino rather than a Razorback as doing a 'drive-by shooting' out the top never get's old, lol.

Terminators.
I'm sure you know which sort I'm going to be discussing....

No.....

Here's a clue,

I should really get around to painting and basing that Librarian/Sorcerer...

The Thunderhammer/Storm Shield Assault Terminator is arguably one of the most cost effect units in any codex though they have some inherent problems. Stick them in a Land Raider and their transport will more often than not be dead to your opponents 'suicide' melta units (or non-Marine equivalent) and torrents of fire can kill everything eventually. Deep striking is a tad unreliable and using 'Gate of Infinity' obviously requires a Librarian. However you get them into combat once you do they make short work of most things. Just be careful of Hordes bogging them down as enough attacks will down even a 2+/3+ save eventually ;-)

So we have the following options,

Elite: Terminator Assault Squad (6#, 475 pts)
   4 Terminator Assault Squad @ 475 pts (Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x4; Land Raider Crusader)
      1 Sergeant (Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x1)
      1 Land Raider Crusader (Extra Armor; Multi-Melta)

Expensive and pretty much the definition of a 'rock' unit.

Elite: Terminator Assault Squad (5#, 200 pts)
   4 Terminator Assault Squad @ 200 pts (Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x4)
      1 Sergeant (Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x1)

Deep strike and hope there's no mishaps. Probably best used in conjunction with a Homer of some description ;-)

HQ: Space Marine Librarian (1#, 100 pts)
   1 Space Marine Librarian @ 100 pts (...in Power Armour; Null Zone; The Gate of Infinity)
      1 ...in Power Armour

Elite: Terminator Assault Squad (10#, 400 pts)
   9 Terminator Assault Squad @ 400 pts (Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x9)
      1 Sergeant (Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x1)

An amusing unit but a scary amount of points to lose to a mishap. Also probably best used in conjunction with a homer of some description depending upon how brave you are, lol.

Okay I think that'll do for now. I'll cover the rest in the next day or so.

Thoughts and Comments are (as usual) most welcome.

Thoughts on Vulkan - Part 1

Vulkan as a special character breaks what used to be (as far as I was concerned anyway) one of the fundamental rules of army enhancing special characters, namely that they improve your army in a single way that then by default forces you to design an army in a certain way to compliment that speciality.

Vulkan breaks this truism by improving both your armies anti-tank (re-rolls to hit with Melta weaponry) and anti-infantry (re-rolls to wound with Flamers) as well as being a fairly potent assault unit in his own right. Of course it could be argued that both those types of weaponry are relatively short range which admittedly does force you to design a relatively short range army if you want to get the best of these benefits. In addition the fact that he makes Thunderhammers Master Crafted which makes an already impressive unit (Thunderhammer + Storm Shield Terminators) even further reinforces that 'short-range' theme.

As for Vulkan himself he has an impressive 4x, WS 6, S 6 attacks on the charge at an initiative of 5. Having both a Master Crafted weapon (one re-roll to hit) and Digital Weapons (one re-roll to wound) he's doing a consistent 3 to 4 kills a turn unless he (well you. I suppose) rolls atrociously. He has a 2+ armour save and a 3+ invulnerable save which makes him fairly survivable against most anti-infantry though his lack of 'Eternal Warrior' can be a concern against certain weapons (Power Fists/Klaws being the first thing that leaps to mind). Against anything that doesn't insta-kill him he has the standard 'Captain' compliment of 3 wounds.

Lets turn to Mathshammer briefly to see how much of a difference his 'Chapter tactics' actually make.

Lets start with every Marine players favourite anti-tank weapon, the Meltagun.

Probably not a Meltagun if I'm being honest...

A standard Marine (BS 4) has a 67% chance of hitting his target. With 'twin-linking' that becomes 89% which is a significant improvement to hit. Obviously your chance of destroying a vehicle after it's hit stays the same but taking into account all the benefits of the 'Melta' rule, Strength 8 and an AP of 1 that's pretty good odds. Of course, against infantry that changes the odds of a kill against most none MC's from 56% to 74% with the benefit of causing instant death to any character of Toughness 4 or below who's unfortunate enough not to have the 'Eternal Warrior' rule and fails his Invulnerable save.

Flamers are slightly different as they hit automatically we then move onto a higher chance to wound instead.

...This is definately a Flamer though.

Vs. T4 this ups the chance of a wound to 89% from 67% and makes a wound against T3 pretty much a certainty ( 97% if were being picky). As most T3 units have an armour save in the 4+ to 6+ range this means anything it hits is pretty much toast ;-)

Master crafted on a Thunderhammer makes our average 2 hits from 3 attacks on the charge into 2.67 which more often than not is going to mean 3 hits each. 15 hits from a unit of 5 Thunderhammer Terminators is going to make a fucking mess of most enemies and even makes hordes think "what the fuck was that", lol.

So he makes the premier Marine anti-tank, anti-infantry and 'Death-Star' units more awesome than they were before. Seems like a no-brainer choice, right?

Well not all the time. The loss of 'Combat Tactics' can be a great blow to many standard 'Best-Of' marine builds and you've also got to find somewhere to put the bugger. In a standard 'Best-Of' Marine list the Rhino's are going to be already full of Tactical Marines and putting 190 points of combat character in with an objective holding unit is a bit of a waste. Putting him in a razorback removes your ability to do what my FLGS has affectionately named 'Drive-By's' where you shoot your Melta's and or Flamers out of the Firing point of the Rhino and also makes your opponents target priority pretty simple. The old stand-by of Character + Terminators + Land Raider is still there as an option but any decent player will have 'suicide' and or 'blocking' units to get in it's way.

So I'm basically saying that he's good but is tricky to reliably fit into a standard list. So is there an answer then?

Well in part 2 we'll look at what unit configurations he compliments best and then see where that leaves us from a list building point of view.

Thoughts and Comments are (as usual) most welcome.

List Design for Beginners - Part 3(a) - What Army to Choose?

After being nagged about it for a while I'm going to continue with a series I started many months ago and then for some reason completely abandoned. 

For those of you without photographic memories or who for some reason didn't follow my blog back then here is Part 1 which as tradition dictates was followed by Part 2. If you could all just ignore the reference to 'tomorrow' at the end of part 2 as well that would be lovely ;-)

Okay. I covered the different roles that are fulfilled by various types of units and their places in the Force Organisation Chart but that in itself raises the question of which Codex you should choose to start with. Many of you will already have a firm idea of which army you like based on any number of reasons from 'The models look cool' to 'I'm told this codex never loses', however it's a sad fact that certain people choose codices that are unsuitable for their perceived army concept or attempt to make armies do things for which they are not designed. I'm therefore going to go through the codices one by one and give you an idea of what army types get the best out of them. This will by its inherent nature be an 'overview' so don't get all tetchy should I skim over a build you think is awesome...

As no more suitable system springs to mind lets get all alphabetical on this thing,

Blood Angels.

Like most of the more recent codices Blood Angels can be used in a wide variety of ways. However, their special rules and unit choices push them in certain directions if you want to get the best from them.

Jumpers - No not the woolly outer garment that your mother made you wear in order to prevent colds but rather a force made entirely (or almost entirely) out of Marines with Jump Packs. Due to the 'Descent of Angels' special rule allowing you to re-roll failed reserve rolls on your Jump Pack units and also reducing your scatter to a single D6 you can produce a force that hides in reserve and then turns up pretty much simultaneously while landing exactly (or as near as damn it) wherever you like. Combine this with the Scoring nature of your Assault Squads (They're troops in case you were wondering) and you have a very mobile force. It is however by it's very nature an offensive force which wins by getting into your face as quickly as possible and then kicking the shit out of you.

Mech - Another handy thing about the Blood Angels is that all their vehicles based around a Rhino chassis (Rhino's, Razorbacks, Vindicators, etc.) are 'Fast' vehicles. This gives you more mobility than most Marine forces while still enabling you to dish out a lot of shooting. Having an additional shooty tank (the 'Baal' Predator) in the Fast Attack section allows you to field a veritable wall off Armour 13 while still leaving plenty of points for a Rhino Rush or Razorback Spam as part of your army. Due to the ability to take a Inferno Pistol or Hand Flamer on your Sergeant combined with the ability to take a special weapon even with a minimum squad size of 5, Blood Angel Razorback Spam lists are in the rare position of being able to take a Razorback Spam list that still contains a useful Troop choice inside it either with dual melta (anti-tank) or dual flamer (anti-infantry). Most of the other codices simply use the troops to make the Razorback scoring (for as long as they're in it, obviously) but they tend to be pretty useless once they're de-meched.

Hybrid - You can of course do a mixture of the above two options, but in my opinion if your a beginner then its best to pick a theme and go with it.

The Others - You can take Sanguinary Guard as Troops if you also take Dante as your HQ and can field an army of Death Company if you take Astorath the Grim. Neither of those are 'Beginner' armies as they require particular strategies to get the best of. The Dante + Sanguinary Guard army in particular can cause problems for even an experienced player to get the best of.

Chaos Daemons.

I start this section with a warning...The Chaos Daemon Codex has some serious issues...Not put off?

Here goes then,

Your whole army deep strikes in but unlike every other codex with a 'Drop' build has absolutely no way to increase its reliability in the first stages and then has to pay a premium of 25 points per Icon to increase that reliability in subsequent turns. Combine this with the fact that you start off with only half an army and that 33% of the time you end up with the opposite half and you can see why I said the army had serious issues.Builds that work well are in extremely short supply but the two most common are,

Cavalry - Take units that are Beasts or Cavalry in every slot in which they are available and hope that enough survives your opponents first shooting phase to still be an assault threat later.

'Bolt Spam' - Take the 'Bolt of Tzeentch' Daemonic Gift in every slot you can in order to pop vehicles and fill the rest with the above mentioned cavalry units.

The Others - You can take Fateweaver (who gives rerolls to your Daemons invulnerable saves within a certain radius) and hope nobody gets through his bodyguards (they will, though) or take a pure Nurgle force with Epidemius (who gradually improves the Nurgle units as the body-count rises) but unfortunately the 'count' only increases if he's on the table and that 33% chance of the wrong half (without him in it) showing up will majorly screw you over. As with other character reliant armies these both have major weaknesses and I wouldn't recommend them as a 'starter' army.

Daemons are not a user friendly army in any way, shape or form and it would be remiss of me to recommend them to a beginner. I have however listed the options anyway as people sometimes ignore my advice no matter how sage it may seem to the more sensible among you ;-)

Chaos Space Marines.

A cool idea that's ruined by poor codex design. Virtually everything in the codex is over-pointed and can be outperformed by similar units in other codices. That is not to say that a Chaos army cannot be successful but rather that it is a far less forgiving Marine Codex than any of the others. Before the Chaos players get too depressed lets look at a few builds that at least have a moderate chance of success.

Chaos MC - It's possible to cram a pair of Daemon Princes, a Greater Daemon, three Dreadnoughts and three Defilers (basically big Dreadnoughts with a Battlecannon) into a list and pretend like your a 4th edition Nidzilla list...It looks scarier than it actually is but can be made viable with good deployment and a bit of skill.

Rhino Rush - If you have enough Multiple Small Units (MSU) moving forward with a good mix of Meltas and Flamers in those units then at least some of them might survive long enough to get stuck into the enemy. If you like Rhino's and don't mind having 20 Kill Points in a list then this might be worth considering.

Dual Lash - Daemon Princes or Sorcerors with Lash of Submission combined with Obliterators is a tried and tested Chaos Space Marine variant. It is somewhat less effective with the trend for mechanisation that 5th edition favours but it certainly is an option to consider if you like the idea of moving your enemy infantry into clumps and then dropping Plasma Cannon Blasts on them ;-)

The Chaos Marine codex is another of the ones that suffers from overall bad design. if you like the imagery of Chaos then few people would condemn you for picking a different codex altogether and attempting to crowbar some Chaos models into it in the form of 'Counts-As' units.

I think those three will do for today. Next time we'll have a look at what the Dark Eldar, Eldar and Grey Knights have to offer.

Thoughts and Comments are (as usual) most welcome.

E-Mail In : Marine List Help.

E-Mail In :


Hey there GMort,


I basically made the same post over on YTTH after I couldn't find your blog anymore. The funny thing is, I was specifically looking for your blog because I knew you actually played the list I'm going to post. Luckily enough, I ended up stumbling over your blog after all. I don't even remember how I did it.


Here's the list:


Librarian (Gate of Infinity, Null Zone)
10x Assault Terminators (10x Shield/Hammer)
3x Las/Plas Razorback w/ 5 Tactical Marines
2x Landspeeder (Stormbolter, Typhoon Rockets)
1x Landspeeder (Multimelta, Heavy Flamer)
3x Predator (Autocannon, Stormbolters)
---
1500 points total


The first two games I hung back a lot to maximize the shots my Razorbacks can dish out every round. Both of them were objective missions and I think I might have to move around (a lot) more. The third game was a KP mission in which I ran my Terminators into midfield largely unsupported because I overestimated their survivability when an entire army fires at them. A few other stupid mistakes made me lose quite horribly.


Anyway, to the questions:


1) How do I move my Razorbacks? From what I understand you charge Rhinos 12", smoke and make a train of sorts to deliver your army into midfield but they don't lose the firepower a Razorback does.


2) I only have 3 tiny Tac Squads and I'd lose Razorback shots by moving around too much. Is my Marine squad good for anything besides holding objectives? When should I drop them off to shoot something or move around and how do I deliver them to far-off objectives?


3) Should I ever move my Predators? For example to protect my Razorbacks from fire. I've had them at long range just firing all-out every game so far.


4) How do I move my Rocket Landspeeders and keep them safe? I've had huge trouble keeping my Landspeeders alive for any good amount of time. Should I prioritize their survival and possibly sacrifice some shots or should I try to deal as much damage with them until they (inevitably) die? I understand you changed your Typhoons to MM/HF ones. Does this work out for you? Can you deal with light infantry appropriately if you don't have any long-range templates? I was given to understand my army doesn't have enough shots each round to combat e.g. a ton of Orks to begin with.


5) What do I do with my Terminators? I tried using them to protect my other units but it hasn't worked out very well for me. I understand they have decent mobility with Gate, so should I use them offensively for the most part?


6) Is there a realistic way to deal with Land Raiders if my MM/HF Landspeeder whiffs or is placed out of range when it strikes in? Should I even try to deal with them if I can't kill them with the Landspeeder? Should I change my Typhoons to MM/HF Speeders? Lascannons and rockets don't seem to cut it.


As you can probably see I'm rather new to the hobby, having played only 3 games so far. The people at GW always tell me they don't want to talk me into changing my list and stuff because I need to play what I like. In the end though I feel like you improve faster if you get people to help you and point out the intricacies of the game. I mean, no one starts maths by coming up with all the formulas themselves.


Any help you could give is much appreciated. I hope my wall of text isn't too daunting to read.


Greetings,
fj


Reply :

Okay we'll go through these in order but a few things first. Though I still use that list fairly often I have made a few minor modifications to it.

I found the lack of Melta caused me a few problems against armies with more than one Land Raider and any Imperial Guard army with armour 14 front vehicles sitting in front of their squishier ones. I also got bored of my Librarian being punched dead before he got a chance to Force Weapon something to death. I therefore modified the list slightly to this,


1500 Pts - Space Marines Roster - Ver 1.1 'Thunder' list.

Its got more paint on it now than it did when I took this pic...

HQ: Space Marine Librarian (1#, 140 pts)
   1 Space Marine Librarian @ 140 pts (...in Terminator Armour; The Gate of Infinity; Vortex of Doom)
      1 ...in Terminator Armour (Storm Shield)

Elite: Terminator Assault Squad (10#, 400 pts)
   9 Terminator Assault Squad @ 400 pts (Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x9)
      1 Sergeant (Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x1)

Troops: Tactical Squad (6#, 165 pts)
   4 Tactical Squad @ 165 pts (Razorback)
      1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Bolter)
      1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Troops: Tactical Squad (6#, 165 pts)
   4 Tactical Squad @ 165 pts (Razorback)
      1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Bolter)
      1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Troops: Tactical Squad (6#, 165 pts)
   4 Tactical Squad @ 165 pts (Razorback)
      1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Bolter)
      1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 70 pts)
   1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 70 pts (Multi-Melta x1; Heavy Flamer x1)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 70 pts)
   1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 70 pts (Multi-Melta x1; Heavy Flamer x1)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 70 pts)
   1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 70 pts (Multi-Melta x1; Heavy Flamer x1)

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)
   1 Predator @ 85 pts (Heavy Bolter (each side))

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)
   1 Predator @ 85 pts (Heavy Bolter (each side))

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)
   1 Predator @ 85 pts (Heavy Bolter (each side))

Total Roster Cost: 1500

Okay now to answer your questions,

Q1) How do I move my Razorbacks? From what I understand you charge Rhinos 12", smoke and make a train of sorts to deliver your army into midfield but they don't lose the firepower a Razorback does.
A1)  What you do with your Razorbacks depends entirely on the mission. In a mission with 2 objectives then you can often get away with having a single Razorback (and the unit inside it, obviously) sit on your own objective surrounded by a wall of Predators and move everything else forward. In a multiple objective mission (3 or more objectives) then I'd recommend a similar strategy. Unless an easy 'gift horse' is presented then I simply decide which objective I'm keeping and aim to contest the hell out of all the others or wipe out what's on a couple and then contest the others.
If you are facing an army with a lot of 'drop' units of one form or another (especially ones with a high chance of arriving early) you can create a wall of 'bubblewrap' using your Terminators, Landspeeders or a combination of both to protect your Razorbacks. There isn't much that will be able to land and put a significant dent in 10 Assault Terminators with Storm Shields and their inability to charge on the turn they land means your inevitable counter-attack should destroy most things.
If you need to sacrifice a turn or two of shooting in order to get into a better position for attacking your opponents objectives then that's a worthwhile sacrifice.


Q2) I only have 3 tiny Tac Squads and I'd lose Razorback shots by moving around too much. Is my Marine squad good for anything besides holding objectives? When should I drop them off to shoot something or move around and how do I deliver them to far-off objectives?
A2) I wouldn't recommend getting your Marines out of their Razorback unless there's an extremely squishy and completely unsupported unit that has foolishly moved close. Against anything able to defend itself then your probably better off putting some rapid-firing Plasma and a Lascannon shot into it from the Razorback instead. Don't move out unsupported until your fire-power has removed any significant threats to those units. As for far off objectives (as mentioned in answer 1) you can hold your own and contest the others. When you place objectives bear in mind how far away they are from each other, whether they're near cover and other such factors at the time you place them. You should already have an idea of how your going to deploy at this point, but I'm afraid that comes with experience and is difficult to teach reliably based on the near infinite combinations of terrain, opponent, objective location, etc.

Q3) Should I ever move my Predators? For example to protect my Razorbacks from fire. I've had them at long range just firing all-out every game so far.
A3) Basically your Predators are going to stay where you put them so make sure that's where you wanted them. Sitting behind your Predators with your Razorbacks and just shooting the shit out of everything while your Terminators Gate/Run forward is an entirely viable strategy and in Kill Point missions is more often than not your best plan.

Q4) How do I move my Rocket Landspeeders and keep them safe? I've had huge trouble keeping my Landspeeders alive for any good amount of time. Should I prioritize their survival and possibly sacrifice some shots or should I try to deal as much damage with them until they (inevitably) die? I understand you changed your Typhoons to MM/HF ones. Does this work out for you? Can you deal with light infantry appropriately if you don't have any long-range templates? I was given to understand my army doesn't have enough shots each round to combat e.g. a ton of Orks to begin with.
A4) Heavy Flamer Landspeeders will do more damage to a horde army than a couple of Frag Missiles ever will. If you want to keep the Missile Launcher Speeders then deploy one in each corner and keep on shooting till they die. You can move 12" and still fire both the Heavy Bolter and Frag Missiles as Frag counts as defensive due to it only being Strength 4.  However in my opinion 3 Heavy Flamers, 3 lots of Predator fire-power is more than sufficient anti-infantry at 1500 points which is another reason why I changed the list slightly.

Q5) What do I do with my Terminators? I tried using them to protect my other units but it hasn't worked out very well for me. I understand they have decent mobility with Gate, so should I use them offensively for the most part?
A5) Against armies that come to me I use them as a counter assault unit. Against anything else I use them as offensively as possible.


Q6) Is there a realistic way to deal with Land Raiders if my MM/HF Landspeeder whiffs or is placed out of range when it strikes in? Should I even try to deal with them if I can't kill them with the Landspeeder? Should I change my Typhoons to MM/HF Speeders? Lascannons and rockets don't seem to cut it.
A6) I changed the Typhoons to MM/HF Landspeeders for exactly those reasons.


I hope that answered your queries adequately. If you give me some examples of the sort of armies you face then I can give you some specific deployment strategies that may help, just let me know ;-)

Thoughts and comments are (as usual) most welcome.

Killing Grey Knights with Daemons - Part 4 : The All Important List.

So taking all that we've learned in previous posts let's see if we can make ourselves a balanced list that can kill Grey Knights without becoming useless against everything else.

I'm going to aim for a 2000 point list and people can scale it back if they feel so inclined.

Lets start with HQ's

As discussed we need Bolt of Tzeentch in order to de-mech our opponents. Most 5th edition armies with the exception of Tyranids (and Daemons obviously) are going to have a lot of vehicles that we need to pop. A Grey Knight Razorback Spam list will more than likely have disembarked a lot of their units in order to get maximum benefit from their unit fire-power but in a Kill Point game we'll still want those transports dead.

Though a Slaaneshi Herald is useful for it's speed and high initiative we can get similar benefits in other slots. What we don't get much of in other slots is anti-vehicle shooting so we'll be taking some of these guys,

HQ: Herald of Tzeentch (1#, 95 pts)
   1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 95 pts (Bolt of Tzeentch; Chariot of Tzeentch)

There isn't a picture of a Herald of Tzeentch so I used this instead.

For our 95 points we get a moderately survivable BoT platform. Due to Heralds only taking up half a HQ slot we can take for of these and are going to.

So that's 380 points spent,

Now we need to kill things quickly and for that our best options in the elite slot are Fiends of Slaanesh. We'll take full units of six and give one of them in each unit Unholy Might.

Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 190 pts)
   6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 190 pts (Unholy Might x1)

Three of those sets us back another 570 points bringing our running total to 950. Time for some troops methinks,

My personal preference is two objective holding units with at least another two moving forward. The best choice for defensive are Plaguebearers and our best choice for offensive is Bloodletters. We'll take a pair of minimum sized Plaguebearer units and a couple of mid sized Bloodletter units.

Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
   5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts

Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
   5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts

Troops: Bloodletters of Khorne (10#, 160 pts)
   10 Bloodletters of Khorne @ 160 pts

Troops: Bloodletters of Khorne (10#, 160 pts)
   10 Bloodletters of Khorne @ 160 pts

That's another 470 points spent bringing our current total to 1420.

We'll skip Fast attack for now and jump to Heavy Support as our four Bolts of Tzeentch aren't really enough. As discussed previously a Tzeentch Daemon Princes BS of 5 makes him a reliable gun platform and the increased invulnerable save helps their survivability. We'll take three of those then...

Heavy Support: Daemon Prince of Chaos (1#, 140 pts)
   1 Daemon Prince of Chaos @ 140 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt of Tzeentch)

That's another 420 more points gone, leaving us with 160 left to spend. Back to Fast Attack then ;-)

We decided that Flesh Hounds of Khorne were our best option but we unfortunately can't afford three lots. Lets settle for the one then. A unit of 10 will set us back 150 points,

Fast Attack: Flesh Hounds of Khorne (10#, 150 pts)
   10 Flesh Hounds of Khorne @ 150 pts

Bringing our total to 1990 points.

However, I'd really like Karanak in this unit and he'll put us 25 points over our 2000 point limit.

Fast Attack: Flesh Hounds of Khorne (10#, 185 pts)
   9 Flesh Hounds of Khorne @ 185 pts
      1 Karanak, Hound of Vengeance

Total 2025 points.

Time for a slight re-think. Unfortunately due to my awesome powers of optimisation there aren't really many points to spare without reducing unit sizes and that's a bad idea, especially at 2000 points.

The only place I can think of to get those points is from the Fiends 'Unholy Might'. So would losing that upgrade cause us many problems?

Well the only things in the Grey Knight Codex that are higher than Toughness four are Draigo and Karamazov (T5) and the Dreadknight (T6). We'll still be wounding the first two on 4's and the Dreadknight on 5's but as it's very likely that Dark Excommunication will remove that extra strength as well as our rending claws should we attack a Dreadknight then the difference between Strength 5 and 6 on one model isn't that much really.In addition our stupidly low chance of penetrating armour 14 via rending becomes a stupidly low chance of glancing armour 14 via rending. The Daemon Prince will just have to deal with those...

Okay so we can have Karanak now which makes our final list look like this,

2000 Pts - Chaos Daemons Roster

HQ: Herald of Tzeentch (1#, 95 pts)
   1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 95 pts (Bolt of Tzeentch; Chariot of Tzeentch)

HQ: Herald of Tzeentch (1#, 95 pts)
   1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 95 pts (Bolt of Tzeentch; Chariot of Tzeentch)

HQ: Herald of Tzeentch (1#, 95 pts)
   1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 95 pts (Bolt of Tzeentch; Chariot of Tzeentch)

HQ: Herald of Tzeentch (1#, 95 pts)
   1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 95 pts (Bolt of Tzeentch; Chariot of Tzeentch)

Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 180 pts)
   6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 180 pts

Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 180 pts)
   6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 180 pts

Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 180 pts)
   6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 180 pts

Troops: Bloodletters of Khorne (10#, 160 pts)
   10 Bloodletters of Khorne @ 160 pts

Troops: Bloodletters of Khorne (10#, 160 pts)
   10 Bloodletters of Khorne @ 160 pts

Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
   5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts

Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
   5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts

Fast Attack: Flesh Hounds of Khorne (10#, 185 pts)
   9 Flesh Hounds of Khorne @ 185 pts
      1 Karanak, Hound of Vengeance

Heavy Support: Daemon Prince of Chaos (1#, 140 pts)
   1 Daemon Prince of Chaos @ 140 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt of Tzeentch)

Heavy Support: Daemon Prince of Chaos (1#, 140 pts)
   1 Daemon Prince of Chaos @ 140 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt of Tzeentch)

Heavy Support: Daemon Prince of Chaos (1#, 140 pts)
   1 Daemon Prince of Chaos @ 140 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt of Tzeentch)

Total Roster Cost: 1995

As for 'Waves' I'd drop the four Heralds, two lots of Bloodletters and one of the Daemon Princes first. The second wave would then be 2 Daemon Princes, 3 lots of Fiends and the Flesh Hounds. That way we should be able to pop a few transports while giving our opponent the worry about choosing between neutralising the shooting or stopping the Bloodletters before they get a chance to assault something, with the Daemon Prince being a worry in both areas. Then our 2nd wave should consist of our dangerous close combat units ready to assault the (hopefully by now) disembarked units on turns three and onwards and our objective holding units to.....well....hold objectives.

Should we be unfortunate enough to get our non preferred wave then at least we have two shooty units and 48, T4 wounds worth of assault units for our opponent to deal with before they get in his face on (hopefully) turn two.

Well that (imo) is a balanced Daemon list that can handle Grey Knights (with a bit of luck and good planning) and everything else with a fair chance of success.

Of course if anybody has any better ideas then I'm open to suggestions ;-)