Runaround and a Red Herring Avoided

Just finished up a session of Missions & Mayhem: Cryptids & Conspiracy. 

The mission was to investigate strange things going on in a small Indiana town. Why Indiana? Well, first of all I went to college there so it's an area I know well. Second, Indiana is sort of the liminal space of U.S. states. It's just so bloody normal that you know weird things have got to be going on there. 

Anyway, for this mission, there were obvious attempts by the shadowy conspiracy group to divert them from their mission. Also, competition to solve the mystery first. There didn't end up being a showdown with agents of the conspiracy, but the party fairly quickly diverted from the red herring (not knowing yet that it was a red herring) into the clues that led to the actual mystery. 

It was a lot of talking, and not much die rolling. I got to play a bunch of quirky small town NPCs (many based on or at least inspired by folks I knew either growing up in Illinois or from my uni years in Evansville). The players seemed to enjoy it, especially when one of my NPCs struck a chord and they could recognize that exact sort of person from their own experience. I did a few voices, but mostly stuck to impressions of mannerisms and different speech patterns to differentiate the various NPCs. It was pretty fun for me, too. 

Before we got into the adventure, we went over the Cryptids & Conspiracy advanced classes. Jada's Hero (PC) Sarah doesn't qualify yet, but she's interested in taking the Occultist class to get some ability with magic. We haven't done any occult/spiritual/undead adventures yet, but that will probably be coming soon. Next adventure, I want to lean into the psychic ability rules. Justin suggested they all make new psychic powered PCs and we do a power battle. 

I could probably run with something like that. Maybe the psychics and battle minds have to escape from captivity in a secret research institute run by the conspiracy group. Then we could go back to the regular PCs who are investigating. The players will have new knowledge of the conspiracy group, like when we get to see scenes in a book or movie from the bad guys' perspective. 

Who Did Worldbuilding Advice Better, TSR or WOTC?

 Recently, there was a comment on JB's excellent B/X Blackrazor blog by Simulated Knave claiming that they found 1E AD&D lacked solid advice for interaction with NPCs outside of combat or for worldbuilding, something that the commenter found that 3E D&D/Pathfinder was better at. 

Now, I've played a bit of PF but it has been many years since, and I never had the books. I've only briefly looked at the PF 2E thing. So maybe the good folks at Paizo went above and beyond with advice for NPC interaction and worldbuilding. But I did play plenty of 3E/3.5 D&D, and I have those books on PDF still to reference. 

WAY back, I did also make this post about how OD&D has more pages of rules for exploration of the game world than for combat within the game system. The sixth post I ever made here. I think that's relevant to the discussion as a bit of context.

Let's examine Simulated Knave's claim. 

Of course, SK, if you're reading this, feel free to comment and let me know if I misunderstood your intent or points you brought up. It's always possible, and I'm open to having my mind changed on this front. 

Also, one last disclaimer. As most regular readers know, I'm a Frank Mentzer edited BECMI kid. That's my go-to D&D set. And Frank did a pretty good job (I feel) giving the budding DM advice on how to build the dungeon, how to build the home town, how to build the world, and how to set up the politics, and how to set up the planes of existence/powers that be/legendary artifacts* of the world all in an easily digestible format that provides just enough advice to get you going on each of these fronts without overwhelming. 

*Having only relatively recently acquired the Immortals Set, and still not having read and digested it thoroughly, I do have to admit that a bit more advice on creating planar adventures could be helpful than what's in the Companion and Masters Sets. 

But the claim by Simulated Knave was about AD&D giving "garbage" advice compared to d20 system games. 

So let's start with d20. 

3E etc. obviously have some simple and direct player facing rules for NPC interactions. There are skills for lying to NPCs, sweet talking with NPCs, trying to see if the NPC is lying to you, and so on. Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Perform...are there anymore? Maybe I'm missing one or two. Roll d20+skill bonuses vs a set DC or the NPC's contested roll. 

Sure, it's simple, it's easy to remember, it's in the PHB so players can know the rules. But it doesn't always make sense. I don't care that you've got a +15 bonus to Intimidate, your Barbarian with the +5 greataxe is not going to make the Lich Lord, who commands the army of the dead outside the gate, tremble in his boots. I don't care what you say, or that you rolled a natural 20. Maybe try again after his army has been decimated and you've located his last phylactery. Then you might have a chance.

And yes, I know that d20 has advice to not allow a roll in that sort of situation, but I've seen plenty of players demand things like that over the years. 

What advice or rules does the 3E DMG (I found my 3.0 DMG before the 3.5 one, so I'm referencing that) have for interactions with NPCs outside of combat? 

Two pages on using the Leadership feat to manage sidekicks and cohorts for PCs, including a half page sidebar on animal companions. 

Then we've got a bunch of pages on NPC stat blocks (mostly combat stats). And a big section going over all of the combat rules, procedures, and so on. It's 25 pages long. 

Then there are a few pages on dealing with environmental dangers, which counts as world building advice. 

The next section is on skill and ability checks, so we get detailed rules on how each skill can be used, and example difficulties for them. This includes the various skills for NPC interaction mentioned above, of course. It's a little over 4 pages. Then we're on to saving throws and adjudicating magic. The second part could be considered world building advice. 

Now we get into the dungeon, wilderness, adventure and campaign creation advice. And it covers around 60 pages for all that. But with in that, it's not all world building advice. A lot of it is combat encounter creation advice. Or how to mechanically handle traps. Or dungeon dressing suggestions. Encounter tables. Random town generation. Advice on linking adventures and player goals into a coherent campaign. Not bad stuff, but a lot of it reads as very surface level to me. There are world building tidbits in there, but also a lot of combat encounter (or challenges requiring skill checks) explained, more so than there is advice on crafting a fantasy world. There is world building advice, as I say, but I don't find it as deep as SK seems to. Or maybe the 3.5 DMG or Pathfinder improved on this base. 

There is a section in all of this on running NPCs. Or rather, there's some advice on the stock types of NPCs you might include in an adventure or campaign, and advice on how to use them as allies or opponents. There are some rules for DCs to influence NPC attitudes. Some hirelings you could hire explained. 

After all this, there's the XP and treasure sections, some reference charts, and the index. 

So for NPC interaction, SK claims that 3E/PF provide the following: "What are the odds of sneaking past an NPC? Of stealing from them? Of convincing them of something? Of them knowing some particular fact? Of them existing at all in the particular town?"

3E does do these things. But AD&D gives you all of that, as well. It's different. Instead of giving you the NPC's Perception skill for the player to roll their Stealth score against, AD&D gives you the surprise round and the Thief skills for hiding and moving silently. AD&D has NPC reaction tables. In fact, they're more robust than 3E's. It's got modifiers for racial animosity, for example, in addition to general reaction rolls. How do you decide in AD&D that a particular NPC lives in a particular community or knows a certain thing? Well, that's called making a decision on your own, rather than rolling some dice. 

All of the NPC interaction that SK seems to laud in d20 systems is just a very mechanical functional take on interaction. d20 gives you lots of skills and difficulty numbers to beat, while AD&D gives you actual advice on crafting a medieval fantasy world (granted, a very specifically Gygaxian one) and lets you extrapolate from there how you want your NPCs to interact with the PCs. 

As for world building, I mentioned above that d20 gives you lots of lists of challenge ratings (how hard is it to climb a wooden wall vs a stone one, or how hard is it to pick that lock vs the lock over there), and a lot of surface level dungeon/world dressing. But everything is centered around making some sort of skill roll, saving throw, ability check, or...yes...combat. There's not a lot of fodder for interesting world building and organic, dialogic play. 

AD&D's 1E DMG has tons of pages of charts, lists, and what not to give flavor to the world. It's got lists of gemstones and flowers and their folk belief uses. It's got that random harlot table. 

There are 9 and a half pages near the front of the 1E DMG giving advice on NPC hirelings, retainers, specialists, and so on. Way more detail than 3.0. And yes, much of this is also mechanical. Will your spy complete their mission? How long will it take the sage to research your questions? How will the dwarven mercenary crew react to your Elf trying to hire them? But it's also a lot of extra information on running these NPCs as well. 

Anyway, I'm out of time so I can't dig for more examples right now. But they're there. 

Yes, there are a lot of combat rules in AD&D. There are a lot in 3E. But in my opinion, AD&D gives richer information on all of these things. Sure, it lacks really detailed stronghold development rules. But BECMI has them, so it was never a problem for me. Maybe that's a cop out, but it's true that a lot of gamers I know mixed and matched what they liked from the TSR editions to fill the gaps.

Putting together a new Chanbara Campaign

This evening, I got out my Chanbara book (one of them, I have several proof copies) and flipped it open to page 41. That has the chart Well-Rounded Nobles, Daimyo, Abbots, Ministers, Clan Leaders, and other important NPCs. Yes, it's a long and convoluted, archaic name for a chart. But it's one of my favorite innovations I put into Chanbara.

I started listing possible types of organizational Lieges that characters might want (or that I'd want them to have in this campaign), and rolling dice on the chart to figure out what each organization's leaders want, what they need, and what they are trying to keep secret. I came up with 10 different organizations and their leaders on the fly.

And the dice made some interesting ideas spring forth. The very first one, the want and need have the same target, and the want makes sense considering the need. Other results later on refer back to this. And different results here and there are easily construed as entangling the various lieges. Other complications arise from outside factions not listed, which gives me ideas for factions that cannot serve as a Liege to the PCs. In other words, groups that the PCs can easily come together to fight against since it won't go against their Liege.

Now I'm thinking of a setting for this campaign. Probably a smallish island with several resources that different factions want, two or three small coastal towns, and several dungeons/ruins/mystical locations around the island that will serve as good places to adventure. The various conflicts within the notes derived from rolling dice on the table can easily play out in a small, confined setting like that.

Sorry for not posting any definite details, but some of my potential players for this game read my blog.

A few more thoughts on retainers

Some random additional thoughts on the subject of the previous post (using retainers to help cement the different play style of Classic/AD&D compared to newer editions).

• Make alignment matter. Retainers with the same alignment may have a morale boost. Chaotic retainers should be more likely to stab you in the back (figuratively or literally). Neutral aligned retainers may be the most in-demand.
• Not all retainers need to be NPCs with class and level. Some may be monsters. Monster retainers should definitely have the same alignment as the boss PC.
• Non-classed humans with interesting powers or abilities could come in handy. Gretta the Bag-Lady has a 20% chance to have any piece of normal gear in her bags (once per Turn), and a 5% chance once per day to have a potion or scroll useful for solving the current problem. But she's AC 9, HP 3, fights/saves as a Normal Man. Evelensk the Elf is merely level 1, but has learned EVERY language in his long life...but can only remember languages beyond what normal elves speak when he's drunk.
• Could an intelligent weapon be a retainer?

Thoughts on Retainers

I'm mulling over switching my 5E West Marches game to Classic D&D (or Labyrinth Lord...nearly the same thing). JB of BX Blackrazor had some good ideas about introducing BX (or your classic/retro-clone game of choice) to new gamers, including vets of newer editions who may be hesitant to switch to an old school edition.

Plus I've been leafing through my new print copy of Labyrinth Lord (the original rules, should get the new Advanced LL book that combines the basic rules and AEC content into one tome next).

I was looking at the chart of Charisma effects, and the number of retainers they have. I was thinking about JB's advice to start off players like mine at higher levels for a test run. I may do this. And if I do, each character will start with their maximum number of retainers based on their Charisma score.

WotC really doesn't seem to get the idea of retainers. Or they just don't like it. And lots of younger gamers don't seem to grasp the idea, or reject it for some reason. But retainers are a great addition to the game! Players control not just their character, but share control of some NPC helpers with the DM. Meat shields for magic-users, additional attacks and targets in combat, additional chances to pick the lock or cast that utility spell...

Due to my busy schedule in January and a trip back home in February, my West Marches game is on hold. When I get back to Busan at the end of February, I may just run a short campaign using Isle of Dread or another module I know I won't be borrowing from for the WM campaign for the group and see how it goes.

As JB suggests (and I've done before when starting with higher level PCs for short campaigns), I'll have a semi-randomized selection of magic items to choose from. I'll also come up with a bunch of retainers of various types (some with character classes, some without - but with useful skills/knowledge). Once the players roll their stats and select their classes, I'll let them select/distribute magic items, and then assign them their retainers (or let them negotiate over who gets which NPCs?).

The big challenge for me will be remembering to use the retainers' morale scores. Except for my son, whose 2nd character was the "knight" background and got three retainers, no one in the WM campaign has bothered trying to bring NPCs along, even when they see how useful it is for my son. One of the other kids tamed a giant badger who followed her PC for a long time, but then she got worried that it would die so now she leaves it in town. No one else has thought to go to the local inn and try to hire a few sellswords or sellspells. Maybe this would relieve them of that.

10 types of Men

A blog post title guaranteed to be misinterpreted.

I finished the first draft of the monster section's human NPC types yesterday, and there were ten different types.

Grad school is getting busy again, so I don't think I'll get to work on Chanbara for the next week or two.  We'll see.

Rolling Up Characters

I've got nothing to say about this week's OSR shield debate.  And I've had limited time for gaming stuff. 

Besides working on some edits of Flying Swordsmen (thanks, Matt and David!) and arranging for some art (thanks, Dylan!), I've been pouring over various Palladium books to try to figure out what sort of character I want to play.

Palladium's biggest problem as far as I'm concerned, is that everything DOES play well together (well, maybe except anything with megadamage).  Still, after going through most of Ninjas & Superspies, and returning to TMNT and Heroes Unlimited (still haven't cracked open Mystic China but I may be OK without it) I think I've figured out what I want to play out of the hundreds of options available.  I'm not sure when Alex is going to get his game prepped and ready to play, but I'm more or less ready to roll up my guy.

I'm also going to be rolling up some sample characters for Flying Swordsmen today and tomorrow.  I'll maybe do a few playtests with them, and I'll be using them both for examples in the rule book and as characters in the flavor text. 

So I've got character generation on the brain, not shields.

I never knew them in their prime

But I've gotten to know them in the past few years.

Here's my Megadungeon Level 3 NPC party, based on the stats given for the two Fighters in Moldvay Basic, then extrapolated for the party members mentioned in the examples of game play and combat later in the books.

Borg, Lawful Fighter 3
Str 17, Int 8, Wis 10, Dex 7, Con 15, Cha 6; AC 3/17, HP 18
Sword, 2 Daggers, Shortbow, Platemail, Shield, 20 arrows, 50' rope, backpack, 11 arrows +1, Potion of Clairvoyance
Personality: Plodding and rude

Morgan Ironwolf, Neutral Fighter 3
Str 16, Int 7, Wis 9, Dex 13, Con 14, Cha 8; AC 1/19, HP 26
Maul of Aias* (2-handed warhammer +1), Shortbow, 20 arrows, 6 silver arrows, 2 vials of holy water, Brynhild's Mail* (chainmail +3), Elven Boots
Personality: Seductive yet cutthroat

Silverleaf, Neutral Elf 3
Str 14, Int 14, Wis 11, Dex 9, Con 12, Cha 12; AC 2/18, HP 15
Spells: Sleep, Hold Portal, Mirror Image
Herculean Club* (club +2), Sling, 30 stones, 6 sling stones of dispelling, Platemail, Shield, Potion of Flying
Personality: Picky but courageous

Fredrik, Lawful Dwarf 3
Str 15, Int 9, Wis 8, Dex 12, Con 12, Cha 10; AC 2/18, HP 15
Chain Whip* (flail +1), 3 Hand Axes, Potion of Giant Strength, Platemail, Shield, 1 sprig Wolvesbane, 4 flasks of oil
Personality: Efficient and remorseless

Sister Rebecca, Lawful Cleric 3
Str 13, Int 6, Wis 16, Dex 15, Con 15, Cha 14; AC 1/19, HP 16
Spells: Cure Light Wounds, Protection from Evil
Mace, Sling, 30 stones, Holy Symbol, Platemail, Shield, 2 vials of Holy Water, Potion of Growth, Scroll: Cure Light Wounds
Personality: Friendly and devout

Black Dougal, Chaotic Thief 3
Str 11, Int 11, Wis 10, Dex 14, Con 10, Cha 8; AC 6/14, HP 11
The Golden Bow* (Longbow +1, Translating), 40 arrows, Sword, Thieves' Tools, Leather Armor, Potion of Treasure Finding, Mirror
Personality: Brash and sly


*all magical weapons and armor are from my Unique Magic Items documents, downloadable over there on the right sidebar.

The bandwagon still has room for one more hireling

So today's topic around the OSR-type blogs is hirelings/retainers/henchmen.

I'm pretty sure I've blogged in the past about my own early experiences with them, but I'm too lazy to look up a link to that old post right now.  So I'll briefly recap.

Starting with Mentzer, his Basic set tried to discourage retainers.  I'll need to double check the actual books, but the way I read them was very similar to the excerpts of Moldvay Basic that James M., Lord Kilgore, and others are talking about.  PCs can hire help, but they're discouraged from doing so at early stages of the game.

My idea of the 'retainer' that I got from Mentzer, though, was that they were free-lance classed NPCs who would hire on with your group for a share of the treasure.  Sorta like henchmen in AD&D, only contracted on an adventure by adventure basis.  We never got the idea from Frank's set that hiring Normal Man type soldiers/men-at-arms, or other porter/linkboy types was even an option.  Frank's Expert set reinforced this, with the admonition that mercenaries would guard your castle or clear the land of monsters, but wouldn't go down in a dungeon.

Since Frank had stated that it was preferable to have players each play multiple characters rather than resort to hiring retainers, and since we would often just roll up new characters when we were bored (to put off doing homework for another few minutes), we all had a dozen or so characters at any one time, and our adventuring parties usually consisted of each of our 1-3 players playing 3-5 of their characters, plus the DM 'NPCing' some of their own as well.  So we didn't need to hire extra help most of the time.

But that's what comes of playing D&D in a tiny farm community with a very limited player pool.

More recently, I've been encouraging the hiring of NPC help.  Some of my players take to it, some don't.  That's up to them.  I find that having a few hired spearmen along on a dungeon delve, or some extra sacks and backpacks for hauling out loot (or hauling in more oil, holy water, rations, etc.) can help a lot.  But if a group wants to go without them, OK by me.

So what have I got to add to the discussion?  Not much really.  But it was easier posting this than writing up the post that's on my mind, which is all about literary critique theory and how that may possibly be messing up some people's ideas of what RPGs should be about.  I'll save that one until I get over the headache I've got today.

Some Old Friends (NPC Party)

My 2nd Level NPC party was an easy one to come up with, because Frank Mentzer did all the work.

If you've got the Mentzer Basic Players Book, you've got these guys.  I just took the nameless Fighter from the tutorial and the pre-rolled characters from the center of the book (p. 34), and the names provided in the section on level titles for each class.  Because they're all using the 2nd level titles, I bumped the pre-gen stats up to level 2.  Voila.

Other than giving everyone an extra hit die, and spells for Clarion the Adept, Felonious the Seer, and Belrain the Warrior-Seer, it's all the same as what's in the book.  Also, unlike with the Level 1 roster, where I plan to just pick 4-6 of the guys on the list at any time, these seven would always be encountered together.

Clarion the Adept, Lawful Cleric 2
Str 9, Int 11, Wis 17, Dex 8, Con 14, Cha 16; AC 5/15, HP 13
Spells: Cure Light Wounds
Mace, Chainmail, Shield, Sling, 30 bullets, Holy Symbol
Personality: Steadfast and compassionate

Fleetwood the Warrior, Neutral Fighter 2
Str 17, Int 9, Wis 8, Dex 11, Con 16, Cha 14; AC 2/18, HP 18
Sword, Dagger, Platemail, Shield, 1 vial Holy Water, 1 Potion of Healing
Personality: Brave but naive

Felonious the Seer, Lawful Magic-User 2
Str 8, Int 17, Wis 11, Dex 16, Con 14, Cha 9; AC 7/13, HP 9
Spells: Shield, Sleep
Silver Dagger, Wand of Trap Detection (10 charges), Spellbook, 1 vial Holy Water
Personality: Instructive and humorous

Greegan the Footpad, Chaotic Thief 2
Str 16, Int 14, Wis 9, Dex 17, Con 11, Cha 8; AC 5/15, HP 8
Sword, Dagger, Leather Armor, Thieves Tools, Wolvesbane
Personality: Greedy but fair

Rolf the Dwarven Warrior, Lawful Dwarf 2
Str 16, Int 7, Wis 11, Dex 14, Con 9, Cha 9; AC 1/19, HP 14
Sword, Dagger, Platemail, Shield, Hammer, Spikes, Wolvesbane
Personality: Honest but foolish

Belrain the Warrior-Seer, Neutral Elf 2
Str 16, Int 9, Wis 7, Dex 14, Con 9, Cha 11; AC 3/17, HP 11
Spells: Charm Person, Hold Portal
Sword, Longbow, 20 arrows, Chainmail, Shield, Spellbook, Wolvesbane
Personality: Flamboyant but absent-minded

Touchberry the Halfling Warrior, Lawful Halfling 2
Str 16, Int 11, Wis 14, Dex 9, Con 9, Cha 7; AC 4/16 (2/18), HP 11
Short Sword, Short Bow, 20 arrows, 5 Silver Arrows
Personality: Cautious and moody

Have we met before? (NPC Party)

For my megadungeon project, I've already made a few rosters of NPC adventuring parties that could be encountered within.  This is the lowest level roster, made up of the 3E Iconic characters converted to Classic D&D (with my homebrew classes for a few of them*).  I kept the ability scores at the 'default array' for 3E D&D, 15-14-13-12-10-8 which means that in Classic D&D terms, none of them have any ability bonuses above a +1, but I like that.

Anyway, here they are:

Jozan, Lawful Cleric 1
Str 12, Int 10, Wis 15, Dex 8, Con 14, Cha 13; AC 4/16, HP 7
Mace, Banded Mail, Shield, Holy Symbol, 2 vials of Holy Water
Personality: Sanctimonious but kind

Tordek, Lawful Dwarf 1
Str 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Dex 12, Con 15, Cha 8; AC 3/17, HP9
Battle Axe, Plate Mail
Personality: Impatient and covetous

Mialee, Neutral Magic-User 1
Str 8, Int 15, Wis 12, Dex 13, Con 14, Cha 10; AC 8/12, HP 5
Spells: Sleep
Dagger, Scrolls (Charm Person, Ventriloquism)
Personality: Haughty and distant

Kerwyn, Neutral Thief 1
Str 14, Int 12, Wis 8, Dex 15, Con 13, Cha 10; AC 6/14, HP 5
Short Sword, Leather Armor, Thieves Tools
Personality: Outgoing and reckless

Regdar, Neutral Fighter 1
Str 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Dex 13, Con 14, Cha 8; AC 3/17, HP 9
Two-handed Sword, Banded Mail, Light Crossbow, 30 bolts
Personality: Brooding and quiet

Lidda, Chaotic Halfling 1
Str 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Dex 15, Con 13, Cha 8; AC 3/17, HP 7
Short Sword, Chainmail, Shield
Personality: Brash yet soft-hearted

Krusk, Chaotic Ranger 1
Str 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Dex 14, Con 13, Cha 8; AC 6/14, HP 9
Polearm, Leather Armor, Long Bow, 20 arrows
Personality: Rude and slovenly

Devis, Neutral Bard 1
Str 10, Int 14, Wis 8, Dex 13, Con 12, Cha 15; AC 5/15, HP6
Spells: Charm Person
Spear, Leather Armor, Shield, 3 Javelins
Personality: Friendly and trustworthy

Vadania, Neutral Druid 1
Str 10, Int 12, Wis 15, Dex 14, Con 13, Cha 8; AC 5/15, HP 7
Spells: Cure Light Wounds
Staff, Leather Armor, Shield, Sling, 30 stones
Personality: Aloof and suspicious

Soveliss, Lawful Elf 1
Str 14, Int 13, Wis 8, Dex 15, Con 12, Cha 10; AC 3/17, HP 6
Spells: Light
Sword, Chainmail, Shield, Short Bow, 20 arrows
Personality: Jocular but unforgiving

Alhandra, Lawful Cavalier 1
Str 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Dex 8, Con 12, Cha 15; AC 4/16, HP 8
Sword, Banded Mail, Shield, Holy Symbol
Personality: Uptight yet generous

Hennet, Chaotic Magic-User 1
Str 10, Int 15, Wis 8, Dex 14, Con 13, Cha 12; AC 8/12, HP 5
Spells: Magic Missile
Staff, Silver Dagger, Scroll (Protection from Evil)
Personality: Egotistical and lustful

*for those not using similar home brewed classes, Druid=Cleric, Ranger and Cavalier=Fighter, Bard=Elf