Transcript
Conference call with military analysts
Thursday, June 1,2006
Siihicwf Hamha
Transcriber: Murphy
ON BACKGROUND
Jones' Again, thanks for joining us this afternoon. This is obviously a hot topic and an important
one and we appreciateyou taking time out.
This call is on background, soas always, we ask that you only quote senior DoD officials with the
informationthat you receive on this call. So with that, I am going to go ahead and hand It over to
the general and the colonel, so they will make brief opening remarks and then we're, you know,
free to take questions.
Gents, thank you again.- here. Again, I am the deputy director of public affairs
for the Marine Cores. We do aooreciatevou taklna the time. Hooefullv we can Give vou some
informationthat wlil be of use to you. as iam sureyou are being pressed -maybe not as much
as we have- but certainly enough to comment on this situation.
As yo^ all recognize we are in a pretty tenuous s tuation here with an ongoing investigation
whicn constra ns LS from what we are able to say We are cenalmy h e l m DY tnose ofyou wno
have an understanding of me system and aren't on active duty You nave a llttte DM more freedom
to la k about things so we're hoping that we can give you nformmn that s usefu in allowing you
to oo those In ngs when you are asked to comment
Iguess, just as a -I'lldo a quick background on the situationjust in case anybody isn't
comolew un to soeed. Incidentsof 19 November 2005 In HadUna in western IraGAl the time it
w a s ~ w oMarine ExpeditionaryForce which had command of that area of operations in Anbar
Province. The third battalion, 1" ~arines,which is normally part of the First Marine Division, was
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attached to 2 MEF for tnose operations Tnree one, 111 use the shonnano is oack in the J S
now has reoepbyea to the1 home base at Camp Penaleton If there is from the nvesngadons
mat are ongoing any type of b l o w up legal action it s likely to be nandled a( Camp Penaleton
because again that's wnere the unit that s invoved is based current y
As yo^ may a I may know alreaay Time Magaz ne is the ones who k nd of brougnl this to the
in llbry ttlat!4nried at [Irst an nit al inquiry by Muhi-National Corps - Iraq They found enough
there to convene a second AR15-6 invest gation whicn 1s headed by Major General (E oon)
Bargewell which is ongoing at this paint And Major General (Richard C ) Zllmer who is the
current commander of Mult -National Force- West convened a - Naval Criminal Investigative
Service investigation So those are the two ongoing investigations - the ARlS-6 and the NCIS
investigation
I am sure you have been asked, as we have, about when those are going to wrap up. We don't
know. It is certainly not expected to be imminent despite reports that you see. Again, can't put a
time frame on it and can probablytalk more about why It's so difficult to kind
of nail down how long investigationstake and he'll talk process stuff.
So hopefullythat brings you all up to speed If I have repeated or said anythingthat you are
already aware of Iapologize, but Ijust wanted to make sure we are starting on a level Playing
field I'll elt- now talk about some of the legal issues associatedwith Where
we are today
One of the reasons we took this opportunity to talk with you gentlemen Is toreiterate some things
which 1 think you all probably know, but to make the points concerningwhat it is we can and
cannot say at this time as these investigations are being completed.
First of a i with the pend ng investigabon -the o d statement that yot don't know wnat yd, don't
know The investigators are O L ~there gean ng facts each and every day, an0 you aon Ik n w
what they nave tncovereo each and every day. so wnatever you say could probably oe wrong
abott the Invesugator or The status of tne investigation and yod oont want to interfere wnh tner
processes
But the other thing that reallv constrains us that I was asked to discuss is. you know. the topic of
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unlawful command influence. Most of you are aware of it. Most of you especiallyGeneral
Scales and General Shepped have probably had SJAs tell you about this in the past But It
becomes crdcal now for us to make s-im that we do not do anything or say anything thaiwll
pre,~oiceo n aMny to b n g whatever cnarges or whatever wrongdoing is uncoveredin tne
invesbgationc 10 the proper level or the proper forum for accotnlabi ity
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We have to and that puts us in the bad position. If you will, with the media of not being able to
I I them all that they want to know or confirm items that they find from other sources that they
wanted to talk about that perhaps In other settings local district attorneyswould be more than
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happy to talk about but their system doesn't have the same features that ours does.
So wanteu to stress the topic of unlawfLlcommand infltence an0 wny tnere is htstrabon - there
is frustrationon our part as to what we can and cannot talk about
So I will leave it at that and I d s see if you gentlemen have questions and Hems that we could
address for you.
Q Yeah tha is BOD Scales real q u i n i - this is a Iiue sKort.luseo OJI -
I am supposed to 1 have
written an essay if you will on the subled. which i am s t p p e o to talk abobt an0 recom this
afternoon i wonder rf i might just send it to yo4 jtst for a truth check, if thars okay
here. My email address- and all of you feel free to email me if you
at USMC dot mil.
Q: Well thank youvery much. Iappreciate it.
Q Don Shepwrd Process question here. The AR'15-6 and the naval criminal investigationare
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two sepaiate invest@ ons What happens to tne AR15-6 raport d it goes to wnen bm facts are
found wno noes n go to? Ana wno decides whether or not to prefer charges7And s tnai s that -
o mI f à or not indemdont nf the NCIS? In other words if tnev oecioeo not to
have to prefer charges. The AR15-6 is an administrativeinvestigation that is lookingthe two
topics that y ( ~nave
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heard about before the training and the reporting (report71 Those are tne
two items tney are iookng at That is an administrative nvestigation, an0 they w 4 ProdJce their
fndings and mat is going w General Chiarell n Iraq and Casey- General Casey had n m 00 tnat
And I think the flow will be Chiareliito Casey to us- to the Marine component, and perhaps, back
through Abizaid as wen. Up and down the chain of command.
NCIS investigationwas convened by General Ziimer, the Multi-NationalForce-West commander,
but he is in the operational chain of command as well. We expect that investigationto flow up the
same chain of command. We expect those cases, those findings, to come back to the Marine
Corps, to the Marine Component at least, which is Marine Forces Central Command, for us to
take action.
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Thafs how the processing of those investigations should follow. There will be there could be the
preferal (sp) of charges by the Marine Corps based upon the 158, but if they find some other
criminalconduct we could go back to NCIS and say investigatefurther on another avenue of
inquiry.
Q So Mar ne Corps Cenlra Command will oe the one to oecde after it goes through the cha n of
command ana the recommendations decide wnether to prefer charges s what hear you saying?
11 think that's what the process worked out by the commanders has been. It's an
operationalchain of command issue and that's how I believe it's going to work out.
Q: What's the name that goes with that?
Sattter. You ail know John (LtGen John Sattler), right?
Q. Yes. Absolutely.
11 think John is the one on this situation who has been tagged, with the concurrence
of General Abiiaid and others, that that's how it's going to work.
Q: This is Jeff McCausland I understand that - If I have got this- that the 1 5 4 with the training
and (inaudible) reporting.Can you comment at all on -apparently there have been repork that
the battalion commander was relieved. Can you comment on that? And can you also comment as
far as the Navy criminal Investigationjust in terms of how many Marines are at least subjectto the
investigation,or does that go too far?
-well. on the commander of the battalion- 3" battalion, 1" Marines, was relieved by
the cornmandina aeneral of 1" Marine Division And it was done for the tradiilonal stated reason
of loss of confidence. I cannot tell you, and the commander does not have to explain to us, if
there was something more- (were they Involved?) the event that's the subject of ail the media
attention now, or whether there are other actions?You knew, there couid have been failures of
inspections There could have been a higher disciplinary rate than other commands. 1don't know
other than the commander of the I* Marine Division lost confidence in the ability of that lieutenant
colonel to command that battalion. And I think that's what we have reportedbefore.
Now the second questionabout-
Q How many Marines, at least in raw numbers, are the subject of the Navy criminal
investigation?
Now, I don't - 1 don't think Iknow an exact number so I hesitateto give you a
number.
Q: Okay.
%,
In lvl ua
They are talking to a number of people. They have been interviewing any number of
and some of those individuals they may interview you for one purpose, but then find
OJI tnat pernaps mere s some otner reason tney naa to talk w in mem fanner. or they m gnt have
done sometn ng e se wrong tnat may nave nothing to do w.lh th s So I wo, a oe very hestant to
thrort OJI a n m o e r becadse am prerty confident I would be wrong
And just to jump on again, on the first part of thequestion, the battalion commander of 3-1
was relieved as were two of the comoanv commanders within that omanization as well. And as
the general said, the relief was done by the commanding general of the ls'Manne Division
because the unit was back at Camp Pendleton at that time and so 3-1 fell under the 1 Marine
Division because they were back. in the States, and they weren't forward when these reliefs took
place
And to re nforce that tne genera did that General h a t o n s ~an0
i tnat s oeen reported
oefore ne codid have fg-red 0-1 s t d l or seen stuff won me f return from iraq tnat was eno-gh
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for n m to aec da to re eve n m and I have VOL <now I would not le VOJ an0 I 00 not Know h s
mental calculations he went through before he did that'
It could have been any number of events that led him to that conclusion, and I don't think it Is
centered on this investigation because this investigation- or the investigations relating to
(Haditha?) have not been completed yet
Q: Gents, Jed Babbin Two questions Number one, can you tell us if K31 (sp] was brought back
early because of the suspicion of these events and number two. can you also tell us going back
to the command influence point, how strongly you guys have been counseling both the military
and civilian leadership to basically clam up so we don't screw up the prosecut~on?
I n e r e On me first part no 3-1 rotated back on tneir norma ScneaL e they
were not oro.gni oacfi ear,/ An asiae to that the other incdent tnat nas been recentiy a scdsed
I s 3'Â Dana on 5'' Mar nes That mil st# is in mi-nlm m a members of mat -nil nave oeen
returned to the United States pending the investigation into those allegations
So in the case of 3-1 the Haditha incident they were not brought back to the States early. But 3"
battalion, 5" Marine,separate incident- ~amandiyah-1hat)ust happened more recently, some
of those individuals have been returned to the States early pending the investigation.
On the unlawful command influence issue, what we have done 1s you have probably
all seen the press release done by the commandant. That includes -you know, that was carefully
crafted by us, if you read those words, and I know General (inaudible, sounds like reid?) has read
those words carefullv, to take it above, and keeo it above anv claim where we are twlna to
influence the courseof the invest~~atiin, or influence the discretion that subordinatecohmanders
I ! have to exercise in the course of any investigation, any court martial that may or may not
result, or any administrative action.
As yo,i a <no* mere are a varety of people who *
now have fo es 10 pay from memoers of
co-n mana s fddges a*yeis wno make decisons as to wnat the cnarges shoo. d or sno- a not
oe ana we conven ng a m o r t es
We could have people who get charged for some not obvious offense by some other subordinate
commander that we can't predict today So we are trying to put out the word to the Marine Corps,
t n r o ~ g nme commanoants woros an0 otner thmgs l do info-gh the SJA cnanne s 10 maKe s-re
everyomy keeps t at tne r gnt level so we relam our abi1.Q to Jse the m tary .slice system for
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me pxpose for w n m it was ntenaed to pro" de good oraer and 0 scmi ne for me force and 10
nold peope acco-nrao e m e n necessary So mats what were work ng on &a
Q: That's great. Hey, appreciatethat. One quick follow up. Have the Iraqis squawked at all about
bringing any of these guys back, early or late?
-This s-i I have no idea. Ihaven't heard.
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Q On tnat, two quick fol owups One is for those who have not at least Ihaven t seen th s
press reease oy me commandant, Tara, could you possibly nave that seni OJIto JS' Tnat'd be
great.
Jones: Yeah, absolutely.
I can get it to you. And I will also- well, Iwill get it to Tara and let her pass it to you The
other thing too s tnose of you who read Tom Ricks's story th s morning pmbao y saw reference
to some other guoance we put 01,i on 1n.s very subject again to make s ~ r that e anybody who-
anybooy out tnere wno was being approached on me I S S J ~of Haanha anew *here the o~l-ot-
bounds Ines were and why l can get you some of that guidance as we1
Q: That'd be great. (inaudible) couple of Nspots. Second question is, what Jed just said. The
Iraqis have announcedthat they are going to do their own investigation, and maybe it's too soon
to comment on that. But will there be any coordination between what we're doing, NCIS in
particular, with the Iraqis, or do you guys see that as being totally out of bounds?
Don? know at this po nt We have not neard anything along tnose ines OWIOJSIY we
have seen the commentscoming out of me iraqi government, but rt hasn't translatedinto any
action at OLF point at Ins unctire
Q: This is Bob Maginnis Question on press release that came out earlier today, I think out of Iraq,
out of the Corps. Is this bang typified as a training stand down? Or, I saw the commandant's
message a couok days ago. What exactly is he doing in country? What are the messages he's
sending? Can you go over that again, just for clarification?
Sire Two separate things, ooviously The commandant nad a tr p prevo-s y scheduled n
whicn he was Qo.ngto De visa ng Iraq It was not a trip that was put togetner for In s PJrpose. but
since ne was go ng. he wanted to tali<to his Marines
The things that he talked to the Marines about were the importance of our core (Corps?) values -
honor, courage and commitment, talking about doing the right thing. Also, making the point that
the vast majority of Marines are doing the right thing -day in, day out. under very challenging
circumstancesboth In combat and out of combat.
Wanted to get the message to them mat even thougn mere has been a lot of ailent on paid to tnls
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inc oem and tnese a legations that ne be ieves that most Mannes that tms is an aoerratlon mat
most Marines are oona the nant tn no He wanted to re nforce that But he also wameo to ta k
a b i t t n e Importance of 00 n i t h e right thing, of naving moral w ~ r a g eof
, adnering to OJr core
(Corps?) valdes aga n Those are some of the things that he wanted to la k aboit It was not
ntenaedto be a train no in the way that this MNC.1 announcement came oot. done separately by
General Chiarelli for whatever reasons
I oon't have any inoicatons nere that there would be any k nd of tea ning stano down Obvious y
those guys across the oatuefield are busy, and they can't afford to have everybody stop what they
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are domo b-t I thin6 an0 aaain I am ta kinn a little bn odt of schoo owcause its an MNC-1 ssue.
but Idon't get the sense it's stand down & much as making sure that commanders are
reinforcingthose training aspects on some type of schedule.
Q: As a follow up. perhaps Tara or someone in OSD can clarify whether the Corps has put Out
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something that is In fact 1 am hearing through other people is being interpreted as a training
stand down, and that's why I wanted someclarification.
A fo ow -p OJCSI on aoo-1 th s panici-lar battalion 3 1 Wasn Ithis theif t n m lo-, an0 were Ine
peope we are la King BOO-I tnat are oe ng nvesugated were tney on lneir in ro toLr w In tnls
Dana on7
he battalion itself, it was their third time back, but remember, the people in the battalion
change out all the time. so it's not as if the entirety of the battalion was there for the third time,
you would have variations throughout the ranks. In fact, I am sure they had people that were on
their first tour at this time
he.semnd
... .-
k n o 10
1 of
0 x. -.----
. the owstion was - - the- indniduals
- - o-h whether - that were lnvobed - don't
~ tnat eve1 of oeta n terms of if n was th s person's first t me or miro lime Aga n as
a o i s a preity w de net NO be tough to aecide nno t was mat s
cons dered yor <now pan of me invest gat on
Q'Thank you
Q Don Snepparo got n 1wtn a q,.est,on on radio the omef aay a m t t - Iha0 oeen reponea
tnat 52 500 payments were made oy me Marine Corps 10 some of tne fam es ndo we0 an0 1
ABS not tne normal po cy to pay reparations tn me he o
I am not sure this is your area, but do you know anything about that7
Well I think, one thing is that we call it salaha payments and they're done a lot in
Iraq They are oone in otner pans of me wor o as *ell Ana wnat tney are s - and they range
from things 1 <e wnen we nave a~tomooleaccaents wnen we aamage property thro-gn erne1
operat onal oamage or tnro-gn other aamage you know. our b Q if-cits rLn nto O J oings on a
reg- ar oas s or run No raq cars and we offer them compensat on tor me damage Inat they
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i-Kereo And n in s case there was some salatia oavments oone to tne fam .es or Dad 10 me
families and I would not classify it as being unusual '
The other important aspect is that salatia payments are not an admission of guilt, either.
Again, they are a way to recompense individuals, families, whatever, for damages of one type or
another. Again I know- in fact, to take it to the lowest level, when I was in Haiti two and a half
years ago, we were paying people for breaking locks off their doors when we doing searches. I
mean, it goes from the very small level to the very large level.
Q This is Jeff McCausiand again Can you guys comment at all about this one young Marine, I
think he is still on active dutv out in California, a ~ ~ a r e n the
l v has released a bunch of
photographs His mother has been on N.He ciiirns he'was part of the quote unquote clean-up
crew, but also has gone on to make allegations about the fact that -or his mother has at least -
that the Marine Corps has not addressed this kid's PTSD and all the problems associated with
this Haditha thing. Have you got any comment on that as well?
The Marine in question did do an interview with the Los Angeles Times. He has since
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stopped doing interviews,from what I understand, of his own volition nobody told him -again,
as far as i understand nobody told him not to. But his mother is carrying the case. She has done
a number of mtewiews. Again, her focus has been more on the PTSD issue and she has talked
somewhat about what her son told her he saw and experienced
I ~ e ' also sbeen accused of a variety of crimes in the local community there, which is
reported in that article from the LATImes. I don't think we've seen anything officialor unofficial
about his claims of PTSD and whether he's being treated and stuff in (and?) that. We have not
exploredthat yet.
Q Boo Magsnns again T i e LA Times tooay, a town awoKe to slaughter Very detailed Were
these two reporterson the ground, or are they basing what they are saying in here on second and
tertiary sources?
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Weii the and I am just going off memory from reading the story this morning because i
think that it mentioned that they wouldn't reveal the name of the reporterfor security reasons, one
who may have gone into Hadlthato conduct the interviews, but also believe that they conducted
intervieis with individuals,so various levels of sourcing in terms of people who may have seen
what nappnec may have been inwived or may nagheard from others -so tcouh nave been
m o n o or tnira-hand information i oidn t get the ino cat on mat the reporterswere mere wnen
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any of i n s nappered. biit tnen went oacK afterwards to talk to the townspeople Does tnat does
that help at all?
Q. Yeah, it is littered with quotes that are very incendiary,so I am just curious as to the sourcing,
so if that's what you have, that's what you have.
Q Jea Baoom aga n, g q s in terms of the Congress we're hear ng that Senator Warner might
want to have nearfngsor something. i mean, what requrements or what requestsare these
- , , , the congressionalpi&, luu. -, dm sure you am a,.a,-, ,,.-
commandant did go over to the Hill, again not on specific request, but in order to keep the
leadershipapprised of what was going on in these cases and his legislativedirector followed him
and did some briefingas well.
Q The nature of the enemy that was being fought on November the 19"' in Haditha,were they
charactenzed in the immediate after action as just Sunni insurgents, or were there evidence of
foreign jhadists that were embedded and perhaps were even using children, women as shields?
=Don Imow me answer lo trial one That may oe someming that comes 0.1 n me co-rse
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of me nvestgation b n do not mow was Inere at the time in terms of n raq we felt In OLr
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nteiltgence yod know vef f ed tnat the toregn fignter nfldence InflJence I snob d lne -
numbers
-- - of.foreon - - - - in imestern
- - * foniers -- orettv
-- was
---- raa --,
7
small
- - Onifious
- ~,v the#, had a b a nl uence
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But most of the guys we were fighting in western Iraq were local Sunni insurgents
Q Okay
Jones All right gentlemen, any other questions?
Q: Yeah, Ijust sent that email to you David. Could you just read that over and make sure it's
okay?
WIII do, s~r.
Q Tara, are you going to follow up with the Corps to find out rf they sent out something on a
training stand down, because I am confused by what is on the web page.
Jones Yeah, no, we'll get that to you.
I don't think they have used the term stand down I am looking at the press
release, and they just talked about a training, commander direct training.
Q They even said one report I got (inaudible- that it?) would be conducted over the next 30
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days
Voice (7)' Right, that's what it says in here
Q Tara, anything you can get on that. I've got to go on two Nprograms here, that would be
great, as well as that press release by the commandant of the Manne Corps.
Jones. Sure
k An0 aga n .us1 one last point I d line to make an0 tn nk-
w prooaoly-mp on As yo, can #magne *e have receives a 01 of req-ests from
mea a to get tne commandant out mere 10 tak to do mlerviews to nave mea a tag a ong as ne
o -m- s.an0
. - ta
. ..Mar
.in
ià .. ("ihvmi
.net, .. .. ., tor<
4; ...of .. .. .with
. roncernti . that
. - on
- . n..mDer of eveis not me
a
least of *n cn s. aga n perceptionsof uniawf~commana mf beme So we are geh ng a 01 of
oress.re 0 4 me commanaants la us to n s Marines are ntenaea to De Inat for mm to la k 10 his
Marines
Agam, we do not want to put the commandant in a position based on, you know, the media's
desire to get him to talk that's going to pollute the system. So, while he is obviously concerned,
he has serious concerns with these allegations, he is not in a position to address them while there
are ongoing investigations,Sir^
1- would just reinforce, you know, the statement that he has made on Marine virtue is
the kind of statement that vou would exoect the senior Marine, our leader, to talk about with
Marines when there's investigationspending, to talk about how we expect each of us to behave,
and at what level to behave, and how we can comport ourselves to comply with our honor,
courage and commitment. And that's the kind of things he needs to go out and reinforce.
Talking to specifics to all of the Marines in the Marine Corps doesn't do any good That's not what
he needs to reinforce He needs to reinforce the basic virtue. So that's what he is going when he
goes out; he is talking to his Marines about how we expect Marines to behave, whether it Is on
liberty, on duty, on the battlefield or off the battlefield
Q'Could you say again the exact title of AR15-6 investigation,what do you call it in the Marine
Corps?
Well. in the Marine Corps terms we'd call it like a JAG manual investigation.And that
the 15-6 again is- the Army guys can tell you this- isAR15-6 that refers to the regulationthat
guides it. It's an administrative investigationthat commanders can use for a variety of reasons -
to find out why their supply system is losing gear, to find out why people are getting in trouble in
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town they can use it for any number of reasons. In this case it's to look at why the reporting was
not accurate, and also was the level of training of the Marines involved prior to the event
sufficient? And those are characterizedas administrative investigations And then if they find the
criminal investigation- criminal matters that they think exists, then they can turn it over to NCIS,
or the commander can take some administrativeand disciplinary action based up on that
investigation
t c C a ~ san0 again Sad y. I oon t I n nk m s .s o n to o m a an lime soon --
Q Tn s s ~ e t M
Sure nope to Goo t o m s -.out n m ght be ~ s e f - i -$na f bo-1can have
Tara sen0 US some contact d o n aoo lion t o a m a I address ana {OJa I s offices n case
we need 10 made a qi. c" cnect on tne legal sioe or on me PJOI
c affa rs s oe as in s iring goes on
for however long it goes on
Jones Yeah, I am happy to do that All right gentlemen, thanks again for joining us, and 1 will
send - and I will be sending out stuff this afternoon Keep us posted for media that you do on this.
Q. Yeah, I'll be on O'Reilly tonight Tara.
Q: CNN in the morning, Tara.
Jones Okay, great
Q. Thanks very much guys
Jones: Let us know if we can do anything else for you.
Q" Bye.
