Gertie's Reviews > Lord Foul's Bane

That's the point of the book, the fact that the main character is so grotesquely unlikable is what truly sets this series apart, and it even makes it even more believable with his human flaws.

Yeah- I didn't think it was unintentional; it just made the book unenjoyable for me. (You know how it goes... what one person wants from a book isn't necessarily what someone else would want.) I just prefer likable characters; although I sometimes enjoy books without them, it didn't happen in this case. :(

It's been a long time though, and my tastes have changed a bit over the years, so this might be one I end up trying again. I see it sitting on the bookshelf and staring at me every time I'm at Half Price Books. :-P

Yeah, its not exactly enjoyable, but maybe more meaningful. That's good that you might try it again, if you do i hope you get something good out of it!

Thomas Covenant is a character you love to hate. I have reread it more times than I can count. Just take it with a grain of salt. =) hehehe

I got through them all (well the first trilogy) because a couple of friends and I were all reading them. I remember feeling "trapped" in these books. I see others who liked them...I'm not one. I agree with you on this one. Covenant was a character who (due to his fear of beliving of course) believed everything was about him (it's a dream after all, right?) I have gone so far as to not only refuse to read the rest of the Covenant books, I avoid Donaldson all together. Another friend who owns a book store recommended The Mirror of Her Dreams and as soon as the main character started with "woe is me life is ****" I put the book down and never went back. So, congratulations on you escape.

Yes, Covenant is despicable, there is no refuting the fact of it. But imagine yourself in his shoes. If your family deserted you, all your friends outcast you, everything you ever cared about abandoned you and left you in darkness...for you to rot away in agony, all alone with your only reason for survival being survival, wouldn't it hurt? Very few would be able to bear it. I don't condone his crime against Lena, but I also believe that he is justified to be angry with the world. From the bottom of my heart, I feel pity for Covenant, and it causes me to question the people that I have rejected or talked poorly about before. Maybe they are hurt and alone, and they just need someone to help them bear the burden. I agree, however, Covenant's crime against Lena does make Covenant seem horrible, even if he doesn't believe in the Land.

I will be the first to admit that the trials in my life don't include leprosy and I haven't been shifted to an alternate universe. I suppose you could be right about personal insight and empathy for others. My main negative reaction to this series (and for that matter another book by Donaldson I started) was that life can be at times struggle enough. I didn't need nor did I want to live Covenant's. He defiantly suffered, but he never suffered in silence, not even close. I just took all i could of him, and when I got to the rape it was touch and go whether I'd finish the book.

So a lot of it is personal. I won't belabor here what I had gone through in life (though Covenant would) but I just didn't need to spend my leisure money nor my leisure time in this misery fest, especially after I finished the first series. I started the second series and got into the "now the LAND" is sick and "oh woe is me, life is crap and then you die" (forgive my use of the mild vulgarity) and I just didn't want to go through it again.

I had a friend at that time (I haven't seen him in years now) who also loved the books, read the next series etc. so as I said, I assume a lot of this is personal. Please don't take my rating as criticizing those who do enjoy these books. I simply rated it based on my experience and memory of these books, and it is pretty much universally negative.

Don't get me wrong, I hated Covenant, but I can understand why he is the way he is. He has a right to be angry with the world. In the "real" world, he was at the point of desperation for someone to help him bear the burden, but he only got slapped in the face--especially in the next two books of the series. He is pushed right into the depths of despair, and contemplates suicide several times. We have all felt helpless at one point or another in our lives, just like Covenant. The only difference is that we had other people to support us, where Covenant was alone to bear his agony. The book mainly intrigued me because it makes me think. I like books that cause me to think about the bigger picture; it had an emotional impact on me, and it put into perspective a point of view of a social outcast. Donaldson doesn't write books that are hearts and roses, or books that make you feel happy; he writes books that explain the deepest levels of human suffering, so I wouldn't recommend it for a lot of people that read for pleasure instead of challenge.

You know, part of me is struggling with an attitude at your response, but I know you aren't trying to be condescending. Implying that those who don't enjoy a book that is full of misery and angst because they don't "like a challenge" approaches that. I pay good money for the books I read and believe it or not I don't care to pay for extra misery. It doesn't mean we are "un-empathetic" nor does it mean we don't read thought provoking books. It means that I don't need to spend the amount of leisure time it takes to read six 800 page books to gain that understanding.

You love these books. That is great and I'm happy for you. I have other friends who love these books, I'm happy for them. Read them...enjoy them...find everything Donaldson has written and get those. But please don't imply those who don't find these books worth their time are somehow deficient in understanding or depth. I "feel" for the character and his plight, it's awful. By the same token every Leper doesn't become a nihilistic rapist. Okay, maybe the book speaks to you. To others it's tripe. Look at the people who read Ayn Rand. Some find her a revelation others find her unreadable. I admire Fyodor Dostoyevsky and think (for example) the story in the Idiot is brilliant. But I didn't enjoy the book. I don't "like" most Russian Lit. in that there is a lot of angst in it. That doesn't imply any deficiency in the works or the reader, it is taste. In Russian lit a happy ending is where everyone dies quickly, without extended suffering.

So, forgive me if I still don't care for these books at all. It doesn't mean I failed to understand them.

By the way to Gertie, sorry, this was your review, I just got caught up in the exchange. And Marcus, I'm not angry, just clarifying.

No, I wasn't attempting to be condescending at all. I suppose you're right. People have different tastes in reading. Some people might like books that make them happy, and might not like sad stories. As for me, I like books that have that element of sadness to them. Despair is the worst pain that any human being can feel, and I can understand why a book with despair as its theme would repulse you, especially 800 pages of it, just listening to the constant depressing melancholy of one miserable character. I think that the Thomas Covenant books have good lessons in them, but still, probably best to stay away from Donaldson all together if you didn't like Lord Foul's Bane. He gets right into human depravity in some of his other books. I apologize if my previous comment was brazen.

No anger, I really do believe it "to each their own" in literature. I feel this way mostly about "leisure time" novels. I developed a serious attitude against Donaldson some years ago (when the first trilogy was new)(Did you read my review?) A few friends of mine and I started the first trilogy together so, I slogged my way through all 3...I think it may have marked me (LOL). Anyway, I started the second trilogy...got halfway through the first book...saw the same Thomas Covenant, and tossed the book.

Then...a few years later a friend who owns a used book store (probably the nicest one in Nashville) suggested I read The Mirror of Her Dreams, the hero (heroine) had a totally different out look! I started it and met the "female lead"..."woe is me, things are awful, will anything ever be right again...". I put the book down and have never picked up a Donaldson novel since. :)LOL

I had a few harsh moments with the book a few times too.


"So that poor man in the bathroom sat there for over an hour, just letting his lifeblood run into the sink. He didn't try to get help until all of a sudden, finally, he realized that he was going to die just as dead as if he had sipped belladonna tea. Then he tried to open the door--but he was too weak. And he didn't know how to push the button to get help. They eventually found him in this grotesque position on the floor with his fingers broken, as if he--as if he had tried to crawl under the door. He--."

He could not go on. Grief choked him into silence.

Definently not the words you would want to spend your spare time reading. I don't know, I cried when I read it, maybe it's just me.

Just popped in here today by accident and realized I hadn't seen some of these responses.

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I avoid Donaldson all together. Another friend... recommended The Mirror of Her Dreams...I put the book down and never went back"

Actually, I have to say I really enjoyed Mirror of Her Dreams; it's possibly even one of my favorite books. It has been so long since I've read it that very few details come to mind, but I do remember liking it quite a bit, perhaps partly because it had a sweet side to it, something which I found lacking in the Thomas books, a series I picked probably expecting something similar. Naive I know, and I'm sure my expectations didn't help.

I still haven't given this book another try... it's hard to do when there are so many other books waiting to be read I guess!

I know you're not MEANT to like him, but I found it hard to get along with a book where pretty much no character stood out to me, except the ones I loathed. Furthermore, while I have a pretty good stomach, reading about him raping a young girl, for example, disturbed me. However I was like nine and would have read anything so I read the three series and that extra book Gilden Fire or whatever.

The rape just comes out of nowhere-- and doesn't seem to need any particular justification in his mind.

My problem with Covenant's unlikeability, is that it makes no sense and follows no line of logic. Why be bitter when you think you're having a dream wherein you are the epic hero of a magic world?

He's not an outright villain-- which could be spun as sexy or badass. He's just... a whiner, whose whines don't really make sense.

Alice wrote: "I found it hard to get along with a book where pretty much no character stood out to me, except the ones I loathed. ..."

drowningmermaid wrote: "The rape just comes out of nowhere-- and doesn't seem to need any particular justification in his mind... Covenant's unlikeability...makes no sense and follows no line of..."

All so true! Sometimes I feel like I should give this book another chance because of how much others liked it but, no, I'm sure I'd still dislike it. Now, if he has other books like Mirror of Her Dreams, I'm in.

Don't be tricked!!!!! I got trapped in this trilogy group reading it with some friends (back when it came out). TC is one of the great self pitying whiners of all time and the rational behind the rape is idiotic.

In other words, I'm not fond of these books either...

Yes. I had a huge problem with the rape scene in the book. I found it hard to continue on after that and I subsequently put down the book, determined to never pick it up again. But, honestly, the writing is superb. I'm hoping against all hopes that the book is leading into a climax that proffers some kind of redeeming hope for what begins bleakly. I highly doubt it. After reading these posts I'm reluctant to pick this book up again.

I loved the writing in the first couple of chapters, but found it devolved for me and never recovered. I railed about this for some time in my review.

what makes these books so so good, are the same reasons they are not for everyone....this aint pop music, its grimy indie rock.

No...

It's not that we don't get it. We Just don't like TC. I feel the same way about these books I do about slasher flicks where we get long detailed shots of bloody death and people begging for their lives. I don't see how it can be enjoyed.

(view spoiler)[Covenant is a self centered rapist. (hide spoiler)]

In TC's defense, he's probably only (view spoiler)[ raping her to find out if he's dreaming or not. (hide spoiler)]

I guess. It's not very well explained in the book. Also... that's really not the first thing I try out when I think I'm dreaming. Or the second.

If you see the wiki article, TC was nominated the most unlikable supposedly-sympathetic hero in the history of ever.

Yes it is explained in the book drowningmermaid, I get the significance that he did "it" to refute the reality of "The Land". Not a great way to go about it.

Look (and this isn't my review, I trashed it in mine) I get that people like the writing here and get involved and that helps some see TC in a less negative light. I read all three of the first series as they became available and found nothing much redeeming about the character.

To each. I doubt that coming to a review of a book someone dislikes and that you like and telling them that they just don't get it will ever work. I usually suggest that people who like a book I dislike review it themselves.

Lol, yeah I wouldn't buy that defense (though it could be what the author intended). That's interesting about the article... gonna track it down:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ch...

The comment drowningmermaid noticed is under Critical Response.

What is interesting to me about this is that on the topic of "sympathetic" characters, I LOVE the show "Dexter". I would be hard pressed to explain the difference without a little caffeine first, however.

My daughter watches Dexter, I read the first book and even though I'm supposed to "get" what happened to him he still creeps me out.

:)

Agreed totally. Didn't want to read about a character that I loathed.

Gertie wrote: "What is interesting to me about this is that on the topic of "sympathetic" characters, I LOVE the show "Dexter". I would be hard pressed to explain the difference without a little caffeine first, ..."

I've never seen Dexter, but I thought he works a little like "Boondock Saints" in that he pretty much only kills bad people. Oddly, in literary terms, it's oftten more okay to kill than to rape. Even though rape is, you know, survivable.

Times when it's literarily okay for a someone to rape:
- when they're raging nutbuckets and they think they're saving the world by raping said nice chick. (If you or anyone you know have actually lived through this, though, you'll find it's not actually all that okay.)
- when they aren't raging nutbuckets and they somehow actually Were saving the world
- when the rapee somehow really had it coming by being an entirely awful person
- when the rapist genuinely struggles with some level of self-awareness and self-loathing for his action (see Lolita) and suffers some consequence for it.
- when the rapist is not meant to be a sympathetic character at all. He's a rapist because he's a piece of crap.

I think Covenant's failing is that he's not raging nutbuckets, he's not meant to be a piece of crap, and yet he hurts people and then spends the whole book whining about how leprous he is. Even though, in his dream, he's not leprous. He has the miraculous ability to evade any shred of gratitude for everything that people do for him, including not kill him when they know he's a rapist.

Donaldson begins the character in this way as a challenge to himself, as the books progress you cheer and support him more than any hero ive ever read about.

...well to each I suppose.

Harry, I don't mind flawed characters. I actually prefer them to perfect characters. But, rape is going a bit further than a flaw, IMO.

There are no times when it's literally okay to rape someone. You can kill someone in defense of your own life, or the lives of others. But that's no excuse for rape. And no one is ever so awful that they "have it coming." Jesus Christ.