Petra It's a year now, still in a dark place's Reviews > NeuroTribes: The Legacy of Autism and the Future of Neurodiversity
NeuroTribes: The Legacy of Autism and the Future of Neurodiversity
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Petra It's a year now, still in a dark place's review
bookshelves: 2016-150-reviews, 2016-read, popculture-anthropology, psycho-neurology-crime, medicine-science, reviewed
Feb 27, 2016
bookshelves: 2016-150-reviews, 2016-read, popculture-anthropology, psycho-neurology-crime, medicine-science, reviewed
Finished. Very long review. Apologies. Skip to paragraph 3 ** for a horror story. The book was hard to rate. Some of it is as bad as a 1-star: excreble writing when he's giving far too much detail about the irrelevant (to the book) discoveries of the 18thC scientist Henry Cavendish whom he confidently diagnoses as Aspergers. 3 stars for most of it where the research is general too narrowly focused on too few people but quite in depth for them and 5 stars for giving away such appalling things as the typo in DSM III.
People forget that DSM is a for-profit company. It made $10M on DSM III. It had 25 committees of people searching for evidence of at least 25 different symptoms of autism. They were well paid as professionals. They consulted all kinds of people from teachers to those therapists qualified by attendance at a day's seminar in some hotel ballroom. In other words, everyone involved had a pecuniary interest in diagnosing autism in as broad a way as possible.
** But to the terrible typo. For those who might be autistic or have aspergers or might not but definitely seemed to have something, there was always PDD-NOS. The intention was that children being diagnosed would have a certain number of symptoms from list A, from list B and list C. However, instead of 'and' the word 'or' was substituted. The author reckons that 75% of all children diagnosed with PDD-NOS didn't in fact have anything.
Hans Asperger said, a long time ago and his words have been nearly forgotten, trampled on and now totally ignored, not to pathologise eccentricities! Just because someone is weird doesn't make them mental! Forget that, they're all on the spectrum now.
I was going to write a long and well-argued (hopefully) review of the book and of own my own opinion that Aspergers and Autism are not related at all. But I'll keep that for another time and stick to reviewing the book (view spoiler) . I do think that a lot of children so diagnosed don't have autism at all and grow out of it (or according to many therapists are 'cured') in much the same way that 90% or more of the kiddies put on Ritalin turned out to be normal adults. The incidence of ADHD in America in children is higher than anywhere else in the world. But the figures for adults are more or less the same in all the countries of the West.
By all evidence that I've seen and read, Aspergers is most often just a personality type, that is unless you want to diagnose almost the entirety of Silicon Valley and perhaps computer people in general with having it. Would we even be so advanced in electronics without these people? In any case, quite a few of the 'symptoms' of Aspergers are common to Prosopagnosia or face-blindness (I have it so I know) which is only just being recognised and most people with it just think they are bad at remembering people, but there is more to it than that.
If a child has hobbies he is really into, he's encouraged and parents' say things like, 'the way he's always taking apart things, you could see he's going to be an engineer'. If a child would rather just play with one good friend, then that friend gets invited over more for tea and parents' say he's a bit of a loner. If the child is really good at maths, parents praise him. But once he has a diagnosis of autism, suddenly he's not got a hobby he's mad keen on, no that's perseveration, his kind of sociability is now inability to communicate, his ability with maths is an unhealthy autistic obsession. And so it goes... It's a self-fulfilling diagnosis.
So overall, it's quite a good book on the history of the diagnosis of Austism and relatively recently, Aspergers. But it isn't really about Neurotribes at all.
A final thought. If we stopped thinking of neurotypical people as normal but thought of them as the most common personality type, or the most usual, then those who were different would not be abnormal, but unusual, rare or even, as say A+ is in the world of blood groups, just uncommon. There would still be those who were definitely abnormal, Autism wouldn't go away, but people who are different wouldn't be labelled and if there were enough of them in each group, might get special ed. As in - a group of nerdy loners that don't like playing games in the playground, could be taught together in their favourite academic subjects and everyone would be a winner. Teachers, children and society. In any case it's better than making them depressed and feeling bad about not fitting in by labelling them abnormal.
Notes on reading the book(view spoiler)
People forget that DSM is a for-profit company. It made $10M on DSM III. It had 25 committees of people searching for evidence of at least 25 different symptoms of autism. They were well paid as professionals. They consulted all kinds of people from teachers to those therapists qualified by attendance at a day's seminar in some hotel ballroom. In other words, everyone involved had a pecuniary interest in diagnosing autism in as broad a way as possible.
** But to the terrible typo. For those who might be autistic or have aspergers or might not but definitely seemed to have something, there was always PDD-NOS. The intention was that children being diagnosed would have a certain number of symptoms from list A, from list B and list C. However, instead of 'and' the word 'or' was substituted. The author reckons that 75% of all children diagnosed with PDD-NOS didn't in fact have anything.
Hans Asperger said, a long time ago and his words have been nearly forgotten, trampled on and now totally ignored, not to pathologise eccentricities! Just because someone is weird doesn't make them mental! Forget that, they're all on the spectrum now.
I was going to write a long and well-argued (hopefully) review of the book and of own my own opinion that Aspergers and Autism are not related at all. But I'll keep that for another time and stick to reviewing the book (view spoiler) . I do think that a lot of children so diagnosed don't have autism at all and grow out of it (or according to many therapists are 'cured') in much the same way that 90% or more of the kiddies put on Ritalin turned out to be normal adults. The incidence of ADHD in America in children is higher than anywhere else in the world. But the figures for adults are more or less the same in all the countries of the West.
By all evidence that I've seen and read, Aspergers is most often just a personality type, that is unless you want to diagnose almost the entirety of Silicon Valley and perhaps computer people in general with having it. Would we even be so advanced in electronics without these people? In any case, quite a few of the 'symptoms' of Aspergers are common to Prosopagnosia or face-blindness (I have it so I know) which is only just being recognised and most people with it just think they are bad at remembering people, but there is more to it than that.
If a child has hobbies he is really into, he's encouraged and parents' say things like, 'the way he's always taking apart things, you could see he's going to be an engineer'. If a child would rather just play with one good friend, then that friend gets invited over more for tea and parents' say he's a bit of a loner. If the child is really good at maths, parents praise him. But once he has a diagnosis of autism, suddenly he's not got a hobby he's mad keen on, no that's perseveration, his kind of sociability is now inability to communicate, his ability with maths is an unhealthy autistic obsession. And so it goes... It's a self-fulfilling diagnosis.
So overall, it's quite a good book on the history of the diagnosis of Austism and relatively recently, Aspergers. But it isn't really about Neurotribes at all.
A final thought. If we stopped thinking of neurotypical people as normal but thought of them as the most common personality type, or the most usual, then those who were different would not be abnormal, but unusual, rare or even, as say A+ is in the world of blood groups, just uncommon. There would still be those who were definitely abnormal, Autism wouldn't go away, but people who are different wouldn't be labelled and if there were enough of them in each group, might get special ed. As in - a group of nerdy loners that don't like playing games in the playground, could be taught together in their favourite academic subjects and everyone would be a winner. Teachers, children and society. In any case it's better than making them depressed and feeling bad about not fitting in by labelling them abnormal.
Notes on reading the book(view spoiler)
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Reading Progress
February 27, 2016
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February 27, 2016
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March 7, 2016
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2016-150-reviews
March 7, 2016
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2016-read
March 7, 2016
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popculture-anthropology
March 7, 2016
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psycho-neurology-crime
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medicine-science
March 7, 2016
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reviewed
March 8, 2016
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Comments Showing 1-50 of 55 (55 new)
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Nancy
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rated it 4 stars
Feb 28, 2016 07:52PM
You are right about it being uneven. I think there is an excellent 300 page book embedded in these 500+ pages. It is worth reading to discover the good parts, but kind of frustrating.
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My two daughters have autism. The DSM IV dictated that children who had speech delays were to be diagnosed as having autism, while those that didn't were classified as Asperger's syndrome; however, now that my daughters are adults (or even as teenagers), they're indistinguishable from kids whose diagnosis is Asperger's syndrome.
The DSM V is eliminating the Asperger's designation altogether and lumping everyone in one group. Which makes more sense, really.
The DSM V is eliminating the Asperger's designation altogether and lumping everyone in one group. Which makes more sense, really.
It works for you. Not for me. The DSM is not infallible. If it was new criteria for old disorders/diseases wouldn't continually be introduced.
At some stage in some review, probably this one, I will write why I don't believe Aspergers and Autism are related and why a misdiagnosis is harmful to at least one group, if not both. But I want to finish the book first.
At some stage in some review, probably this one, I will write why I don't believe Aspergers and Autism are related and why a misdiagnosis is harmful to at least one group, if not both. But I want to finish the book first.
Interesting! I question that too - whether Aspergers and Autism are related. And I have good first hand experience.
Considering that autism is now more and more believed to often have genetical components and causes, it is perhaps understandable (but still unfortunate) that some even perhaps many parents would rather believe that autism is caused by an "outside source" such as vaccines.
No, not exactly. The sudden increase recently in autism rates points to environmental causes. Genetic changes take generations to appear. Some genetics may make some individuals more susceptible however. Only about 10% right now is connected to genetics. http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/directo...
I would not judge parents who have first hand experience.
I would not judge parents who have first hand experience.
MomToKippy wrote: "No, not exactly. The sudden increase recently in autism rates points to environmental causes. ..."
I don't think so. I think the "sudden increase" is due to diagnostic methods. Same with ADD/ADHD. Greatly aided by Big Pharma and Alternative Therapy, some of who invented new treatments and new qualifications and stood to benefit financially.
People always want to find someone to blame and then someone to fix it. And if the fixing it costs a lot of money and time and effort then it must be good, right?
I don't think so. I think the "sudden increase" is due to diagnostic methods. Same with ADD/ADHD. Greatly aided by Big Pharma and Alternative Therapy, some of who invented new treatments and new qualifications and stood to benefit financially.
People always want to find someone to blame and then someone to fix it. And if the fixing it costs a lot of money and time and effort then it must be good, right?
The elimination of Asperger's from DSM V is entirely down to money; you can't "fix" it with drugs because there's nothing actually wrong in the first place, just a difference from neurotypicals. Instead one has to provide life-long, expensive support of various kinds because the world is run by neurotypicals for neurotypicals. Hence American insurance companies lose money on an Asperger's diagnosis and pharmaceutical companies can't make any money, either. So they collude to eliminate the whole concept.
People with Asperger's appear to have structural differences in their brains as compared to neurotypicals, although the sample sizes involved in all forms of comparative brain studies seem small. There have also been over 100 genetic variations that have been implicated, most of which appear to be brain-related. Very little research has been done on epigenetic/environmental factors. A decent survey can be found in The Autistic Brain: Thinking Across the Spectrum.
Robert wrote: "The elimination of Asperger's from DSM V is entirely down to money; you can't "fix" it with drugs because there's nothing actually wrong in the first place, just a difference from neurotypicals. In..."
We are thinking along the same lines. :-)
We are thinking along the same lines. :-)
I agree diagnosis is a factor in the increase too. As for the money aspect - think about what a push for reduction in the amount of vaccines given children would do to pharmaceutical companies? Bet they are motivated to study vaccine contribution to disorders right? haha
I agree entirely with Petra's comments above. I've not had an 'official' diagnosis, but my son has - of significant dyspraxia and my daughter if dyslexia and the other son, a talented mathematician and physicist shows similar traits.
I have all my dyspraxic son's traits and some extra, and generally more marked than him. When I was in school, I don't think any autism spectrum disorders were recognised. I've seen first hand the degree of isolation that even 'mild' Autism can create and while Aspergers-> Dyspraxia/Dyslexia can also do that, it is not usually limiting to the same degree and I claim it has unlocked unusual powers of observation, pattern recognition and lateral thinking creativity in me.
I was quite late speaking and reading - but when I started, boy did I let rip! I may have had to carry a fortnight's schedule of text books with me daily, as the only way to have the right ones when needed - but without knowing why or how, and despite being previously labelled 'slow', 'clumsy', 'obtuse', 'untidy', 'socially awkward', 'loner', 'obsessive' 'inflexible' (in my kindergarten reports! = 'stupid') from the start in high school I was immediately top of my year among boys, and every year after that, in a contingent of hundreds per year from two large towns (not just half a town, for my kindergarten school). Yet I probably would have failed my '11 Plus' exam for selective education by Grammar School, had they not just abolished it!
Sadly my parents only paid attention to negatives, never praised achievements etc as my father was a tyrannical perfectionist auto-didact, with sociopathic and narcissistic tendencies. While I'm sure he passed on curiosity and healthily determined characteristics to my brother and myself, I'm glad I share none of his hostility to family. I wonder now if he too had an autistic syndrome personality?
I think it's still very difficult to know, with any certainty, what is dictated by genes mainly or even alone; significantly destructive character traits can be erased in a generation, following a change in circumstances (marriage to someone loving, wise and patient helps) or even a life-changing insight (such as 'finding faith'). But as far as I know, the traits of Autistic spectrum remain through life whatever providence brings.
I know it's beyond the purview of this thread, but my reading is often now about memory and the interpretation of sensory perceptions (jut downloaded the complete 'Temps Perdues' by Proust!). The 'answers' I find often raise more questions, some hostile.
Coming into my own older age (not quite 60) I find that my instinctive or self-discovered ploys to hide/escape and overcome dyspraxia / Aspergers are now failing me and I wonder whether I should seek diagnosis (at least £250 GBP cost); what solidarity with others, medical benefit or other support, if any, would having an official diagnosis bring me?
I have all my dyspraxic son's traits and some extra, and generally more marked than him. When I was in school, I don't think any autism spectrum disorders were recognised. I've seen first hand the degree of isolation that even 'mild' Autism can create and while Aspergers-> Dyspraxia/Dyslexia can also do that, it is not usually limiting to the same degree and I claim it has unlocked unusual powers of observation, pattern recognition and lateral thinking creativity in me.
I was quite late speaking and reading - but when I started, boy did I let rip! I may have had to carry a fortnight's schedule of text books with me daily, as the only way to have the right ones when needed - but without knowing why or how, and despite being previously labelled 'slow', 'clumsy', 'obtuse', 'untidy', 'socially awkward', 'loner', 'obsessive' 'inflexible' (in my kindergarten reports! = 'stupid') from the start in high school I was immediately top of my year among boys, and every year after that, in a contingent of hundreds per year from two large towns (not just half a town, for my kindergarten school). Yet I probably would have failed my '11 Plus' exam for selective education by Grammar School, had they not just abolished it!
Sadly my parents only paid attention to negatives, never praised achievements etc as my father was a tyrannical perfectionist auto-didact, with sociopathic and narcissistic tendencies. While I'm sure he passed on curiosity and healthily determined characteristics to my brother and myself, I'm glad I share none of his hostility to family. I wonder now if he too had an autistic syndrome personality?
I think it's still very difficult to know, with any certainty, what is dictated by genes mainly or even alone; significantly destructive character traits can be erased in a generation, following a change in circumstances (marriage to someone loving, wise and patient helps) or even a life-changing insight (such as 'finding faith'). But as far as I know, the traits of Autistic spectrum remain through life whatever providence brings.
I know it's beyond the purview of this thread, but my reading is often now about memory and the interpretation of sensory perceptions (jut downloaded the complete 'Temps Perdues' by Proust!). The 'answers' I find often raise more questions, some hostile.
Coming into my own older age (not quite 60) I find that my instinctive or self-discovered ploys to hide/escape and overcome dyspraxia / Aspergers are now failing me and I wonder whether I should seek diagnosis (at least £250 GBP cost); what solidarity with others, medical benefit or other support, if any, would having an official diagnosis bring me?
Excellent review, Petra. Your observation on Aspergers as being (in most people) a personality type particularly struck a chord. I've limited experience but one member of my extended family is diagnosed with having this condition. She is quiet and introverted but can be extremely forthright. She's also very bright. Most of the time (at least the times I've been around her) she integrates well within family groups. I've often wondered if it's just the way she is, not a medically diagnosed condition.
Very thoughtful review, which makes a lot of sense to me. Am sure the drug companies wished Aspergers was close enough to ADHD to justify all of them taking Adderal etc. The DSM is a strange and powerful beast, lumping and splitting its way through the galaxy of behaviors, like Linneaus before Darwin, with the drug companies ready with hammers to bop down the pieces defined as bent.
Michael wrote: "with the drug companies ready with hammers to bop down the pieces defined as bent. ..."
Huge therapies not based, or only loosely so, have grown up around autism because there is no cure and for money these people will promise a cure. Everything from $20 a session nutrititionists to multi-million dollar scams. In What About the Boy? the parents resort to the 24 hour a day punishing schedule of The Institute of Human Potential a multi-million dollar business for 'curing' autism. No one gets cured everyone either drops out because the schedule is too arduous or they haven't got any money left.
People put their faith in these therapies because there is nothing else. They'd go to shamans if only a dozen credible people would sell their story to Time about their kids were cured. So these Institutes they also have input and it is in their interests to widen the diagnosis of autism.
Huge therapies not based, or only loosely so, have grown up around autism because there is no cure and for money these people will promise a cure. Everything from $20 a session nutrititionists to multi-million dollar scams. In What About the Boy? the parents resort to the 24 hour a day punishing schedule of The Institute of Human Potential a multi-million dollar business for 'curing' autism. No one gets cured everyone either drops out because the schedule is too arduous or they haven't got any money left.
People put their faith in these therapies because there is nothing else. They'd go to shamans if only a dozen credible people would sell their story to Time about their kids were cured. So these Institutes they also have input and it is in their interests to widen the diagnosis of autism.
Thank you Deanna and Carmen. I'm very interested in neurological differences and very fed up with people who are different having their differences diagnosed as pathology. It takes away attention and money from those who really have problems that need addressing.
That's what comes of having Medicine as a top-earning industry in a fiercely-capitalist country. The market must constantly expand. More and more illnesses must be diagnosed otherwise it would stagnate. There are benefits without doubt, but the benefits have to be profitable in themselves or those treatments will be sidelined.
Petra X wrote: "That's what comes of having Medicine as a top-earning industry in a fiercely-capitalist country. The market must constantly expand. More and more illnesses must be diagnosed otherwise it would stag..."
I think you should read The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome before assuming Asperger's is a non-trivial personality variation.
I think you should read The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome before assuming Asperger's is a non-trivial personality variation.
I don't think it is trivial if you have it. I also don't think it's the same animal as autism and I think it is massively over-diagnosed. Far from it. This does not benefit people with it at all when it is trivialised by far too many people who are supposed to have a disorder that needs help and haven't got it because any help is going to work for them. I've seen it with ADHD and how in the schools my son went to just about all the really naughty and/or wild children were diagnosed with it and put on Ritalin, and the kid who quite obviously had something got no special treatment. They grew out of it of course, he never did.
It is important not to say you have flu when you have a cold or a migraine when you have a headache, otherwise the 'cures' for flu and migraines are not going to work when someone really has them.
It is important not to say you have flu when you have a cold or a migraine when you have a headache, otherwise the 'cures' for flu and migraines are not going to work when someone really has them.
Petra X wrote: "I don't think it is trivial if you have it. I also don't think it's the same animal as autism and I think it is massively over-diagnosed. Far from it. This does not benefit people with it at all wh..."
Again, if you read the book you might see the connection with autism.
Again, if you read the book you might see the connection with autism.
Robert wrote: "Again, if you read the book you might see the connection with autism. ..."
Austism is in it's classic not-overdiagnosed form one where the person does not want to communicate but to be left to live in their world. Aspergers is the opposite, people who seriously want to communicate and have problems doing so. It is as in all books of this nature, I am expected to believe the book over my own experiences. Sometimes I do, but not always. I have read many arguments for aspergers on the autism spectrum and I don't agree with them.
Robert, I respect your opinion as always. You've had different life experiences to me, but I think this is one we are going to have to disagree on.
Austism is in it's classic not-overdiagnosed form one where the person does not want to communicate but to be left to live in their world. Aspergers is the opposite, people who seriously want to communicate and have problems doing so. It is as in all books of this nature, I am expected to believe the book over my own experiences. Sometimes I do, but not always. I have read many arguments for aspergers on the autism spectrum and I don't agree with them.
Robert, I respect your opinion as always. You've had different life experiences to me, but I think this is one we are going to have to disagree on.
Petra X wrote: "Robert wrote: "Again, if you read the book you might see the connection with autism. ..."
Austism is in it's classic not-overdiagnosed form one where the person does not want to communicate but t..."
Your first statement doesn't seem correct: just because someone doesn't communicate, doesn't mean they don't want to. It might mean they are unable to and I've never come across that definition of autism.
Austism is in it's classic not-overdiagnosed form one where the person does not want to communicate but t..."
Your first statement doesn't seem correct: just because someone doesn't communicate, doesn't mean they don't want to. It might mean they are unable to and I've never come across that definition of autism.
Ixan wrote: "Very soon any deviation from the standard will attract a label and schools will insist we pay for therapy. Eugenics for the 21st Century."
I get the impression it's almost the opposite here in the UK: schools try to postpone official diagnosis because then they (the school/local authority) have to pay for additional support, teaching assistant, or whatever.
I get the impression it's almost the opposite here in the UK: schools try to postpone official diagnosis because then they (the school/local authority) have to pay for additional support, teaching assistant, or whatever.
Cecily wrote: "I get the impression it's almost the opposite here in the UK: schools try to postpone official diagnosis because then they (the school/local authority) has to pay for additional support, teaching assistant, or whatever.
..."
It was the same with ADHD and Ritalin. The UK, all Europe, was very far behind the US.
..."
It was the same with ADHD and Ritalin. The UK, all Europe, was very far behind the US.
Petra X wrote: "It was the same with ADHD and Ritalin. The UK, all Europe, was very far behind the US"
It's probably no coincidence that they're all conditions where it is difficult (impossible?) to have a cast-iron diagnosis, in the way that one can with diabetes or Down's syndrome.
On the other hand, there is concern that Ritalin is too readily and widely prescribed in the US, especially to very young children. (I've not investigated the validity of that concern.)
It's probably no coincidence that they're all conditions where it is difficult (impossible?) to have a cast-iron diagnosis, in the way that one can with diabetes or Down's syndrome.
On the other hand, there is concern that Ritalin is too readily and widely prescribed in the US, especially to very young children. (I've not investigated the validity of that concern.)
Cecily wrote: "It's probably no coincidence that they're all conditions where it is difficult (impossible?) to have a cast-iron diagnosis, in the way that one can with diabetes or Down's syndrome. ..."
I think there are a lot of mental disorders that are difficult to diagnose. Bipolar is another one. I'm not sure if it is beneficial to make diagnoses broader and broader until all of us have some symptoms of all kind of things. Still I suppose it gets them access to therapies and medications which they may or may not really need. Like antibiotics and the flu... Maybe therapies and a diagnosis have a placebo effect?
I think there are a lot of mental disorders that are difficult to diagnose. Bipolar is another one. I'm not sure if it is beneficial to make diagnoses broader and broader until all of us have some symptoms of all kind of things. Still I suppose it gets them access to therapies and medications which they may or may not really need. Like antibiotics and the flu... Maybe therapies and a diagnosis have a placebo effect?
Petra X wrote: "Maybe therapies and a diagnosis have a placebo effect? "
Undoubtedly. I know you're a fan of Ben Goldacre, so you're aware of how extraordinary the placebo effect is, even down to red sugar pills being more powerful than blue, and injections more than pills.
Undoubtedly. I know you're a fan of Ben Goldacre, so you're aware of how extraordinary the placebo effect is, even down to red sugar pills being more powerful than blue, and injections more than pills.
A lot of people confuse the placebo effect with the power of positive thinking, it isn't the same. I do wonder if they were combined, if the effect wouldn't be stronger despite the absolute inefficacy of the "therapy" itself?
I'm sure they would. Then again, another thing I remember from Goldacre is that the placebo effect is so powerful that even if a doctor tells a patient that they're prescribing a placebo, AND explains that that means it's a sugar pill with no active pharmaceuticals, but that it may help anyway - it does!
To me it is tremendously interesting when an expert in a field, questions the value of his practice. One of Harvard's researchers, Dr Kaptchuk into the placebo effect is a highly-qualified acupuncturist, who said, "Patients who came to me got better,” but sometimes their relief began even before he’d started his treatments. He later conducted a trial of people with IBS. One third got no treatment, one third got sham acupuncture and one third got sham acupuncture and a lot of "shmaltzy" tlc. The second and third groups got better!
You can read it here.
You can read it here.
Petra X wrote: "To me it is tremendously interesting when an expert in a field, questions the value of his practice. One of Harvard's researchers, Dr Kaptchuk into the placebo effect is a highly-qualified acupunct..."
Thanks for that link. It was a well rounded article. My first area of research was on a brain area where electrical stimulation caused analgesia and was later found to be part of a descending active pain supression system that could be activated by acupucture and likely some forms of the placebo effect. It was disturbing that sham acupuncture was shown to work almost as well as proper needle placement but still okay if brain systems involved with expectations and emotions could feed into the pathway. In my projects with rural primary health care delivery I am trying to encourage providers to tap into approaches to help suffering and natural healing with relaxation, stress reduction apps, midful meditation, exercise etc.
But back to autism, I wonder if the author mentions anything about music therapy, which showed up in my reading of This Is Your Brain on Music: The Science of a Human Obsession. Also, God knows what placebo juices in the brain is evoked by therapeutic touch, massage, and simple hugging, but a lot of autistics are averse to touch. How to get past that? I remember Temple Grantin invented a mechanical hugging machine. Which in turn reminds me of Harlow's monkeys, who in experiments in the 50s made up for a lack of a mother (i.e. didn't end up "autistic" or psychotic) when given a cloth covered doll to cling to.
Thanks for that link. It was a well rounded article. My first area of research was on a brain area where electrical stimulation caused analgesia and was later found to be part of a descending active pain supression system that could be activated by acupucture and likely some forms of the placebo effect. It was disturbing that sham acupuncture was shown to work almost as well as proper needle placement but still okay if brain systems involved with expectations and emotions could feed into the pathway. In my projects with rural primary health care delivery I am trying to encourage providers to tap into approaches to help suffering and natural healing with relaxation, stress reduction apps, midful meditation, exercise etc.
But back to autism, I wonder if the author mentions anything about music therapy, which showed up in my reading of This Is Your Brain on Music: The Science of a Human Obsession. Also, God knows what placebo juices in the brain is evoked by therapeutic touch, massage, and simple hugging, but a lot of autistics are averse to touch. How to get past that? I remember Temple Grantin invented a mechanical hugging machine. Which in turn reminds me of Harlow's monkeys, who in experiments in the 50s made up for a lack of a mother (i.e. didn't end up "autistic" or psychotic) when given a cloth covered doll to cling to.
Michael wrote: " It was disturbing that sham acupuncture was shown to work almost as well as proper needle placement ..."
That was necessary though - fake v fake. That is tremendously important. I think we are just at the beginning of research into placebo which may end up being the most important medical discovery of this century. If we can get our minds to heal ourselves then it is going to be down to how to invoke the reaction in specific ways.
That was necessary though - fake v fake. That is tremendously important. I think we are just at the beginning of research into placebo which may end up being the most important medical discovery of this century. If we can get our minds to heal ourselves then it is going to be down to how to invoke the reaction in specific ways.
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Petra It's a year now, still in a dark place
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rated it 4 stars
Sxxxxc..... I deleted your comments. You really only wanted to direct people to your blog in several comments. That's not what a review section is for.
Sxxxxxy wrote: "Well, I just posted it twice. That said, I'll stop referring other people to your review. Have a nice day, or don't. Goodbye."
Putting up links to your blog and telling people to go and read your reviews there and posting that "comment" twice isn't anything to do with the review, but just self-promotion.
Putting up links to your blog and telling people to go and read your reviews there and posting that "comment" twice isn't anything to do with the review, but just self-promotion.
message 40:
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aPriL does feral sometimes
(last edited Nov 28, 2016 08:03AM)
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rated it 5 stars
P.S. It definitely needs fixing, Petra. It isn't just being different. It is a living hell on bad days, and they hurt themselves, too.
aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "I share a home with a high-functioning 'neurodiverse'' person. It is hellish on some days. There are certain symptoms, well described in the book. He is in his mid-70's now. I have known him for 40..."
I don't need "fixing", thanks very much.
I don't need "fixing", thanks very much.
If I hurt your feelings, Robert, I apologize. I wash bloody sheets regularly from someone I know who can't let skin injuries alone, among other things.
message 43:
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Petra It's a year now, still in a dark place
(last edited Nov 28, 2016 04:45PM)
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rated it 4 stars
Robert wrote: "I don't need "fixing", thanks very much. ..."
Well said! If a person lives an independent life then they are who they are, that's their personality and no one should be pathologising them but more celebrating their individuality, not the bits that personally annoy them. (We all have traits that annoy other people. Except me of course. And the Queen.)
April you have known some people you think have extreme problems. I'm not saying they don't, I'm not negating your experience at all. But to generalise and say about them as a group, "they hurt themselves" as if all of them go in for self-harm....really?
On Saturday I held a book-reading in my shop. It was very special because the author was 10 and had just published her first book. She had been excluded from the American school by the educational psychologist of a headmistress. They said she has autism and does not fit in and is disruptive and needs special education which they cannot supply.
So I've met the little girl on numerous occasions. She is definitely different. She's much brighter than most children and will interrupt conversations with corrections and her point of view. She goes on about things that are her interests and is more blunt in both words and facial expressions when bored or thinks you are wrong.
She is also sunny, jumps around a lot and at least three-quarters of the time a little sweetheart. Her mother now homeschools her and her brother.
She's a fine little girl who was reading her book and telling the other kids how they also could write one and get it published. Why would someone want to change her? Why not encourage her? She will find friends who don't mind her weirdness and enjoy her intelligence and creativity. We are all different.
Well said! If a person lives an independent life then they are who they are, that's their personality and no one should be pathologising them but more celebrating their individuality, not the bits that personally annoy them. (We all have traits that annoy other people. Except me of course. And the Queen.)
April you have known some people you think have extreme problems. I'm not saying they don't, I'm not negating your experience at all. But to generalise and say about them as a group, "they hurt themselves" as if all of them go in for self-harm....really?
On Saturday I held a book-reading in my shop. It was very special because the author was 10 and had just published her first book. She had been excluded from the American school by the educational psychologist of a headmistress. They said she has autism and does not fit in and is disruptive and needs special education which they cannot supply.
So I've met the little girl on numerous occasions. She is definitely different. She's much brighter than most children and will interrupt conversations with corrections and her point of view. She goes on about things that are her interests and is more blunt in both words and facial expressions when bored or thinks you are wrong.
She is also sunny, jumps around a lot and at least three-quarters of the time a little sweetheart. Her mother now homeschools her and her brother.
She's a fine little girl who was reading her book and telling the other kids how they also could write one and get it published. Why would someone want to change her? Why not encourage her? She will find friends who don't mind her weirdness and enjoy her intelligence and creativity. We are all different.
aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "If I hurt your feelings, Robert, I apologize. I wash bloody sheets regularly from someone I know who can't let skin injuries alone, among other things."
Apology accepted; it's certainly true that sensory issues are top of the list of things autistic people tend to want help with and the one you describe sounds particularly bad in that it could lead to potential physical harm.
A lot of autistic people are sensitised to language that suggests their condition is something that needs to be fixed/cured as any genuine "cure" is essentially a personality wipe; the destruction of the self they identify with. I am lucky enough to live in a society where such views are comparatively rare and have negligible influence on health-care decisions. Others are not so fortunate e.g. in the USA bogus treatments that claim to normalise or cure are all too prevalent and the insurance industry is driven to find a "cure" because they cannot profit from life-long expensive support services to autistic people.
Apology accepted; it's certainly true that sensory issues are top of the list of things autistic people tend to want help with and the one you describe sounds particularly bad in that it could lead to potential physical harm.
A lot of autistic people are sensitised to language that suggests their condition is something that needs to be fixed/cured as any genuine "cure" is essentially a personality wipe; the destruction of the self they identify with. I am lucky enough to live in a society where such views are comparatively rare and have negligible influence on health-care decisions. Others are not so fortunate e.g. in the USA bogus treatments that claim to normalise or cure are all too prevalent and the insurance industry is driven to find a "cure" because they cannot profit from life-long expensive support services to autistic people.
Petra X wrote: "Robert wrote: "I don't need "fixing", thanks very much. ..."
Well said! If a person lives an independent life then they are who they are, that's their personality and no one should be pathologisin..."
You've certainly described a number of traits that would be considered autistic and the attitude on show is typical of that towards anybody out of the ordinary: You're inconvenient so get lost.
Well said! If a person lives an independent life then they are who they are, that's their personality and no one should be pathologisin..."
You've certainly described a number of traits that would be considered autistic and the attitude on show is typical of that towards anybody out of the ordinary: You're inconvenient so get lost.
aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "They don't know they are self-harming - from feeling they are...."
Surely you mean "he" not they? This is particular-to-a-person behaviour and it might mean that person is very difficult to live with but to suggest it is general behaviour and ought to be fixed if possible.... I can't go along with that.
Surely you mean "he" not they? This is particular-to-a-person behaviour and it might mean that person is very difficult to live with but to suggest it is general behaviour and ought to be fixed if possible.... I can't go along with that.
Robert wrote: "You've certainly described a number of traits that would be considered autistic and the attitude on show is typical of that towards anybody out of the ordinary: You're inconvenient so get lost. . ..."
That is, as you say, very American.
I do think people can really have these neurological problems though. Without doubt. In my son's class in school, a best friend's daughter, another friend's sister's son.... these are people who definitely have problems on the neurological spectrum that have caused them and others infinite misery.
But I don't accept having personality traits that are unusual is anything except that. Not ordinary. I like people out of the ordinary. I suspect a lot of book people do.
That is, as you say, very American.
I do think people can really have these neurological problems though. Without doubt. In my son's class in school, a best friend's daughter, another friend's sister's son.... these are people who definitely have problems on the neurological spectrum that have caused them and others infinite misery.
But I don't accept having personality traits that are unusual is anything except that. Not ordinary. I like people out of the ordinary. I suspect a lot of book people do.
aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "I mean 'they' in my comment, having tried to disguise or generalize several similar incidents into one. Sorry. If my comments are too boring and dull or off, I can delete them. : )
My companion wa..."
Are you yourself autistic or have aspergers? It does seem that the way you go on and talk about yourself and your experience and ignore other comments when they don't fit what you want to talk about that you might be. If so are you diagnosed or self-diagnosed and do you think you need fixing?
My companion wa..."
Are you yourself autistic or have aspergers? It does seem that the way you go on and talk about yourself and your experience and ignore other comments when they don't fit what you want to talk about that you might be. If so are you diagnosed or self-diagnosed and do you think you need fixing?
message 49:
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aPriL does feral sometimes
(last edited Nov 29, 2016 06:36AM)
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rated it 5 stars
What comments did I ignore? None were directed at me except my fix comment, and that actually was a misunderstanding of my direction. I was talking about what happened at different companies and schools and my own friend when there turned out to be no resources but lots of promises to help with integration and education. Instead there was a lot of dropping out in my experience because of a lack of sustained interest or follow-up or kids and adults wandering in the street or in shelters, or stuck at home with family and no resources. There is a lot of need but no real assistance except lots of sayings like, "Stay strong" or "good for you!" or "keep fighting!" but nothing is actually there to help. I thought maybe people thought I did not know what I'm talking about, so I expanded to establish my bonafides. I wish people could be fixed, but I know they can't without a lot of childhood specialty education and constant consistent support. If you live in the wrong area or country, there is no real assistance or education for neurotribes in many places, especially poor districts or states, and the condition of such neurotribe kids deteriorates into dreadfully. Good will or wishing kids well alone doesn't work. Giving a pat on the back doesn't work. Some neurotribe employees flamed out without real fellow employee ir company understanding and are forced out of jobs. The ones who had a strong family, community support and lots of the right kind of continuing education make it. But in many places, window dressing is all there is.
Was that wrong of me? After I hurt feelings, I thought I should reveal why I am so disappointed with the state of real educational resources for autism. Are you asking me to shut up and leave?p because I wasn't coherant? Ok. Probably guilty. I did not sleep well. Oops.
The book is about how society has been stumbling through the centuries trying to understand a set of mental symptoms and failing. It shows how terrible neurotribe members end up under many experimental programs and failed 'cures'. Currently, society is failing to help educate neurotribes members in many areas of the country, but when it succeeds it is fabulous. I wanted to share how I saw society fail like the author was talking about in 3/4ths of the book, until the last 20 years, and then it is spotty success.
Was that wrong of me? After I hurt feelings, I thought I should reveal why I am so disappointed with the state of real educational resources for autism. Are you asking me to shut up and leave?p because I wasn't coherant? Ok. Probably guilty. I did not sleep well. Oops.
The book is about how society has been stumbling through the centuries trying to understand a set of mental symptoms and failing. It shows how terrible neurotribe members end up under many experimental programs and failed 'cures'. Currently, society is failing to help educate neurotribes members in many areas of the country, but when it succeeds it is fabulous. I wanted to share how I saw society fail like the author was talking about in 3/4ths of the book, until the last 20 years, and then it is spotty success.