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[css-text-3] Ogham Space Mark needs to disappear at the end of a line #4893
I agree with the general idea of this change, but it seems to me that while trailing OGHAM SPACE MARK with white-space: normal | nowrap | pre-line should get removed, I don't quite see why we'd drop those with white-space:pre.
As for pre-wrap and break-spaces, I am less sure. Probably do as we do with other kinds of spaces: keep it for break-spaces, and keep it + hang it for pre-wrap, but I am not 100% sure.
Oversight in the wording, you're right that only collapsible marks should be removed.
After the edit, it now looks correct.
As for pre-wrap and break-spaces, I am less sure.
Never mind, this is already covered, since the Ogham Space Mark is part of unicode category Zs, and thus of "other spaces separators", so that's handled already.
Chatted with @kojiishi , there's basically several ways we can handle this in the details. Note that from a practical perspective, it really does not matter which one we choose, since mixing OSM and spaces isn't a real use case, so we should do the most efficient thing for implementations.
Include Ogham Space Mark among the white space characters trimmed at the end of a line (phase 2), but don't do anything with them when collapsing within the line (phase 1).
Trim Ogham Space Mark as a separate step after trimming white space characters at the end of a line.
Add Ogham Space Mark to the list of white space characters and collapse them just like spaces everywhere. (This is probably overkill, it makes the CSS document white space set different from CSS and HTML syntactic white space, and it likely has bad perf implications.)
The difference between 1 & 2 is what happens in the (very unnatural) sequence [Letter][Space][OSM][Space]. 1 would trim everything after the Letter. 2 would leave the inner space intact.
The CSS Working Group just discussed [css-text-3] Ogham Space Mark needs to disappear at the end of a line, and agreed to the following:
RESOLVED: Let editors choose the behavior and mark this at-risk
RESOLVED: Publish new WD of css-text-3
The full IRC log of that discussion
<dael> Topic: [css-text-3] Ogham Space Mark needs to disappear at the end of a line
<dael> github: https://github.com//issues/4893
<dael> fantasai: Issue is that there is an ogham space mark. Let me show a pic
<fantasai> https://omniglot.com/writing/ogham.htm
<dael> fantasai: Writte on the line. In paragraphs it's on the line. Character called Ogham space mark
<dael> fantasai: When breaking lines should disappear at end of line.
<dael> fantasai: Wanted to add a rule you should drop final Ogham space mark when trimming
<fantasai> https://github.com//issues/4893#issuecomment-613175286
<dael> fantasai: Question how to do that.
<dael> fantasai: Implication are about what happens when you mix spaces and Ogham space marks
<dael> fantasai: Not likely to happen so it's what's easiest to implementa and we should pick that
<dael> florian: Main alternatives is at end of line you get rid of any mix of reg and Ogham spaces. Or you do in phases. Remove spaces, any Ogham left, you remove those.
<dael> AmeliaBR: Any other characters we treat as trimmable spaces for line wrapping but aren't classified in collapsable?
<dael> fantasai: Not that I know of and this is the only one mentioned in the report
<dael> florian: Tabs have been converted to spaces at that point
<dael> fantasai: Other visible word spacer marks but they don't disappear at end of line
<dael> fantasai: There might be others
<dael> astearns: Any notion which is easiest to implement?
<dael> AmeliaBR: Any cases where the two algorithms have different effects?
<dael> fantasai: Different effects. You can see it in the comment linked above
<dael> florian: I suspect two pass is easier to implement b/c you let unicode do normal and than a second pass rather than hacking to know about Ogham spaces. But I'm not implementing
<dael> fantasai: If no one on the call knows, please comment on issue. If not I'll do whatever Koji says
<dael> fantasai: Spec wording is new and not entirely clear so I'll tighten up a bit so it's clear
<dael> astearns: Any opinions?
<dael> astearns: We could resolve to do what koji says and mark at risk?
<dael> fantasai: Yep. Just say up to editors
<florian> s/you let unicode do/you let ICU do/
<dael> astearns: Prop: Let editors choose the behavior and mark this at-risk
<dael> astearns: Obj?
<dael> RESOLVED: Let editors choose the behavior and mark this at-risk
<dael> astearns: Publication with this change?
<dael> fantasai: Let's just publish to get an updated draft. Some issues left. Can do new WD
<dael> astearns: Does this publication need resolution?
<dael> fantasai: Yes
<dael> astearns: Prop: Publish new WD of css-text-3
<dael> astearns: Not in CR?
<dael> fantasai: Not yet.
<dael> astearns: Should push to CR
<dael> fantasai: That's the goal. I've triaged. A couple of things need comments. There's the whole removing break transformation which we've drafted.
<dael> astearns: Objections?
<fantasai> main open issue for css-text-3 is https://github.com//issues/337#issuecomment-612686124
<dael> RESOLVED: Publish new WD of css-text-3
the user experience with editable content when white-space isn't pre-wrap (or break-spaces) is already quite weird anyway, so I am not too sure we should be worried about that in particular.
Activity
fantasai commentedon Apr 1, 2020
Checked in this rule in f047b93
Agenda+ to verify with CSSWG.
frivoal commentedon Apr 2, 2020
I agree with the general idea of this change, but it seems to me that while trailing OGHAM SPACE MARK with
white-space: normal | nowrap | pre-lineshould get removed, I don't quite see why we'd drop those withwhite-space:pre.As for pre-wrap and break-spaces, I am less sure. Probably do as we do with other kinds of spaces: keep it for
break-spaces, and keep it + hang it forpre-wrap, but I am not 100% sure.fantasai commentedon Apr 3, 2020
@frivoal Oversight in the wording, you're right that only collapsible marks should be removed.
[css-text-3] Only collapsible Ogham space mark is removed. #4893
fantasai commentedon Apr 3, 2020
@frivoal Feel free to adjust the wording if you've got a better suggestion. :)
frivoal commentedon Apr 8, 2020
After the edit, it now looks correct.
Never mind, this is already covered, since the Ogham Space Mark is part of unicode category Zs, and thus of "other spaces separators", so that's handled already.
TL;DR: we're good.
[css-text] Wording tweak on #4893
fantasai commentedon Apr 14, 2020
Chatted with @kojiishi , there's basically several ways we can handle this in the details. Note that from a practical perspective, it really does not matter which one we choose, since mixing OSM and spaces isn't a real use case, so we should do the most efficient thing for implementations.
The difference between 1 & 2 is what happens in the (very unnatural) sequence
[Letter][Space][OSM][Space]. 1 would trim everything after the Letter. 2 would leave the inner space intact.fantasai commentedon Apr 14, 2020
@kojiishi Also suggests marking this behavior at-risk for L3; I agree with that.
css-meeting-bot commentedon Apr 15, 2020
The CSS Working Group just discussed
[css-text-3] Ogham Space Mark needs to disappear at the end of a line, and agreed to the following:RESOLVED: Let editors choose the behavior and mark this at-riskRESOLVED: Publish new WD of css-text-3The full IRC log of that discussion
<dael> Topic: [css-text-3] Ogham Space Mark needs to disappear at the end of a line<dael> github: https://github.com//issues/4893
<dael> fantasai: Issue is that there is an ogham space mark. Let me show a pic
<fantasai> https://omniglot.com/writing/ogham.htm
<dael> fantasai: Writte on the line. In paragraphs it's on the line. Character called Ogham space mark
<dael> fantasai: When breaking lines should disappear at end of line.
<dael> fantasai: Wanted to add a rule you should drop final Ogham space mark when trimming
<fantasai> https://github.com//issues/4893#issuecomment-613175286
<dael> fantasai: Question how to do that.
<dael> fantasai: Implication are about what happens when you mix spaces and Ogham space marks
<dael> fantasai: Not likely to happen so it's what's easiest to implementa and we should pick that
<dael> florian: Main alternatives is at end of line you get rid of any mix of reg and Ogham spaces. Or you do in phases. Remove spaces, any Ogham left, you remove those.
<dael> AmeliaBR: Any other characters we treat as trimmable spaces for line wrapping but aren't classified in collapsable?
<dael> fantasai: Not that I know of and this is the only one mentioned in the report
<dael> florian: Tabs have been converted to spaces at that point
<dael> fantasai: Other visible word spacer marks but they don't disappear at end of line
<dael> fantasai: There might be others
<dael> astearns: Any notion which is easiest to implement?
<dael> AmeliaBR: Any cases where the two algorithms have different effects?
<dael> fantasai: Different effects. You can see it in the comment linked above
<dael> florian: I suspect two pass is easier to implement b/c you let unicode do normal and than a second pass rather than hacking to know about Ogham spaces. But I'm not implementing
<dael> fantasai: If no one on the call knows, please comment on issue. If not I'll do whatever Koji says
<dael> fantasai: Spec wording is new and not entirely clear so I'll tighten up a bit so it's clear
<dael> astearns: Any opinions?
<dael> astearns: We could resolve to do what koji says and mark at risk?
<dael> fantasai: Yep. Just say up to editors
<florian> s/you let unicode do/you let ICU do/
<dael> astearns: Prop: Let editors choose the behavior and mark this at-risk
<dael> astearns: Obj?
<dael> RESOLVED: Let editors choose the behavior and mark this at-risk
<dael> astearns: Publication with this change?
<dael> fantasai: Let's just publish to get an updated draft. Some issues left. Can do new WD
<dael> astearns: Does this publication need resolution?
<dael> fantasai: Yes
<dael> astearns: Prop: Publish new WD of css-text-3
<dael> astearns: Not in CR?
<dael> fantasai: Not yet.
<dael> astearns: Should push to CR
<dael> fantasai: That's the goal. I've triaged. A couple of things need comments. There's the whole removing break transformation which we've drafted.
<dael> astearns: Objections?
<fantasai> main open issue for css-text-3 is https://github.com//issues/337#issuecomment-612686124
<dael> RESOLVED: Publish new WD of css-text-3
2 remaining items
frivoal commentedon May 4, 2020
the user experience with editable content when white-space isn't pre-wrap (or break-spaces) is already quite weird anyway, so I am not too sure we should be worried about that in particular.
[css-text-3] Only collapsible Ogham space mark is removed. w3c#4893
[css-text] Wording tweak on w3c#4893
[css-text-3] Mark Ogham space mark trimming as at-risk, tweak wording…
tests for trailing ogham spaces
tests for trailing ogham spaces
tests for trailing ogham spaces (#25461)