BAB Classic: Nice Job, Hank! Bride of Ultron Part 4

This post was originally published on 16 August 2010.

Avengers #171 (May 1978)
"...Where Angels Fear to Tread!"
Jim Shooter-George Perez/Pablo Marcos

Doug: The End, kids! Yep, after our Hank Pym lovefest this month, we put the wraps on today with part four of the Bride of Ultron arc. It's been a fun romp, with wonderful storytelling from the words and pictures points-of-view. However, might this last installment leave us feeling a bit flat? Let's see...

Doug: If you recall, when last we saw our heroes, Cap and Iron Man had arrived on the scene to stop the ganging up of Wonder Man, YJ and the Wasp, Wanda and the Vision, Thor, and the Beast on the person of Ultron's chosen wife -- the metal construct that we'll learn in this issue is to be called "Jocasta". As Jocasta seemed intent on moving out and away from Avenger's Mansion, it was Cap's and IM's opinion that she would lead the team to their ultimate goal -- a final showdown with Ultron! We pick up the trail mere moments after the conclusion of ish #170.

Doug: What did you think of the first several pages of this story? I'll say one thing for Shooter -- he wasn't afraid to be unconventional. I guess my expectations when I first read this, and again on the re-read, would be to see a short chase scene and then WHAM! All-out super-heroing! But instead, we get an odd street scene with the good guys interacting with New York's general public. In order, we see the Beast beseiged by several women who want a piece of him (literally; and this would be a plotline for some time to come), Wonder Man surprisingly finding the cojones to stand up to and criticize Captain America, Wanda receive an offer to model (because you know, buxom was "in"), and the crowd react to Wanda's "my love" comment to the Vision. Now all of this is good stuff, and we've said a hundred times before that this sort of writing is part of what set Marvel and DC apart in the Silver and Bronze Ages, but it was just surprisingly somewhat out-of-context!

Karen: It was an interesting choice for Shooter to open this story the way he did. That being said though, I can recall plenty of other times where Marvel heroes interacted with "normal folks". Although this did seem to extend quite a few pages. We even get the store clerk thinking about her co-worker getting fired and she getting promoted! Now that was a bit much. I did enjoy Thor's remark to the Beast: "Thy wenching is ill-timed!"Doug: And then we head back into the dept. store from whence had come the lady with the modeling offer. Seems a customer had been left in the dressing room when the Avengers had kicked up a commotion. And in one of the first gratuitous a$$ shots that I can recall (I'm sure there had been some fine Black Widow moments in the pages of Daredevil before this), we are reacquainted with Carol Danvers. Is it just me, or was there really no point to that camera angle used by Perez?

Karen: Oh, I think we know what that camera angle was about!

Doug: So, the Avengers are tracking Jocasta, who's been picked up by a nun. A nun! Yep, Sister Eucalypta of the Order of Qantas. I made that last part up. Koala bear reference, no? Anyway, while the good guys close in, we see Wonder Man suddenly lose his cojones as he questions Ms. Marvel (of course Carol was going to factor into the story with more than just her curvy cheeks) on how she just jumps into a fight. I thought Wondy's self-doubting pity-party, too, was an odd storyline, but they managed to milk it for the better part of two years and I guess it kept things from seeming status quo. Finally, the team arrives at their destination -- a convent!

Karen: Wonder Man's discomfort around Ms. Marvel was another nice touch. Shooter really seemed to enjoy writing Wonder Man -probably because he was not an established character, so he was free to do whatever he wanted with him. At the time I was annoyed that he got so much of the spotlight, but now I can look back and see that Shooter was giving us another angle on superheroing -that of a scared hero!
Karen: There was also the interaction between Jan and Ms. Marvel, with Jan welcoming another "girl" to the group, and Ms. Marvel saying she stopped being a girl some time back. It wasn't really a harsh comment but it did point out some differences in the characters -and let's not forget, Ms. Marvel was being touted back then as Marvel's 'liberated' female hero.Doug: In two of the better scenes in Avengerdom of this era, we see the Beast address Sister Eucalypta in Latin, and Thor and Wanda muse on an Asgardian's place in a Catholic center of teaching and worship. Great stuff! And then... Wanda vanishes! But wait -- is this the same thing that's happened to the Two-Gun Kid and Quicksilver, which we saw earlier? Hmmm...
Doug: Coming to the end of the line, the team enters a chamber to stand face-to-face with Ultron. I'll tell you -- there are more words on this one page than are in some entire 21-page comic books of today! And it worked! It was exposition that moved the story, and it was not unbelievable that all of that could have been said in that single setting. Lord, I miss comics! Ultron doesn't waste too much time here -- he's told everyone what his goals are (basically to kill everyone starting with the Pyms), so it's encephalo-beam time!
Karen: I thought Ultron had a nice speech here:" I am your son! Do you not yet know the mind of your sole offspring? My desires are the same as ever! I want your death...I want your wife...and then...I want the world!" Well, that's pretty exact!
Doug: Ah, but daddy-Hank didn't come unprepared. The Avengers are now wearing shields inside their masks and helmets to ward off that specific attack. One of the pay-offs in this issue is that Simon finally snaps out of his scaredy-cat mode and takes it to Ultron, hard. Another pay-off is seeing Wanda assert herself. Early in the story she even suggested to Iron Man to brief Ms. Marvel on the goings-on. I know that seems very minor, but reflecting back to the days when she and Jan had to be told when and how to use their powers, it was noticeable. In this story's climax, it's Wanda (not Thor or Iron Man) who wins the battle. She was aggressive, confident, and very powerful, and I was happy to see her in the limelight.

Karen: Shooter's depiction of Wanda really picked up from the work Englehart had done previously, making her into her own person. Unfortunately, his Wasp was just as annoying as ever! Roger Stern managed to make her more likeable, although some would argue that he completely changed her personality.

Doug: However, I must declare that the story ended somewhat abruptly for such a build-up. I think part of the problem with Ultron is that he's too powerful. He just can't be beaten unless he's undone. Now maybe hex power is not playing fairly, but I would have liked to have seen some more scrapping, maybe Wonder Man go Round Two with Ultron. It was a nice bit of foreshadowing to see Jocasta turn on her creator (much as the Vision had a decade earlier) and then disappear right away (along with Cap). We'd of course see her ally with the Avengers later.

Karen: Yes, Jocasta turning on Ultron was nice, and made sense, since her mind was based on Jan's. While Hank has had to deal with his creation of Ultron and all the woe that has brought, Ultron has had his share of failures too, as both his 'son' and 'wife' have turned against him. Of course, Kurt Busiek brilliantly tied all this together in Avengers volume 3 when he revealed that Ultron's brain patterns were based on Hank's! Like father, like son...

Karen: I do think that Ultron's adamantium body did tend to overshadow his emotional impact on the team. He was just too hard to beat, and it seemed like it always came down to Wanda and her hex powers. Like most really good villains, Ultron should be used sparingly -like every three or four years.
Doug: So, overall a true classic. I don't have any major complaints. I felt that the team grew during Shooter's run, and he introduced some good elements, specifically the watchdogging of Agent Gyrich. I do wish, though, as we said earlier that there had been a resolution to Hank's breakdown in #'s 161-162. That dangling plot thread seems unforgiveable.

BAB Classic: Nice Job, Hank! Bride of Ultron Part 3

This post was originally published on 13 August 2010.

Avengers #170 (April 1978)
"...Though Hell Should Bar the Way!"
George Perez/Jim Shooter-Perez/Pablo Marcos

Doug: Greetings, Armadillos, and welcome back to the last two installments in our very-fun look at the Bride of Ultron storyline. You'll notice that George Perez gets a co-plotter credit for this story, and I think that shows actually in the artwork. I'm not privy to whether or not young George actually did any of the scripting, but I think it's obvious that Pablo Marcos had a greater hand in the art chores than he'd had back in the first two parts, Avengers 161 and 162.

Karen: I've read some interviews where Perez said that Shooter was not as familiar with the Marvel characters and that he (Perez) often helped by filling in background that Shooter was missing. Did you also notice that Shooter was the colorist on this issue?

Doug: I did not notice that! But there it is... Hey, I also saw that Terry Austin was the inker on the very nice cover art! Well, I can sum up this issue with one word: characterization. If Perez is the right man for the art, then Shooter is the master of the group dynamic. From the Legion to the Avengers, each character has their own mannerisms, voice, and he advances what becomes their backstory. This one starts off with a great deal of tension, as Shooter writes a very sullen, verbally aggressive Captain America. In the opening scene, as Cap works through some personal frustrations, we see the Beast in full character, and a side of Iron Man that's a bit softer than usual. Perez's lay-outs are top notch, as even though the entire scene is conversation there remain the elements of emotion and action. Perfect -- these guys got done in 3-4 pages what today's writers/artists do in an entire book!

Karen: Shooter was nothing if not efficient. He gets across his ideas easily and quickly. At this point in Avengers he was doing some things we hadn't really seen before, like having an insecure Cap.

Doug: No, you're right -- you'd have to go back to the Kooky Quartet to see a Steve Rogers brooding like he is here.

Karen: Yet it all worked. I especially liked the exchange between Cap and Iron Man, as these two friends had been really starting to go after one another. They resolve their issues here and Iron Man almost tells Cap that he's Stark, but Cap stops him before he can. But heck, I kind of figured he already knew.

Doug: There's also quite a bit of foreshadowing in this issue. You know, it's funny: This little four-parter has gone down in Avengers history as one of the must-reads, yet the next two scenes set-up what will become an epic on par with the Celestial Madonna or the Kree/Skrull War. Wanda gets a phone call (my, how times have changed technologically!) from Hawkeye, who is in Colorado. He tells her that the Two-Gun Kid has vanished, teleported away. Hawk's scoured the area, to no avail. When Wanda offers to come out to assist, Clint informs her that he will instead come to NY to take advantage of Tony Stark's technology. Right after, we're taken to the Hidden Refuge to drop in on Quicksilver. As he broods ('cause that's just what he does) and Crystal comes out to speak to him, he too disappears. Curiouser and curiouser... Oh, and let's not forget young Vance Astro, being guarded by his future-fellows, the Guardians of the Galaxy!

Karen: I know a lot of people love the Korvac Saga, but honestly, I thought it was fairly weak compared to the previous Avengers sagas. It did bring every Avenger imaginable -and then some -all in one place though.

Doug: I enjoyed "Korvac" because of the slow build-up, and as you said the vast array of characters involved. Meanwhile, back at the mansion a couple of delivery guys, working on the request and order of Hank Pym, bring the body of Ultron's bride to the laboratory. Even this scene has some nice, believable dialogue as the crate is hauled through the halls and into Hank's lab. However, when one of the men makes a crack about the robot, she seemingly responds by awakening! Right away, she remarks that it's Ultron who has awakened her, and she must go to him.

Doug: It's really eerie, because as the robot speaks the Avengers recognize that it's with Jan's voice that she communicates! While everyone had assumed that the life-transfer had been totally reversed back in issue #162, apparently it had not. Different Avengers attempt to subdue the robot, first and foremost the Vision. He is, in no uncertain terms, rebuffed. I found this to be an interesting scene, as it's apparent that Ultron took specific care to thwart an attack by this one Avenger. The robot throws off all attacks, and as she walks the Avengers plot another attempt at a takedown.

Karen: Both Jan and Hank are startled when the robot speaks, but the Vision ain't buying it. I love how he immediately attacks, saying that Ultron is playing a trick on them. The scene where Vizh is blasted away is fantastic. Ultron and his son still have a lot of issues to work out!

Karen: As the Avengers engage our metallic maiden, she displays a variety of powers, and is quite formidable. Although Hank and Jan are having a hard time engaging her, purely from a psychological standpoint.
Doug: Thor arrives, and it's interesting here that the team finds it quite odd that Thor speaks like he's been gone for quite some time, when in reality he had not. I almost had a Sentry-moment -- thought the dude was playing some sort of weird Bendis-game on me! Anyway, Thor slings Mjolnir at the robot, only to have it parried by Cap's shield. He and Iron Man arrive just in time to inform the team that no one is to impede the robot's progress, as she will most certainly lead them to a final showdown against... Ultron!

BAB Classic: Nice Job, Hank! Bride of Ultron Part 2

This post was originally published on 9 August 2010.

Avengers #162 (August 1977)
"The Bride of Ultron!"
Jim Shooter-George Perez/Pablo Marcos

Doug: Welcome back to our second installment of the "Bride of Ultron" arc. As Avengers #161 was actually chapter one of a four-part story spread over almost a year, #162 was a first “conclusion”. Ultron was revealed as the true villain last issue, having somehow mind-wiped Hank Pym and placed his memories well before he and Jan were married, and before the time when Hank had created Ultron. In this issue, we find that Ultron’s goal is to sap the life essence from Jan and instill it into his cybernetic bride (later to be known as Jocasta).

Karen: Yes, this story really brought on the full meaning of Ultron's Oedipus Complex, as he now not only tried to kill his "father", but also marry his "mother". Even Ultron creator Roy Thomas had not gone that far before.

Doug: Thor somehow got the distress signal that Cap had sent last ish, and arrives at the Mansion to see Cap, Wanda, Vision, and the Beast being hauled out on stretchers. It's interesting that everyone in the scene remarks that they've died, yet none of them have the sheet pulled up over the face. Hmmm... Anyway, Thor heads into the Mansion to find Iron Man recharging, and Wonder Man and the Panther trying to figure out just what the heck happened. Another call goes out to Hawkeye, but to no avail.

Karen: The grim nature of the situation is well-expressed here. As Panther and Thor talk about facing Ultron, they are truly avengers, hoping to destroy the one who has killed their comrades. They're in for the fight of their lives, and they may not come out alive.

Karen: Another interesting scene comes when Wonder Man questions whether Hawkeye is "worth all this grief." A stern Thor responds, "When thou hast proven thyself a thousandfold thou mayest question the "worth" of Hawkeye, my friend! I will disregard thy careless remark -this time!" This was a good example of Thor's tremendous respect for his mortal comrades. Shooter was spot on with this characterization.

Doug: In Ultron's laboratory, Perez does a great multi-panel layout showing Jan hooked up to a metal construct of a female. Ant-Man has been freed from captivity and is being cajoled into helping Ultron save the life of Janet van Dyne. Hank goes for the ruse, and begins a process that actually drains the life essence from Jan and into the robot. As this goes on, Shooter focuses in on each of the Avengers individually with some nice characterization, as they each come to realize what Ultron may be up to. As the process in the lab continues, we spy a couple of ants who hook up with some buddies and make their way to Avengers Mansion and spell out "STARKLI" on the floor.

Doug: Thor and Wonder Man must be kinda dense, because they don't get it. Iron Man and T'Challa of course put it all together immediately and the team begins to converge on Ultron's hideout. Another battle royale ensues, and there are some really great scenes. Of note are the entrances of each of the good guys (Thor's is the best), Iron Man's selflessness (whoa!) in taking a bolt meant for Thor, and Ultron shrugging off a two-pronged attack from Thor and Wonder Man. I really think, when you look at this line-up, that it shows just how strong Ultron is. And in the end, it's not brute force but a questionable headgame that does him in.

Karen: As the four Avengers head off to face Ultron, Thor gives out a battle cry, declaring that "This night we shall avenge our slain comrades, or taste death's bitter cup ourselves!" This rattles Wonder Man, who at this time was still struggling with his fear of dying again. I always felt that Wondy's fear was a great angle to take. Here's this guy who is damn near as tough and strong as Thor, yet he's paralyzed with fear when he goes into battle. It was different and made things interesting.

Karen: Let's talk a bit about the 'headgame' you refer to Doug. I felt this was another great bit of character work by Shooter, highlighting the differences in our Avengers. Iron Man realizes that they're getting nowhere in a physical fight with Ultron. He takes a gamble -and threatens to destroy Jocasta. It backs Ultron off, and he makes a swift retreat. But the Panther questions Iron Man's tactics. "I can not argue with success and yet your ploy with the girl...there is little honor in a victory that is won by-" Iron Man interrupts, "Stow it, Panther! Like you said, it worked!" But even Stark wonders if he would have gone through with it. I think this might have been one of the first times -if not the first -where Iron Man's "whatever means necessary" attitude was expressed.

Doug: Ultron is ultimately defeated, but at a cost of Hank’s permanent sanity. As the story winds down, and Hank is in custody, he screams out, “Ultron will be back to free me – and then we’ll crush you! That includes you, Janet! Now that they’ve somehow managed to make you whole again, your loyalties are apparently with them! How could I have ever thought I loved you (Avengers 162, page 31)?” In comfort, Iron Man says, “It…seems he’s gone totally mad, now – but don’t worry, Jan. After we study Ultron’s equipment, we may be able to restore his mind!” “Aye, ‘tis possible,” agreed Thor.
Doug: A pretty depressing way to leave a reader hanging, don’t you think? I'd like to follow up with some thoughts from my Hank Pym essay, mentioned last time. Frankly, I was crushed at this new development in the Pyms’ lives. How could Hank have let himself get to the point where he could speak to Jan that way? It was warming to see the other Avengers embrace and care for Jan in her time of need; that same picture, however, made me think of Hank as all alone and somewhat hopeless. Yes, the team had said they’d try to help him, but it seemed to me lines had been drawn; whilst one may forgive, can they ever truly forget? What Hank said – even if they could restore his mind, he’d said those words. Nothing could change that. I was eager to see how events would unfold over the next several stories. I assumed Hank and Jan would be missing for several issues, much as they had after the events of Avengers #’s 139-140. After a seeming fill-in in #163, where Iron Man did battle with the Champions and Typhon (years later, I’d see this for the marketing gimmick that it was – an attempt to build up sagging sales on a title Marvel would have liked to save), the team was back in action in #164 against a revised line-up of baddies calling themselves the Lethal Legion -- this was the opening chapter of the Count Nefaria arc that we reviewed last year.

Doug: The opening scene showed Simon Williams going through tests under the supervision of Tony Stark, the Black Panther, the Beast and… Yellowjacket?? After I had read the issue, I went back to look for clues to Hank’s sudden sanity. None. When the next issue came out, same thing. And again, and again – and no hint whatsoever as to how Hank had gotten back up and running. Nada. When #170 arrived and I saw that the Bride of Ultron story was apparently being continued, I thought surely Hank’s mental state would be addressed. Even when he was brought face-to-face with the robot for whom Jan’s life force was intended, he remained calm, almost as analytical as the Vision might have been. And that was that. The story, which was very good – I certainly don’t mean to diminish its wonderment and lasting greatness – ended and Hank was just status quo.

Karen: Yes, it does seem pretty odd that we never saw Hank regaining his sanity -it just seemed to happen off-panel. If I could venture a guess, I might suspect that it had something to do with the fact that Shooter had spent most of his career at DC, where "one and done" stories had been the norm. Perhaps he didn't feel he needed to show how Hank was restored -the reader would just have to assume he was. Not very satisfying, I agree.

BAB Classic: Nice Job, Hank! Bride of Ultron Part 1

This post was originally published on 6 August 2010.

Avengers #161 (July 1977)
"Beware the Ant-Man!"
Jim Shooter-George Perez/Pablo Marcos

Doug: Today begins a 4-part series that I can only call "one of my all-time favorites"; to call it anything less would be a lie. It's been long known by anyone I've ever discussed comics with that the Avengers are my favorite team, and surely somewhere in that conversation it's come up that if John Buscema is my #1 Avengers artist, then George Perez is #1A. Toss in a script by Jim Shooter, a long-ago superstar with another favorite title of mine, the Legion of Super-Heroes, and the formula for a winner is all here.
Doug: I am going to mix into these reviews some thoughts from my essay on Hank Pym, scheduled to appear in Assembled, Volume 3. To begin, the splash page by George Perez showed Ant-Man lurking in a ventilation shaft while Cap, Iron Man, Vision, Wonder Man, and Wanda enter the room. Making himself known via the use of a magnifying glass, Ant-Man addressed the group. It doesn’t take any time at all for us to know that Hank is not right. Seeing him like this, I felt that the potential seemed great for a mental breakdown along the lines of that suffered through Avengers #59-60 – and that is indeed what came to pass.

Doug: Hank was enraged that the Avengers were not present for their “first official meeting” – no Hulk, no Thor, and Iron Man not in his old, clunky yellow armor. Referring to Wanda as “the chick in the swimsuit” and Cap as a “two-bit imposter”, Hank asked for answers and when receiving only stunned silence launched a one-man (and mega-ant) attack against his friends. As the Beast and the Black Panther entered the fray, Hank single-handedly dismantled the team in a great scene by Perez that evoked the equally great cover. During the fracas, Hank's speech was unlike anything we’d seen from him. In response to the Vision’s suggestion that Hank is somehow putting them on, Ant-Man snapped: “Back off, Red Puss! And you can drop the weird hollow voice bit! Special effects don’t impress me!” It’s only when the Wasp suddenly appears, startling Hank and attacking him with her stings, that he is subdued. After containing him and restoring him to his normal height, Jan related the recent backstory of their personal lives, as she said, “It’s been…building for a long time…and I’m afraid his mind…has finally snapped.”

Karen: It's pretty cool to see the oft-denigrated Ant-Man wiping the floor with the Avengers! Obviously, he had the advantage, seeing as how his pals were both stunned by his actions, and unwilling to actually hurt him. Even so, he shows that he can be more effective than I think most of us ever considered.

Doug: Jan took the team back to shortly after she and Hank were married. She mentioned the accident that led to Hank taking the Yellowjacket identity and that subsequent to that his lab work began to go awry. Hank had begun to respond with rage and violence, often destroying machinery and other resources. Jan said that in days past it was always she who went to Hank for strength and support, but during this period their roles reversed. Jan mentioned that she had suggested therapy but that Hank would never have agreed to it; she went instead and was told to try to bring Hank back to life as it had existed before he had become YJ. She stated that things had been going well, and that she was excited when he agreed (seen in Avengers #151) to join her back on the team. But, as they flew back to the lab mere days before this, Hank sped away from her. And then the attack in the guise of Ant-Man…

Karen: I know Jim Shooter wanted to turn a Marvel hero into a villain, and eventually did that with Hank. Was he already planning that here? He planted the seeds certainly, with Jan's story about how Hank was often violent and unhappy. I mean, we saw some dissatisfaction on his part over the years, but I never got the feeling prior to this that he was capable of such rage. It also seems like Jan does a bit of blaming herself for Hank's issues here, and that would be magnified later.

Doug: The Avengers decide that Hank needs to be subjected to the "subliminal recall-inducer". Lord, if that isn't straight out of the Batman TV show!! Anyway, they put him under this old-fashioned hair dryer doohickey and... nothing. So, Wanda decides that maybe more of his close friends might bring him back. Cap attempts to contact Thor, Quicksilver, and Hawkeye, but no dice. We do get to see Hawk and Two-Gun living the dream out on a dude ranch, and that's a fun interlude.

Karen: That device was first seen back in issue 99, when it was used on Hercules. So you can blame Roy Thomas if it seems hokey!

Doug: Back in New York, the Beast is asked to drive Jan to her house to pick up some things. Shooter uses this little vignette as an opportunity to expand Hank's character, and Jan's too. It's a really nice scene. But, when Jan enters the house, she's struck down by an intruder who in turn takes out the Beast. Hank manages to make it back to Avengers Mansion in time to announce the arrival of Ultron! Last seen in Fantastic Four #150 at the wedding of Crystal and Quicksilver, Ultron was reconstructed and apparently made meaner than ever. He begins to knock down Avengers in a cool, calculated manner. No one staggers him, until Wanda begins to mess with his computer mind. Even that is temporary. Iron Man is drained of energy, the Vision goes down early, Wonder Man (who Ultron had done homework on) is taken out, and then the less-powerful members fall; most are taken out by Ultron's encephalo ray, a deadly neuro-neutralizing beam.

Karen: Great stuff in this fight sequence. I don't know if Ultron had ever seemed so menacing before. We get more of Wonder Man's fears,and Wanda's assertiveness which seems to have carried over from the Englehart era.

Doug: I'm certain some among our faithful throngs of readers are just dying for the scheduled BAB rip-job on Pablo Marcos' inks. Well, from my perspective Mr. Marcos did a pretty bang-up job here. As was stated in our first Open Forum, perhaps an inker's main job is to enhance a bad penciller and to stay out of the way of a good penciller. I feel Marcos does the latter here. My complaints earlier about harsh faces, muddy panels, etc. just aren't found.

Karen: I have to agree with you Doug: I have no complaints about the inking here. Perez' art comes through and looks as slick and detailed as I would expect. It's a fantastic looking issue.

Doug: The story ends when Hank, overwhelmed at the events of his day, decides to lash out at Ultron. Ultron seems surprised, but then calmly holds a finger toward the small hero, sucking him into a chamber as a prisoner. In a brilliant bit of foreshadowing, Ultron gloats over the defeated Ant-Man, ending his comments with a single word -- "father". The scene fades to black as the robot exits the mansion, only to return to light as Jarvis enters the room -- to a fabulous last-panel by Perez.

Discuss: Robots

 

Avengers: Age of Ultron -- FULLY SPOILED!!

NOTE: If you have not seen the film and want to stay clean on all the details, you'd best exit these premises now. Because what we do around here after a week's courtesy is let it all hang out!

Doug: Today Karen and I will lead off with our own thoughts on the latest installment in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and then we fully expect the comments section to fill up with everyone else's opinions as well. Should be fun! To kick it off, we'll let you hack our own personal email accounts, as we discussed the film this past Monday and beyond. I viewed a 4:00 pm showing on May 4, and we began hashing out the details a few hours afterward. Here goes, edited for conversational purposes --

Doug: Wow. I'll start with that.

Doug: I'm not sure how anyone is thinking Age of Ultron was not as good as the first one. First off, there was no set up in this one, no characters-meeting-each-other as in the first. Secondly, there's now an assumption on the part of the film makers that those coming to these things have seen the previous pictures. So no backstory on Baron Strucker or the Maximoff twins. It was assumed that everyone knows what the scepter is, and has a working knowledge of the Infinity Stones. All of that together allowed the creators to move characterization forward with no obligations.

Doug: I thought Hawkeye was obviously very improved from the first film, even though he's not "our" Hawkeye. It was nice that his wife (totally did not see that one coming) even called him that. We got more on the Black Widow - the scene where she tells Banner about the final initiation to become a Russian assassin was chilling. Banner himself was well-played.

Karen: I actually liked Hawkeye this time around, although I'm not all that fond of Jeremy Renner. Hawkeye is not much like the comic version, but at least he had personality. He was obviously the 'window' character or normal guy. I wondered if he might get killed off after we saw his family.

Doug: I know -- I was waiting for some carnage if and when Ultron located our hiding heroes. And Captain America could not be better. The stunts are incredible, and Chris Evans nails his fighting will. Perfect. Just perfect. Likewise, Robert Downey continues to excel as Iron Man. Really, I have no complaints about the casting. I thought it was a great touch that Wanda and Pietro spoke with Eastern European accents. But Cap won the day in this film as the Hulk had in the first one.

Karen: I agree with you about Cap -it's hard to believe I ever had doubts that Chris Evans could play this role. He embodies it so well. He carries the authority, the seriousness, the play-calling. Yet he also has humor. He and Downey work well together. I like that Cap's vision (as I read it) was that essentially, his fears came true, and he's still here -lonely maybe, but here. And by seeing Stark's vision -his fear of another invasion, his feeling that he should be doing something to protect the world, and his friends, we have reason to understand his behavior. He's carrying an awful lot of weight on his shoulders. As was pointed out in the film, he doesn't have to carry it alone. I'm not sure he really gets it though. I was surprised how the Big Three were all buddy-buddy again at the end. Stark was really responsible for everything, via Ultron. I wonder if this will come up again, perhaps in Civil War?

Doug: If I have a criticism, it's that the reaction to Stark and his machinations was odd. At first we get Banner trying to talk him out of it, then we get Thor grabbing him by the throat, then a little general disgust from the team. But you're right - by the end it seems like "Oh well, all's well that ends well!" And... can't remember which character, but someone had a great line about the dichotomy in Stark's personality.

Karen: Was it Wanda's comment about Ultron not knowing the difference between saving the world and destroying it, and where did that come from (Stark)?

Doug: That's it! I thought that whole point was a nice way to tie a bow on what began as Stark's mission in the first Iron Man picture and that the fall-out was still being felt here in what is probably a few years later.

Karen: I would have liked to have seen Hulk interact with his team-mates more (other than Widow). Also, he never spoke at all. Dang!

Doug: Yes, I've grown a little impatient with the movie Hulk being all-berserker, all-the-time. I miss the Bronze Age Hulk. What did you think of the big Hulk-Hulkbuster battle, when the under-construction building came tumbling down? Two things immediately crossed my mind: a) 9-11 is still a raw nerve, and that scene was way too close, as was some of the imagery in Man of Steel, and b) speaking of Man of Steel, I thought it was a bit of a dig at that film when Iron Man checked his bio-sensors to determine that there were no humans in that structure before he carried out his plot. Touche`, DC!

Karen: I thought that through-out the film, it was stressed that the Avengers were trying to protect and save people, and while I think this is exactly what super-heroes should be doing, I wondered if some of this was a dig at Man of Steel. You're not the first person to mention 9-11 but honestly, I didn't think about that while watching it -I just thought that it seemed highly unlikely that a building coming down, even an unoccupied one, wouldn't cause deaths, in a busy city block. But, after seeing it twice, it's clear that Iron Man was trying to get Hulk out of the city -he just wouldn't cooperate. I have to say, this sequence did have a couple of great laughs. The rapid-fire punching and "go to sleep go to sleep go to sleep" was hilarious, as was the part where Iron Man whacks Hulk with the elevator and Hulk then spits out a tooth and gives Iron Man an angry look, which causes Stark to meekly say, "I'm sorry."

Doug: Yes, those were great moments. For the Hulk, that was about it, though, as he was not the major player at the end of the film that I'd wondered if he'd be. But there's just no way Ultron would have stood that abuse for very long, so the Hulk was conveniently away from the main fracas.

Doug: The Vision -- wow. Give me more. Please.

Karen: Is it possible that Marvel has given Adam Warlock's 'role' to the Vision? The Vision basically comes out of a "cocoon," has an infinity gem on his forehead, and when asked, proclaims that he is on the side of life, very much as Warlock was a champion of life.  So with the Vision around, what point would there be in introducing Warlock now -or at least, the version of Warlock that we all know? Why have two characters that seem to serve the same narrative purpose?

Karen: That said, I loved the Vision, was immensely pleased with what they did with him, and thought Paul Bettany did a fantastic job. The conversation between he and Ultron at the very end -"I think you missed that" - was just perfect.

Doug: Two things I would suggest in favor of Warlock: if the Vision is going to be a stand-in, then why have we seen the so-obvious-it's Warlock's-cocoon in two scenes with the Collector? Also, rumors were running rampant that they were going to make Warlock be Peter Quill's long lost father. Being stuck in a cocoon would certainly qualify one for being "long lost". Just my thoughts.

Karen: I know, they might still have Warlock. But the cocoon in GotG was never confirmed as Warlock's, and the director of GotG II (James Gunn, same guy who directed the first one) has said Warlock will not be in it , although that could be misdirection. However, it seems unlikely that they would have two guys who are artificially constructed men running around with infinity gems on their heads. Unless you make Warlock just an alien, and remove the soul gem from his head. But if they start tampering with his origin too much, then is he really Warlock? Another reason I think this Vision is "more" than just our old android: he lifted Thor's hammer! Come on! He must be meant for great things -like facing Thanos perhaps?

Doug: I thought the contest to lift Mjolnir was a great way to tie the film together. Did you notice Thor's face when Cap got it to ever-so-slightly budge? And I really liked the banter between Thor and the Vision on the weight distribution of the hammer. Classic stuff.

Karen: The hammer lifting challenge was a nice teambuilding moment. Of all of them, Cap is the only one who should be able to lift it (and did in the comics). I liked that shot of Thor and Vision standing on the balcony speaking - the two of them are so different from the rest of the team. With the gem, this Vision is probably far more powerful than the comic version, putting him on Thor's level or even greater, I think.

Doug: Additionally, we are missing "one for the thumb", so to speak. Am I missing an Infinity Gem, because I think I am:

Tesseract

Gem from the scepter, now possessed by the Vision

Aether

The stone from GotG

Doug: Doesn't that leave one more? All of that is not to say that you have a bad argument, and our readers may like that theory.

Karen: Your list is correct as I recall. I'm not sure how many gems they plan to have in the films. In the comics there were six. I believe the Collector names them all in GotG but I'd have to go back and watch that to be sure. But so far I think we have only seen four, and Thor sees four in his vision. Actually, it seems sort of odd that Thanos gave Loki that scepter that had a gem in it. Didn't he know the gem was there? Why give it away? I guess he expected Loki to win and he would get the scepter (and stone) back.

Doug: Ultron was certainly different than I'd anticipated, but it worked for me after just a little while. I liked his size and ruthlessness. His ability to fly was an added wrinkle of sinister proportions. I thought his plan was a good one. Hey, did you think it might end in the scene from Avengers #159 when Thor, Wonder Man, Iron Man, and the Vision catch the falling city that Graviton had lifted? I wasn't disappointed in this outcome, but I was wondering.

Karen: I had some difficulty with Spader's portrayal -a little too goofy for me at times. Overall it was quite good but there were times I was thinking of Spader and not Ultron. I do wish they had used HB's suggestion of having Stark's personality integrated into Ultron. I did like when he freaked out about Klaw saying "You're one of Stark's" - a little close to the bone.

Doug: It took me awhile to get used to the fact that Ultron has a malleable mouth. That he could make facial expressions seemed weird.

Karen: Yes, that kind of threw me too -it looked cartoonish at times. I did wonder if the way he looked when he first met the twins was a call-out to his first appearance as "The Crimson Cowl" -he was draped with that reddish scarf or whatever it was. That scene really seemed odd -there was no set up for it, the twins just show up in the church. I felt that there had been some heavy editing there for sure, and in a few other spots. We know that about an hour was chopped out, and I guess Thor's visions were also cut back heavily -I heard an interview with Joss Whedon who said that originally Thor contacted the Norns but they had to delete almost all of that.

Doug: Apparently Loki was to have been in that scene, but Heimdall ended up standing in -- they couldn't get Tom Hiddleston when they needed him for filming but Idris Elba was available (or some such thing). I, too, noticed the Crimson Cowl reference, which was also somewhat appropriate as it occurred just after Ultron usurped the JARVIS software -- remember, Jarvis was a dupe for Ultron in the mad robot's first appearance!

Doug: The church scene overall seemed more appropriate for a first look at Dr. Doom than it did for Ultron.

Karen: Biggest geeky moment for me was seeing Thor, Vision, and Iron Man all blast Ultron together. That was just so comic booky! 

Doug: Awesome to see the Helicarrier back. Fury had a larger role -- he made a nice comeback as well.

Karen: Where the heck was Fury hiding a helicarrier? It was fun seeing War Machine in action there but I would've liked to see Falcon too.

Doug: I also thought the Falcon would be in that scene. And I guess I was surprised that we didn't get even a brief look or mention of the Black Panther. What did you think of the scene with Klaw? I'll be honest -- the sound in the theater I attended isn't always all that great and I had a difficult time picking up all of the dialogue in that part of the film.

Karen: What did you think of Quicksilver dying? I guess they have more than enough characters. But it didn't have much emotional impact for me.

Doug: I was surprised -- kept waiting for him to get up. Before that, I assumed he'd zip by and display a handful of bullets to Hawkeye. I've read that every draft of the script had him dying at the end... however, they did shoot an alternate ending where he survives in order to "throw people off" so that there'd be no leaks about that aspect of the film. I didn't feel like we got to know him enough that I'd care. Did you catch the split second when Wanda and the Vision gazed into one another's eyes?

Karen: When the Vision swoops down and saves Wanda? That was thrilling! Although none of the actors will discuss it, it seems as though they are headed towards some sort of relationship for those two, which should be interesting. I wonder what people will make of it.

Doug: Personally, I agree with Maria Hill -- "she's weird". So I'm thinking it could actually be less of a problem in the films than it ever was in the comics! Seriously, I just couldn't warm to either Wanda or Pietro. Their transformation from bad to good was way too quick. But then, give that an hour's worth of film was allegedly cut could have something to do with that. Wonder if there will be a director's cut?

Doug: So that being said, I did think there were some cool "Kooky Quartet" moments, although I don't believe the four of them were ever actually together in one scene. Hawkeye's pep talk to Wanda was inspiring, but again -- it only works coming from the MCU Clint. "Our" guy would have been looking down her blouse!

  
Karen:Yes, it would've been nice to see the Kooky Quartet all together for one scene. That felt like a missed opportunity to me. 
 
Doug: That Marvel has managed to weave together this universe is amazing. So many characters from so many films, and even with a spoken nod or a few minutes of screen time, it really begins to feel like the comic books.

Karen: While I enjoy that aspect of it -the complex universe -I do start to have concerns that the films are becoming over-stuffed, and perhaps having to spend too much time setting up future films. Being a comics fan I have no real trouble following who's who and such but I wonder if it becomes overly complicated for a general audience? I know I always felt completely lost at Harry Potter films, for example.

Doug: I am so excited to see this again, and am looking forward to Civil War (I sort of like the depowered "New Avengers"). Although in answer to your concern, today (Thursday, 7 May 2015) it was announced that Civil War will included everyone in the MCU (including the cast from Winter Soldier) except Thor and the Hulk. Spider-Man is supposed to appear, but I don't believe in a major role. That's a whole lot of heroes and baddies!

Karen: Basically, Captain America: Civil War will be another Avengers film! What did you think of the new Avengers line-up at the end? Although I will miss Hulk and Iron Man (and Thor, but I consider him "off on assignment"), I kind of like the changes. It's just like the way the line ups would change every so often in the comic. This line-up still has some power too -Vision is up there, and I would say Wanda is too, based on what she did versus Ultron. Her powers actually reminded me more of the early Phoenix (pre-Dark Phoenix). We also have War Machine. It was great to see Falcon there too. By the time the next Avengers film rolls around, we might also have Spider-Man, the Panther, and Capt. Marvel!

Doug: Well, before the Infinity Gauntlet storyline is over I think we'll see something akin to the Korvac Saga where it's all comers versus the mad Titan. As I said several months ago, I cannot wait for a scene with Rocket Raccoon, Groot, and the Hulk! But in answer to your question, I did like the new line-up. And doggone it if Cap didn't almost say "Avengers Assemble!" But not quite... But I still smiled.

Discuss: Avengers: Age of Ultron

Karen: OK, it's finally here, quite possibly the biggest film event in the universe (at least until Star Wars: The Force Awakens comes out). I plan to see it tonight, and I'm sure many of you will see it this weekend too. Heck, some of our pals overseas have already seen it! So let's talk about the film in general - can we please keep it 

SPOILER-FREE

at least until mid-week, to give everyone a chance to see it first? But you're welcome to share general thoughts -I liked it, I thought it was too long, not enough Hulk, etc -until then.

Karen: From Marvel's own site, here's a video with some suggestions about things to look forward to seeing in the film.

Karen: As a secondary conversation point, I want to share some remarks from an interview with Roy Thomas in Rolling Stone (you can read it here). This follows on yesterday's post regarding Gerry Conway's blog on DC Comics not crediting and compensating creators for characters used on their TV shows. On how Marvel compensates creators for the films, Roy has this to say:

Are you happy with your compensation for co-creating these characters?

Yeah, yeah. A couple of years ago Marvel came to me and a number of the other creators. I guess they got tired of being sued by everybody. I got tired of being deposed all the time, too. And they did what I was always telling them, just give them the money and a little credit on the movie, and they will be your biggest fans. So I not only have certain compensations coming by the formula they worked out but they decided that because they are using those two characters — and because they are using the Yellowjacket concept somewhat in the Antman movie that comes out in a couple of months — they ended up giving me a sizeable bonus as well. And they invited me to the premiere.

Karen: It sure seems like Marvel/Disney has figured out that it's much better to keep the creators happy (oh, yeah, and do the right thing) by actually compensating them.

Stan Lee is also included in that Rolling Stone interview. Our buddy Mike W. brought this video to our attention. Yet another of Stan the Man's many skills on display:

NOTE (April 27 2020): In doing housekeeping on the BAB, I've come across the broken link to this video. As I have no recollection of its content, I must regretfully leave it in its broken state. Apologies to all!

BAB Firsts (the 1st Versus): Who ya Got? Kang the Conqueror or Ultron?

This post was originally published on February 17 2010

Doug: The New Year brings with it some new features here on the BAB blog. Today we'll begin a semi-regular series called "versus", where we'll pit two opposing yet similar entities against each other -- not in some faux battle, but more along the lines of who we've liked better, why one is better than the other at "X", and so on. Today it's the two greatest nemeses of the Avengers, but who knows? Next time it could be Elton John versus Billy Joel! Maybe later it'll be Karen's favorite baseball player versus my nominee. So let's get on with the debate.

Doug: I guess any discussion like this can't help but start with one's personal preferences -- hey, throw objectivity out the window! So I'll begin by saying that I like the "Celestial Madonna" storyline better than I like the "Bride of Ultron" (but close -- how does one choose between two masterpieces?) -- those would be my favorite Avengers stories involving these two do-badders.
Karen: Well, you already know I'm biased! I mean I did write a whole article on Ultron for Back Issue! (on the shelves now! -Doug). Both Ultron and Kang are great adversaries for the Avengers, but I give the edge to the mad robot because of the emotional response he always evokes from the team. He's definitely the black sheep that no one wants to talk about. The son of Hank Pym, father of the Vision, and he's tried to make wives out of both the Wasp and Mockingbird. There's a lot of twisted history there! On top of that, throw in indestructible adamantium skin, and you've got a heck of a threat.

Doug: Yeah, I wouldn't discount any of that, and I would never say that I don't like Ultron. I don't know... there's just something about Kang, time travel, and the possibilities. I will admit that I've read some bad Kang stories -- the "Council of Cross-Time Kangs" that ran in the Avengers #290's didn't do much for me. I think the intent was good, and there were some good elements, but overall I didn't like it.

Doug: I really like "Celestial Madonna" 1) for the scope of it and 2) for the little extras: the Legion of the Unliving (good Kang add-on), the origin of the Vision, as well as the origin of Mantis. Kang's certifiably maniacal, he has an interesting goal, and scribe Steve Englehart executes a grand tale. I'll admit that the story ends on a clunker in GS Avengers #4 when Kang is ridiculously shoe-horned back into the story, but there's redemption in the pages of the "Serpent Crown Affair" that ran shortly thereafter. Kang's the star of the substory involving the Wild West heroes and Hawkeye, Thor and Moondragon, and meets a memorable end in combat against Thor. Really good stuff, with art by a young George Perez.

Doug: I'd be remiss if I didn't give a shout-out to two fine Kurt Busiek stories -- the "Kang Dynasty" and Avengers Forever. Although Perez was not along for either ride, the art in both stories was ably handled by Ivan Reis, Brent Anderson and Keiron Dwyer and Carlos Pacheco (respectively). While "Kang Dynasty" is a bit long (I believe 16 issues total), either would be recommended as two latter-day Kang classics.

Karen: Kang has given Earth's Mightiest a huge heaping of trouble time and again (no pun intended). Doug, you know I am also a fan of the "Celestial Madonna" saga, and it was fascinating how Englehart explored the different identities of Kang -how he connected Kang, Rama Tut, and Immortus. That's one of the cool things about time travel stories: you have endless possibilities to play with.

Karen: That being, said, I think I can toss out some of Ultron's greatest moments here and find that they measure up nicely. I think his rebirth as an adamantium-coated nightmare in Avengers 66-68 is a great early example of just how devastating he could be. The "Bride of Ultron" storyline upped the ante quite a bit; now, instead of just wanting to kill Pym, we saw Ultron also wants to supplant him and take what is his - his wife! Disturbing on a lot of levels, and it certainly left the Avengers shaken.

Karen: But Kurt Busiek -funny how that name has popped up again, isn't it? - came up with the most dangerous and devastating Ultron story yet, "Ultron Unlimited", in the third volume of Avengers. Not only does the maniac take over an entire nation, slaughter its people and turn them into cyber-zombies, he kidnaps five Avengers with plans to use their brain patterns to create an entire android race under his dominion! The remaining Avengers have to battle their way through hundreds of Ultrons to get to the true villain, giving Thor a chance to utter the famous line, "Ultron, we would have words with thee." Besides the thrilling battles, we also learn a startling fact, one that makes absolute sense, of the kind where you slap yourself in the head and say, "Of course! Why didn't I see that before?" It is revealed that Pym used his own brain patterns when he created Ultron - in effect, Ultron really is Pym's son, he has a piece of him inside him. No wonder these encounters always weighed so heavily on Pym - Ultron's actions were reflecting something inside of Pym!


Doug: That Thor line you cited is one of the all-time greats! You're making a great argument here -- were you a lawyer in a former life?? But seriously, let's evaluate: both characters have evolved through different incarnations involving technology as well as personality, both have taken on Avengers teams showcasing line-ups that could truly be called Earth's Mightiest Heroes, both have raised some serious Cain on the Earth in terms of destruction, human casualties, etc., and both seem to keep popping up every few years. You could argue, too, that Kang's constant pining after Ravonna creates a love interest somewhat akin to Ultron's quest to make himself a complete man/robot by fulfilling that need with Jocasta, etc. Kang and Ultron are head and shoulders above any other nemesis the Avengers have faced, based on longevity alone!


Doug: So if our faithful followers determine that your argument was stronger, should I feel badly? Negative -- because in this "versus", could one really go wrong on a rainy day with a stack of comics featuring either super-baddie?