What a year in the Marvel Cinematic Universe!

Image via https://movieweb.com/marvel-studios-10-years-mcu-fandom-video/

NOTE - If the spacing in this post seems a little wonky, we had tech issues. Obviously tech issues that are not easily corrected. Hey, cut us some slack... we're rusty!

Karen: Since Doug and I are popping back into the blog-o-sphere briefly, we want to take the opportunity to discuss a few of the Marvel films that have come out recently. Since these have been out a while now, this discussion will be SPOILER-FILLED, so stop reading now if you haven't seen them yet and still want to be surprised! OK? Ready? You can't blame us now if your little hearts are broken by anything you read!

Karen: I had the luck to see Avengers: Infinity War on a huge screen at the Alamo Drafthouse in Kansas City, MO while visiting friends, and what an experience. The film is a visual powerhouse, a true spectacle -this is essentially the culmination of all of the preceding films, well, certainly the Avengers films, and it moves at a good clip. It was ideal to see it with a packed house that was completely engaged. Lots of folks applauding, laughing, gasping -but when the movie ended, it was completely silent. This was not your typical Marvel film (I think they tipped their hand somewhat at the beginning, when the opening credits rolled and there was no Marvel fanfare music). "Gut-punched" is the best way I can describe it. I have seen it again, and the impact is lessened somewhat, but it's still pretty wrenching. Of course, the original Avengers are left alive, and I am sure that in Avengers 4, they will find a way to bring the missing half of the population back -and I'm betting they pay a price to do so.

Doug: I saw A:IW on the best Saturday ever! My oldest son was able to come home for the weekend and we saw Avengers at a noon showing at the Paramount Theater in Kankakee, IL. After a late lunch, we headed to the Venue at the Horseshoe Casino in Hammond, IN to take in Rain: A Tribute to the Beatles. I don't know if any two human being should be allowed to have that much fun in one day.

Karen: Wow, I don't know if you could get much further apart in tone - at least you ended your day with the more upbeat entertainment!

Doug: Rain was great. We've seen them twice. Each time, the showstopper is "George Harrison's" rendition of While My Guitar Gently Weeps. Standing ovation each time.

Doug: We also had a pretty interactive crowd during our screening of Infinity War. Of note was the entrance of Captain America, which brought about quite a commotion. Very well done. The Guardians of the Galaxy of course stole the show whenever they hit the screen, and I thought The Spinners' Rubberband Man was a great way to announce their arrival. I agree with you, though, that the film opened on a dark note - picking right up from the conclusion of Thor: Ragnarok, but without any of that film's humor. After years of glimpses here and there, we finally got to see Thanos in all his incredibleness. He didn't disappoint. And from there it was "buckle your seatbelts", because we indeed got a tour of the galaxy that was enough to make one's head spin. I have not seen the movie a second time, but would like to.

Karen: I think the second (or third...) viewing helps to dial in the details, and also bring the characters more into focus. I guess that's where I felt a bit let down. Beyond the spectacle of it all, which admittedly is amazing, I was a little disappointed that we didn't get more character development, or key moments with some characters. I will say Thor had a fantastic story within the film. He has been so utterly devastated, but returns in the final act so heroically... although  his ultimate attack on Thanos ends in failure. Tony Stark sees his fears realized, and Robert Downey Jr does a terrific job. I really enjoyed his exchanges with Benedict Cumberbatch as the equally-arrogant Dr. Strange. But I was completely surprised by Hulk losing his nerve -and a little disappointed too. For Avengers 4, I suspect we may see him emerge as some version of "Smart Hulk," with Banner more in control. I would have liked more Cap too, but I imagine he'll get more time in the next film. It was sweet seeing the Vision/Wanda romance on the big screen, although it is suddenly in full bloom - obviously a lot has happened since Civil War. And depending on what happens in the next film, this might be all we see of that relationship.

 
Doug: I also felt like a ball had been dropped with the Hulk/Banner character(s). The aforementioned Thor: Ragnarok had finally given us a Hulk that fans of the Bronze Age Defenders have been awaiting - funny, crude, and just plain incredible. But after his sudden appearance as the apparent savior of the Asgardians' ship, that was all.

So while seeing Banner in the Hulkbuster armor was kind of cool, that he never broke out of it and unleashed a berserker rage was disappointing.

Karen: Agreed, we had a full-on, talking, smashing Hulk, almost as if a Sal Buscema drawing had come to life! All we got was that fake trailer with him running with the rest of the Avengers in Wakanda. Bummer!

Doug: I loved that the Vision had somehow gotten his hands on Nightcrawler's "image inducer" (sheesh... second time that's come up this week) and we saw him as a sort of Victor Shade. However, although he and Wanda got quite a bit of screen time, their powers felt really off. She was suddenly the strongest Avenger (until Thor arrived), and whereas I'd hoped to see the Vision we'd seen in Avengers: Age of Ultron and Captain America: Civil War, we instead got a character who spent most of the picture as a victim. So despite really, really liking the film, I'm starting to sound bitter with my Hulk comments ahead of this negativity. But I really did like it!

Karen: I hear you - I don't want to complain either, considering how much Marvel had done! It's just, well, I want more! There were so many deaths. I think the ones caused by Thanos' use of the stones will get reversed, but the earlier ones?

Hard to say. I wonder if Loki is truly dead. He essentially pulled a knife on Thanos, which didn't seem very clever of him. Given his capability with illusion, could he have fooled the Titan and removed himself so he could plot against him and  strike at the right time? Tom Hiddleston has done such a wonderful job with Loki that I'd hate to see him go out so pointlessly. Let him have a moment of sheer ruthless calculation and trickery.

Doug: Rumors are running hot and heavy in the past few weeks that Avengers 4 is going to look an awful lot like Avengers Forever. And if you recall, Captain Mar-Vell's son Genis-Vell had a large role there. Could our newly arriving Captain Marvel fit into that part? It's pretty obvious that time travel is going to have to be a component of Avengers 4, and I'm wondering if the assumed rescue of Janet van Dyne from the microverse in Ant-Man and the Wasp this summer will play into what's to come. And seriously - if somehow out of this we get to see Hawkeye in the Old West, my life will about be complete! 

Karen: Funny -my husband and I were trying to figure out how they will right things, and getting the Gauntlet back and just reversing time would be too simple. We wondered if Ant-Man's "quantum realm" or whatever it is might be the key to traveling through time -or to an alternate reality -to somehow fix things. Now, I would think the odds are unlikely we'll get Hawkeye running around with the Two-Gun Kid, but I'd love to see Kang show up!

Karen: Thanos was very well done -I never felt taken out of the movie by the CGI. Very convincing. Even though they changed his motivation, it worked. It's probably easier for a general audience to accept a genocidal desire to balance the population than a love for the physical manifestation of Death. I mentioned to my husband that he came off like a dark Jor-El -he saw a threat to his planet, and the universe, and when no one listened, rather than trying to save people or at least save his loved ones, he decides to kill half the population. He's also sort of the opposite of Cap. When Cap was on Sokovia and they were talking about blowing it up, he refused until everyone was off. Cap is unwilling to trade in lives. Thanos sees it as essential to saving other lives. I suppose you can justify anything if you try hard enough.

Doug: Thanos was pretty convincing in his logic. His logic. Isn't Cap great? I do have another minor disappointment in A:IW, and that's when Cap and Thanos went mano a mano we didn't get to hear Cap say, "I could do this all day." You mentioned above some of the great interactions between the various characters. The directors did a wonderful job of balancing all of these actors and egos and really moving the story forward in a concise manner.

And also as you said, some of the characters really played wonderfully off each other. Also worth mentioning is the chemistry between Thor and Quill, and of course between Stark and young Parker. And how about that scene where our two resident psychos - Winter Soldier and Rocket Raccoon - teamed up to blast any and all alien baddies? Loved it! 

Karen: There were so many great team-ups. Didn't you think that Stark was really missing his old, reliable, professional Avengers team-mates when he was stuck with the idiotic Guardians on Titan? The exasperation was just pouring out of him! And I still crack up thinking about this exchange: "I am Groot!" "I am Steve Rogers!"

Doug: There's probably one other major thing from Infinity War that bears discussion, and that would be the appearance of the Red Skull. What did you think of that? I know for my son and I it was literally jaw-dropping. For me, it fit perfectly and was a nicely wrapped surprise. I will also say that I was able to see Infinity War spoiler-free. Even the trailers and pre-release publicity kept everything to the guessing/anticipation stage.

Karen: At first when I saw that hooded figure I thought, "Wow, are they going to bring in Mistress Death?" But honestly, the Red Skull was just as good -maybe better, because it was so cool to discover what had become of him. And I agree about seeing it spoiler-free: I have to commend my fellow fans, because it seemed like no one was letting anything out this time. It was wonderful to experience this film cold, basically.

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Doug: We're going to interrupt today's post for an intermission. For those among us of a certain age - and if you are, you know what I mean - there was one aspect of Avengers: Infinity War that was especially affecting. Longtime commenter and resident cartoonist PF Gavigan contacted us ahead of our return and offered to do a strip specifically for today's post. We are thrilled to display it below, and then we'll be back to our MCU thoughts.

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Karen: I'm really excited about the upcoming Ant-Man and the Wasp movie -it will be like a refreshing, light breeze after this heavy affair. And it was such a thrill to see Laurence Fishburne as Bill Foster in the trailer, directly referencing being Goliath! I'm assuming the film takes place before Infinity War. But I wonder if the end credits scenes may lead us into Avengers 4.

Doug: Which makes me wonder... if there's a time travel element to Avengers 4, are we going to find out that the Avengers Initiative was not a project invented upon Thor's arrival, as Nick Fury has suggested? Sure seems like there were heroes running around before Iron Man - three size-changers that we now know of, and that Easter egg with the Original Human Torch has been on my back burner since first seeing Captain America: The First Avenger.

Karen: Well, I've kind of wondered if it was something Nick Fury, Peggy Carter, and Howard Stark cooked up, since he told Tony about it at the end of Iron Man. But who knows -was there a proto-Avengers team? Did Hank Pym know Carol Danvers?

Doug: If this Ant-Man film is anything like its predecessor, we're in for a light-hearted, popcorn movie treat. And I think I really appreciate that about Marvel, as compared to their Distinguished Competition. Marvel gets it - they know that there were comics before and after the Dark Ages of the late 1980s-early 2000s. DC seems to have forgotten that they were the light-hearted company through the 1940s-mid-1980s. It's a shame; hopefully they find their identity a bit with the upcoming Shazam! film.

Karen: Of course, Black Panther was also a huge hit for Marvel, and is already out on blu-ray/DVD. I still can't get over how fast these movies are available to stream/buy after they hit the theaters. This was also a spectacular-looking film - I have to say the movie version of Wakanda was far grander than any version I recall from the comics. It was so perfectly envisioned -and it was cool to see it in Infinity War again. Panther had one of the best casts of any Marvel movie, and a very strong story. Chadwick Boseman has completely won me over as T'Challa.

Doug: I made the trek to Indiana the Thursday before Veterans' Day to see Thor: Ragnarok with my sons and we were also able to see BP together. We had a great time at both films. Yes - the spectacle of Black Panther was incredible. I was pleasantly surprised that M'Baka the Man-Ape was in the film and how well he was portrayed. Erik Killmonger raised some important philosophical issues, giving us that Dr. King/Malcolm X dichotomy. I have read numerous comments online and have had some meaningful conversations with some of my students of color after this film came out. In addition to being a grand superhero film, Marvel has opened some dialogue that (unfortunately) still needs to take place.

Karen: The impact of Black Panther has been amazing to see. I have to admit I was not prepared for just how big it would be. How many young people will see this and it will be their Star Wars - that movie that forever changed everything for them? Who knows what crop of film-makers or writers or artists or even scientists and engineers may spring up after being inspired by this movie? It might sound like hyperbole, but films and TV shows can really affect people.

Doug: You know, we could go on and on here - we haven't really touched Guardians of the Galaxy, volume 2. And shoot - even though not an MCU film, I was going to bring up War for the Planet of the Apes! But maybe we'll just see what direction this takes in the comments - that's right, now it's reader's write time!

From Chicago to Wakanda to Plaszow to Selma - Doug's Summer Reading List

Doug: With yesterday's observance of Labor Day here in the States, summer has unofficially come to an end. And as we've done in the past around here, we like to query the reading lists of friends and discuss that of your hosts. I always look forward to these times to get recommendations and really to just get a finger on the pulse of our readers' preferences inside and outside the comics/graphic novel genre.

I was really floored when I set to gathering images for today's post. I knew I'd been somewhat prolific since May -- way more than in the past several summers -- but I had no idea how ravenous an appetite for reading I'd had. So in chronological order (because I'm a history guy, you know...), here are my accomplishments.

In May I actually finished a book I'd started in the fall of 2015. Having lived in the Chicago area for 95% of my life, my wife and I have an interest in Chicago history. So last year, while she read The Devil in the White City, I started Sin in the Second City. You can see from the taglines on the book's cover what it is basically about. It centers on a pair of sisters who arrive in town with the goal of setting up the best brothel in America. The Everleigh (get it?) Club was notorious, and the circumstances around its existence and demise were compelling reading.

I followed that book with a biography of Eliot Ness. I probably haven't seen but one or two episodes of the 1959-63 television show The Untouchables, but I love the 1986 film of the same name that starred Kevin Costner, Sean Connery, Andy Garcia, and Robert DeNiro. Last year my wife and I toured Union Station, site of the most memorable scene from that film. So I've had this closet interest in Ness, and upon seeing the book for sale at the Chicago History Museum I purchased it. Like all people and events, lives and circumstances tend to be romanticized over time. This would definitely be true of the history of the Untouchables, a story actually promoted by Ness himself. I had not known that after Prohibition ended Ness landed in Cleveland and became that city's Public Safety Director. Ness led an interesting, and conflicted, life to be sure. It was a good read.

When I headed to Washington, DC in mid-July I wanted to read something that could probably be conquered in the four-plus hours (round-trip) of flight time. Having recently downloaded a file of all the Tarzan novels to my Kindle, I chose Jungle Tales of Tarzan. It was my third read of that book, and its format as a collection of short stories was perfect. This also helped to set my mind for seeing the Tarzan film, which I did after my return.

For light reading while in Washington, because being immersed in the Holocaust definitely requires a mental break, I took my copy of the the Black Panther Marvel Masterworks. I've long been reporting that a storyline I'd never read but needed to was "Panther's Rage". I actually read the first three issues (of 13) while away from home, and then finished it upon my return. I have something in the works for later this fall in terms of a review of the story. Footnote: As Marvel is soon releasing a paperback Epic Collection version of the "Panther's Rage" story, and with the Marvel Premiere BP stories also included, I decided to sell my Masterworks and pre-order the softcover as a replacement. My copy sold on eBay last month for $120, so it was a wise decision financially.

While at the Holocaust Museum, a colleague recommended I read My Grandfather Would Have Shot Me. You can see the tagline on the cover. But the kicker is that the author's grandfather was not some obscure Nazi lost to the sands of time. No... Jennifer Teege's grandfather was none other than Amon Goth, commandant of the Plaszow Labor Camp and immortalized in Steven Spielberg's Schindler's List. Goth and his mistress, shown a couple of times in the film, had a baby girl just months before the War ended and Goth was hanged for his crimes. That baby girl grew up and had a relationship with a man of African descent which bore a daughter, Jennifer. Ms. Teege did not know the full truth about her background until she was an adult and how that new knowledge turned her life upside down is the theme of the book. Fascinating reading.

I felt like I needed something a little lighter to help balance the Teege book. On Amazon's Kindle Store, books that have fallen to the public domain are offered for a free download. While browsing I found the first Lone Ranger book and snatched it up. It was OK -- I found it perhaps more sociologically interesting in terms of the attitudes and stereotypes than I found it to be any sort of high literature. But I'm glad I read it. Funny, because I could "see" Clayton Moore and Jay Silverheels in my head the entire time I read it and much of the dialogue seemed like it could have been used later in the television program.

 

I mentioned to a Twitter friend a few weeks ago, as he was on his way to hear Rep. John Lewis (D-GA) speak that I regretted passing on a rally in DC after the Dallas shootings. Lewis was to be the main speaker at a rally on the Capitol lawn. If you are not aware, John Lewis remains a major figure in the Civil Rights Movement, and is the last living person who spoke at the March on Washington on 28 August 1963 (site of Dr. Martin Luther King's famous "I Have a Dream" speech). Lewis has authored a memoir in the graphic novel format. March has been issued in three volumes. I have read the first two and am awaiting the third installment, which will arrive with the Black Panther book I mentioned above. Highly recommended!

While reading March I was also reading Robert E. Howard's only full-length Conan novel, Conan the Conqueror. I read it from a Kindle file of Howard's complete Conan stories. It was a solid read, and a nice balance to the themes of Lewis's memoir. I'll recommend any Howard Conan, and follow it up with a tip of the hat to the way Marvel (notably Roy Thomas) handled the character in the Bronze Age.

So summer's over and I've begun reading Viktor Frankl's Holocaust memoir Man's Search for Meaning. But you know I'll have to have a mental diversion from those difficult events and themes, so from the Kindle I will also soon begin Johnston McCulley's The Mark of Zorro. That, and all the comics I read so that I can bring the reviews your way for consideration are on the horizon.

Now, how about you?

 

Discuss: Captain America: Civil War - FULLY SPOILED!!

CIVIL WAR: FULLY SPOILED EDITION!!
WARNING: SPOILERS AHEAD!!!

Karen: That's right kids, it's time to discuss this blockbuster, no-holds-barred, say what you will! First up, me and my co-host Doug are going to get things rolling with our thoughts on the film, and then it's up to you to keep it going.

Karen: My overall impression of the the film is that I enjoyed it, but it does seem a bit over-stuffed. Somehow, despite all of the characters and places and plot threads, it still feels like Captain America's story is the core of the film, but there is an awful lot of other stuff going on around that.

Doug: I enjoyed it too, but I am having guilt feelings because I didn't walk out of the theater giddy as I was when I saw The Avengers, or Captain America: the First Avenger or Captain America: Winter Soldier. I think Civil War ultimately makes my top 5 MCU films, but I can't put my finger on exactly why I haven't had puppy love butterflies. It is a dense film with tons of characters, as you say, but I didn't ever feel that the film was hampered by that. If anything, it seemed to effectively serve the purpose of the plot.

Karen: I hear you. I wasn't as pumped up at the end of this one either, but I think that's natural - we've just seen our heroes torn apart. It's not a happy ending. Maybe it's a bit like that feeling from when we first saw The Empire Strikes Back - everything has fallen apart and how are our heroes going to recover? Well, we know they will somehow get back together to face Thanos for The Infinity War.

Doug: Agreed. I've also seen the Russos refer to this pic as their "Empire...", and there is that sense of uncertainty at the end of this. I'm thinking the first Infinity War movie (or whatever they are going to call it) is going to be a major butt-kicking. My guess is that it will be the darkest film of the MCU.

Karen: The conflict -whether or not to sign the Accords, to accept the authority of the world's governments, or to keep their autonomy - is clouded by the issue of Bucky and his guilt or innocence in the Vienna bombing (and later, his assassination of the Starks). I sort of wish they'd kept Bucky out of the whole thing and kept the discord about the whether or not to sign the accords, and maybe the idea that they were holding some superhumans against their will (like Wanda). But I suppose they needed to resolve the Winter Soldier storyline, and grafting that onto Civil War worked out.

Doug: It did work out, and I viewed the Vienna incident as the last straw that pushed everything over the edge. One element from the Accords and Bucky storylines being mashed together was the character trait of loyalty in Captain America - loyalty to freedom (or his interpretation of it) and to Bucky. However, and we've said this before, there is no sense of history between Cap and Bucky in the MCU as there is in the comics. This would have played out much better in the comics because of what we knew for decades. To try to make us care from one film to the next is a bit of a hefty request.

Karen: I think they've done a decent enough job of establishing Bucky as Cap's best buddy -but it kind of bothers me, as I think that's the role the Falcon should have!

Doug: There is sometimes a sense of "Captain America and the Falcon", isn't there? Oh, and loved Redwing -- when Sam first used the device I was thinking to myself, "Hmm, just like Redwing would do." And I was right!

Doug: I'd also argue that Wanda's role in the fall-out of the Crossbones battle (by the way - very cool, and loved Crossbones) might have played better in an X-Men picture. The doubt of the nature of her powers and her ability/lack of ability to control them seems to fit in better with anti-mutant hysteria. Of course, she's a Hydra construct now, right? In regard to the Accords, they sort of just drop, don't they? Sure, there's been some history through the past few MCU movies, but there's really no tension in this film as "Thunderbolt" Ross shows up and boom! Sokovia Accords.

Karen: It's interesting that they chose to bring Thunderbolt Ross back as the agent for the Accords. Yes, there wasn't much warning that they were coming, but considering what happened in Sokovia, and perhaps more likely, how badly  the politicians would want to control the kind of power the Avengers have, it's no surprise. 

Doug: Ross was perhaps a stand-in for Henry Peter Gyrich. Maybe his inclusion was part of an effort to legitimize that second Hulk film.

Karen: Regarding the two camps, the leaders in both cases aren't seeing things straight. Cap is blinded by his friendship for, and guilt over, Bucky. He's willing to do anything for him.  He also has a huge distrust of authority since coming out of the ice, after the incidents in Avengers and Winter Soldier. So it's not surprising that he doesn't think it's a great idea to allow the most powerful fighting force on Earth to be directed by a group of politicians. As he says in the film, "What if they want to send us somewhere we shouldn't go? Or they won't let us go somewhere we should?" However, he never tries to work with anyone. When Bucky is in trouble, he just goes off and does his thing.

Doug: The whole "Cap's survivor guilt" is overplayed. While the guilt over surviving the larger War is one thing, guilt and loss over Bucky seems a bit of a stretch. Again, we don't have the longer backstory of not only the War years but of Cap's early years after his revival from suspended animation as we do in the comics. This is one I have a tough time separating and enjoying as an aspect of the MCU. You mention Cap as a loner. I did enjoy the first scene of the film. It's obvious that Cap has trained these Avengers, not unlike he did in the Kooky Quartet era. Fun stuff! 

Karen: I always think of part of Cap's guilt over  Bucky in the MCU as being his feeling of guilt over what Bucky was turned into -a mindless assassin. If he had been able to save him, none of this -the years of working for Hydra, and all of the crimes and murders he committed -would have occurred. So Cap feels responsible for Bucky's actions, in his own way.

Karen: As for Stark, he is at one of his lowest points. He has split from Pepper, seemingly due to his need to be Iron Man. He's wracked with guilt over the death and damage he's caused by his arrogance. He's ready to hand the reins over to someone else. Downey plays Tony Stark as a man on the edge -he appears about to crack many times in the film, and when he discovers the Winter Soldier killed his parents, he really does, quite effectively.

Doug: For the first time in six films, I felt empathy toward Tony Stark. Prior to that, he was just sort of a rich jerk who I couldn't relate to. You know, I saw some criticism online of the computer generated Stark family scene. I loved it. I thought that really added to the characterization of Tony Stark, and to the greater MCU. While not directly mentioned, it did bring Hank Pym's comment in Ant-Man about Howard Stark into the light. I also found myself not caring for Bucky Barnes by the end of the film. Brainwashing or not, he's going to need some rehabilitation in order to bring me back.

Karen: Both Howard and Tony have huge egos and just always think they are right. The scene in the Raft prison, where Tony walks in and Hawkeye says derisively, "The Futurist! He knows what's best for you!" really nails it. In Tony's mind, everything he does, whether it's building Ultron or signing the Accords, is the best possible path. But Tony has miscalculated a lot over the years. 

Karen: Now Tony finally admits that maybe he isn't always right -but once he decides the Avengers should sign the Accords, he can't see the other side of it. Although he desperately wants Cap to side with him. And of course, by the end, he's taking matters into his own hands again, breaking the Accords to help Steve, at least briefly.

Karen: I thought most of the other characters got at least one good moment, if not several. I am more and more impressed with Black Widow -she truly deserves her own film. Her moves in the opening action sequence manage to be both graceful and brutal! It's amazing. And I appreciate the fine line she walks between Tony and Steve.

Doug: I'm really unsure what to make of the use of Giant-Man. On the one hand, "Heck yeah!!" But then it seemed as if he moved in slow motion the entire scene, which really made the character less than formidable. But there were some cool visuals, like grabbing and holding Rhodey by the legs, and breaking off and swinging the airplane wing. And speaking of cool visuals, how about the Vision phasing into Wanda's room near the beginning of the movie? That brought a big smile to my face. I liked the way the Vision was portrayed and thought he got some great screen time. Hawkeye seemed a bit short-changed -- and even when he had the chance to call himself "Hawkeye", he said "My name is Clint." Why run from it?

Karen: I figured you would love the Giant-Man sequence! Yes, he moved a bit slowly, but I think it heightens the sense of his size. I loved Paul Rudd laughing maniacally when he grew! And everyone freaking out about it! It was just perfect. There was the right mix of serious and light-hearted in this fight. 

Doug: Maybe my reservations about the movie lay in a line of dialogue during the big airport battle. When the Widow and Hawkeye engaged hand-to-hand, they fell to the ground and Natasha remarked, "We're still friends, right?" Well that seemed from then on like it was really stupid and unnecessary. And I had to wonder -- actually I hoped -- if everyone was pulling their punches.

Karen: I sort of assumed there would be a lot holding back -these people are friends or at least co-workers. I didn't believe they would be trying to kill one another. Well, except for Black Panther. He definitely was. What did you think of how he looked, and how Chadwick Boseman played him? I thought it was spot on. 

Karen: Of course, you know I love me some Vision, and I was immensely pleased with the direction they took with our android Avenger in this film. He's logical, he's measured -and he's also undeniably falling for Wanda. I just wonder though if it will be reciprocated?

Doug: Vision cooking was priceless. And speaking of Vizh, am I wrong that the only time we see his density increase is when Wanda manipulates his mass and makes him sink? We saw flight and phasing, but I don't recall the ol' "hard as a diamond" schtick.

Karen: I don't know about another example of his super-heavy form, but his hard as a diamond form was used when Giant-Man kicked a bus at Panther and Vision just stood there in front of it and it shredded around him. That was quick but awesome. Really, he's so powerful, he could handle most of Cap's team himself.

Doug: I guess that went right past me. That airport scene, once it lands on YouTube, will be one replayed for the ages. Sort of like the Thor/Hulk battle in The Avengers and the elevator scene in Winter Soldier.

Doug: So back to the Panther. He was just another in a long line of "gettin' it right" from these MCU creators. I mean, go back to Tuesday's characterization question... Can you think of an egregious "miss" in the MCU? Sure, they're for the most part playing these characters as their Ultimate universe selves. but we continue to come to them the first time "knowing" them. I really liked the Panther costume, and didn't mind that it was made of vibranium -- for all I know, that's true in today's comics. No clue. But the bullet-proof capability, coupled with his speed and agility (by the way, the motorcycle chase scene was a bit far-fetched, even for comics -- the Flash wasn't the one running, you know) make him a very special hero.

Karen: With Panther, I think we got the regal character we expected, whose rage was held simmering below the surface. I just hope we get to see some of his genius intellect next time around. I hope they don't drop that aspect of the character. Spidey was another delight.For once, he felt like a teenager. Was Spidey essential to the story? No, not at all. But I loved how he was portrayed, I liked how he and Stark played off each other, and I'm looking forward to the Spider-Man film with Marvel at the wheel.

Doug: I totally concur on all things Spider-Man, from the lack of necessity to the plot to Stark's rapport with Peter (and with May). I  made a comment on our spoiler-free post last week that this Aunt May is the age she really always should have been. Really, if Stan Lee and Steve Ditko had wanted a frail old woman in Peter's life as an ongoing (and ongoing...) plot device, then he should have been raised by his grandma or great-grandma. Like I said, two of my aunts are only around 12 years older than I, and two others are only slightly younger than my parents. If you reflect on May's depiction in even the earliest issues of Amazing Spider-Man, she has to be in her late 70s. For a 15-year old kid, that's not his aunt. Loved the new costume, the CGI eyes, and the banter. Absolutely smiled out loud (you know what I mean) when Spidey was criticized (by Falcon?) for talking too much during a fight. The display of Peter's strength and agility against much older adversaries was a superb showcase of what is to come. I really can't wait for the reboot to land; everyone knows I'm on record for not liking Andrew Garfield -- looking forward to this breath of fresh air.

Doug: Baron Zemo. Many have complained that he was a wasted villain, or not necessary to the plot. I think an underlying theme in the film was manipulation. And truth, too. The Avengers have been manipulated by Loki, Ultron, Crossbones, and Zemo. They keep being forced into situations where choices need to be made, and generally with consequences that fall outside what our heroes would normally morally choose. So Zemo was, in my opinion, an able catalyst. Granted, he took some chances and got lucky (movie lucky, comic book lucky) that Cap and Bucky followed him to Siberia. Iron Man following them -- calculated or lucky? It's an old trope -- having one's enemies destroy themselves. Zemo nearly pulled it off.

Karen: I just don't know why they bother calling him Zemo -he has nothing to do with the original villain. That does annoy me a little. But not enough to matter when it comes to my overall enjoyment of the film. I guess I was just hoping that 'Zemo' would have some greater connection to the Marvel universe. But you make a good point -why is it that these heroes are so readily manipulated? And what does that imply when we consider that Thanos is on the way? In comics, heroes are mostly reactive, while villains are the ones initiating action. It's much the same in the films, but the heroes seem to be easily worked into bad situations.

Doug: No hood, no Adhesive X, no Zemo as far as I'm concerned. But again, I thought as a plot point the character's presence was fine.

Karen: I also felt there were deeper machinations at work: what was it that Howard Stark had in his car that the Winter Solider took from him? It looked like five bags of some sort of blue-colored plasma. This was  apparently then given to the Russian soldiers to create more winter soldiers. Was this another version of the super soldier formula that SHIELD was working on? Will we ever learn more about that?

Doug: My assumption was that it was a replication of the Super-Soldier serum. Say, did you count the dead Soviets (man, that sounds like a name for a punk band) in the last scene? Did Zemo indeed slay them all? I was thinking that we might have had the opportunity for the Soviet Super-Soldiers in a future Winter Soldier standalone flick.

 Karen: I did count, and it looked to me like we started with five, and ended with five -dead. So I think all of them are dead -at least the ones we saw. But hey, who knows -maybe one will be revived as Deathlok? Oh wait -they already made a super-lame version on the Agents of SHIELD TV show.

Karen: And here's a silly thought: Was having Wanda in a green outfit at the beginning of the movie a tip of the hat to her first appearance in X-Men #4, where the Scarlet Witch was in a green costume on the cover? OK, probably not, but these are the things that rattle through my brain.

Doug: You scientists are so detail oriented. How'd you pick up on that? I got nuthin'. But then, that will give me something to look for if I see the film again. After this discussion, I think I'm even a little more amped for it than when we began. And I'm really anticipating everyone else's views in our comments section.

Karen: Me too, so let's get throw it over to everyone else! And hey, Humanbelly -Bob C. says he's going to revoke your Marvel Nerd card if you haven't seen Civil War by now, so for your sake, I sure hope you can report in!