Arc of Triumph... Phoenix Rising?

Doug: This one comes up around the BAB periodically, so we're going to use it as a launching pad for a larger discussion. As I've mentioned, I've been reading Ed Brubaker's run on Captain America from around 10 years ago. Previously having stated my disdain for the resurrection of Bucky Barnes, I've been converted. Given Brubaker's deft storytelling and "plausible" explanation (hey, it's still a funnybook) for Bucky's reappearance, I went to the Dark Side. But as I've also said, I've taken this with a hefty grain of "What If?" Many of you have remarked that there are certain deaths that simply should not be undone -- Ben Parker seems to top that list. So given today's story arc within the broader context of deaths in comics, we'd like you to expound on this as an issue. As another nugget for starting us out, why is it that long-time Cap fans just assume the Red Skull is going to pop again soon, regardless of how he met his "last" demise. Why is that OK?

What Are You Reading?

Doug: I think it's been a long time since we've checked in with each other concerning what lies atop (or a'bottom for that matter) the reading pile. I know I never feel like I read enough, although at the end of any day I guess I've read quite a bit either in the context of work, checking Twitter a few times throughout the day, or a daily newspaper early in the evening. But in terms of some seriously dedicated reading, I always feel deficient. So in the interest of prying into your personal lives and interests, here goes:

Doug: Presently I find myself in the middle of no less than four books, and that's a lot of plates to be spinning for me. Academically, I'm a few chapters into Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin by Timothy Snyder and Hitler's Beneficiaries by Gotz Aly. Both are quite interesting and each book fills in my knowledge for the purpose of my teaching but also in regard to my "summer job" at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Each of these books is engaging, and neither appears to be a slog to get through. I just seem to never find a decent run of time to dedicate to really digging into them with the attention that I need to give in order to truly internalize the material.

Doug: On the lighter side of fiction, I've mentioned a few times that I began A Princess of Mars over the summer. It really never grabbed me, and although close to 3/4 of the way through I am not very eager to return. I think I'd rather re-read The Return of Tarzan, or perhaps return to The Complete Chronicles of Conan. Those short stories were nice, and as we remarked earlier Robert E. Howard seems to stay away from some of the formulaic storytelling tropes employed by Edgar Rice Burroughs. I especially enjoy reading one of those short tales and then finding the adaptation in my first four volumes of Essential Savage Sword of Conan. It's great to see the words of REH set to the comic medium.

Doug: Comics-wise, you know I've been enjoying the Marvel Pocketbook edition of The Astonishing Ant-Man: Origins; the last story I read was the 3-parter with the Hulk that originally ran in Iron Man #s 131-133. David Michelinie, Jerry Bingham, and Bob Layton paid homage to Avengers #s 93 and 140 in IM #133. I've also returned to Ed Brubaker's Captain America, finishing the Red Menace: The Ultimate Collection and now well into The Death of Captain America: The Complete Collection. Brubaker's writing is simply excellent, and the cadre of artists who illustrated these stories are top shelf.  I must declare that when I've sat down to read one of these trades I do not want to put it down. It is so entertaining. And there aren't a lot of comics that I read that are like that - page-turners. James Buchanan Barnes has really become a complex character for me, rather than the one-dimensional sidekick I'd previously believed him to be. We remarked about it earlier, but Brubaker has respectfully touched on elements of war that had been glossed over for decades. That Captain America never killed in WWII? Foolish, and Brubaker deals with that. Again, as we've said (we do have an abundance of conversations around here, don't we?) in the past, I will pass on the modern coloring for a brighter palette. But I don't let that kill my pleasure from soaking in the narrative. And I've come to employ a tactic encouraged by our friend Edo Bosnar -- in regard to the return of Bucky Barnes I just treat these as a sort of What If? or Elseworlds tale and leave it at that. I just want to find enjoyment without the continuity baggage, and Brubaker et. al accomplish that for me. I've also recently purchased the collections of Captain America: Reborn and The Winter Soldier (purchased in Lima, OH last Saturday). Once I'm done with this massive "Death of" trade, I'm hoping to get into my soon-to-arrive copy of The Monster of Frankenstein, Vol. I. I've only read the first issue and some other appearances of the Monster, so am looking forward to digging a bit deeper. And, another hardcover I need to get off the shelf is Legion of Super-Heroes Archives, Volume 13 -- gotta love some Bronze Age Superboy!

Doug: Your turn -- let's hear about your triumphs, shortfalls, and wish lists!

You Are Iron Fist -and This is Your Graphic Novel

The Immortal Iron Fist: The Complete Collection, Vol.1
Marvel, 2013
Written by Ed Brubaker and Matt Fraction
Artists: David Aja, Travel Foreman, and others

Karen: Sometimes we actually do read modern comics here at the BAB. Usually it happens when there is some great celestial event, an alignment of the planets, a comet passing through our orbit for the first time in a hundred years -you know, one of the those moments of significance. So it was when I decided to pick up The Immortal Iron Fist: The Complete Collection a few weeks ago. This hefty trade paperback collects Immortal Iron Fist #1-16, and Annual #1, as well as Immortal Iron Fist: Orson Randall  and the Green Mist of Death #1, and parts of Immortal Iron Fist: The Origin of Danny Rand #1 and Civil War: Choosing Sides #1. Whew! It's a whole lot of reading, but it all flows pretty well.It's written by Ed Brubaker and Matt Fraction, but there are a bunch of different artists; the main one is David Aja, who I was unfamiliar with prior to reading this book.

Karen: If you have been coming around these parts for any length of time, you know I am a fan of Bruce Lee, TV's Kung Fu series, and martial arts movies from the 70s in general. I'm also an Iron Fist fan. Because of the choppy distribution back in the day, I never got all of the Marvel Premiere and Iron Fist issues as they hit the stands; I got enough to understand who the character was and to develop an interest in him, but it would take years to fill in all the gaps. One of the most appealing aspects of Iron Fist was his background, with the mystical, mysterious city of K'un Lun where he received his training, and his powers. In Iron Fist's original series, through flashbacks we saw glimpses of this place, of how young orphaned Daniel Rand grew to become a living weapon. But the reveals of Iron Fist's history were, for the most part, unsatisfying and even incongruous. Like many books back in the mid-70s, Iron Fist was plagued, at least early on, by an inconsistent creative team. In Marvel Premiere alone, five different writers pieced together the story of Danny Rand's rebirth. 

Karen: Things improved when he got his own title and Chris Claremont took over the writing reins regularly. But while Claremont slightly expanded on the Iron Fist's origin, the book mostly focused on pedestrian super-hero action. Right before it got cancelled, in issue 14, we got our first taste of what was to be the best Iron Fist story so far -the Steel Serpent saga. It would play out in Marvel Team-Up #s 63 and 64, of all places. Iron Fist would face Davos,  the son of his teacher, Lei Kung the Thunderer, who wanted to steal the power of the Iron Fist from him. Finally we got some real sense of what it meant to be Iron Fist. More than just being another super-hero, being Iron Fist was something Danny Rand had earned, and came with both power and costs.

Karen: This is where this graphic novel comes in and truly fleshes out the backstory of Iron Fist, something I have wanted to see for years. We find out that Danny is just one in a long line of Iron Fists -which makes sense -and we get to see some of those who came before. Due to circumstance, Danny is drawn together with his predecessor, Orson Randall, who was the mentor of Danny's father. It's Orson that opens Danny's eyes to the history of the Iron Fist, as the two of them face mutual enemies, including Davos. Orson sacrifices himself, giving up his chi to Danny, so he will be able to beat Davos eventually. In the course of things, Danny is compelled to return to K'un Lun for a tournament of champions among six other 'immortal cities' and he faces opponents straight out of a Kung Fu fantasy film, with names like Fat Cobra, Prince of Orphans, and Bride of Nine Spiders. Also there is Davos, now known as Steel Phoenix. He is the adopted champion of one of the other cities, joining his grudge to theirs. In the background are two other plots, one involving a revolution against the rule of Yu Ti, the masked leader of K'un Lun, and another enemy on Earth who plans to use a high-speed train launched through a dimensional portal to destroy the  ancient city.

Karen: This might sound like there is a lot going on, and there is. But since it all plays out over 16 -

plus issues, it doesn't feel over-crowded. I will say that I didn't quite get the connections with the train sub-plot until near the end, and the revolution sub-plot seemed a little under-developed. But these are minor complaints. All in all, this was a compelling read. Brubaker and Fraction weave together a tale that feels very pulpy, at home with Doc Savage (indeed, the standalone Orson Randall story is clearly an homage to Doc) more than super-heroes, even though this storyline takes place during the Civil War event (which is mentioned but plays no real role). Danny Rand is given more depth, and learning of the long line (66!) of previous Iron Fists gives him a certain heft that makes him more than just another costumed hero.

Karen: Another pleasure of this collection are some of the guest artists who pop up to illustrate some of the segments. We get our pal Sal Buscema (with Tom Palmer) doing two pages of Davos' backstory, and Tom Severin and Russ Health both illustrating parts of Orson Randall's history. There were a lot of artists spread throughout this collection. Not all of the art appealed to me; but most of it was very good. David Aja has a very realistic style that grew on me. The book also contains character sketches and a story outline and script excerpts. 

Karen: I devoured this book over the course of about four days. Every spare moment I would go back to it. It renewed my interest in Iron Fist, and kept me entertained. I couldn't ask for much more from a comic.

Arc of Triumph...? Captain America 1-14 -- the Winter Soldier

Doug: Welcome back to one of the things we do best around here -- talking about comics! As you may recall, back around the second week of January we got into a little discussion of "The Winter Soldier" arc that ran in Captain America (2005) 1-9 and 11-14. I received Captain America, volume 1: Winter Soldier Ultimate Collection and loved it. I literally read the entire 13 issue arc in one evening. And right after I finished, I emailed Karen. Here is the conversation that took place over the next several days -- which is also a look inside the editorial room:

Doug: Have you read the Winter Soldier trade (Cap 1-9 and 11-14)?

Karen: Pretty sure I have those Cap comics. Do you have some sort of idea you are cooking, Mr. Wadley?

Doug: No, not really. I got the deluxe tpb for Christmas, and sat down and read all 13 issues in one sitting last night. I was prepared to sulk about it, as you know my feelings about meaningful deaths in comics. But wow...

Ed Brubaker deserves every accolade that's come his way. Cap was a bit too much like Batman to suit me, but they rationalized it by saying this was right after Disassembled. Bendis makes me mad, too.

I thought the book was better than the movie, as they say.

Karen: I'm glad that you were able to enjoy it. It's so rare with new books. I had the same feeling as you. I wanted to be upset -don't bring back Bucky! -but it was handled so well. It's been years since I read it but overall I recall feeling it was one of the best Cap storylines.

I honestly think that "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" may be the best made Marvel film - the story holds together better than "The Avengers" to me, although Avengers might be more sheer fun or wow factor.

I was contemplating going to the comic shop to try some new comics but I just know I will be disappointed. I read that Black Bolt and Medusa have a son now...there are so many things I am curious about but every time I pick up a new book, I am put off by the art and the characters behave such that I can't recognize them. Oh well, as they say, we'll always have Paris!

Doug: I thought Steve Epting's pencils were outstanding, and I liked the guy who did the WWII flashbacks even better. It's too bad that the modern coloring made it all so dark. I do miss the brightness of our four-color wonders. I even liked the Jack Monroe fill-in penciled by Jean Paul Leon, and I had not cared for some of his work back in the day. But I am with you -- I have virtually no interest in today's fare. But I do think I'll pick up the next volume in this Brubaker series. Not sure I'll get the third, which was "Civil War"...

I agree that the Winter Soldier movie was well done, and for the Marvel movie converts it was great. For long-timers like us, Brubaker's story had a much better reveal that softened the impact for us older fans. His rationale for the events that led up to Bucky's reappearance were really good and in the comic book world "made sense". 

Karen: I think the biggest problem for the Cap films is that the sense of loss for Cap regarding Bucky was not as deeply felt as it was in the comics. I mean, as readers we'd seen Cap suffer for DECADES over Bucky's death. It was considered to be the death that could not be erased. It certainly informed Cap's character so much in the early years of his Silver Age revival. He was a walking ball of guilt. No matter how talented the writer, director, or actor, you can't take all of those years of stories and character development and roll them up into the tail end of one film and then the bulk of another. I also think that some of the impact of Bucky's death is dulled by the fact that he was a full-grown man, not a kid, in the films. As an adult, he is thoroughly responsible for his actions. In the comics, although Bucky is far more capable than any kid we might know, he IS still a kid, and it makes Cap's culpability in his death more tangible, and his guilt all the more real. In the films they had to switch the focus more to the characters' friendship and it was still very moving but not nearly as powerful as the sort of surrogate father or big brother role that Cap was to Bucky in the comics.

I am wary of them bringing the "Civil War" stuff into the films. Can we let the heroes be friends and not have to have them fight each other? Let them be morally ambiguous in the comics.

Doug: What did you think of Brubaker having Cap tell Sharon that Bucky took care of a lot of the dirty work, i.e. murders, sabotage with collateral damage, etc.? I mean, it would be naive to assume that sort of thing didn't happen -- shoot, how many pilots lost their lives to the Torches and Namor? But to come right out and say it sort of took me aback. Talk about stuck in the Bronze Age. But then, earlier today I was reading the Steranko issues and Bucky is running around with a machine gun. Those issues were printed in 1968, so Stan was apparently comfortable with at least the implication that Bucky was kicking some serious tail.

I also found it interesting that they specifically tagged Bucky's age at 16 when he and Steve Rogers first met. Then Cap remarked that Bucky was almost 21 when he died. At least in my imagination, I'd have but the parameters closer to 12-16. It certainly made more sense to age him up a bit.

What did you think of, if you recall, the notion that Cap's only been thawed out for a decade? Meaning, in the 21st century??

Karen: I re-read the whole thing. Man, that is good stuff. You're right, it's a much harder Cap than we've seen before, but they do indicate that Cap's been through some things -like Hawkeye's death -that have really shaken him up, so I can accept that. The art is exceptional, although I don't really like the way his scale mail is drawn -it looks too thick. I enjoyed the flashbacks to WWII. I also liked Brubaker having Cap praise the French resistance -I recall back then (2005) a lot of folks were critical of the French, calling them cowards (Mark Millar over in Ultimates had his Cap say "this A on my head doesn't stand for France") so it was refreshing to see a more mature response. And it fit with Cap's experience too.

Regarding Bucky "doing the dirty work" -at the time it struck me as odd that they would have a youngster do those sort of things -actually, it still does. If they wanted to say that Bucky was armed like any other soldier because he didn't have the benefit of the Super-Soldier Serum, that would have made more sense to me.

I am sure they upped Bucky's age to make readers more comfortable with the idea that he was going around offing folks. It's perhaps a bit more palatable when he's 16-21 than say 13-18. But in my head, when I was reading the Invaders, I always saw him as a kid about 14 years old. Really, if you put him at 16, well, he's not that far away from enlistment age. Heck, my friend's father lied and enlisted in the Korean War when he was 17.

I think Marvel has decided that all of their 'modern' history (since the FF) is condensed into a 10-12 year period, which of course moves along as time passes. So at some point, Cap will have been thawed out 100 years after his war ended! My husband and I were talking about this the other night (we do have such wonderful conversations), that when Marvel first brought Cap back, the War had only been over for less than 20 years. Roll that around in your mind! Really, that's not too bad of a gap to have to overcome. If you'd been frozen in 1995 and woke up now, sure, it would be traumatic at first, and there's the whole issue of loved ones aging, but as far as the differences in society and technology, and adapting to it, not too  tough. But if it was 70 years, well, that's really a leap. I think anyone trying to  recover from that would be pretty psychologically hamstrung. Marvel can disregard Mr. Fantastic's and the Thing's WWII records, they can change Iron Man's origin so he is injured in Afghanistan instead of Vietnam, but taking Cap out of World War II seems impossible (and a bad idea). So I think they are stuck with it.

Do you like Cap with more of an espionage angle than a super-heroic one? 

Doug: That scene in the Ultimates stands out -- you're right. The French were taking a beating in the post-9/11 world.

I think I like Cap in both the superhero and super-spy realms. It makes sense that he'd be a super-spy, as after all he was created as the ultimate government agent.

As I said earlier, I really enjoyed Brubaker's portrayal of Cap, even if his personality did stray a bit toward Milleresque Batman.

I also thought they did an excellent job with the Falcon, really showing the respect and friendship that existed between Sam Wilson and Steve Rogers. And I had to check my Marvel chronology when Iron Man was so chummy with Cap. Wow -- would that unravel quickly. Tony Stark was actually a very accommodating individual in this story.

Brubaker and Epting crafted such a page-turner, that I've ordered the next two "ultimate collections" in the line -- these trades are nice, as they reprint material from smaller, previously issued books. I think in Red Menace and The Death of Captain America, trades #s 3-8 are collected!

Doug: A couple more thoughts:

I have been reading more in that Marvel Pocket Book that I recently purchased. It reprints Cap #s 111-119 (it does not reprint the first Steranko issue, curiously) and contains the stories when Rick Jones was trying hard to be Bucky. It's pretty painful, both in the way Rick goes about it and in the way Cap trains him and then acts/reacts toward him. I have to think that Stan intended for that to be an experiment only. Now, whether or not the Falcon was on the radar months ahead of time I cannot say; it would also seem that the Rick Jones/Captain Marvel relationship was percolating behind the scenes. But the Bucky revival seemed destined to fail.

But it's interesting to read those stories right after having read The Winter Soldier. Not only is there a ton of interplay between Cap and SHIELD (and notably with Agent 13), but AIM is in there, too. So the whole espionage angle is on full display. And of course the Red Skull is there with the Cosmic Cube. So just by coincidence, I'm reading what turns out to be similar material, but written 45 years apart!