CIVIL WAR: FULLY SPOILED EDITION!!
WARNING: SPOILERS AHEAD!!!
Karen: That's right kids, it's time to discuss this blockbuster, no-holds-barred, say what you will! First up, me and my co-host Doug are going to get things rolling with our thoughts on the film, and then it's up to you to keep it going.
Karen: Regarding the two camps, the leaders in both cases aren't seeing things straight. Cap is blinded by his friendship for, and guilt over, Bucky. He's willing to do anything for him. He also has a huge distrust of authority since coming out of the ice, after the incidents in Avengers and Winter Soldier. So it's not surprising that he doesn't think it's a great idea to allow the most powerful fighting force on Earth to be directed by a group of politicians. As he says in the film, "What if they want to send us somewhere we shouldn't go? Or they won't let us go somewhere we should?" However, he never tries to work with anyone. When Bucky is in trouble, he just goes off and does his thing.
Doug: For the first time in six films, I felt empathy toward Tony Stark. Prior to that, he was just sort of a rich jerk who I couldn't relate to. You know, I saw some criticism online of the computer generated Stark family scene. I loved it. I thought that really added to the characterization of Tony Stark, and to the greater MCU. While not directly mentioned, it did bring Hank Pym's comment in Ant-Man about Howard Stark into the light. I also found myself not caring for Bucky Barnes by the end of the film. Brainwashing or not, he's going to need some rehabilitation in order to bring me back.
Karen: Both Howard and Tony have huge egos and just always think they are right. The scene in the Raft prison, where Tony walks in and Hawkeye says derisively, "The Futurist! He knows what's best for you!" really nails it. In Tony's mind, everything he does, whether it's building Ultron or signing the Accords, is the best possible path. But Tony has miscalculated a lot over the years.
Karen: Now Tony finally admits that maybe he isn't always right -but once he decides the Avengers should sign the Accords, he can't see the other side of it. Although he desperately wants Cap to side with him. And of course, by the end, he's taking matters into his own hands again, breaking the Accords to help Steve, at least briefly.
Karen: I thought most of the other characters got at least one good moment, if not several. I am more and more impressed with Black Widow -she truly deserves her own film. Her moves in the opening action sequence manage to be both graceful and brutal! It's amazing. And I appreciate the fine line she walks between Tony and Steve.
Doug: I'm really unsure what to make of the use of Giant-Man. On the one hand, "Heck yeah!!" But then it seemed as if he moved in slow motion the entire scene, which really made the character less than formidable. But there were some cool visuals, like grabbing and holding Rhodey by the legs, and breaking off and swinging the airplane wing. And speaking of cool visuals, how about the Vision phasing into Wanda's room near the beginning of the movie? That brought a big smile to my face. I liked the way the Vision was portrayed and thought he got some great screen time. Hawkeye seemed a bit short-changed -- and even when he had the chance to call himself "Hawkeye", he said "My name is Clint." Why run from it?
Karen: I figured you would love the Giant-Man sequence! Yes, he moved a bit slowly, but I think it heightens the sense of his size. I loved Paul Rudd laughing maniacally when he grew! And everyone freaking out about it! It was just perfect. There was the right mix of serious and light-hearted in this fight.
Doug: Maybe my reservations about the movie lay in a line of dialogue during the big airport battle. When the Widow and Hawkeye engaged hand-to-hand, they fell to the ground and Natasha remarked, "We're still friends, right?" Well that seemed from then on like it was really stupid and unnecessary. And I had to wonder -- actually I hoped -- if everyone was pulling their punches.
Karen: I sort of assumed there would be a lot holding back -these people are friends or at least co-workers. I didn't believe they would be trying to kill one another. Well, except for Black Panther. He definitely was. What did you think of how he looked, and how Chadwick Boseman played him? I thought it was spot on.
Karen: My overall impression of the the film is that I enjoyed it, but it does seem a bit over-stuffed. Somehow, despite all of the characters and places and plot threads, it still feels like Captain America's story is the core of the film, but there is an awful lot of other stuff going on around that.
Doug: I enjoyed it too, but I am having guilt feelings because I didn't walk out of the theater giddy as I was when I saw The Avengers, or Captain America: the First Avenger or Captain America: Winter Soldier. I think Civil War ultimately makes my top 5 MCU films, but I can't put my finger on exactly why I haven't had puppy love butterflies. It is a dense film with tons of characters, as you say, but I didn't ever feel that the film was hampered by that. If anything, it seemed to effectively serve the purpose of the plot.
Karen: I hear you. I wasn't as pumped up at the end of this one either, but I think that's natural - we've just seen our heroes torn apart. It's not a happy ending. Maybe it's a bit like that feeling from when we first saw The Empire Strikes Back - everything has fallen apart and how are our heroes going to recover? Well, we know they will somehow get back together to face Thanos for The Infinity War.
Karen: I hear you. I wasn't as pumped up at the end of this one either, but I think that's natural - we've just seen our heroes torn apart. It's not a happy ending. Maybe it's a bit like that feeling from when we first saw The Empire Strikes Back - everything has fallen apart and how are our heroes going to recover? Well, we know they will somehow get back together to face Thanos for The Infinity War.
Doug: Agreed. I've also seen the Russos refer to this pic as their "Empire...", and there is that sense of uncertainty at the end of this. I'm thinking the first Infinity War movie (or whatever they are going to call it) is going to be a major butt-kicking. My guess is that it will be the darkest film of the MCU.
Karen: The conflict -whether or not to sign the Accords, to accept the authority of the world's governments, or to keep their autonomy - is clouded by the issue of Bucky and his guilt or innocence in the Vienna bombing (and later, his assassination of the Starks). I sort of wish they'd kept Bucky out of the whole thing and kept the discord about the whether or not to sign the accords, and maybe the idea that they were holding some superhumans against their will (like Wanda). But I suppose they needed to resolve the Winter Soldier storyline, and grafting that onto Civil War worked out.
Doug: It did work out, and I viewed the Vienna incident as the last straw that pushed everything over the edge. One element from the Accords and Bucky storylines being mashed together was the character trait of loyalty in Captain America - loyalty to freedom (or his interpretation of it) and to Bucky. However, and we've said this before, there is no sense of history between Cap and Bucky in the MCU as there is in the comics. This would have played out much better in the comics because of what we knew for decades. To try to make us care from one film to the next is a bit of a hefty request.
Karen: I think they've done a decent enough job of establishing Bucky as Cap's best buddy -but it kind of bothers me, as I think that's the role the Falcon should have!
Karen: I think they've done a decent enough job of establishing Bucky as Cap's best buddy -but it kind of bothers me, as I think that's the role the Falcon should have!
Doug: There is sometimes a sense of "Captain America and the Falcon", isn't there? Oh, and loved Redwing -- when Sam first used the device I was thinking to myself, "Hmm, just like Redwing would do." And I was right!
Doug: I'd also argue that Wanda's role in the fall-out of the Crossbones battle (by the way - very cool, and loved Crossbones) might have played better in an X-Men picture. The doubt of the nature of her powers and her ability/lack of ability to control them seems to fit in better with anti-mutant hysteria. Of course, she's a Hydra construct now, right? In regard to the Accords, they sort of just drop, don't they? Sure, there's been some history through the past few MCU movies, but there's really no tension in this film as "Thunderbolt" Ross shows up and boom! Sokovia Accords.
Karen: It's interesting that they chose to bring Thunderbolt Ross back as the agent for the Accords. Yes, there wasn't much warning that they were coming, but considering what happened in Sokovia, and perhaps more likely, how badly the politicians would want to control the kind of power the Avengers have, it's no surprise.
Karen: It's interesting that they chose to bring Thunderbolt Ross back as the agent for the Accords. Yes, there wasn't much warning that they were coming, but considering what happened in Sokovia, and perhaps more likely, how badly the politicians would want to control the kind of power the Avengers have, it's no surprise.
Doug: Ross was perhaps a stand-in for Henry Peter Gyrich. Maybe his inclusion was part of an effort to legitimize that second Hulk film.
Karen: Regarding the two camps, the leaders in both cases aren't seeing things straight. Cap is blinded by his friendship for, and guilt over, Bucky. He's willing to do anything for him. He also has a huge distrust of authority since coming out of the ice, after the incidents in Avengers and Winter Soldier. So it's not surprising that he doesn't think it's a great idea to allow the most powerful fighting force on Earth to be directed by a group of politicians. As he says in the film, "What if they want to send us somewhere we shouldn't go? Or they won't let us go somewhere we should?" However, he never tries to work with anyone. When Bucky is in trouble, he just goes off and does his thing.
Doug: The whole "Cap's survivor guilt" is overplayed. While the guilt over surviving the larger War is one thing, guilt and loss over Bucky seems a bit of a stretch. Again, we don't have the longer backstory of not only the War years but of Cap's early years after his revival from suspended animation as we do in the comics. This is one I have a tough time separating and enjoying as an aspect of the MCU. You mention Cap as a loner. I did enjoy the first scene of the film. It's obvious that Cap has trained these Avengers, not unlike he did in the Kooky Quartet era. Fun stuff!
Karen: I always think of part of Cap's guilt over Bucky in the MCU as being his feeling of guilt over what Bucky was turned into -a mindless assassin. If he had been able to save him, none of this -the years of working for Hydra, and all of the crimes and murders he committed -would have occurred. So Cap feels responsible for Bucky's actions, in his own way.
Karen: I always think of part of Cap's guilt over Bucky in the MCU as being his feeling of guilt over what Bucky was turned into -a mindless assassin. If he had been able to save him, none of this -the years of working for Hydra, and all of the crimes and murders he committed -would have occurred. So Cap feels responsible for Bucky's actions, in his own way.
Karen: As for Stark, he is at one of his lowest points. He has split from Pepper, seemingly due to his need to be Iron Man. He's wracked with guilt over the death and damage he's caused by his arrogance. He's ready to hand the reins over to someone else. Downey plays Tony Stark as a man on the edge -he appears about to crack many times in the film, and when he discovers the Winter Soldier killed his parents, he really does, quite effectively.
Karen: Both Howard and Tony have huge egos and just always think they are right. The scene in the Raft prison, where Tony walks in and Hawkeye says derisively, "The Futurist! He knows what's best for you!" really nails it. In Tony's mind, everything he does, whether it's building Ultron or signing the Accords, is the best possible path. But Tony has miscalculated a lot over the years.
Karen: Now Tony finally admits that maybe he isn't always right -but once he decides the Avengers should sign the Accords, he can't see the other side of it. Although he desperately wants Cap to side with him. And of course, by the end, he's taking matters into his own hands again, breaking the Accords to help Steve, at least briefly.
Karen: I thought most of the other characters got at least one good moment, if not several. I am more and more impressed with Black Widow -she truly deserves her own film. Her moves in the opening action sequence manage to be both graceful and brutal! It's amazing. And I appreciate the fine line she walks between Tony and Steve.
Doug: I'm really unsure what to make of the use of Giant-Man. On the one hand, "Heck yeah!!" But then it seemed as if he moved in slow motion the entire scene, which really made the character less than formidable. But there were some cool visuals, like grabbing and holding Rhodey by the legs, and breaking off and swinging the airplane wing. And speaking of cool visuals, how about the Vision phasing into Wanda's room near the beginning of the movie? That brought a big smile to my face. I liked the way the Vision was portrayed and thought he got some great screen time. Hawkeye seemed a bit short-changed -- and even when he had the chance to call himself "Hawkeye", he said "My name is Clint." Why run from it?
Karen: I figured you would love the Giant-Man sequence! Yes, he moved a bit slowly, but I think it heightens the sense of his size. I loved Paul Rudd laughing maniacally when he grew! And everyone freaking out about it! It was just perfect. There was the right mix of serious and light-hearted in this fight.
Doug: Maybe my reservations about the movie lay in a line of dialogue during the big airport battle. When the Widow and Hawkeye engaged hand-to-hand, they fell to the ground and Natasha remarked, "We're still friends, right?" Well that seemed from then on like it was really stupid and unnecessary. And I had to wonder -- actually I hoped -- if everyone was pulling their punches.
Karen: I sort of assumed there would be a lot holding back -these people are friends or at least co-workers. I didn't believe they would be trying to kill one another. Well, except for Black Panther. He definitely was. What did you think of how he looked, and how Chadwick Boseman played him? I thought it was spot on.
Karen: Of course, you know I love me some Vision, and I was immensely pleased with the direction they took with our android Avenger in this film. He's logical, he's measured -and he's also undeniably falling for Wanda. I just wonder though if it will be reciprocated?
Doug: Vision cooking was priceless. And speaking of Vizh, am I wrong that the only time we see his density increase is when Wanda manipulates his mass and makes him sink? We saw flight and phasing, but I don't recall the ol' "hard as a diamond" schtick.
Karen: I don't know about another example of his super-heavy form, but his hard as a diamond form was used when Giant-Man kicked a bus at Panther and Vision just stood there in front of it and it shredded around him. That was quick but awesome. Really, he's so powerful, he could handle most of Cap's team himself.
Doug: I guess that went right past me. That airport scene, once it lands on YouTube, will be one replayed for the ages. Sort of like the Thor/Hulk battle in The Avengers and the elevator scene in Winter Soldier.
Doug: So back to the Panther. He was just another in a long line of "gettin' it right" from these MCU creators. I mean, go back to Tuesday's characterization question... Can you think of an egregious "miss" in the MCU? Sure, they're for the most part playing these characters as their Ultimate universe selves. but we continue to come to them the first time "knowing" them. I really liked the Panther costume, and didn't mind that it was made of vibranium -- for all I know, that's true in today's comics. No clue. But the bullet-proof capability, coupled with his speed and agility (by the way, the motorcycle chase scene was a bit far-fetched, even for comics -- the Flash wasn't the one running, you know) make him a very special hero.
Karen: With Panther, I think we got the regal character we expected, whose rage was held simmering below the surface. I just hope we get to see some of his genius intellect next time around. I hope they don't drop that aspect of the character. Spidey was another delight.For once, he felt like a teenager. Was Spidey essential to the story? No, not at all. But I loved how he was portrayed, I liked how he and Stark played off each other, and I'm looking forward to the Spider-Man film with Marvel at the wheel.
Doug: I totally concur on all things Spider-Man, from the lack of necessity to the plot to Stark's rapport with Peter (and with May). I made a comment on our spoiler-free post last week that this Aunt May is the age she really always should have been. Really, if Stan Lee and Steve Ditko had wanted a frail old woman in Peter's life as an ongoing (and ongoing...) plot device, then he should have been raised by his grandma or great-grandma. Like I said, two of my aunts are only around 12 years older than I, and two others are only slightly younger than my parents. If you reflect on May's depiction in even the earliest issues of Amazing Spider-Man, she has to be in her late 70s. For a 15-year old kid, that's not his aunt. Loved the new costume, the CGI eyes, and the banter. Absolutely smiled out loud (you know what I mean) when Spidey was criticized (by Falcon?) for talking too much during a fight. The display of Peter's strength and agility against much older adversaries was a superb showcase of what is to come. I really can't wait for the reboot to land; everyone knows I'm on record for not liking Andrew Garfield -- looking forward to this breath of fresh air.
Doug: Baron Zemo. Many have complained that he was a wasted villain, or not necessary to the plot. I think an underlying theme in the film was manipulation. And truth, too. The Avengers have been manipulated by Loki, Ultron, Crossbones, and Zemo. They keep being forced into situations where choices need to be made, and generally with consequences that fall outside what our heroes would normally morally choose. So Zemo was, in my opinion, an able catalyst. Granted, he took some chances and got lucky (movie lucky, comic book lucky) that Cap and Bucky followed him to Siberia. Iron Man following them -- calculated or lucky? It's an old trope -- having one's enemies destroy themselves. Zemo nearly pulled it off.
Doug: Baron Zemo. Many have complained that he was a wasted villain, or not necessary to the plot. I think an underlying theme in the film was manipulation. And truth, too. The Avengers have been manipulated by Loki, Ultron, Crossbones, and Zemo. They keep being forced into situations where choices need to be made, and generally with consequences that fall outside what our heroes would normally morally choose. So Zemo was, in my opinion, an able catalyst. Granted, he took some chances and got lucky (movie lucky, comic book lucky) that Cap and Bucky followed him to Siberia. Iron Man following them -- calculated or lucky? It's an old trope -- having one's enemies destroy themselves. Zemo nearly pulled it off.
Karen: I just don't know why they bother calling him Zemo -he has nothing to do with the original villain. That does annoy me a little. But not enough to matter when it comes to my overall enjoyment of the film. I guess I was just hoping that 'Zemo' would have some greater connection to the Marvel universe. But you make a good point -why is it that these heroes are so readily manipulated? And what does that imply when we consider that Thanos is on the way? In comics, heroes are mostly reactive, while villains are the ones initiating action. It's much the same in the films, but the heroes seem to be easily worked into bad situations.
Doug: My assumption was that it was a replication of the Super-Soldier serum. Say, did you count the dead Soviets (man, that sounds like a name for a punk band) in the last scene? Did Zemo indeed slay them all? I was thinking that we might have had the opportunity for the Soviet Super-Soldiers in a future Winter Soldier standalone flick.
Karen: I did count, and it looked to me like we started with five, and ended with five -dead. So I think all of them are dead -at least the ones we saw. But hey, who knows -maybe one will be revived as Deathlok? Oh wait -they already made a super-lame version on the Agents of SHIELD TV show.
Karen: And here's a silly thought: Was having Wanda in a green outfit at the beginning of the movie a tip of the hat to her first appearance in X-Men #4, where the Scarlet Witch was in a green costume on the cover? OK, probably not, but these are the things that rattle through my brain.
Doug: You scientists are so detail oriented. How'd you pick up on that? I got nuthin'. But then, that will give me something to look for if I see the film again. After this discussion, I think I'm even a little more amped for it than when we began. And I'm really anticipating everyone else's views in our comments section.
Karen: Me too, so let's get throw it over to everyone else! And hey, Humanbelly -Bob C. says he's going to revoke your Marvel Nerd card if you haven't seen Civil War by now, so for your sake, I sure hope you can report in!
Doug: No hood, no Adhesive X, no Zemo as far as
I'm concerned. But again, I thought as a plot point the character's presence
was fine.
Karen: I also felt there were deeper machinations at work: what was it that Howard Stark had in his car that the Winter Solider took from him? It looked like five bags of some sort of blue-colored plasma. This was apparently then given to the Russian soldiers to create more winter soldiers. Was this another version of the super soldier formula that SHIELD was working on? Will we ever learn more about that?
Karen: I also felt there were deeper machinations at work: what was it that Howard Stark had in his car that the Winter Solider took from him? It looked like five bags of some sort of blue-colored plasma. This was apparently then given to the Russian soldiers to create more winter soldiers. Was this another version of the super soldier formula that SHIELD was working on? Will we ever learn more about that?
Doug: My assumption was that it was a replication of the Super-Soldier serum. Say, did you count the dead Soviets (man, that sounds like a name for a punk band) in the last scene? Did Zemo indeed slay them all? I was thinking that we might have had the opportunity for the Soviet Super-Soldiers in a future Winter Soldier standalone flick.
Karen: I did count, and it looked to me like we started with five, and ended with five -dead. So I think all of them are dead -at least the ones we saw. But hey, who knows -maybe one will be revived as Deathlok? Oh wait -they already made a super-lame version on the Agents of SHIELD TV show.
Karen: And here's a silly thought: Was having Wanda in a green outfit at the beginning of the movie a tip of the hat to her first appearance in X-Men #4, where the Scarlet Witch was in a green costume on the cover? OK, probably not, but these are the things that rattle through my brain.
Doug: You scientists are so detail oriented. How'd you pick up on that? I got nuthin'. But then, that will give me something to look for if I see the film again. After this discussion, I think I'm even a little more amped for it than when we began. And I'm really anticipating everyone else's views in our comments section.
Karen: Me too, so let's get throw it over to everyone else! And hey, Humanbelly -Bob C. says he's going to revoke your Marvel Nerd card if you haven't seen Civil War by now, so for your sake, I sure hope you can report in!