Tales of Asgard: Journey into Mystery 104 and 105

Tales of Asgard: Journey Into Mystery #104 (May 1964)
"Heimdall, Guardian of the Mystic Rainbow Bridge!"
Writer: Stan Lee
Artist: Jack Kirby
Inker: Don Heck

Karen: This time around, we're focusing on one of Thor's supporting cast, that far-seeing guardian of the Rainbow Bridge, Heimdall. You'll notice the inker on our first tale is Don Heck, and of the various inkers we've seen on these short stories, I'd probably place him in the middle of the pack. He's not bad but I still prefer Colletta far and away on Kirby when it comes to Thor.

Doug:  Karen had mentioned to me in an email after she was done with the framework for this post that we were going to see a "new" inker over Kirby in this story.  I was surprised when I opened the tpb for reading that Heck was on the assignment.  However, after much scrutiny I declare that I really couldn't tell that it was the Dashing One doing the embellishing.  In fact, I'll wager that I could have guaranteed that it wasn't Vinnie, but would have been hard-pressed to identify which of Kirby's other Silver Age inkers I was seeing.  It's Vinnie all the way for me as well.

Karen: This tale tells us how Heimdall became the guardian of the Rainbow Bridge. It seems that the enemies of Asgard have been using the bridge to make their attacks upon Asgard, and Odin has decided he must appoint someone to guard it. Makes sense. But as with all things in the godly realms, rather than just look over resumes, Odin has selected three candidates and he summons them before him to make a case for themselves. The first, Agnar the Fierce, demonstrates his powerful lungs by blowing the enchanted dragon horn of Asgard. It's such a powerful blast that it sends the Asgardians running for cover. Agnar says he can warn all of the realm if any foes were to attack. The next candidate, Gotron the Agile, describes how he took down seven storm giants that attacked the realm the previous year. 

Doug:  The Asgardians have nothing on the Inhumans in the exploitation of other races department.  As the Inhumans kept the Alpha Primitives as subservient, here the Asgardians have "a force of trolls" doing repair work on the damaged Bifrost, while in an earlier story we saw Thor journey to Mirmir to encounter a gang of dwarfs, who "forged all the enchanted weapons of Asgard".  Now maybe these little dudes are just good at their various crafts, but it does look a little suspicious when the much-larger Nordic-looking gods are free to make use of the toil of these "little people".

Karen: It seems like Stan used the terms "trolls" and "dwarves" somewhat interchangeably for a while, but yes, your point is well-taken. In the myths the Dwarves did produce awesome goods for the gods but usually there was payment. Here it does have that uncomfortable feeling of the caste system -or worse.

Doug:  I thought Agnar (at first I misread that, and thought I was getting Angar the Screamer!) and Gotron were typical blowhards, while Heimdall displayed a reserved nobility.  Fandral's a blowhard, but he's not all about self-promotion.  And think what these guys were applying for -- am I correct that Heimdall never leaves his post on the Bridge? 

Karen: Finally, Odin turns to Heimdall the Faithful and asks him what he has to say. Heimdall removes his rather large helm and tells his sire that he can sense danger approaching before anyone else can. To prove it, he lies upon the ground and places his ear to the grass. He tells Odin that he can hear a tiny plant starting to sprout in the Hidden Hills. This outrages his two competitors, who accuse him of lying. Odin silences the men, and then sends his gardener out to the hills to check on Heimdall's claim. The gardener is rather rotund and reminded me of Volstagg -but of course he predates that mighty warrior. The gardener goes out to the desolate hills, which had been scorched by a dragon's breath, and is stunned to find a small plant just breaking through the soil. He brings it back to Odin and the All-Father is pleased, but remarks that he has heard that Heimdall has other powers still. The warrior says yes, he can see across time itself, and at this moment, he sees a war party of giants not two days out from Asgard. Odin sends a force of warriors out to check and they come back with the king of the giants in tow. This is all Odin needs to make his decision. He declares Heimdall guardian of the Rainbow Bridge "forever!"

Doug:  OK, so I'm back to a question that I asked two weeks ago.  Do all of the Asgardians have certain powers, and/or are they all the God of This-or-That?  And I'm wondering if Odin was just being conversational when he said he'd "heard" that Heimdall had other powers.  Ya think he'd know!  Maybe omniscience ain't what it used to be...  I really liked, though, this two page explanation of and display of Heimdall's powers.  There have been times throughout comics history when creators have done a nice, yet subtle, job of bringing new readers along.  This explanation fits very organically into the story.  I enjoyed this one -- these short tales are fun.  And I think we've heard some commenters voice concern over the Claremont/Bolton add-ons in the back of Classic X-Men as retconning the classics.  I don't have that sense here -- this is more like an "untold tales" sort of deal, and in my mind does not offend the material either in the front of Journey Into Mystery or any Thor stories that had come before. 

Tales of Asgard: Journey Into Mystery #105 (June 1964)
"When Heimdall Failed!" 
Writer: Stan Lee
Artist: Jack Kirby
Inker: George Bell

Karen: Another story, another inker! This time it's George Bell, aka George Roussos. I wasn't a big fan of his FF work, and I think his inking comes off a bit heavy here, particularly in comparison to Colletta's feathery work. Our story is another Heimdall-centric tale. It begins with King Brimer of the storm giants conspiring with Queen Nedra to attack Asgard. They know that nothing escapes Heimdall though, and must come up with a way to break the realm's defenses. Nedra is apparently some sort of witch or conjurer and she summons up and air elemental -a Vanna -to serve her. She says that even Heimdall will be unable to detect it, and it can move through Asgard, spying for them. The sprite-like creature agrees to serve (not like it has much of a choice) and goes flying off towards Asgard.

Doug:  In the panel at the bottom of page 2, I thought we were seeing the return of the Impossible Man!  The little sprite looked just like Impy!  Are we to assume that Nedra is a giantess?  If she is not, then there were some major problems with scale in the introductory scene.  So we should assume that Heimdall is susceptible to magicks of concealment?  I find that difficult to believe, since he can see across space and time, but I'll roll with it here.

Karen: The Vanna flies towards Heimdall as he stands watch on the bridge. Although he is unable to see it, the warrior feels something is amiss and even swigs his sword in the air, berating himself for acting so oddly. He's gripped with a sense of uncertainty. Meanwhile, the Vanna flies over Asgard, noting the weaponry and troops available to Odin. The little bugger gets so full of himself, he even flies into Odin's royal chambers, where the All-Father is holding a counsel. A messenger arrives and informs Odin that Heimdall says even though he has seen nothing, he feels the realm should be on alert. This concerns Odin, and he focuses his powers. As he does, the Vanna flies past him and the All-Father commands the creature to show himself. The lord of Asgard grabs the sprite in his gauntlet, astounding his men. The creature proclaims his innocence but Odin orders him to be silent. Heimdall is summoned to the chamber. The guardsman is dejected -he tells Odin he has failed and deserves whatever punishment Odin sees fit to give him. But Odin will have none of it. He tells him to rise -he hasn't failed! Even though he couldn't see the Vanna, he sensed the evil creature and risked the scorn and derision of others by reporting his fears to Odin. Odin tells Heimdall that he has a place in his heart second only to Thor. Wow - he really caught Odin on a good day! So Heimdall goes back to guarding the bridge and all is well with Asgard. 

Doug:  Is it just me, or did the Vanna look like a pink sperm making its way around Asgard?  At first I was going to say "segmented worm", but upon further inspection...  As I said last week, I'm always amazed at Kirby's juxtaposition of the archaic and the cosmic when depicting Asgard.  Here we see beings of great power who dress in some stew of Greco-Roman/medieval garb and weaponry, but with these huge laser cannons.  It's a weird sort of awesome.  

Karen: I think that interpretation is all you buddy, but now that you mention it, I do sorta see it...OK, that's kind of disturbing now.

Doug:  Then we have indeed crossed into new territory on the BAB, with the inaugural use of the word "sperm".  I'm glad we've finally gotten that out of the way! 

Doug:  It would be difficult to decide who is the nobler soul -- Balder or Heimdall.  Each is about as selfless as they come.  I loved the depiction of Heimdall in the first Thor movie -- along with the Destroyer, he was one of the real bright spots in that picture. 

Karen: Just as an aside, the final caption of this story is a "personal note" to the readers thanking them for their enthusiasm for these Tales of Asgard. I wonder if this was just more Marvel hyperbole, or if there really were a lot of letters written praising the series? I think these early stories are nice, but the later, continued ones, like the Harokin one, were really something. I'm sure we'll get around to reviewing those eventually. But I wonder now what the actual reader response was?

Doug:  That is indeed an interesting query.  We're troubled by our doubt of that due in no small part to Stan's unabashed promotion of himself and of the company, but we also live in a world where people can gain employment as "paid reviewers" of consumer goods.  One does have to wonder.  But, and I have no insight, my guess is that they did get a positive response to this series.  I know that I really like it!  I can honestly say that in books I read from the Silver and Bronze Ages, I do not at all mind when the feature is only 14-15 pages and a nifty little "extra" was tucked in the back.

Who's the Best... Inker on John Buscema?

Doug:  Given my love affair with the artwork of Big John Buscema, and given our love-in over his work on Avengers #56 just yesterday, and also given that in September I intend to showcase his first two issues on the monthly Conan the Barbarian, I thought it would be fun if we discussed the many men (and women?  I don't know, other than his grandaughter, Stephanie) who've put brush over his pencils.  Who did you think was a great match, who wasn't, what were some memorable jobs, and so forth.  I know this one should be lively, weekend aside.  Just in preview of those Conan reviews next month, issue #25 is inked by Sal Buscema and John Severin, and #26 by Ernie Chan.  The two books side-by-side could not look more different...

Doug:  For those of you curious or without that trained eye, the Avengers cover was inked by Tom Palmer, the Thor page by Tony DeZuniga, and the King Conan splash by Ernie Chan.

Stepbrothers -- Fantastic Four #26

Fantastic Four #26 (May 1964)
"The Avengers Take Over!"
Stan Lee-Jack Kirby/George Bell

Doug: Welcome to the conclusion of our foray into the Silver Age Thing/Hulk tussles. Today's review actually brings to six the number of such brawls we've reviewed. The LinkWithin feature below this post should take you to at least five of them. Well, no sense delaying further, so it's on to the feature!

Doug: When we left off two weeks ago, Brother Benjie had been summarily trounced by the much larger and much stronger Hulk. The Green Goliath was in Manhattan, looking for the Avengers. Since he'd found out that Captain America had "replaced" him on the team, he was hellbent on exacting some revenge. Funny, though -- I don't recall that the Hulk left in a state of mind such that he'd care that he'd been replaced. By the way, the release of Fantastic Four #26 coincides with Avengers #5, Cap's second issue with the team.

Karen: It's just like the guy who dumps a girl, but then gets all upset when she starts dating somebody else.

Doug: As we get back into today's action, Ben has caught up to the Hulk and immediately engages him. As we saw last time, Ben is able to stay ahead of the Hulk by using his superior intellect as well as the agility and speed his smaller frame allows him. Even as the Hulk pounds Ben literally into the ground, the Thing responds with a forceful shower of crushed rock which temporarily blinds his adversary. Stan then gives new readers (and forgetful ones alike) a quick rehashing of just why the rest of the Four are not present for this skirmish. Reed is still suffering from the virus he contracted last issue (while trying to find a way to change the Thing back to his Ben Grimm form), Sue is at the Baxter Building to assist the doctors, and Johnny is in the hospital with wounds from an ill-advised solo attack on the Hulk last issue. I had to laugh at the use of all of the asbestos around Johnny. You wouldn't get away with that today!

Karen: I'm sure the other patients in the ward could file a lawsuit. Even though Ben is an honorable guy, he's not above occasionally fighting dirty, as in this bit with the dirt in Hulk's eyes. I love the fact that Lee and Kirby show us TV camera crews up on the roof tops, filming everything. It was just another touch of realism that they brought to comics.

Doug: How about the amount of and size of the equipment that the reporters are using? It's a bit more cumbersome than an iPhone or a Flip camera, ya think?

Doug: Johnny feels well enough to get out of bed, and once shedding his pajamas (whoa, whoa, whoa -- do you suppose his backside had been hanging out of that gown?), he flames away and finds our combatants. Ben doesn't want his help, but the two teammates eventually try to fight together. The Hulk is having none of it, though, and turns a fire hydrant against Johnny. Both our heroes are able to evade the water. The U.S. Army has gathered, and launch a warhead against Jade Jaws. Catching it, the Hulk hurls it into the sky where it detonates; he then gets away.

Karen: I guess we'll have to chalk the Torch's disappearing/reappearing FF uniform to the unstable molecules. When he flames on he suddenly seems to be wearing it. But where in the heck do you get asbestos pajamas? It's typical Ben that he doesn't want Johnny's help, and honestly, Johnny hasn't seemed too effective against the Hulk in any case. But Ben's also shooing him off over his concern for the kid, which was nice to see, as the two spent so much time bickering you could forget that they really liked each other. I was a little surprised that Ben tried to talk the Hulk down -"Why don't you just calm down and let's talk this over?" - but it was kind of refreshing.

Doug: We see the Hulk next in the subway tunnels when the unthinkable happens -- the Hulk commandeers a train, and conducts it himself! Now I don't doubt that Bruce Banner could drive, but this just seemed really weird to me. Chalk that up to our worldview of the Hulk as being the 1970's "dumb Hulk". Anyway, he jumps off the train right under the site of the Avengers Mansion, and enters. It doesn't take him long before he encounters the line-up of that period: Thor, Iron Man, Captain America, Giant-Man and the Wasp, and Rick Jones! The Hulk lunges for Rick, and it's (of course) GAME ON! The rest of the issue is basically one huge battle, and it's for the most part a fun ride. Cut back to the Baxter Building, where Reed's fever has broken. With Reed healed and Johnny still on the mend but at nearly his full strength, the reunited FF head off in search of the Hulk.

Karen: That train sequence seemed really odd to me as well. Did you notice that when the Hulk busts in on the Avengers, it's in a room totally devoid of any details -no furniture or nothing, just a box! There is a lot of that in this issue -no background art. I'm thinking that drawing so many characters probably pushed Kirby, time-wise, and something had to give, so it was the backgrounds. In those tight quarters, the Hulk has the advantage, and he takes off with Rick in tow.

Doug: Let's interlude here for a bit and discuss the Hulk's role through these first three stories we've covered, where he's encountered the major heroes (sans Spider-Man and Dr. Strange at this point) of the Marvel Universe. Are you seeing him as a tragic or sentimental character? I am not. I'm seeing "dangerous", "unpredictable", and perhaps even "menace". I know General "Thunderbolt" Ross has a reputation as a blowhard with a short fuse, but I'm thinking that if I were in his national security role I'd be eager to destroy the Hulk as well. If all I had to go on was his public persona in these early stories, then he should have been blasted off to the moon (or wherever).

Karen: No, I think your perception is spot-on. The Hulk is really dangerous and wild at this point -maybe worse than later on because he actually still has most of his wits about him. He's not the 'misunderstood' character we grew up with in the 70s. I'm assuming that they had to soften his personality and make him more sympathetic when he starred in his own feature. I have some of those old Tales to Astonish (and of course the reprints in Marvel Super-Heroes too) and I would say it was a slow transition from the more brutal version to the 'gentle giant' we got later on. I sort of like him with an edge, but here, he's just a raving nut.

Doug: The Wasp is able to trail the Hulk, and attacks him by getting into his ear. The buzzing almost drives him mad, but he's able to bang the other side of his head like a swimmer would and dislodge the tiny heroine. The rest of the Avengers show up and it's Captain America who engages the Hulk first. What a hero -- this is why you always root for Cap. He's fearless, he leads tactically, and he leads by example. But of course this is a Marvel mag, and nothing ever goes as simply as it might. The FF arrive at the same time things are heating up and of course begin tripping all over their counterparts. The Hulk had to be laughing at the ineptitude of all of these heroes. As Iron Man and Reed argue, the Hulk grabs Rick again and leaps away to an under-construction skyscraper.

Karen: There's some great gags here, with Iron Man getting caught in Mr. Fantastic's lasso arm, Giant Man jumping in the path of Invisible Girl's force field, and let's not forget the Thing getting thumped by Thor's hammer. It made perfect sense -with that many super-powered folks around, somebody's going to be in the way. Then, when Hulk gets away, the Avengers and FF start arguing with each other over which team is going to go after him -now that's a Marvel comic! Eventually, Thor and The Thing make peace and the rest follow suit.

Doug: It's Captain America who again makes the best impression when attacking the Hulk, but probably the best visual is the battle between ol' Purple Pants and Hank Pym. And in the end, the strongest being on the planet is done in by ants. And by Rick Jones and an anti-gamma pill. Hey, how about that -- Rick saved the universe long before the Kree/Skrull War! As the Hulk staggers toward the river to stop the itching of the ants, he also begins to change back to Banner. And as he disappears below the surface of the water, the two teams of heroes basically just retreat to whatever it is they needed to do. No search, no debriefing, just fini.

Karen: Cap uses judo against the Hulk -you would just never see that today!

Doug: Sheesh -- even with judo, do you really think he could flip 1000 lbs?

Karen: Of course, the Hulk of the modern comics is far more powerful than the Hulk we have here. But it gave me a chuckle when I saw that. Giant-Man's rapid size changing seemed to throw Hulk for a loop, but I'd worry that he'd just get angrier. But aren't we all lucky that Rick carried around a gamma ray pill? Hey, if that thing was radioactive, and he kept it in his pants pocket all this time...well, maybe there's a reason Rick never had kids!

Doug: This issue had to be a pain-in-the-butt to draw with so many characters, but Kirby lets it all hang out. There is energy, dynamism, and power on every page -- Jack really delivered the goods. This two-parter would have made a great Annual, and certainly today would have been a crossover between the two teams' books. If I have any complaints at all, it's that too much time was spent on Iron Man's powers, and Thor was a total non-factor. Of course, given his real power, Stan and Jack had to keep the God of Thunder on the sidelines. Overall, I'd give this story a B+ -- Kirby would hit his stride just less than two years later once he and Joe Sinnott began to click.

P.S. -- Doug: Don't you think Kirby was "aping" himself on the FF cover above, as he'd drawn an oh-so-similar pose just a month earlier?

Stepbrothers -- Fantastic Four #25

Fantastic Four #25 (April 1964)
"The Hulk vs. The Thing!"
Stan Lee-Jack Kirby/George Bell

Karen: I think we all felt a little cheated with Fantastic Four #12; we really didn't get the knock-down, drag-out fight we all wanted to see between the Hulk and the Thing. Well, get ready, because here it comes!

Karen: I have to say, I'm always taken back by how crude Kirby's art was at this stage. Although the dynamism is there, it is rough and, at times, I almost can't look at it. But the story still proves to be an exciting one.

Doug: Certainly we're not too far removed from the Atlas era, and I think Jack's art was stuck there. But as we all know, those pencils would enjoy a meteoric rise once under the influence of Vinnie Colletta and Joe Sinnott (although Vinnie was not a good fit for Kirby on the FF).

Karen: As I mentioned in a comment on another post the other day, it's like night and day once Sinnott started regularly inking Kirby. I like Colletta on Thor, but agree he was not the best fit for Kirby on FF. That was Sinnott. So, on with our story: we start at the Baxter Building, where Reed is trying to get the Thing to drink a serum he has "accidentally" developed, and which he believes will transform his friend back into Ben Grimm forever. But the obstinate Thing refuses to take it -he instead smashes it! Reed is furious with Ben, but Ben fears that his girlfriend Alicia loves the Thing, not Ben.
Doug: How about that opening splash, with Ben literally climbing the walls, and what the heck was Sue doing on the floor? Additionally, we see Johnny make a flame lasso -- that was a gimmick Kirby had employed in our previous review of FF #12. It's interesting that Ben's insecurities in these days oscillate between manifestations of rage, self-loathing, and intense depression. His character was really being molded in these first two years.
Karen: Who should show up but Alicia, carrying the day's paper. It says that the Avengers are seeking the Hulk, who has disappeared and been replaced by Captain America. Cut to New Mexico, where the green goliath carjacks a truck. Curled up in the back, the Hulk transforms back into - Bob Banner? Yes, Bob Banner! Hey, you try writing a whole line of comics and keeping all the names straight. After fleeing a road block, Banner agonizes over why he keeps turning into the Hulk -and then turns into the Hulk, and jumps off in search of his desert lab.

Doug: The only "benefit of the doubt" that I can toss Stan's way is this: wasn't the Hulk's alter ego Robert Bruce Banner? I know in the television series he was David Bruce Banner, but I'm thinking in the Silver Age his first name was at one point Robert. But really, no one caught that? And didn't Stan pound it into the ground in those first few panels?

Karen: If I recall correctly, they added the 'Robert' after this issue, to sort of explain away the mistake. I could be wrong but I thought that was the story. Next we look in on the Avengers, who have been tracking down their former team-mate. They discover the truck he was riding in in New Mexico and wonder what he's up to. Rick Jones comments that the Hulk must be heading back to his lab, which elicits puzzled responses from Cap and Iron Man, who can't imagine the brutish Hulk doing anything that involves brain power. But indeed, the Hulk IS in his lab, and pretty much tearing up the place, due to his hatred of "Bob" Banner. He starts tossing things out of his pockets to rid himself of everything Banner. I had to chuckle when I realized two of the things were a book of matches and a pipe -all brainy types smoke pipes! Hulk is about to toss away a newspaper clipping but pauses to read it (remember -he wasn't an idiot yet) and becomes enraged when he discovers that the Avengers have replaced him with Captain America. Thinking that Rick has also deserted him, the furious brute decides to go to New York and destroy the Avengers.
Doug: The panel sample of Cap and Rick that you've provided is interesting to me -- I assume you snatched it from the FF DVD-ROM. I read this story from the book in which I first saw it -- Marvel's Greatest Superhero Battles (way back in the Origins of Marvel Comics series of tpbs). In that version of this story, Cap's headgear is just that -- it does not extend into his chain mail. Here it looks like he has fabric on his neck. So I was thinking just now that Kirby was drawing Cap as he had back in the War years.
Doug: What did you think about the Hulk bounding all the way from New Mexico to New York City? Tireless, maybe -- but that's almost 3000 miles!
Karen: Hey, he's the strongest one there is! Of course he can do it! Back at the Baxter Building, Reed collapses with a fever. We learn he has been working with viruses! Was there any area of science that Richards didn't excel in? He's like the Professor on Gilligan's Island. Sue and Ben tend to Reed while Johnny heads off in the Fantasticar to get a doctor. Flying over the city, however, he sees the Hulk on a rampage and foolishly decides to take him on. The Torch lands and attacks, but the Hulk shatters the ground and then grabs the Torch -whose flame has grown weak! Boy, it sure seems like Johnny could barely maintain his flame for more than a few minutes back in the early sixties. Johnny apparently passes out.

Doug: So as a plot vehicle, why do you suppose Stan and Jack chose to hold Reed out of the fight? Was it just to show us that Ben could fight on his own without Reed calling all the shots? Johnny was about worthless, wasn't he? Maybe he should have used the flame lasso...

Karen: Yeah, I think all the other FFers were put on the sidelines just so we could have a one on one match-up. I'm always surprised when I read these early issues just how weak certain characters were -mainly the women, but here Johnny as well. I think Iceman also was treated pretty badly early on. I would suppose it is because they are youngsters, but I don't recall Spidey getting that treatment, unless he was sick. The city summons the FF to fight the Hulk, but Ben tells the authorities they need a doctor for Reed. Reed tells both Ben and Sue to go, warning Ben that "The Hulk's strength has never been measured! I'm afraid he's far stronger than you, old friend! You'll need your wits...don't let him grab you..." Ben and Sue jump in a police car (!) and head off to face the Hulk. Johnny is up again, but his flame is still weak -only his hand is aflame - and the Hulk grabs the youngster in one hand and looks ready to hurl him away! Sue surrounds Johnny with a force field but the Hulk jumps high into the air, and Sue passes out from the effort of maintaining the field! It seems that both Storm siblings were fairly limited in their abilities back in the old days. The Thing tells a soldier to take care of Sue, and then goes to face the Hulk -now it's getting good!

Doug: By the way, that was one ugly police car. If memory serves, Sue's force field came around in issue #13 (EDIT: Well, memory doesn't serve. As pointed out by faithful reader/commenter Edo Bosnar, Sue's abilities to make other objects/people invisible, as well as to use her powers to create forcefields, was first shown in Fantastic Four #22. I am getting too old for this...), which was right after the last story we reviewed. So this is a new wrinkle. However, as she'll eventually become arguably the most powerful member of the Four, here she's still Silver Age fodder for Stan's sexism.

Karen: One thing I noticed is that a lot of words are exchanged between our two combatants -I expect that of the Thing but not the Hulk. Of course this was a Hulk that was basically of normal intelligence. Still, I don't expect him to say things like, "Fool! You're just a muscular freak! But I'm the Hulk!" Ben lands the first blow and knocks the Hulk off his feet. Naively, Ben thinks that his best bet is to wear the Hulk out. Boy is he in for a surprise. Ben bobs and weaves like the boxer he is, but ultimately, the Hulk grabs him. As Reed warned, this is not a good thing, as old Greenskin leaps into the air and tosses Ben right at a building. Ben grabs onto the roof edge, only to hang on for dear life as the Hulk rocks the building back and forth! Yes, it's incredibly silly, but fun.

Doug: In the preface to this story (again, in Marvel's Greatest Superhero Battles), Stan does mention that the Hulk is perhaps the Marvel character who has changed the most since his inception. The Man credits writers and artists who came after he and Jack for said evolution, and doesn't besmirch them. What do you think -- change for the better in making the Hulk dumb? I was somewhat amazed throughout this story at how strong the Hulk was portrayed. I know I've read many stories of him doing impossible feats, but there was a real sense of hopelessness for Ben in this tale. And yes, that was one tough building. Sheesh...

Karen: The Hulk of my youth was indeed the childlike, 'dumb' Hulk, so that was all I knew. But when I began to read older stories I really appreciated the non-dumb version more. I think the writers of the dumb Hulk were very limited with what they could do with him. It seems to me that a lot of his stories tended to revolve more around his supporting cast. I think there's more options with the normal intelligence, tough guy Hulk.

Karen: Ben decides to just let gravity work for him and lets go of the building, planning to crash down on the Hulk. But the Hulk is faster than he thinks and once again takes hold of him, this time stuffing him through a manhole. Unknown to the Hulk however, Ben is right next to a thick electrical cable, and he uses it to shock his foe momentarily. But nothing stuns the Hulk for long. Across town, Reed struggles to get to his feet, hearing of the battle from the TV newscast. He bemoans the fact that the Hulk is too strong for Ben, but there's nothing he can do about it. I like the way he's drawn here, with his arm elongated but in a weird S shape. He really looks out of it.

Doug: Agreed. Despite the sometimes clumsy-looking art, Reed's illness is well-played. By the way, as you've mentioned the art at the top, I'd add that in this issue Ben really seems like he's at his Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe-listed height of 6'0". However, he's not bulky at all! C'mon, Jack -- feed the boy!

Karen: For some crazy reason, the Yancy Street Gang decides the best way to help out the Thing is to roll a truck down a hill at the Hulk. However, although the Hulk gets knocked into the bed of the runaway pickup, so does the Thing, and the two of them wind up in the river. Ben manages to swim to a motor boat and take off, giving him some time to figure out a new plan. He thinks he's lost the Hulk, but suddenly a huge green fist comes up through the boat! The two of them wind up at the George Washington Bridge and Ben manages to wrap a huge cable around the Hulk, temporarily immobilizing him. But Ben now realizes that although he is nearly exhausted, the Hulk keeps getting stronger. The Hulk strains and snaps the cable, and pounds Ben down to the ground. Then he takes off, saying he's going to find the Avengers.

Doug: I guess it was never said exactly in what part of the city the battle played out, but that truck from Yancy Street rolled a potentially very long way!

Karen: Picking himself painfully up, the Thing is stunned by his defeat. "He beat me! That big, brainless, muscle-bound creep beat me!! It...it...never happened before!" Shaking off his shame, the Thing bravely heads back to face the Hulk. So here in this early tale, we're seeing the situation that would continue even to today: The Thing as the never-say-die underdog in his match-ups against the more powerful Hulk.

Doug: Ben Grimm, the original Rocky Balboa... love it!