Discuss: If Retcons Were True Back Then

Doug: Last Friday afternoon our friend Aaron Meyers (@Aaronmeyers) posted the cover of Marvel Two-In-One #11 as one of his recent acquisitions. I immediately tweeted back at him, wondering if the retcon of Ben Grimm being Jewish would have made a difference in that story told 40+ years ago. So of course, that got me to thinking of other retcons that we know about and how certain stories, storylines, or elements of characterization would have been played differently.

The floor is open for nominations and discussion. Go!

Inaugural Post: The Ever-Changing Blue-Eyed Thing

Doug: Ever have an idea percolating in your brain for... forever? This is that. For many months I've been wanting to do something on the blog with one of the greatest aspects of the end of the Bronze Age and beyond. In the early-mid 1980s Marvel Comics published a periodical encyclopedia called The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe; the Distinguished Competition's entry in the genre was the equally entertaining Who's Who in the DC Universe. There is a nearly bottomless mine of good stuff for us to discuss, so we'll see if today's inaugural foray gets any kind of commenter love. And I don't want to hog this idea -- if anyone reading wants to submit a post in this vein, by all means email us.

Doug: Below you'll find the entry for the Thing, as it appeared in the second volume (1986) of The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe:

Doug: My focal point for today's discussion is the height of Benjamin J. Grimm. From the moment I first laid eyes on this issue of the Handbook I was a little skeptical as to the accuracy of whatever tape measure was used to check the Thing's height. However, doing a quick image search for the purpose of researching my accusation that something must have been amiss, I found that by and large through the Silver and Bronze Ages the Thing was drawn at about the same height as Reed Richards. In the Handbook, Ben Grimm is listed at an even 6'0", while Reed Richards is a bit taller at 6'1". See the images below from superstar FF creators Jack Kirby, Joe Sinnott, and John Buscema. Nowhere do we find the Thing towering over his teammates --

Doug: Additionally, we can use the Hulk for comparison's sake. From the earliest days of the "splash tops" that ran on page one of Bronze Age Marvel Comics, we knew what we were dealing with in terms of the Hulk's massive scale:

Doug: And here are some visuals in support of the Thing's "diminutive" stature:

Doug: Going hand-in-hand with the Thing's relatively short height is his weight of "only" 500 pounds. So at 6'0", 500 pounds, the Thing is certainly not imposing in the presence of She-Hulk's 6'7" height, Thor at 6'6" and 640 pounds, or even Captain America (6'2", 220 lbs.). But then the "Image era" began and Benjy grew... and grew... and grew (please excuse the glorification of Sue's assets (ahem) -- after all, it was the 1990s):

Doug: Obviously there are many more points of interest in the Thing's biography. But today let's center on the man's scale, particularly as compared to his fellow denizens of the Marvel Universe. How's that stature? Too small for you? In the Fantastic Four films of a few years ago, featuring Michael Chiklis made up as the Thing, Ben was no taller than his male teammates. But then, what of some of the latter samples I posted -- too large? In the FF film from last year, the CGI Thing seemed more in line with the art above. That being said, I suppose Ben would still be in scale with the Hulk, as ol' Jade Jaws is now never depicted on film as shorter than 10 feet (or so it seems). Have at it, and thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Some Thing Ain't Right Here....

Karen: I'm presenting this without comment, because I'm sure you'll all know exactly what to say about it...

BAB Firsts - It's a Fine Line: The Thing in the Bronze Age

Doug: Karen and I would like to start a new series where we look at some of our favorite characters as depicted by some of our favorite artists. Of course Karen has expressed her love recently for the Bashful One, so we thought we'd kick this off with a look at Benjamin J. Grimm, as seen throughout the Bronze Age of Comics.

Doug: To commence, we have to discuss the King himself, Jack Kirby.

Karen: I like how the Thing's look became more refined over time. He went from looking lumpy and almost soft to the more solid, rocky hero we all know and love. How much of this, I wonder, was also due to the inkers involved?

Doug: The image at left is indeed inked by the stalwart of the Fantastic Four strip, Joe Sinnott. I think it goes without saying that Sinnott's inks added polish and depth to Kirby, really texturing Jack's pencils. I mean, look at that picture -- it looks like Ben's skin is made of rocks!

Doug: Next up was the Jazzy One, John Romita.

Karen: He was on the strip for such a short time period, it's almost easy to forget he was there! Just 4 issues -103 to 106. Although Romita seems able to draw any character well, I don't think his style was especially suited to the Thing, although his take on Ben was certainly acceptable.

Doug: I think the fact that John Verpoorten inked Romita for most of his short tenure might lead to the less-than-memorable memories! I believe Sinnott only inked him on his last issue. I've read before that Romita was not satisfied with his work, and part of that was his insecurity from following Kirby's run.

Karen: I've read the same thing, and it certainly makes sense! That's a very tough act to follow.

Doug: After Romita's brief tenure on the Fantastic Four, Big John Buscema took the reins of the World's Greatest Comic Magazine.

Karen: Now we're talking! In my mind, John Buscema is the Thing King! It probably has to do with the fact that he was the artist on the FF when I started reading it.

Doug: I actually have the original art to the sample at left, and it's just beautiful. Buscema's facial expressions on this page really convey first Ben's irritation, then his determination during this battle against the Miracle Man. I also like that Buscema really gives Ben some bulk, but as I'd remarked during our Marvel Two-In-One posts, kept Ben within that six-feet tall range of height.

Karen: That's definitely how I think of Ben -as bulky, heavy, but not particularly tall. I agree with you, he is frequently drawn too tall nowadays -but then so is the Hulk. As always, Buscema is a master of facial expressions and body language, able to easily convey Ben's emotions, despite his monstrous appearance.

Doug: Following Buscema was the sometimes dubious run of Rich Buckler.

Karen: I feel badly for Buckler. I believe he was told to emulate Kirby early on in his career. It's unfortunate because I really like his own style. I'm not even going to get into the swipes issue here. But he did a good job on the Thing.

Doug: I've included parts of two pages from FF #159 that really show off Buckler's finer effort. You know, the larger panel on the far right brings up a point -- how do you like Ben's exterior to be drawn? Large rocks (like here), or small (as in the Buscema image above)?

Karen: Hmm, I haven't really considered it, but I can tell you this: I notice when I feel that the rocks are not drawn properly. I think it's actually a fairly difficult drawing challenge -how do you get across the idea that he's composed of those crazy, interlocking rocks? How do you shadow them? Are they flat or do they project slightly? I think some artists and inkers can pull it off, and some just can't.

Doug: After Buckler, the FF were penciled by George Perez.

Karen: Can Perez draw anything bad? I don't think so! His runs on FF were beautiful, and he brings a lot of character to his version of Ben.

Doug: The sample I chose for George Perez comes from his earliest stint, and from a period I just loved -- the exoskeleton era that followed the Thing/Hulk two-parter. Perez seemed to have a way of making the Thing somewhat bulbous, which is not a bad thing. Funny -- if you've ever seen the book How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way, I really think Perez actually draws Ben the very way Big John Buscema instructs! I'd also argue that, again early on, Perez echoed Buckler's later work (after he got away from his Kirby-ish phase).

Karen: Perez' Thing was maybe a little more streamlined than some of the others, but still had the expressiveness and mass that I like.

Doug: Keith Pollard was the successor to Perez. I'll say here that when I read these issues off the newsstand/spinner racks, I thought Pollard's art was quite good. Looking at these issues again after 30 years, he's certainly not bad -- quite serviceable in fact. But being sandwiched between George Perez and John Byrne? That would be tough for anyone! I did like the story that Pollard illustrated, when the FF were on the outs -- there were four solo issues followed by a good Doc Doom story that culminated with issue #200. Pollard really drew some dynamic scenes in the series.

Karen: Pollard is probably the most overlooked Thing artist. He had a very solid style, not especially flashy, but very good nonetheless.

Doug: John Byrne's first stint on the title extended from issue #209 to #221 and was initially dominated by Joe Sinnott's inks. However, Byrne later changed the way he interpreted the Thing, bringing him back to his lumpy origins. We've provided two samples here -- the panels to the left were inked by Joe Sinnott, and the panels below to the right were inked by Byrne himself. In fact, our latter example is from the story when the Thing did indeed return to his original Kirby-style form.

Karen: Byrne 's run is of course highly regarded and I think his Thing always looked great, although I was not fond of the return to the lumpy version. However, I've always felt that Byrne was his own worst inker, and I prefer Sinnott's inks to Byrne's. But either way, his Thing is a big brute, which I like. Sometimes though, Byrne's Ben seems to be extremely round -have you ever noticed that?

Karen: Speaking of Sinnott, shouldn't we remark on the man who was with Ben the longest? His inking brought a certain continuity to Ben and the FF regardless of who the penciller was at the time. His version of the FF is indelibly marked in my brain, the same way Terry Austin's contribution to the X-Men has shaped how I see those characters forever.
Doug: There is no mistaking that, in spite of the heavy hitters who've put pencil to paper on the FF, Joe Sinnott is the magazine's most valuable player. He really provided a pretty seamless reading experience. I'd argue that the only time the art on the book seemed to lack were the issues when Sinnott was not present. I'd say that even for Byrne's highly-regarded second stint on the book. No doubt it's classic -- but could it have been even moreso with Sinnott on board?
Karen: How about Ron Wilson? He drew Ben over in Marvel Two In One for many years. Perhaps his most memorable work was in Marvel Two In One Annual #7, when the Thing battled the Champion. He seemed to really 'get' the Thing, and did some very good work on the title.

Doug: Wilson's a solid guy, and perfect for the team-up style books. I always felt like he gave a great effort on those books.
Karen: There's been a lot of other artists who have drawn the Thing as a guest star in other titles. A couple that come to mind are Neal Adams and Jim Starlin. It's hard to get a real impression of Adams' Thing, as I only recall seeing it in The Avengers during the Kree-Skrull War. I would say his version is OK, but there are a number of other artists that I feel do a better job. Surprising, as Adams is right up there in my personal favorites of comic book artists.

Doug: I wonder what a Neal Adams commissioned sketch of Ben would look like? I know Adams would give it his all...

Karen: I think regular readers know that Jim Starlin is a comics god to me, but...his Thing looks a little, I don't know, off to me. It's not bad, but for some reason it just doesn't quite look like the Thing to me. The two panels here are taken from Marvel Two In One Annual # 2. The bulk is right...maybe it's the legs. I can't put my finger on it.

Doug: I'm with you, though on the image at left -- the arms and legs seem just a bit off.

Karen: OK Doug, I know this isn't Bronze Age, but what do you think of Alex Ross' Thing, shown here from Marvels? I have to say I like it. He looks thick and bulky, and his rocks/scales are all so defined. And look at those big ol' hands!

Doug: I'm sure by now our readers know that we collaborate on these posts by coming to Blogger at different times to make our posts/edits. So they might be surprised at the level of same-mind that we sometimes have -- I literally had thought of the very image you posted at right, and when I next logged in here to see what your last work had been about here it was! Ah, yes -- great minds... And no, Alex Ross doesn't draw anything poorly!

BAB Firsts (Karen's 1st 5X to Love post): Five Films to Love

This post was originally published on August 3 2009

Hi, Karen here, picking up where Doug left off with my five films to love. To be honest, I don’t have a top 10 list or anything like that. It would be difficult for me to narrow down my favorites in any kind of list, as I find my tastes seem to change like my moods. But there are many films that I will, as Doug says, stop and watch when I see them, regardless of how many times I may have seen them before. So without any further ado, here are five films that I have enjoyed and would recommend to anyone.

1. The Great Escape, 1963.

So much has been said about this film already, I don’t know what I can add to it. It features wonderful actors, like Steve McQueen, James Garner, Donald Pleasance, and Charles Bronson. It has an involving, suspenseful plot, and exciting action sequences.

My thoughts on the film are always colored by my initial viewing, which was with my father. I was in my late teens and we sat up one Saturday night and watched it together. I went in to it dubious about whether I would like it or not. But I came out loving it. I think part of the appeal is the fact that while some of the soldiers do escape from the German camp, many do not, and this realism, this honesty, was appreciated.

2. The Blues Brothers, 1980.

When I first saw this film, I thought it was a mess. I still do, but now it is an entertaining mess. It’s funny as hell, chock full of people you will recognize, and filled with wonderful music. And did I mention car crashes? It has lines that I’ve never forgotten, like “I hate Illinois Nazis”. It’s also one of the best films John Belushi did in his unfortunately short life.

It’s hard to explain to younger people now what Belushi meant to those of us who grew up with him. Sure, he was a comedian, but even more, he was a symbol of rebelliousness and anarchy that teenagers always gravitate towards. The other thing about Belushi was that he was not a good-looking movie star type – in fact he was a fat slob. But he was still cool. That gave all of us a little hope.

3. The Thing, 1982.

I have to preface this by saying that I love the original Howard Hawks film. However, John Carpenter’s version had more staying power for me because of the ability of the alien to assume, or even take over, the identity of others. This results in Carpenter’s version topping out on the paranoia-meter. Kurt Russell and a small army of character actors (including loveable ol’ curmudgeon Wilford Brimley) give very realistic performances. Probably my favorite scene is when Russell’s character tests the humanity of his fellows by putting a hot wire in samples of their blood. When we finally get to the camouflaged alien, the ensuing chaos is truly frightening. Adding to that are the special effects, which even today I find disturbing.

4. The Three Musketeers, 1973.

This is just a flat-out fun movie, directed by Richard Lester of “A Hard Day’s Night” and “Help” fame. The film succeeds as both a rousing adventure and a slapstick comedy, with more than a hint of bawdiness thrown in. I think I see something new every time I watch it. It has wonderful stars as well: the dashing Michael York, gorgeous Raquel Welch, grim Oliver Reed, the delightful Frank Finlay, as well as Christopher Lee, Richard Chamberlain, Charlton Heston, and Spike Milligan as Welch’s poor husband. Truly a pleasure to watch – just don’t worry about the plot too much.

5. Excalibur, 1981.

This is another mess of a film, yet one that I find irresistible. Before this film came out, every depiction I had seen or read of King Arthur and his knights was one that showed them as gleaming, pristine saints. This film takes Arthur and company and throws them in the mud. It’s full of lust, violence, betrayal, and pettiness – and yet, we still see in Arthur (and also Percival) the very best in mankind. There’s also a distinctly other-worldly feel to it, particularly in the sequences with Merlin, Morgan Le Fay, and “the Dragon’s breath”. As Merlin states, the old world, the world of magic, is fading away as “the one god” grows in strength. Yet Merlin accepts this, as Arthur and his men represent a necessary change. Still, one can’t help but feel a bit sad for the loss of that world.

Another pleasure of viewing this film is seeing both Patrick Stewart and Liam Neeson before they hit the big time. And Carmina Burana never sounded better.

Face-Off: Marvel Team-Up or Marvel Two-In-One?

Karen: Of Marvel's two premiere team-up titles, which would you argue was the better book? Would you point to a particular period of that title as your reason? Or do you favor Spidey or the ever-lovin' blue-eyed Thing? Let's discuss these titanic team-up titles!

Doug's Favorites: Sub-Mariner 8

Sub-Mariner #8 (December 1968) (Reprinted in Marvel Treasury Edition #9, 1976)

"In the Rage of Battle!"

Roy Thomas-John Buscema/Dan Adkins

Doug: Raise your hand if you recall that wide-eyed feeling you got when you saw a new Marvel Treasury Edition on the newsstand or at the grocery store. I can remember buying (or actually some adult doing the buying on my behalf) each of the big books I have. They are all very special in their own way, and each served as a window to Marvel's (and DC's, if we consider the Limited Collector's Editions) Silver Age past. Today's review comes from Marvel Treasury Edition #9, named in typical Marvel tongue-in-cheek fashion "Giant Super-Hero Team-Up". At the bottom of today's post I'll include a couple of partial scans of my copy, as I know we have readers who like to see a "real" copy of the books we review rather than the pristine images we borrow from the Comic Book Database; on that note, you'll forgive me today for not posting any full-page glory. The mismatch in size between the book and my scanner bed is going to require some craftiness on my part just to get any good images up!  And... onward!

Doug: We open with a splash of a copy of the Daily Bugle in the trash, its front page headlines trumpeting a battle royal between Namor and the Thing. In the background we can see a woman seated at a desk, writing in a journal. As we turn the page, we find that she will apparently be this tale's narrator. There's a sense of urgency surrounding her writing, as she seems intent on getting details into her book. So we begin with a flashback...

Doug: I have never read Sub-Mariner #7, so this is one case where I'm glad for a little retroactive storytelling! Apparently in the last issue Namor was at odds with a certain Paul Destine, who ended up dead. As we join our cast here we find that the Lady Dorma has passed out from a lack of oxygen. She had been taking some sort of pill to aid her in breathing the surface air, and the time for the pill's effectiveness had lapsed. So Namor feels an urgent need to tend to his lady. Problem is, the Boys in Blue have arrived and want to ask the Avenging Son some questions about Destine's demise. Well, we've all known Subby long enough to know he's not in a talking frame of mind. So, one bull rush through the cops later, and Namor's in the air. He and Dorma were with a woman named Diane, and she hails a cab. Once inside she directs the hack to head down the alley, slowly. The driver doesn't go very far when the cab suddenly stops moving! Looking behind, he sees that Namor has landed and has grabbed hold of the back bumper. He and Dorma enter, and the cabbie takes the now-three passengers to a false address. A short walk later, and they are in Diane's apartment.

Doug: Once inside, Dorma is given the drug she needs, and her skin begins to change from blue. Diane says that Dorma must sleep, so Namor retires to the living room. Diane states that the prince really loves Dorma; Namor agrees without hesitation. Diane asks if he ever loved any other person so much. Namor says that he did, once long ago. We then get a flashback-within-our-flashback as Namor recalls the War years when he was often at odds with the surface dwellers of New York City. Our narrator tells of Namor's destructive tendencies as he battled the humans. We meet policewoman Betty Dean, who was brave enough to confront Namor face-to-face. She asked him to stop, and to leave. Namor, respectful of her bravery, complied. But as he left he was confronted by one who could actually match him -- the hero we call the Original Human Torch! We're treated to only three panels of Buscema-battle glory, but it's a fun little ride as we see Subby punch the cap off a fire hydrant to extinguish the Torch. Back to the first flashback, Namor tells Diane that Betty Dean was the one who encouraged him to fight the Nazis. We see a few more panels from the War, including one at the end when Namor bids a final farewell to Betty Dean. As he left, she remarked that although she loved him, he thought of her as only a friend. Diane asks Namor if he loved Betty Dean, which he says he had, why didn't he act on it? He says that a prince of the blood must wed an Atlantean, not a human. But as they talk, Namor's suddenly alerted to a bulletin on the radio. The police have in their custody the helmet that Paul Destine had worn while he had battled the Sub-Mariner. They plan to study it. Namor blasts forth from the sofa and out the window -- the police have no idea of the power that the helmet wields!

Doug: Sceneshift to police HQ, where the commissioner is on the phone with the Avengers. Goliath took the call, but told New York's Finest that neither he nor any of his mates would be able to assist in moving the helmet to Washington, DC. This issue takes place at the same time as Avengers #58, so obviously the Avengers had other things on their minds! Goliath asks if the FF have been contacted; no answer. But suddenly we see the Thing pull up to the commissioner's window -- the FF had gotten the message, and Reed Richards sent the Thing to act as the courier! You know where this is headed... Ben gets the lowdown on the helmet from the commish and a Dr. Miller. They know it's emitting some sort of rays, and could be dangerous. Ben bristles, but a big fat cigar calms him down. Classic Ben. He eventually leaves with the mysterious chapeau. A short distance away, the Sub-Mariner had been laying in wait, just beneath the surface of the river. But the pollution got to him, and disgustedly he burst from the waters to get free from the contamination. Burst straight up, and into -- here we go!

Doug: So if I told you I'd trade you 31 panels of roughhousing between two of Marvel's heavyweights for the low, low price of one dime plus two pennies, would you do it? If you don't mind my saying, you'd be a fool not to! Wow - just wow. Reading this again for the first time in years, there is no doubt why John Buscema has been called the Michelangelo of Comics. Every panel just explodes with energy, the camera angles constantly change, and even the brief respites from fighting are filled with tension. Of course Buscema leaves enough room on the perimeter of the panels for Roy Thomas's dialogue balloons. This story would predate Roy's tenure as scribe of the Fantastic Four, but I don't think there's any reservation if I say "he gets it". He writes Ben Grimm just as Stan Lee would have written him. Ben makes a better antagonist than would the Hulk, simply because of the banter that can take place between the Thing and his combatants -- with the Hulk, funny dialogue stems more from the Hulk's broken English or from situational elements. This battle is all wonderful -- it's funny when Ben speaks, it's pompous when Namor gets a turn. Can you imagine coming to this as a 10-year old, as I did? As the title of today's post suggests, this is one of my favorite comics of my youth.

Doug: So after 7 1/2 pages of "serious scrimmagin'", as Ben put it, Namor is urged to stop just as he intends to land the final blow on his orange-plated nemesis. Namor turns with a typical "Who dares?!?" to be greeted by a Mrs. Prentiss. Namor recognizes her and instantly puts to rest the huge chunk of building he had only moments before held aloft over the Thing. The woman, sensing she has completed her mission, turns to fade back into the shadows. Namor asks her to wait, that they could talk. She declines and says a final good-bye. Namor's face is now calm, as he says that he, too, will leave. Ben comes to his feet for the next round, but Namor almost-politely suggests that they will fight no more -- the helmet came from the depths and to the depths it will be returned. Ben doesn't protest, and asks himself if he somehow won today. Sceneshift to the apartment where we began, to find the same woman completing her journal entry. It was Namor and Dorma's friend Diane Arliss (help me out -- is she Tiger Shark's sister?) who had come to her for aid this day -- come to a woman, now a widow, once known to Namor as Betty Dean. 

Doug: Thanks for indulging me again. I come to this story with a true sense of "what's not to love?" Everything's just about perfect, from the typical quandary that will bring two heroes together as combatants, to Thomas's able scripting, to the the always-beautiful art of Big John Buscema. I've also wondered if I can warm to Dan Adkins's inks over John. I have the Essential Silver Surfer and have read all of the issues that Adkins inked. I suppose he's not bad, but he'd never be my first choice. And it's occurred to me over the years that I'd really like to get my hands on Namor's solo book. I have a bootleg dvd-rom of his Tales to Astonish adventures, and must get 'round to reading those. He's always been an intriguing character, but like many of our readers I've always seen him as a guest-star or as temporary in a team book such as the Defenders or the Avengers. Ah, just more on the to-read list...