Suggestion Unboxed - Separating the Ages

Humanbelly: What is your personal Silver Age/Bronze Age line of demarcation?

J.A. Morris: I'm also curious about your line of demarcation for the Bronze Age/Modern Age.

David B.: Which major comic company holds that honor of 'demarcation' over the other?

Thanks to Paul at Longbox Graveyard for the image.

BAB Firsts - Marvel and DC: Side-by-Side in 1970

This post was originally published on February 2 2011

 1970

Doug: Welcome, everyone, to a 16-part (yep, the longest to date!) series that will take a year-by-year look at what the Big Two were doing throughout the Bronze Age. Using the books you see in the logo above (read our reviews of the Marvel Chronicle and DC Comics: Year-by-Year) Karen and I will not only be reporting on the various goings-on both in the publishing and four-color worlds, but you just know we'll be adding a two-cent comment here and there. So buckle in and enjoy the ride -- we're anticipating some revelations, epiphanies, and downright expose's along the way! And a note: all information used in this series will derive from the two books exclusively; however, images we post may be from other sources.

Doug: I don't think comics historians mark the year 1970 as the beginning of a new age of comics for no reason at all. I was surprised when I began to pen my portion of this first installment at just how many watershed or almost-watershed events took place as the '60's gave way to the '70's. For example, at the House of Ideas the X-Men received their cancellation notice and Captain Stacy lost his life at the tentacles of Dr. Octopus. The Distinguished Competition may have pulled the biggest coup, though, with the acquisition of the talents of the King of Comics, and as the critically-acclaimed series "Hard Traveling Heroes" debuted in the pages of Green Lantern #76. Let's take a closer look at the year 1970, when the Kent State shootings took place, cigarette ads were banned on American television, Elvis visited Tricky Dick in the White House, Jimi Hendrix died, and the north tower of the World Trade Center was completed.
Doug: The first quarter of 1970 was a bit of a ho-hum at Marvel. Outside of the aforementioned cancellation of our Merry Mutants, about the biggest things going were a balked wedding between Bruce Banner and Betty Ross (Incredible Hulk #124), and the introduction of Sunfire in X-Men #64 (which, by the way, features Don Heck pencils so heavily under the influence of Tom Palmer's Adamsian inks that I actually liked it!). DC Comics countered with a little relevancy in Teen Titans #25, as our heroes have a hand in a fatality that will eventually drive them out of their colorful costumes, and the acquisition of the license to produce comics based on the Hot Wheels line of toy cars.

Karen: I always wonder what might have been if X-Men had not been canceled -or consigned to reprint-land. The book had actually improved so much, with the Thomas-Adams era. Of course, if those two had stayed on and the title had continued, we might never have seen the all-new, all-different team!

Doug: I agree -- it's one of those wonderful "what if?" questions. Funny, isn't it, that you could probably argue that the Avengers was Marvel's premier team book in 1970; I say that only from the standpoint that the FF were in a state of decline (OK, maybe "in stasis" is better...) creatively. And if I believe all the publicity, solicitations, etc., the Avengers is again Marvel's premier team book. But what a ride the X-Men had in the intervening 30+ years!

Doug: Someone at Marvel must have been pacing us, because the period from April-June offered up only a brief return to publication of Captain Marvel (2 issues, then kaput again for another two years), and the introductions of Richard Fisk (Amazing Spider-Man #83) and Arkon (Avengers #75). However, across the street DC dropped the bomb with the previously mentioned Green Lantern #76 by the all-star creative team of Dennis O'Neil and Neal Adams. Launching a new era for DC, the elder company now worked very hard to emulate what Stan Lee had been doing for years at Marvel -- bring some real-life situations, causes, and politics to the four-color world. As an extension, in Teen Titans #26 the young heroes threw away their colorful costumes and entered a world of crime-fighting as civilians. And the second quarter didn't just fade into summer -- no, instead DC greeted the end of the school year with the introduction of Man-Bat in Detective Comics #400 (again by O'Neil and Adams).

Karen: Things were definitely starting to change at stodgy DC. The arrival of pros like Adams gave DC much needed fresh blood. Of course in a few years, we would see many of Marvel's young talents cross over to DC and bring their newer style with them. It was a necessary change for them; they had become seen as "the establishment" and had lost much of their appeal, at least to older readers.

Doug: I think DC's continued power in the hands of its editors, as opposed to its creators, only softened their status quo. While we did see some "Marvelizing", overall (at least in my opinion) DC still lagged waaaaay behind Marvel in terms of top art talent and dynamic writing.

Doug: July brought us the 100th anniversary issue of the Fantastic Four, the first comic from the Marvel Age to reach that lofty plateau completely on its own. The end of the summer brought back the split books, as Amazing Adventures #1 (the Inhumans and the Black Widow) and Astonishing Tales #1 (Ka-Zar and Dr. Doom) hit the stands. But ominous clouds were brewing, as (gasp!) the final Jack Kirby-penciled FF and Thor (#101 and #179, respectively) stories went on sale. After that, it would be six years before the King returned to the House of Ideas. But Marvel's loss was DC's gain, as we'll see later. July saw DC introduce The Unknown Soldier in Star-Spangled War Stories #151 by the immortal Joe Kubert.

Karen: By this time much of Kirby's magic seemed to have dissipated. His frustrations with Marvel and Stan Lee are now well-known. I don't think it's any surprise to state that his work during this time period at Marvel was pretty uninspired. For that matter, much of Lee's writing -as we've discussed recently -also seemed to be slipping. It was time for a new generation of creative talents.

Doug: Quarter #3, otherwise known as autumn, is generally depressing to young comics readers, as the school desk beckons. Apparently neither Marvel or DC felt all that inspired, as Westerns brought about the only news -- the introduction of Red Wolf (created by Roy Thomas and John Buscema) in Avengers #80 and DC's return to the genre with All-Star Western #1.

Doug: As the temperatures dropped, the spinner racks must have been heating up. Talk about going out with a bang! Marvel staged perhaps one of the biggest marketing coups of the coming decade when it licensed Conan the Barbarian and introduced him to comics readers in October in the pages of Conan the Barbarian #1 by Roy Thomas and Barry Smith. The sword-and-sorcery genre continues to the present, and although Marvel no longer holds the license, Conan and his cast are alive and well 40 years later. November saw the death of Captain Stacy in Amazing Spider-Man #90. But it was DC that made perhaps the biggest noise in the comic book industry when Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen #133 was published with Jack Kirby credited as the writer and artist. This was Kirby's entry point for his return to DC after decades at Marvel, and the launch pad for what would become his "Fourth World" saga. The next issue of Jimmy Olsen saw the introduction of Darkseid, and the wheels were set in motion for major changes at the Big Two!

Karen: I don't think Marvel knew what they had with Conan; from what I've read, the fans didn't quite know what to make of it either, and it took some time to become the mega-hit it was destined to be. But it's hard to think of Marvel in the 70s and not think of Conan. He was everywhere, particularly on the merchandise that was flowing out of the House of Ideas by the mid-70s. DC certainly didn't recognize what they had with Kirby's Fourth World. It would take another generation for that flower to blossom!

Evolution: The Early Bronze Age, the High Bronze Age, and the Copper Transition

Doug: We have a broad topic for the weekend that asks you to do a little evaluative thinking. The conversation that should develop as our readers set forth their posits should give us some friendly disagreements that will push the conversation further.

We discuss Silver, Bronze, and Copper Ages topics all the time around here. This weekend we'd like you to see if you can delineate characteristics of parts of that period from 1968-1988 or so. What key works stand out as representative of each era, and can you put your finger on a key work and say, "Yeah, that's different from anything that had been going on just before." Like the Silver Age came to different companies at different times, we'll reach no consensus today and that's fine.

Who were those key creators who spurred on the next period? Can we say that a certain creator did his best work in a given period? Jack Kirby comes to mind -- obviously he's most known and perhaps best appreciated for his Silver Age work at Marvel. Yet his departure from the company and then later return serves as the very parameters of the Bronze Age for some comics historians.

Lastly, which characters epitomize these various ages? For this question I'd like you to think of characters created within the period you are discussing. They could certainly have a life stretching past, but let's examine just what about them makes them so representative of the period.

Have fun, and thanks in advance!

Stop This Ride! I Want to Get Off!

Doug:  As we've discussed over the past week in our review of Sean Howe's Marvel Comics: The Untold Story, there were certain times throughout the company's history when creativity, marketing, and/or developing trends really pushed the envelope as far as your BAB moderators' patience was concerned.  Karen and our friends Edo Bosnar, David B., Tom, and Fred W. Hill all remarked that the Secret Wars mini-series was sort of the "beginning of the end" for them as true fans in the 1980's.  I think every one of our readers, at least from the comments we've received over the past four years, has been in and out of collecting at one time or another.  We've even had discussions in the past as to what might be considered canon and what should be dumped in regard to various titles.  And, you may also recall that we ran two series of posts called "Marvel and DC -- Side-by-Side in..." where we examined doings at the Big Two in the Silver Age and in the Bronze Age, focusing on trends and assumed market share.

Doug:  So today's questions should elicit good conversation on their own, yet I'm guessing they will breed some nice tangential comments:  Please take us through the various titles you collected and tell us when your breaking point occurred -- can you remember the exact issue or at least specific storyline which made you cry, "Enough!"?  Or, if you're really feeling beaten down by the Big Two, was there a year when you scrapped everything?  Not just a title or two -- flat out walked away!  Is there a specific point when you feel a company should have ceased production, because everything that came after was just garbage (remember, Jim Shooter wanted to end the entire Marvel Universe as we know it, back in 1985 or so)?  Be sure, in your reminiscences, to tell us why you felt so fed up.  And thanks!

Bomber jackets, anyone??

Marvel and DC: Side-by-Side in 1969

1969

Doug: You've reached the end of a long journey -- six months of Side-by-Sides! It's been quite a bit of fun, seeing what the Big Two published from 1962 all the way to 1985. I know I've been surprised at times at the ebb and flow of big introductions, creator mobility, and general butt-spanking that's gone on. We hope you've had fun, too. The resource books we've used, DC Comics: Year by Year and the Marvel Chronicle certainly have their faults, but I'd recommend them to anyone's library. The year 1969 is sort of a segue way to the Bronze Age, and I think you'll find quite a bit of Bronze Age goodness floating around in this post. In the outside world, the two really big events were the moon landing by the Apollo 11 astronauts in July, followed a month later by Woodstock. 1969 was also the year Richard Nixon promoted the "Vietnamization" of the Vietnam War. Additionally, Elvis began recording for his "comeback" and John Lennon and Yoko Ono held their "bed-in" for peace in Quebec. The Jackson 5 appeared on the Ed Sullivan Show, and at the movies you could have seen one of Doug's all-time faves, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, as well as A Boy Named Charlie Brown and the 6th Bond movie On Her Majesty's Secret Service.

Karen: An interesting, exciting year in the real world. I was only a wee one when the moon landing happened, but I can recall the tremendous pride people felt in that achievement. But on to the comics!

Doug: Although just three at the time, I can recall watching the moon landing on television. Probably my earliest memory.
Doug: The only entry in the DC book for the first quarter is The Witching Hour #1. Now again, I'm not a horror comics fan, and wouldn't have bought this, but check out the list of creators: Alex Toth, Neal Adams, and Denny O'Neil, among others. Wow... Over at Marvel, Yellowjacket and the Wasp got themselves hitched in Avengers #60, under a fantastic floating heads cover by Big John Buscema. January also gave us the first appearance of Arnold Drake's space team from the future -- the Guardians of the Galaxy, in Marvel Super-Heroes #18. The boys were drawn at that time by the recently departed Gene Colan. Captain America #110 saw the first appearance of Madame Hydra, later to be known as the Viper, and also featured Rick Jones' debut as the new Bucky. In March, Dr. Strange got his super-hero suit with the full facemask (Dr. Strange #177), and Alex Summers was introduced in X-Men #54 -- and wouldn't he get some cool duds a few issues hence? Whoa, hey, wait -- one more minor detail from Marvel's first quarter: A dude named Galactus had his origin presented in Mighty Thor #162. No big deal...

Karen: Those are some great books. The Galactus stories in Thor were wonderful, another reason that title was an important one to read in the 60s. I have to say, it might not have lasted long, but I actually liked Dr. Strange's full-face mask -it made him more mysterious, sort of like Dr. Fate.
Doug: In the spring, DC continued their mission of expanding genres (especially into the realm of horror) with April's House of Mystery #179. This book is significant as the lead story, "The Man Who Murdered Himself" was Marv Wolfman's first script in the genre; of course he'd define the post-Code horror book a few years later during his tenure as the scribe on Marvel's Tomb of Dracula. In Superman #216, the Man of Steel fought in the Vietnam War. While Robert Kanigher's script did not contain any moralizing or political commentary, it did feature DC dealing with a contemporary conflict; prior war stories from the company had mainly focused on the two World Wars. Also in May, J'onn J'onzz resigned from the JLA after his people were killed on Mars, in Justice League of America #71. Denny O'Neil and Dick Dillin did the creative work on that one. June's The Phantom Stranger #1 brought the character back to the DCU after a 16-year hiatus.

Karen: DC did seem to have a number of anthology-style horror books, something that never seemed to catch on at Marvel (despite Steranko's work on Tower of Shadows). The Superman story shows that DC was moving towards a more modern style of comic.

Doug: Over at the House of Ideas, Stan Lee decided that if Millie the Model was still relevant, why not give her a spin-off title? You know that his decision was mainly based on the new distribution deal that Marvel had, where they could publish as many titles each month as they wanted -- this was a ploy to crowd DC off the store shelves. Mad About Millie #1 was created by Stan Goldberg, who would later move on to Archie. Millie's friend, Chili, got her own self-titled number one a month later. And Stan and John Romita introduced Marvel's second crime lord when Silvermane made his bow in Amazing Spider-Man #73.

Karen: So we got two Millie spin-offs instead of say, oh I don't know, maybe an Ant-Man and Wasp book, or Black Panther??? Or any other super-hero?
Doug: The third quarter was a good one at Marvel with a key 1st appearance right off the bat in July -- not of a person, but of a thing. Roy Thomas created the alloy known as adamantium in Avengers #66; this is the indestructible metal that would be laced to Wolverine's skeleton in the 1970's. In September, seeking a way around the Comics Code Authority's prohibition of werewolves, Thomas and artist Neal Adams instead created a were-pterodactyl when they introduced Sauron in X-Men #60. In September Marvel chose also to re-enter the horror market and published Tower of Shadows #1; the creator-list on that one included Jim Steranko, Johnny Craig, John Buscema, and Don Heck. Not bad... Stan Lee also re-entered the romance genre with My Love #1; throughout the book's 39-issue history, Buscema, Romita, Colan, and Adams, among others, would contribute work. But the biggest 1st of the quarter was the introduction of the Falcon, Marvel's first African-American super-hero, in Captain America #117.

Karen: People tend to forget that the first character at Marvel to have adamantium in his body was Ultron, not Wolverine. Actually, he turned his entire body into adamantium, making him one of the Avengers' greatest foes. Although I love the Adams/Thomas X-Men, I never felt Sauron was a particularly strong character. But the art was lovely. The arrival of the Falcon in the Marvel Universe was huge. More than ever, it seemed like the Marvel heroes really did live in our world.
Doug: Summer's big events at the Distinguished Competition included an origin for Wonder Girl, by Marv Wolfman and Gil Kane, in Teen Titans #22. Four years after her introduction, Donna Troy was revealed to have been rescued as a baby by Wonder Woman from a burning apartment. WW took the baby to Paradise Island, where she was raised as the foster daughter of Queen Hippolyta. In September the western hero Firehair debuted in Showcase #85, rendered (and written) by Joe Kubert. A white man raised by Native Americans, Firehair told the story of the red-haired protagonist who belonged in neither world. DC Special #4 introduced us to our horror-host Cain's brother... you guessed it -- Abel. But the biggest deal as school was starting was Neal Adams re-imagining of Green Arrow, both in look and personality, in the pages of The Brave and the Bold #85.

Karen: Little did anyone know what an impact Adams' new G.A. would have on the comics world. Certainly, his costume was a huge improvement over the rather bland outfit he'd worn for years.

Doug: In the autumn, The Losers debuted in G.I. Combat #138, by Robert Kanigher and Russ Heath. In Justice League of America #75, Black Canary joined the team, and also developed her "canary cry". Bet Ollie was happy for that... The Atom and the Hawkman #45 was that series' last issue, and was again brought to readers by Denny O'Neil and Dick Dillin. December had one of the biggest stories, and really served to set up the coming of the Dark Knight in the Bronze Age -- Batman #217 featured the departure of Robin as Dick headed off to college. With that, Batman and Alfred sealed up the Batcave and moved out of Wayne Manor and into a penthouse apartment atop the Wayne Foundation building in downtown Gotham. Change was afoot...

Karen: I just don't know how you leave the Bat-cave. It's the coolest secret HQ ever!
Doug: To close out the year (and this series!), October's Avengers #69 gave us the Grandmaster -- but more importantly the Squadron Sinister. Created by Roy Thomas as a poke-fun at DC's JLA, the Squadron would go on to menace both the Avengers and the Defenders in many memorable dust-ups. Daredevil decided to reveal his secret ID as Matt Murdock when he spilled it all to Karen Page in DD #57; bet he regretted that move later (see Daredevil #227). In Captain Marvel #17, Mar-Vell and Rick Jones became bonded, a storyline that would continue for years. November's ASM #78 gave us Hobie Brown, the Prowler, and the Stingray debuted in Sub-Mariner #19, by Roy Thomas and Bill Everett.

Karen: Roy got even more mileage out of his JLA homage when he used essentially the same characters as the Squadron Supreme -heroic versions of the bad guys in another reality.

Doug: This was a fun jaunt through the Marvel Age. For my money, Marvel was just one creative explosion after another. While DC pushed the envelope here and there, with key events like the Batman television show and Neal Adams' first major comics work along the way, I just think there was no comparison in this period between the Big Two. As we've already seen in our tour of the Bronze Age, things would be a bit more back-and-forth in the 1970's and '80's, but in Marvel's infancy-to-adolescence period it's just not even close.

Karen: Agreed!

Marvel and DC: Side-by-Side in 1968

1968

Doug: Last week I asked you to pay close attention for signs that the Silver Age was gradually shifting into the Bronze Age. With today's post, I think we can all agree that change is coming. We'll see a "Marvel explosion" as their distribution problems that limited them to just over a dozen titles per month would be fixed. DC, still riding the high of the Batman television show, will be forced to continue to evolve as Marvel kept growing. And in the world outside our windows, turmoil was the daily word. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated in Memphis in April, and sure-to-be Democratic presidential nominee Bobby Kennedy was gunned down in Los Angeles in June, the same month James Earl Ray was arrested for King's murder. Students rioted around the globe, and the Soviet army put down the "Prague Spring". The men aboard Apollo 8 became the first to orbit the moon. Hot Wheels were introduced in September, 60 Minutes premiered on CBS the same month, and in December the Beatles released the White Album. At the movies, the Beatles released Yellow Submarine; Planet of the Apes and Night of the Living Dead gave us pause, and 2001: A Space Odyssey was Stanley Kubrick's masterpiece.

Karen: Kind of amazing how we went from the 'Summer of Love' to this. I guess the final nail in the coffin of the hippie movement would be with the Stones and Altamont in the following year.
Doug: In the first quarter, Marvel brought back a character from its Atlas period when Roy Thomas re-made the Black Knight in the pages of Avengers #48. Later in the year, in Marvel Super-Heroes #17 (November), Dane Whitman met his predecessor Sir Percy of Scandia. By the way, neither was related to the dude who suited up with Baron Zemo's Masters of Evil in the early Avengers issues. Also in January, Whiplash first surfaced to menace the Golden Avenger, in the pages of Tales of Suspense #97, and Gwen Stacy's father was introduced in Amazing Spider-Man #56. George Stacy was a retired NYPD captain and close friend of Joe Robertson. Stacy was one of the few members of Spidey's supporting cast who deduced that Spider-Man was Peter Parker. The Wrecker debuted in Mighty Thor #148, and he was eventually empowered by Asgardian magic. In the 100th issue of Tales to Astonish, the Hulk and Sub-Mariner battled each other, and in X-Men #42, Professor X was believed to have perished; it was later revealed that the Professor was in reality the Changeling.

Karen: I've always liked the Black Knight, although any sword-wielding super-hero has the problem of how to not kill anyone with their sword. I recall BK and Valkyrie always saying stuff about using the flat of their sword -kind of takes all the fun out of it, doesn't it? Capt. Stacy was a nice addition to Spider-Man's cast, but I don't so much credit him with being a great sleuth; rather, the rest of Peter's associates were not very perceptive!

Doug: Across the street at DC Comics, January gave us a very liberated Lois Lane as our reporter shed her business attire in favor of more mod fashions; this "new Lois" would evolve throughout the remainder of the 1960's and into the '70's. Yep, Superman's Girlfriend Lois Lane #80 was the demarcation line. In March, John Broome and Gil Kane gave us one of the 1980's (see the DeMatteis/Giffen/Maguire Justice League if you don't believe me) most memorable characters with the first appearance of Guy Gardner (Green Lantern #59). Believe it or not, as Abin Sur was about to die, his computers had located two men who would be worthy to wear the ring of the Green Lantern Corps: Hal Jordan and Gardner. Lucky for the universe that Jordan just happened to be closer to the crash site!

Karen: It sort of blows my mind knowing that Lois Lane had her own series for years. In the 60s even. But there were all sorts of books on the racks back then. And of course, her title was really more a comedy than anything else, although I gather it got more serious around this time period.

Doug: I'll admit, I'm taken aback by how relatively late some of these stories that I actually owned as a kid as back issues were published. I had the Thor with the Wrecker (I had the previous issue with a battle against Loki as well), and as a child I just thought a 12c comic was ancient history. To think that this was 1968 already just seems odd to me. Yeah, I understand that prior to 1961 there weren't any Marvel Comics per se, but I'm still having a sort of time disorientation here. Maybe its the proliferation of reprinted material that's throwing me off, I don't know...

Doug: As we headed into the spring, Iron Man and Sub-Mariner #1 served as a bridge to each character getting their own solo titles; this book was not a team-up, however, as each character appeared in an 11-page story of his own. Both title characters received eponymous first issues in May. Marvel's family history began to get a little convoluted in the pages of Avengers #52 (May) with the introduction of the Grim Reaper. It would get even more twisted in a few months... Also in May, Roy Thomas brought back another Golden Age creation when Red Raven appeared in X-Men #44. Another #1 hit the stands in June, as Nick Fury moved out of strange tales and into his own Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD. Writer/artist Jim Steranko introduced Scorpio in this issue, a villain who was really Jack Fury, Nick's younger brother.

Karen: This was also the brief period where Marvel had the X-Men split up and the individual characters got solo stories -as demonstrated by the cover to the left, featuring the Angel. They were trying to find something that would turn the book around. That wasn't it.

Doug: Spring at the Distinguished Competition brought several key introductions and production firsts. In April, Showcase #73 featured the debut of the Steve Ditko-created Creeper. A quite bizarre-looking fellow, the Creeper received a solo title in June. In May, the man most associated with the Bronze Age Batman penciled a full-length adventure featuring the Dark Knight for the first time. Neal Adams drew a Leo Dorfman script in World's Finest #175; the rest is history. Also in May, DC further "complicated" its multiverse in Flash #179, when Barry Allen was cast into "Earth Prime", where super-heroes only existed in comic books. Yep, Earth-Prime is our world, and Julius Schwartz was the only man who could help the Flash return to Earth-1. Two other key debuts in DC lore were Secret Six #1 (May) and the debut of the Hawk and the Dove in Showcase #75 (June) -- it's amazing how that title just kept rolling, with every issue seemingly a key. There wasn't much that appeared in Showcase that didn't stick, at least temporarily.

Karen: Showcase does seem to have a pretty good track record. I mean, if you compare it to some of Marvel's similar titles, like Marvel Premiere or Marvel Presents - well, you don't exactly have people clamoring for Woodgod or Monark Starstalker stories.

Doug: The summer at Marvel was pretty significant, as Daredevil's foe the Jester (well, not so significant) first bowed in Daredevil #42 and Ultron (way significant) debuted in Avengers #54. Hmmm... Wonder Man, the Grim Reaper, Ultron -- what could be next? Also in July, Mangog entered the scene with the destruction of Asgard on his mind, in Mighty Thor #154. Spidey ventured into the magazine world in Spectacular Spider-Man #1, a black & white tabloid, and in August the Silver Surfer received his own title. An extra-length book priced at 25c, the book featured a full-length story of the Surfer by Stan Lee and John Buscema, and a back-up spotlighting the Watcher by Lee and Gene Colan. For my money, cover-to-cover this had to be the most beautiful book on the stands at this time.

Karen: Beautiful work by Buscema. I have a hard time reading those old Silver Surfer comics now because they were just so ridiculously 'woe is me' and preachy, but there's no denying the art was gorgeous. Of course, it was another thing that ticked Kirby off and hastened his departure from Marvel.

Doug: Summer was a bit thin (in my opinion) at DC, with only The House of Mystery changing to a horror anthology (hosted by Cain) with issue #175, the August introduction of Bat Lash (Sergio Aragones and Nick Cardy, creators) in Showcase #76, and the introduction of Angel and the Ape in Showcase #77 by John Albano and Bob Oksner. None of these books would fall under the category of "Doug's fare". More substantially, CBS Saturday mornings welcomed the Batman/Superman Hour, which was the Caped Crusader's first animated program. And it took 30 years?

Karen: Oh boy, I really enjoyed those cartoons! It was really my initial exposure to the DC characters, and the main way I knew anything about them for many years. I can still hear the theme music from the Batman cartoon.

Doug: Well, we've been waiting for the completion of Marvel's weird, dysfunctional Avengers family. Wait no longer. Avengers #57 was cover-dated October, and featured the introduction of the Silver Age Vision. Again, Roy Thomas often used names and/or characters already in Marvel's stable -- it's been said that Thomas did not want to create something that might go on to be hugely popular and financially lucrative; this was the era before creators' rights and royalties. This Vision, while somewhat resembling the Golden Age character, was an android created by Hank Pym's robotic construct Ultron. Imbued with the brain patterns of Simon Williams, Wonder Man, the Vision now completed what would go on to be a running story, to the present. In October, both Lorna Dane, the future Polaris, and Mesmero were introduced in X-Men #49. The issue was created by Arnold Drake and artists Don Heck and Werner Roth. The Badoon first appeared in Silver Surfer #2, and Dr. Faustus menaced Captain America for the first time in Captain America #107. In Amazing Spider-Man Annual #5, Peter learned what had happened to his parents, and in Fantastic Four Annual #6, we were introduced to Annihilus and witnessed the birth of Franklin Richards. The next month, in December, Crystal replaced Sue Richards on active duty in FF #81. Hank Pym did another costume (and personality) change in Avengers #59 when he became Yellowjacket. And to close the year, the devil himself, Mephisto, was introduced in Silver Surfer #3 as Stan further portrayed Norrin Radd as a messianic figure.

Karen: A great set of books there. It's no secret that I am a big fan of the Vision -well, up 'til the deconstruction. That whole speech by Pym about "we ask only a man's worth, not the accident of his condition" is such classic Marvel. However, I thought the story about Peter's parents being spies was a mis-step. Making them not normal folk seems to mess with Peter's everyman image. Luckily it doesn't have much effect on the title but it seems best forgotten.

Doug: Wrapping the year from DC, October featured a strange sort of "breaking the fourth wall" story in Doom Patrol #121, when the creators implored fans to choose whether the Doom Patrol should save their own lives or the lives of 14 innocent civilians. Apparently comics buyers had been siding with the innocent civilians for many months, as the title was cancelled with this issue. The also-ill-fated Brother Power, the Geek (Joe Simon and Al Bare) #1 lasted only two issues. Simon attempted to tell his version of the Frankenstein story, but in a mod '60's style. Fish weren't bitin'. And in October, Diana Prince shed her Wonder Woman identity and became more of a Emma Peel-type of character in Wonder Woman #178.

Marvel and DC: Side-by-Side in 1967

1967

Doug: Only three more entries in our second tour through Side-by-Side land, folks. This would be a big year for DC creatively, and we'll see if some new key hires would help them continue to hold off the Marvel juggernaut. As we've gone through, I think the running opinion has been that Marvel's arrival on the scene was just an explosion; then again, when starting from nothing, that freedom to fail can be quite an elixir. Here's an assignment for you, as we finish this: See what elements occur that change/support your previous position on when the Silver Age ended and the Bronze Age began. Frequent commenter and fellow Bronze Age blogger Terence Stewart is running a series of posts in this vein and you can read his POV here. In the 12 months that encompass this post, the first Super Bowl was played, with the Green Bay Packers downing the AFL's Kansas City Chiefs. Israel defeated her Arab neighbors in the 6-Day War. The Beatles released Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. Rolling Stone magazine began publication. Toward the end of the year Thurgood Marshall became the first Black justice on the Supreme Court, and revolutionary Che Guevara was executed in Bolivia. In South Africa, the first heart transplant was performed. In December, The Graduate hit theaters; other films of the year included Bonnie and Clyde (a personal fave of mine), Disney's The Jungle Book, and the Bond flick You Only Live Twice. Widely, it was the "Summer of Love".

Doug: Huge introduction to get things rolling -- the Silver Age Batgirl debuted in Detective Comics #359, cover-dated January. This issue came out nine months before her television first appearance. Editor Julius Schwartz claims that the TV execs wanted a character that would appeal to a female audience, and this is what Gardner Fox and Carmine Infantino came up with. Although the TV Batgirl lasted only one season, Barbara Gordon and the Silver Age Batgirl continue in their popularity to the present. Another key introduction happened within Adventure Comics #352, when the Legion sought additional aid against the malevolent Sun-Eater. Emptying the prisons of some of the most powerful do-badders of the 30th Century, the Legion unwittingly created a monster when the five super-villains chose to remain together as the Fatal Five. Their origin was written by Jim Shooter and penciled by Curt Swan.

Karen: A few years ago at a convention, I got a fairly nice copy of Detective #359. Although I don't have many DC Silver Age comics, that one was a must. I've always liked the character,as Batgirl seemed to be every bit as sharp as her peer, Robin. Plus, she has a great costume -even if she did sometimes carry a purse! The Fatal Five, I've read, were inspired by the film "The Dirty Dozen". Shooter was told to do something based on that film. He never saw the movie but got the gist of the plot simply by looking at ads for the film, and came up with his own version.

Doug: Marvel's offerings in the first quarter of 1967 were key, but in my opinion not on the scale of DC's above. Here's a short list of introductions, some certainly "more key" than others: Banshee (X-Men #28), Lady Sif (Mighty Thor #136), Mike Murdock (Daredevil #25), the Western Ghost Rider (The Ghost Rider #1), Ulik the troll (Mighty Thor #137), and the Shocker (Amazing Spider-Man #46). Of the above, Banshee would be the most significant in the Bronze Age. An interesting note, too, that both Sean Cassidy as well as Sif made their celluloid debuts this summer in block-buster films from Marvel.

Karen: That's a solid list though as you note, no real block buster characters there. I do wonder why Banshee was not Irish in the film. Seems like it wouldn't have been that hard to do.

Doug: In the Spring, Aqualad was given a love interest when Tula, aka Aquagirl, was introduced in Aquaman #33 by Bob Haney and Nick Cardy. In a nice touch for historians, the DC Comics: Year by Year book also discusses some of the Charlton characters, who licenses DC would of course go on to acquire. In June, Blue Beetle #1 was released, which was actually a two-fer, featuring Ted Kord as the Beetle with a back-up series featuring the Question. Both features were written and drawn by Steve Ditko. Marvel's spring featured the 1st appearance of major Hulk foe the Abomination in Tales to Astonish #90, by Stan Lee and Gil Kane. Blackie Drago became the Vulture in ASM #48; original Vulture Adrian Toomes was convinced he was dying in prison, so told Drago all of his secrets. We reviewed the tale when Toomes decided he wanted his wings back, which would occur in ASM #63. Baron Strucker was revealed as the leader of Hydra in Strange Tales #156, and Blastaar (Fantastic Four #62), the Growing Man (Mighty Thor #140), and the Living Tribunal (Strange Tales #157) all made their first appearances to finish out the quarter.

Karen: Already we are starting to move out of the great Marvel explosion of creativity. Not that some of these characters or stories weren't great or enduring, but I wouldn't put Blastaar or the Growing Man up there with Black Bolt or Ego, for example.

Doug: I mentioned at the top that this would be big year creatively for DC, in large part to some personnel changes. Carmine Infantino was named editorial director, and as part of a shake-up brought on board "artist-editors" Joe Kubert, Joe Orlando, and Dick Giordano to give DC a more updated look -- in no small part to compete with Marvel's Jack Kirby, John Buscema, and John Romita. Perhaps Infantino's best move was hiring Neal Adams, whose style no doubt heavily influenced the segue toward the Bronze Age. At Marvel, 1967 saw the first Bullpen Bulletins, where Stan explained how long it took to make a comic book: what was written in July would go on sale in October and actually be cover-dated for January of the following year! Marvel's popularity was only growing in this period, as Stars and Stripes did a major feature on the company and over 100 college campuses in the States adopted chapters of the Merry Marvel Marching Society; of course, Mark Evanier very famously suggested that members be able to achieve the rank of officers and submitted a list of such titles, such as K.O.F. (Keeper of the Flame). The June books for 1967 featured the first Stan's Soapbox.

Karen: I know I've heard people claim that DC had better artists than Marvel in the 60s, but I've never felt that way. I do think that getting Neal Adams was a huge move, but of course, he wound up doing a lot of work for Marvel too.Doug: And speaking of Neal Adams, he made his DC debut with two comics cover-dated July and August. And you couldn't find two more different genres to feature his work -- neither of which you'd suspect. His nine-page back-up in Our Army at War #182 is his official debut, followed up by the first full-length story in Jerry Lewis #101! Fans of the JLA/JSA team-ups may recall another on again/off again treat in the Superman-Flash races... Superman #199, by Jim Shooter and Curt Swan was the first one. In September, The Superman/Aquaman Hour of Adventure debuted on CBS Saturday mornings and ran through the next year.

Karen: I can't help but think of Ted Knight when you mention those cartoons. He had such a huge, over the top voice when he did the narrative work!

Doug: The Kingpin of Crime, Wilson Fisk, first menaced our Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man in ASM #50 (July 1967). Predating Mario Puzo's novel The Godfather by two years, Fisk no doubt would have fit into that tale of organized crime. Stan Lee and John Romita crafted a very complex character who would later go on to have key storylines involving Daredevil. Additionally, that same issue of ASM featured the iconic "Spider-Man No More" story that was a major part of the Spider-Man 2 film As Marvel's universe continued to get more cosmic, the Sentry was introduced in FF #64, which predated Erich von Daniken's Chariots of the Gods by a year. Were Stan and Jack (and others in the Bullpen) visionaries, or what? In August the Changeling appeared in X-Men #35 and Joe Robertson was introduced in ASM #51 -- Robbie's one of my favorite Spider-Man characters! Wrapping up the summer months, Marvel's version of MAD magazine debuted when Not Brand Echh #1 went on sale. Warlock, or Him, was introduced in FF #66, and two of the funnest summer annuals hit the stands: Avengers Annual #1 was a 49-page extravaganza featuring all of the Avengers (sans the Hulk) against their major super-baddies to that point. Over in Daredevil Annual #1, Electro assembled his Emissaries of Evil.

Karen: I've always been very fond of Joe Robertson too. He brought a nice grounded aspect to counter-balance the antics of J. Jonah Jameson. Lee and Romita didn't have to make him African American; they chose to, and I am sure were making their own statement with that decision. As for the Sentry, let's be clear: this is the original, Kree Sentry we're talking about here, not that terrible character that polluted the Marvel Universe later on! Regarding Him and his origin, you can read a lot of interviews and articles which make it clear that this was another story where Lee and Kirby went in different directions, with Kirby intending one thing with his art and Lee writing a somewhat different story via his dialogue. All part of why Kirby would depart in a few years.

Doug: Oh, good lord -- it didn't even cross my mind when I typed that above that a reader might think of that doofus you refer to. Seriously, I'm not a big fan of retcons, but the Sentry as we've seen him over the past decade or so has to be one of the worst ideas in Marvel history.

Doug: Maybe Marvel's biggest news of the summer months was the release of their second and third animated programs: Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four. While neither featured animation that could be compared to today's programs, both were a step up from the Marvel Super-Heroes cartoon. Spider-Man was admittedly better in the 1968 season when Ralph Bakshi took the reins of the shows, and featured more comic book-like stories. Fantastic Four, however, was good from the outset, adapting many storylines from the comics.

Karen: And of course, Spider-Man had one of the best theme songs ever!

Doug: DC would not go quietly this year. In October, Aquaman faced his two deadliest adversaries at the same time, when Black Manta and Ocean Master attacked him in Aquaman #35. Strange Adventures #205 featured the debut of Deadman, by Arnold Drake and Carmine Infantino; Adams would shortly make the character his own. The Spectre received his own title with The Spectre #1, cover-dated December, by Gardner Fox and Murphy Anderson. These latter two magazines could have had so much more potential had they been published as the Comics Code Authority relaxed in the early 1970's. And lastly, DC hoped to capitalize on teen music lovers with a 12c comic-sized magazine called Teen Beat. The first issue (there ended up only being two) featured gossip on the Beatles, Jefferson Airplane, and The Mamas and the Papas. Those of us who grew up in the 1970's may recall a magazine called Teen Beat; this wasn't it, but the idea was the same.

Karen: I'm always amazed by the variety of titles these companies put out through the 60s and 70s. In some ways, it's sad that super-heroes have come to dominate Marvel and DC, but I guess the millions of independent comics now fill that 'variety' niche.

Doug: At the House of Ideas, October gave us the return of the Yellow Claw in Strange Tales #161 to menace Nick Fury, and the 1st appearance of MODOK in Tales of Suspense #94, who would later gain control of AIM. The Psycho Man debuted in FF Annual #5 (I love that issue) in November, and the Avengers took on Magneto in Avengers #47, cover-dated December. But the biggest intro. of the year may have been right at the end, when Captain Marvel surfaced in Marvel Super-Heroes #12, by Stan Lee and Gene Colan. The cosmic landscape was expanding once again.

Karen: It's funny to think that the primary reason for the existence of Marvel's Captain Marvel was to use that name and prevent DC from using it. When I complain about how market-driven and written by committee comics are today, it's worth recalling that this has occurred to some degree since comics began. However, Captain Mar-Vell turned out to be a very different character from the Big Red Cheese, and once Jim Starlin got a hold on him, he became Marvel's first truly cosmic hero.

Marvel and DC: Side-by-Side in 1966

1966

Doug: As I said on Monday, this was the year I was born, and I think you'll agree that the hits didn't stop coming -- this one's a good one, capped off by the beginning of Marvel's cosmic age with the introductions of the Silver Surfer, the Watcher, and Galactus! Over at DC, the Batman television show made its premiere. Big stuff! And by the time it's over, this might be one of those years that is closer in output between the Big Two than last year was, for example. Outside our doors and windows, Indira Gandhi became prime minister in India, the first spacecraft (albeit unoccupied) landed on the moon, the Miranda rights ("you have the right to remain silent..." -- c'mon, if you've seen a cop show, you know 'em!) became law in the States, and in the realm of entertainment The Doors self-titled debut album and the Beach Boys Pet Sounds were released, Star Trek premiered on American TV in September and How the Grinch Stole Christmas aired in December (natch), and the NFL-AFL merger was finalized in professional football. And now for something you've all been waiting for, the reason you woke up today:

Doug: This year got off to a resounding "Biff! Bam! Pow!" with several key events. In January, not only did the "Dial 'H' for Hero" series debut in House of Mystery #156, but Triplicate Girl was forcibly made into Duo Damsel when one of her selves was killed by the robot Computo in Adventure Comics #340. On January 12th the Batman show first aired on ABC-TV. I would think that comics fans were very excited about this, and there's no doubt that the show became immensely popular very early into its run. Over the 2-year period 1965-66, it ranked 5th (keep in mind, it was only one in '66) behind Bonanza, Gomer Pyle, The Lucy Show, and The Red Skelton Hour. Interestingly, that ranking is for the Thursday installment of the show; you'll recall that each two-part episode played on Wednesday and continued "tomorrow. Same Bat-time, same Bat-channel." The Wednesday episodes ranked 10th overall. Hmmm... In February, Teen Titans #1 was the reward for our young heroes after three successful try-outs in The Brave and the Bold. The Titans head to South America to join the Peace Corps, and in the course of their do-gooding are opposed by a super-baddie named El Conquistadore. Showcase #60 featured the Silver Age debut of the Spectre, almost 20 years after his last Golden Age appearance. This time 'round, his adventures were chronicled by Gardner Fox and Murphy Anderson. And in March, the aptly-named Major Disaster showed up in Green Lantern #43. Whoo-hoo! Lastly, It's a Bird! It's a Plane! It's Superman! opened on Broadway and lasted 129 performances, closing in July.

Karen: That's a pretty solid start for DC. Of course, I've said it before: whether she's Triplicate Girl or Duo Damsel, she's the most worthless super-hero of all. I mean, I'd take Stone Boy -or any of the Subs -over her! But the high point here is the Batman TV show. It was so huge. I was only a tiny tot but I still recall how much my brother and all his friends loved it (so I loved it too).

Doug: At Marvel, not to be outdone, the House of Ideas unleashed a series of minor characters and storylines, until March... Early on, we were introduced to the Plunderer (DD #12), The Fixer and Mentallo (Strange Tales #141), the origin of Nick Fury's eye patch (Sgt. Fury #27), Maximus the Mad (FF #47), Batroc the Leaper and Sharon Carter (Tales of Suspense #75), and... Yep, and then in March, Fantastic Four #48 hit the stands (so actually January, huh?). Not only did this story finish an epic Inhumans tale (in fact, the 4 1/2 issue debut of our heroes from the Hidden Land), but it began maybe the most important trilogy of the Silver Age (is that a silly thing to say? After all, DC was still publishing done-in-ones at this time). The second half of FF #48 featured the debuts of the Silver Surfer, the Watcher, and Galactus. The story would, interestingly enough, conclude halfway through FF #50, making it in reality only the equivalent of a 2-issue tale. But who's counting? Also of note early in '66 was the change in title of Thor's mag from Journey Into Mystery to The Mighty Thor (#126), and Rick Jones spilling of the secret ID beans when he told the world that Bruce Banner was the Hulk in Tales to Astonish #77.

Karen: That's some heavy hitters there, pal. Was anything better than the FF at that point? or even years later? Between FF and Thor, Lee and Kirby were doing some incredible universe-building: the Inhumans, Galactus, the Silver Surfer, the Black Panther, the Olympian gods, the High Evolutionary, the Colonizers of Rigel...and all in the place of a couple of years. I think the closest anyone's ever come to that was the Claremont-Cockrum/Byrne -Austin X-Men.

Doug: Funny you should mention the fact that the FF was the most stupendous mag on the racks. Readers will want to check back here on Sunday for a little "who's better, who's best" brouhaha...

Doug: As spring arrived, DC offered a few substantial comics. Detective Comics #351 saw the introduction of the Cluemaster, a villain who sought the secret ID's of our heroes. In a parallel story, Aunt Harriet discovered the Batcave, and began to suspect Bruce and Dick were secretly the Caped Crusaders. Using a doctored film to show Wayne and Grayson in the presence of the Dark Knight and the Boy Wonder, not only was Aunt Harriet fooled, but the Cluemaster as well! Showcase #62 gave us the E. Nelson Bridwell/Joe Orlando creation, The Inferior Five, a team of would-be heroes in the light-hearted spoof of the Teen Titans. And in June, Batman #181 featured the first appearance of Poison Ivy. Pamela Isley was brought to you by Robert Kanigher and Sheldon Moldoff.

Karen: I think the standout there is Poison Ivy, who seemed like a more twisted Catwoman.

Doug: After all of that activity to begin the year, who could blame the Bullpen if they took a bit of a break in the spring? Yeah, I know they didn't, and what had gone down earlier would certainly have been a tough act to follow... Here you are, introduction-wise: Pluto (Thor #127), the Looter (Amazing Spider-Man #36), the John Romita Spidey try-out in Daredevil #16, the Collector in Avengers #28 (you know that's my favorite Avengers ish, if you've been hanging aorund here at all recently), and the premiere of a Golden Age reprint title, Fantasy Masterpieces. And oh yeah -- a cat named Wyatt Wingfoot showed up in FF #51.

Karen: Again - just a tremendous creative burst from Marvel. it just got better and better.

Doug: Summer at the Distinguished Competition featured the first comic book script of 14-year old Jim Shooter from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Shooter spun a yarn of the Khund invasion while introducing four new characters to Legion of Super-Heroes lore: Karate Kid, Princess Projectra, Ferro Lad, and Nemesis Kid (guess which one turned out to be a traitor in the next issue?). All of this went down in Adventure Comics #346, cover-dated for July. That same month, the feature-length Batman movie was in theaters; don't forget the Bat Shark Repellant! August's Action Comics #340 saw the bow of the Parasite, by Shooter and artist Al Plastino, and in September Saturday mornings were made all the better with the premieres of The Adventure of Superboy and The New Adventures of Superman.

Karen: I still enjoy those early Shooter Legions. Those are the only Silver Age DCs I can really handle. It's probably because they're somewhat like Marvel comics.

Doug: I will go out on a limb and say that July-dated books were among the most important to Marvel's history, and their significance. Tales of Suspense #79 featured the first Silver Age appearance of the Red Skull; yes, he'd been appearing in flashback stories in TofS as well as Golden Age reprints in the aforementioned Fantasy Masterpieces. Stan and Jack decided to bring him into the present and make him a major player in not only Cap's stories, but also in the greater Marvel Universe. Fantastic Four #52 featured the first appearance of the Black Panther, comics' first Black super-hero. Although an African king and not an American, T'Challa's debut was nonetheless an envelope-pusher; another of Stan's stories of racial injustice involved the Sons of the Serpent the next month in the Avengers #32. In Amazing Spider-Man #39 Jazzy Johnny Romita took over the art chores from Steve Ditko after the latter exited the title due in part to creative differences with Stan over the secret ID of the Green Goblin. Well Stan won out, and in this issue the Goblin was revealed to be Norman Osborn, who also learned Spidey's secret ID. In minor developments, the Gladiator debuted in DD #18 and Lancer Books began to publish reprints of Marvel Comics in trade paperback editions. Klaw became a villain for the Black Panther and we learned of his origin in FF #53. In September, to close the summer months, some biggies were published when the Goblin's origin was revealed in ASM #40, and the Howlers got an origin in Sgt. Fury #34. Maybe the biggest Marvel news, pop culture-wise, though, was the premiere of Marvel Super-Heroes on television. Using art straight from the comics, vignettes featuring Captain America, Hulk, Iron Man, Thor, and Sub-Mariner were brought our heroes to the silver screen. As most of you know, these are readily available on YouTube, but no DVD release has been made available. I've never been able to figure that one out.

Karen: I think the introduction of Black Panther was huge. Here was a black character who was not a side-kick or comic relief, but an actual super-hero, a genius, and a king to boot! The Sons of the Serpent storyline was a significant one, showing the 'realism' of the Marvel Universe, as it dealt with the civil rights issues that were facing the nation. Marvel comics just seemed more relevant. Oh, and I believe we also got introduced to Bill Foster in these issues, who would go on to become Black Goliath.

Doug: In regard to Foster, and the Living Laser (see below) -- I own the original art to Don Heck's 2/3 splash of the first in-comic appearance of the Laser (Avengers #34). It's "twice-up", meaning it's on much larger comic art paper than the now-standard 11x17. Pretty neat, as you can see some white-out from the inks, etc. Hank's pretty heroic on the page, as he's shielding Bill Foster from some blasts. Look it up -- you can see Foster's legs running off panel!

Doug: To close out the year, Barry Allen wed Iris West in November's Flash #165. He almost didn't pull it off, as Professor Zoom had imprisoned our hero -- it all worked out, and the wedding came off with Iris still not knowing Barry was the Flash. Lastly, in December Plastic Man #1 featured the DC debut of the former Quality Comics superstar. Interestingly, Plas had a try-out in House of Mystery #160 in the "Dial 'H'..." feature.

Karen: I've never gotten Plastic Man, or any of the stretchy heroes. My uncle had a few issues of Dial H for Hero which I read as a youngster and I really enjoyed the concept. What kid wouldn't like to have a magic dial that turns you into a super-hero?

Doug: And wrapping it up from Marvel, the Super-Adaptoid first menaced Cap in Tales of Suspense #82, while the Rhino crashed onto the scene in ASM #41. However, it was the very next issue of Spidey's mag that featured one of the most important character introductions when Mary Jane Watson was first shown. Of course, she'd appeared partially obstructed in previous issues, but John Romita gave us a last panel worthy of almost any surprise super-villain's last panel appearance (OK, not Galactus earlier this year). In FF Annual #4, Johnny Storm fought the Original Human Torch in a story involving the Mad Thinker. The Living Laser first fought the Avengers in Avengers #34 (see above), and Spidey tried to join that same team in ASM Annual #3.

Karen: That shot of Mary Jane has got to be one of the most famous comics shots ever. John Romita still strikes me as the best Silver Age cheesecake artist -his women are just gorgeous.