What a year in the Marvel Cinematic Universe!

Image via https://movieweb.com/marvel-studios-10-years-mcu-fandom-video/

NOTE - If the spacing in this post seems a little wonky, we had tech issues. Obviously tech issues that are not easily corrected. Hey, cut us some slack... we're rusty!

Karen: Since Doug and I are popping back into the blog-o-sphere briefly, we want to take the opportunity to discuss a few of the Marvel films that have come out recently. Since these have been out a while now, this discussion will be SPOILER-FILLED, so stop reading now if you haven't seen them yet and still want to be surprised! OK? Ready? You can't blame us now if your little hearts are broken by anything you read!

Karen: I had the luck to see Avengers: Infinity War on a huge screen at the Alamo Drafthouse in Kansas City, MO while visiting friends, and what an experience. The film is a visual powerhouse, a true spectacle -this is essentially the culmination of all of the preceding films, well, certainly the Avengers films, and it moves at a good clip. It was ideal to see it with a packed house that was completely engaged. Lots of folks applauding, laughing, gasping -but when the movie ended, it was completely silent. This was not your typical Marvel film (I think they tipped their hand somewhat at the beginning, when the opening credits rolled and there was no Marvel fanfare music). "Gut-punched" is the best way I can describe it. I have seen it again, and the impact is lessened somewhat, but it's still pretty wrenching. Of course, the original Avengers are left alive, and I am sure that in Avengers 4, they will find a way to bring the missing half of the population back -and I'm betting they pay a price to do so.

Doug: I saw A:IW on the best Saturday ever! My oldest son was able to come home for the weekend and we saw Avengers at a noon showing at the Paramount Theater in Kankakee, IL. After a late lunch, we headed to the Venue at the Horseshoe Casino in Hammond, IN to take in Rain: A Tribute to the Beatles. I don't know if any two human being should be allowed to have that much fun in one day.

Karen: Wow, I don't know if you could get much further apart in tone - at least you ended your day with the more upbeat entertainment!

Doug: Rain was great. We've seen them twice. Each time, the showstopper is "George Harrison's" rendition of While My Guitar Gently Weeps. Standing ovation each time.

Doug: We also had a pretty interactive crowd during our screening of Infinity War. Of note was the entrance of Captain America, which brought about quite a commotion. Very well done. The Guardians of the Galaxy of course stole the show whenever they hit the screen, and I thought The Spinners' Rubberband Man was a great way to announce their arrival. I agree with you, though, that the film opened on a dark note - picking right up from the conclusion of Thor: Ragnarok, but without any of that film's humor. After years of glimpses here and there, we finally got to see Thanos in all his incredibleness. He didn't disappoint. And from there it was "buckle your seatbelts", because we indeed got a tour of the galaxy that was enough to make one's head spin. I have not seen the movie a second time, but would like to.

Karen: I think the second (or third...) viewing helps to dial in the details, and also bring the characters more into focus. I guess that's where I felt a bit let down. Beyond the spectacle of it all, which admittedly is amazing, I was a little disappointed that we didn't get more character development, or key moments with some characters. I will say Thor had a fantastic story within the film. He has been so utterly devastated, but returns in the final act so heroically... although  his ultimate attack on Thanos ends in failure. Tony Stark sees his fears realized, and Robert Downey Jr does a terrific job. I really enjoyed his exchanges with Benedict Cumberbatch as the equally-arrogant Dr. Strange. But I was completely surprised by Hulk losing his nerve -and a little disappointed too. For Avengers 4, I suspect we may see him emerge as some version of "Smart Hulk," with Banner more in control. I would have liked more Cap too, but I imagine he'll get more time in the next film. It was sweet seeing the Vision/Wanda romance on the big screen, although it is suddenly in full bloom - obviously a lot has happened since Civil War. And depending on what happens in the next film, this might be all we see of that relationship.

 
Doug: I also felt like a ball had been dropped with the Hulk/Banner character(s). The aforementioned Thor: Ragnarok had finally given us a Hulk that fans of the Bronze Age Defenders have been awaiting - funny, crude, and just plain incredible. But after his sudden appearance as the apparent savior of the Asgardians' ship, that was all.

So while seeing Banner in the Hulkbuster armor was kind of cool, that he never broke out of it and unleashed a berserker rage was disappointing.

Karen: Agreed, we had a full-on, talking, smashing Hulk, almost as if a Sal Buscema drawing had come to life! All we got was that fake trailer with him running with the rest of the Avengers in Wakanda. Bummer!

Doug: I loved that the Vision had somehow gotten his hands on Nightcrawler's "image inducer" (sheesh... second time that's come up this week) and we saw him as a sort of Victor Shade. However, although he and Wanda got quite a bit of screen time, their powers felt really off. She was suddenly the strongest Avenger (until Thor arrived), and whereas I'd hoped to see the Vision we'd seen in Avengers: Age of Ultron and Captain America: Civil War, we instead got a character who spent most of the picture as a victim. So despite really, really liking the film, I'm starting to sound bitter with my Hulk comments ahead of this negativity. But I really did like it!

Karen: I hear you - I don't want to complain either, considering how much Marvel had done! It's just, well, I want more! There were so many deaths. I think the ones caused by Thanos' use of the stones will get reversed, but the earlier ones?

Hard to say. I wonder if Loki is truly dead. He essentially pulled a knife on Thanos, which didn't seem very clever of him. Given his capability with illusion, could he have fooled the Titan and removed himself so he could plot against him and  strike at the right time? Tom Hiddleston has done such a wonderful job with Loki that I'd hate to see him go out so pointlessly. Let him have a moment of sheer ruthless calculation and trickery.

Doug: Rumors are running hot and heavy in the past few weeks that Avengers 4 is going to look an awful lot like Avengers Forever. And if you recall, Captain Mar-Vell's son Genis-Vell had a large role there. Could our newly arriving Captain Marvel fit into that part? It's pretty obvious that time travel is going to have to be a component of Avengers 4, and I'm wondering if the assumed rescue of Janet van Dyne from the microverse in Ant-Man and the Wasp this summer will play into what's to come. And seriously - if somehow out of this we get to see Hawkeye in the Old West, my life will about be complete! 

Karen: Funny -my husband and I were trying to figure out how they will right things, and getting the Gauntlet back and just reversing time would be too simple. We wondered if Ant-Man's "quantum realm" or whatever it is might be the key to traveling through time -or to an alternate reality -to somehow fix things. Now, I would think the odds are unlikely we'll get Hawkeye running around with the Two-Gun Kid, but I'd love to see Kang show up!

Karen: Thanos was very well done -I never felt taken out of the movie by the CGI. Very convincing. Even though they changed his motivation, it worked. It's probably easier for a general audience to accept a genocidal desire to balance the population than a love for the physical manifestation of Death. I mentioned to my husband that he came off like a dark Jor-El -he saw a threat to his planet, and the universe, and when no one listened, rather than trying to save people or at least save his loved ones, he decides to kill half the population. He's also sort of the opposite of Cap. When Cap was on Sokovia and they were talking about blowing it up, he refused until everyone was off. Cap is unwilling to trade in lives. Thanos sees it as essential to saving other lives. I suppose you can justify anything if you try hard enough.

Doug: Thanos was pretty convincing in his logic. His logic. Isn't Cap great? I do have another minor disappointment in A:IW, and that's when Cap and Thanos went mano a mano we didn't get to hear Cap say, "I could do this all day." You mentioned above some of the great interactions between the various characters. The directors did a wonderful job of balancing all of these actors and egos and really moving the story forward in a concise manner.

And also as you said, some of the characters really played wonderfully off each other. Also worth mentioning is the chemistry between Thor and Quill, and of course between Stark and young Parker. And how about that scene where our two resident psychos - Winter Soldier and Rocket Raccoon - teamed up to blast any and all alien baddies? Loved it! 

Karen: There were so many great team-ups. Didn't you think that Stark was really missing his old, reliable, professional Avengers team-mates when he was stuck with the idiotic Guardians on Titan? The exasperation was just pouring out of him! And I still crack up thinking about this exchange: "I am Groot!" "I am Steve Rogers!"

Doug: There's probably one other major thing from Infinity War that bears discussion, and that would be the appearance of the Red Skull. What did you think of that? I know for my son and I it was literally jaw-dropping. For me, it fit perfectly and was a nicely wrapped surprise. I will also say that I was able to see Infinity War spoiler-free. Even the trailers and pre-release publicity kept everything to the guessing/anticipation stage.

Karen: At first when I saw that hooded figure I thought, "Wow, are they going to bring in Mistress Death?" But honestly, the Red Skull was just as good -maybe better, because it was so cool to discover what had become of him. And I agree about seeing it spoiler-free: I have to commend my fellow fans, because it seemed like no one was letting anything out this time. It was wonderful to experience this film cold, basically.

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Doug: We're going to interrupt today's post for an intermission. For those among us of a certain age - and if you are, you know what I mean - there was one aspect of Avengers: Infinity War that was especially affecting. Longtime commenter and resident cartoonist PF Gavigan contacted us ahead of our return and offered to do a strip specifically for today's post. We are thrilled to display it below, and then we'll be back to our MCU thoughts.

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Karen: I'm really excited about the upcoming Ant-Man and the Wasp movie -it will be like a refreshing, light breeze after this heavy affair. And it was such a thrill to see Laurence Fishburne as Bill Foster in the trailer, directly referencing being Goliath! I'm assuming the film takes place before Infinity War. But I wonder if the end credits scenes may lead us into Avengers 4.

Doug: Which makes me wonder... if there's a time travel element to Avengers 4, are we going to find out that the Avengers Initiative was not a project invented upon Thor's arrival, as Nick Fury has suggested? Sure seems like there were heroes running around before Iron Man - three size-changers that we now know of, and that Easter egg with the Original Human Torch has been on my back burner since first seeing Captain America: The First Avenger.

Karen: Well, I've kind of wondered if it was something Nick Fury, Peggy Carter, and Howard Stark cooked up, since he told Tony about it at the end of Iron Man. But who knows -was there a proto-Avengers team? Did Hank Pym know Carol Danvers?

Doug: If this Ant-Man film is anything like its predecessor, we're in for a light-hearted, popcorn movie treat. And I think I really appreciate that about Marvel, as compared to their Distinguished Competition. Marvel gets it - they know that there were comics before and after the Dark Ages of the late 1980s-early 2000s. DC seems to have forgotten that they were the light-hearted company through the 1940s-mid-1980s. It's a shame; hopefully they find their identity a bit with the upcoming Shazam! film.

Karen: Of course, Black Panther was also a huge hit for Marvel, and is already out on blu-ray/DVD. I still can't get over how fast these movies are available to stream/buy after they hit the theaters. This was also a spectacular-looking film - I have to say the movie version of Wakanda was far grander than any version I recall from the comics. It was so perfectly envisioned -and it was cool to see it in Infinity War again. Panther had one of the best casts of any Marvel movie, and a very strong story. Chadwick Boseman has completely won me over as T'Challa.

Doug: I made the trek to Indiana the Thursday before Veterans' Day to see Thor: Ragnarok with my sons and we were also able to see BP together. We had a great time at both films. Yes - the spectacle of Black Panther was incredible. I was pleasantly surprised that M'Baka the Man-Ape was in the film and how well he was portrayed. Erik Killmonger raised some important philosophical issues, giving us that Dr. King/Malcolm X dichotomy. I have read numerous comments online and have had some meaningful conversations with some of my students of color after this film came out. In addition to being a grand superhero film, Marvel has opened some dialogue that (unfortunately) still needs to take place.

Karen: The impact of Black Panther has been amazing to see. I have to admit I was not prepared for just how big it would be. How many young people will see this and it will be their Star Wars - that movie that forever changed everything for them? Who knows what crop of film-makers or writers or artists or even scientists and engineers may spring up after being inspired by this movie? It might sound like hyperbole, but films and TV shows can really affect people.

Doug: You know, we could go on and on here - we haven't really touched Guardians of the Galaxy, volume 2. And shoot - even though not an MCU film, I was going to bring up War for the Planet of the Apes! But maybe we'll just see what direction this takes in the comments - that's right, now it's reader's write time!

Who's the Worst... Amazing Doohickey?

Martinex1: Deus ex Machina anybody?   It was recently mentioned that characters that can change reality at will were annoying.   How about the all-powerful objects?   What gadgets made you gag?   What devices divide you?   What utensils make you tense?  We've got Ultimate Nullifiers, Nega-Bands, Cosmic Cubes, Gauntlets, Lanterns, Rings, Keys, and Crowns.   What turns your comic enjoyment upside down?

Comic Events When They Actually Meant Something!

Karen: I have to 'fess up -originally this post was going to be a piece of shameless self-promotion. It was going to be a 'Bronze Age Babies Bulletin' that plugged the new (and super-cool) Back Issue! # 82 featuring Bronze Age Events, on sale soon from Twomorrows Publications in print and digital format (you can get it here). In this issue, I get to discuss the glory of the Avengers-Defenders War (or Clash, if you prefer) with such greats as Roy Thomas, Sal Buscema, and most of all, Stainless Steve Englehart! It is always a blast to have the chance to interview folks who had such a tremendous impact on my youth. As the theme of the issue is events, there are also articles on the great JLA/JSA  team-ups, Crisis on Infinite Earths, Secret Wars, the Infinity Gauntlet, and more.

Karen: But thinking about all those great old Bronze Age comic events made me want to do more than just a plug for the issue. It made me want to discuss what made events so much more special and exciting back in those days. It seems like now, all we have are events. Certainly the Big Two shape their entire comics line around a major event (or two) that typically lasts the entire year, and this happens every year, and has for some time now. The Event unfolds in its own book, touches most of the other titles in the line, and also gives birth to ancillary titles. Look at  Civil War - according to an article on IGN, it encompassed 93 individual comics. 93! This wasn't an event, it was a major financial commitment.

Avengerin' and Defenderin' cover by John Byrne

Karen: It seems to me there are a couple of things that really distinguish the events of old from today's "mega-events." One is that events used to actually feel significant. It's like that saying -"when everyone's special, no one's special." The same could be said for comic events. They used to be something that happened occasionally, and in a more organic way. 

Karen: I know when I worked on my article on the Avengers-Defenders War, I recalled that at the time the books came out, it felt really important -a cross-over like that, between two team titles, was a real first. Also, like the JLA/JSA extravaganzas, it  was a summer event, unfolding over the school vacation months of 1973, which lent it even more of a special air. In fact, writer Steve Englehart wanted to do something special for that summer, since Marvel wasn't producing any annuals that year. So as a young reader, it was a great treat while you were on school break -assuming you could find all the issues on the newstand!

Karen: The other thing that makes the earliest events stand out is that they were put together with a sense of sincerity -there was a desire to do something extra-special, something that would thrill the fans, something that would be fun. Certainly that was the case with the JLA/JSA meet-ups each year. Those annual events were eagerly awaited by comics fans each year, initially featuring just the two teams, later expanding to sometimes include other groups like the Legion of Super-Heroes, the Freedom Fighters, the Seven Soldiers of Victory - hey, the more the merrier! These issues really gave fans some bang for their buck -or 15 cents, whatever the case might be. Likewise, the Avengers-Defenders War took Marvel's two biggest teams at the time and pitted them against each other in one-on-one (or two-on-one) match ups, just because it would be a hoot. There really wasn't an ulterior motive at work. Similarly, the Marvel annuals, while hit or miss, sometimes fell into this category as well, providing fun and sometimes important events, like Fantastic Four Annual #6, with a battle against Annihilus and the birth of Franklin Richards; or the one-two combo of Avengers Annual #7 and Marvel Two-In-One Annual #2, with the huge smack-down of the Avengers, Captain Marvel, Warlock, The Thing, and Spider-Man versus Thanos. Now those were events -and they only lasted an issue or two!

 Karen: We can see the seeds of today's bloated mega-events in the later Bronze Age events. Crisis on Infinite Earths was not only a 12 issue series but it crossed-over to numerous titles (don't forget the red skies!), and of course, had a massive (some might even say devastating) impact on the entire DC line. Secret Wars had less of an impact on titles and characters -the black Spider-Man costume which later became Venom was probably the most lasting effect -but of course, the mini-series genesis was in a toy tie-in, not exactly the most noble of purposes. At this point, the events became bigger and also began to serve purposes other than just being a cool thing to do for the fans. The companies soon realized that the fans would dutifully buy up all the issues connected to the event, and before long, we were plagued with things like The Mutant Massacre and Invasion! With few exceptions, the event became more about money and less about someone coming up with a neat story idea.

Karen: And that's how we got where we are today, with the perma-event situation. Since I'm no longer a regular comics reader, I don't feel the pain like I once did, but I still sympathize with those who try to keep up with it all. I can't help but think that the impact of these events is far less when something huge and universe-shattering occurs every single year. Me, I still get a thrill when I see the Avengers and Defenders go at it, or Spider-Man working up his nerve to face Thanos. And I didn't have to buy 32 issues to understand the whole story.

Avengers: Age of Ultron -- FULLY SPOILED!!

NOTE: If you have not seen the film and want to stay clean on all the details, you'd best exit these premises now. Because what we do around here after a week's courtesy is let it all hang out!

Doug: Today Karen and I will lead off with our own thoughts on the latest installment in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and then we fully expect the comments section to fill up with everyone else's opinions as well. Should be fun! To kick it off, we'll let you hack our own personal email accounts, as we discussed the film this past Monday and beyond. I viewed a 4:00 pm showing on May 4, and we began hashing out the details a few hours afterward. Here goes, edited for conversational purposes --

Doug: Wow. I'll start with that.

Doug: I'm not sure how anyone is thinking Age of Ultron was not as good as the first one. First off, there was no set up in this one, no characters-meeting-each-other as in the first. Secondly, there's now an assumption on the part of the film makers that those coming to these things have seen the previous pictures. So no backstory on Baron Strucker or the Maximoff twins. It was assumed that everyone knows what the scepter is, and has a working knowledge of the Infinity Stones. All of that together allowed the creators to move characterization forward with no obligations.

Doug: I thought Hawkeye was obviously very improved from the first film, even though he's not "our" Hawkeye. It was nice that his wife (totally did not see that one coming) even called him that. We got more on the Black Widow - the scene where she tells Banner about the final initiation to become a Russian assassin was chilling. Banner himself was well-played.

Karen: I actually liked Hawkeye this time around, although I'm not all that fond of Jeremy Renner. Hawkeye is not much like the comic version, but at least he had personality. He was obviously the 'window' character or normal guy. I wondered if he might get killed off after we saw his family.

Doug: I know -- I was waiting for some carnage if and when Ultron located our hiding heroes. And Captain America could not be better. The stunts are incredible, and Chris Evans nails his fighting will. Perfect. Just perfect. Likewise, Robert Downey continues to excel as Iron Man. Really, I have no complaints about the casting. I thought it was a great touch that Wanda and Pietro spoke with Eastern European accents. But Cap won the day in this film as the Hulk had in the first one.

Karen: I agree with you about Cap -it's hard to believe I ever had doubts that Chris Evans could play this role. He embodies it so well. He carries the authority, the seriousness, the play-calling. Yet he also has humor. He and Downey work well together. I like that Cap's vision (as I read it) was that essentially, his fears came true, and he's still here -lonely maybe, but here. And by seeing Stark's vision -his fear of another invasion, his feeling that he should be doing something to protect the world, and his friends, we have reason to understand his behavior. He's carrying an awful lot of weight on his shoulders. As was pointed out in the film, he doesn't have to carry it alone. I'm not sure he really gets it though. I was surprised how the Big Three were all buddy-buddy again at the end. Stark was really responsible for everything, via Ultron. I wonder if this will come up again, perhaps in Civil War?

Doug: If I have a criticism, it's that the reaction to Stark and his machinations was odd. At first we get Banner trying to talk him out of it, then we get Thor grabbing him by the throat, then a little general disgust from the team. But you're right - by the end it seems like "Oh well, all's well that ends well!" And... can't remember which character, but someone had a great line about the dichotomy in Stark's personality.

Karen: Was it Wanda's comment about Ultron not knowing the difference between saving the world and destroying it, and where did that come from (Stark)?

Doug: That's it! I thought that whole point was a nice way to tie a bow on what began as Stark's mission in the first Iron Man picture and that the fall-out was still being felt here in what is probably a few years later.

Karen: I would have liked to have seen Hulk interact with his team-mates more (other than Widow). Also, he never spoke at all. Dang!

Doug: Yes, I've grown a little impatient with the movie Hulk being all-berserker, all-the-time. I miss the Bronze Age Hulk. What did you think of the big Hulk-Hulkbuster battle, when the under-construction building came tumbling down? Two things immediately crossed my mind: a) 9-11 is still a raw nerve, and that scene was way too close, as was some of the imagery in Man of Steel, and b) speaking of Man of Steel, I thought it was a bit of a dig at that film when Iron Man checked his bio-sensors to determine that there were no humans in that structure before he carried out his plot. Touche`, DC!

Karen: I thought that through-out the film, it was stressed that the Avengers were trying to protect and save people, and while I think this is exactly what super-heroes should be doing, I wondered if some of this was a dig at Man of Steel. You're not the first person to mention 9-11 but honestly, I didn't think about that while watching it -I just thought that it seemed highly unlikely that a building coming down, even an unoccupied one, wouldn't cause deaths, in a busy city block. But, after seeing it twice, it's clear that Iron Man was trying to get Hulk out of the city -he just wouldn't cooperate. I have to say, this sequence did have a couple of great laughs. The rapid-fire punching and "go to sleep go to sleep go to sleep" was hilarious, as was the part where Iron Man whacks Hulk with the elevator and Hulk then spits out a tooth and gives Iron Man an angry look, which causes Stark to meekly say, "I'm sorry."

Doug: Yes, those were great moments. For the Hulk, that was about it, though, as he was not the major player at the end of the film that I'd wondered if he'd be. But there's just no way Ultron would have stood that abuse for very long, so the Hulk was conveniently away from the main fracas.

Doug: The Vision -- wow. Give me more. Please.

Karen: Is it possible that Marvel has given Adam Warlock's 'role' to the Vision? The Vision basically comes out of a "cocoon," has an infinity gem on his forehead, and when asked, proclaims that he is on the side of life, very much as Warlock was a champion of life.  So with the Vision around, what point would there be in introducing Warlock now -or at least, the version of Warlock that we all know? Why have two characters that seem to serve the same narrative purpose?

Karen: That said, I loved the Vision, was immensely pleased with what they did with him, and thought Paul Bettany did a fantastic job. The conversation between he and Ultron at the very end -"I think you missed that" - was just perfect.

Doug: Two things I would suggest in favor of Warlock: if the Vision is going to be a stand-in, then why have we seen the so-obvious-it's Warlock's-cocoon in two scenes with the Collector? Also, rumors were running rampant that they were going to make Warlock be Peter Quill's long lost father. Being stuck in a cocoon would certainly qualify one for being "long lost". Just my thoughts.

Karen: I know, they might still have Warlock. But the cocoon in GotG was never confirmed as Warlock's, and the director of GotG II (James Gunn, same guy who directed the first one) has said Warlock will not be in it , although that could be misdirection. However, it seems unlikely that they would have two guys who are artificially constructed men running around with infinity gems on their heads. Unless you make Warlock just an alien, and remove the soul gem from his head. But if they start tampering with his origin too much, then is he really Warlock? Another reason I think this Vision is "more" than just our old android: he lifted Thor's hammer! Come on! He must be meant for great things -like facing Thanos perhaps?

Doug: I thought the contest to lift Mjolnir was a great way to tie the film together. Did you notice Thor's face when Cap got it to ever-so-slightly budge? And I really liked the banter between Thor and the Vision on the weight distribution of the hammer. Classic stuff.

Karen: The hammer lifting challenge was a nice teambuilding moment. Of all of them, Cap is the only one who should be able to lift it (and did in the comics). I liked that shot of Thor and Vision standing on the balcony speaking - the two of them are so different from the rest of the team. With the gem, this Vision is probably far more powerful than the comic version, putting him on Thor's level or even greater, I think.

Doug: Additionally, we are missing "one for the thumb", so to speak. Am I missing an Infinity Gem, because I think I am:

Tesseract

Gem from the scepter, now possessed by the Vision

Aether

The stone from GotG

Doug: Doesn't that leave one more? All of that is not to say that you have a bad argument, and our readers may like that theory.

Karen: Your list is correct as I recall. I'm not sure how many gems they plan to have in the films. In the comics there were six. I believe the Collector names them all in GotG but I'd have to go back and watch that to be sure. But so far I think we have only seen four, and Thor sees four in his vision. Actually, it seems sort of odd that Thanos gave Loki that scepter that had a gem in it. Didn't he know the gem was there? Why give it away? I guess he expected Loki to win and he would get the scepter (and stone) back.

Doug: Ultron was certainly different than I'd anticipated, but it worked for me after just a little while. I liked his size and ruthlessness. His ability to fly was an added wrinkle of sinister proportions. I thought his plan was a good one. Hey, did you think it might end in the scene from Avengers #159 when Thor, Wonder Man, Iron Man, and the Vision catch the falling city that Graviton had lifted? I wasn't disappointed in this outcome, but I was wondering.

Karen: I had some difficulty with Spader's portrayal -a little too goofy for me at times. Overall it was quite good but there were times I was thinking of Spader and not Ultron. I do wish they had used HB's suggestion of having Stark's personality integrated into Ultron. I did like when he freaked out about Klaw saying "You're one of Stark's" - a little close to the bone.

Doug: It took me awhile to get used to the fact that Ultron has a malleable mouth. That he could make facial expressions seemed weird.

Karen: Yes, that kind of threw me too -it looked cartoonish at times. I did wonder if the way he looked when he first met the twins was a call-out to his first appearance as "The Crimson Cowl" -he was draped with that reddish scarf or whatever it was. That scene really seemed odd -there was no set up for it, the twins just show up in the church. I felt that there had been some heavy editing there for sure, and in a few other spots. We know that about an hour was chopped out, and I guess Thor's visions were also cut back heavily -I heard an interview with Joss Whedon who said that originally Thor contacted the Norns but they had to delete almost all of that.

Doug: Apparently Loki was to have been in that scene, but Heimdall ended up standing in -- they couldn't get Tom Hiddleston when they needed him for filming but Idris Elba was available (or some such thing). I, too, noticed the Crimson Cowl reference, which was also somewhat appropriate as it occurred just after Ultron usurped the JARVIS software -- remember, Jarvis was a dupe for Ultron in the mad robot's first appearance!

Doug: The church scene overall seemed more appropriate for a first look at Dr. Doom than it did for Ultron.

Karen: Biggest geeky moment for me was seeing Thor, Vision, and Iron Man all blast Ultron together. That was just so comic booky! 

Doug: Awesome to see the Helicarrier back. Fury had a larger role -- he made a nice comeback as well.

Karen: Where the heck was Fury hiding a helicarrier? It was fun seeing War Machine in action there but I would've liked to see Falcon too.

Doug: I also thought the Falcon would be in that scene. And I guess I was surprised that we didn't get even a brief look or mention of the Black Panther. What did you think of the scene with Klaw? I'll be honest -- the sound in the theater I attended isn't always all that great and I had a difficult time picking up all of the dialogue in that part of the film.

Karen: What did you think of Quicksilver dying? I guess they have more than enough characters. But it didn't have much emotional impact for me.

Doug: I was surprised -- kept waiting for him to get up. Before that, I assumed he'd zip by and display a handful of bullets to Hawkeye. I've read that every draft of the script had him dying at the end... however, they did shoot an alternate ending where he survives in order to "throw people off" so that there'd be no leaks about that aspect of the film. I didn't feel like we got to know him enough that I'd care. Did you catch the split second when Wanda and the Vision gazed into one another's eyes?

Karen: When the Vision swoops down and saves Wanda? That was thrilling! Although none of the actors will discuss it, it seems as though they are headed towards some sort of relationship for those two, which should be interesting. I wonder what people will make of it.

Doug: Personally, I agree with Maria Hill -- "she's weird". So I'm thinking it could actually be less of a problem in the films than it ever was in the comics! Seriously, I just couldn't warm to either Wanda or Pietro. Their transformation from bad to good was way too quick. But then, give that an hour's worth of film was allegedly cut could have something to do with that. Wonder if there will be a director's cut?

Doug: So that being said, I did think there were some cool "Kooky Quartet" moments, although I don't believe the four of them were ever actually together in one scene. Hawkeye's pep talk to Wanda was inspiring, but again -- it only works coming from the MCU Clint. "Our" guy would have been looking down her blouse!

  
Karen:Yes, it would've been nice to see the Kooky Quartet all together for one scene. That felt like a missed opportunity to me. 
 
Doug: That Marvel has managed to weave together this universe is amazing. So many characters from so many films, and even with a spoken nod or a few minutes of screen time, it really begins to feel like the comic books.

Karen: While I enjoy that aspect of it -the complex universe -I do start to have concerns that the films are becoming over-stuffed, and perhaps having to spend too much time setting up future films. Being a comics fan I have no real trouble following who's who and such but I wonder if it becomes overly complicated for a general audience? I know I always felt completely lost at Harry Potter films, for example.

Doug: I am so excited to see this again, and am looking forward to Civil War (I sort of like the depowered "New Avengers"). Although in answer to your concern, today (Thursday, 7 May 2015) it was announced that Civil War will included everyone in the MCU (including the cast from Winter Soldier) except Thor and the Hulk. Spider-Man is supposed to appear, but I don't believe in a major role. That's a whole lot of heroes and baddies!

Karen: Basically, Captain America: Civil War will be another Avengers film! What did you think of the new Avengers line-up at the end? Although I will miss Hulk and Iron Man (and Thor, but I consider him "off on assignment"), I kind of like the changes. It's just like the way the line ups would change every so often in the comic. This line-up still has some power too -Vision is up there, and I would say Wanda is too, based on what she did versus Ultron. Her powers actually reminded me more of the early Phoenix (pre-Dark Phoenix). We also have War Machine. It was great to see Falcon there too. By the time the next Avengers film rolls around, we might also have Spider-Man, the Panther, and Capt. Marvel!

Doug: Well, before the Infinity Gauntlet storyline is over I think we'll see something akin to the Korvac Saga where it's all comers versus the mad Titan. As I said several months ago, I cannot wait for a scene with Rocket Raccoon, Groot, and the Hulk! But in answer to your question, I did like the new line-up. And doggone it if Cap didn't almost say "Avengers Assemble!" But not quite... But I still smiled.